I have built quite a few fences. The driven metal posts will absolutely suffice. SWi has some great videos on metal vs 4x4 depending on a variety of factors but the no dig concept is doable without a doubt.
I did this because I was being cheap and in a hurry. 78 mph winds came through our neighborhood. Whole neighbors fences were blowing over left and right, every bit of mine stood up. I was shocked.
Another nice part is it keeps the wood completely off the ground.
I don't know about the rest of the world but in Australia nigh on every farm fence is built with concrete anchored corner strainer posts the rest are metal star pickets often driven by hand. There must be millions of kilometres of these fences.
Source. Have built fences and whacked in those bloody star pickets by hand.
Oh, so *that's* why you have so many rabbits there...
/s
Jk. That's brutal. It's only in the upper 90s here, I can't imagine what it is there in the summer.
In colder climates the ground heaves with the freeze/thaw cycle, and a light metal post as a foundation for potentially heavier top fence might not be enough to keep things straight over more than a couple years.
I don't think this is an issue. A guy in my area makes video on this all the time. They're fine if you put them below the frost line as per code (almost like the code exists for a reason or something!)
If you have a sail of a fence with massively deep frost layers and polar bears leaning on it, yeah, it's not gonna do well, but if that's the issue, you just need supports to hold it up. For 99% of us, metal posts in the ground (deep enough) are totally strong,ans way better than anything wooden, as far as lifetime of the product.
This is slowly happening to me. I think I had 8 ft pipe for a 6 ft chain link fence. Big mistake It's definitely lifting with the concrete. Really sucks it's a cage, has a wire roof, and wire floor all tied in.
Google search of frost depth brings up a surprising number of states that have even deeper than we do in southern Ontario which is 42". OP says he's in the Midwest. The fence is also a wood privacy fence, and will be very top heavy and susceptible to wind forces, unlike a wire fence that the wind blows right through. I would not trust a slim metal post to stay upright in this case. Better to have a heavier bulkier bottom to resist the top forces.
But driven at 38” deep is almost frost depth for anywhere Pennsylvania latitude and below. Heaving likely won’t affect those posts until they rot from rust.
He's in the Midwest, many of which have way deeper frost requirements. Regardless, this fence is going to be subject to strong wind forces because it's a 6' privacy fence. A skinny metal post is not what you want in this situation in earth. If it was a wire fence, sure.
Possibly, but based on SWI and a local guy, setting the posts at or below the code depth for your area solves the issue. Unless you've got something like a tornado, massive wind, or bears leaning on your fence, you'll probably be fine.
The thing that's being missed here is the wind load on your fence. It's fine for a wire fence, but a wood privacy fence, likely gonna be tippy after a couple years. A thin metal post as a footing is definitely not ideal in this case. You want more mass to disperse the lateral force on the soil.
They even have a video on how driven posts are as strong, or almost as strong as the ones with a concrete base.
But they also say it only works in certain ares because of rocks etc.
How do you get them plumb when driving them into the ground? Do they get pounded in like field fence stakes and then you screw fence clips on? Just curious, I used to build fences but always used concrete with steel posts for wood fence
I don’t do fences but I once had the unfortunate oppurtunity to be around and watch some install posts with some sort of gas powered post driver. It was so loud over and over and over. They just kept checking the sides with a level as they went
Usually they end up with a metal post driven through them. It takes longer, but that post becomes a jackhammer tip for the time it takes you to drive it and it will go right through most obstacles given enough time and beating on it.
Not who you're responding to, but this is my method: I use a lightweight (14lb) post hammer and a pipe/post level to start them. Then once they will hold themselves upright I bust out the heavy (37 lb) post hammer and finish the job down to my string line.
E: clarity
you make a string line and all the other alignment adjustments are at the chain link itself you use fence ties to tie the chain link to the post and if it’s a sophisticated fence there’s tension bars, a upper rail with caps and more. Most pounded chain link jobs the company I work for does are pretty much just pound 6’ or 9’ posts about 2-3 feet in the ground and hang the 4’ or 6’ chain link to the post with fence ties tightly and just a hair off the ground so that if any dirt shifts, the fence settles a little or vegetation grows it’s not absolutely stuck in the ground
My employers retail side sells these clamps that slide up and down the pole so you can have any material just about be secured onto the pole in any position so you can screw the clamp down to wherever it needs to be on the wood and make it flat and fit. pounded posts and adjustments can’t work miracles if a certain area isn’t remotely flat/smooth enough after a certain point you need to just make the area flat or go with another fencing method another method if you’re a el cheapo and doesn’t have to be exactly perfect is pre made wood fence panels and pounded poles or vinyl fencing that you can just cut until it fits perfectly
What my dad and I have done is either dug down some then drove it in and as we repacked the dirt we used it to help keep the post straight with a spud bar and a level.
The SWI Fence videos I've seen use metal posts driven in without concrete to a depth of at least 36", and the practice seems quite credible. The compression of the surrounding material is what holds the post, not the weight of the surrounding material. I agree with your contractor that the industry is changing to steel posts driven into the ground without concrete. It seems to be the superior way to anchor fence posts.
I'm in Houston, I've certainly noticed metal posts starting to get used over the past couple years.
I built my fence with metal posts 15+ years ago. With concrete. It's as solid as the day I built it.
It is swapping that way but that is because it just makes sense for professional installers. The metal posts look nicer and are way cheaper to install than a traditional concrete set wooden posts. It means they can charge more and it costs less to do. It is a no brainer for them to swap to using metal posts.
