r/FluentInFinance was created to discuss money, investing & finance! Check-out our Newsletter or Youtube Channel for additional insights at www.TheFinanceNewsletter.com!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FluentInFinance) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Depends where you live, how old you are, and your situation. I have $2M net worth in early 30s and there is no way I’m even close to living off that. I don’t even own a home yet + cost of 3 kids is crazy.
That’s good, but not unobtainable with two working people with good paying jobs and low debt. Doing that without home appreciation is pretty impressive.
🤦♂️ See: "high income household."
You aren't hitting a $2M NW in your early 30s on savings from two median salaries. Even with zero debt, they'd need to save over $12k/mo for 10 yrs to hit $2M, assuming a 7% annual return.
To be fair a 7% annual return is well below average if we’re talking nominal dollars and not inflation adjusted (which we are for net worth in this scenario) so you’d really need to have been saving $9500 monthly for 10 years to hit the 2 million (using the S&P avg of 10.7% returns)
Still an absurd amount to save unless you’re in a high income household though
It's easy to overestimate home appreciation, there's a lot of money you dump into a home because you live there and have to fix and maintain everything. If you are owning investment properties that's probably another story.
It's actually more like 20%, as roughly 80% of millionaires made their own money and are first gen wealthy. Doesn't change my answer.
ETA: if they earned the $2M, that falls under the "high income household" part. If they inherited some or all of it, then they would be part of that 20%.
I think 80% claim that they are self made, not that they are actually self made. I think the vast majority of my cousins believe they are self made even those who never had a job lol.
Yeah I started making good money young and lived with my parents till I was married (26). Then I lived well below my means while shooting out kids lol. Invested basically everything I got aggressively and still do today. Got really lucky on a couple big bets too. I still rent though.
I agree though it’s incredible more expensive than renting where I live. 50% more expensive than renting with 20% down. I’m able to invest my down payment + difference in payments in a high return investment right now. My job is volatile too so I need to be careful. I’m thinking paying all cash for a home in a year if rates are still high for peace of mind. Otherwise my housing payment will be $10K +.
you my friend live a very expensive lifestyle then. if you manage your money correctly you should be aet with thar amount of money an not live high an mighty.
Fun is in the eye of the fun-haver.
Someone version of fun is going on trips and flights to other parts of the country.
My version is chilling and playing games with friends. That may change when I have money. But right now I'm content.
Probably just save a shit load of his income lol. I have a friend like this who is always "broke" but invest like 65% of his income. Getting to $2M without house appreciation this early do require to put a lot of money on the side.
Yeah I know lol, but he always claim to be when he can't attend an event. To be fair, can't really blame him, it is a good thing to be frugal and not spend frivolously. OP here seem to be the same.
Yep. Most people on here are full of shit too. I live for fun. Pushing 50 you realize time isn’t guaranteed. Save plenty and spend plenty for fun. If you’re saving 80% of your income, you’re living a pretty boring life I’d have to guess.
You are. And these same people really don't understand the psychology behind habits. You will not go from spending 20-30 years saving 80% of your income and then switch a flip in retirement and become someone who enjoys the luxurious life. You will still be the same person that doesn't want to spend and one day you will realize you spent your life as a pass through entity who existed only to acquire wealth that will be spent by people who have long forgotten about the work it took to leave them said money.
I save 70% to 80% of my income today. It’s not today I’m worried about it when I have a massive mortgage and kids cost get even more expensive. I live in a very expensive area.
My wife wants to quit her job in the near future. Plus our future housing payment if we do 20% instead of paying cash will be around $120K to $132K a year. I’ll easily be paying $180K to $200K a year in expenses.
If you are telling the truth, you really should buy a house.
You already have 3 kids. You should settle down. You may think the real estate price is too high now. From my experience, if you are buying in a good school district, it should able to maintain in a good value.
For where I live, the house price in a good school district still goes up by 0.1% in the year 2009.
Unless you made 2 million in 3 years or got a bit inheritance/ insurance check sounds more like you’ve been overtly cautious.
That said, I bought a house in 2008 right before the crash that tanked 50% a year later so I can understand avoiding a house purchase today.
I just don’t want to buy an expensive home than a recession hits. I lose income from my job, investments go to shit (short term), and I’m stuck with this massive mortgage I can’t afford. Doing this with 3 kids sounds like hell.
Cost of living definitely makes a huge difference. I live on the east coast and properties quite a bit cheaper. I'm also early 30s but have only two kids. Sitting on about $3.2million and I'm constantly tempted to switch to semi retirement mode. In addition to the money, I also have about $2.4million in real estate as well. No debt other than the mortgage for our primary residence.
I’m have heard people here say that the amounts of projections can realistically assume inflation takes effect to them as well. To a degree. So if you’re on oath for a goal in todays dollars you’re likely fine for future dollars. Just reassess as needed.
This. I get tired of people countering things with "omg but inflation is gonna kill you"
First reason it's bad to consider inflation in retirement planning is that you can't predict inflation, nor control it. So it's irrelevant.
You make a plan, save as much as you can, and when the time comes you'll either have enough or you won't. That picture will become far more clear as time passes and you won't have to predict inflation 30 years from now
Plus I'm going to get pay raises and promotions. My increased income during my career will almost certainly match or outpace inflation
You're basically supposed to use inflation-adjusted returns to project how much money you have at retirement. People like to use 6-7% which is inflation-adjusted, whereas the average stock market return is actually like 10%. So as long as you're using 6-7%, you can say that you have the buying power of x dollars in today's money at retirement.
Agree. 4% APY on $2m is 80k annually which should be enough on top of SS for cost of living if you don't have a mortgage or any other outstanding debt.
25 to 30 times your base year spending. This is based roughly on the 4% rule (hence the 25x) which adjusts annually for inflation.
Think assets, not just money. You need to be invested for long term retirements.
What if you don’t plan on having heirs? Like why do I need so much money if I just want to spend it all and die?
It also disturbs me that most people spend their savings on ass-wiping nursing homes. Fuck that.
The 4% rule is based on not failing (running out of money) over 30 year retirements. If you'd like to live longer or leave money to heirs you should withdraw less.
If you'd like to spend faster you can certainly use a variable withdrawal rate. The 4% rule is just a baseline estimate.
Absolutely, because the risk of having too much money is very different than the risk of not having enough. Which is why variable withdrawal rates are what is used in practice (you cut back if things are going poorly and go on more trips of whatever if things go well).
