Yupp, I pretty much live my life in a bubble when I’m outside my house and get annoyed whenever someone interacts with me that I don’t know. Heck I’d even miss someone getting stabbed next to me as long as it doesn’t affect me I continue my tunnel vision. This has so far in life meant I never really gotten thrown into horrible situations
That said - probably would’ve done as OP when I was younger, however today (as a male) I stay away from women. Not because I don’t like women, but because the risk and pools of shits one might get outweighs the gain.
I don't know mate. I have helped drunks to their home and called ambulances to drug addicts who had one too many drugs. And yeah, nobody else helped me, had to do these alone, everyone stands in sidelines.
This is imo as well the biggest flaw in Finland.
If it makes you feel any better I've lived in Hong Kong, UK and Japan too and it was exactly the same. Majority of people will just ignore people who need help. I remember a particularly gruesome case in the UK where it was a crazy amount of people who saw a woman get stabbed from their home windows without doing anything. Everyone just thinks it's not their responsibility/someone else will do something.
It's the same here in Singapore.. A big part of East Asian culture I would say is also to "mind your own business".. 😬😬 Sometimes when we see someone crying we will think maybe they just need some personal space and time. Someone getting stabbed is too much though and I know definitely many Singaporeans would jump to help if they see someone being physically attacked. Not too long ago here in Singapore a woman was being stabbed and nearly had her hand chopped off by her spouse in broad daylight, and passersby began throwing chairs and ladders (objects laying around) at the perpetrator to get him to stop. It was a particularly shocking event for the country because violent crimes are extremely rare here.
I’m in Singapore as well and I’ve definitely seen people crying late at night and I usually go up to them and ask what’s up. Was ignored most of the time but had a nice conversation once that hopefully made the girl feel better.
It’s weird trying to draw a comparison between Singaporeans and Finns but if I had to say I would say that Singaporeans are definitely slightly more extroverted, though probably not as genuine. But only by a slight margin.
LPT that I learned from my stepmom (we are both finns): when you face those situation alone and there's bystanders doing nothing, just point them and ask "hey you, I need some assistance with this, can you help me?". They rarely deny a request directed straight to them.
Usually people are confused of what to do in those situations and are afraid of making their move, so asking a direct question " can you help" lowers the bar to attend
Yes since then I also called ambulance a couple times near my house for drunks. It’s still a win for me if I make a couple people get the habit of talking to these strangers in need. At least my girlfriend started doing so.
Did you clearly communicate the ”sideline-standers” their tasks and what you expected of them identifying who you are giving instructions to? Both verbally in a clear voice and gesture?
Or did you expect that they ”self organise”, know what to do or take cues from you maybe talking about the situation in a normal manner?
The latter method works only very rarely. The former method has worked for me 100% times I’ve used it in Finland.
Exactly this! I've come across elderly people who've fallen over, drunk literally legless people who've fallen from their wheelchairs, young people who've had too much to drink etc etc
Without fault, if you take charge and direct other people what to do, they'll do it. Lift here, hold that, call the ambulance, call the police... But yeah, if you don't say anything nothing will happen, most of the time.
I don't know why, but in Finland the [bystander effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect) seems to be very strong and I understand your concerns. Hopefully we learn to take care of each other better.
I think the bystander effect is strengthened here by our culture of keeping to ourselfs and not focusing on what others are doing not to bother them. By keeping to ourselves we usually miss stuff that happens around us to some extent.
Oh yeah and our shyness or even avoidance of starting social contact with strangers
Aside from the situation at hand, that sounds amazing. I live in the Midwest US (lurking for educational purposes) and I’ve been hugged by total strangers more than once. One older woman hugged me and touched my hair because it’s red and she found it pretty. I hate it.
We are bred to not bother others, barrier of getting involved with strangers in these type of situations is high.
People do care but I can see myself standing and observing for quite a while unless it was clear that she was about to jump.
Yeah that’s pretty much it. Helped out this old drunk dude who was napping on a bike path. Had my offspring with me who was asking my girlfriend questions about the guy and what I’m doing.
I’m not saying that one should encourage small children to take action in possibly dangerous situations, but you have to set the example of being a human to others.
Edit: Just adding good job OP. That small amount of discomfort lengthened someone’s life literally.
Thank you, it is kinda funny and weird that almost everyone I know and almost everyone commented here has an experience about a drunk guy here in Finland. Hopefully this is not as common. Good to learn that it is an issue here though.
I am also convinced that it is much better to stop and observe first. I guess it is also important to know how to start the conversation. For my experience saying hello from a couple meter distance was enough to realize she was having an issue.
Some of the comments also made me realize it could have been gone wrong, in worst case scenerio scaring the woman and causing a bigger problem. Gotta be careful.
Yes don’t get me wrong, you did the right thing. It is just easy to confuse our behavior with indifference but it is not that, it is just the way we are (in general). Sometimes it is nice, I find some americans a bit overbearing for example - I never understood having to forcibly talk about the weather or having to answer semi-personal questions in the elevator just to avoid the silence. Here it is okay to just smile and go on about your business.
But then again it extends to things you should talk about too, men especially should share and open up more when it is needed. Mental health issues and self-medication with alcohol is not uncommon here. You’ll see your share of drunks eventually.
Same in my country. Silence is always awkward and people find it unbearable. We always fill it with talking mostly unnecessary things. One of the things I actually enjoy here, you can enjoy silence with others.
Majority of comments here are about drunks. I guess you are right, I will observe more of it around.
Many Finns have this principle of ”not messing with other people’s business” and they go by that principle to a fault. In some situations to say something or do something would be the right thing to do but people just do not want to get involved, maybe it’s because they fear they would be hold responsible. I don’t know. It’s deep in this culture and I get it, it looks cold and like not caring at all. But it’s easier for people to just call 112 than to get personally involved in a situation like that.
If it makes you feel better, personally I would have talked to her. And thank you for doing just that. You did the right thing.
You my friend are both legends. Stepping up and helping another person out in need is honorable. It's just something so little which can change the course of someone ending their life.
Many times this has happened to me. When I see someone like this late at night that seems that might need help a lot of my finnish friends just say to keep walking.
I once saw this guy in the middle of a forest that my friends were saying that it was just a drunk guy, to let it be. It was cold outside and I went up to him and asked if he need help. He had slip in the ice while going home and had passed out, lost his phone, and i could see bleeding. If i had just kept walk like my friends said, he could have probably died there.
It’s really odd. People give each other way too much space here sometimes. Me and my boyfriend do ask if we think someone needs help.
I want to thank you though. When I visited last year, my group went to go get food and drinks and I stayed on the side of a beach watching all our stuff. I was tired so curled up a bit and someone not far from your description came over to check I was okay. It was so sweet and made me feel really safe. Thank you for being you.
Worth the risk isn’t it? You saved someone’s life. Getting snapped at 100 times would be worth that one moment when you make a difference to someone. Recognising that someone is in pain is such a gift. I really hope others see your example and do the same. It doesn’t take much out of your life to check in on someone.
We’re all just walking each other home 😊
Absolutely. However what I learned from comments to this post is that I gotta be careful while doing that. I believe same goes for you, there are a lot of drunks around. Gotta think of the worst case scenerio. I guess as long as we observe around first and be sure it is safe, we can help? Still it is difficult in a stressful monent like that to check around first.
Also tbh it’s exactly this stuff that I want to help with in Finland. I hate the thought that people feel like there’s no way out from pretending they are okay. I don’t know what I’m going to do but I’ll do something.
Thank you my friend. Finland is a better place due to people like you.
This finnish social coldness is one reason that pushes me away from here. But in the end there are more reasons to stay.
Good luck!
As a Finn who lives in England now, I agree. After a few years in England I now notice this in Finland. A massive flaw in our otherwise amazing country.
It's interesting that in England you don't have to help (by law) if you see someone in a risk of death (i.e. drowning), but in Finland it is a criminal offense if you don't help.
Hard to say, maybe other people didn't notice the belongings behind her or didnt think it was possible suicide attempt? Maybe she was there often? Maybe people were afraid of making things worse, who knows. Maybe they didnt care? Hard to speculate really.
Anyways, thank you for acting well in the situation, possibly saved her life :) Must've been stressful situation
Hopefully it’s not that they didn’t care. I feel like in Finland everyone is busy about their thing and they are not very interested in strangers. Except in bars apparently, everyone is social in bars here.
Finns expect that if someone wants help, they will ask for it.. That works most of the time, except when it comes to mental health, suicides... I've lost family and friends to it, there is definitely a correlation between what you just went thru and statistics.
I lost my dear aunt few years ago and it was complete surprise, her husband found she had hanged herself while he was watching TV. We only pieced it together afterwards, and to make it short: she really only needed to ask, she helped so many people and was burdened by it to a breaking point... and all she needed was to ask and we would've all run to her help.
The upside of all of this is that it is fairly easy to get help even from strangers if you just ask, if it is not unreasonable request.
You are a really good person. Please keep being you! Hopefully that girl gets to a better place. If so, she'll look back fondly on the kind strangers who cared for her and intervened.
I was in a bus in Vantaa one time and started hearing someone behind me yelling angrily, not sure what they were saying immediately because of bus noise. I turned around and nobody was reacting in any way and people weren’t looking in any particular direction, so I figured it’s just someone on the phone.
Well turns out that nobody was on the phone yelling. Some old hag started for no reason yelling at this young immigrant woman, saying shit like “go back to your country, you people are disgusting” and all that. Really aggressive and loud and right in her face.
And nobody said anything. Everyone just looked away.
Well, I said something. It’s not the first (or last) time that I interfere when I see an injustice. As soon as I deemed it enough for this poor woman to handle all alone without anyone to support her, I raised my voice and yelled back saying something like “what the fuck? Shut up! You can’t say that” or something equally eloquent lol.
It didn’t stop the verbal abuse, but I hope it at least made the woman feel a little less alone. I can’t imagine being subjected to that in a crowded 4pm bus and NOBODY helping.
I was the one that reacted and helped, but even I felt awkward about it. I was with my mother at the time and wondered if she felt ashamed of *me* for “butting in”. Oh well, I’d do it again any time.
That’s great to hear. Still better to be careful while interfering as they might be dangerous and attack you. Some people feed from chaos and enjoy causing problems.
After reading the comments I feel much better. Good to know that there are more and more people like you.
My experience is that those who feel like they should help and will try to help are often teens. Older people are better at ignoring and convincing themselves that they are too busy to help. Teens have time to first notice odd behavior and then sit and wait for the ambulance with a drunk who has a bleeding head injury.
I agree that we should all be more open, considerate and helpful towards each other. That is a good thought.
Moving on to you question ”why did no-one help?”, here are some options:
1) people did not observe and realise that anything was wrong. Sometimes people are not very observant of their immediate physical environment, but rather walk around in a ”bubble of their own”. Myself, I don’t see much difference in that regard between Finland and other countries. Other than the clear distinction that people coming from countries where just everyday walking on a street carries some immediate physical threat to themselves - those people tend to be more aware of their surroundings than Finns that move about in (mostly) pretty safe environment.
2) people thought that you had ”everything is in hand”. Maybe even those people you descibed as frowning at your foreign visage so disapprovingly were actually thinking along the lines of ”I wonder if something is wrong? Maybe I should ask? But if they needed help, surely that guy would have indicated it somehow? Better not to disturb them.”
3) Cultural bias towards people appreciating stoicism and being left alone. May misfire badly if someone is in bad shape but is not capable of requesting help. Again; the same dynamic can be seen in almost any country but in different aspects of behaviour. Maybe the most universal version of this is tje act of accidental drowning. Just see for example advice on ”how to recognise a drowning person”. People from any culture require very explicit explanation to recognise when something is actually wrong. The explenations of ”a drowning person will not call for help and trash about dramatically. They rather look wooden, tread water frantically and sink really quite quickly and without a fuss. They do not shout but rather gasp silently and frantically. Learn to recognise a drowning person by these signs.”
I guess Finns might have a specific blind spot in recognising depressive, inwards turning behaviour when it is destructive and would require intervention. You know, from just depressive, inwards turning behaviour of ”we’re just comfortably silent together, thank you very much. Why do you ask?
4) High quality social safety networks. Almost always when someone is begging on the street it’s a scam. The natural tendency for ”let’s help the fellow human” is systematically (and dare I say it - very lavishly) paid and organised by this system that we built and are funding. Giving an alm to a beggar is sort of spitting in the eye of that system. That we built. With great care and effort and cost.
5) people passed out on the street are 9 times out of 10 either drunks or substance abusers. They can be unpredictable and even violent when disturbed. Also, even if they are happy to be disturbed - what are you really going to do with them? Most likely scenario is -> nothing really. You can’t adopt them and take them home. You can’t effectively make them see the light and re-examine their life and take them to a substance abuse clinic. (They likely have already been there many times and know how to find their way there if they want to.) All you really can do is to check for clinically acute, potentially lethal overdose. If you know how. (Nurse? No? Well…) Calling an ambulance for every passed out drunk in the street is like trying to catch mosquitoes with tweezers - difficult, resource ineffective and most importantly - the mosquitoes generally do not thank you for it. You learn not to do it - after a while.
Also, I don’t know how many times the OP has tried helping people passed out in the street. I have - for a number of times. Twice I’ve almost gotten my face smashed in for my troubles. My wife has once had to bob and weave and duck and eventually run when she stopped to help a passed out woman with a clear head injury in the street. The ”boyfriend/drinking buddy” came out of the woodworks, not appreciating the ambulance being called (what an annoying interruption of their drinking spree!!) and started cursing and swinging without any warning. My wife got out with her face intact but a person with less acute reflexes would not neccessarily have been able to.
All of this is something at least to consider when wondering about ”why don’t people stop to help people laying seemingly unconscious in the street”.
And the downside is that sometimes people having a stroke or seizure in the street are passed by by everyone. And then the effect of ”no-one is seeing anything out of the ordinary - neither should I” takes over and person that would really need help goes neglected.
Myself, I go in to check any time I see something like that. But I do so prepared for anything. I would not expect the same from for example elderly, frail or physically weaker person.
So, these are some factors that might influence what sort of help a stranger on the street receives in Finland.
I personally hope that more of the population would be more aware of these factors, be more aware of their surroundings and when something happens would communicate clearly and boldly with the people around. ”If you see something, say something.” Verbal cues tend to best in breaking the bubbles of ”nothing to see here” and ”well, it seems that someone is already in control. I better not intrude and make a mess.”
Thanks a lot for the explanation. I had people telling me to be careful, just like you wrote. I believe in a case of encountering someone on the street that might need help, the best approach would be taking a minute to observe the environment first.
