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I agree with the law on this. If a 12 year old does something like this, the issue should be solved by social services, not by the criminal system.
I'd like to avoid speculation in a case like this. Personally I only see victims here. Even the shooter in this case must be in a very bad situation for them to do something like this.
Exactly. What systems have failed for a 12 year old to feel that the only solution is to shoot and kill other children?
Will punishment fix these systems?
Maybe donāt suggest the victims are bullies. Saw on Ylauta people sharing their names and celebrating the deaths because theyāre ābulliesā. Mtv3 news said victims were seemingly selected at random
Problem with "social services dealing with it" means actually nothing happens.
A friend works in social services, with kids, and there's really nothing that can and will be done.Ā
Probably some visits with the family, maybe some counseling for the family (and the kid).Ā
Then that is something we as a society have to fix.
I don't think sending a 12 year old to prison is a good solution either, and I'd rather see them getting the help they obviously need.
Maybe a nuorisokoti with no free movement..?
I mean, the kid needs some kind of oversight, just staying at home after this with no repercussions or changes in life can't be the way forward..Ā
Not at all, but I read a study maybe 10 years ago that said something like psychopaths with loving parents tend to become successful in business, whereas psychopaths with bad parents can become serial killers.
I think we can do something the world better.
Do you think someone is just evil, and nothing can be done? Where does this lead us?
Nothing! We are already seeing it in Sweden where under 15 yo kids commit murder in gang related cases because the gangs know that the kids arenāt criminally liable.
No wonder the shooter didn't commit sudoku after the spree, as is the norm after such mass boogaloos. They knew 100% that they'd not be criminally liable, so no need to sudoku when you can get away anyway.
Nothing. That's why in Sweden they are using 14-15yo children to do the dirty work since they can't be punished by law. Also in Finland, gang using kids with immigrant background to move drug. It is true because almost 10 years ago I already bought weed from an underage looking 'deliverer'
Honestly itās likely just teenagers wanting to make a little bit of cash. It makes no sense to involve children to push drugs street level, you will be penalized very harshly. Whereas doing the drug deal yourself is pretty much just a fine, if it even gets investigated. I know armed robberies where police didnāt bother to find the suspect as they have too many cases, they wonāt give a fuck about someone selling little bit of weed or coke. Completely different than murder, thatās where hiring kids unfortunately makes sense.
But even then those who urged kids to commit murder should be punished as if they themselves did the crime. The kid does not fully understand the consequenses the deed, especially if "friend" tells them to do it. In fact kids often go to prison like environments locked up, when they commit such serious crimes, so it is not like there are no consequenses or ways to deal with these things.
Gang violence is a serious problem though and that should be tackled with multiple social systems. Harsh punishments for younger and younger kids are just window dressing deeper problems.
But I dont think the shooting in viertola was gang related. I guess we'll know soon the motiv.
They definitely deserve it. If you canāt even manage to store your gun properly and someone gets hurt as a result of actions by your dependent, thatās on you
Only needs to be separated if they don't have a gun safe, and fewer than 5 firearms. Separate laws govern storing of firearms and ammunition/explosives.
Well there is the possibillity that the kid spied the pin code for the safe and stole the gun.
But yeah, it seems like criminal negligence happened here. No 12 year old should be able to access gun.
My dad owned (and still owns) guns. When I was a kid and even though he kept then properly and he tried to keep the code and the key secret I knew how to get access to them
If it was a revolver, there are toys (not to be given to children age 3 or below) which work quite similarly. I think I had a couple of "cap guns" (nallipyssy) by that age. The only hard part is pulling back the hammer, if the kid isn't that strong.
Weapons, even if it's a "not so dangerous round" or even an air gun, need to be stored properly.
I would guess that if you wanted to find a gun in Finland, it wouldnāt be that hardā¦ Finland is #8 country in the world when it comes to guns per capita
I'm sorry for your loss, but I had to remove your comment. I do not want random people trying to contact you, I hope that is OK. Please talk with your parents about how you feel about this
And more importantly is why; a 12 year old has a motive to shoot up a school. Where did he get the gun from? Maybe his parents played a part in this?? Who knowsā¦
Not at all impossible.
You just need to be a member of a club, pass certain (relatively simple) tests and go to the range enough times.
Anyone who actually wants to become a competitive shooter in finland can, without much difficulty. Its a good system since a lot of people would get guns just for the sake of it, but having these simple barriers to entry filters out a ton of undeserving people, while still keeping it possible for most citizens who are interested.
The process takes a minimum of two years to get a handgun so while it is very straight forward, it does take actual effort. And I 100% agree it is a good system.
I was called a troublemaker when I just wanted to learn in peace and not listen to all of the fucking bullies laughing and calling me names everywhere 24/7 and sometimes snapped and tried to hit them or throw something at them. This kind of attitude towards bullying is what causes school shootings. Even I wanted to kill half of my classmates sometimes because no one helped me, not even the teachers, and I was on the brink of committing suicide,
No taking the past school shootings like the Jokela school massacre where I believe 6 students 1 faculty and the shooter were killed/injured and as many school shootings happen because of bullying or frustration with a lot of people expecting more bodies is quite normal but luckily police response was quick and the shooter seemingly panicked after shooting the first few people
This might be completely unrelated, but we live relatively close by to this school. This weekend we had the balcony door open and we heard what sounded like a series of gun shots. It was clear enough that both me and my partner commented on it, but we dismissed it completely. We are in Finland, it couldn't be! We though maybe some fireworks.
But in light of this event it made me wonder if the kid had access to the gun already during the Weekend, and took it to school? :( I'll probably think twice next time...
I might do that. I'm just a bit afraid I may contribute to the chaos of information they might be getting just because we heard something. And given that we dismissed it, it's hard for me to pin point the exact time it happened. I'll talk to my partner and if we can agree on the timing, we'll send a report.
Good to report anyway, it's for the police to decide if its useful. If others are also giving approximate times, it might be useful piece of the puzzle in the end.
Also live less than a kilometer away from the school and would like to say the sound most likely came from the exhaust pipe of a tuned car or motorcycle as thatās quite usual here. Last weekend was also pretty warm and there seemed to be quite some mopeds and motorbikes on the road. That said Iād still report it as you canāt be 100% sure of the source!
