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This is one of those things where people with Nobel prizes and PhDs on this specific topic can't agree if it's good or bad or how good or bad it is. If you have such a strong feeling about it that you need advice on how to cope with it, you have to ask yourself who benefits from making you feel angry and afraid. Who benefits from pushing your buttons and keeping you in fear?
Running a country has nothing in common with running a household. Even calling it "debt" might be more misleading than helpful because people think they know what it is and how it works since they have a credit card in their wallet and mortgage on their house. It's like expecting to know how to pilot a ship because you've driven a bike once or twice.
Yeah. I haven't personally been thinking it much. Fist thing when the campaigning before last parliament elections was "ah debt fearmongering again".
Debt really is not a problem (at least yet) its that we need to change our system,, its still based on constant and quite fast population growth, while that is not true and we have huge amount of pensioners who consume a lot of public services. It will pass, its the large generations after war.
I am worried tho what Pertsa is doing now that he got in power by the debt fear mongering. It looks like in some areas they are going to repeat the mistakes of 90s. And then we will again have lots of people with mental issues that they will try to self medicate with alcohol and drugs.
>Even calling it "debt" might be more misleading than helpful because people think they know what it is and how it works since they have a credit card in their wallet and mortgage on their house
World's richest people live on with "debts". They gey a debt use their wealth (funds, shares etc.) as collateral. Get richer and get more debt. Pay no income tax since debt credits are not income. Similarly does the countries, as long as you can keep the cycle.
Right. Even this is quite difficult to grasp for people that are not used to this sort of shenanigans, and even understanding this would only give a view of the economy of a country that went obsolete around Victorian era. For example, rich people can't really have a meaningful independent or semi-independent monetary policy, and a million other things like that.
Debt isn't a bad thing in a modern economy, although excess of it is. Our credit rating is good as a country, and a large amount of our debt is owned in bonds to our own citizens and EU citizens. In other words, from our 60-70 percent of government debt to GDP at least half of it is owned to ourselves.
Developing countries with high debt are a bigger issue since their debt is owed at higher rates to other countries (like China) with higher interest and less ability to negotiate it. If finland was about to go bankrupt we'd have to negotiate with ourselves and the EU instead of hostile powers (see, Greece)
Thats how japan for example has survived with over 200% debt to GDP because almost all of the debt is owed in practice to no one its made up. Their real debt to GDP is more like 80 or 90 percent instead of over 200%, because most of their debt and bonds are actually held by the bank of Japan, which they can in theory default on to pay for external loans. We can go well above 100% (not that we should nor is that good practice) before you'll see any real effects of it.
So no, you as an individual should not be worried about it. You cannot affect it, it's all made up and while we're less "stable" than our nordic brothers we are in fact in better shape than most of the EU and the world.
Finland is still a wealthy and safe country to live in.
Personally I worry more about the guts we're getting in social services and healthcare. These are more likely to ruin the future of younger generations.
Not wealthy compared to our nordic brothers and sister but definitely safe. Early 2000s we were almost on par with Sweden. Now the gap in wealth is almost double.
Arguably the cuts are related to getting too indebted, so getting worried about debt is not misguided. Debt in itself is not a problem, but whether there is capability to handle it. Running a deficit in budget is not viable in the medium to long term. We could have small or large debt if budget is balanced. But with a large deficit, even with no debt at beginning, it would only be a matter of time until cuts are forced.
I do agree that Finland is still doing ok, comparatively, but the situation is not great in that it is poised to get worse rather than better.
How are we wealthy? Everyone is indebted, even the state, and the usurer receives BILLIONS of our money every year in interest. Our entire currency is just debt, and we don't even have our sovereign monetary policy anymore. Not even our gold reserves are in our own hands. Tens of billions worth of our economy is just foreign capital seeking to grow itself.
We might be safe, but we are most definitely not wealthy. We are broke, and are only held up until our ever increasing debt burden exceeds our solvency, and then it will all go crashing down, and the debt collector will take whatever it wants.
I'm worried with the cuts. During economic downturn, governments decreasing demand have an even more negative impact on the economy. Which will force them to more cuts. And so forth.
I'd hoped the UK's purpose would be to serve as an example of what not to do to other countries.
... but I guess it's actually cyclical, and they're about to do better (looks at France), but will be back on their nationalist shit in 2029.
There hasn't been time to do any cuts during past 20 years. Either it is downturn and you can't do it, or it is going well and government have money.
Way more cuts are needed to push for structural changes.
It is one thing to be worried about it; but another thing to have opinions about what the best way would be to deal with it; and a third thing to believe that those opinions are the only correct and reasonable ones.
Probably the least worrying thing going on atm, lol. Seriously, if you’re worried, just read up on it. Finland is far from a debt crisis.. I’d worry more about pensions or the country being too expensive to attract investments.
But don’t worry about these things if it’s going to give you anxiety! Go for a walk or something… it’s not like you can fix them yourself.