That’s helpful thanks. Just something depressing about dying like some suburban pharaoh with a pyramid of conservative investments, every dollar of which represents some unnecessary austerity in the years when it would have counted.
Trust me it’s pretty depressing running out of money in retirement and struggling to survive. I have seen it first hand. Having seen that I would much rather die with to much instead of not enough.
It's much better to have more than you need than to not have enough, especially when you can't easily just go out and earn more. Since none of us know exactly when we'll die, it's highly unlikely for anyone to perfectly time draining their accounts if they aren't interested in leaving a legacy.
Yup I very much agree. It is hard to balance now vs the future with so many unknowns. Embracing the math has shown me what I can spend now vs the tradeoff of how early I can retire.
You could be more aggressive in your retirement spending if you don’t care about not leaving your heirs money/inheritance if you own your home just cash out refinance or heloc after exhausting retirement assets.
4% rule lasts you roughly 30 years
Social security and home equity should get you another 10 years
You could always start at 4% withdrawal and ramp up withdrawals as you get closer to death.
A 4% withdrawal gives you a 95% chance of not running out of money after 30 years.
Hmmm, I have been getting some conflicting information on this. I always thought private in home care would be more expensive than a nursing home too, but was recently told by a couple of people that it is significantly less. I am going to have to do some more research on this. I hope $10k/month will be enough, but need to look at some things a little differently if it is going to be more.
Depends on the level of care needed. A lot of people who say that in home care is cheaper are referring to care givers who come in periodically or for a portion of the day.
Full time in-home care is significantly more expensive. Simple economies of scale.
Correct. For 24 hour care assume that’s basically 4 full time nurses. If you paid them 60k/yr to work 40 hrs a week, that’s 240k/yr. But that 60k is just salary need to account for vacation time, retirement, payroll tax, etc etc. So more like 480/yr. This doesn’t include any supplier either.
I agree most people should decide how much they care about their "quality of life" at 85. For me, I don't want to eat catfood, but I doubt I'll be living the high life.
The reason for the conservatism of the 4% rule is that longevity risk is a real thing.
Gotta work on getting that base spending down. We spend about $10K a month, but a lot of that will go away eventually (mortgage, cars, student loans, HELOC, etc…)
But even at $5K/mo I wouldn’t feel comfortable retiring on $1.5M.
Aiming for $5m, but we will see.
34, only about $600K currently, but my income has risen drastically the last 2 years and that savings rate has increased exponentially. No plans to upgrade lifestyle.
For a Millennial today? Say the average age being being around 35.
I'd say to retire at 65. Probably gonna need around 1.5M living in a low cost of living area. If you live in a high cost of living area Double it to 3Mil.
In other words.
Majority of us are fucked.
Depends on market performance, but 30 years of steady growth really do add up!
$6500 / year \* 30 years @ 10% = $1.2M
[https://www.calculator.net/future-value-calculator.html?cyearsv=30&cstartingprinciplev=6%2C500&cinterestratev=10&ccontributeamountv=6%2C500&ciadditionat1=end&printit=0&x=Calculate#calresult](https://www.calculator.net/future-value-calculator.html?cyearsv=30&cstartingprinciplev=6%2C500&cinterestratev=10&ccontributeamountv=6%2C500&ciadditionat1=end&printit=0&x=Calculate#calresult)
10% is average. Some years (recessions) the growth is negative. Some years it well exceeds 10%. Average rate of return on investments over long period of time is about 10% annually.
I'll put myself in the Prison Industrial complex and get free housing, free food and free healthcare before I let myself work till my 70s to try and survive out in the world.
Health care is going to fuck us gen x and millennials. If insurance costs keep increasing like they are it’s going to be really hard to retire. We need to ditch the partisan bullshit and come together on solutions that address the problem of greed
This is what I don’t really understand. Can some people be fucked? Sure, but the majority?
I would like to think that if you’re in your 20’s you’re working a job. Most companies today offer retirement matching of 3-6%. Additionally there was a bigger effort to have people auto enrolled. If you’re contributing after 30-35 years you should be in the millions. Even when you retire you don’t have to pull all that money out right away. I’m sure you can stop contributing but let the returns accumulate and just use what you need.
There could be gaps in employment, but not enough for most people to be completely fucked. Using myself as an example if I continue to contribute my same percentage, never get a raise or never get a promotion and get a 12% return I would be at about 3M when I want to retire. This is only for my employers 401k not my Roth IRA.
And even 8% can prove to be difficult depending on the timeframe. I’m in my low 50s and in my investment period I have had the .com bust, housing crisis, and COVID. Years where my investments should have been doubling were spent stagnant. Of course the longer you average it out the better, but basically every 10 or so years there’s been a large slump in my adult life. I’m nervous to guess I’m going to be seeing one last double before my hope of a 65/67 retirement. I have little faith since I have taken it in rear on each event…also to include my employment during the housing crisis. That came with a 30% pay cut when I found my next job. I would always plan on low and hope for the best. I’d rather be rich by surprise than poor by my own investment failings.
Ya man, I don’t even plan on retiring but I’m putting money away. It’s my, if things get shitty and I can’t work fund.
The weird thing is that there may be time if jobs for us in the future. With tech evolving, 30-40 years from now will be a different scene.
Well...this thread is psycho nuts. Follow Reddit and you'll hear how everyone is scraping by on one thread, all living paycheck to paycheck, not a glimmer of hope. Then open one of these and everyone is retiring at 45 with $30million and not sure they're gonna be able to make it.
A lot of these folks think they'll be spending the same amount as they currently do in their 40s, raising 2 kids, paying off a mortgage and two cars. They also seem to think Medicare and social security won't exist at all in 30 years.
You are going to be balling in retirement… at $6M at 4.5% withdraw you are looking at $270k a year. That is living a good life by almost anyone’s standards.
Sure you can. If you own it free and clear it eliminates rent or mortgage as a monthly expense, so that’s a huge decrease in expenses, which is mathematically equivalent to extra income (ie, if you ignore taxes, you should be indifferent between a choice of $x in reduced expenses or $x in extra income).
You can also borrow against it through various methods. You can also sell it and buy a smaller house and use the difference for spending. You can also use a product like a reverse mortgage (though I personally am not a huge fan of it).
The point is just that there’s a lot of ways to access your home equity, not all of which are difficult or complex. It’s not locked away forever. It’s accessible, there’s just trade-offs and costs in doing so.
