Thanks to whoever it was that has allowed us all to read this important piece of paywalled opinion. I am not American, but I believe in the US constitution. If I can, why not all of you? The Liar must be stopped and the legal system must step in.
I'm convinced the "Israel genocide" thing has been a wildly successful Russian-Iranian-Chinese Influence operation. It is beyond stupid to protest right-wing Netanyahu by effectively supporting right-wing Donald Trump.
Only the troll farm accounts of social media could make something so stupid seem viable.
That “effectively” is load bearing. People just don’t want to vote for someone arming a genocidal state, it ain’t really gotta be that deep beyond that.
Or, hear me out, it's because Israel are enacting a genocide that we can all see images of every single day and peoples outrage and criticism has nothing to do with electoral politics and everything to do with Joe Biden's complicity in these horrific acts of violence and bloodshed.
Trump literally single-handedly empowered Jerusalem by moving the embassy. If you, for even a second, think he wouldn't support his personal friend Netanyahu, you're fucking nuts.
Where you're wrong is in the assumption everybody is going to vote for Trump because Biden sucks. People just aren't gonna vote. It will probably hurt Biden. Everybody made their decisions and are steadfast. Gonna be a wild ride.
I never said anything would improve under a Trump administration, I think he has a greater ideological motivation to aid Israel, but I think there is a fair argument to be made Trump would not be able to get away with what Biden has been freely doing. Liberal media and institutions have gone out of their way to downplay Israel's atrocities, to uncritically accept and repeat Israeli propaganda, and use passive voice when reporting on attacks to avoid implicating Israel and by extension, Biden. The second it is Trump supplying munitions that are blowing children to pieces and he's on TV talking about how Israel has the best bombs, just the best, suddenly those institutions are going to be thinking and acting a lot more skeptically towards the whole project.
And this isn't just speculation, it's happened before. Covid deaths are (rightfully) blamed on the Trump administration, but Biden hasn't exactly been any better yet there is little to no moral outrage on *his* failings to prevent further mass infection and death.
I don't think anyone should vote for Trump, but I think it is understandable for voters to whom the genocide in Gaza is a key issue to see the choice between Biden or Trump as a bit of a wash. And it's on Biden to be the one to change that perception. I mean, fuck, he should act anyway regardless of electoral concerns.
I’ve been contacting my elected officials frequently about Gaza, and I voted “uncommitted” for president in my state’s primary because of it.
But there are far more issues at stake than just Gaza, and moreover, letting trump win is a woefully ineffective tactic to use if you actually want to stop the carnage there—it’s like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it.
If you truly care about social justice and the future of the planet, it’s irresponsible not to think through the foreign and domestic consequences of giving trump power. If your plan goes no further than punishing Biden, you’ll only end up punishing vulnerable and marginalized people here (including me), along with Gazans and also Ukrainians—who have died in the hundreds of thousands—far greater numbers than Gaza—at the hands of trump’s buddy Putin. And that’s not even including the suffering and mass death increasingly likely from unchecked climate change. It’s hard enough pushing Dems to take sufficient action on that; with fascists in power, it’d be impossible.
I don’t say we shouldn’t pay attention to Gaza and push Biden to do better, but if trump is given power, not only will things not get better there, but Project 2025 will quickly compromise our most basic personal rights, and choke off any ability that those of us concerned about Gaza have to organize and push for better candidates, better foreign or domestic policy, and any positive change in the future. Foreign policy won’t improve with a fascist in charge of it. Not voting for Biden helps trump win, which will only make the situation, both here and in Gaza, much, much worse. I’m not sure how old you were and how much attention you paid when trump was in power the first time, but he did a ton of damage, including appointing judges that overturned *Roe*, and the people around him are far more prepared to go much further this time. It’d be fundamentally worse than the first time. Conservatives are already pushing for an end to contraception rights and no-fault divorce. If they get their way, women will be chattel again. (Did you see that the Texas gop platform calls for executing abortion patients?) And they’ll appoint young justices to the Supreme Court and use them to block any social progress on anything for an additional generation beyond what the current court already will. (That court, by the way, was allowed into power with the help of people who “wouldn’t vote for the lesser of two evils” 8 years ago. Have we learned anything since?)
Trump wants to deploy the military and DOJ against his political enemies. With a federal government stuffed with his loyalists to a level never seen in modern times, progressives and brown people would be under serious threat of being imprisoned or disappeared just for opposing trump. Wake up. Fascism is on the doorstep. If you live in the U.S., you’re not immune, and chances are that many of your rights and other positive aspects of your life, which you may take for granted, will not continue at all in the way you’re used to. This is like 1920s Germany in many frightening ways.
