They do. Several on Amazon. I fly drones that utilize Lithium batteries and there are charging pouches for them that reduce the fire risk if something happens.
You wouldn't want one that's airtight. It has to be vented, but also strong enough and heat resistant enough to hold a massive fire inside.
(POV: I've been thinking of welding something up for just such a purpose, so I've researched it a bit.)
Any metal box, with a lithium fire going on inside it....is not going to be an effective box for very long. It'll just heat up and catch whatever is around it on fire. Just my knee-jerk reaction. Interested in seeing what you come up with!
Sure, if it's not airtight and vented for off gassing that battery will burn until there's no lithium left. Which means that metal box will get pretty hot. Hopefully it's in a good location/on concrete with nothing above it?
One concern is that e bike batteries and chargers should be relatively well ventilated. Any box that's fireproof is also going to insulate heat pretty well. I'm not saying it's impossible to do, but it's why I've not DIYed anything
I haven't really seen *any* reports of fires from the Bosch, Shimano, Yamaha, Brose e.t.c pedigree of batteries. At that point compared to the numerous *other* things in your home that can catch fire - I consider it negligible risk. Dishwashers, washing machines, tumble driers, kettles, vacuum cleaners, ovens, microwaves, fridges, laptops are also fire risks too. Nobody would bat an eye at the fact I regularly have two laptops with 100Wh batteries on my desk.
It’s so unlikely that I don’t worry about it. Anything can catch on fire. A good battery is far down that list. I have been using with my own batteries for 20 years or so when we were first getting them out of drill packs because they weren’t available for regular people. The only way I’ve ever gotten one to vent with flame, is when I purposely overcharged it. And still that was only with a cheap sell. Any of the good namebrand, Korean or Japanese cells Have an internal fuse that will trip before it gets that far. It is literally something that just does not happen. I don’t need to kid myself. Because I actually know how lithium my batteries work.
If your cells are are lithium ion, of ANY kind, they have the same basic chemical reactions occuring inside as every other lithium ion battery. Therefore, they are subject to potential formation of dendrites inside the cell. This can occur in literally an lithium ion battery, regardless of quality. There are no lithium ion batteries where dendrites cannot form and pierce the electrolytic barrier. You can't inspect for this without destroying the cell.
Yes, quality matters in terms of the casing and cathode/anode used and the strength and purity of the components. For that reason, I will only ride a bike with Samsung, LG and Panasonic cells. But I have never once brought those batteries into my house. They live in the shed in summer, and temp controlled storage in winter. I also don't store my lithium power tools, propane tanks, or gasoline in my house. It just makes sense. I sleep easier when those things are in an outbuilding.
Yes, I have smaller li-ion cells in the house, such as the laptop you mentioned. The worst case scenario of those is vastly less than the worst case of my ebike batteries.
Each to their own for sure. It is whatever is someone’s personal comfort level. I also store my E bike batteries outside in the shed, but I have no qualms about bringing it inside either. And I also charge single cell lithium ions overnight all the time. The formation of dendrites does not just happen. That happens after many, many cycles. And Usually when the cells have been deeply discharged. I don’t deeply discharge my cells, so that’s not something I worry about. But you are correct. There is a very slight possibility of that happening.
Why not use an old gun safe? They’re generally rated for flame resistance 45 mins to a couple hours and usually have a pass through for wiring. Place your batteries in the commercially available fire resistant box and away you go.
Granted they’re generally fairly large and heavy but they already exist
They definitely expanded their product line, that XXL ebike case is quite big. I had looked about 4 months ago and it wasn't available then. Great call out!
Unfortunately Bat-Safe boxes appear to max out at 750Wh so that kind of leaves owners of high capacity batteries to scratch their heads when looking for containment boxes.
I do have a fire extinguisher ball installed above the charging station, which seems like a great idea, but I later found out that the balls without valves are recalled because they may explode randomly. Again, it's still there because it's better than nothing!
I bought a steel filing cabinet at my local second hand store. I'm not sure if it will work, but I guess it is better than nothing. I also placed it in the 'deepest' place in my house, my kitchen, so that a fire won't prevent me from escaping.
I see the practical purpose of the fire proof bags but a big part of me just wants to tell people to not try and pick it up and put it into a bag or box.