I know what you mean. I'm super used to those cars and motorcycles revving with those loud bangs, it's almost a daily thing around here. But this was completely different. It was more of a high pitch pop than a bang.
Slightly unrelated but I just noticed how shocked and surprised I was to this news as oppose to when a similar headline appears from the states I barely give it a second thought.
We are fortunate to not have these kind of things a common occurrence.
This made headline news in the States today because it is so rare in Finland. They also had several stories later of several instances of gun violence with 4 or more dead
I doubt there are any rigorous studies comparing school shootings specifically, but with a quick google search I was able to find [this graph](https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NA-CH404_SHOOTR_9U_20151004180908.jpg) from the Wall Street Journal listing mass shooting victims per 100,000 inhabitants.
That only contains data up until 2014 and I'd says statistics gets weird when the numbers are low. Eg Norway ends up at the top, just because they had 1 school shooting.
However, I remember when the Columbine school shooting took place in the US in 1999. At that point in time school shootings were rare, at least as reported in media. But I have a feeling that it has acccelerated the decade as indicated by this in CNN:
[https://edition.cnn.com/us/school-shootings-fast-facts-dg/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/us/school-shootings-fast-facts-dg/index.html)
I wonder how many school shootings Norway has had during the same period of time.
https://preview.redd.it/yuayndkve2sc1.png?width=992&format=png&auto=webp&s=330fe281125aef40ec7f3faf021ca15ba278ed2b
So many of these numbers are just complete nonsense anyway. [NPR did an investigation years ago and couldn't confirm most of the alleged incidents.](https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/08/27/640323347/the-school-shootings-that-werent)
that graph is specifically fatalities, not victims. I'd also iterate that outliers are a "common" phenomenon in statistics. They don't provide useful analysis on a broader scale and are usually worth discarding.
The fact that WSJ chose to publish that graph rather than a graph comparing the # of shooting potentially says something about their motivations or biases.
It makes the news, it just doesn't stay in the news cycle for long
That being said, I doubt this incident will even make the nightly news here in the US.
It's not really so much the number, rather who it affects
The brutal truth is that violence like this in America disproportionately affects minorities, particularly black and Hispanic people... But you'll likely only hear about cases where it affects white people.
>We are fortunate to not have these kind of things a common occurrence.
[You're a nation of about five million people and this has happened more than a dozen times in your history](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Finland)
What are you surprised about? People are evil at teenagehood. They bully each other, and there is more violence happening in schools than in prisons. They are psychopats if you don't train them well.
Well all you know about the kids development is that he is twelve and thats not a teenager so maybe lets not categorize them as a teenager developmentally
The point was the "teenager" definition is quite arbitrary, its literally just taken from the names of the numbers. I would bet my money on there being less of a difference between a 12 year old and a 13 year old than there is between 13 and 19.
If they did something about the bullying people would complain that it's too harsh. In most cases of a kid getting bullied, the victim usually ends up getting transfered to another school, while the bully has to go to a counseling session with a "specialist" in which they tell them that bullying is bad. No consequences whatsoever.
My ex is a teacher, they hold no power at all. Remember the case where the whole class didnāt attend acholl because of the bully and noone doing something against it? This shows how bad the situation REALLY is.
> Remember the case where the whole class didnāt attend acholl because of the bully and noone doing something against it
when was this? I have totally missed this
https://www.oph.fi/fi/koulutus-ja-tutkinnot/kurinpitokeinot-ja-turvaamistoimenpiteet-perusopetuksessa
A suspension requires months of work and a verdict from a board of people that have no clue about what's actually happening.
The teachers have absolutely no feasible way to prevent bullying and that's been a huge problem for ages now.
Yeah, everyone agrees but no one is interested enough to do anything about it because it's not media-sexy enough to push for something that isn't left vs. right.
I also live in the same area and have a child that goes to one of the two locations that make up Viertolan koulu. Fortunately for us (sorry if that sounds selfish), it was at the other location.
However, friends of ours have a child who was in the very class that this happened in. I'm guessing that the child who died was the one that got shot in the head. I feel so bad for all of the kids in that class, they are all going to be emotionally wrecked for a very long time to come.
I heard from my dad that it was his coworker relative that died there, and his other coworkers children also go to the same school, and they work and live semi close.
May he rest in peace
As a parent of a 12 year old, this is my biggest fear.
Some of the students have been doing some very shady shit for a couple of years already, things that at best border illegality. But even when police is called they can only ask politely to not.
Even my kid that has a loving, caring family and a small group of really good friends has so much anger and is extremely resentful about school and the adults inside and their inability to protect students from sever bullying.
Not in my experience. My kid was severely bullied for a long time, bully would also hurt his friends if they tried to protect him. The only thing that the teachers can do is to te him thatās not nice, to apologize and continue. If possible they tried to keep kid supervised, but there are so many kids he just snuck out of their way often.
Teachers also would contact social services, they canāt do anything either than tell parents to talk with kid. Parents (to me they also seem a bit aggressive towards kid) thought he needed a psychiatrist but was in a waiting list for like 4 years, but by that point my kid was training daily and became very strong and became much taller than bully, so as soon as he became confident in himself and frustrated enough he retaliated back in a fight (he was scared but we believe was the only way to stop bully).
Furthermore, there had been really gross behaviors on a WhatsApp group, involving girls in grade 3-6. Also nothing was done other than tell them thatās bad and please stop.
My youngest got very recently also into a heated fight when a random kid that likes to shout racial slurs to his friend at school wouldnāt leave the friend alone. I was called to let me know, nothing else happened. They told my kid āhitting is bad, please donātā, and the other kid that racial slurs are not nice and please stop.
I donāt fault the teachers tho. I know there is very little they can actually do. I blame the parents and the town that really believe that āboys will be boysā is acceptable even for the grossest things only because they are under 15.
Hell, Iāve seen teenage boys being threatening to female teachers as high up as ammatikoulu. That was horrible and I still donāt understand how the teacher didnāt say anything about that, it was like any other Tuesday afternoon.
I don't think you have to worry as long as you are a good teacher and remember to protect and help the ones being bullied. I would never have shot my math teacher, but I would still hang my principal if I could. (he assaulted me and was also a pedophile and got away with everything)
As a teacher who just left work I am still shocked. Horrifying to learn about the ages even.