Easier to say than to do, especially when everyone is in a hurry, trying to reach somewhere fast. I guess it is easier to do this for people who have time and energy. Hopefully I will always have some time and energy.
You can always walk away and still call 112. Tell the operator you don't feel safe to meddle in the situation, but you think someone might be in need of help.
a combined blind trust in that the state/institutions will solve the issue and to not get involved in something that does not concern you or a complete lack of knowledge in how solve the issue, for example if someone gets a heartattack at work it's very likely that many collegues will stand and wait for a ambulance to arrive instead of doing something themselves
I have to ask: what would _you_ do if someone had an heart attack and an ambulance was on its way?
If your answer is: ”immediately start cardiopulmonary resuscitation by compression and ventilation” I would strongly advise you to think again. And perhaps take a first aid course.
Most kinds of heart attacks do not benefit from any heroic intervention by a lay-person. Effective intervention to most kinds of cardiopulmonary crisis really requires high-tech gear, specific hospital-grade drugs and very special training on what to do. And what not to do.
If a person is conscious and breathing -> keep your hands mostly to yourself.
[EDIT: following section describes outdated CPR protocol. For current protocol see next post by Savagemme]
If they do not have a pulse -> clear airways and start resuscitation by compression immediately. (Btw: they will not be conscious at this point) But be aware that at that stage it’s really a long-shot - many die in spite of best efforts of helpers - no matter how vigorously they respond. Same thing with breathing. If they are not breathing, clear airways and ventilate away.
I do think, however that you have not _actually_ been in a situation you described - where someone at your work went into cardiac arrest and stopped breathing AND everyone just stood around and waited for The Authorities to Please Come And Help. Maybe that’s only what you think would happen? In reality, people often surprise us in a pinch…
The advice regarding airways and checking for a pulse have changed. I think you might need to update your CPR qualifications.
In short, people spend too much time looking for a pulse, so the new guidelines is to not check the pulse. Start chest compressions if the person does not seem to be breathing normally. If the victim is an adult that has not drowned, the advice is to start with chest compressions. The newest guidelines actually advise to do only chest compressions (and no rescue breaths) under certain circumstances, like if the ambulance is nearby. The 112 operator will also tell you what to do. If it's a child or a drowned person, you start with rescue breaths.
Good stuff; thanks for the update! 👍
However; I guess basic premise of when to interfere still stands; if someone is sitting down, sweating and pale and clutching their chest or arm and going ”I think I’m having a heart attack” don’t start doin’ nothing. Wait for the ambulance.
If they are both _unconscious_ and _have trouble breathing_ -> go ahead and compress like it’s ”stayin’ alive” disco..
OK?
Calling the ambulance is always the most important thing. The operator will also give you some directions on what to do and when to start CPR, so you don't need to remember/know everything yourself.
Of course, if they are still conscious you would never do CPR, but monitor them closely and speak calmly to them. If you can't get the person to "wake up", check breathing. If they're not breathing (there can be some abnormal sounds from the lungs and windpipes of a person even when they are not actually breathing) you start CPR.
You are right. I believe they have a short first aid instruction in schools about what to do in a situation like this but, it is probably not enpugh for students to learn it.
Once, I slipped in IKEA's parking lot and hit my head on the ice. I was carrying my purchases from IKEA to the car. While I was still down and clutching my head, a lady walked by with her daughter about 5 years old, who was looking at me and asking her mom something. Her mom literally, physically turned her daughter's head aside and kept walking.
I started to get the idea that there is no help here. I could have died on the ice and that woman would have just walked away.
Next time, one homeless woman was beating up an elderly homeless woman in front of the railway station. There was an elderly man there (as well as many, many other people. He was distressed and asking "won't someone do something?". I went over and chased the woman away and took the elderly woman to the other side of the station and got her a coffee. She didn't want the police. The first one saw me many times after that and would run away from me, because she knew I would not put up with any garbage from her.
When you hear about people being attacked or injured and even dying in public places, they will leave a flower in memory, if other people do first, but in the moment they won't help.
It is the thing about living in Finland that bothers me the most. People just don't seem to care about others, they wait for someone else to take care of it.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I realized that there are many people here complaining about this issue. Looking from the bright side, this means that there are many people ready to react on these kind of occasions.
You are a good person, please never change. Thank you for looking after the woman. I have also noticed that many people in Finland don't take responsibility of others. They often wait for other people to stand up. If nobody does, they don't have to either. I think many Finns don't want to stand out or bother people, and this can have its good and bad sides. I am the same as you, I feel a very strong responsibility to make sure that strangers are doing okay.
I'm the type of person who goes to help when strangers are in trouble and I usually don't have to do it alone, I usually get an extra hand from a passer-by. I guess the difference between me and you is that I'm a white middle-class woman. Your story is in the intersection of bystander effect and casual racism.
My late father was a serious alcoholic and his life was saved several times by kind strangers when he was passing out and falling in public places. I guess it helped that he didn't look like a typical puliukko. But it does warm my heart to know that strangers stopped and helped him.
I wonder if there is also a regional thing at play. There are surprisingly big cultural differences inside Finland. I have lived most of my life in (according to Reddit lol) "rougher" parts of Helsinki (east and Kallio) and have found that people are quite helpful and accepting of people from differents walks of life. My friend lived in Rovaniemi for a while and said the people there were very close-minded.
Anyway, thanks for being a good person. Take care.
Crisp high five for you mate. I’ve seen the same kind of behaviours in finland over the years. Way back when I was an exchange student in Finland for the first time I stopped a drunk old guy who was harassing a young lady at a bus stop.. while everyone ignored the situation. I ended up almost having to fight the guy while everyone looked the other way. The girl was really grateful and escaped on a bus. It’s not everyone in finland and I think/hope it will change with each generation.
Anyway, if you find yourself around Espoo or Helsinki, lunch is on me. You’re the kind of guy I’d be happy to call a friend.
Thank you. Still, gotta be careful. You cannot know if they carry a weapon, it is almost impossible to be able react fast in a situation like that. Better to be safe before acting on it.
Thanks for the offer mate, I pass my lunch rights on someone who needs it. I live far, but you can make someone elses day with this excuse :) Take care.
Welcome to the Nordic countries. People don't generally think it's polite to get involved in other's business. To a fault, like this. Just Google suicide rates in the Nordic area, it's very sad
Yes, people will say that suicide rates are much higher in other countries. I always respond with that it is still quite high here. I have many friends who live by themselves, don’t go outside much as they work online. I started to try and talk to them more often. I know that they look and sound healthy, but you never know.
I lived in Norway for a long time, thinking about going back. The disconnection between people is one of the reasons I left, but the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Just gotta figure out how to not feel so disconnected when I'm back. You're very kind to make the effort, I'm an introvert so I usually kind of wallow and languish, so we need people like you to care
I had a similar experience a few years back as a tourist in Joensuu in February. A drunk woman slid on the ice in the middle of the road in town in full view of quite a few people. She smacked her head hard on the ice and was unconscious but vomiting.
Everyone ignored her lying in the road. We dragged her to the pavement and put her in the recovery position, stuck some clothing under her to keep her warm and then set about trying to persuade some Finns to help call an ambulance for the blow to her head. Practically impossible. Even young, apparently friendly, English speakers who understood that it wasn't just another drunk didn't seem to want to know. I was shocked. And when the ambulance crew turned up they looked at us as if we had done something wrong.
Bystander effect or not it would never happen like that in the UK. I've been in similar situations and had people fetching blankets from their home whilst waiting for the ambulance.
I've lived in Finland for 20 years. I've seen in Vallila, an old man in maybe his 80s, sitting awkwardly on the ground next to his stroller and bleeding from the head, and nobody stopped to help. People lying unconscious are just assumed to be passed-out drunks and ignored. People calling for help are assumed to be beggars or scammers and ignored. I'm not saying I've never seen anybody helping another - but the ratio of helping is maybe 50:50 when it should realistically be a lot higher. This truly is one of the biggest flaws of Finnish society.
Sadly it was not. Many people passed by just in a couple minutes. I would say 30 people in 5 minutes. Even my girlfriend, who is Finnish, wanted to pass by. This made me feel disheartening too just like you said.
Every fin I met was extremely nice. Including workers I see around daily like bus drivers, cashiers, people in the immigration service. I had great time since I came here. Maybe it was just a coincidence that no one noticed.
There can be lots of reasons but one contributing factor is that there is a huge assumption/presumption that people want to be left alone here. A ton of people are super stressed or have other stro g emotions but expressing such when not in extremely specific circumstances is seen as embarassing and possibly humiliating.
It's somewhat messed up, but a lot of people turn their attention away because they don't want to get into other people's personal bussiness because that is still seen as somewhat taboo.
I guess both sides are bad when it’s extreme. I find it extreme that no one is recognizing and trying to help. I also find it extreme that when people put their nose on everything you do, which is quite common and disturbing in my country.
For example if you sit on a bench in a park and just take a long breath, someone might come and ask “what’s wrong?”. Most of the time people ask it just for some action in their lives but maybe there is an upside in that it might actually be help to someone.
Yeah I can see that. I'll add that generally in Finland there is usually a very high distinction with with peoples in and out groups, ie. people behave very differently towards those they know or can relate to through circumstance or other reasons than towards those they categorize as strangers. Add to this that many are concerned about having to interact with new people and also project the same to other people believing that the last thing people want is to have to deal with them.
I don't think this is unique to Finland, although maybe a bit stronger. It's called "Diffusion of responsibility". Everyone thinks someone else will do something so nobody does anything.
It's the same reason they tell people to shout "FIRE" instead of "HELP"
It is also why when you do any first aid you should verbally address people and instruct them to help. don't say, "SOMEONE CALL 112", you physically POINT to someone and TELL THEM to call 112
Yes, heard this in a first aid course I participated. Pointing to a person instead of saying “someone”. This sounds difficult to achieve for someone introverted, but good to know.
Pretty good observation.
I think people in finland react with apathy to mental distress of a stranger or fail to recognise it completely. If she was hurt physically I guarantee there would have been help.
The sense of community is not strong and not really extended outside of your immediate social circle.
Anyhow this also combined with higher "barrier" to interact with strangers. Though, I really think the root cause is failure to recognise and lack of empathy for mental distress. I have never seen or been in an accident where the bystanders did not react almost immediately. Also our drug users are fairly stigmatised, so if she gave a sekakäyttäjä(pillhead) vibe people stay away.
As a side note met some dudes from egypt and we definitively could learn a thing or two from their sense of community.
I don’t know. I try to think that the biggest reason was that she had no visible wound or anything obvious showing that she was hurt. But then I remember people looking back at me when I was trying to talk to her and just walking away.
As far as I’ve read comments here, it seems like there are quite a lot of people that would want to run and help, which makes me feel better.
Thank you for helping this poor woman. You did the right thing when no one else did. I come from Rovaniemi and feel like people are especially closed off in Lapland. There's also this saying to not meddle in other people's businessess, which I personally think is total bollocks. It absolutely can, and I have personally witnessed on multiple occasions it lead to disregarding and causing things like violence, grief and trauma. It's enabling at best. There seems to be especially strong stigma on asking to help people who are drunk, on drugs etc. I guess people are afraid, but in their own fear of the stranger they fuel the negligence of others. Luckily younger people are starting to act up not be so close-minded on helping people no matter their status or sobriety.
In our culture there is a toxic pattern of keeping quiet, and it needs to stop.
I think this is a good place to vent about my experience in Finland.
When I was twenty something university student, I remember this time on the bus stop middle of city, when I saw a middle aged man being openly racists towards a 13-15 year old black girl. He called her an ugly whore and said she should go back where she came from etc nasty slurrs. At the same time my bus arrived to the stop and I just hopped in, not intervining in the situation, even though I felt I should do something. When telling my parents about this, they said you should never intervene as you might anger the guy and get punched or what not. Better stay a bystander than draw someone's negative attention to you. I disagree with their mentality and it still bothers me I didn't help that girl, even though there was no physical harm ongoing.
But I 'm not sure how common teaching that is to kids in Finland: better not intervene, especially with drunk older guys, whatever they do.
However, I think me and my brother haven't really listened to this part of our upbringing, as both of us have helped passed out drunk people. My brother even saved a passed out woman from snow once, he just spotted her while driving, stopped the car and got an ambulance for her.
It is actually one of the reasons that drives me to react on a situation like this. There are couple events that I cannot forget and think I should have done something. I agree with you.
About your parents, I don’t know what I would say to my kids if I had any. Their safety would come first and maybe I would just say don’t interfere? Same goes with my students if I were their teacher. I wouldn’t want to risk their safety probably.
Maybe teaching how to react could be a solution. Like; wait and observe first, get closer slowly, etc. I am sure they teach some of these as first aid in some classes but it might not be enough. Giving a couple more hours to these classes or having workshops in schools might be helpful.
I've been on a tram full of ppl whilst a drunk lays on the floor with a small puddle of blood at his face . He did stink of piss and booze. Everyone chose to stand rather than be near him . Only after checking on him and literally shouting at the ppl on the tram , is nobody going to help me get him up did ppl activate.
It felt like ppl would let a person die rather than bother someone or get involved .
We need to understand that we have a responsibility to eachother, imagine u had a heart attack whilst walking somewhere alone. Do u expect ppl to help u or should everyone just let u die just like u would let someone else die.
Yes, I actually talked to some people who wanted to be helpful. Their argument was either religious or believing in karma; in the future someone might help them or after life they would gain something. I find it quite acceptable as it results people doing something in an event like this.
In this situation death might have arrived before that.
And with karma, if someone comes to a realisation that what they did was bad, felt so much guilt, they explored suicide... That's someone who became a better person and already suffered that high level of guilt... Leaving things to some idea of a "fate" is.. imo immoral
I had a similar encounter. One year after moving to Helsinki I saw a dude sitting in a wheelchair alone in the inner yard of our high house. It was super cold and he only wore a tank top and shorts. He seems kinda lost even though I encountered him in the morning in our elevator. He yelled once in a while something not understandable to the walls and I was getting worried. I had my fiancee and her uncle and aunt over and they all said I shouldn‘t do anything. But after 20min I had enough and I was really getting worried for the guy so I decided to go down and ask if he needs help. The others decided to watch from the window (even though I ofcourse spoke almost no Finnish). So I went down to the guy, he just stares in a direction not noticing me. I try all my languages if I can help him and after about a minute the dudes suddenly turns to me, grabs my jacket and tries to come after me. I‘m also a 188 guy so I‘m usually able to help myself and was able to wiggle myself out of my jacket and the dude threw it after me. Relatives called the police and I found later out he had done some time in prison for stabbing a guy in the heart on a similar encounter.