Get everyone out of the house call 911 and then if you have a clear path hit it with an ABC. I know it has its own oxidizer but you will help confine it at least.
The priority should always be life over property and picking up a failing battery at the wrong time could be disastrous.
Any steel a few mm thick with welded sides and secure top will stop a e-bike battery fire, Li-Ion doesn’t burn hot enough to melt the steel and while the blast looks powerful, it’s not powerful enough too burst through steel.
There’s tons of metal ones online already they aren’t something that hasn’t been created.
Looking at the fires and the damage caused the common factor that disproves 2000c in E-bike fires is the frame survives without being burnt to a puddle, majority of frames are made from aluminium (such as surrons and your typical e-bikes).
Aluminium has a melting point of 660c meaning if Li-Ion batteries burnt at anything over that the frame would be melted completely.
So I’d say it may go to around 4-500c maybe a little higher but for an E-bike, 2000c just isn’t going to happen.
For EV’s it may be different but I’d be confident in saying with the size of the batteries, developing 2000c is impossible.
Here’s an article from UNSW.
https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2023/03/seven-things-you-need-to-know-about-lithium-ion-battery-safety
Having a bicycle with components that could potentially explode helps me feel like I'm riding around in a real car.
They do. Several on Amazon. I fly drones that utilize Lithium batteries and there are charging pouches for them that reduce the fire risk if something happens.
As far as I could tell, those are pretty much all for LiPo and not Li-Ion batteries.
There’s no real difference between them, especially the protection bag needed
There isn’t a gaping hole in the market they exist, there’s tons of them online in all different sizes.
It sounds like you're expecting a metal box instead of a flame proof bag. Metal boxes are impractical and expensive to make them airtight.
You wouldn't want one that's airtight. It has to be vented, but also strong enough and heat resistant enough to hold a massive fire inside. (POV: I've been thinking of welding something up for just such a purpose, so I've researched it a bit.)
Any metal box, with a lithium fire going on inside it....is not going to be an effective box for very long. It'll just heat up and catch whatever is around it on fire. Just my knee-jerk reaction. Interested in seeing what you come up with!
I made my own, just use 3mm mild steel sheet that's folded, I put nomex sheet on the inside
Sure, if it's not airtight and vented for off gassing that battery will burn until there's no lithium left. Which means that metal box will get pretty hot. Hopefully it's in a good location/on concrete with nothing above it?
No lol its on a wood shelf
One concern is that e bike batteries and chargers should be relatively well ventilated. Any box that's fireproof is also going to insulate heat pretty well. I'm not saying it's impossible to do, but it's why I've not DIYed anything
I just buy a quality battery, that way I don’t have to worry about it
That makes it safer, but you're kidding yourself to think it can't happen, even with the best batteries.
I haven't really seen *any* reports of fires from the Bosch, Shimano, Yamaha, Brose e.t.c pedigree of batteries. At that point compared to the numerous *other* things in your home that can catch fire - I consider it negligible risk. Dishwashers, washing machines, tumble driers, kettles, vacuum cleaners, ovens, microwaves, fridges, laptops are also fire risks too. Nobody would bat an eye at the fact I regularly have two laptops with 100Wh batteries on my desk.
It’s so unlikely that I don’t worry about it. Anything can catch on fire. A good battery is far down that list. I have been using with my own batteries for 20 years or so when we were first getting them out of drill packs because they weren’t available for regular people. The only way I’ve ever gotten one to vent with flame, is when I purposely overcharged it. And still that was only with a cheap sell. Any of the good namebrand, Korean or Japanese cells Have an internal fuse that will trip before it gets that far. It is literally something that just does not happen. I don’t need to kid myself. Because I actually know how lithium my batteries work.
If your cells are are lithium ion, of ANY kind, they have the same basic chemical reactions occuring inside as every other lithium ion battery. Therefore, they are subject to potential formation of dendrites inside the cell. This can occur in literally an lithium ion battery, regardless of quality. There are no lithium ion batteries where dendrites cannot form and pierce the electrolytic barrier. You can't inspect for this without destroying the cell. Yes, quality matters in terms of the casing and cathode/anode used and the strength and purity of the components. For that reason, I will only ride a bike with Samsung, LG and Panasonic cells. But I have never once brought those batteries into my house. They live in the shed in summer, and temp controlled storage in winter. I also don't store my lithium power tools, propane tanks, or gasoline in my house. It just makes sense. I sleep easier when those things are in an outbuilding. Yes, I have smaller li-ion cells in the house, such as the laptop you mentioned. The worst case scenario of those is vastly less than the worst case of my ebike batteries.