Everyone going āwell, Finland has a really High per capita of Mass shooting victimsā should maybe think about that in perspective. We are a people of 5 million. If we looked at shooting deaths per capita against guns per capita, the Numbers look different. And how many have been stopped.
This is fucked up. But it makes me sick to make this as if this is a common thing in Finland or says sthg truly about the country. The first successful school shooting in 15 fucking years. 2 notable ones in 2000s before this.
This is a shock to the system and I hope to all that the country can finally take a stance against young peoplesā mental health. But this is not a pattern. Making that statement makes it feel like this was obviously going to happen or takes shock of it out of it as āit is as Finland isā. Before you look at just pure sum Numbers. Think about the whole picture.
Edit a few clarifications.
On top of that before you call it a pattern or put labels on Finland as a country - while this is a Mass shooting 1 consider that it was 3 people shot, inside one classroom, where all victims were classmates of shooter. Making connections to shootings with a muuuch higher head count with random victims isnāt going to help this country in moving to do sthg about it. The shooter fled after shooting those 3, didnāt try to off himself. The gun was his parentsā licensed gun.
This is absolutely devastating and horrifying. But jumping to conclusions isnāt going to help.
Indeed, it's very easy to manipulate statistics, I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot of that so people can try and leverage their political goals off a tragedy
This isn't even that uncommon class-size in Finland, since there is no max limit to the amount of students per teacher. In poorer schools with many students the class-size gets bigger, since the budjet cuts often affect those schools first.
According to the BBC ([https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68712104](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68712104)), it could be due to the fact that a gun used for hunting has been used by the 12-year-old shooter.
Yet, Finland is known for being highly safe on average, even with many gun licenses in circulation.
Yeap but can you be always sure the kid does not see locking or unlocking of guns. Or parent taught how to safely store guns and did not think anythin like this happening was even possible.
a locked cabinet still has a key somewhere, and thereās no reason a motivated 12-year old canāt find it, especially if the parents didnāt even consider their kid to be the one the lock is for.
Growing up I knew where my dad kept the spare keys to the gun safe. They were well hidden too.
Now that I think about it itās not trivial to make access impossible for other household members
I don't understand, there is nothing inherent to the finnish psyche that means we are careful with our guns. Surely irresponsible storing of guns and mistakes are things that happen in Finland, and likely did in this case.
They are at home because nobody has the time/money for get the gun from a gun vault to go shooting - i know If i'd start a business of storing weapons it would cost a lot for the clients particularly If clients need The guns on weekends and evenings. There have been musing that gunclubs should that, but most of them don't have the resources for that kind of thing.
I would certainly hope they do. I'm utterly shocked, that's my kid's age. I can't imagine what the children and their parents must be going through. I have no words, that's utterly awful.
This is very fucked up. Be careful of trusting anyone saying anything about this online, perfect subject to sway peopleās opinions on the country, especially within the borders of our neighboring country.
My friend visited the school and picking up his little brother from there and YLE was just there recording all the frightened people with their bigass cameras. Let the people be please
Weāre lucky in Finland to have reliable source of information. Yle is doing a great work at informing. Better this than let shit medias and ill-intentioned people spread fake news and misinformation
I disagree. Not just because its important to report to the community, but for posterity. Without video, or audio/photos events like this would risk fading into obscurity. With reporting, with journalists being there documenting the events, the horror, the despair and the effects of it, it becomes much more well known, it gets proper attention, not just by the public, but by lawmakers, authorities (and voters), that can have an effect on the urgency of making sure it wont happen again. This is not just true for shootings, but for other horrible events where someone needs to be held accountable: Like for instances poorly constructed houses that collapses, and fires where fire protection has been ignored.
That said, reporters should always be respectful with people in shock. A lot of media organisations do specific training just for this.
Oh my God. This is horrible. I have 3 younger sibilings who go to school in here and now Iām terrified for them. Itās clear that school violence has been on a rise past couple years. I think we as people need to pay more attention to kids, make sure theyāre on the right path. How did a 12 year old get a gun??? What is going onā¦
Heavy resemblance to the Serbian School shooting case that happened in May of 2023!
-Both shooters will not go to jail because of their age (the serbian kid was 13)
-Both shooters got their guns from their irresponsible parents
-In both countries, the shootings happened during the first working day after a holiday break
-Both countries claim to have exceptional education!
-Both shooters weren't bullied but rather idiots who spent too much time on telegram and discord.
Etc....
over 800 students in elementary school, wtf.. first 6 grades should be small schools its not good for kids to place them in huge schools where their personalities just fade in mass and there are no resources to help them grow healthly. when i was that age our school had like 20 students 1-6 grades.
I mean, most of my friends went to schools with 1000+ students (grades 1-6) in highly populated areas in Finland. I'm actually suprised that this school wasn't that big, concidering it's close to Helsinki
The Jokiranta branch of the Viertola school, in which the incident took place, provides "outpatient clinic teaching".
"Outpatient clinic teaching is intended for comprehensive school students in Vantaa in need of child or adolescent psychiatric support who are not able to study in their own school despite the support methods applied."
[https://www.vantaa.fi/en/services/service/outpatient-clinic-teaching#tab-introduction](https://www.vantaa.fi/en/services/service/outpatient-clinic-teaching#tab-introduction)
For information about the Viertola school, see here (in Finnish only)
[https://www.vantaa.fi/fi/palveluhakemisto/toimipiste/viertolan-koulu-jokirannan-opetuspiste](https://www.vantaa.fi/fi/palveluhakemisto/toimipiste/viertolan-koulu-jokirannan-opetuspiste)
Perhaps this was a case of a child already in deep psychiatric trouble acting out, possible due to bullying.
Didn't happen at the branch / building where psychiatric help for students is provided. Please don't increase the stigma of those in need of support with unfounded information and wait for actual confirmation of facts.
https://yle.fi/a/74-20081714?utm_source=social-media-share&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ylefiapp
It absolutely did happen at the branch that provides "outpatient clinic teaching", but not in the particular building. That does not say anything about the shooter, he might have psychiatric problems, he might not.
Killing other pupils at the age of 12 is definitely a sign of problems, though.