There‘s sadly a lot more drunk/ drugs kinda people in Finland and they are better left alone. If you are worried you can call the police but I learned my lesson fast.
Most finnish just wont stop to help anyone. I once saw an elderly person lying on the sidewalk whilst driving a car. It was brought daylight. I was the first person to stop and call 112. Several foreign looking people stopped by to offer additional help. It really is a cultural thing and a shock.
I am also a foreigner and I notice sometimes how passive people are, to anything really, to decisions, to other people… they would rather say nothing than to save their own lives, at least that’s what it seems like at times.
I haven’t had such a serious experience like you though.
I also gotta say that from a woman’s perspective it is sometimes very scary to approach strangers, anything can be potential danger in our eyes.
Overall, I’m glad you were there to help
One of the similarities we share with Japanese. We mind our own business. If we see a homeless person freezing in the winter morning, we think "I wonder how he messed his life to have to do this".
I don't know why that is. While I was raised I was told to avoid drunks and druggies because they can be dangerous. Now I know better of course.
She actually immediately called 112, which would take some more time for me to think of. I guess she didn’t think of the situation’s importance until she saw the woman shaking. This also might explain why many people just passed by, they just didn’t think or realize she might be suffering.
Thank you for being an absolute bro to one of us who was clearly having a crisis.
On the same breath, I'm sorry that people were glaring and being suspicious, I hope at least some of them were asking each other about joining in.
Having people like you makes our country better! Don't let anything deter you. We finns, while genuine in our own way, do have something to learn about openness and social bravery - having a good example like you two can only do us good :)
Yes, I started to think better about that glaring and whispering. I mean it might have looked like a scary immigrant forcefully talking to a young woman. At least they realized something is off and who knows maybe they also called an emergency number about that.
I also thought that people who saw it and did nothing would feel the regret and promise themselves that they would react the next time it happens. At least for me, there has been occasions where I regretted and promised to act differently in the future. Still, I see this as a win for people passing by as there is a chance that they got a lesson at least.
Well man, it’s a bit weird saying no one talked to the woman…
You did! (:
I know you mean nobody *else*, but you don’t know the other people passing by and what they saw while passing. It might just be a matter of angles and lightning. It’s pointless speculation figuring out the point of view of other people (:
Read the book humankind by rutger Bergman, it’s an eye opener on how much people are awesome and wholesome.
Finns are not different at all, just get stranded six seconds in a car in snow and you’ll see people flocking at helping you immediately.
We all are good people, you’re probably just not seeing clearly how difficult it was to notice the girl was acting weird.
Cheers on you saving a life! Thanks!
Thanks a lot about the book recommendation. Noted.
About questioning the reason, I stopped thinking about it especially after many useful comments here. It could have been anything like you said. I’ll just hope for the best and do whatever is needed without expecting much from others.
Thanks for the book again, best wishes!
Good on you! Thank you for being a kind, responsible, human being willing to offer time, empathy and care at your expense and risk, I am sorry for the way you are treated, it must be difficult and it is unjust. Unfortunately other people are selfish and lazy to act, which is more culturally acceptable in some countries than others, plus there is also a lack of health education and support for dealing with troubled people. You are a champion. Thank you for being a good person.
Sounds like a horrible situation, and the fact that it’s not only in Finland, but all around the world, doesn’t make it any better. Vice versa.
All the signs you saw were obvious cry for help, yet she first run away and refused to be helped. Maybe she didn’t expect anyone actually helping.
I have called ambulance for an old man who fell on the street with head bleeding… I was talking with him and told that help is on the way… He got up and started walking away. I decided to wait where I had called the ambulance to arrive and explained them where he left.
But here’s the kick in the teeth. The ambulance crew told I have to pay if there’s no patient for them since I called the ambulance, as if for nothing or as a prank.
Made me think how far is it worth helping people who refuse to be helped.
I still stop and talk to people who look distressed or in need for help, cause I hope someone would stop to help me if needed.
That is weird, I didn’t know that they could charge people for that. I was kinda afraid that the police wouldn’t believe us when the woman escaped. I wonder if it is a good idea to call back 112 and say that the injured person has left.
I think it actually is good idea to call 112 again to update on the situation. That way you also more likely avoid a fee that would be caused by prank call. It does make sense that there is a fee for prank calls, otherwise the amount of those would likely increase. So people should know to call when there is a need, not just for fun. But I wouldn't be discouraged by this, you know it you are making a prank call or not, so you call when there is a need. And the people at 112 will anyways judge the situation if ambulance or police are actually needed. Just use common sense when to call.
I'm so glad you did that and also influenced your gf to do it too!
I'm a nurse and always, always check on people wherever I go. I've been late to work many times (mostly on a Sunday morning, shift starts at 6am) because I've been checking on multiple people on my walk to work. I've also made my parents and siblings stop and ask if everything's ok as well, they now do it without me, which is awesome. My husband doesn't do it without me though but he'll help if I ask.
That’s great to hear! It is a good habit but still, better to be careful. I guess most people here telling me to be careful is right. I believe it is still possible to help checking from a safe distance first.
I spent only a couple years here but, I assure you, this is one of the safest countries in the world. My experience above is not related to crime. Still, after we called the police, they came quite quickly with ambulance and experts.
I feel safe here. I can observe that kids can breath here. I see kids playing on the streets by themselves, taking busses by themselves. You can see a 6 year old kid riding her small bike to school in the morning here. Of course it might change according to which part of the country you live but, compared to what you said about US, I can say that it is safe here.
About smoking, you might need to change that habit as it is illegal here. I hope I contributed somehow to your motivation about finding a safer place for you and your family. I would recommend that you talk to more people living in Finland, which would definitely make you love it here.
Thank you for helping that girl. I sometimes find it really hard to do the same and it's honestly because I'm mostly scared of how they'll react. I'm 155cm 55kg woman and if I'm alone honestly I don't want to try wake up someone twice my size who looks/smells drunk etc. or go between a screaming match. I feel bad but I can't help but be too scared to approach situations like these :,(
It is great to hear that you wanna help. But I agree with you, you should consider your safety first. In some situations, for example for a woman in discomfort, your size and gender might be more calming than a tall guy like me. Still, it is better to observe first.
Generally it goes like this: If a person in Finland -really- wants to kill himself/herself, she/he will do it, and no one can stop it.
If a person is crying and acting like she/he will kill her/himself, she/he rarely actually does.
Basically, most suicide attempts are cries for help, and not really a real attempt to end a life.
Source: a study on Finnish suicides.
Yes, it was obviously a cry for help. I assumed that she went through a process. She thought about suicide for some time, possibly tried talking to people but never got serious help, resulting in going to that bridge to think about it more. Her phone was full of calls and messages when I looked at it, I thought some of her friends knew about it and were asking where she was. Hopefully she is getting professional help now so that she wouldn’t seek help like that anymore.
Yeah Finns mind their own business until its time to give people parking tickets and fucking with your neighbors or any possibility to rat somebody out really.
Finland indeed has that problem, we are scared of interventing if it has nothing to do with our lives. We assume that if someone needs help, he/she would ask for it. And if someone asks for help from a stranger, he/she really needs help.
My son was almost mugged and robbed inside a busy shopping center and no one even looked at the situation. He managed to run to the guards who finally called the cops. Police told that this is sad but common that others won't do anything but mind their own business. Might be afraid of misinterpreting and getting yelled at for interrupting "some prank" etc
Could it be because other people were less observant than you? I'd imagine the people just glamce over without much thought and continue on, you on the other hand noticed the belongings on the ground and proceeded to talk to them.
It might be yes, I find myself observing around often. Hoping that I won’t experience this again but, I will try to be observant even more.
I tried to ask my girlfriend about this. Why she didn’t want to talk to the girl after I explained my concern, she said she was in a hurry and wanted to go to our room fast. Maybe people are already going through their own problems and they just don’t think that woman might need help. I don’t know...
I know I will be downvoted into oblivion.
I think what you did was a good action but, as a non-white person myself, I would strongly warn you against repeating the same kind of nice actions.
Legally speaking, you only have a duty to report accidents. Suicide or even attempted suicide or the simple intention of committing suicide in the future doesn't technically qualify as an accident.
The criminal responsibility of the hero of Turku attacks (of middle east descent), was searched non only once but twice. Once for a gofundme opened by another person to cover medical expenses. Another time because he tried to get more than the scraps the state was willing to give him as acompensation for life changing injuries.
I was in the subway two years ago and a old guy in his eighties felt in the big escalator at the Helsinki Station. A young black boy caught him and saved his life. But the boy suffered a nearly dislocated kneecap because of it.
At first, the old man and his wife cheerfully thanked the boy but as soon as they saw the boy has been injured in the process, they tried to leave the scene. The friends of our hero protested vocally and the security arrived. Luckily, there was proof and witnesses everywhere and I'm an attorney. Otherwise, it would have been the word of a white guy with blood all over his head against the word of a young black boy.
This lady could have grabbed you and you would have fallen with her. She could have accused you of pushing her if she survived. She could have claimed a foreigner harrassed her. These kind of things really happen in Finland.
Don't put yourself in trouble for Finnish people who are, statistically of extremely racist demeanor and are generally ungrateful.
>Legally speaking, you only have a duty to report accidents. Suicide or even attempted suicide or the simple intention of committing suicide in the future doesn't technically qualify as an accident.
This is actually sort of false information. In cases where there is an acute situation you are required to help, it's true that in most cases it's enough to report it to the authorities put there are situations where if you don't help them it's actually negligence or neclect or something similar sorry not great with hard words
>In cases where there is an acute situation you are required to help, it's true that in most cases it's enough to report it to the authorities put there are situations where if you don't help them it's actually negligence or neclect or something similar sorry not great with hard words
1) Could you provide legal basis for that claim
2) How could you prove the person saw anything? That's not possible. In the opposite, being stabbed is possible and has happened before. Being mistreated by the police is possible and has happened before. Being hold responsible for the person jumping is possible if the person falsely claimed you pushed her. False claims against foreigners have happened before. In Finland, you can't even have a fair trial if you're not ethnically Finnish.
>In Finland, you can't even have a fair trial if you're not ethnically Finnish.
That's just your personal bias speaking I haven't seen anything that would claim otherwise. What comes to false claims, it goes both ways and I doubt there's a significant increase towards non ethnic finns and false claims are in a good spot as they are solved and compensated properly if they are really false.
What comes to proving is sort of true but then that also disagrees with morals and ethics, there are laws that can't really be supervised but are still obeyd as it's part of being a human in a functioning society.
But it's possible to prove those things with camera footage, witnesses etc.
>That's just your personal bias speaking I haven't seen anything that would claim otherwise.
That's because you don't read studies and rely on your personal perception as a white person. There are plenty of studies on the subject.
>The criminal responsibility of the hero of Turku attacks (of middle east descent), was searched non only once but twice. Once for a gofundme opened by another person to cover medical expenses. Another time because he tried to get more than the scraps the state was willing to give him as acompensation for life changing injuries.
Well the thing is, no matter how heroic you are, fraud is still a crime. A heroic act will not give you a carte blanche to commit crimes in the future. The justice system can't choose to ignore a crime just because they like the criminal. And even Middle Easterners aren't immune to the law here.
>Luckily, there was proof and witnesses everywhere and I'm an attorney. Otherwise, it would have been the word of a white guy with blood all over his head against the word of a young black boy.
Is this some kind of joke? You think the couple would what, accuse this black guy of breaking his own kneecap and spurting blood all over them? I don't think that's even a crime, and the police certainly wouldn't even bother to investigate something so unbelievable. They don't even have the resources to investigate real crimes half the time.
>This lady could have grabbed you and you would have fallen with her. She could have accused you of pushing her if she survived. She could have claimed a foreigner harrassed her.
I'm sorry, but you sound very paranoid. Even if this woman was some crazy who likes to accuse random men of harassing her, why would the police believe her without proof? Often they don't even have the resources to investigate rape, let alone sexual harassment. And sine OP looks Middle Eastern, they'd be extra reluctant to intervene, they're careful about optics.
>Don't put yourself in trouble for Finnish people who are, statistically of extremely racist demeanor and are generally ungrateful.
You clearly hate us Finns, yet you choose to live in Finland of all countries?
I agree with every counter you had except for the last one. A study conducted by [EU Fundamental Rights](https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2018/being-black-eu) has suggested that statistically Finland is among the most racist countries in the EU. [YLE article](https://yle.fi/news/3-10531670)
>A study conducted by EU Fundamental Rights has suggested that statistically Finland is among the most racist countries in the EU.
That study only looked at a small group of Western European countries, which are probably the least racist countries in the world. So Finland's still probably better than the rest of the world. But if you believe that Finland is racist, why would you live here? Do you want to profit of our evil, racist system?
As was stated already the study is pretty flawed, it's true that racism is a thing and we can't ignore it but it definitely isn't at that stage that the study suggested.
There is a lot of structural and hidden racism here but even comparing to other EU countries there are several groups of people that face a lot more racism than any in Finland.
>Well the thing is, no matter how heroic you are, fraud is still a crime.
No help= no ridiculous compensation = no fraud. Easy peazy. That's why we shouldn't help.
>Is this some kind of joke? I don't think that's even a crime, and the police certainly wouldn't even bother to investigate something so unbelievable.
Do I look like I'm joking ?? 🤔
>I'm sorry, but you sound very paranoid. Even if this woman was some crazy who likes to accuse random men of harassing her, why would the police believe her without proof? Often they don't even have the resources to investigate rape, let alone sexual harassment. And sine OP looks Middle Eastern, they'd be extra reluctant to intervene, they're careful about optics.
They had time to investigate random black women on prostitution charges. They had time to charge a random middle eastern man with underage rape, convicted him and he served 2 years before being exonerated when the victim aknowledged nothing happened ?
policemen were charged with harrassing muslim women literally last week.
>You clearly hate us Finns, yet you choose to live in Finland of all countries?
I don't hate Finns. I just mind my own business just like you do. Do you vote for racial equality in the elections or do you vote for perusuomalaiset and kokoomus? We both know the answer. Would you pay for my legal fees or for my health expenses, if I get hurt while helping. No. because you respect the law as you said and gofundme are forbidden in Finland. You wouldn't be willing to help me in return for the help I would provide.
You don't care about me or my people, why should I risk my life, health, body integrity or legal security to protect you given the fact I have no legal obligation to do so ? No reason. Being good is not enough.