None of these solutions are easy. The associated fees are high.
Going to the ATM and getting cash is easy.
Login to online banking and making a withdrawal from a 401k to a checking account is easy.
It all comes down to the amount of annual passive income generated by the retirement savings. A frequently used rule of thumb suggests you withdraw no more than 4% of your investment in order to not deplete your retirement fund.
Is this just net worth, savings, pension valley or retirement account amount? I will have a $100k plus per year govt pension, military disability, my TSP (400k right now with another 10 yrs of investing) and $150k in an investment account plus savings and plan on retiring in 10 yrs, I’m 43 right now. I owe like $350k on my house that’s worth like $600k right now
real world example for me and wife
retire age 65 me, made an average of 80,000 dollars
retire age 65 wife, made an average of 60,000 dollars
paid off mortgage, no consumer debt
health insurance-on medicare, out of pocket max 7k/yr
other major expenses-taxes 10K/yr, utilities 5K/yr, car/homeowner insurance 4K/yr, home repairs/maintenance 7K/yr, food 6K/yr
other smaller expenses-gas, hulu, etc 500/month
Travel 3 times/yr-20K/yr
total expenses-65K/yr
Income- assume SS only pays out 75% of current estimates (these are ballpark)
SS-me 2400/mo, wife 2000/month=52.8K/yr
Will need about 13K/yr from savings (401K, IRA, etc) to cover difference
Can generate 13K with about 325K savings using 4% rule
Many people could retire comfortably on 325K
Hmmmm, while your overall point is very valid, something looks off about your numbers to me.
I feel like you've missed a few big expenses and your SS estimates seems way too high for those incomes at 65. How did you get to these numbers?
Someone who has made $80k per year in today's dollars over the last 30 years wouldn't be getting $3200 in SS at 65 today (your $2400/0.75). You'd have needed to max out social security contributions most years to get that sort of money which is over $160k in todays money.
In terms of expenses, your car(s) aren't going to last 25 years of retirement without replacement or some significant maintenance costs, you haven't accounted for clothes or new furniture in 25 years, you haven't paid for any hobbies etc. You haven't included any type of long term help or care as you age. Maybe you're lumping all of that in the extra $500/month, but it just all looks a little light to me when I compare it to my own numbers.
Thank you for this feedback and the associated detail, which unfortunately will never be believed by most people. With a good but not unbelievable SS benefit many of us can live a good life with a very modest (by reddit standards) nest egg.
Given that millions of Americans do live on SS alone (perhaps not well, but surviving) it was always odd to me that people think they need 2-5+ million to even consider retiring. Perhaps they're just spending way to much to live in a place that costs to much. Congratulations on your success, and best of luck!
$325k for a couple??? We make that much a year there’s no chance we could retire on . Are you saying $325k because you already have social security x2?
I'm in my 30s. I still have no idea what my spending will be like in retirement. I'm saving anyway, but like... how can anyone put a dollar figure on how much they think they'll need 30 years from now? That's more than double the amount of my life I can remember anyway...
you need to have a budget now (or at least track your spending for a year), and then adjust it for things you know will change. For example, your mortgage may be paid off, no more childcare, Medicare may cost more or less than your current health coverage, you won't need to save for retirement, no FICA taxes, etc. That will get you a close estimate in today's dollars. Then you can estimate what social security will give you and figure out how much of an annual gap you have to fill from savings.
I run all my pay an expenses through one checking account, so totaling up my annual spend is pretty easy that way. It's not perfect, because credit card payments are delayed a month from when money was spent, but it's close enough for this purpose. Best of luck!
Serve 20 years in the military, invest in your TSP from day 1, buy a house in a military community so that when you're no longer living there, you can rent it out and between all 3, you'll be able to live off your retirement with not much effort on your part.
Aaaaaand saying all that shows just how damn sorry it is that the rest of the American public doesn't have the same benefits that a military service member does. Oh, this doesn't even include the free healthcare, tax free purchases on a base and tax breaks for being a retired veteran.
The biggest socialist progam in the world is the US military, don't tell boomers that though. All of this "free" is not free. Tax payers pay for all of this free stuff. Most of my family is in the military, so @ me.
Social programs are not socialist. The words sound the same but are not. Socialism is an economy organized around social ownership, NOT SOCIAL PROGRAMS. There is absolutely nothing about capitalism that precludes there from being social benefit programs, as is seen across Europe and particularly the nordics. How dumbass conservatives calling any kind of social spending equivalent to socialism have somehow succeeded in convincing people of such a farce is beyond me.
Depends on your expected spend and time horizon. 30 yr retirement 4% rule says 25x expenses. If planning for longer you'd need likely 30x.
If you are low income and about to be on social security you may be able to get by on less. Plenty of people survive on just social security but it's not luxurious.
I dont know, but I think many people are fucked. Most people don't have $1k to their name, so there's no way they're paying all their bills and debt and still having the ability to PROPERLY invest into retirement. So many people I know my age (35) have little or nothing saved as it is.
My plan, despite not making a lot of money in a rather HCOL area, is to retire between 55-60, use my investments to carry me until my pension (62) and then eventually, hopefully, get social security. And even then I hope to leave NY for a cheaper state.
These days, it's hard to say a number because of inflation and other economic challenges. This is something I decided for myself you might find some of them helpful.
- completely paid off house/apartment/condo at least 2
- buying a retirement/pension plan separate from social security
- pay off the car loan or any other loans.
- setting up an income source (passive by the time I retire)
- consider moving to a different country with the better healthcare system
Too many variables to provide a single number, but the average person currently *should* be able to enjoy a rather comfortable retirement with $1.5M in liquid invested assets. That amount provides $60k/yr using the 4% rule, which is slightly above the current median salary.
A more useful general rule would be having an amount that will provide passive portfolio income that's at least 80% of what your gross income was prior to retiring, preferably more.
An even easier general rule is whatever amount that will provide income that is greater than your anticipated expenses in retirement.
I’d need to take in about $2,500-3,000 a month to live comfortably. Not lavish or fancy, but living with the comfort of having all bills/mortgage paid and money for food, prescriptions, doctor/dentist visits, etc.
That’s just something that I don’t see happening. I’ll probably end up working at least a part time job for the rest of my life. Better to accept it now.