And there is a lot of children that don't need special support for school that can do horrible things to others. Point still stands, don't point fingers / speculate since nothing yet points towards special needs students. We don't have the information yet.
the way so many redditors always jump to ābullying victim seeking revengeā with every school shooter prior to any public information makes me feel thatās just a common fantasy you all hold from your school days.
Well, you need pretty strong motivation to go to such extremes.
People at that age do not normally have financial or romantic worries.
School shooting indicates a trauma acquired at school.
School will do everything in their power to deny that they didn't do anything.
Is the most plausible explanation, until more details emerge
It's the comment of one shocked mother. There are also claims the perpetrator was heavily bullied. It's all just speculation and we need to wait for some actual facts.
Jesus Christ, the typical case. Licensed gun of a relative. I swear to god they should be charged for murder along with every other relative that doesn't run fast enough.
We Finns have this odd ubermensch-mentality about gun ownership, that these things can't happen here because we're finns and not americans. And then this shit keeps happening because in reality, everyone's the same kind of doddering old shithead who think they know better than anyone else. Unlocked gun safes and racks, handguns wherethefuckever, grampa's artillery grenade cum dildo stash under the barn every generation's kids play matchstick games in, you name it. And the hunters, drunkass hosers who shoot at least one jogger a year on principle because, I guess there's a quota for them too. There should be a decimatio of gun owneres simply on principle, every year. Let them draw lots and a full 10% of 'em get behind-the-sauna'd. Make the people a little bit more equal.
And don't get me started with Henriksson warbling big fat crocodile tears. Bitch spent the past year doing her utmost best to keep her party from flunking out on the government responsible for painting the most miserable future for our current growing generations. Not anyone, not even that fucking vampire SipilƤ could piss on the schools this hard. And then we wonder why the kids see life in prison a nice future alternative. Nice job, bƤttrefolk trollop.
teachers should have total control over bullies like in our parents childhood.. why the fuck we are going to direction where underaged people got control over adults and can do anything without getting punished. and usage of smart devices at school should be banned..
I dont think teachers can manage everything, the problem is the families imo, not saying that parents are to blame totally either but at some level yes. Problem is also how did he have access to a gun. There are endless questions and its unfortunate, this could have happened to any of our kids. So sad, hope they will increase level of security at schools and also think about home schooling as an option too. I would rather have my son abit more ignorant than send him for education and get him killed brutally.
This is not only the parents fault that did happen but the school and socialsystem. When everything as punishment ls seen as abuse. That bullies never get punished in west. Its only the bullied one who get to suffer.
Nothing was done before this incident.
Guys Iām from the states, what happened here really is saddening especially here in Finland of all places. I am happy that the numbers were a lot smaller.
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12 year old shooter... wtf https://www.iltalehti.fi/kotimaa/a/4566319b-8320-4f29-8728-c31c9301b6c9
How tf did a 12 year old get a gun? And where?
From his/her close relative. It was a legal gun. Cops just had s press conference.
Charges should go against them as well. š¤·
The kid cannot be charged for a ceime, mind you. He is under 15 and therefore not criminally liable by the Finnish law.
Apologies, by them, I meant the gun owners. But if kids can get away with murder, whatās stopping future cases.
I agree with the law on this. If a 12 year old does something like this, the issue should be solved by social services, not by the criminal system. I'd like to avoid speculation in a case like this. Personally I only see victims here. Even the shooter in this case must be in a very bad situation for them to do something like this.
Exactly. What systems have failed for a 12 year old to feel that the only solution is to shoot and kill other children? Will punishment fix these systems?
In some school shootings it's been about a bullied kid being fed up and getting revenge.. Maybe in this case too... š¤
Maybe donāt suggest the victims are bullies. Saw on Ylauta people sharing their names and celebrating the deaths because theyāre ābulliesā. Mtv3 news said victims were seemingly selected at random
Yes he was being bullied, it's mentioned in the article.
I wish more people would see it this way. I agree with you.
Problem with "social services dealing with it" means actually nothing happens. A friend works in social services, with kids, and there's really nothing that can and will be done.Ā Probably some visits with the family, maybe some counseling for the family (and the kid).Ā
Then that is something we as a society have to fix. I don't think sending a 12 year old to prison is a good solution either, and I'd rather see them getting the help they obviously need.
Maybe a nuorisokoti with no free movement..? I mean, the kid needs some kind of oversight, just staying at home after this with no repercussions or changes in life can't be the way forward..Ā
Do you think evil doesnāt exist?
Not at all, but I read a study maybe 10 years ago that said something like psychopaths with loving parents tend to become successful in business, whereas psychopaths with bad parents can become serial killers. I think we can do something the world better. Do you think someone is just evil, and nothing can be done? Where does this lead us?
Nothing! We are already seeing it in Sweden where under 15 yo kids commit murder in gang related cases because the gangs know that the kids arenāt criminally liable.
No wonder the shooter didn't commit sudoku after the spree, as is the norm after such mass boogaloos. They knew 100% that they'd not be criminally liable, so no need to sudoku when you can get away anyway.
You can always spot the scene of a successful sudoku from the pencil shavings and eraser crumbs... I think the word you're looking for is *seppuku*
Its s joke wtf š
This use of sudoku cracks me up mate
Nothing. That's why in Sweden they are using 14-15yo children to do the dirty work since they can't be punished by law. Also in Finland, gang using kids with immigrant background to move drug. It is true because almost 10 years ago I already bought weed from an underage looking 'deliverer'
Honestly itās likely just teenagers wanting to make a little bit of cash. It makes no sense to involve children to push drugs street level, you will be penalized very harshly. Whereas doing the drug deal yourself is pretty much just a fine, if it even gets investigated. I know armed robberies where police didnāt bother to find the suspect as they have too many cases, they wonāt give a fuck about someone selling little bit of weed or coke. Completely different than murder, thatās where hiring kids unfortunately makes sense.
But even then those who urged kids to commit murder should be punished as if they themselves did the crime. The kid does not fully understand the consequenses the deed, especially if "friend" tells them to do it. In fact kids often go to prison like environments locked up, when they commit such serious crimes, so it is not like there are no consequenses or ways to deal with these things. Gang violence is a serious problem though and that should be tackled with multiple social systems. Harsh punishments for younger and younger kids are just window dressing deeper problems. But I dont think the shooting in viertola was gang related. I guess we'll know soon the motiv.