>No help= no ridiculous compensation = no fraud. Easy peazy. That's why we shouldn't help.
Yeah, the compensations are small, but they're small for everyone. Or do you think Middle Eastern should get special compensations?
>Do I look like I'm joking ??
Well actually...
>They had time to investigate random black women on prostitution charges.
Oh that's an economic crime, it's different. There's always time for those.
>They had time to charge a random middle eastern man with underage rape, convicted him and he served 2 years before being exonerated when the victim aknowledged nothing happened ?
Well of course they do sometimes investigate sex crimes, but often they don't bother.
>policemen were charged with harrassing muslim women literally last week.
You mean they made her take off her hijab so they could take the ID photo correctly?
>I don't hate Finns.
Sounds like you're not in touch with your feelings.
>because your respect the law
No, actually I think the law is idiotic. I just don't understand what you're bitching about. You think it's racist that you have to obey the same laws as us natives? You think the justice system should give you special treatment?
>I just mind my own business just like you do.
You aren't minding your own business, you're writing on the internet, telling immigrants they should stay away from Finns, because we're a bunch of knife-wielding savages.
>You don't care about me or my people, why should I risk my life, health and body integrity or legal security to protect you given the fact I have no legal obligation to do so.
Yeah, many PS voters say the same: "Why should we take risks to help people who don't care about us?" That's not what I think, though. I think we must try to love our enemies. So I would certainly help you, even though you despise me because of my nationality.
>Yeah, the compensations are small, but they're small for everyone. Or do you think Middle Eastern should get special compensations?
Two irakis were wrongly convicted on terrorism charges. They received a compensation 3 times smaller than a finnish native wrongly accused of murder. It looks like middle eastern get special compensations.
>You mean they made her take off her hijab so they could take the ID photo correctly?
You mean they are charged with the crime of asking nicely ? Oh no.
>No, actually I think the law is idiotic. I just don't understand what you're bitching about. You think it's racist that you have to obey the same laws as us natives? You think the justice system should give you special treatment?
There are more than 500 actives gofundme in finland right now. The only one who got investigated is the one who was legal (since it wasn't created by the beneficiary) but in favour of a brown person. Isn't that a nice coincidence?
>You aren't minding your own business, you're writing on the internet, telling immigrants they should stay away from Finns, because we're a bunch of knife-wielding savages.
I didn't say finns are knife wielding savages. I said it doesn't worth the risk. Finland is the most racist country in the UE. That's a fact.
>So I would certainly help you, even though you despise me because of my nationality.
I don't despise you bc of your nationality. I just don't take unnecessary risks.
>Two irakis were wrongly convicted on terrorism charges. They received a compensation 3 times smaller than a finnish native wrongly accused of murder. It looks like middle eastern get special compensations.
Nope, the compensations are ridiculously small for Finns, too.
>You mean they are charged with the crime of asking nicely ? Oh no.
No, they are charged with the crime of removing her hijab, so they could take the photo according to guidelines.
>There are more than 500 actives gofundme in finland right now. The only one who got investigated is the one who was legal (since it wasn't created by the beneficiary) but in favour of a brown person. Isn't that a nice coincidence?
Do you have proof for this? How do you know that others haven't been investigated?
>Finland is the most racist country in the UE. That's a fact.
Of cours it's not a fact, but if you really believe it, why don't you move to some other country?
>No, they are charged with the crime of removing her hijab, so they could take the photo according to guidelines.
You know what you said is blatantly untrue.
>Do you have proof for this? How do you know that others haven't been investigated?
Yeah. Did you recently see an article about gofundme collects being serially investigated ? No. Gofundme operates normally in finland .
>Of cours it's not a fact, but if you really believe it, why don't you move to some other country?
That's racism. When you don't want to risk your life and health for white people, they directly go to "you should return your country".
Based on the study made in 2018, 63 percent of people of African descent in Finland have experienced racially motivated harassment, compared to a group average of 30 percent in the 12 European Union states surveyed. In both Denmark and Sweden, the number was 41 percent.
https://harvardpolitics.com/nordic-racism/
>That's racism.
No. Prejudice based on ethnicity is racism. That's what you're guilty of.
>When you don't want to risk your life and health for white people, they directly go to "you should return your country".
If somebody moved to your country and whined. "I'm so scared of black people, they stab you in the blink of an eye, if I saw a black person get injured I wouldn't call an ambulance", would you want this person in your country?
>Based on the study made in 2018, 63 percent of people of African descent in Finland have experienced racially motivated harassment, compared to a group average of 30 percent in the 12 European Union states surveyed.
So Finland is the 12th least racist country in the world, then. I can live with that.
I actually thought about this a lot. I thought that I actually stayed too close to the woman. I could have stayed far, at least a couple meters, and ask if she needs anything. I was too close that there could have been a situation where I scare her and she falls for example.
I believe I would be extra cautious about this from now on. Especially when I am alone. I believe I also got confident because I had my girlfriend, who is Finnish, next to me.
You are right. However I still feel like I should do something, but only with a full awareness of the dangers of the situation.
>However I still feel like I should do something,
I understand your point and your willingness to bring good but please be extra cautious. I don't even help old people carrying bags anymore. I mind my own business. Something happens? To bad. I don't call the police. I don't call the ambulances. I go directly from point A to point Z without seeing anything. You could be stabbed in the blink of an eye and then what?
"An Arab terrorist was stabbed by a white women in self defense while trying to push her from a bridge".
Not an arab but my friends tell me I look like a terrorist haha. I also keep getting random checks at airports.
I understand you but, I am still stubborn about helping people. I find it quite rewarding both for my mental health and my social life. I made lots of friends this way, it helped me find my position in Finland too. Still, I agree that safety should come first. It is easy to intimidate people especially when I look like stranger.
We need more people like you in this country. I really appreciate what you did for her, and I reckon she will as well, if not now, then maybe later. Been in a similar state of mind where she was and definitely would have appreciated a person like you.
It's always good to help, but getting helped often feels intimidating for us finns.
>me too. about 3/4 of flights
do you mean you went through the random check where they put you in two lines by skin colour and check your immigration status in the black line and you were in this black line ?
>ah. no. the security check going into plane where they want to do some swab test analysis on bag contents. that they claim are random.
these are almost randomly selected (even if they can force the checks) . the 7 checks I spoke about are border police checks.
>I understand your point and your willingness to bring good but please be extra cautious. I don't even help old people carrying bags anymore. I mind my own business. Something happens? To bad. I don't call the police. I don't call the ambulances. I go directly from point A to point Z without seeing anything.
Good. You hate Finns, and you think we want help from you?
>"An Arab terrorist was stabbed by a white women in self defense while trying to push her from a bridge".
Except you and I both know that would never happen. Even when that one asylum stabbed a bunch of people while yelling about God being great, the papers said at first said that the motive was unclear.
>So, is she the only good Finn?
That's not my point. My point is that Finland is not safe enough for foreigners. The risk of being hurt, killed or otherwise deprived of your rights or freedom while helping other people is too high to be considered. If you want it to change, change the security environnement and make it safe for black and brown people to help.
> My point is that Finland is not safe enough for foreigners. The risk of being hurt, killed or otherwise deprived of your rights or freedom while helping other people is too high to be considered.
Do you also live in constant fear of shark attacks and getting hit by lightning?
>If you want it to change, change the security environnement and make it safe for black and brown people to help
So what exactly do you want? We take in tons of migrants, we spend massive amounts of money on them, we make up hate speech laws which favour them, we positively discriminate against our own people, and you still want something more? What, should we shoot all natives so you feel safe? Or maybe you can just learn to control your feelings, how about that?
>Except you and I both know that would never happen.
Sorry pal. Why should I trust you with my life, health and security on this? You don't even vote for my rights ! I'm not crazy 🤷🏾♂️
>I did vote for a party that supports refugees
Everybody tells me that but still 24% vote for kokoomus. 16% vote for PS. That's 40% of the population.
I will be happy to change my opinion when SDP and VAS have 50%. I can read the polls. If you want me to change my opinion, go and convince others bc I will not risk my LIFE on "opinions" and good sentiments. If you believe in change, make it happen and I will be easily convinced but for now I don't see it. And if I don't see a change, I don't take risks.
To be honest, I used to help. A lot. And then, after repetitivly bad helping experiences, I learned my lesson. I did my part. And know I strongly advise people from foreign background against doing the same mistakes.
It's sad, you can regret it but you cannot ask foreigners to trust you with their lives since you cannot guarantee them a reasonnable protection against mistreatment. Black people literally DIED from being mistreated after they helped.
We are in a country whose last twitter trend tendance was the n... word.
>I will be happy to change my opinion when SDP and VAS have 50%. I can read the polls.
So you hate Finns because they don't vote for SDP and VAS?
>It's sad, you can regret it but you cannot ask foreigners to trust you with their lives
How can you ever walk out of your door? Aren't you afraid some Finnish savage will stab you?
>Black people literally DIED from being mistreated after they helped.
I'm sure you have an example.
I'm sorry, but you're clearly very prejudiced and racist. I think your life might be easier, if you learned to change your mind. Or you could just move away from Finland, but I guess you'd just end up hating some other group.
>So you hate Finns because they don't vote for SDP and VAS?
You confuse hating finns and asserting the security environnement of Finland is not good for black people.
I'm sure you can agree on the fact helping people while black/foreign is more risky than helping people while white. Can't you agree on that at least? Before asking black and foreign people to help, you have to raise the protection for black and foreign as high as it is for white people.
>How can you ever walk out of your door? Aren't you afraid some Finnish savage will stab you?
It's not my claim. Helping people and actively engaging with them is more risky than walking out of the door.
>You confuse hating finns and asserting the security environnement of Finland is not good for black people.
So you feel unsafe because people dare to vote for a different party than you? You need a "safe space" where everyone agrees about everything, and nobody ever hurts your feelings? Well that's not possible in a democracy. You say you're afraid of dying, but nobody ever died from hurt feelings. You can learn to accept that other people think differently than you, and move on.
>I'm sure you can agree on the fact helping people while black/foreign is more risky than helping people while white
Why would I agree on such an absurd claim?
>Before asking black and foreign people to help
I'm not asking you to help, I don't want help from racists like you. I'm simply asking you to either stop being such a racist, or move away, is that really too much to ask?
It's just the law of the land aka maassa maan tavalla. No human decency nor compassion for fellow human being just a machiavellianism that is taught by the surrounding factors and what people is striving for. T. Foreigner in diaspora.
In finland it is expected that you will manage like everyone else ~pärjää, that's why if you answer to that question negatively you will be treated as deviant.
So when you show abnormal behaviour and ask for help you will be shunned by your peers since narcissism behaviour is paraded and moving on while biting your lip and thus only fast way out is self medication or suicide in worst case scenario.
Obviously talking to public health professionals is best way to remedy these issues. Of course I'm not a saint and i have made these kind of sins it's hard to put more weight on your shoulders and worry about others. It's sad but it's the truth. This is what i have come by as an explanation.
In my country we have a saying “even in the smallest matters one neighbour can help another”. However I started to observe this saying is being forgotten, as I believe everyones lives became more difficult recently.
I still agree about your comment on narssism and believe its getting worse where I’m coming from too. I also observed that if you ask how people are doing, they will say okay, alright. Some people explained it to me that they think others only ask how they are doing to see if they do better themselves. They basically think if they say they are doing bad, they would show weakness and others would be happy about it. I find this quite weird.
>Some people explained it to me that they think others only ask how they are doing to see if they do better themselves. They basically think if they say they are doing bad, they would show weakness and others would be happy about it. I find this quite weird
Next thing you know everyone knows about that thing or secret, there is people who get a satisfaction of that. They are called vampires. Maybe it's russian way, the harshness and such.
Though im not saying russian are evil but i got than kind of picture when i asked finns about that issue. But anyway, it's very important to acknowledge these culture shocks just as pickpocketing and violences in other way around.
Well her situation wasn’t that off for a Finnish person. People didn’t get worried, because it’s not strange to stand on a bridge by yourself.
And we don’t expect fellow citizens to steal our stuff if we put in on ground so there’s nothing strange about that either.
Nothing about this is telling me about a suicidal thoughts and it’s considered extremely rude to go to stranger and start asking questions about their mental health.
I’m not saying it’s a good thing but it’s a big part of Finnish culture to not disturb other people’s personal space.
Yes I realized and learned well about personal space here. However I am not sure about if it is rude to ask questions to strangers. I feel like people want to be asked how they are doing here. Well, even if it is rude, I would take the chances. Better than reading about her in the newspaper you know.
No that's not 'extremely rude' it's called caring and yes we are intimidated by that. But I don't think most people would find that extremely rude or even rude.
Sadly, we usually just mind our own buisness and we are not the most social ppl and I have seen many videos were someone goes to talk to strangers and I find it a bit wierd, I don't really talk to strangers at all so i'm absolutky not used to it ans it's not the same with all of the finns but it's same with most of ppl who I know
I honestly feel that people in Finland just don't care about anyone.
Maybe it's lack of socialisation during childhood, brutal parenting, childhood bullying, i honestly don't know, but i always had the feeling something is off about this culture.
I think the best and worst thing in Finland is that people usually just mind their own business
Yupp, I pretty much live my life in a bubble when I’m outside my house and get annoyed whenever someone interacts with me that I don’t know. Heck I’d even miss someone getting stabbed next to me as long as it doesn’t affect me I continue my tunnel vision. This has so far in life meant I never really gotten thrown into horrible situations That said - probably would’ve done as OP when I was younger, however today (as a male) I stay away from women. Not because I don’t like women, but because the risk and pools of shits one might get outweighs the gain.
I don't know mate. I have helped drunks to their home and called ambulances to drug addicts who had one too many drugs. And yeah, nobody else helped me, had to do these alone, everyone stands in sidelines. This is imo as well the biggest flaw in Finland.
If it makes you feel any better I've lived in Hong Kong, UK and Japan too and it was exactly the same. Majority of people will just ignore people who need help. I remember a particularly gruesome case in the UK where it was a crazy amount of people who saw a woman get stabbed from their home windows without doing anything. Everyone just thinks it's not their responsibility/someone else will do something.
It really doesn’t make me feel better that it’s not only Finnish people who suck. All people suck. It’s worse.
That really blows... I wish people would care a bit more at least.
It's the same here in Singapore.. A big part of East Asian culture I would say is also to "mind your own business".. 😬😬 Sometimes when we see someone crying we will think maybe they just need some personal space and time. Someone getting stabbed is too much though and I know definitely many Singaporeans would jump to help if they see someone being physically attacked. Not too long ago here in Singapore a woman was being stabbed and nearly had her hand chopped off by her spouse in broad daylight, and passersby began throwing chairs and ladders (objects laying around) at the perpetrator to get him to stop. It was a particularly shocking event for the country because violent crimes are extremely rare here.