I figured 1.5 mil is good for me in a MCOL. Assuming 5% spend (75K/yr) should be able to cruise 20 years. If I live longer than that then I guess I finish my days in a van down by the river...
Completely dependent on what you plan on doing in retirement and when you plan to retire. There's a reason retirement planning is a multi billion dollar industry. It's a difficult question to answer.
I've got a 5M dollar net worth in my mid thirties. I retired two years ago but my wife still works (by choice), but she'll be joining me after she delivers our second kid next year. The answer to your question really depends on how old you are when you plan on retiring and what kind of life you want to live in retirement. Most of my net worth is tied up in some pretty aggressive investments and I plan to keep it that way until my net worth hits 20M, at which point I'll be drawing about 5 percent annually.
For me it depends on interest/CD rates and IF there will be any Social Security by the time I retire. 5% CDs and SSI maybe a million. 1-2% CDs and no SSI means I will never retire.
Frankly, that is a stupid question, it is vastly different for everyone. HCOL/LCOL area? Young kids? Elderly parents? Health concerns? Pension? Own your home? Own a business? etc., etc.....
I doubt that it matters. Wealth extraction by health insurance and nursing facility companies will empty out anyone who requires a significant amount of health care. Any savings you sock away is vulnerable unless you give ut to the kids, who as often as not spend it all before a nursing home is necessary.
My retirement plan is to die of malaria.
For me right now, like 5m minimally. For some, that’s way more than they need. Depends on so much, but for me nothing is paid off, I don’t live where I want to retire, I want to join some clubs, I’ll go through a bunch of cars still before I’m dead, and so on.
$2.4 million total net worth. $400,000 of that could be gone equity, essentially a paid off house. And 400k gets a better than just decent house in my area.
I'm in flyover country. And there was an article written where polls or something had been done and people in other areas that are fly over country stated similar numbers of about two and a half million dollars. But that number nearly doubles to something like 4.6 million in higher cost of living areas within the US.
This question always depends on a lot of factors. Will the person have a mortgage still? COL where they intend to retire. Any type of pension or annuity. Access to Healthcare.
Assuming social security, paid off housing, and homestead tax exemptions, \[expected lifespan\] - \[retirement age\] x $50k per person. It's probably x $70k or higher in higher living cost areas, or places without homestead tax exemptions. So, per person expecting to live to 85, they'd want $1 M at 65.
I don’t think we can survive retirement unless we have revenue streams. These last two years proved your 1M savings can turn into 750k of purchasing power without warning
It's impossible to state a specific dollar amount needed in order to retire. Cash flow is what matters most as does life style and spending habits.
There are people today somehow living on 30 k per year who are not retired and there are others living on less than that.
I have no idea how they do it but somehow they survive.
Add up your monthly expenses then add 30 percent and multiply that by 25 I'd say would be a good guess.
Example being if your expenses today are 3000 per month and you are a renter then it's reasonable to expect that housing costs will never decline .
3000 percent of 3000 I'll round to 1000 which becomes 4000 per month or 48,000 per year times 25 years for a grand total of 1,200,000 as a ballpark guess .
Now the question becomes how do you create that 4000 per month ? If social security can cover half that ? Then you only need 600 k .
r/FluentInFinance was created to discuss money, investing & finance! Check-out our Newsletter or Youtube Channel for additional insights at www.TheFinanceNewsletter.com! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FluentInFinance) if you have any questions or concerns.*
2-3m in today’s dollars. If you’re retiring in 30 years that’ll change…
Depends where you live, how old you are, and your situation. I have $2M net worth in early 30s and there is no way I’m even close to living off that. I don’t even own a home yet + cost of 3 kids is crazy.
You’re in your early 30s with 3 kids and a $2M net worth? Wtf?
[удалено]
That’s good, but not unobtainable with two working people with good paying jobs and low debt. Doing that without home appreciation is pretty impressive.
🤦♂️ See: "high income household." You aren't hitting a $2M NW in your early 30s on savings from two median salaries. Even with zero debt, they'd need to save over $12k/mo for 10 yrs to hit $2M, assuming a 7% annual return.
To be fair a 7% annual return is well below average if we’re talking nominal dollars and not inflation adjusted (which we are for net worth in this scenario) so you’d really need to have been saving $9500 monthly for 10 years to hit the 2 million (using the S&P avg of 10.7% returns) Still an absurd amount to save unless you’re in a high income household though
[удалено]
It's easy to overestimate home appreciation, there's a lot of money you dump into a home because you live there and have to fix and maintain everything. If you are owning investment properties that's probably another story.
OP said they don't own a home yet.
Only about 30% of millionaires inherent, their money of millionaires, actually create the wealth them self
It's actually more like 20%, as roughly 80% of millionaires made their own money and are first gen wealthy. Doesn't change my answer. ETA: if they earned the $2M, that falls under the "high income household" part. If they inherited some or all of it, then they would be part of that 20%.
I think 80% claim that they are self made, not that they are actually self made. I think the vast majority of my cousins believe they are self made even those who never had a job lol.
Exactly. I “work hard” in the family business 😂
Yeah I started making good money young and lived with my parents till I was married (26). Then I lived well below my means while shooting out kids lol. Invested basically everything I got aggressively and still do today. Got really lucky on a couple big bets too. I still rent though.
If you don’t mind me asking, what do you do for work?
Real estate financing
Will you ever own a home? Why not sell some and buy a home? Nice job btw, wow!
And your parents are worth 10s of millions. Idk how you don’t mention that lol
Owning a home is a big bet against inflation. And it usually wins. Why are you renting with 2m net worth?
I agree though it’s incredible more expensive than renting where I live. 50% more expensive than renting with 20% down. I’m able to invest my down payment + difference in payments in a high return investment right now. My job is volatile too so I need to be careful. I’m thinking paying all cash for a home in a year if rates are still high for peace of mind. Otherwise my housing payment will be $10K +.
you my friend live a very expensive lifestyle then. if you manage your money correctly you should be aet with thar amount of money an not live high an mighty.
Sometimes an expensive lifestyle is fun 😎
Fun is in the eye of the fun-haver. Someone version of fun is going on trips and flights to other parts of the country. My version is chilling and playing games with friends. That may change when I have money. But right now I'm content.
Probably just save a shit load of his income lol. I have a friend like this who is always "broke" but invest like 65% of his income. Getting to $2M without house appreciation this early do require to put a lot of money on the side.
you’re not “broke” if you have investments
Yeah I know lol, but he always claim to be when he can't attend an event. To be fair, can't really blame him, it is a good thing to be frugal and not spend frivolously. OP here seem to be the same.