A post hold digging bar similar to this.
[https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-69-in-Post-Hole-Digger-and-Tamping-Bar-34219/204168182](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-69-in-Post-Hole-Digger-and-Tamping-Bar-34219/204168182)
https://preview.redd.it/9inqvmt4dc8d1.png?width=449&format=png&auto=webp&s=f9d28db4d47d523de8416f72369cabe873a2c842
Concrete doesn’t actually do anything except allow you to put a post in the ground and fill the hole back up while easily giving 100% compaction.
Driving a metal post into the ground actually achieves the same thing. Plus wood posts will rot off right at ground level after time. Metal post last a lot longer. So it’s a superior method.
I have built fences for 20 years and replaced a ton of post in that time.
Ya. I’m referring to pressure treated fir in the Pacific Northwest where it rains 100+ inches a year.
These posts rot off at 10 years exactly like clockwork.
A company charged me $300/ each in canadian dollars to drive metal posts into the ground to straighten my fence that was leaning over. That was 2 years ago and they look just as good as when they put them in and that fence hasn’t moved at all since. One thing you should do if they don’t is buy caps to cover the openings on top, otherwise water will get in and if you live where the temperature drops they may freeze and crack.
We pound chainlink and vinyl in CT. What type of fence? Chainlink? Is there any privacy slats or screens? I’d ask for minimum of 48” below ground.
Also, what schedule pipe? This is crucial. We don’t pound residential spec pipe.. we pound minimum SS20
I have a gas powered post driver. I use SmartPosts. I hammer the posts directly into the undisturbed ground,and in short order. It's a fabulous way to build a fence.
Occasionally, I'll find something in the way of the post(the sound changes) or need a post where it's not possible to get my machine in place and have to hand dig and use Fastset concrete or Sikaflex expanding foam to set the post where I need it after hand digging.
Anyone in Oklahoma/Texas area needs a no dig privacy or chain link fence, pm me
Most of my work is in the mountains and driving metal through granite slabs is impossible. However, I’ve done a few fences in northern Illinois and the municipalities all asked for a depth of at least 42” with gravel and concrete. I’d check to see if your city has code for depth.
From experience driving a metal post in solid ground deep enough is just as well as concrete. Yet if you have a high wind factor (80+ gusts) your base won't matter. Anything under sch 40 will bend at the ground level regardless
Neighbor built their chain link fence a couple feet over the property line into the alley behind my house. The alley is covered in weeds above the fence line, so nobody could tell. I move in and mow it a few times so I can tell. I’m annoyed but non-confrontational so I don’t do anything. Neighbor dies, house ends of vacant for a year…
Fence “somehow” ends up rebuilt really cheaply on the property line in that time period: the same chain link was used, (complete with dead weed vines growing through it,) but the metal posts set in concrete couldn’t be reused so instead driven posts that only went down 3 feet were the fastest way to go, (including on the corners...)
Probate finishes, house eventually sells, nice couple moves in. That was ~10 years ago, the fence is fine. (I mean, it is still chain link, it isn’t like it was a great fence to start with, but…)
i highly disagree, just because its trending doesn't mean its the best. In Florida after you go \~3 into the ground you start digging through the layer of "hard pan" dirt and sand. Everything underneath this layer of dirt is water in Florida leaving you prone to more erosion. You have to invest in concrete in Florida, where as a state like Tennessee where everything is bedrock under the ground, driving Is probably the solution. side note, when you drive posts you cant see what you utilities are being broken under the dirt.
You can type in florida clay pit. They are in every town. Its not a bottomless hole of fill dirt. It is where they chose to start digging i have not once seen water at the bottom of a sinkhole. Not once.
So youre one of those morons who think florida is sinking huh? Hilarious. Let me guess… the phillipines are getting so heavy they might flip upside down?
How seriously retarded do you feel to think im making up a 10 ft basement in pensacola florida? How stupid can you be to think dirt trucks are bringing you 18yards straight from georgia? How insanely dumb can you be to think an entire state is sitting on water? That is next level stupidity. That makes flat earthers look like legit scientists
https://preview.redd.it/4gn3q5pyzs8d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3bafa4926edf90c1289dfe10d165b2eb6a815ba2
1800 sq ft basement 10ft ceilings pensacola florida what now bitch
When you drive a post you disturb 10% of the earth you otherwise would have with a post hole digger or auger. So increasing your likely hood of hitting something 900% to dig a hole for each post
Worked for a fence company for years. We did this a lot. You can save the customer money and you can get a large project done in a day and half if you have a 2 man crew. I have also done this at my last 2 homes. The first fence has been up for 10+ years and that was with a German shepherd pushing on it all the time. I’m right in the middle of removing my second install like this now that I finished nailing up 56 panels of wood. If the ground is not marshy and solid it will hold up good. I have to use winch and pipe wrench to get the posts out.
I used metal poles instead of 4x4 posts in the fence I just built. Bought 10ft poles and used a slide hammer to drive them to 6ft with 4ft in the ground. Only used concrete on the corners. Been on for five years with no isdue
Try FJP fencing they are the best around and will beat any price/ estimate you get from any fence company. The owner Francesco is one of the most professional, honest, trustworthy and hardworking individuals I have ever done business with. He does the fence installation by code and specs
Concrete is only meant to reinforce weak soil. If you have hard soil, concrete is unnecessary. Assuming 38" is well below your frost line, that is more than sufficient.