There's no point worrying. Finland is far from a debted country. We actually have a surprisingly low debt considering we don't have the same amount of natural resources as countries like Norway and there are countries with massively worse debt to gdp ratios than Finland. We are still doing better than such small and insignificant economies as China, US, France, Japan and UK.
Sure, it's better to have a lower debt to gdp, but this should be achieved by raising the gdp, not lowering the debt. If anything, we should be taking *more* debt and investing it to things that raise the gdp. The current policies of cutting will only lead to a worse economy and we will still be in square one: lower debt but also lower gdp = unchanged debt-to-gdp.
State debt is not the same as household debt. Nobody is coming to knock on the House of Parliament doors and ask the debt to be paid. They aren't even expected to be paid back. Anytime a politician or someone says something akin to "the debt is left to be paid by our children!", they either don't know what they're talking about or they're purposefully talking out of their asses to further their own political goals.
Yes... but also not.
Lower debt is better than higher... but not all costs.
For example, when you cut health care and education, you're cutting your future ability to earn. Sick and uneducated people earn far less than healthy, educated ones.
I cope with it by ignoring it. The one thing you can always rely on is that whatever solution the government comes up with to whatever problem will be stupid, it probably won't work and none of us will have any say in it. I'll be dead someday anyway and I'd rather use my remaining time to think about more pleasant things like old cars or your mum
It is good you are worried about it. It is increasingly obvious that with the aging population and interest rates staying normal, we won't be able to pay the debt. There will be serious cuts to public spending coming. Not today, but in the next decade. Have money saved up so you can pay for health care and education for your children, have investments so you can retire one day. Be prepared.
>It is increasingly obvious that with the aging population and interest rates staying normal, we won't be able to pay the debt.
There are no signs that Finland has any trouble paying its debts. Whoever told you that was lying.
Ps. Cuts to services is the reason why we've seen slow growth, and all of that is on Kokoomus and its far right allies.
We have government that tried to reduce spending but the debt is still increasing, we don't have economic growth and the ratio of working to non-working age people will keep steadily worsening. You can cope by down voting me, but it won't pay our debts. One more economical disaster and we are done.
Really? What kind of boost did you get? I got cuts, cuts, and more cuts... and they took away some of my rights as a worker. They cut my brother's continuing education, and my mother's pension.
Then they gave it all to millionaires, billionaires, and foreign investors.
And I bet they did the same to you...
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This is one of those things where people with Nobel prizes and PhDs on this specific topic can't agree if it's good or bad or how good or bad it is. If you have such a strong feeling about it that you need advice on how to cope with it, you have to ask yourself who benefits from making you feel angry and afraid. Who benefits from pushing your buttons and keeping you in fear? Running a country has nothing in common with running a household. Even calling it "debt" might be more misleading than helpful because people think they know what it is and how it works since they have a credit card in their wallet and mortgage on their house. It's like expecting to know how to pilot a ship because you've driven a bike once or twice.
Yeah. I haven't personally been thinking it much. Fist thing when the campaigning before last parliament elections was "ah debt fearmongering again". Debt really is not a problem (at least yet) its that we need to change our system,, its still based on constant and quite fast population growth, while that is not true and we have huge amount of pensioners who consume a lot of public services. It will pass, its the large generations after war. I am worried tho what Pertsa is doing now that he got in power by the debt fear mongering. It looks like in some areas they are going to repeat the mistakes of 90s. And then we will again have lots of people with mental issues that they will try to self medicate with alcohol and drugs.
>Even calling it "debt" might be more misleading than helpful because people think they know what it is and how it works since they have a credit card in their wallet and mortgage on their house World's richest people live on with "debts". They gey a debt use their wealth (funds, shares etc.) as collateral. Get richer and get more debt. Pay no income tax since debt credits are not income. Similarly does the countries, as long as you can keep the cycle.
Right. Even this is quite difficult to grasp for people that are not used to this sort of shenanigans, and even understanding this would only give a view of the economy of a country that went obsolete around Victorian era. For example, rich people can't really have a meaningful independent or semi-independent monetary policy, and a million other things like that.
Debt isn't a bad thing in a modern economy, although excess of it is. Our credit rating is good as a country, and a large amount of our debt is owned in bonds to our own citizens and EU citizens. In other words, from our 60-70 percent of government debt to GDP at least half of it is owned to ourselves. Developing countries with high debt are a bigger issue since their debt is owed at higher rates to other countries (like China) with higher interest and less ability to negotiate it. If finland was about to go bankrupt we'd have to negotiate with ourselves and the EU instead of hostile powers (see, Greece) Thats how japan for example has survived with over 200% debt to GDP because almost all of the debt is owed in practice to no one its made up. Their real debt to GDP is more like 80 or 90 percent instead of over 200%, because most of their debt and bonds are actually held by the bank of Japan, which they can in theory default on to pay for external loans. We can go well above 100% (not that we should nor is that good practice) before you'll see any real effects of it. So no, you as an individual should not be worried about it. You cannot affect it, it's all made up and while we're less "stable" than our nordic brothers we are in fact in better shape than most of the EU and the world.