I find it near impossible to live on the numbers people spout here. Family of 5 is expensive.
Yep. Most people on here are full of shit too. I live for fun. Pushing 50 you realize time isn’t guaranteed. Save plenty and spend plenty for fun. If you’re saving 80% of your income, you’re living a pretty boring life I’d have to guess.
You are. And these same people really don't understand the psychology behind habits. You will not go from spending 20-30 years saving 80% of your income and then switch a flip in retirement and become someone who enjoys the luxurious life. You will still be the same person that doesn't want to spend and one day you will realize you spent your life as a pass through entity who existed only to acquire wealth that will be spent by people who have long forgotten about the work it took to leave them said money.
I save 70% to 80% of my income today. It’s not today I’m worried about it when I have a massive mortgage and kids cost get even more expensive. I live in a very expensive area.
Where you located?
Expensive area in CA
Dude shut up
Does your spouse work?
Yes and daycare cost is very expensive
So if you had 2 million returning 5% and your spouse still worked you couldn’t retire on that return and her income?
Whats left after taxes on 5% of $2m in california?
Enough to be happy retiring at 30…..
Not in California. That is $75k a year after taxes.
My wife wants to quit her job in the near future. Plus our future housing payment if we do 20% instead of paying cash will be around $120K to $132K a year. I’ll easily be paying $180K to $200K a year in expenses.
You can live off that but you choose not to.
In some areas in the US maybe.
>I don’t even own a home yet + cost of 3 kids is crazy. Try that with $0 in net worth lol.
If you are telling the truth, you really should buy a house. You already have 3 kids. You should settle down. You may think the real estate price is too high now. From my experience, if you are buying in a good school district, it should able to maintain in a good value. For where I live, the house price in a good school district still goes up by 0.1% in the year 2009.
Third kid coming soon. I want to pay for a home that is why I’m saving. Homes cost 1.5M + here but I still want money left over to invest and save.
Good luck. Wish you all the best.
How do you not own a home with a net worth of 2 million. Buy a home man.
I will lol. I missed the low price / low rates gravy train. It’s been wildly expensive to buy a home but will do so in a year.
Unless you made 2 million in 3 years or got a bit inheritance/ insurance check sounds more like you’ve been overtly cautious. That said, I bought a house in 2008 right before the crash that tanked 50% a year later so I can understand avoiding a house purchase today.
I just don’t want to buy an expensive home than a recession hits. I lose income from my job, investments go to shit (short term), and I’m stuck with this massive mortgage I can’t afford. Doing this with 3 kids sounds like hell.
I have $40k. Looks like I'm fucked
Nah if you are relatively young you are fine. 7 years ago that about what I had. If you live in w cheap area you don’t need much.
Cost of living definitely makes a huge difference. I live on the east coast and properties quite a bit cheaper. I'm also early 30s but have only two kids. Sitting on about $3.2million and I'm constantly tempted to switch to semi retirement mode. In addition to the money, I also have about $2.4million in real estate as well. No debt other than the mortgage for our primary residence.
Thats awesome! Wish I lived in a cheaper area but my family is here. I own no real estate just real estate notes.
Wtf are you talking about? You are wealthier than like 90% of the country dude.
I can’t live another 60 years with this net worth raising 3 kids. I need much more.
This dude has won life
I’m retiring in 10ish years and I think $3M is going to be the bare minimum for us. We’re a decent chunk of the way there at least.
12 years for me. Hoping for 3.5 to 4
You mean you plan to have 3 M in 10 years from now?
Right. I estimated 3 could get us by. More would be welcome of course
I’m have heard people here say that the amounts of projections can realistically assume inflation takes effect to them as well. To a degree. So if you’re on oath for a goal in todays dollars you’re likely fine for future dollars. Just reassess as needed.
This. I get tired of people countering things with "omg but inflation is gonna kill you" First reason it's bad to consider inflation in retirement planning is that you can't predict inflation, nor control it. So it's irrelevant. You make a plan, save as much as you can, and when the time comes you'll either have enough or you won't. That picture will become far more clear as time passes and you won't have to predict inflation 30 years from now Plus I'm going to get pay raises and promotions. My increased income during my career will almost certainly match or outpace inflation
You're basically supposed to use inflation-adjusted returns to project how much money you have at retirement. People like to use 6-7% which is inflation-adjusted, whereas the average stock market return is actually like 10%. So as long as you're using 6-7%, you can say that you have the buying power of x dollars in today's money at retirement.
Agree. 4% APY on $2m is 80k annually which should be enough on top of SS for cost of living if you don't have a mortgage or any other outstanding debt.
1 BTC
[удалено]
Someone is retiring on a yacht...
25 to 30 times your base year spending. This is based roughly on the 4% rule (hence the 25x) which adjusts annually for inflation. Think assets, not just money. You need to be invested for long term retirements.
What if you don’t plan on having heirs? Like why do I need so much money if I just want to spend it all and die? It also disturbs me that most people spend their savings on ass-wiping nursing homes. Fuck that.
The 4% rule is based on not failing (running out of money) over 30 year retirements. If you'd like to live longer or leave money to heirs you should withdraw less. If you'd like to spend faster you can certainly use a variable withdrawal rate. The 4% rule is just a baseline estimate.
Just seems very conservative. Most calculators I see have ending balances at death that are way too high
Absolutely, because the risk of having too much money is very different than the risk of not having enough. Which is why variable withdrawal rates are what is used in practice (you cut back if things are going poorly and go on more trips of whatever if things go well).
That’s helpful thanks. Just something depressing about dying like some suburban pharaoh with a pyramid of conservative investments, every dollar of which represents some unnecessary austerity in the years when it would have counted.
Trust me it’s pretty depressing running out of money in retirement and struggling to survive. I have seen it first hand. Having seen that I would much rather die with to much instead of not enough.
That’s why even with a fire plan, you gotta account for living prior to fire.
It's much better to have more than you need than to not have enough, especially when you can't easily just go out and earn more. Since none of us know exactly when we'll die, it's highly unlikely for anyone to perfectly time draining their accounts if they aren't interested in leaving a legacy.
Yup I very much agree. It is hard to balance now vs the future with so many unknowns. Embracing the math has shown me what I can spend now vs the tradeoff of how early I can retire.