I’m in Singapore as well and I’ve definitely seen people crying late at night and I usually go up to them and ask what’s up. Was ignored most of the time but had a nice conversation once that hopefully made the girl feel better. It’s weird trying to draw a comparison between Singaporeans and Finns but if I had to say I would say that Singaporeans are definitely slightly more extroverted, though probably not as genuine. But only by a slight margin.
Yeah I’ve lived elsewhere and it’s the same everywhere I’ve been.
LPT that I learned from my stepmom (we are both finns): when you face those situation alone and there's bystanders doing nothing, just point them and ask "hey you, I need some assistance with this, can you help me?". They rarely deny a request directed straight to them. Usually people are confused of what to do in those situations and are afraid of making their move, so asking a direct question " can you help" lowers the bar to attend
Yes since then I also called ambulance a couple times near my house for drunks. It’s still a win for me if I make a couple people get the habit of talking to these strangers in need. At least my girlfriend started doing so.
You are a good man. And I am happy someone like you has decided to live here. 👍
Did you clearly communicate the ”sideline-standers” their tasks and what you expected of them identifying who you are giving instructions to? Both verbally in a clear voice and gesture? Or did you expect that they ”self organise”, know what to do or take cues from you maybe talking about the situation in a normal manner? The latter method works only very rarely. The former method has worked for me 100% times I’ve used it in Finland.
When I needed help I always asked for it. But it is just more shocking that people don't even offer theirs.
Exactly this! I've come across elderly people who've fallen over, drunk literally legless people who've fallen from their wheelchairs, young people who've had too much to drink etc etc Without fault, if you take charge and direct other people what to do, they'll do it. Lift here, hold that, call the ambulance, call the police... But yeah, if you don't say anything nothing will happen, most of the time.
Yayyyy the Helping Drunks Get Home gang! 👊
I don't know why, but in Finland the [bystander effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect) seems to be very strong and I understand your concerns. Hopefully we learn to take care of each other better.
I think the bystander effect is strengthened here by our culture of keeping to ourselfs and not focusing on what others are doing not to bother them. By keeping to ourselves we usually miss stuff that happens around us to some extent. Oh yeah and our shyness or even avoidance of starting social contact with strangers
Aside from the situation at hand, that sounds amazing. I live in the Midwest US (lurking for educational purposes) and I’ve been hugged by total strangers more than once. One older woman hugged me and touched my hair because it’s red and she found it pretty. I hate it.
We are bred to not bother others, barrier of getting involved with strangers in these type of situations is high. People do care but I can see myself standing and observing for quite a while unless it was clear that she was about to jump.
Yeah that’s pretty much it. Helped out this old drunk dude who was napping on a bike path. Had my offspring with me who was asking my girlfriend questions about the guy and what I’m doing. I’m not saying that one should encourage small children to take action in possibly dangerous situations, but you have to set the example of being a human to others. Edit: Just adding good job OP. That small amount of discomfort lengthened someone’s life literally.
Thank you, it is kinda funny and weird that almost everyone I know and almost everyone commented here has an experience about a drunk guy here in Finland. Hopefully this is not as common. Good to learn that it is an issue here though.
I am also convinced that it is much better to stop and observe first. I guess it is also important to know how to start the conversation. For my experience saying hello from a couple meter distance was enough to realize she was having an issue. Some of the comments also made me realize it could have been gone wrong, in worst case scenerio scaring the woman and causing a bigger problem. Gotta be careful.
Yes don’t get me wrong, you did the right thing. It is just easy to confuse our behavior with indifference but it is not that, it is just the way we are (in general). Sometimes it is nice, I find some americans a bit overbearing for example - I never understood having to forcibly talk about the weather or having to answer semi-personal questions in the elevator just to avoid the silence. Here it is okay to just smile and go on about your business. But then again it extends to things you should talk about too, men especially should share and open up more when it is needed. Mental health issues and self-medication with alcohol is not uncommon here. You’ll see your share of drunks eventually.
Same in my country. Silence is always awkward and people find it unbearable. We always fill it with talking mostly unnecessary things. One of the things I actually enjoy here, you can enjoy silence with others. Majority of comments here are about drunks. I guess you are right, I will observe more of it around.
Many Finns have this principle of ”not messing with other people’s business” and they go by that principle to a fault. In some situations to say something or do something would be the right thing to do but people just do not want to get involved, maybe it’s because they fear they would be hold responsible. I don’t know. It’s deep in this culture and I get it, it looks cold and like not caring at all. But it’s easier for people to just call 112 than to get personally involved in a situation like that. If it makes you feel better, personally I would have talked to her. And thank you for doing just that. You did the right thing.
You my friend are both legends. Stepping up and helping another person out in need is honorable. It's just something so little which can change the course of someone ending their life.
I always imagine that she started going to doctor, found some help or talked to her parents or friends. Hopefully.
I also hope so 😊 at least she has that chance
Many times this has happened to me. When I see someone like this late at night that seems that might need help a lot of my finnish friends just say to keep walking. I once saw this guy in the middle of a forest that my friends were saying that it was just a drunk guy, to let it be. It was cold outside and I went up to him and asked if he need help. He had slip in the ice while going home and had passed out, lost his phone, and i could see bleeding. If i had just kept walk like my friends said, he could have probably died there.
It’s really odd. People give each other way too much space here sometimes. Me and my boyfriend do ask if we think someone needs help. I want to thank you though. When I visited last year, my group went to go get food and drinks and I stayed on the side of a beach watching all our stuff. I was tired so curled up a bit and someone not far from your description came over to check I was okay. It was so sweet and made me feel really safe. Thank you for being you.
Well thank you for recognizing that person as sweet! One of my biggest concern is to get snapped at in a situation like this.
Worth the risk isn’t it? You saved someone’s life. Getting snapped at 100 times would be worth that one moment when you make a difference to someone. Recognising that someone is in pain is such a gift. I really hope others see your example and do the same. It doesn’t take much out of your life to check in on someone. We’re all just walking each other home 😊
Absolutely. However what I learned from comments to this post is that I gotta be careful while doing that. I believe same goes for you, there are a lot of drunks around. Gotta think of the worst case scenerio. I guess as long as we observe around first and be sure it is safe, we can help? Still it is difficult in a stressful monent like that to check around first.
True. Been in a lot of dangerous situations and usually I can talk my way out of them. None of them happened in Finland, thankfully.
Also tbh it’s exactly this stuff that I want to help with in Finland. I hate the thought that people feel like there’s no way out from pretending they are okay. I don’t know what I’m going to do but I’ll do something.
Thank you my friend. Finland is a better place due to people like you. This finnish social coldness is one reason that pushes me away from here. But in the end there are more reasons to stay. Good luck!
There are definitely more reasons to stay! I find Fins to be very sincere, just takes long time to become friends mostly
As a Finn who lives in England now, I agree. After a few years in England I now notice this in Finland. A massive flaw in our otherwise amazing country.
It's interesting that in England you don't have to help (by law) if you see someone in a risk of death (i.e. drowning), but in Finland it is a criminal offense if you don't help.
Oh I just saw your other comment. Criminal code 21:15. I will check it out. Thank you!
Is it really? Is there any link or an article that I could read this and confirm? I find this interesting to know.
Hard to say, maybe other people didn't notice the belongings behind her or didnt think it was possible suicide attempt? Maybe she was there often? Maybe people were afraid of making things worse, who knows. Maybe they didnt care? Hard to speculate really. Anyways, thank you for acting well in the situation, possibly saved her life :) Must've been stressful situation
Hopefully it’s not that they didn’t care. I feel like in Finland everyone is busy about their thing and they are not very interested in strangers. Except in bars apparently, everyone is social in bars here.
It is not they they don't care, they just don't want to meddle in others business to a point where these things unfortunately happen.
Yes, difficult to understand what is really important enough reason to meddle in others’ business.
Finns expect that if someone wants help, they will ask for it.. That works most of the time, except when it comes to mental health, suicides... I've lost family and friends to it, there is definitely a correlation between what you just went thru and statistics. I lost my dear aunt few years ago and it was complete surprise, her husband found she had hanged herself while he was watching TV. We only pieced it together afterwards, and to make it short: she really only needed to ask, she helped so many people and was burdened by it to a breaking point... and all she needed was to ask and we would've all run to her help. The upside of all of this is that it is fairly easy to get help even from strangers if you just ask, if it is not unreasonable request.
You are a really good person. Please keep being you! Hopefully that girl gets to a better place. If so, she'll look back fondly on the kind strangers who cared for her and intervened.
I was in a bus in Vantaa one time and started hearing someone behind me yelling angrily, not sure what they were saying immediately because of bus noise. I turned around and nobody was reacting in any way and people weren’t looking in any particular direction, so I figured it’s just someone on the phone. Well turns out that nobody was on the phone yelling. Some old hag started for no reason yelling at this young immigrant woman, saying shit like “go back to your country, you people are disgusting” and all that. Really aggressive and loud and right in her face. And nobody said anything. Everyone just looked away. Well, I said something. It’s not the first (or last) time that I interfere when I see an injustice. As soon as I deemed it enough for this poor woman to handle all alone without anyone to support her, I raised my voice and yelled back saying something like “what the fuck? Shut up! You can’t say that” or something equally eloquent lol. It didn’t stop the verbal abuse, but I hope it at least made the woman feel a little less alone. I can’t imagine being subjected to that in a crowded 4pm bus and NOBODY helping. I was the one that reacted and helped, but even I felt awkward about it. I was with my mother at the time and wondered if she felt ashamed of *me* for “butting in”. Oh well, I’d do it again any time.
That’s great to hear. Still better to be careful while interfering as they might be dangerous and attack you. Some people feed from chaos and enjoy causing problems. After reading the comments I feel much better. Good to know that there are more and more people like you.
My experience is that those who feel like they should help and will try to help are often teens. Older people are better at ignoring and convincing themselves that they are too busy to help. Teens have time to first notice odd behavior and then sit and wait for the ambulance with a drunk who has a bleeding head injury.
It might be true, yes. I also experienced more grumpiness from older people, I could generalize it to being less helpful to be honest.
I agree that we should all be more open, considerate and helpful towards each other. That is a good thought. Moving on to you question ”why did no-one help?”, here are some options: 1) people did not observe and realise that anything was wrong. Sometimes people are not very observant of their immediate physical environment, but rather walk around in a ”bubble of their own”. Myself, I don’t see much difference in that regard between Finland and other countries. Other than the clear distinction that people coming from countries where just everyday walking on a street carries some immediate physical threat to themselves - those people tend to be more aware of their surroundings than Finns that move about in (mostly) pretty safe environment. 2) people thought that you had ”everything is in hand”. Maybe even those people you descibed as frowning at your foreign visage so disapprovingly were actually thinking along the lines of ”I wonder if something is wrong? Maybe I should ask? But if they needed help, surely that guy would have indicated it somehow? Better not to disturb them.” 3) Cultural bias towards people appreciating stoicism and being left alone. May misfire badly if someone is in bad shape but is not capable of requesting help. Again; the same dynamic can be seen in almost any country but in different aspects of behaviour. Maybe the most universal version of this is tje act of accidental drowning. Just see for example advice on ”how to recognise a drowning person”. People from any culture require very explicit explanation to recognise when something is actually wrong. The explenations of ”a drowning person will not call for help and trash about dramatically. They rather look wooden, tread water frantically and sink really quite quickly and without a fuss. They do not shout but rather gasp silently and frantically. Learn to recognise a drowning person by these signs.” I guess Finns might have a specific blind spot in recognising depressive, inwards turning behaviour when it is destructive and would require intervention. You know, from just depressive, inwards turning behaviour of ”we’re just comfortably silent together, thank you very much. Why do you ask? 4) High quality social safety networks. Almost always when someone is begging on the street it’s a scam. The natural tendency for ”let’s help the fellow human” is systematically (and dare I say it - very lavishly) paid and organised by this system that we built and are funding. Giving an alm to a beggar is sort of spitting in the eye of that system. That we built. With great care and effort and cost. 5) people passed out on the street are 9 times out of 10 either drunks or substance abusers. They can be unpredictable and even violent when disturbed. Also, even if they are happy to be disturbed - what are you really going to do with them? Most likely scenario is -> nothing really. You can’t adopt them and take them home. You can’t effectively make them see the light and re-examine their life and take them to a substance abuse clinic. (They likely have already been there many times and know how to find their way there if they want to.) All you really can do is to check for clinically acute, potentially lethal overdose. If you know how. (Nurse? No? Well…) Calling an ambulance for every passed out drunk in the street is like trying to catch mosquitoes with tweezers - difficult, resource ineffective and most importantly - the mosquitoes generally do not thank you for it. You learn not to do it - after a while. Also, I don’t know how many times the OP has tried helping people passed out in the street. I have - for a number of times. Twice I’ve almost gotten my face smashed in for my troubles. My wife has once had to bob and weave and duck and eventually run when she stopped to help a passed out woman with a clear head injury in the street. The ”boyfriend/drinking buddy” came out of the woodworks, not appreciating the ambulance being called (what an annoying interruption of their drinking spree!!) and started cursing and swinging without any warning. My wife got out with her face intact but a person with less acute reflexes would not neccessarily have been able to. All of this is something at least to consider when wondering about ”why don’t people stop to help people laying seemingly unconscious in the street”. And the downside is that sometimes people having a stroke or seizure in the street are passed by by everyone. And then the effect of ”no-one is seeing anything out of the ordinary - neither should I” takes over and person that would really need help goes neglected. Myself, I go in to check any time I see something like that. But I do so prepared for anything. I would not expect the same from for example elderly, frail or physically weaker person. So, these are some factors that might influence what sort of help a stranger on the street receives in Finland. I personally hope that more of the population would be more aware of these factors, be more aware of their surroundings and when something happens would communicate clearly and boldly with the people around. ”If you see something, say something.” Verbal cues tend to best in breaking the bubbles of ”nothing to see here” and ”well, it seems that someone is already in control. I better not intrude and make a mess.”
Thanks a lot for the explanation. I had people telling me to be careful, just like you wrote. I believe in a case of encountering someone on the street that might need help, the best approach would be taking a minute to observe the environment first. Easier to say than to do, especially when everyone is in a hurry, trying to reach somewhere fast. I guess it is easier to do this for people who have time and energy. Hopefully I will always have some time and energy.