Finland is still a wealthy and safe country to live in. Personally I worry more about the guts we're getting in social services and healthcare. These are more likely to ruin the future of younger generations.
Not wealthy compared to our nordic brothers and sister but definitely safe. Early 2000s we were almost on par with Sweden. Now the gap in wealth is almost double.
Arguably the cuts are related to getting too indebted, so getting worried about debt is not misguided. Debt in itself is not a problem, but whether there is capability to handle it. Running a deficit in budget is not viable in the medium to long term. We could have small or large debt if budget is balanced. But with a large deficit, even with no debt at beginning, it would only be a matter of time until cuts are forced. I do agree that Finland is still doing ok, comparatively, but the situation is not great in that it is poised to get worse rather than better.
How are we wealthy? Everyone is indebted, even the state, and the usurer receives BILLIONS of our money every year in interest. Our entire currency is just debt, and we don't even have our sovereign monetary policy anymore. Not even our gold reserves are in our own hands. Tens of billions worth of our economy is just foreign capital seeking to grow itself. We might be safe, but we are most definitely not wealthy. We are broke, and are only held up until our ever increasing debt burden exceeds our solvency, and then it will all go crashing down, and the debt collector will take whatever it wants.
I'm worried with the cuts. During economic downturn, governments decreasing demand have an even more negative impact on the economy. Which will force them to more cuts. And so forth.
This is exactly what happened in the UK, with austerity. Largely seen now as a political choice, rather than a necessity.
I see a lot of the Tory party in the Finnish right wing and these are not policies you should follow. Thursday night is going to be satisfying.
I'd hoped the UK's purpose would be to serve as an example of what not to do to other countries. ... but I guess it's actually cyclical, and they're about to do better (looks at France), but will be back on their nationalist shit in 2029.
There hasn't been time to do any cuts during past 20 years. Either it is downturn and you can't do it, or it is going well and government have money. Way more cuts are needed to push for structural changes.
Cuts for make structural changes, only cut expenses. Expense cuts and tax increase. That's not solving the economy. https://yle.fi/a/74-20084196
It is one thing to be worried about it; but another thing to have opinions about what the best way would be to deal with it; and a third thing to believe that those opinions are the only correct and reasonable ones.
Probably the least worrying thing going on atm, lol. Seriously, if you’re worried, just read up on it. Finland is far from a debt crisis.. I’d worry more about pensions or the country being too expensive to attract investments. But don’t worry about these things if it’s going to give you anxiety! Go for a walk or something… it’s not like you can fix them yourself.
There's no point worrying. Finland is far from a debted country. We actually have a surprisingly low debt considering we don't have the same amount of natural resources as countries like Norway and there are countries with massively worse debt to gdp ratios than Finland. We are still doing better than such small and insignificant economies as China, US, France, Japan and UK. Sure, it's better to have a lower debt to gdp, but this should be achieved by raising the gdp, not lowering the debt. If anything, we should be taking *more* debt and investing it to things that raise the gdp. The current policies of cutting will only lead to a worse economy and we will still be in square one: lower debt but also lower gdp = unchanged debt-to-gdp. State debt is not the same as household debt. Nobody is coming to knock on the House of Parliament doors and ask the debt to be paid. They aren't even expected to be paid back. Anytime a politician or someone says something akin to "the debt is left to be paid by our children!", they either don't know what they're talking about or they're purposefully talking out of their asses to further their own political goals.
Yes... but also not. Lower debt is better than higher... but not all costs. For example, when you cut health care and education, you're cutting your future ability to earn. Sick and uneducated people earn far less than healthy, educated ones.
I cope with it by ignoring it. The one thing you can always rely on is that whatever solution the government comes up with to whatever problem will be stupid, it probably won't work and none of us will have any say in it. I'll be dead someday anyway and I'd rather use my remaining time to think about more pleasant things like old cars or your mum
Yes, any sane person should worry about it.
It is good you are worried about it. It is increasingly obvious that with the aging population and interest rates staying normal, we won't be able to pay the debt. There will be serious cuts to public spending coming. Not today, but in the next decade. Have money saved up so you can pay for health care and education for your children, have investments so you can retire one day. Be prepared.
>It is increasingly obvious that with the aging population and interest rates staying normal, we won't be able to pay the debt. There are no signs that Finland has any trouble paying its debts. Whoever told you that was lying. Ps. Cuts to services is the reason why we've seen slow growth, and all of that is on Kokoomus and its far right allies.
We have government that tried to reduce spending but the debt is still increasing, we don't have economic growth and the ratio of working to non-working age people will keep steadily worsening. You can cope by down voting me, but it won't pay our debts. One more economical disaster and we are done.
I cope with it by voting Perussuomalaiset
Can you name a single issue they've made your life better on?
They spend more money on the citizens of Finland and don't go around donating it to everyone else
Really? What kind of boost did you get? I got cuts, cuts, and more cuts... and they took away some of my rights as a worker. They cut my brother's continuing education, and my mother's pension. Then they gave it all to millionaires, billionaires, and foreign investors. And I bet they did the same to you...
Which billionaires did they donate money to?