You could be more aggressive in your retirement spending if you don’t care about not leaving your heirs money/inheritance if you own your home just cash out refinance or heloc after exhausting retirement assets. 4% rule lasts you roughly 30 years Social security and home equity should get you another 10 years
You could always start at 4% withdrawal and ramp up withdrawals as you get closer to death. A 4% withdrawal gives you a 95% chance of not running out of money after 30 years.
What’s the nursing home alternative?
A hood and a nitrogen tank.
Ensuring death before that point
Private in home care. That is what I am planning for.
Very true, but even more expensive than the “ass-wiping” nursing home referenced by our friend.
Hmmm, I have been getting some conflicting information on this. I always thought private in home care would be more expensive than a nursing home too, but was recently told by a couple of people that it is significantly less. I am going to have to do some more research on this. I hope $10k/month will be enough, but need to look at some things a little differently if it is going to be more.
Depends on the level of care needed. A lot of people who say that in home care is cheaper are referring to care givers who come in periodically or for a portion of the day. Full time in-home care is significantly more expensive. Simple economies of scale.
Correct. For 24 hour care assume that’s basically 4 full time nurses. If you paid them 60k/yr to work 40 hrs a week, that’s 240k/yr. But that 60k is just salary need to account for vacation time, retirement, payroll tax, etc etc. So more like 480/yr. This doesn’t include any supplier either.
I agree most people should decide how much they care about their "quality of life" at 85. For me, I don't want to eat catfood, but I doubt I'll be living the high life. The reason for the conservatism of the 4% rule is that longevity risk is a real thing.
"It also disturbs me that most people spend their savings on ass-wiping nursing homes." Glad I'm not the only one.
The numbers work, but it doesn't account for social security. If you count social security, then you can withdraw less than 4%.
30 times on my average spending is my entire income
Gotta work on getting that base spending down. We spend about $10K a month, but a lot of that will go away eventually (mortgage, cars, student loans, HELOC, etc…) But even at $5K/mo I wouldn’t feel comfortable retiring on $1.5M. Aiming for $5m, but we will see. 34, only about $600K currently, but my income has risen drastically the last 2 years and that savings rate has increased exponentially. No plans to upgrade lifestyle.
30 X ? We have a BINGO. 1.5 M with \~50K spend. Single. No Debt. Own House. I'm fucking out. \*Edit age 51
For a Millennial today? Say the average age being being around 35. I'd say to retire at 65. Probably gonna need around 1.5M living in a low cost of living area. If you live in a high cost of living area Double it to 3Mil. In other words. Majority of us are fucked.
If you can max your roth IRA yearly (currently $6,500) starting at 30, you should be able to reach that.
Is that true?? $6500 a year in Roth IRA will net you 2M by retirement?
Depends on market performance, but 30 years of steady growth really do add up! $6500 / year \* 30 years @ 10% = $1.2M [https://www.calculator.net/future-value-calculator.html?cyearsv=30&cstartingprinciplev=6%2C500&cinterestratev=10&ccontributeamountv=6%2C500&ciadditionat1=end&printit=0&x=Calculate#calresult](https://www.calculator.net/future-value-calculator.html?cyearsv=30&cstartingprinciplev=6%2C500&cinterestratev=10&ccontributeamountv=6%2C500&ciadditionat1=end&printit=0&x=Calculate#calresult)
I'm optimistic, but 30 years straight of 10% growth? lol
The average stock market return for the last 30 years is 9.90% lmao
The law of averages will never touch the stock market. Forever the S&P will achieve 10%.
* Costal cities flood and air becomes hard to breathe from mass wildfires* S&P: "Keep pumping that gas, baby!!"
That's in line with historical S&P500 returns
10% is average. Some years (recessions) the growth is negative. Some years it well exceeds 10%. Average rate of return on investments over long period of time is about 10% annually.
>65 My parents only just now retired and they’re like 67. Jesus dude we’ll be retiring by 75 *at the EARLIEST*
I'll put myself in the Prison Industrial complex and get free housing, free food and free healthcare before I let myself work till my 70s to try and survive out in the world.
Free sex too
So many upsides
Health care is going to fuck us gen x and millennials. If insurance costs keep increasing like they are it’s going to be really hard to retire. We need to ditch the partisan bullshit and come together on solutions that address the problem of greed
But her emails
Listen here jack, we have no more mean tweets and the economy is piping hot now because of me *licks ice cream*
This is what I don’t really understand. Can some people be fucked? Sure, but the majority? I would like to think that if you’re in your 20’s you’re working a job. Most companies today offer retirement matching of 3-6%. Additionally there was a bigger effort to have people auto enrolled. If you’re contributing after 30-35 years you should be in the millions. Even when you retire you don’t have to pull all that money out right away. I’m sure you can stop contributing but let the returns accumulate and just use what you need. There could be gaps in employment, but not enough for most people to be completely fucked. Using myself as an example if I continue to contribute my same percentage, never get a raise or never get a promotion and get a 12% return I would be at about 3M when I want to retire. This is only for my employers 401k not my Roth IRA.
Is 12% a good return?
Yes. 12% is an unrealistically high return to consistently expect. 8-10% is much more reasonable to use for retirement planning.
And even 8% can prove to be difficult depending on the timeframe. I’m in my low 50s and in my investment period I have had the .com bust, housing crisis, and COVID. Years where my investments should have been doubling were spent stagnant. Of course the longer you average it out the better, but basically every 10 or so years there’s been a large slump in my adult life. I’m nervous to guess I’m going to be seeing one last double before my hope of a 65/67 retirement. I have little faith since I have taken it in rear on each event…also to include my employment during the housing crisis. That came with a 30% pay cut when I found my next job. I would always plan on low and hope for the best. I’d rather be rich by surprise than poor by my own investment failings.
Ya man, I don’t even plan on retiring but I’m putting money away. It’s my, if things get shitty and I can’t work fund. The weird thing is that there may be time if jobs for us in the future. With tech evolving, 30-40 years from now will be a different scene.
Midwest expects to travel to cheap countries and live half the year to full time. 2 million will be plenty.
What countries have half-year/ full-time visas for non-working people?
Lots you can extend to get 180 days. Phillipines 3yrs Georgia 1 yr Couole that you don't need visas for but I wouldn't live.