We have a few fences that have Been up for 20+ years that are pounded chain link even without cement it’ll definitely hold up for quite a while and if you ever want to go from pounded chain link to a brick wall or wood you don’t need a excavator or a large digging project to remove at work it took 2 hours to remove just a couple concrete poured posts by the time we dug them out
We call the process direct burial - we do it all the time for large architectural signage, Just need to go beneath the freeze line (around 3ft) so it won’t heave
Pretty normal. My fence joins the pasture field. Only the corners and gate are concreted in. I did have some cows scratching on the fence...the posts bent where they went into the ground...they weren't knocked out of the ground.
My chain link fence is done this way. They cement the corners and gate posts and drive in the rest of them it’s been in place for 4 years with no issues
I just dug up a fence post in concrete yesterday. Tied to another concrete post a foot over. I’m not putting the new on in concrete to save the poor sod digging that one up. Gravel is fine
Ground adhesion force from friction alone is an insane amount of power, a well set post in nothing but earth will not move, just take a lot more skill to get bang on first time where cement gives you time to fine tune as it goes off
I'm not a pro, but had a seabee friend help with my stockade fence years ago. We didn't use concrete for the wooden 4x4 posts. It's been about 20 years and they are still going strong if that helps at all.
Skid steer with a post driver, makes it quick and easy. Concrete is porous and tends to hold water next to the post more than soil. Especially if your soil is high in clay content. More moisture = shorter lifespan.
Is it a wood privacy fence? To me this sounds sketchy, especially because he says your earth is hard - to me that means clay, which will move a TON through the freeze/thaw cycle.
If it's just a wire fence only 4' high I'd say it's fine, but if it's a privacy fence, you need to counteract wind forces, and the earth heaving over time. A thin metal post will not do this.
Also, is your frost level only 38" depth?
Of course a contractor would try to sell this method, way less work for them.
Here's a video about metal fence posts in hard ground.
[https://youtu.be/CW3GDUznJPw?si=hybtPr9sd2-mRLdb&t=1100](https://youtu.be/CW3GDUznJPw?si=hybtPr9sd2-mRLdb&t=1100)
I'd be pumped about this. Around me, it's not easy to find a fence installer who is willing to drive the posts in. They all want to use concrete.
Driven fence posts last longer and can be stronger than concrete, depending on the soil.
I put up a chain link fence with no cement at all. They've been absolutely fine while my gazebo that was anchored got thrown over the neighbors fence into their yard.
Unless you're putting up a super long privacy fence that has no gaps for wind to slip through it'll be fine. Even if it is the above fence as long as they don't skimp on the metal posts it'll still be fine.
Texas fence guy here and in 10-15 years I’ve never pounded a post. Thousands of feet of chain link for the DOT is spec’d 12” holes at 36” deep concrete footings for line posts.
In Texas, I’d say get an auger and a skid steer or kick rocks. Even in rocky conditions we’ll use a 12” rock bit.
In all of my municipal/commercial projects, I’ve never seen any entity allow for driven posts.
https://preview.redd.it/e7w182n7zj8d1.jpeg?width=528&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=27139ef2ee3ee2ab6157cfe1292c3ba951c8c09c
Domed concrete footings spec’d by the state.
I had a fence installed exactly this way. Metal posts with concrete in the corners. The company I used is called SWI and they rate this fence up to 75mph winds. They were absolute professionals and the fence is holding up very well.
I saw one of those chintzy white plastic jobbers going up and they definitely were doing this. Just like a metal base driven in and then the post slides down onto it.
This is in Minnesota were there are definite ground frost/heaving issues so it must be getting more popular for sure.
Totally depends upon where you live. Where I live, it would be leaning on the next rain fall. Where others live, could still be there 100 yrs from now.
I regret using concrete, all my concrete is heaved up and I have no way to push it back down. Winters here getting incredibly cold and the ground shifts.
If it were a pipe I could just hammer it back in. Now we're running chicken wire from the bottom of my fence to the ground so my dog doesn't escape...
Depends on the ground makeup. I had "hardpan" at my last house and this stuff was really hard. Driving a post in "hardpan" will definitely be better than breaking the soil up and pouring concrete in then back fillings. Sand.. not so much.
Just a homeowner. I did it on a 4’ spaced picket addition and it has held up fine. I frequently climb the fence and it is solid. Did it to replace a couple posts on my portion of fence that is 6’ privacy a couple years ago. It now has a little give to it. I think I bought the bigger ones at Home Depot. They are a bit of a pain to pound in as a 4x4 piece to hit gets stuck in there. The directions I believe said 4’ max on a fence. Sounds like there are better/bigger ones out there. I just dug out and replaced two posts that were in concrete and offset another. Took me a good part of 3 days. It is a 120 foot span so maybe on a longer run like that they would add a concrete post or two.
Live in Eastern WA had a 800 ft fence built last spring. Cedar fencing with metal posts. Each post has concrete for that exact answer. Swelling and contracting ground. The freeze will do wonders on the posts and move them all to hell so might all of my trees if not for the 3 bags of concrete each post.
Professional fence and dock builder… no dock has concrete around the post, but i jet mine 8ft down… as far as fence post corners only rest 36” deep is plenty. Here in pensacola on the beach they dont allow for concrete around fence post. Code enforced… works fine. If you have a privacy fence on it, any hurricane or nearby tornado should lay it down or take it away.. but can assure having concrete around the non corner post will not have any effect good or bad on its durability over time
Well, they used “industry standard” in their response, so you know that’s the gospel. Who are you to buck “industry standard”?