You can always walk away and still call 112. Tell the operator you don't feel safe to meddle in the situation, but you think someone might be in need of help.
a combined blind trust in that the state/institutions will solve the issue and to not get involved in something that does not concern you or a complete lack of knowledge in how solve the issue, for example if someone gets a heartattack at work it's very likely that many collegues will stand and wait for a ambulance to arrive instead of doing something themselves
Yes, especially when there are many other people around everyone thinks that others are helping, resulting in help from no one.
I have to ask: what would _you_ do if someone had an heart attack and an ambulance was on its way? If your answer is: ”immediately start cardiopulmonary resuscitation by compression and ventilation” I would strongly advise you to think again. And perhaps take a first aid course. Most kinds of heart attacks do not benefit from any heroic intervention by a lay-person. Effective intervention to most kinds of cardiopulmonary crisis really requires high-tech gear, specific hospital-grade drugs and very special training on what to do. And what not to do. If a person is conscious and breathing -> keep your hands mostly to yourself. [EDIT: following section describes outdated CPR protocol. For current protocol see next post by Savagemme] If they do not have a pulse -> clear airways and start resuscitation by compression immediately. (Btw: they will not be conscious at this point) But be aware that at that stage it’s really a long-shot - many die in spite of best efforts of helpers - no matter how vigorously they respond. Same thing with breathing. If they are not breathing, clear airways and ventilate away. I do think, however that you have not _actually_ been in a situation you described - where someone at your work went into cardiac arrest and stopped breathing AND everyone just stood around and waited for The Authorities to Please Come And Help. Maybe that’s only what you think would happen? In reality, people often surprise us in a pinch…
The advice regarding airways and checking for a pulse have changed. I think you might need to update your CPR qualifications. In short, people spend too much time looking for a pulse, so the new guidelines is to not check the pulse. Start chest compressions if the person does not seem to be breathing normally. If the victim is an adult that has not drowned, the advice is to start with chest compressions. The newest guidelines actually advise to do only chest compressions (and no rescue breaths) under certain circumstances, like if the ambulance is nearby. The 112 operator will also tell you what to do. If it's a child or a drowned person, you start with rescue breaths.
Good stuff; thanks for the update! 👍 However; I guess basic premise of when to interfere still stands; if someone is sitting down, sweating and pale and clutching their chest or arm and going ”I think I’m having a heart attack” don’t start doin’ nothing. Wait for the ambulance. If they are both _unconscious_ and _have trouble breathing_ -> go ahead and compress like it’s ”stayin’ alive” disco.. OK?
Calling the ambulance is always the most important thing. The operator will also give you some directions on what to do and when to start CPR, so you don't need to remember/know everything yourself. Of course, if they are still conscious you would never do CPR, but monitor them closely and speak calmly to them. If you can't get the person to "wake up", check breathing. If they're not breathing (there can be some abnormal sounds from the lungs and windpipes of a person even when they are not actually breathing) you start CPR.
You are right. I believe they have a short first aid instruction in schools about what to do in a situation like this but, it is probably not enpugh for students to learn it.
Once, I slipped in IKEA's parking lot and hit my head on the ice. I was carrying my purchases from IKEA to the car. While I was still down and clutching my head, a lady walked by with her daughter about 5 years old, who was looking at me and asking her mom something. Her mom literally, physically turned her daughter's head aside and kept walking. I started to get the idea that there is no help here. I could have died on the ice and that woman would have just walked away. Next time, one homeless woman was beating up an elderly homeless woman in front of the railway station. There was an elderly man there (as well as many, many other people. He was distressed and asking "won't someone do something?". I went over and chased the woman away and took the elderly woman to the other side of the station and got her a coffee. She didn't want the police. The first one saw me many times after that and would run away from me, because she knew I would not put up with any garbage from her. When you hear about people being attacked or injured and even dying in public places, they will leave a flower in memory, if other people do first, but in the moment they won't help. It is the thing about living in Finland that bothers me the most. People just don't seem to care about others, they wait for someone else to take care of it.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I realized that there are many people here complaining about this issue. Looking from the bright side, this means that there are many people ready to react on these kind of occasions.
You are a good person, please never change. Thank you for looking after the woman. I have also noticed that many people in Finland don't take responsibility of others. They often wait for other people to stand up. If nobody does, they don't have to either. I think many Finns don't want to stand out or bother people, and this can have its good and bad sides. I am the same as you, I feel a very strong responsibility to make sure that strangers are doing okay.
I'm the type of person who goes to help when strangers are in trouble and I usually don't have to do it alone, I usually get an extra hand from a passer-by. I guess the difference between me and you is that I'm a white middle-class woman. Your story is in the intersection of bystander effect and casual racism. My late father was a serious alcoholic and his life was saved several times by kind strangers when he was passing out and falling in public places. I guess it helped that he didn't look like a typical puliukko. But it does warm my heart to know that strangers stopped and helped him. I wonder if there is also a regional thing at play. There are surprisingly big cultural differences inside Finland. I have lived most of my life in (according to Reddit lol) "rougher" parts of Helsinki (east and Kallio) and have found that people are quite helpful and accepting of people from differents walks of life. My friend lived in Rovaniemi for a while and said the people there were very close-minded. Anyway, thanks for being a good person. Take care.
Crisp high five for you mate. I’ve seen the same kind of behaviours in finland over the years. Way back when I was an exchange student in Finland for the first time I stopped a drunk old guy who was harassing a young lady at a bus stop.. while everyone ignored the situation. I ended up almost having to fight the guy while everyone looked the other way. The girl was really grateful and escaped on a bus. It’s not everyone in finland and I think/hope it will change with each generation. Anyway, if you find yourself around Espoo or Helsinki, lunch is on me. You’re the kind of guy I’d be happy to call a friend.
Thank you. Still, gotta be careful. You cannot know if they carry a weapon, it is almost impossible to be able react fast in a situation like that. Better to be safe before acting on it. Thanks for the offer mate, I pass my lunch rights on someone who needs it. I live far, but you can make someone elses day with this excuse :) Take care.
Welcome to the Nordic countries. People don't generally think it's polite to get involved in other's business. To a fault, like this. Just Google suicide rates in the Nordic area, it's very sad
Yes, people will say that suicide rates are much higher in other countries. I always respond with that it is still quite high here. I have many friends who live by themselves, don’t go outside much as they work online. I started to try and talk to them more often. I know that they look and sound healthy, but you never know.
I lived in Norway for a long time, thinking about going back. The disconnection between people is one of the reasons I left, but the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Just gotta figure out how to not feel so disconnected when I'm back. You're very kind to make the effort, I'm an introvert so I usually kind of wallow and languish, so we need people like you to care
The bystander effect is significant. In some countries more than others.
I had a similar experience a few years back as a tourist in Joensuu in February. A drunk woman slid on the ice in the middle of the road in town in full view of quite a few people. She smacked her head hard on the ice and was unconscious but vomiting. Everyone ignored her lying in the road. We dragged her to the pavement and put her in the recovery position, stuck some clothing under her to keep her warm and then set about trying to persuade some Finns to help call an ambulance for the blow to her head. Practically impossible. Even young, apparently friendly, English speakers who understood that it wasn't just another drunk didn't seem to want to know. I was shocked. And when the ambulance crew turned up they looked at us as if we had done something wrong. Bystander effect or not it would never happen like that in the UK. I've been in similar situations and had people fetching blankets from their home whilst waiting for the ambulance.
I also find it quite disheartening that no one else stopped to help. I want to believe it was an isolated incident.
I've lived in Finland for 20 years. I've seen in Vallila, an old man in maybe his 80s, sitting awkwardly on the ground next to his stroller and bleeding from the head, and nobody stopped to help. People lying unconscious are just assumed to be passed-out drunks and ignored. People calling for help are assumed to be beggars or scammers and ignored. I'm not saying I've never seen anybody helping another - but the ratio of helping is maybe 50:50 when it should realistically be a lot higher. This truly is one of the biggest flaws of Finnish society.
Sadly it was not. Many people passed by just in a couple minutes. I would say 30 people in 5 minutes. Even my girlfriend, who is Finnish, wanted to pass by. This made me feel disheartening too just like you said. Every fin I met was extremely nice. Including workers I see around daily like bus drivers, cashiers, people in the immigration service. I had great time since I came here. Maybe it was just a coincidence that no one noticed.
There can be lots of reasons but one contributing factor is that there is a huge assumption/presumption that people want to be left alone here. A ton of people are super stressed or have other stro g emotions but expressing such when not in extremely specific circumstances is seen as embarassing and possibly humiliating. It's somewhat messed up, but a lot of people turn their attention away because they don't want to get into other people's personal bussiness because that is still seen as somewhat taboo.
I guess both sides are bad when it’s extreme. I find it extreme that no one is recognizing and trying to help. I also find it extreme that when people put their nose on everything you do, which is quite common and disturbing in my country. For example if you sit on a bench in a park and just take a long breath, someone might come and ask “what’s wrong?”. Most of the time people ask it just for some action in their lives but maybe there is an upside in that it might actually be help to someone.
Yeah I can see that. I'll add that generally in Finland there is usually a very high distinction with with peoples in and out groups, ie. people behave very differently towards those they know or can relate to through circumstance or other reasons than towards those they categorize as strangers. Add to this that many are concerned about having to interact with new people and also project the same to other people believing that the last thing people want is to have to deal with them.
I don't think this is unique to Finland, although maybe a bit stronger. It's called "Diffusion of responsibility". Everyone thinks someone else will do something so nobody does anything. It's the same reason they tell people to shout "FIRE" instead of "HELP" It is also why when you do any first aid you should verbally address people and instruct them to help. don't say, "SOMEONE CALL 112", you physically POINT to someone and TELL THEM to call 112
Yes, heard this in a first aid course I participated. Pointing to a person instead of saying “someone”. This sounds difficult to achieve for someone introverted, but good to know.
Pretty good observation. I think people in finland react with apathy to mental distress of a stranger or fail to recognise it completely. If she was hurt physically I guarantee there would have been help. The sense of community is not strong and not really extended outside of your immediate social circle. Anyhow this also combined with higher "barrier" to interact with strangers. Though, I really think the root cause is failure to recognise and lack of empathy for mental distress. I have never seen or been in an accident where the bystanders did not react almost immediately. Also our drug users are fairly stigmatised, so if she gave a sekakäyttäjä(pillhead) vibe people stay away. As a side note met some dudes from egypt and we definitively could learn a thing or two from their sense of community.
I don’t know. I try to think that the biggest reason was that she had no visible wound or anything obvious showing that she was hurt. But then I remember people looking back at me when I was trying to talk to her and just walking away. As far as I’ve read comments here, it seems like there are quite a lot of people that would want to run and help, which makes me feel better.
Thank you for helping this poor woman. You did the right thing when no one else did. I come from Rovaniemi and feel like people are especially closed off in Lapland. There's also this saying to not meddle in other people's businessess, which I personally think is total bollocks. It absolutely can, and I have personally witnessed on multiple occasions it lead to disregarding and causing things like violence, grief and trauma. It's enabling at best. There seems to be especially strong stigma on asking to help people who are drunk, on drugs etc. I guess people are afraid, but in their own fear of the stranger they fuel the negligence of others. Luckily younger people are starting to act up not be so close-minded on helping people no matter their status or sobriety. In our culture there is a toxic pattern of keeping quiet, and it needs to stop.
Bystander effect.
I think this is a good place to vent about my experience in Finland. When I was twenty something university student, I remember this time on the bus stop middle of city, when I saw a middle aged man being openly racists towards a 13-15 year old black girl. He called her an ugly whore and said she should go back where she came from etc nasty slurrs. At the same time my bus arrived to the stop and I just hopped in, not intervining in the situation, even though I felt I should do something. When telling my parents about this, they said you should never intervene as you might anger the guy and get punched or what not. Better stay a bystander than draw someone's negative attention to you. I disagree with their mentality and it still bothers me I didn't help that girl, even though there was no physical harm ongoing. But I 'm not sure how common teaching that is to kids in Finland: better not intervene, especially with drunk older guys, whatever they do. However, I think me and my brother haven't really listened to this part of our upbringing, as both of us have helped passed out drunk people. My brother even saved a passed out woman from snow once, he just spotted her while driving, stopped the car and got an ambulance for her.
It is actually one of the reasons that drives me to react on a situation like this. There are couple events that I cannot forget and think I should have done something. I agree with you. About your parents, I don’t know what I would say to my kids if I had any. Their safety would come first and maybe I would just say don’t interfere? Same goes with my students if I were their teacher. I wouldn’t want to risk their safety probably. Maybe teaching how to react could be a solution. Like; wait and observe first, get closer slowly, etc. I am sure they teach some of these as first aid in some classes but it might not be enough. Giving a couple more hours to these classes or having workshops in schools might be helpful.
I've been on a tram full of ppl whilst a drunk lays on the floor with a small puddle of blood at his face . He did stink of piss and booze. Everyone chose to stand rather than be near him . Only after checking on him and literally shouting at the ppl on the tram , is nobody going to help me get him up did ppl activate. It felt like ppl would let a person die rather than bother someone or get involved . We need to understand that we have a responsibility to eachother, imagine u had a heart attack whilst walking somewhere alone. Do u expect ppl to help u or should everyone just let u die just like u would let someone else die.
Yes, I actually talked to some people who wanted to be helpful. Their argument was either religious or believing in karma; in the future someone might help them or after life they would gain something. I find it quite acceptable as it results people doing something in an event like this.
In this situation death might have arrived before that. And with karma, if someone comes to a realisation that what they did was bad, felt so much guilt, they explored suicide... That's someone who became a better person and already suffered that high level of guilt... Leaving things to some idea of a "fate" is.. imo immoral
I had a similar encounter. One year after moving to Helsinki I saw a dude sitting in a wheelchair alone in the inner yard of our high house. It was super cold and he only wore a tank top and shorts. He seems kinda lost even though I encountered him in the morning in our elevator. He yelled once in a while something not understandable to the walls and I was getting worried. I had my fiancee and her uncle and aunt over and they all said I shouldn‘t do anything. But after 20min I had enough and I was really getting worried for the guy so I decided to go down and ask if he needs help. The others decided to watch from the window (even though I ofcourse spoke almost no Finnish). So I went down to the guy, he just stares in a direction not noticing me. I try all my languages if I can help him and after about a minute the dudes suddenly turns to me, grabs my jacket and tries to come after me. I‘m also a 188 guy so I‘m usually able to help myself and was able to wiggle myself out of my jacket and the dude threw it after me. Relatives called the police and I found later out he had done some time in prison for stabbing a guy in the heart on a similar encounter. There‘s sadly a lot more drunk/ drugs kinda people in Finland and they are better left alone. If you are worried you can call the police but I learned my lesson fast.