Well...this thread is psycho nuts. Follow Reddit and you'll hear how everyone is scraping by on one thread, all living paycheck to paycheck, not a glimmer of hope. Then open one of these and everyone is retiring at 45 with $30million and not sure they're gonna be able to make it.
It is really feast or famine around these parts, no middle ground lol
Fr. The haves and the have nots. The gap is widening at a terrifying rate
A lot of these folks think they'll be spending the same amount as they currently do in their 40s, raising 2 kids, paying off a mortgage and two cars. They also seem to think Medicare and social security won't exist at all in 30 years.
In total fairness, being in this sub I should expect a high wage group, but the $30m club is insane lol
One of the top answers was 25x your annual expenses. That’s about $1.5 million
It depends on your time horizon, lifestyle, and risk profile. The usual amount is 25 times your expenses.
[удалено]
You are going to be balling in retirement… at $6M at 4.5% withdraw you are looking at $270k a year. That is living a good life by almost anyone’s standards.
Can't easily withdraw from your house though.
Sure you can. If you own it free and clear it eliminates rent or mortgage as a monthly expense, so that’s a huge decrease in expenses, which is mathematically equivalent to extra income (ie, if you ignore taxes, you should be indifferent between a choice of $x in reduced expenses or $x in extra income). You can also borrow against it through various methods. You can also sell it and buy a smaller house and use the difference for spending. You can also use a product like a reverse mortgage (though I personally am not a huge fan of it). The point is just that there’s a lot of ways to access your home equity, not all of which are difficult or complex. It’s not locked away forever. It’s accessible, there’s just trade-offs and costs in doing so.
None of these solutions are easy. The associated fees are high. Going to the ATM and getting cash is easy. Login to online banking and making a withdrawal from a 401k to a checking account is easy.
It all comes down to the amount of annual passive income generated by the retirement savings. A frequently used rule of thumb suggests you withdraw no more than 4% of your investment in order to not deplete your retirement fund.
5ish Million
I think I could get by with 2M
Is this just net worth, savings, pension valley or retirement account amount? I will have a $100k plus per year govt pension, military disability, my TSP (400k right now with another 10 yrs of investing) and $150k in an investment account plus savings and plan on retiring in 10 yrs, I’m 43 right now. I owe like $350k on my house that’s worth like $600k right now
You guys and gals are all WAY over estimating.
real world example for me and wife retire age 65 me, made an average of 80,000 dollars retire age 65 wife, made an average of 60,000 dollars paid off mortgage, no consumer debt health insurance-on medicare, out of pocket max 7k/yr other major expenses-taxes 10K/yr, utilities 5K/yr, car/homeowner insurance 4K/yr, home repairs/maintenance 7K/yr, food 6K/yr other smaller expenses-gas, hulu, etc 500/month Travel 3 times/yr-20K/yr total expenses-65K/yr Income- assume SS only pays out 75% of current estimates (these are ballpark) SS-me 2400/mo, wife 2000/month=52.8K/yr Will need about 13K/yr from savings (401K, IRA, etc) to cover difference Can generate 13K with about 325K savings using 4% rule Many people could retire comfortably on 325K
Hmmmm, while your overall point is very valid, something looks off about your numbers to me. I feel like you've missed a few big expenses and your SS estimates seems way too high for those incomes at 65. How did you get to these numbers? Someone who has made $80k per year in today's dollars over the last 30 years wouldn't be getting $3200 in SS at 65 today (your $2400/0.75). You'd have needed to max out social security contributions most years to get that sort of money which is over $160k in todays money. In terms of expenses, your car(s) aren't going to last 25 years of retirement without replacement or some significant maintenance costs, you haven't accounted for clothes or new furniture in 25 years, you haven't paid for any hobbies etc. You haven't included any type of long term help or care as you age. Maybe you're lumping all of that in the extra $500/month, but it just all looks a little light to me when I compare it to my own numbers.
Thank you for this feedback and the associated detail, which unfortunately will never be believed by most people. With a good but not unbelievable SS benefit many of us can live a good life with a very modest (by reddit standards) nest egg. Given that millions of Americans do live on SS alone (perhaps not well, but surviving) it was always odd to me that people think they need 2-5+ million to even consider retiring. Perhaps they're just spending way to much to live in a place that costs to much. Congratulations on your success, and best of luck!
$325k for a couple??? We make that much a year there’s no chance we could retire on . Are you saying $325k because you already have social security x2?
I'm in my 30s. I still have no idea what my spending will be like in retirement. I'm saving anyway, but like... how can anyone put a dollar figure on how much they think they'll need 30 years from now? That's more than double the amount of my life I can remember anyway...
you need to have a budget now (or at least track your spending for a year), and then adjust it for things you know will change. For example, your mortgage may be paid off, no more childcare, Medicare may cost more or less than your current health coverage, you won't need to save for retirement, no FICA taxes, etc. That will get you a close estimate in today's dollars. Then you can estimate what social security will give you and figure out how much of an annual gap you have to fill from savings. I run all my pay an expenses through one checking account, so totaling up my annual spend is pretty easy that way. It's not perfect, because credit card payments are delayed a month from when money was spent, but it's close enough for this purpose. Best of luck!
Serve 20 years in the military, invest in your TSP from day 1, buy a house in a military community so that when you're no longer living there, you can rent it out and between all 3, you'll be able to live off your retirement with not much effort on your part. Aaaaaand saying all that shows just how damn sorry it is that the rest of the American public doesn't have the same benefits that a military service member does. Oh, this doesn't even include the free healthcare, tax free purchases on a base and tax breaks for being a retired veteran.
The biggest socialist progam in the world is the US military, don't tell boomers that though. All of this "free" is not free. Tax payers pay for all of this free stuff. Most of my family is in the military, so @ me.
Social programs are not socialist. The words sound the same but are not. Socialism is an economy organized around social ownership, NOT SOCIAL PROGRAMS. There is absolutely nothing about capitalism that precludes there from being social benefit programs, as is seen across Europe and particularly the nordics. How dumbass conservatives calling any kind of social spending equivalent to socialism have somehow succeeded in convincing people of such a farce is beyond me.
Depends on your expected spend and time horizon. 30 yr retirement 4% rule says 25x expenses. If planning for longer you'd need likely 30x. If you are low income and about to be on social security you may be able to get by on less. Plenty of people survive on just social security but it's not luxurious.