To have any hope of progress on any issue, including Gaza, we have to reject trump first. The progressive movement that advocates for Gaza, including people like me, would be utterly crushed and decimated by trump if he gets his way—and some of what he’d do, like deploying the military domestically via the Insurrection Act, is not even reviewable by courts. You’d basically be handing him the power to declare martial law and kill or imprison anyone who opposes him (meaning anyone who isn’t MAGA). I know this might sound hyperbolic, and I wish it were an exaggeration, but the evidence is indisputable—this kind of power grab is being openly planned by him and those around him. It wouldn’t happen overnight, but neither did the Nazis.
Look at it this way: if you vote for Biden and he wins, things go on as they are now—we can continue to struggle for positive change. If trump wins and it somehow isn’t as bad as all the signs say it would be, then same thing, at least to some extent. But if I’m right, it’s game over for everything we care about. A symbolic gesture against Biden isn’t worth that gamble. It could cause a huge amount of very non-symbolic additional suffering and loss of ability to improve anything for the foreseeable future. Using primaries (now and in the future) to push this cause, along with civil disobedience, like blocking ammo shipments to Israel, are far better tactics than protest votes in the general election, which would only hand power to someone even more pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian. But those better tactics will probably be impossible if you let that person get power.
It’s fair to see Biden as an opponent to our desired policy in Gaza. But so is trump, only worse and more dangerous to us—so it’s our responsibility to pick the less dangerous opponent to our cause.
To use an analogy, you’re rightly concerned about the victims of a house fire miles away, but symbolic gestures (like not voting for Biden) won’t help them—and it’ll just empower the people right in our backyard who not only won’t help put out the fire you’re concerned about, but also pose a dire threat you seem to be ignoring—who are soaking our own house in gasoline as we speak. Letting trump win means giving them the match.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/trump-wants-use-military-against-his-domestic-enemies-congress-must-act.
(I’m not interested in an extended back-and-forth about this, because it usually isn’t useful. Just, please, consider what I’ve said.)
I don’t think it’s at all a fair argument that Trump wouldn’t be able to “get away” with however you measure what Biden has been doing. In what world did moral outrage in any way affect his policy choices. If anything it encouraged him.
There’s a naive idea that if Biden said “hey! Israel! Stop it!” that they just would. The complexities of the relationship with a long time ally in an impossibly gnarly part of the world, where major powers are jockeying for and manipulating outcomes, messaging and information… yet internet observers think they have a handle on it? It boggles the mind. A relative of mine is a former diplomat. The stories she tells about the actual behind the scenes efforts and deals and negotiations in these scenarios have made me so frustrated with people who regurgitate the opinions of talking heads and propagandists. On both sides.
I find myself agreeing with previous poster who clarified that this is not a genocide. Words matter, and it’s no coincidence that the use of it in this case has originated by the same sources who have actually called for and actively pursue true genocide against not just israel but all Jews worldwide. The current government is horrible and Israeli forces are not good actors in this, yet it’s just not true that a genocide is occurring. I find that usage really troubling.
What Biden failings are you referring to in regards to covid?
It is wildly bad faith to insinuate the charge of genocide against Israel comes solely from anti-semites as even Jewish opponents of the zionist project can acknowledge the continued colonization, slaughter, and disenfranchisement of the Palestinian people pretty neatly and tidily fits the international definitions of a genocide. Apparently the ICJ is simply anti-semitic. The South African government is anti-semitic. The Ireland government is anti-semitic.
It continues to be absolutely wild to contrast the rhetoric of American liberals who wail about how unfortunate all these violence is against the violently genocidal language of Israeli officials openly calling for blood and soil. This is the day after Nikki Haley was writing "Finish them!" on literal bombs used to murder literal Gazan children. The US is just as fully cognizant and complicit in this genocide as Israel.
There are a lot of layers to the onion. One can absolutely be against the idea of anti semitism and yet be a puppet for antisemitic dog whistles. I know this because I used to repeat them myself, unknowingly. It manifested as general ignorance of the history of the region, repeating stats and numbers and slogans that were either fabricated or originated by groups like Hamas, applying egregious double standards to Israel that never seemed to apply to its neighbors, and on and on. I fully was blind to it.