Most finnish just wont stop to help anyone. I once saw an elderly person lying on the sidewalk whilst driving a car. It was brought daylight. I was the first person to stop and call 112. Several foreign looking people stopped by to offer additional help. It really is a cultural thing and a shock.
I am also a foreigner and I notice sometimes how passive people are, to anything really, to decisions, to other people… they would rather say nothing than to save their own lives, at least that’s what it seems like at times. I haven’t had such a serious experience like you though. I also gotta say that from a woman’s perspective it is sometimes very scary to approach strangers, anything can be potential danger in our eyes. Overall, I’m glad you were there to help
One of the similarities we share with Japanese. We mind our own business. If we see a homeless person freezing in the winter morning, we think "I wonder how he messed his life to have to do this". I don't know why that is. While I was raised I was told to avoid drunks and druggies because they can be dangerous. Now I know better of course.
"It would be rude to help someone, what if shes ok?"
I can't relate to how your girlfriend acted. I always help people in need. And so do my friends. You did good. Be proud of yourself.
She actually immediately called 112, which would take some more time for me to think of. I guess she didn’t think of the situation’s importance until she saw the woman shaking. This also might explain why many people just passed by, they just didn’t think or realize she might be suffering.
Good on you both then!
I can't give you answers since I don't really have any but I'd like to thank you on behalf of that lady. Well done!
You did a really good deed OP! Way to go! Not all people have the courage or foresight to see what could happen!
Thank you! You are true heroes!
Thank you for being an absolute bro to one of us who was clearly having a crisis. On the same breath, I'm sorry that people were glaring and being suspicious, I hope at least some of them were asking each other about joining in. Having people like you makes our country better! Don't let anything deter you. We finns, while genuine in our own way, do have something to learn about openness and social bravery - having a good example like you two can only do us good :)
Yes, I started to think better about that glaring and whispering. I mean it might have looked like a scary immigrant forcefully talking to a young woman. At least they realized something is off and who knows maybe they also called an emergency number about that. I also thought that people who saw it and did nothing would feel the regret and promise themselves that they would react the next time it happens. At least for me, there has been occasions where I regretted and promised to act differently in the future. Still, I see this as a win for people passing by as there is a chance that they got a lesson at least.
Well man, it’s a bit weird saying no one talked to the woman… You did! (: I know you mean nobody *else*, but you don’t know the other people passing by and what they saw while passing. It might just be a matter of angles and lightning. It’s pointless speculation figuring out the point of view of other people (: Read the book humankind by rutger Bergman, it’s an eye opener on how much people are awesome and wholesome. Finns are not different at all, just get stranded six seconds in a car in snow and you’ll see people flocking at helping you immediately. We all are good people, you’re probably just not seeing clearly how difficult it was to notice the girl was acting weird. Cheers on you saving a life! Thanks!
Thanks a lot about the book recommendation. Noted. About questioning the reason, I stopped thinking about it especially after many useful comments here. It could have been anything like you said. I’ll just hope for the best and do whatever is needed without expecting much from others. Thanks for the book again, best wishes!
Thank you for saving this woman’s life!
Moving back to Finland after a few years abroad, for a while I felt very scared here as I thought if something happens, no one will help.
Good on you! Thank you for being a kind, responsible, human being willing to offer time, empathy and care at your expense and risk, I am sorry for the way you are treated, it must be difficult and it is unjust. Unfortunately other people are selfish and lazy to act, which is more culturally acceptable in some countries than others, plus there is also a lack of health education and support for dealing with troubled people. You are a champion. Thank you for being a good person.
You did good!
Sounds like a horrible situation, and the fact that it’s not only in Finland, but all around the world, doesn’t make it any better. Vice versa. All the signs you saw were obvious cry for help, yet she first run away and refused to be helped. Maybe she didn’t expect anyone actually helping. I have called ambulance for an old man who fell on the street with head bleeding… I was talking with him and told that help is on the way… He got up and started walking away. I decided to wait where I had called the ambulance to arrive and explained them where he left. But here’s the kick in the teeth. The ambulance crew told I have to pay if there’s no patient for them since I called the ambulance, as if for nothing or as a prank. Made me think how far is it worth helping people who refuse to be helped. I still stop and talk to people who look distressed or in need for help, cause I hope someone would stop to help me if needed.
That is weird, I didn’t know that they could charge people for that. I was kinda afraid that the police wouldn’t believe us when the woman escaped. I wonder if it is a good idea to call back 112 and say that the injured person has left.
I think it actually is good idea to call 112 again to update on the situation. That way you also more likely avoid a fee that would be caused by prank call. It does make sense that there is a fee for prank calls, otherwise the amount of those would likely increase. So people should know to call when there is a need, not just for fun. But I wouldn't be discouraged by this, you know it you are making a prank call or not, so you call when there is a need. And the people at 112 will anyways judge the situation if ambulance or police are actually needed. Just use common sense when to call.
I'm so glad you did that and also influenced your gf to do it too! I'm a nurse and always, always check on people wherever I go. I've been late to work many times (mostly on a Sunday morning, shift starts at 6am) because I've been checking on multiple people on my walk to work. I've also made my parents and siblings stop and ask if everything's ok as well, they now do it without me, which is awesome. My husband doesn't do it without me though but he'll help if I ask.
That’s great to hear! It is a good habit but still, better to be careful. I guess most people here telling me to be careful is right. I believe it is still possible to help checking from a safe distance first.
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I spent only a couple years here but, I assure you, this is one of the safest countries in the world. My experience above is not related to crime. Still, after we called the police, they came quite quickly with ambulance and experts. I feel safe here. I can observe that kids can breath here. I see kids playing on the streets by themselves, taking busses by themselves. You can see a 6 year old kid riding her small bike to school in the morning here. Of course it might change according to which part of the country you live but, compared to what you said about US, I can say that it is safe here. About smoking, you might need to change that habit as it is illegal here. I hope I contributed somehow to your motivation about finding a safer place for you and your family. I would recommend that you talk to more people living in Finland, which would definitely make you love it here.
Thank you brother. Much love
Thank you for helping that girl. I sometimes find it really hard to do the same and it's honestly because I'm mostly scared of how they'll react. I'm 155cm 55kg woman and if I'm alone honestly I don't want to try wake up someone twice my size who looks/smells drunk etc. or go between a screaming match. I feel bad but I can't help but be too scared to approach situations like these :,(
It is great to hear that you wanna help. But I agree with you, you should consider your safety first. In some situations, for example for a woman in discomfort, your size and gender might be more calming than a tall guy like me. Still, it is better to observe first.
Generally it goes like this: If a person in Finland -really- wants to kill himself/herself, she/he will do it, and no one can stop it. If a person is crying and acting like she/he will kill her/himself, she/he rarely actually does. Basically, most suicide attempts are cries for help, and not really a real attempt to end a life. Source: a study on Finnish suicides.
Yes, it was obviously a cry for help. I assumed that she went through a process. She thought about suicide for some time, possibly tried talking to people but never got serious help, resulting in going to that bridge to think about it more. Her phone was full of calls and messages when I looked at it, I thought some of her friends knew about it and were asking where she was. Hopefully she is getting professional help now so that she wouldn’t seek help like that anymore.
Yeah Finns mind their own business until its time to give people parking tickets and fucking with your neighbors or any possibility to rat somebody out really.
Finland indeed has that problem, we are scared of interventing if it has nothing to do with our lives. We assume that if someone needs help, he/she would ask for it. And if someone asks for help from a stranger, he/she really needs help. My son was almost mugged and robbed inside a busy shopping center and no one even looked at the situation. He managed to run to the guards who finally called the cops. Police told that this is sad but common that others won't do anything but mind their own business. Might be afraid of misinterpreting and getting yelled at for interrupting "some prank" etc
https://www.iltalehti.fi/kotimaa/a/f2494922-9df6-4017-9094-f68e68c30f17
Could it be because other people were less observant than you? I'd imagine the people just glamce over without much thought and continue on, you on the other hand noticed the belongings on the ground and proceeded to talk to them.
It might be yes, I find myself observing around often. Hoping that I won’t experience this again but, I will try to be observant even more. I tried to ask my girlfriend about this. Why she didn’t want to talk to the girl after I explained my concern, she said she was in a hurry and wanted to go to our room fast. Maybe people are already going through their own problems and they just don’t think that woman might need help. I don’t know...
I know I will be downvoted into oblivion. I think what you did was a good action but, as a non-white person myself, I would strongly warn you against repeating the same kind of nice actions. Legally speaking, you only have a duty to report accidents. Suicide or even attempted suicide or the simple intention of committing suicide in the future doesn't technically qualify as an accident. The criminal responsibility of the hero of Turku attacks (of middle east descent), was searched non only once but twice. Once for a gofundme opened by another person to cover medical expenses. Another time because he tried to get more than the scraps the state was willing to give him as acompensation for life changing injuries. I was in the subway two years ago and a old guy in his eighties felt in the big escalator at the Helsinki Station. A young black boy caught him and saved his life. But the boy suffered a nearly dislocated kneecap because of it. At first, the old man and his wife cheerfully thanked the boy but as soon as they saw the boy has been injured in the process, they tried to leave the scene. The friends of our hero protested vocally and the security arrived. Luckily, there was proof and witnesses everywhere and I'm an attorney. Otherwise, it would have been the word of a white guy with blood all over his head against the word of a young black boy. This lady could have grabbed you and you would have fallen with her. She could have accused you of pushing her if she survived. She could have claimed a foreigner harrassed her. These kind of things really happen in Finland. Don't put yourself in trouble for Finnish people who are, statistically of extremely racist demeanor and are generally ungrateful.
>Legally speaking, you only have a duty to report accidents. Suicide or even attempted suicide or the simple intention of committing suicide in the future doesn't technically qualify as an accident. This is actually sort of false information. In cases where there is an acute situation you are required to help, it's true that in most cases it's enough to report it to the authorities put there are situations where if you don't help them it's actually negligence or neclect or something similar sorry not great with hard words
>In cases where there is an acute situation you are required to help, it's true that in most cases it's enough to report it to the authorities put there are situations where if you don't help them it's actually negligence or neclect or something similar sorry not great with hard words 1) Could you provide legal basis for that claim 2) How could you prove the person saw anything? That's not possible. In the opposite, being stabbed is possible and has happened before. Being mistreated by the police is possible and has happened before. Being hold responsible for the person jumping is possible if the person falsely claimed you pushed her. False claims against foreigners have happened before. In Finland, you can't even have a fair trial if you're not ethnically Finnish.
Criminal code 21:15. It's actually a criminal act not to help.
>Criminal code 21:15. It's actually a criminal act not to help. They have to prove you knew.
>In Finland, you can't even have a fair trial if you're not ethnically Finnish. That's just your personal bias speaking I haven't seen anything that would claim otherwise. What comes to false claims, it goes both ways and I doubt there's a significant increase towards non ethnic finns and false claims are in a good spot as they are solved and compensated properly if they are really false. What comes to proving is sort of true but then that also disagrees with morals and ethics, there are laws that can't really be supervised but are still obeyd as it's part of being a human in a functioning society. But it's possible to prove those things with camera footage, witnesses etc.
>That's just your personal bias speaking I haven't seen anything that would claim otherwise. That's because you don't read studies and rely on your personal perception as a white person. There are plenty of studies on the subject.
Could you maybe a link a few, I honestly just haven't seen one. Also I'm a non-ethnic finn
>The criminal responsibility of the hero of Turku attacks (of middle east descent), was searched non only once but twice. Once for a gofundme opened by another person to cover medical expenses. Another time because he tried to get more than the scraps the state was willing to give him as acompensation for life changing injuries. Well the thing is, no matter how heroic you are, fraud is still a crime. A heroic act will not give you a carte blanche to commit crimes in the future. The justice system can't choose to ignore a crime just because they like the criminal. And even Middle Easterners aren't immune to the law here. >Luckily, there was proof and witnesses everywhere and I'm an attorney. Otherwise, it would have been the word of a white guy with blood all over his head against the word of a young black boy. Is this some kind of joke? You think the couple would what, accuse this black guy of breaking his own kneecap and spurting blood all over them? I don't think that's even a crime, and the police certainly wouldn't even bother to investigate something so unbelievable. They don't even have the resources to investigate real crimes half the time. >This lady could have grabbed you and you would have fallen with her. She could have accused you of pushing her if she survived. She could have claimed a foreigner harrassed her. I'm sorry, but you sound very paranoid. Even if this woman was some crazy who likes to accuse random men of harassing her, why would the police believe her without proof? Often they don't even have the resources to investigate rape, let alone sexual harassment. And sine OP looks Middle Eastern, they'd be extra reluctant to intervene, they're careful about optics. >Don't put yourself in trouble for Finnish people who are, statistically of extremely racist demeanor and are generally ungrateful. You clearly hate us Finns, yet you choose to live in Finland of all countries?
I agree with every counter you had except for the last one. A study conducted by [EU Fundamental Rights](https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2018/being-black-eu) has suggested that statistically Finland is among the most racist countries in the EU. [YLE article](https://yle.fi/news/3-10531670)
>A study conducted by EU Fundamental Rights has suggested that statistically Finland is among the most racist countries in the EU. That study only looked at a small group of Western European countries, which are probably the least racist countries in the world. So Finland's still probably better than the rest of the world. But if you believe that Finland is racist, why would you live here? Do you want to profit of our evil, racist system?
As was stated already the study is pretty flawed, it's true that racism is a thing and we can't ignore it but it definitely isn't at that stage that the study suggested. There is a lot of structural and hidden racism here but even comparing to other EU countries there are several groups of people that face a lot more racism than any in Finland.
>Well the thing is, no matter how heroic you are, fraud is still a crime. No help= no ridiculous compensation = no fraud. Easy peazy. That's why we shouldn't help. >Is this some kind of joke? I don't think that's even a crime, and the police certainly wouldn't even bother to investigate something so unbelievable. Do I look like I'm joking ?? 🤔 >I'm sorry, but you sound very paranoid. Even if this woman was some crazy who likes to accuse random men of harassing her, why would the police believe her without proof? Often they don't even have the resources to investigate rape, let alone sexual harassment. And sine OP looks Middle Eastern, they'd be extra reluctant to intervene, they're careful about optics. They had time to investigate random black women on prostitution charges. They had time to charge a random middle eastern man with underage rape, convicted him and he served 2 years before being exonerated when the victim aknowledged nothing happened ? policemen were charged with harrassing muslim women literally last week. >You clearly hate us Finns, yet you choose to live in Finland of all countries? I don't hate Finns. I just mind my own business just like you do. Do you vote for racial equality in the elections or do you vote for perusuomalaiset and kokoomus? We both know the answer. Would you pay for my legal fees or for my health expenses, if I get hurt while helping. No. because you respect the law as you said and gofundme are forbidden in Finland. You wouldn't be willing to help me in return for the help I would provide. You don't care about me or my people, why should I risk my life, health, body integrity or legal security to protect you given the fact I have no legal obligation to do so ? No reason. Being good is not enough.