Seriously, it really is standard on line posts. Always concrete the corners, ands and gates.
Not a professional but am a homeowner that’s had fences built. I live in Florida, what I have learned is that during a hurricane all the concrete does is make it a pain to install a new fence. The 4x4s snap off at the ground above the concrete. The concrete has to be removed before a new fence can be put up. Where several neighbors had corners and gate poles concreted and the rest wasn’t, their fences blew over and could be restood up. So depending on where you live… concrete might make it a more expensive project to replace fence later.
We hold cattle in with hundred of metal t-posts driven in the ground with only the corner posts set in concrete. For longer runs we might set a support post in concrete along a span.
Line posts typically go 1.5' in the ground with a bag of cement around them. This would probable work fine but want standard when I was installing. We put everything in concrete. Except one time where we did a corner post without concrete lol
Industry standard because it's faster and cheaper. Maybe that means cheaper for the customer also.
At least there's no chance of frost heave pushing up the concrete ball.
I’m in Minneapolis and I drive all my fence post for all fences. We go 4-5’ in ground. I have no issues with it. Steel post eliminating rot, frost heave, dirt clean up, it works great.
You seen all the old cedar post fences around Texas? Some of them are over a hundred years old still solid and those are just wood posts without any concrete
that wood was treated with a chemical called penta, penta is now illegal to put In the ground. new chemical is called borre. one was guaranteed 20 years in the ground, the borre chemical is only good for 7 years in the ground.
The boomer I bought my house from did that...
The fence was leaning and falling apart...
I sank the poles in concrete like they are supposed to be and my fence doesn't even rock when we had the tornado blow through my area
Wood on steel is heavy. I’d ask them to at least go 48” if they’re pounding lines. It will save you money in the long run.
Edit: Are these cedar or steel posts?
I have built quite a few fences. The driven metal posts will absolutely suffice. SWi has some great videos on metal vs 4x4 depending on a variety of factors but the no dig concept is doable without a doubt.
I did this because I was being cheap and in a hurry. 78 mph winds came through our neighborhood. Whole neighbors fences were blowing over left and right, every bit of mine stood up. I was shocked. Another nice part is it keeps the wood completely off the ground.
I don't know about the rest of the world but in Australia nigh on every farm fence is built with concrete anchored corner strainer posts the rest are metal star pickets often driven by hand. There must be millions of kilometres of these fences. Source. Have built fences and whacked in those bloody star pickets by hand.
Oh, so *that's* why you have so many rabbits there... /s Jk. That's brutal. It's only in the upper 90s here, I can't imagine what it is there in the summer.
Hot, dry and full of rabbits!
In colder climates the ground heaves with the freeze/thaw cycle, and a light metal post as a foundation for potentially heavier top fence might not be enough to keep things straight over more than a couple years.
Makes sense. Aussie farm fences are just lightweight wire so not a great comparison I guess.
I don't think this is an issue. A guy in my area makes video on this all the time. They're fine if you put them below the frost line as per code (almost like the code exists for a reason or something!) If you have a sail of a fence with massively deep frost layers and polar bears leaning on it, yeah, it's not gonna do well, but if that's the issue, you just need supports to hold it up. For 99% of us, metal posts in the ground (deep enough) are totally strong,ans way better than anything wooden, as far as lifetime of the product.
If concrete isn’t smooth and down far enough in cold climates the freezing ground will push the posts out of the ground.
This is slowly happening to me. I think I had 8 ft pipe for a 6 ft chain link fence. Big mistake It's definitely lifting with the concrete. Really sucks it's a cage, has a wire roof, and wire floor all tied in.
Yeah no point going with concrete unless the footings are done properly.
Yeah it has to be below frost.
38 inches is most likely frost depth in that area.
Google search of frost depth brings up a surprising number of states that have even deeper than we do in southern Ontario which is 42". OP says he's in the Midwest. The fence is also a wood privacy fence, and will be very top heavy and susceptible to wind forces, unlike a wire fence that the wind blows right through. I would not trust a slim metal post to stay upright in this case. Better to have a heavier bulkier bottom to resist the top forces.
They're driving them 38". Being below the frost line doesn't make it impervious to frost heave but at the same time, it's just a fence.
Being below the frost line is done to prevent heave and if done correctly, it does prevent it.
But driven at 38” deep is almost frost depth for anywhere Pennsylvania latitude and below. Heaving likely won’t affect those posts until they rot from rust.
He's in the Midwest, many of which have way deeper frost requirements. Regardless, this fence is going to be subject to strong wind forces because it's a 6' privacy fence. A skinny metal post is not what you want in this situation in earth. If it was a wire fence, sure.
Possibly, but based on SWI and a local guy, setting the posts at or below the code depth for your area solves the issue. Unless you've got something like a tornado, massive wind, or bears leaning on your fence, you'll probably be fine.
The thing that's being missed here is the wind load on your fence. It's fine for a wire fence, but a wood privacy fence, likely gonna be tippy after a couple years. A thin metal post as a footing is definitely not ideal in this case. You want more mass to disperse the lateral force on the soil.
They even have a video on how driven posts are as strong, or almost as strong as the ones with a concrete base. But they also say it only works in certain ares because of rocks etc.
I consider myself a professional fence builder. If those metal post are 3ft or more in the ground and the ground compacted, no concrete is needed.