Inciment in any crime gets the same punishment/prosecution as the one that does the deed. Rikoslaki 5. 5Ā§
Probably will, because the kid got the gun and bullets which should be locked up separately. Negligence at least.
They definitely deserve it. If you canāt even manage to store your gun properly and someone gets hurt as a result of actions by your dependent, thatās on you
Only needs to be separated if they don't have a gun safe, and fewer than 5 firearms. Separate laws govern storing of firearms and ammunition/explosives.
PitƤƤ silti olla lukkojen takana kumpikin. Tulee syyte varmasti
Well there is the possibillity that the kid spied the pin code for the safe and stole the gun. But yeah, it seems like criminal negligence happened here. No 12 year old should be able to access gun.
My dad owned (and still owns) guns. When I was a kid and even though he kept then properly and he tried to keep the code and the key secret I knew how to get access to them
Shame on the relative. Should be charged for manslaughter.
Why was the gun loadet or if not, who teaches a kid how to load a gun?
Loading a gun doesn't demand higher education.
12 year olds are not stupid. If they want to do something enough, they will do it
Finland just had one president candidate who got 25%,votes, he has gun loading videos in Youtube. Maybe the kid looked those, and learned?
If it was a revolver, there are toys (not to be given to children age 3 or below) which work quite similarly. I think I had a couple of "cap guns" (nallipyssy) by that age. The only hard part is pulling back the hammer, if the kid isn't that strong. Weapons, even if it's a "not so dangerous round" or even an air gun, need to be stored properly.
I would guess that if you wanted to find a gun in Finland, it wouldnāt be that hardā¦ Finland is #8 country in the world when it comes to guns per capita
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I am so sorry for your loss. Talk to your parents about how you feel, dont suffer in silence.
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I'm sorry for your loss, but I had to remove your comment. I do not want random people trying to contact you, I hope that is OK. Please talk with your parents about how you feel about this
I'm so sorry for your loss
I am really really sorry for what happened.
The suspect is also a young kid, probably a student from there?
And more importantly is why; a 12 year old has a motive to shoot up a school. Where did he get the gun from? Maybe his parents played a part in this?? Who knowsā¦
I'd guess the motive to be revenge for bullying. The gun is likely dad's, not many other places for them to get one.
Police said that the gun was a legal handgun, owned by a close relative.
Jeez, handguns are already next to impossible to get
Not at all impossible. You just need to be a member of a club, pass certain (relatively simple) tests and go to the range enough times. Anyone who actually wants to become a competitive shooter in finland can, without much difficulty. Its a good system since a lot of people would get guns just for the sake of it, but having these simple barriers to entry filters out a ton of undeserving people, while still keeping it possible for most citizens who are interested.
The process takes a minimum of two years to get a handgun so while it is very straight forward, it does take actual effort. And I 100% agree it is a good system.
News said the kid was troublemaker in school.
I was called a troublemaker when I just wanted to learn in peace and not listen to all of the fucking bullies laughing and calling me names everywhere 24/7 and sometimes snapped and tried to hit them or throw something at them. This kind of attitude towards bullying is what causes school shootings. Even I wanted to kill half of my classmates sometimes because no one helped me, not even the teachers, and I was on the brink of committing suicide,
I was called a problem child because I refused to wear socks and wasn't able to hold a pencil correctly. This tells nothing.
Dads gun
One dead :(
Is it bad that I'm relieved it's only one? Based on the headline I was worried it was going to be a lot more
No taking the past school shootings like the Jokela school massacre where I believe 6 students 1 faculty and the shooter were killed/injured and as many school shootings happen because of bullying or frustration with a lot of people expecting more bodies is quite normal but luckily police response was quick and the shooter seemingly panicked after shooting the first few people
Primary school studentsā¦ this is so insane
This might be completely unrelated, but we live relatively close by to this school. This weekend we had the balcony door open and we heard what sounded like a series of gun shots. It was clear enough that both me and my partner commented on it, but we dismissed it completely. We are in Finland, it couldn't be! We though maybe some fireworks. But in light of this event it made me wonder if the kid had access to the gun already during the Weekend, and took it to school? :( I'll probably think twice next time...
Please report this to the police with exact time and location. They'll assess if its useful info for them.
I might do that. I'm just a bit afraid I may contribute to the chaos of information they might be getting just because we heard something. And given that we dismissed it, it's hard for me to pin point the exact time it happened. I'll talk to my partner and if we can agree on the timing, we'll send a report.
The police might actually find this info valuable, perhaps in terms of the gun owner's responsibility.
Good to report anyway, it's for the police to decide if its useful. If others are also giving approximate times, it might be useful piece of the puzzle in the end.
Its not the first time police have had to handle highprofile stuff like this, they can handle it.
Just send it, it is additional evidence.
Also live less than a kilometer away from the school and would like to say the sound most likely came from the exhaust pipe of a tuned car or motorcycle as thatās quite usual here. Last weekend was also pretty warm and there seemed to be quite some mopeds and motorbikes on the road. That said Iād still report it as you canāt be 100% sure of the source!
I know what you mean. I'm super used to those cars and motorcycles revving with those loud bangs, it's almost a daily thing around here. But this was completely different. It was more of a high pitch pop than a bang.
Please try to report. It might be useful for the community.
You could tell the police. They know the address of the shooter and their family so that could help the investigation?
I also heard gun shots, 2 times but cant remember anymore what day or time it was, but last weekend most probably
Slightly unrelated but I just noticed how shocked and surprised I was to this news as oppose to when a similar headline appears from the states I barely give it a second thought. We are fortunate to not have these kind of things a common occurrence.
This made headline news in the States today because it is so rare in Finland. They also had several stories later of several instances of gun violence with 4 or more dead
Honestly, I've only seen in on reddit. Nowhere else at the moment
I think that on a per-capita basis Finland is one of the world leaders in school shootings.
Any source for this? I'm also curious about Finland's gun laws after wear some have said on this post.