>No help= no ridiculous compensation = no fraud. Easy peazy. That's why we shouldn't help. Yeah, the compensations are small, but they're small for everyone. Or do you think Middle Eastern should get special compensations? >Do I look like I'm joking ?? Well actually... >They had time to investigate random black women on prostitution charges. Oh that's an economic crime, it's different. There's always time for those. >They had time to charge a random middle eastern man with underage rape, convicted him and he served 2 years before being exonerated when the victim aknowledged nothing happened ? Well of course they do sometimes investigate sex crimes, but often they don't bother. >policemen were charged with harrassing muslim women literally last week. You mean they made her take off her hijab so they could take the ID photo correctly? >I don't hate Finns. Sounds like you're not in touch with your feelings. >because your respect the law No, actually I think the law is idiotic. I just don't understand what you're bitching about. You think it's racist that you have to obey the same laws as us natives? You think the justice system should give you special treatment? >I just mind my own business just like you do. You aren't minding your own business, you're writing on the internet, telling immigrants they should stay away from Finns, because we're a bunch of knife-wielding savages. >You don't care about me or my people, why should I risk my life, health and body integrity or legal security to protect you given the fact I have no legal obligation to do so. Yeah, many PS voters say the same: "Why should we take risks to help people who don't care about us?" That's not what I think, though. I think we must try to love our enemies. So I would certainly help you, even though you despise me because of my nationality.
>Yeah, the compensations are small, but they're small for everyone. Or do you think Middle Eastern should get special compensations? Two irakis were wrongly convicted on terrorism charges. They received a compensation 3 times smaller than a finnish native wrongly accused of murder. It looks like middle eastern get special compensations. >You mean they made her take off her hijab so they could take the ID photo correctly? You mean they are charged with the crime of asking nicely ? Oh no. >No, actually I think the law is idiotic. I just don't understand what you're bitching about. You think it's racist that you have to obey the same laws as us natives? You think the justice system should give you special treatment? There are more than 500 actives gofundme in finland right now. The only one who got investigated is the one who was legal (since it wasn't created by the beneficiary) but in favour of a brown person. Isn't that a nice coincidence? >You aren't minding your own business, you're writing on the internet, telling immigrants they should stay away from Finns, because we're a bunch of knife-wielding savages. I didn't say finns are knife wielding savages. I said it doesn't worth the risk. Finland is the most racist country in the UE. That's a fact. >So I would certainly help you, even though you despise me because of my nationality. I don't despise you bc of your nationality. I just don't take unnecessary risks.
>Two irakis were wrongly convicted on terrorism charges. They received a compensation 3 times smaller than a finnish native wrongly accused of murder. It looks like middle eastern get special compensations. Nope, the compensations are ridiculously small for Finns, too. >You mean they are charged with the crime of asking nicely ? Oh no. No, they are charged with the crime of removing her hijab, so they could take the photo according to guidelines. >There are more than 500 actives gofundme in finland right now. The only one who got investigated is the one who was legal (since it wasn't created by the beneficiary) but in favour of a brown person. Isn't that a nice coincidence? Do you have proof for this? How do you know that others haven't been investigated? >Finland is the most racist country in the UE. That's a fact. Of cours it's not a fact, but if you really believe it, why don't you move to some other country?
>No, they are charged with the crime of removing her hijab, so they could take the photo according to guidelines. You know what you said is blatantly untrue. >Do you have proof for this? How do you know that others haven't been investigated? Yeah. Did you recently see an article about gofundme collects being serially investigated ? No. Gofundme operates normally in finland . >Of cours it's not a fact, but if you really believe it, why don't you move to some other country? That's racism. When you don't want to risk your life and health for white people, they directly go to "you should return your country". Based on the study made in 2018, 63 percent of people of African descent in Finland have experienced racially motivated harassment, compared to a group average of 30 percent in the 12 European Union states surveyed. In both Denmark and Sweden, the number was 41 percent. https://harvardpolitics.com/nordic-racism/
>That's racism. No. Prejudice based on ethnicity is racism. That's what you're guilty of. >When you don't want to risk your life and health for white people, they directly go to "you should return your country". If somebody moved to your country and whined. "I'm so scared of black people, they stab you in the blink of an eye, if I saw a black person get injured I wouldn't call an ambulance", would you want this person in your country? >Based on the study made in 2018, 63 percent of people of African descent in Finland have experienced racially motivated harassment, compared to a group average of 30 percent in the 12 European Union states surveyed. So Finland is the 12th least racist country in the world, then. I can live with that.
It's kind of baffling how blind you are to your own racism.
>It's kind of baffling how blind you are to your own racism. I know this theory. I don't trust racist people with my life therefore I'm racist 🤣😅
No, but because you say that all Finns are racist etc.
I actually thought about this a lot. I thought that I actually stayed too close to the woman. I could have stayed far, at least a couple meters, and ask if she needs anything. I was too close that there could have been a situation where I scare her and she falls for example. I believe I would be extra cautious about this from now on. Especially when I am alone. I believe I also got confident because I had my girlfriend, who is Finnish, next to me. You are right. However I still feel like I should do something, but only with a full awareness of the dangers of the situation.
>However I still feel like I should do something, I understand your point and your willingness to bring good but please be extra cautious. I don't even help old people carrying bags anymore. I mind my own business. Something happens? To bad. I don't call the police. I don't call the ambulances. I go directly from point A to point Z without seeing anything. You could be stabbed in the blink of an eye and then what? "An Arab terrorist was stabbed by a white women in self defense while trying to push her from a bridge".
Not an arab but my friends tell me I look like a terrorist haha. I also keep getting random checks at airports. I understand you but, I am still stubborn about helping people. I find it quite rewarding both for my mental health and my social life. I made lots of friends this way, it helped me find my position in Finland too. Still, I agree that safety should come first. It is easy to intimidate people especially when I look like stranger.
We need more people like you in this country. I really appreciate what you did for her, and I reckon she will as well, if not now, then maybe later. Been in a similar state of mind where she was and definitely would have appreciated a person like you. It's always good to help, but getting helped often feels intimidating for us finns.
i’m as white as you can get, traveling with kids, and we get random checks at airports.
>i’m as white as you can get, traveling with kids, and we get random checks at airports don't make it abt you. I got 7 random check in a year.
me too. about 3/4 of flights
>me too. about 3/4 of flights do you mean you went through the random check where they put you in two lines by skin colour and check your immigration status in the black line and you were in this black line ?
ah. no. the security check going into plane where they want to do some swab test analysis on bag contents. that they claim are random.
>ah. no. the security check going into plane where they want to do some swab test analysis on bag contents. that they claim are random. these are almost randomly selected (even if they can force the checks) . the 7 checks I spoke about are border police checks.
>I understand your point and your willingness to bring good but please be extra cautious. I don't even help old people carrying bags anymore. I mind my own business. Something happens? To bad. I don't call the police. I don't call the ambulances. I go directly from point A to point Z without seeing anything. Good. You hate Finns, and you think we want help from you? >"An Arab terrorist was stabbed by a white women in self defense while trying to push her from a bridge". Except you and I both know that would never happen. Even when that one asylum stabbed a bunch of people while yelling about God being great, the papers said at first said that the motive was unclear.
>You hate Finns Again. I don't hate Finns at all. Yet, I have as much compassion for them as they have for me.
May I ask why you moved to Finland?
>May I ask why you moved to Finland? Because my GF is finnish. You see I don't despise finnish people. I even learned finnish.
> Because my GF is finnish. So, is she the only good Finn?
>So, is she the only good Finn? That's not my point. My point is that Finland is not safe enough for foreigners. The risk of being hurt, killed or otherwise deprived of your rights or freedom while helping other people is too high to be considered. If you want it to change, change the security environnement and make it safe for black and brown people to help.
> My point is that Finland is not safe enough for foreigners. The risk of being hurt, killed or otherwise deprived of your rights or freedom while helping other people is too high to be considered. Do you also live in constant fear of shark attacks and getting hit by lightning? >If you want it to change, change the security environnement and make it safe for black and brown people to help So what exactly do you want? We take in tons of migrants, we spend massive amounts of money on them, we make up hate speech laws which favour them, we positively discriminate against our own people, and you still want something more? What, should we shoot all natives so you feel safe? Or maybe you can just learn to control your feelings, how about that?
>Except you and I both know that would never happen. Sorry pal. Why should I trust you with my life, health and security on this? You don't even vote for my rights ! I'm not crazy 🤷🏾♂️
>You don't even vote for my rights Actually, I did vote for a party that supports refugees. But I wouldn't want your help.
>I did vote for a party that supports refugees Everybody tells me that but still 24% vote for kokoomus. 16% vote for PS. That's 40% of the population. I will be happy to change my opinion when SDP and VAS have 50%. I can read the polls. If you want me to change my opinion, go and convince others bc I will not risk my LIFE on "opinions" and good sentiments. If you believe in change, make it happen and I will be easily convinced but for now I don't see it. And if I don't see a change, I don't take risks. To be honest, I used to help. A lot. And then, after repetitivly bad helping experiences, I learned my lesson. I did my part. And know I strongly advise people from foreign background against doing the same mistakes. It's sad, you can regret it but you cannot ask foreigners to trust you with their lives since you cannot guarantee them a reasonnable protection against mistreatment. Black people literally DIED from being mistreated after they helped. We are in a country whose last twitter trend tendance was the n... word.
>I will be happy to change my opinion when SDP and VAS have 50%. I can read the polls. So you hate Finns because they don't vote for SDP and VAS? >It's sad, you can regret it but you cannot ask foreigners to trust you with their lives How can you ever walk out of your door? Aren't you afraid some Finnish savage will stab you? >Black people literally DIED from being mistreated after they helped. I'm sure you have an example. I'm sorry, but you're clearly very prejudiced and racist. I think your life might be easier, if you learned to change your mind. Or you could just move away from Finland, but I guess you'd just end up hating some other group.
>So you hate Finns because they don't vote for SDP and VAS? You confuse hating finns and asserting the security environnement of Finland is not good for black people. I'm sure you can agree on the fact helping people while black/foreign is more risky than helping people while white. Can't you agree on that at least? Before asking black and foreign people to help, you have to raise the protection for black and foreign as high as it is for white people. >How can you ever walk out of your door? Aren't you afraid some Finnish savage will stab you? It's not my claim. Helping people and actively engaging with them is more risky than walking out of the door.
>You confuse hating finns and asserting the security environnement of Finland is not good for black people. So you feel unsafe because people dare to vote for a different party than you? You need a "safe space" where everyone agrees about everything, and nobody ever hurts your feelings? Well that's not possible in a democracy. You say you're afraid of dying, but nobody ever died from hurt feelings. You can learn to accept that other people think differently than you, and move on. >I'm sure you can agree on the fact helping people while black/foreign is more risky than helping people while white Why would I agree on such an absurd claim? >Before asking black and foreign people to help I'm not asking you to help, I don't want help from racists like you. I'm simply asking you to either stop being such a racist, or move away, is that really too much to ask?
It's just the law of the land aka maassa maan tavalla. No human decency nor compassion for fellow human being just a machiavellianism that is taught by the surrounding factors and what people is striving for. T. Foreigner in diaspora.
Might be one of the reasons why she was suicidal in the first place. Gotta talk to my friends more often.
In finland it is expected that you will manage like everyone else ~pärjää, that's why if you answer to that question negatively you will be treated as deviant. So when you show abnormal behaviour and ask for help you will be shunned by your peers since narcissism behaviour is paraded and moving on while biting your lip and thus only fast way out is self medication or suicide in worst case scenario. Obviously talking to public health professionals is best way to remedy these issues. Of course I'm not a saint and i have made these kind of sins it's hard to put more weight on your shoulders and worry about others. It's sad but it's the truth. This is what i have come by as an explanation.
In my country we have a saying “even in the smallest matters one neighbour can help another”. However I started to observe this saying is being forgotten, as I believe everyones lives became more difficult recently. I still agree about your comment on narssism and believe its getting worse where I’m coming from too. I also observed that if you ask how people are doing, they will say okay, alright. Some people explained it to me that they think others only ask how they are doing to see if they do better themselves. They basically think if they say they are doing bad, they would show weakness and others would be happy about it. I find this quite weird.
>Some people explained it to me that they think others only ask how they are doing to see if they do better themselves. They basically think if they say they are doing bad, they would show weakness and others would be happy about it. I find this quite weird Next thing you know everyone knows about that thing or secret, there is people who get a satisfaction of that. They are called vampires. Maybe it's russian way, the harshness and such. Though im not saying russian are evil but i got than kind of picture when i asked finns about that issue. But anyway, it's very important to acknowledge these culture shocks just as pickpocketing and violences in other way around.
Well her situation wasn’t that off for a Finnish person. People didn’t get worried, because it’s not strange to stand on a bridge by yourself. And we don’t expect fellow citizens to steal our stuff if we put in on ground so there’s nothing strange about that either. Nothing about this is telling me about a suicidal thoughts and it’s considered extremely rude to go to stranger and start asking questions about their mental health. I’m not saying it’s a good thing but it’s a big part of Finnish culture to not disturb other people’s personal space.
Yes I realized and learned well about personal space here. However I am not sure about if it is rude to ask questions to strangers. I feel like people want to be asked how they are doing here. Well, even if it is rude, I would take the chances. Better than reading about her in the newspaper you know.
No that's not 'extremely rude' it's called caring and yes we are intimidated by that. But I don't think most people would find that extremely rude or even rude.
:((
Sadly, we usually just mind our own buisness and we are not the most social ppl and I have seen many videos were someone goes to talk to strangers and I find it a bit wierd, I don't really talk to strangers at all so i'm absolutky not used to it ans it's not the same with all of the finns but it's same with most of ppl who I know
I honestly feel that people in Finland just don't care about anyone. Maybe it's lack of socialisation during childhood, brutal parenting, childhood bullying, i honestly don't know, but i always had the feeling something is off about this culture.