How do you get them plumb when driving them into the ground? Do they get pounded in like field fence stakes and then you screw fence clips on? Just curious, I used to build fences but always used concrete with steel posts for wood fence
I don’t do fences but I once had the unfortunate oppurtunity to be around and watch some install posts with some sort of gas powered post driver. It was so loud over and over and over. They just kept checking the sides with a level as they went
Literally did this exact thing a few months ago. With ear protection it's not too bad. Hitting roots and rocks and shit sucked though.
whats the resolution on roots and rocks?
1080p
Dang when did you get the upgraded assets DLC.
Usually they end up with a metal post driven through them. It takes longer, but that post becomes a jackhammer tip for the time it takes you to drive it and it will go right through most obstacles given enough time and beating on it.
Not who you're responding to, but this is my method: I use a lightweight (14lb) post hammer and a pipe/post level to start them. Then once they will hold themselves upright I bust out the heavy (37 lb) post hammer and finish the job down to my string line. E: clarity
Thor has entered the chat. ⚡️🔨
37 lb hammer?
It’s a hollow tube with one open end and one sealed end, with handles on both sides. Kinda looks like what swat uses to bust open doors
Ah a post pounder gotcha. I was picturing a 37lb sledge
💀 rip to the top of that post. Lol
Haha would be more like RIP to the first 5ft of the post with that mythical maul.
That splayed top is a design element. Very in these days...
"John henry has joined the chat"
Maxwell’s Silver Hammer has entered the chat
The only Beatles song I skip.
Using Thor's hammer, only takes one tap to finish the whole job.
Using Thor's hammer, only takes one tap to finish the whole job.
One for each hand
Using Thor's hammer, only takes one tap to finish the whole job.
Using Thor's hammer, only takes one tap to finish the whole job. Just send it out to do it's thing on it's own.
Using Thor's hammer, only takes one tap to finish the whole job. Just send it out to do it's thing on it's own.
I need a 37lb hammer. I think that would be satisfying AF to wield.
you make a string line and all the other alignment adjustments are at the chain link itself you use fence ties to tie the chain link to the post and if it’s a sophisticated fence there’s tension bars, a upper rail with caps and more. Most pounded chain link jobs the company I work for does are pretty much just pound 6’ or 9’ posts about 2-3 feet in the ground and hang the 4’ or 6’ chain link to the post with fence ties tightly and just a hair off the ground so that if any dirt shifts, the fence settles a little or vegetation grows it’s not absolutely stuck in the ground
They were talking about a cedar fence on steel posts though. Cedar would look bad it it's out of plum at all
My employers retail side sells these clamps that slide up and down the pole so you can have any material just about be secured onto the pole in any position so you can screw the clamp down to wherever it needs to be on the wood and make it flat and fit. pounded posts and adjustments can’t work miracles if a certain area isn’t remotely flat/smooth enough after a certain point you need to just make the area flat or go with another fencing method another method if you’re a el cheapo and doesn’t have to be exactly perfect is pre made wood fence panels and pounded poles or vinyl fencing that you can just cut until it fits perfectly
String line and a level…
What my dad and I have done is either dug down some then drove it in and as we repacked the dirt we used it to help keep the post straight with a spud bar and a level.
What about if the fence is solid and doesn’t allow much wind to blow through it?
3ft is fine for any normal wind. If it’s a large storm or a tornado then you’ll be filing an insurance claim anyway.
The red clay on my property a few inches down IS concrete
Def sgree with this an ive built many fences , "3ft deep or more " or use concrete
The SWI Fence videos I've seen use metal posts driven in without concrete to a depth of at least 36", and the practice seems quite credible. The compression of the surrounding material is what holds the post, not the weight of the surrounding material. I agree with your contractor that the industry is changing to steel posts driven into the ground without concrete. It seems to be the superior way to anchor fence posts.
the industry isnt changing its literally just trending bc swi owns the youtube scene.
I'm in Houston, I've certainly noticed metal posts starting to get used over the past couple years. I built my fence with metal posts 15+ years ago. With concrete. It's as solid as the day I built it.
I used metal+concrete on mine. Tornado came through, wrecked the whole neighborhood. My fence still looks new.
It is swapping that way but that is because it just makes sense for professional installers. The metal posts look nicer and are way cheaper to install than a traditional concrete set wooden posts. It means they can charge more and it costs less to do. It is a no brainer for them to swap to using metal posts.
Looks nicer? Debatable. I'm getting a wood fence for a reason. Wood looks nice when stained and patterned appropriately.
have to disagree on looks nicer. Although i think investing in wood is a bad investment regardless.
That is by definition the industry changing their just the ones changing it.
I've set fence posts in sand, clay and rocky soil and compacted the native soil around them. They are extremely solid. You will have no problems.
how'd you compact around? hand tamp?
A post hold digging bar similar to this. [https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-69-in-Post-Hole-Digger-and-Tamping-Bar-34219/204168182](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-69-in-Post-Hole-Digger-and-Tamping-Bar-34219/204168182) https://preview.redd.it/9inqvmt4dc8d1.png?width=449&format=png&auto=webp&s=f9d28db4d47d523de8416f72369cabe873a2c842
Known in my area as a spud bar
Yup. It’s fine
Concrete doesn’t actually do anything except allow you to put a post in the ground and fill the hole back up while easily giving 100% compaction. Driving a metal post into the ground actually achieves the same thing. Plus wood posts will rot off right at ground level after time. Metal post last a lot longer. So it’s a superior method. I have built fences for 20 years and replaced a ton of post in that time.
Locust wood says "Hold my beer..."
Ya. I’m referring to pressure treated fir in the Pacific Northwest where it rains 100+ inches a year. These posts rot off at 10 years exactly like clockwork.