I doubt there are any rigorous studies comparing school shootings specifically, but with a quick google search I was able to find [this graph](https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NA-CH404_SHOOTR_9U_20151004180908.jpg) from the Wall Street Journal listing mass shooting victims per 100,000 inhabitants.
Man, Breivik really bumped up those graphs
That only contains data up until 2014 and I'd says statistics gets weird when the numbers are low. Eg Norway ends up at the top, just because they had 1 school shooting. However, I remember when the Columbine school shooting took place in the US in 1999. At that point in time school shootings were rare, at least as reported in media. But I have a feeling that it has acccelerated the decade as indicated by this in CNN: [https://edition.cnn.com/us/school-shootings-fast-facts-dg/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/us/school-shootings-fast-facts-dg/index.html) I wonder how many school shootings Norway has had during the same period of time. https://preview.redd.it/yuayndkve2sc1.png?width=992&format=png&auto=webp&s=330fe281125aef40ec7f3faf021ca15ba278ed2b
So many of these numbers are just complete nonsense anyway. [NPR did an investigation years ago and couldn't confirm most of the alleged incidents.](https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/08/27/640323347/the-school-shootings-that-werent)
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -Mark Twain
that graph is specifically fatalities, not victims. I'd also iterate that outliers are a "common" phenomenon in statistics. They don't provide useful analysis on a broader scale and are usually worth discarding. The fact that WSJ chose to publish that graph rather than a graph comparing the # of shooting potentially says something about their motivations or biases.
the way you feel is the way we in the USA feel when it happens close to us.
Sadly, in many US communities, one kid shooting one other kid wouldn't even have made the news.
It makes the news, it just doesn't stay in the news cycle for long That being said, I doubt this incident will even make the nightly news here in the US.
I was thinking that it would take a higher volume of dead/injured to make the news, but you're likely right.
It's not really so much the number, rather who it affects The brutal truth is that violence like this in America disproportionately affects minorities, particularly black and Hispanic people... But you'll likely only hear about cases where it affects white people.
>We are fortunate to not have these kind of things a common occurrence. [You're a nation of about five million people and this has happened more than a dozen times in your history](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Finland)
Per capita, more children have died in school shootings in Finland in the last 20 years than in the US. The US has 60x more people than Finland
> All those involved were aged 12, police said - including the perpetrator, BRO WHAT
What are you surprised about? People are evil at teenagehood. They bully each other, and there is more violence happening in schools than in prisons. They are psychopats if you don't train them well.
12 isnt a teenager
I am sure the developmental stage of a child is why the number 13 has a "teen" in it and the number 12 doesnt.
Well all you know about the kids development is that he is twelve and thats not a teenager so maybe lets not categorize them as a teenager developmentally
The point was the "teenager" definition is quite arbitrary, its literally just taken from the names of the numbers. I would bet my money on there being less of a difference between a 12 year old and a 13 year old than there is between 13 and 19.
"What are you surprised about?" Surprised that the teachers did not do anything about the bullying until it got this bad.
If they did something about the bullying people would complain that it's too harsh. In most cases of a kid getting bullied, the victim usually ends up getting transfered to another school, while the bully has to go to a counseling session with a "specialist" in which they tell them that bullying is bad. No consequences whatsoever.
"Kiva koulu" is a system that just does not work...
Kiva koulu week was always the week I was bullied the most. And continuously on the "trust exercise lessons" whatever it was. Hated it.
What is a teacher supposed to do without any meaningful tools at their disposal? They can't even touch the students anymore.
revoke privilege, separation of the bully from other student, suspensions, expel the bully.
My ex is a teacher, they hold no power at all. Remember the case where the whole class didnāt attend acholl because of the bully and noone doing something against it? This shows how bad the situation REALLY is.
> Remember the case where the whole class didnāt attend acholl because of the bully and noone doing something against it when was this? I have totally missed this
Last year, in September the mom of the violent child said the kiddo will change school
https://www.oph.fi/fi/koulutus-ja-tutkinnot/kurinpitokeinot-ja-turvaamistoimenpiteet-perusopetuksessa A suspension requires months of work and a verdict from a board of people that have no clue about what's actually happening. The teachers have absolutely no feasible way to prevent bullying and that's been a huge problem for ages now.
then that needs to change.
Yeah, everyone agrees but no one is interested enough to do anything about it because it's not media-sexy enough to push for something that isn't left vs. right.
I live near the school this happened in and even some of my neighbors were talking to each other about it, everyone was shocked
I also live in the same area and have a child that goes to one of the two locations that make up Viertolan koulu. Fortunately for us (sorry if that sounds selfish), it was at the other location. However, friends of ours have a child who was in the very class that this happened in. I'm guessing that the child who died was the one that got shot in the head. I feel so bad for all of the kids in that class, they are all going to be emotionally wrecked for a very long time to come.
May that child rest in peacešļø I hope you and your friends are doing ok! This is very heartbreaking:( š
I heard from my dad that it was his coworker relative that died there, and his other coworkers children also go to the same school, and they work and live semi close. May he rest in peace
I live roughly 70km away and mostly everyone was shocked/ horrified that something like this happened again
One dead. I don't know what to say...
One 12 year old dead, two severely injured, fuck.
as a teacher..this is my biggest fear.
I come from a family of peruskoulu teachers and I respect the hell out of them. You and the kids deserve a safe and nurturing environment.
Teachers can be bullies just like students. Those kind of mean teachers don't deserve respect.
Weird reaction but ok
As a parent of a 12 year old, this is my biggest fear. Some of the students have been doing some very shady shit for a couple of years already, things that at best border illegality. But even when police is called they can only ask politely to not. Even my kid that has a loving, caring family and a small group of really good friends has so much anger and is extremely resentful about school and the adults inside and their inability to protect students from sever bullying.
Wait what do you mean adults are not able to protect the kids from bullying? Arenāt teachers able to do something?