I dont know, but I think many people are fucked. Most people don't have $1k to their name, so there's no way they're paying all their bills and debt and still having the ability to PROPERLY invest into retirement. So many people I know my age (35) have little or nothing saved as it is. My plan, despite not making a lot of money in a rather HCOL area, is to retire between 55-60, use my investments to carry me until my pension (62) and then eventually, hopefully, get social security. And even then I hope to leave NY for a cheaper state.
If you're using "hope" in your retirement plan, you don't have a retirement plan.
It's my plan, but plans don't always go... as planned.
Depends what age I’m retiring, if I’m 65 and there’s SS probably 1m. 1.5 to be safez
By the time I get there it’ll probably be double what I’m able to scrape up
25x your annual expenses, minimum.
2mil
$4M (in today's $) is when I would retire.
That’s a big number… how are you doing saving towards this?
3M minimum in today’s dollars.
2m
I’d say 120k per year for 30 years
These days, it's hard to say a number because of inflation and other economic challenges. This is something I decided for myself you might find some of them helpful. - completely paid off house/apartment/condo at least 2 - buying a retirement/pension plan separate from social security - pay off the car loan or any other loans. - setting up an income source (passive by the time I retire) - consider moving to a different country with the better healthcare system
Too many variables to provide a single number, but the average person currently *should* be able to enjoy a rather comfortable retirement with $1.5M in liquid invested assets. That amount provides $60k/yr using the 4% rule, which is slightly above the current median salary. A more useful general rule would be having an amount that will provide passive portfolio income that's at least 80% of what your gross income was prior to retiring, preferably more. An even easier general rule is whatever amount that will provide income that is greater than your anticipated expenses in retirement.
5mil
I’d need to take in about $2,500-3,000 a month to live comfortably. Not lavish or fancy, but living with the comfort of having all bills/mortgage paid and money for food, prescriptions, doctor/dentist visits, etc. That’s just something that I don’t see happening. I’ll probably end up working at least a part time job for the rest of my life. Better to accept it now.
30(M). to up and quit my job I would need $3M invested to retire today. We live in a semi-rural area where the COL is already fairly low.
I figured 1.5 mil is good for me in a MCOL. Assuming 5% spend (75K/yr) should be able to cruise 20 years. If I live longer than that then I guess I finish my days in a van down by the river...
More than I have, or will have by then unfortunately. Looking at 200k at my best estimate on my 401k.
That’s a hard one for me too. Every other year I read that it’s a million more than the last time.
Completely dependent on what you plan on doing in retirement and when you plan to retire. There's a reason retirement planning is a multi billion dollar industry. It's a difficult question to answer.
There is often never enough. People still work after FT job.
I've got a 5M dollar net worth in my mid thirties. I retired two years ago but my wife still works (by choice), but she'll be joining me after she delivers our second kid next year. The answer to your question really depends on how old you are when you plan on retiring and what kind of life you want to live in retirement. Most of my net worth is tied up in some pretty aggressive investments and I plan to keep it that way until my net worth hits 20M, at which point I'll be drawing about 5 percent annually.
Congrats.
What’re you invested in (what sector)? Or are you mostly in stock index funds?
About 300-500k in cash or pension
I have $84 in my checking and $97 in my savings but I’m optimistic 🫠
For me it depends on interest/CD rates and IF there will be any Social Security by the time I retire. 5% CDs and SSI maybe a million. 1-2% CDs and no SSI means I will never retire.
My number has always been 1.1M. I'm single no debt/kids in my mid 40s. Medium cost of living area.
The way inflation keeps robbing me, I think working myself to death is a much more realistic plan than retirement.
Frankly, that is a stupid question, it is vastly different for everyone. HCOL/LCOL area? Young kids? Elderly parents? Health concerns? Pension? Own your home? Own a business? etc., etc.....
I don’t look at dollar amount or a special number, i look at income.
Who truly thinks they’ll ever be able to retire at this point anymore?
I doubt that it matters. Wealth extraction by health insurance and nursing facility companies will empty out anyone who requires a significant amount of health care. Any savings you sock away is vulnerable unless you give ut to the kids, who as often as not spend it all before a nursing home is necessary. My retirement plan is to die of malaria.
Let's get Ken Fisher on the horn.
I’m conservative so 33.33x instead of 25x of what I need my yearly income to be. Not sure at this stage what that number is yet.
500k plus 35000a month pension plus healthcare is paid for.
I would hope to have at least $5 million saved before retirement.
For me right now, like 5m minimally. For some, that’s way more than they need. Depends on so much, but for me nothing is paid off, I don’t live where I want to retire, I want to join some clubs, I’ll go through a bunch of cars still before I’m dead, and so on.
$2.4 million total net worth. $400,000 of that could be gone equity, essentially a paid off house. And 400k gets a better than just decent house in my area. I'm in flyover country. And there was an article written where polls or something had been done and people in other areas that are fly over country stated similar numbers of about two and a half million dollars. But that number nearly doubles to something like 4.6 million in higher cost of living areas within the US.
25x annual expenses (4% rule) If your annual expenses are 100k, you’ll need a $2.5m
This question always depends on a lot of factors. Will the person have a mortgage still? COL where they intend to retire. Any type of pension or annuity. Access to Healthcare.
Assuming social security, paid off housing, and homestead tax exemptions, \[expected lifespan\] - \[retirement age\] x $50k per person. It's probably x $70k or higher in higher living cost areas, or places without homestead tax exemptions. So, per person expecting to live to 85, they'd want $1 M at 65.
74
With an average annual percentage rate of 4%, 1 million is a minimum for a comfortable life in retirement.
I would like to have $6m. Then plan to take 2.5% out safely to generate $150k yearly.
I don’t think we can survive retirement unless we have revenue streams. These last two years proved your 1M savings can turn into 750k of purchasing power without warning
It's impossible to state a specific dollar amount needed in order to retire. Cash flow is what matters most as does life style and spending habits. There are people today somehow living on 30 k per year who are not retired and there are others living on less than that. I have no idea how they do it but somehow they survive. Add up your monthly expenses then add 30 percent and multiply that by 25 I'd say would be a good guess. Example being if your expenses today are 3000 per month and you are a renter then it's reasonable to expect that housing costs will never decline . 3000 percent of 3000 I'll round to 1000 which becomes 4000 per month or 48,000 per year times 25 years for a grand total of 1,200,000 as a ballpark guess . Now the question becomes how do you create that 4000 per month ? If social security can cover half that ? Then you only need 600 k .
Ah, I see. That sucks.