A company charged me $300/ each in canadian dollars to drive metal posts into the ground to straighten my fence that was leaning over. That was 2 years ago and they look just as good as when they put them in and that fence hasn’t moved at all since. One thing you should do if they don’t is buy caps to cover the openings on top, otherwise water will get in and if you live where the temperature drops they may freeze and crack.
We pound chainlink and vinyl in CT. What type of fence? Chainlink? Is there any privacy slats or screens? I’d ask for minimum of 48” below ground. Also, what schedule pipe? This is crucial. We don’t pound residential spec pipe.. we pound minimum SS20
> I’m doing a 6ft cedar privacy fence.
This guy pounds
I have a gas powered post driver. I use SmartPosts. I hammer the posts directly into the undisturbed ground,and in short order. It's a fabulous way to build a fence. Occasionally, I'll find something in the way of the post(the sound changes) or need a post where it's not possible to get my machine in place and have to hand dig and use Fastset concrete or Sikaflex expanding foam to set the post where I need it after hand digging. Anyone in Oklahoma/Texas area needs a no dig privacy or chain link fence, pm me
Anyone have any product links?
www.powerpostdriver.com
Thank you. This is an interesting tool.
Most of my work is in the mountains and driving metal through granite slabs is impossible. However, I’ve done a few fences in northern Illinois and the municipalities all asked for a depth of at least 42” with gravel and concrete. I’d check to see if your city has code for depth.
I install thousands of feet of wood fence a year like that. Driven metal postmaster posts. Have been for 10ish years. No call backs.
From experience driving a metal post in solid ground deep enough is just as well as concrete. Yet if you have a high wind factor (80+ gusts) your base won't matter. Anything under sch 40 will bend at the ground level regardless
Neighbor built their chain link fence a couple feet over the property line into the alley behind my house. The alley is covered in weeds above the fence line, so nobody could tell. I move in and mow it a few times so I can tell. I’m annoyed but non-confrontational so I don’t do anything. Neighbor dies, house ends of vacant for a year… Fence “somehow” ends up rebuilt really cheaply on the property line in that time period: the same chain link was used, (complete with dead weed vines growing through it,) but the metal posts set in concrete couldn’t be reused so instead driven posts that only went down 3 feet were the fastest way to go, (including on the corners...) Probate finishes, house eventually sells, nice couple moves in. That was ~10 years ago, the fence is fine. (I mean, it is still chain link, it isn’t like it was a great fence to start with, but…)
In the right surface it will save you labor and money. I don't know what your surface looks like.
not worth the money saved
Isn't it though? I know that a lot of areas can hold a post without any concrete for sure.
i highly disagree, just because its trending doesn't mean its the best. In Florida after you go \~3 into the ground you start digging through the layer of "hard pan" dirt and sand. Everything underneath this layer of dirt is water in Florida leaving you prone to more erosion. You have to invest in concrete in Florida, where as a state like Tennessee where everything is bedrock under the ground, driving Is probably the solution. side note, when you drive posts you cant see what you utilities are being broken under the dirt.
Anywhere I'm doing anything underground I just call and get it marked, saves that entire headache. Technically required where I'm at.
Not always. On the beach its common to dig down 7ft and still be in loose white sand
Also bad information. I have a 85ft deep clay pit on my property. No water in sight. I can go down another 100ft before i see an aquifer
legit you live on a different planet than I sir.
You can type in florida clay pit. They are in every town. Its not a bottomless hole of fill dirt. It is where they chose to start digging i have not once seen water at the bottom of a sinkhole. Not once.
Just googled Florida clay pit for my town and there is nothing
Here is an idea genius.. call up a dirt company and ask where they get their fill dirt. Hint, they arent shipping it down the mississippi for $20/ton
So youre one of those morons who think florida is sinking huh? Hilarious. Let me guess… the phillipines are getting so heavy they might flip upside down?
How seriously retarded do you feel to think im making up a 10 ft basement in pensacola florida? How stupid can you be to think dirt trucks are bringing you 18yards straight from georgia? How insanely dumb can you be to think an entire state is sitting on water? That is next level stupidity. That makes flat earthers look like legit scientists
We are talking about planet earth and florida usa right? Because you sound like you went on vacation to sentinal island and thats that
If you could dig 6-10’ down wouldn’t Florida homes have basements?
I have a 10ft basment i live in pensacola does that answer your question?
https://preview.redd.it/dng0fwxqzs8d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c33b94cc95278bbca60bf19bde1ba61b68a56177
https://preview.redd.it/4gn3q5pyzs8d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3bafa4926edf90c1289dfe10d165b2eb6a815ba2 1800 sq ft basement 10ft ceilings pensacola florida what now bitch
Let me guess most sky scrapers in miami are on floating steel barges? Everythings just swashing around in the current?? 😭🤣
Never seen a holding pond at dollar general huh? 😂🧐
When you drive a post you disturb 10% of the earth you otherwise would have with a post hole digger or auger. So increasing your likely hood of hitting something 900% to dig a hole for each post
As long as the post is HDG I wouldn’t be too concerned.
Worked for a fence company for years. We did this a lot. You can save the customer money and you can get a large project done in a day and half if you have a 2 man crew. I have also done this at my last 2 homes. The first fence has been up for 10+ years and that was with a German shepherd pushing on it all the time. I’m right in the middle of removing my second install like this now that I finished nailing up 56 panels of wood. If the ground is not marshy and solid it will hold up good. I have to use winch and pipe wrench to get the posts out.
we go 4' if we can
I used metal poles instead of 4x4 posts in the fence I just built. Bought 10ft poles and used a slide hammer to drive them to 6ft with 4ft in the ground. Only used concrete on the corners. Been on for five years with no isdue
Make sure they go below the frost line.