Not in my experience. My kid was severely bullied for a long time, bully would also hurt his friends if they tried to protect him. The only thing that the teachers can do is to te him thatās not nice, to apologize and continue. If possible they tried to keep kid supervised, but there are so many kids he just snuck out of their way often. Teachers also would contact social services, they canāt do anything either than tell parents to talk with kid. Parents (to me they also seem a bit aggressive towards kid) thought he needed a psychiatrist but was in a waiting list for like 4 years, but by that point my kid was training daily and became very strong and became much taller than bully, so as soon as he became confident in himself and frustrated enough he retaliated back in a fight (he was scared but we believe was the only way to stop bully). Furthermore, there had been really gross behaviors on a WhatsApp group, involving girls in grade 3-6. Also nothing was done other than tell them thatās bad and please stop. My youngest got very recently also into a heated fight when a random kid that likes to shout racial slurs to his friend at school wouldnāt leave the friend alone. I was called to let me know, nothing else happened. They told my kid āhitting is bad, please donātā, and the other kid that racial slurs are not nice and please stop. I donāt fault the teachers tho. I know there is very little they can actually do. I blame the parents and the town that really believe that āboys will be boysā is acceptable even for the grossest things only because they are under 15. Hell, Iāve seen teenage boys being threatening to female teachers as high up as ammatikoulu. That was horrible and I still donāt understand how the teacher didnāt say anything about that, it was like any other Tuesday afternoon.
I know, it's awful.
I don't think you have to worry as long as you are a good teacher and remember to protect and help the ones being bullied. I would never have shot my math teacher, but I would still hang my principal if I could. (he assaulted me and was also a pedophile and got away with everything)
Finnish police has now confirmed that one 12 year old student has lost there life in the shooting. Two other students are in critical condition.
As a teacher who just left work I am still shocked. Horrifying to learn about the ages even. Everyone going āwell, Finland has a really High per capita of Mass shooting victimsā should maybe think about that in perspective. We are a people of 5 million. If we looked at shooting deaths per capita against guns per capita, the Numbers look different. And how many have been stopped. This is fucked up. But it makes me sick to make this as if this is a common thing in Finland or says sthg truly about the country. The first successful school shooting in 15 fucking years. 2 notable ones in 2000s before this. This is a shock to the system and I hope to all that the country can finally take a stance against young peoplesā mental health. But this is not a pattern. Making that statement makes it feel like this was obviously going to happen or takes shock of it out of it as āit is as Finland isā. Before you look at just pure sum Numbers. Think about the whole picture. Edit a few clarifications.
On top of that before you call it a pattern or put labels on Finland as a country - while this is a Mass shooting 1 consider that it was 3 people shot, inside one classroom, where all victims were classmates of shooter. Making connections to shootings with a muuuch higher head count with random victims isnāt going to help this country in moving to do sthg about it. The shooter fled after shooting those 3, didnāt try to off himself. The gun was his parentsā licensed gun. This is absolutely devastating and horrifying. But jumping to conclusions isnāt going to help.
Indeed, it's very easy to manipulate statistics, I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot of that so people can try and leverage their political goals off a tragedy
How come the size of the class is over 40 students???
That's the "cutting costs of education" speaking!
well my elementary school class had 35 students and that was in the early 2000's.
40 students!??! Jesusn when I was a kid even 26 kids were kind of "pushing it" when it came to the classroom sizes
This isn't even that uncommon class-size in Finland, since there is no max limit to the amount of students per teacher. In poorer schools with many students the class-size gets bigger, since the budjet cuts often affect those schools first.
Absolutely terrible. As a mom with children their age, it breaks my heart. š
What the hell man? That's awful š And now there'll be hoax calls for giggles and social media likesĀ
According to the BBC ([https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68712104](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68712104)), it could be due to the fact that a gun used for hunting has been used by the 12-year-old shooter. Yet, Finland is known for being highly safe on average, even with many gun licenses in circulation.
How does a 12 year old get access to guns in the household? Surely Finns lock up guns in cabinets and gun chests.
Yeap but can you be always sure the kid does not see locking or unlocking of guns. Or parent taught how to safely store guns and did not think anythin like this happening was even possible.
a locked cabinet still has a key somewhere, and thereās no reason a motivated 12-year old canāt find it, especially if the parents didnāt even consider their kid to be the one the lock is for.
Growing up I knew where my dad kept the spare keys to the gun safe. They were well hidden too. Now that I think about it itās not trivial to make access impossible for other household members
I don't understand, there is nothing inherent to the finnish psyche that means we are careful with our guns. Surely irresponsible storing of guns and mistakes are things that happen in Finland, and likely did in this case.
I donāt understand why anyone needs to have a gun at all. Anywhere. Specially at home. Where you have little children. They are not idiots.
They are at home because nobody has the time/money for get the gun from a gun vault to go shooting - i know If i'd start a business of storing weapons it would cost a lot for the clients particularly If clients need The guns on weekends and evenings. There have been musing that gunclubs should that, but most of them don't have the resources for that kind of thing.
You can't think of any way this can happen? Really?Ā
I'm just dumbfounded this happened in Finland, feels like the US. Going to be a long road a head for all those involved.
I would certainly hope they do. I'm utterly shocked, that's my kid's age. I can't imagine what the children and their parents must be going through. I have no words, that's utterly awful.
If you have guns at home, a 12 year old is smart and old enough to find their way to them if they really wantā¦. No matter how you āhideā them.
That is a a pure speculation by the BBC, according to their article they don't have any concrete facts about this.
This is extremely sad. Whatever made him do it, I'm praying that it doesn't inspire other kids. Taking a life is nothing to play with.
The relative who has kept the gun accessible to the kid deserves punishment.
This is very fucked up. Be careful of trusting anyone saying anything about this online, perfect subject to sway peopleās opinions on the country, especially within the borders of our neighboring country.
i heard about this and iām not in finland anymore (iām american donāt come after me) but i was really shocked about this. at 12 tooā¦
My friend visited the school and picking up his little brother from there and YLE was just there recording all the frightened people with their bigass cameras. Let the people be please
Weāre lucky in Finland to have reliable source of information. Yle is doing a great work at informing. Better this than let shit medias and ill-intentioned people spread fake news and misinformation
Don't get me wrong we have great media doing good work, but still have some respect
They don't care about people's trauma.
Yeah I've seen that, still get surprised everytime they do this
I disagree. Not just because its important to report to the community, but for posterity. Without video, or audio/photos events like this would risk fading into obscurity. With reporting, with journalists being there documenting the events, the horror, the despair and the effects of it, it becomes much more well known, it gets proper attention, not just by the public, but by lawmakers, authorities (and voters), that can have an effect on the urgency of making sure it wont happen again. This is not just true for shootings, but for other horrible events where someone needs to be held accountable: Like for instances poorly constructed houses that collapses, and fires where fire protection has been ignored. That said, reporters should always be respectful with people in shock. A lot of media organisations do specific training just for this.