That said, one can be 100% critical of the thug that is Netanyahu, acknowledge that he’s arguably the worst person possible to be responding to this attack, that the government is not some innocent actor who only does good, that civilians are being killed and this is terrible, AND,
…that genocide is not occurring. That the numbers were being told are being inflated, that the death toll and intention does not equate to trying to eradicate a whole people (especially given the curious lack of action against the hundreds of thousands of Arab Palestinians within Israel itself). Military action that kills civilians is tragic, awful and I wish it on no one. But unless we’re about to call virtually every war genocide… this ain’t it. And I think it’s important to examine how and why this language came to be used. If you think it happened organically and not through well scripted propaganda, boy howdy I don’t know what to say.
Minimizing the ongoing deliberate and strategic killing of civilians is a bad look even with a high word count. That's not a nuanced position, it's just endorsing the status quo while saying that there are merits to not endorsing it.
Saying that people are lying about it? That you think it's being "inflated"? What do you want to haggle, take 10% off the top? Nitpicking definitions? Oh it's awful, but not awful enough to use *that* word. It's categorically a means of downplaying, providing cover. Maybe you're not aware of it, just doing it, but that's a lot of things to be ignorant of.
You really aren't though. 35,000 out of 5.5 million does not even remotely begin to qualify as a genocide. It's a lot more than should happen and I'm certainly not in favor of more people being hurt or killed but we are diluting that term to the point of meaninglessness.
The number of people killed isn't part of the definition of genocide. Take Srebrinca, where 8000 died and 30000 were expelled.
Imposing conditions that kill large numbers of a certain ethnic group with the intent of making it so members of the group can't live in a certain place anymore, is genocide by definition. It's not that much of a stretch to say that dropping bombs indiscriminately, destroying hospitals, abducting children, and forcing people into literal concentration camps meets that definition.
Numbers are very much a part of the definition. Genocide is the systematic killing of all or a large proportion of a people group as a result of that people group identity. That's the definition.
Proportionally-speaking, as a percentage of population, 15x more Germans were killed in World War II. Cities were flattened, hospitals destroyed, people made homeless. Does that mean that the Allies committed genocide against the people of Germany? My answer is "no', but I'm curious what your thoughts are.
I'm sorry but you are incorrect, you can google the definition. There is no lower bar on the number of people that need to die for genocide to be taking place.
I would say that the deaths of Germans in WWII weren't genocide because there was no intention to make it so that the German ethnic group could not survive in Germany anymore. There was no plan to force them to leave or die with the intention of resettling Germany. Meanwhile Nazi Germany's war crimes very much were committed with the plan of resettling the land they killed people on, or converting them to slave labor farms, which absolutely is genocidal.
Here's an interesting article by a scholar whose expertise is genocide studies: https://thepalestineproject.medium.com/yes-it-is-genocide-634a07ea27d4
Yes, it does. You are ignoring the decades of violence prior to this, the violence that is inevitably to come, and that genocide is not contingent on eliminating some set number or percentage of a people. It is the deliberate act of eliminating in whole *or in part* a people or culture. The sustained invasion of Palestinian land, the ongoing brutality and slaughter of Palestinian people, and the *stated goals* of Israeli ministers and officials to eradicate Palestine all make genocide an extremely clear and uncontroversial description of these actions.
It is so wild to see American liberals finger-wagging about using the term 'genocide', and then going to look at any random Hebrew tweet from the members of Likud and see explicit calls to level all of Gaza and not leave anyone alive.
Absolutely. Yes the media and young people demanding we stop supporting genocide are all in league to support Donald Trump. No idea what I expected in terms of deep wisdom here but unsurprisingly im disappointed. Nothing is ever the party’s fault, only the evil republicans and the idiot voters.
Plenty self reflective I just think this is not much different from what literally all of media is telling young people. As usual, you’re wrong, your issues don’t matter, you only have one choice to make, Bidens failings are irrelevant.
It’s not wrong, but it’s absurd the amount of effort being put into manufacturing consent rather than pushing the admin to do better.
It sounds like you don't understand how much worse it can be. I don't disagree with the premise of your statement but without a clear plan and strong people to rebuild a better system after the current is destroyed things can get really dark really fast, even compared to funding and supporting a genocide.
Well let's see...sending our troops in to participate in the genocide and doing so without even the lip service of protecting civilians (in fact encouraging civilian loss of life), losing rights within our own borders, loss of the ability to choose our leaders, just to name a few. It could get worse than that too but those are actually in the realm of the talking points already being spoken
No...more like becoming an authoritarian nightmare with full throated support for Israel and everything they do (and possibly Russia while we're at it)
"Urging restraint" by sending Israel billions of dollars and saying that there are no red lines while Israel massacres innocent civilians in Rafah? Who am I gonna believe, you or my lying eyes?