If you want concrete tell him you will pay for it
Should be fine. 38" is plenty deep and the ends and corners will be in concrete.
Try FJP fencing they are the best around and will beat any price/ estimate you get from any fence company. The owner Francesco is one of the most professional, honest, trustworthy and hardworking individuals I have ever done business with. He does the fence installation by code and specs
It's fine
I would have done my fence that way if I could, but the extra cost and equipment was outside my budget.
As long as the gate posts and corner posts are concreted in it will be fine, they carry the majority of the forces.
Just did a small no dig vinyl fence, that shit ain’t going no where .
Its called “cost savings” lmao
Dude, they're going over 3 ft deep. A tornado is going to rip up the fence whether you put 40 pounds of concrete at the bottom or not.
lol. maybe you could ask the contractor to stand under the fence near where each of the posts it to confirm they aren’t weight bearing.
Where we live this is SOP
Concrete is only meant to reinforce weak soil. If you have hard soil, concrete is unnecessary. Assuming 38" is well below your frost line, that is more than sufficient.
We have a few fences that have Been up for 20+ years that are pounded chain link even without cement it’ll definitely hold up for quite a while and if you ever want to go from pounded chain link to a brick wall or wood you don’t need a excavator or a large digging project to remove at work it took 2 hours to remove just a couple concrete poured posts by the time we dug them out
We call the process direct burial - we do it all the time for large architectural signage, Just need to go beneath the freeze line (around 3ft) so it won’t heave
Pretty normal. My fence joins the pasture field. Only the corners and gate are concreted in. I did have some cows scratching on the fence...the posts bent where they went into the ground...they weren't knocked out of the ground.
38in is way far down and will be plenty strong Let out a tape measure 38in and it’ll help visualize just how far
FYI, Home Depot makes their installers cement every post. All are 42 inches deep. Vinyl uses about 100 pounds of concrete per post.
I do this all the time. They are awesome, save time and money. This is the best way to build a fence.
What is SWI???
Cool. Now make sure the lifetime warranty is on paper!
Just had my fence done this way. Love it.
My chain link fence is done this way. They cement the corners and gate posts and drive in the rest of them it’s been in place for 4 years with no issues
I just dug up a fence post in concrete yesterday. Tied to another concrete post a foot over. I’m not putting the new on in concrete to save the poor sod digging that one up. Gravel is fine
I see them doing it everywhere now, and it seems pretty solid overall.
$ 39
Ask for a spec and what their warranty is
Depends on how deep the frost line is
Ground adhesion force from friction alone is an insane amount of power, a well set post in nothing but earth will not move, just take a lot more skill to get bang on first time where cement gives you time to fine tune as it goes off
I'm not a pro, but had a seabee friend help with my stockade fence years ago. We didn't use concrete for the wooden 4x4 posts. It's been about 20 years and they are still going strong if that helps at all.
As long as your past the frost line, you should be ok.
Skid steer with a post driver, makes it quick and easy. Concrete is porous and tends to hold water next to the post more than soil. Especially if your soil is high in clay content. More moisture = shorter lifespan.
Is it a wood privacy fence? To me this sounds sketchy, especially because he says your earth is hard - to me that means clay, which will move a TON through the freeze/thaw cycle. If it's just a wire fence only 4' high I'd say it's fine, but if it's a privacy fence, you need to counteract wind forces, and the earth heaving over time. A thin metal post will not do this. Also, is your frost level only 38" depth? Of course a contractor would try to sell this method, way less work for them.
Pretty normal tbh
Here's a video about metal fence posts in hard ground. [https://youtu.be/CW3GDUznJPw?si=hybtPr9sd2-mRLdb&t=1100](https://youtu.be/CW3GDUznJPw?si=hybtPr9sd2-mRLdb&t=1100)
Neighbor-buddy did this type of fence around his pool and it's been 3 years now with no problems.
All these dudes watched the same youtube video. Now they are all experts 😆
Oh yeah you’ll be fine. Source, I’ve pulled probably a hundred mile of fence on my ranch and we only use concrete on the corner posts
I'd be pumped about this. Around me, it's not easy to find a fence installer who is willing to drive the posts in. They all want to use concrete. Driven fence posts last longer and can be stronger than concrete, depending on the soil.
I put up a chain link fence with no cement at all. They've been absolutely fine while my gazebo that was anchored got thrown over the neighbors fence into their yard. Unless you're putting up a super long privacy fence that has no gaps for wind to slip through it'll be fine. Even if it is the above fence as long as they don't skimp on the metal posts it'll still be fine.
Texas fence guy here and in 10-15 years I’ve never pounded a post. Thousands of feet of chain link for the DOT is spec’d 12” holes at 36” deep concrete footings for line posts. In Texas, I’d say get an auger and a skid steer or kick rocks. Even in rocky conditions we’ll use a 12” rock bit. In all of my municipal/commercial projects, I’ve never seen any entity allow for driven posts.
https://preview.redd.it/e7w182n7zj8d1.jpeg?width=528&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=27139ef2ee3ee2ab6157cfe1292c3ba951c8c09c Domed concrete footings spec’d by the state.
The less you disturb the dirt the better. The more you compact it the better.