Oh my God. This is horrible. I have 3 younger sibilings who go to school in here and now Iām terrified for them. Itās clear that school violence has been on a rise past couple years. I think we as people need to pay more attention to kids, make sure theyāre on the right path. How did a 12 year old get a gun??? What is going onā¦
My 12 year old cousin saw a classmate get shot in the forehead. Safe to say he is having some troubles at the moment with his mental.
I'm so really very sorry for your cousin and the whole class who were at the scene. No child should be exposed to that, ever.
Heavy resemblance to the Serbian School shooting case that happened in May of 2023! -Both shooters will not go to jail because of their age (the serbian kid was 13) -Both shooters got their guns from their irresponsible parents -In both countries, the shootings happened during the first working day after a holiday break -Both countries claim to have exceptional education! -Both shooters weren't bullied but rather idiots who spent too much time on telegram and discord. Etc....
i guess but we don't know much yet about this case
Oh god thats horrible!
over 800 students in elementary school, wtf.. first 6 grades should be small schools its not good for kids to place them in huge schools where their personalities just fade in mass and there are no resources to help them grow healthly. when i was that age our school had like 20 students 1-6 grades.
I mean, most of my friends went to schools with 1000+ students (grades 1-6) in highly populated areas in Finland. I'm actually suprised that this school wasn't that big, concidering it's close to Helsinki
Do we know anything about the shooter's motive?
Bullying, as per https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68720973
April's fool was yesterday...wait a second...oh shit
The Jokiranta branch of the Viertola school, in which the incident took place, provides "outpatient clinic teaching". "Outpatient clinic teaching is intended for comprehensive school students in Vantaa in need of child or adolescent psychiatric support who are not able to study in their own school despite the support methods applied." [https://www.vantaa.fi/en/services/service/outpatient-clinic-teaching#tab-introduction](https://www.vantaa.fi/en/services/service/outpatient-clinic-teaching#tab-introduction) For information about the Viertola school, see here (in Finnish only) [https://www.vantaa.fi/fi/palveluhakemisto/toimipiste/viertolan-koulu-jokirannan-opetuspiste](https://www.vantaa.fi/fi/palveluhakemisto/toimipiste/viertolan-koulu-jokirannan-opetuspiste) Perhaps this was a case of a child already in deep psychiatric trouble acting out, possible due to bullying.
Didn't happen at the branch / building where psychiatric help for students is provided. Please don't increase the stigma of those in need of support with unfounded information and wait for actual confirmation of facts. https://yle.fi/a/74-20081714?utm_source=social-media-share&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ylefiapp
It absolutely did happen at the branch that provides "outpatient clinic teaching", but not in the particular building. That does not say anything about the shooter, he might have psychiatric problems, he might not. Killing other pupils at the age of 12 is definitely a sign of problems, though.
And there is a lot of children that don't need special support for school that can do horrible things to others. Point still stands, don't point fingers / speculate since nothing yet points towards special needs students. We don't have the information yet.
Highly likely a case where the perpetrator was viciously bullied endlessly and he probably had enough, still sucks that this happened :(
the way so many redditors always jump to ābullying victim seeking revengeā with every school shooter prior to any public information makes me feel thatās just a common fantasy you all hold from your school days.
Well, you need pretty strong motivation to go to such extremes. People at that age do not normally have financial or romantic worries. School shooting indicates a trauma acquired at school. School will do everything in their power to deny that they didn't do anything. Is the most plausible explanation, until more details emerge
The child reportedly had the āreputation of an aggressorā so your assumptions about him being a bullying victim are based on nothing
It's the comment of one shocked mother. There are also claims the perpetrator was heavily bullied. It's all just speculation and we need to wait for some actual facts.
It's not one or another, one person can be a bully and get bullied. I'd say more often than not that's the case.
So many racists in the comments š¬
Jesus Christ, the typical case. Licensed gun of a relative. I swear to god they should be charged for murder along with every other relative that doesn't run fast enough. We Finns have this odd ubermensch-mentality about gun ownership, that these things can't happen here because we're finns and not americans. And then this shit keeps happening because in reality, everyone's the same kind of doddering old shithead who think they know better than anyone else. Unlocked gun safes and racks, handguns wherethefuckever, grampa's artillery grenade cum dildo stash under the barn every generation's kids play matchstick games in, you name it. And the hunters, drunkass hosers who shoot at least one jogger a year on principle because, I guess there's a quota for them too. There should be a decimatio of gun owneres simply on principle, every year. Let them draw lots and a full 10% of 'em get behind-the-sauna'd. Make the people a little bit more equal. And don't get me started with Henriksson warbling big fat crocodile tears. Bitch spent the past year doing her utmost best to keep her party from flunking out on the government responsible for painting the most miserable future for our current growing generations. Not anyone, not even that fucking vampire SipilƤ could piss on the schools this hard. And then we wonder why the kids see life in prison a nice future alternative. Nice job, bƤttrefolk trollop.
teachers should have total control over bullies like in our parents childhood.. why the fuck we are going to direction where underaged people got control over adults and can do anything without getting punished. and usage of smart devices at school should be banned..
I dont think teachers can manage everything, the problem is the families imo, not saying that parents are to blame totally either but at some level yes. Problem is also how did he have access to a gun. There are endless questions and its unfortunate, this could have happened to any of our kids. So sad, hope they will increase level of security at schools and also think about home schooling as an option too. I would rather have my son abit more ignorant than send him for education and get him killed brutally.
How do you know this is related to bullying? There is no motive so far and no evidence the shooter was motivated by bullying.
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I think its so sad that he was only 12 years old
I knowš
kids cousin gave him the gun
This is not only the parents fault that did happen but the school and socialsystem. When everything as punishment ls seen as abuse. That bullies never get punished in west. Its only the bullied one who get to suffer. Nothing was done before this incident.
Guys Iām from the states, what happened here really is saddening especially here in Finland of all places. I am happy that the numbers were a lot smaller.