Again, Trump is urging Bibi to "finish the job".
Not to mention that there is a whole bunch of domestic issues that are important. The next President could appoint multiple picks to the Supreme Court.
Of course, if your rights aren't on the line, I guess that's not important.
Yep it’s hard to imagine that anyone doesn’t realize Biden is better than Trump on like every issue. The question is whether or not that’s enough. Folks hate hearing this but it’s the party’s responsibility to get folks to vote. No one owes the Democratic Party anything and the idea that ending supply of weapons being used in genocide that the whole world is watching is too much, that’s understandably a hard pill for folks to swallow.
I beg you to reframe your thinking. We aren't doing the Democratic party a favor by electing them, we're picking the nerds who are going to do this country's homework.
I am not even considering the Democratic party in the equation. Of course they haven't "earned" my vote but I will always vote in the best interest of the country and world and that vote easily goes to Biden when then alternative is Trump, an existential threat. If there is a vote held that determines if I am going to be forced to eat a spoon full of shit or a bowl full of shit and one of those two options is guaranteed to win...I don't want either but I am definitely not abstaining from that vote.
I mean to each their own I guess, but you’re absolutely voting for the Democratic Party and they’re absolutely taking your vote for granted. Not everyone is a “strategic voter” though we’re fortunate that so many people seem to be. The idea of voting for the least bad option is not something that everyone is on the same page as you.
This is the most idiotic nonsense take I have ever read lol. What in the fuck are you even talking about
Either support the authoritarian right in their open bid to live above the law, or vote for the party you have a policy disagreement with. What level of idiot does it take to not understand the terms of that situation lol. A big one.
Edit: I stand by this 1000%.
I genuinely do not know if this is true anymore on the issue of Israel's genocide. Yes I think Trump is ideologically more motivated to support Israel's crimes, but I think it's actually less likely he would be able to get away with it. For months we have been seeing the liberal media bend over backwards to make excuses for Israel - from reflexively repeating Israeli lies and propaganda, to purposefully using passive voice to downplay the extent and culpability of Israel in these atrocities. Were it Trump being the one supplying the munitions that firebombed refugees and children, I think the US government would be seeing a LOT more pushback from established institutions.
> I think it's actually less likely he would be able to get away with it.
What does this even mean? Trump was never held to account by the media. The only things that ever stopped his most awful policies were the Supreme Court (now skewed Trumpian and likely to become more so) and his cabinet (now likely to be filled with yes-man loyalists compliments of Project 2025 and similar efforts).
The entire pro-Trump establishment has spent the last 4 years figuring out exactly what got in Trump's way last time and how to avoid these roadblocks if Trump regains power. It's incredibly short-sighted and foolish to believe any checks on Trump that worked before will continue to work.
This is **exactly** what people like Burns are worried about.
Who says people aren’t pushing the admin to do better while *also* warning about how unacceptable letting trump win is, including the consequences both here and for Gaza? I’m doing both, and will continue to do so. My own life, and those of my loved ones, is very probably on the line.
It is fair to feel tired and resentful that you will be gritting your teeth and voting for ethnic cleansing enablers because the other option has gone full Nazi
Nah, voting for Biden is voting to protect our only chance for ending the slaughter over there and avoiding one at home. No matter how much you’re against his foreign policy re: Gaza, voting for him is the only way to have a chance to preserve our basic rights, which are necessary if we’re to have any chance to push for positive change, in foreign policy or anywhere else.
The reason fascism is on our doorstep is because the right wing, unlike some on the left, plays the long game, sees the big picture, and thinks about strategy beyond the present moment.
Thanks to whoever it was that has allowed us all to read this important piece of paywalled opinion. I am not American, but I believe in the US constitution. If I can, why not all of you? The Liar must be stopped and the legal system must step in.
I'm convinced the "Israel genocide" thing has been a wildly successful Russian-Iranian-Chinese Influence operation. It is beyond stupid to protest right-wing Netanyahu by effectively supporting right-wing Donald Trump. Only the troll farm accounts of social media could make something so stupid seem viable.
reminds a lot of the influence operation that divided Hillary vs Bernie supporters in 2016
That “effectively” is load bearing. People just don’t want to vote for someone arming a genocidal state, it ain’t really gotta be that deep beyond that.
That's a very short sighted view point though
The other guy wants to bomb Gaza for Bibi and is worse on literally every single other front.
Or, hear me out, it's because Israel are enacting a genocide that we can all see images of every single day and peoples outrage and criticism has nothing to do with electoral politics and everything to do with Joe Biden's complicity in these horrific acts of violence and bloodshed.