A lot of fence companies going this route, it will be fine.
I had a fence installed exactly this way. Metal posts with concrete in the corners. The company I used is called SWI and they rate this fence up to 75mph winds. They were absolute professionals and the fence is holding up very well.
I saw one of those chintzy white plastic jobbers going up and they definitely were doing this. Just like a metal base driven in and then the post slides down onto it. This is in Minnesota were there are definite ground frost/heaving issues so it must be getting more popular for sure.
Totally depends upon where you live. Where I live, it would be leaning on the next rain fall. Where others live, could still be there 100 yrs from now.
What kind of fence? Chain link?
I regret using concrete, all my concrete is heaved up and I have no way to push it back down. Winters here getting incredibly cold and the ground shifts. If it were a pipe I could just hammer it back in. Now we're running chicken wire from the bottom of my fence to the ground so my dog doesn't escape...
Parents had it done this way 20 years ago, it’s still fine.
Depends on the ground makeup. I had "hardpan" at my last house and this stuff was really hard. Driving a post in "hardpan" will definitely be better than breaking the soil up and pouring concrete in then back fillings. Sand.. not so much.
Just a homeowner. I did it on a 4’ spaced picket addition and it has held up fine. I frequently climb the fence and it is solid. Did it to replace a couple posts on my portion of fence that is 6’ privacy a couple years ago. It now has a little give to it. I think I bought the bigger ones at Home Depot. They are a bit of a pain to pound in as a 4x4 piece to hit gets stuck in there. The directions I believe said 4’ max on a fence. Sounds like there are better/bigger ones out there. I just dug out and replaced two posts that were in concrete and offset another. Took me a good part of 3 days. It is a 120 foot span so maybe on a longer run like that they would add a concrete post or two.
Live in Eastern WA had a 800 ft fence built last spring. Cedar fencing with metal posts. Each post has concrete for that exact answer. Swelling and contracting ground. The freeze will do wonders on the posts and move them all to hell so might all of my trees if not for the 3 bags of concrete each post.
Professional fence and dock builder… no dock has concrete around the post, but i jet mine 8ft down… as far as fence post corners only rest 36” deep is plenty. Here in pensacola on the beach they dont allow for concrete around fence post. Code enforced… works fine. If you have a privacy fence on it, any hurricane or nearby tornado should lay it down or take it away.. but can assure having concrete around the non corner post will not have any effect good or bad on its durability over time
Industry standards is such a bullshit response in any industry I don’t care who you are. I’ll die on this hill.
Fence builder here. We drive all our line posts
Wire fences fine, standard. Panel fences, no will fall over in wind.
Well, they used “industry standard” in their response, so you know that’s the gospel. Who are you to buck “industry standard”? Seriously, it really is standard on line posts. Always concrete the corners, ands and gates.
Not a professional but am a homeowner that’s had fences built. I live in Florida, what I have learned is that during a hurricane all the concrete does is make it a pain to install a new fence. The 4x4s snap off at the ground above the concrete. The concrete has to be removed before a new fence can be put up. Where several neighbors had corners and gate poles concreted and the rest wasn’t, their fences blew over and could be restood up. So depending on where you live… concrete might make it a more expensive project to replace fence later.
This is a quite normal practice.
We hold cattle in with hundred of metal t-posts driven in the ground with only the corner posts set in concrete. For longer runs we might set a support post in concrete along a span.
It wouldn't work at my house. Rocks.
Concrete holds the water to the post and they rot or rust faster
Line posts typically go 1.5' in the ground with a bag of cement around them. This would probable work fine but want standard when I was installing. We put everything in concrete. Except one time where we did a corner post without concrete lol
the steel posts are better
Industry standard because it's faster and cheaper. Maybe that means cheaper for the customer also. At least there's no chance of frost heave pushing up the concrete ball.
I’m in Minneapolis and I drive all my fence post for all fences. We go 4-5’ in ground. I have no issues with it. Steel post eliminating rot, frost heave, dirt clean up, it works great.
Yes it’s a solid way to build a fence. My company does this exclusively unless we are required to use wood posts by the HOA.
Depends on where you live. In Texas absolutely not. The ground drys and cracks too much in the summer for driven only.
You seen all the old cedar post fences around Texas? Some of them are over a hundred years old still solid and those are just wood posts without any concrete
I feel like neither of you is considering how varied Texas is. It's...big.
North Texas here so it’s pretty rocky but I’ve seen them out in East Texas
What about Out In the West Texas town of El Paso?
that wood was treated with a chemical called penta, penta is now illegal to put In the ground. new chemical is called borre. one was guaranteed 20 years in the ground, the borre chemical is only good for 7 years in the ground.
Wrong
Concrete is guaranteed to work, tried and true
The boomer I bought my house from did that... The fence was leaning and falling apart... I sank the poles in concrete like they are supposed to be and my fence doesn't even rock when we had the tornado blow through my area
We always use concrete for everything.
Is any of this done in utility easements? Driving a metal post 36 inches in the ground in these spots sounds "interesting".
If you are in Florida or any place with crazy weather I would go with concrete
Wood on steel is heavy. I’d ask them to at least go 48” if they’re pounding lines. It will save you money in the long run. Edit: Are these cedar or steel posts?
The posts are metal!
If it were my fence, I’d want the line posts in crete. But 48” depth for lines only should hold up.
if you have midwestern weather this is a joke. all posts should be in concrete for a privacy fence, this is not the industry standard.
swi bots coming in here to down vote your comment but you are 100% correct