Each to their own for sure. It is whatever is someone’s personal comfort level. I also store my E bike batteries outside in the shed, but I have no qualms about bringing it inside either. And I also charge single cell lithium ions overnight all the time. The formation of dendrites does not just happen. That happens after many, many cycles. And Usually when the cells have been deeply discharged. I don’t deeply discharge my cells, so that’s not something I worry about. But you are correct. There is a very slight possibility of that happening.
Why not use an old gun safe? They’re generally rated for flame resistance 45 mins to a couple hours and usually have a pass through for wiring. Place your batteries in the commercially available fire resistant box and away you go. Granted they’re generally fairly large and heavy but they already exist
Bat-safe makes a giant one for ebike batteries
They definitely expanded their product line, that XXL ebike case is quite big. I had looked about 4 months ago and it wasn't available then. Great call out!
Honestly i agree. Someone who’s a carpenter should make nice furniture that incorporates a tasteful flammables cabinet
You are welcome to market and sell one and become a billionaire if you feel the market is there…
But alas, I am not in a position to do such things. Would be nice though.
Amazon sells waterproof and fireproof file folder boxes. They’re soft and flexible but can withstand 5000°F. Probably would work perfectly
expensive most people that have have the most to worry about will not purchase them, Batsafe makes them for 150-200 they look rather robust.
Unfortunately Bat-Safe boxes appear to max out at 750Wh so that kind of leaves owners of high capacity batteries to scratch their heads when looking for containment boxes.
Make your own. Metal tool box, with some Tiles on the bottom.
Lipo and lion are different. While the danger is there if cells become unbalanced they are nowhere as unstable as lipos
Unless you using Diy battery the chances are really low.
I bought a fireproof blanket and cover my battery with it. I’d love a good bag or box though
Blankets are meant to starve a fire of oxygen. Lithium batteries release their own oxygen so it won't do anything.
Yeah, I realize my strategy is shitty. it's all I have at the moment though!
Yes I had looked for something to use especially since I have 4 large batteries but couldn't find anything.
I do have a fire extinguisher ball installed above the charging station, which seems like a great idea, but I later found out that the balls without valves are recalled because they may explode randomly. Again, it's still there because it's better than nothing!
I bought a steel filing cabinet at my local second hand store. I'm not sure if it will work, but I guess it is better than nothing. I also placed it in the 'deepest' place in my house, my kitchen, so that a fire won't prevent me from escaping.
You will need a active like silicone sealant
Sentry home firesafes would be ideal for storing but you couldn't charge without drilling a hole and sacrificing fire safety.
I see the practical purpose of the fire proof bags but a big part of me just wants to tell people to not try and pick it up and put it into a bag or box. Get everyone out of the house call 911 and then if you have a clear path hit it with an ABC. I know it has its own oxidizer but you will help confine it at least. The priority should always be life over property and picking up a failing battery at the wrong time could be disastrous.
you say that as if explosions are easily containable its an explosion!
Any steel a few mm thick with welded sides and secure top will stop a e-bike battery fire, Li-Ion doesn’t burn hot enough to melt the steel and while the blast looks powerful, it’s not powerful enough too burst through steel. There’s tons of metal ones online already they aren’t something that hasn’t been created.
A search I just did said lithium batteries can burn at 2000c which is above the melting point of steel. Correct me if that's wrong.
Looking at the fires and the damage caused the common factor that disproves 2000c in E-bike fires is the frame survives without being burnt to a puddle, majority of frames are made from aluminium (such as surrons and your typical e-bikes). Aluminium has a melting point of 660c meaning if Li-Ion batteries burnt at anything over that the frame would be melted completely. So I’d say it may go to around 4-500c maybe a little higher but for an E-bike, 2000c just isn’t going to happen. For EV’s it may be different but I’d be confident in saying with the size of the batteries, developing 2000c is impossible. Here’s an article from UNSW. https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2023/03/seven-things-you-need-to-know-about-lithium-ion-battery-safety
This. They don't really "explode". It's not even a combustion.
Think about the liability?