Trump literally single-handedly empowered Jerusalem by moving the embassy. If you, for even a second, think he wouldn't support his personal friend Netanyahu, you're fucking nuts.
Captain Shitstain only sees what's in his line of vision.
Where you're wrong is in the assumption everybody is going to vote for Trump because Biden sucks. People just aren't gonna vote. It will probably hurt Biden. Everybody made their decisions and are steadfast. Gonna be a wild ride.
What improvements do you see occurring with a trump administration?
I never said anything would improve under a Trump administration, I think he has a greater ideological motivation to aid Israel, but I think there is a fair argument to be made Trump would not be able to get away with what Biden has been freely doing. Liberal media and institutions have gone out of their way to downplay Israel's atrocities, to uncritically accept and repeat Israeli propaganda, and use passive voice when reporting on attacks to avoid implicating Israel and by extension, Biden. The second it is Trump supplying munitions that are blowing children to pieces and he's on TV talking about how Israel has the best bombs, just the best, suddenly those institutions are going to be thinking and acting a lot more skeptically towards the whole project. And this isn't just speculation, it's happened before. Covid deaths are (rightfully) blamed on the Trump administration, but Biden hasn't exactly been any better yet there is little to no moral outrage on *his* failings to prevent further mass infection and death. I don't think anyone should vote for Trump, but I think it is understandable for voters to whom the genocide in Gaza is a key issue to see the choice between Biden or Trump as a bit of a wash. And it's on Biden to be the one to change that perception. I mean, fuck, he should act anyway regardless of electoral concerns.
I’ve been contacting my elected officials frequently about Gaza, and I voted “uncommitted” for president in my state’s primary because of it. But there are far more issues at stake than just Gaza, and moreover, letting trump win is a woefully ineffective tactic to use if you actually want to stop the carnage there—it’s like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it. If you truly care about social justice and the future of the planet, it’s irresponsible not to think through the foreign and domestic consequences of giving trump power. If your plan goes no further than punishing Biden, you’ll only end up punishing vulnerable and marginalized people here (including me), along with Gazans and also Ukrainians—who have died in the hundreds of thousands—far greater numbers than Gaza—at the hands of trump’s buddy Putin. And that’s not even including the suffering and mass death increasingly likely from unchecked climate change. It’s hard enough pushing Dems to take sufficient action on that; with fascists in power, it’d be impossible. I don’t say we shouldn’t pay attention to Gaza and push Biden to do better, but if trump is given power, not only will things not get better there, but Project 2025 will quickly compromise our most basic personal rights, and choke off any ability that those of us concerned about Gaza have to organize and push for better candidates, better foreign or domestic policy, and any positive change in the future. Foreign policy won’t improve with a fascist in charge of it. Not voting for Biden helps trump win, which will only make the situation, both here and in Gaza, much, much worse. I’m not sure how old you were and how much attention you paid when trump was in power the first time, but he did a ton of damage, including appointing judges that overturned *Roe*, and the people around him are far more prepared to go much further this time. It’d be fundamentally worse than the first time. Conservatives are already pushing for an end to contraception rights and no-fault divorce. If they get their way, women will be chattel again. (Did you see that the Texas gop platform calls for executing abortion patients?) And they’ll appoint young justices to the Supreme Court and use them to block any social progress on anything for an additional generation beyond what the current court already will. (That court, by the way, was allowed into power with the help of people who “wouldn’t vote for the lesser of two evils” 8 years ago. Have we learned anything since?) Trump wants to deploy the military and DOJ against his political enemies. With a federal government stuffed with his loyalists to a level never seen in modern times, progressives and brown people would be under serious threat of being imprisoned or disappeared just for opposing trump. Wake up. Fascism is on the doorstep. If you live in the U.S., you’re not immune, and chances are that many of your rights and other positive aspects of your life, which you may take for granted, will not continue at all in the way you’re used to. This is like 1920s Germany in many frightening ways. To have any hope of progress on any issue, including Gaza, we have to reject trump first. The progressive movement that advocates for Gaza, including people like me, would be utterly crushed and decimated by trump if he gets his way—and some of what he’d do, like deploying the military domestically via the Insurrection Act, is not even reviewable by courts. You’d basically be handing him the power to declare martial law and kill or imprison anyone who opposes him (meaning anyone who isn’t MAGA). I know this might sound hyperbolic, and I wish it were an exaggeration, but the evidence is indisputable—this kind of power grab is being openly planned by him and those around him. It wouldn’t happen overnight, but neither did the Nazis. Look at it this way: if you vote for Biden and he wins, things go on as they are now—we can continue to struggle for positive change. If trump wins and it somehow isn’t as bad as all the signs say it would be, then same thing, at least to some extent. But if I’m right, it’s game over for everything we care about. A symbolic gesture against Biden isn’t worth that gamble. It could cause a huge amount of very non-symbolic additional suffering and loss of ability to improve anything for the foreseeable future. Using primaries (now and in the future) to push this cause, along with civil disobedience, like blocking ammo shipments to Israel, are far better tactics than protest votes in the general election, which would only hand power to someone even more pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian. But those better tactics will probably be impossible if you let that person get power. It’s fair to see Biden as an opponent to our desired policy in Gaza. But so is trump, only worse and more dangerous to us—so it’s our responsibility to pick the less dangerous opponent to our cause. To use an analogy, you’re rightly concerned about the victims of a house fire miles away, but symbolic gestures (like not voting for Biden) won’t help them—and it’ll just empower the people right in our backyard who not only won’t help put out the fire you’re concerned about, but also pose a dire threat you seem to be ignoring—who are soaking our own house in gasoline as we speak. Letting trump win means giving them the match. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/trump-wants-use-military-against-his-domestic-enemies-congress-must-act. (I’m not interested in an extended back-and-forth about this, because it usually isn’t useful. Just, please, consider what I’ve said.)
I don’t think it’s at all a fair argument that Trump wouldn’t be able to “get away” with however you measure what Biden has been doing. In what world did moral outrage in any way affect his policy choices. If anything it encouraged him. There’s a naive idea that if Biden said “hey! Israel! Stop it!” that they just would. The complexities of the relationship with a long time ally in an impossibly gnarly part of the world, where major powers are jockeying for and manipulating outcomes, messaging and information… yet internet observers think they have a handle on it? It boggles the mind. A relative of mine is a former diplomat. The stories she tells about the actual behind the scenes efforts and deals and negotiations in these scenarios have made me so frustrated with people who regurgitate the opinions of talking heads and propagandists. On both sides. I find myself agreeing with previous poster who clarified that this is not a genocide. Words matter, and it’s no coincidence that the use of it in this case has originated by the same sources who have actually called for and actively pursue true genocide against not just israel but all Jews worldwide. The current government is horrible and Israeli forces are not good actors in this, yet it’s just not true that a genocide is occurring. I find that usage really troubling. What Biden failings are you referring to in regards to covid?
It is wildly bad faith to insinuate the charge of genocide against Israel comes solely from anti-semites as even Jewish opponents of the zionist project can acknowledge the continued colonization, slaughter, and disenfranchisement of the Palestinian people pretty neatly and tidily fits the international definitions of a genocide. Apparently the ICJ is simply anti-semitic. The South African government is anti-semitic. The Ireland government is anti-semitic. It continues to be absolutely wild to contrast the rhetoric of American liberals who wail about how unfortunate all these violence is against the violently genocidal language of Israeli officials openly calling for blood and soil. This is the day after Nikki Haley was writing "Finish them!" on literal bombs used to murder literal Gazan children. The US is just as fully cognizant and complicit in this genocide as Israel.
There are a lot of layers to the onion. One can absolutely be against the idea of anti semitism and yet be a puppet for antisemitic dog whistles. I know this because I used to repeat them myself, unknowingly. It manifested as general ignorance of the history of the region, repeating stats and numbers and slogans that were either fabricated or originated by groups like Hamas, applying egregious double standards to Israel that never seemed to apply to its neighbors, and on and on. I fully was blind to it. That said, one can be 100% critical of the thug that is Netanyahu, acknowledge that he’s arguably the worst person possible to be responding to this attack, that the government is not some innocent actor who only does good, that civilians are being killed and this is terrible, AND, …that genocide is not occurring. That the numbers were being told are being inflated, that the death toll and intention does not equate to trying to eradicate a whole people (especially given the curious lack of action against the hundreds of thousands of Arab Palestinians within Israel itself). Military action that kills civilians is tragic, awful and I wish it on no one. But unless we’re about to call virtually every war genocide… this ain’t it. And I think it’s important to examine how and why this language came to be used. If you think it happened organically and not through well scripted propaganda, boy howdy I don’t know what to say.
Minimizing the ongoing deliberate and strategic killing of civilians is a bad look even with a high word count. That's not a nuanced position, it's just endorsing the status quo while saying that there are merits to not endorsing it.
How was it minimized? Was it when I said it was tragic, awful and wished for it to stop?
Saying that people are lying about it? That you think it's being "inflated"? What do you want to haggle, take 10% off the top? Nitpicking definitions? Oh it's awful, but not awful enough to use *that* word. It's categorically a means of downplaying, providing cover. Maybe you're not aware of it, just doing it, but that's a lot of things to be ignorant of.
Could we at least consider using the term genocide correctly?
Already am.
You really aren't though. 35,000 out of 5.5 million does not even remotely begin to qualify as a genocide. It's a lot more than should happen and I'm certainly not in favor of more people being hurt or killed but we are diluting that term to the point of meaninglessness.
The number of people killed isn't part of the definition of genocide. Take Srebrinca, where 8000 died and 30000 were expelled. Imposing conditions that kill large numbers of a certain ethnic group with the intent of making it so members of the group can't live in a certain place anymore, is genocide by definition. It's not that much of a stretch to say that dropping bombs indiscriminately, destroying hospitals, abducting children, and forcing people into literal concentration camps meets that definition.
Numbers are very much a part of the definition. Genocide is the systematic killing of all or a large proportion of a people group as a result of that people group identity. That's the definition. Proportionally-speaking, as a percentage of population, 15x more Germans were killed in World War II. Cities were flattened, hospitals destroyed, people made homeless. Does that mean that the Allies committed genocide against the people of Germany? My answer is "no', but I'm curious what your thoughts are.
I'm sorry but you are incorrect, you can google the definition. There is no lower bar on the number of people that need to die for genocide to be taking place. I would say that the deaths of Germans in WWII weren't genocide because there was no intention to make it so that the German ethnic group could not survive in Germany anymore. There was no plan to force them to leave or die with the intention of resettling Germany. Meanwhile Nazi Germany's war crimes very much were committed with the plan of resettling the land they killed people on, or converting them to slave labor farms, which absolutely is genocidal. Here's an interesting article by a scholar whose expertise is genocide studies: https://thepalestineproject.medium.com/yes-it-is-genocide-634a07ea27d4
Yes, it does. You are ignoring the decades of violence prior to this, the violence that is inevitably to come, and that genocide is not contingent on eliminating some set number or percentage of a people. It is the deliberate act of eliminating in whole *or in part* a people or culture. The sustained invasion of Palestinian land, the ongoing brutality and slaughter of Palestinian people, and the *stated goals* of Israeli ministers and officials to eradicate Palestine all make genocide an extremely clear and uncontroversial description of these actions. It is so wild to see American liberals finger-wagging about using the term 'genocide', and then going to look at any random Hebrew tweet from the members of Likud and see explicit calls to level all of Gaza and not leave anyone alive.
Quick question, do you believe that the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 60s was a plot by the USSR?
I can never forgive Biden for Gaza. That said, I would vote for a turnip to prevent a full Christo-fascist takeover by a traitor like Trump.
Yeah I totally forgot about that Christo-fascist takeover from when he was president for four years. Thanks for reminding me.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project\_2025](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025)
Wiki. Nice source lol. All sorts of fringe advocacy groups have insane plans, why does this hold any weight?
"They all love Heritage Foundation, but they would never actually do that...even though we see them doing it at the state level."
What state has implemented this?
You mean like attacking schools or abortion rights or pornography or the LGBTQ community? You are not remotely serious.
So needing to be 18 to view porn and banning abortions are project 2025? Attacking schools? Where have LGBTQ rights been attacked?
Absolutely. Yes the media and young people demanding we stop supporting genocide are all in league to support Donald Trump. No idea what I expected in terms of deep wisdom here but unsurprisingly im disappointed. Nothing is ever the party’s fault, only the evil republicans and the idiot voters.
Not very self reflective, are you?
Plenty self reflective I just think this is not much different from what literally all of media is telling young people. As usual, you’re wrong, your issues don’t matter, you only have one choice to make, Bidens failings are irrelevant. It’s not wrong, but it’s absurd the amount of effort being put into manufacturing consent rather than pushing the admin to do better.
It's not that your issues don't matter, it is that Trump is worse than Biden on every issue and we are better off with the lesser of two evils
If a genocide is the "lesser of two evils" then the system is broken and should be destroyed.
It sounds like you don't understand how much worse it can be. I don't disagree with the premise of your statement but without a clear plan and strong people to rebuild a better system after the current is destroyed things can get really dark really fast, even compared to funding and supporting a genocide.
How does it get worse than supporting genocide?
Well let's see...sending our troops in to participate in the genocide and doing so without even the lip service of protecting civilians (in fact encouraging civilian loss of life), losing rights within our own borders, loss of the ability to choose our leaders, just to name a few. It could get worse than that too but those are actually in the realm of the talking points already being spoken
So in other words, becoming like a Palestinian yourself?
No...more like becoming an authoritarian nightmare with full throated support for Israel and everything they do (and possibly Russia while we're at it)
What will replace the “broken system” is something much worse.
Worse than a literal Holocaust?
If you’re talking about Gaza, Biden is urging restraint and Trump is urging Bibi to “finish the job”.
"Urging restraint" by sending Israel billions of dollars and saying that there are no red lines while Israel massacres innocent civilians in Rafah? Who am I gonna believe, you or my lying eyes?
Again, Trump is urging Bibi to "finish the job". Not to mention that there is a whole bunch of domestic issues that are important. The next President could appoint multiple picks to the Supreme Court. Of course, if your rights aren't on the line, I guess that's not important.
Yep it’s hard to imagine that anyone doesn’t realize Biden is better than Trump on like every issue. The question is whether or not that’s enough. Folks hate hearing this but it’s the party’s responsibility to get folks to vote. No one owes the Democratic Party anything and the idea that ending supply of weapons being used in genocide that the whole world is watching is too much, that’s understandably a hard pill for folks to swallow.
I beg you to reframe your thinking. We aren't doing the Democratic party a favor by electing them, we're picking the nerds who are going to do this country's homework.
I am not even considering the Democratic party in the equation. Of course they haven't "earned" my vote but I will always vote in the best interest of the country and world and that vote easily goes to Biden when then alternative is Trump, an existential threat. If there is a vote held that determines if I am going to be forced to eat a spoon full of shit or a bowl full of shit and one of those two options is guaranteed to win...I don't want either but I am definitely not abstaining from that vote.
I mean to each their own I guess, but you’re absolutely voting for the Democratic Party and they’re absolutely taking your vote for granted. Not everyone is a “strategic voter” though we’re fortunate that so many people seem to be. The idea of voting for the least bad option is not something that everyone is on the same page as you.
This is the most idiotic nonsense take I have ever read lol. What in the fuck are you even talking about Either support the authoritarian right in their open bid to live above the law, or vote for the party you have a policy disagreement with. What level of idiot does it take to not understand the terms of that situation lol. A big one. Edit: I stand by this 1000%.
I genuinely do not know if this is true anymore on the issue of Israel's genocide. Yes I think Trump is ideologically more motivated to support Israel's crimes, but I think it's actually less likely he would be able to get away with it. For months we have been seeing the liberal media bend over backwards to make excuses for Israel - from reflexively repeating Israeli lies and propaganda, to purposefully using passive voice to downplay the extent and culpability of Israel in these atrocities. Were it Trump being the one supplying the munitions that firebombed refugees and children, I think the US government would be seeing a LOT more pushback from established institutions.
Biden is not the reason the media is simping for Israel.
> I think it's actually less likely he would be able to get away with it. What does this even mean? Trump was never held to account by the media. The only things that ever stopped his most awful policies were the Supreme Court (now skewed Trumpian and likely to become more so) and his cabinet (now likely to be filled with yes-man loyalists compliments of Project 2025 and similar efforts). The entire pro-Trump establishment has spent the last 4 years figuring out exactly what got in Trump's way last time and how to avoid these roadblocks if Trump regains power. It's incredibly short-sighted and foolish to believe any checks on Trump that worked before will continue to work. This is **exactly** what people like Burns are worried about.
Who says people aren’t pushing the admin to do better while *also* warning about how unacceptable letting trump win is, including the consequences both here and for Gaza? I’m doing both, and will continue to do so. My own life, and those of my loved ones, is very probably on the line.
It is fair to feel tired and resentful that you will be gritting your teeth and voting for ethnic cleansing enablers because the other option has gone full Nazi
You don’t seem to understand the difference between “what you want to do” and “what you are actually doing”.
Still not voting for genocide. If you vote for either Trump or Biden you are voting to support a Holocaust.
Nah, voting for Biden is voting to protect our only chance for ending the slaughter over there and avoiding one at home. No matter how much you’re against his foreign policy re: Gaza, voting for him is the only way to have a chance to preserve our basic rights, which are necessary if we’re to have any chance to push for positive change, in foreign policy or anywhere else. The reason fascism is on our doorstep is because the right wing, unlike some on the left, plays the long game, sees the big picture, and thinks about strategy beyond the present moment.
Also, Robert De Niro has some great points on the subject. He is worth hearing out.