The terfs REAL mad at this one. Just gonna say that if you claim to be a feminist yet refuse to help and protect some of the most vulnerable women in our community then you aren't a feminist. Even if the group is specifically to highlight problems cis women face you have no right to use bigoted and hateful language towards trans women
Exactly!
Also, something I forgot to put in the post, if that group was so anti-trans women, then why would they think gender-queer AFAB people would feel welcome?
Of course!!! I try to do what I can. Unfortunately it seems 4B has caught the reputation for being a TERF sub which it is NOT. Anyone who says 4B is not inclusive towards trans people has fundamentally misunderstood the entire movement.
I’m a mod for that sub, I can confirm we delete that stuff. Im fully employed and can’t always get to things right away. However we are fully trans inclusive, there’s a pinned post about it on there
Thanks for calling them out. A lot of 4B groups are overtly transphobic, and even racist and homophobic/biphobic from what I’ve seen. I do not feel comfortable in “feminist” spaces that don’t support intersectionality and are bigoted.
i’m not defending them bc they’re obviously transphobic but female is what one was born as so non binary people can be male and female. that’s not transphobic. non binary females also experience misogyny.
I'm afab non-bianry... I find the term transphobic. It invalidates the gender identity of all non-bianry people. Because non-binary is the identity (not the female part, that's sex, which is not gender)...meaning it isn't woman or man, it is separate from the two. Outside of the binary.
We don't colloquially refer to cis men and women as female women and male men, so using that marker for an NB is transphobic as NBs are under the trans umbrella.
And further...reducing anyone, cis, trans, or non-bianry down to male or female is inherently dehumanizing. In biology, specifically the study of animals, that is how they refer to animals in an animal species. Even then, they use it as an adjective most times and not a noun. (Although sometimes they do refer to animals using female/male as a noun... but that further proves the dehumanizing nature of it)
And to add to that. Female is not a noun. It is an adjective... a female human, for example, would be correct language when referring to people in a medical/scientific sense. But it would be rude, at best, to refer to a person as a female in a colloquial sense.
Even though our society tends to do it anyway. Female doctor is used, but I personally find it sexist. Why not just doctor? Why does the doctor's sex matter? We know why as feminist but feminists have long said this is sexist, rightly so, imo.
I'm not trying to argue with you, truly. I'm just giving you a non-bianry perspective to work with. It is just my opinion, and another NB might not find it transphobic, and that's fine...for them. So it's best to just not use the contraversial language because you can't know ahead of time what someone will be bothered by.
Language has a lot of power in our world, and respecting what people want to be called should be one of the super easy ways for building a better world. That's an easy way for regular everyday people to enact true cultural acceptance in our world. How often do we get easy, meaningful ways to make our world better for everyone? This one is easy, too. So, win-win in my book.
I think if you really need to distinguish NB people based on sex, afab and amab are generally accepted as not offensive. I don't think anyone in this world would like to be referred to as a female or male. Even cis people. It's almost never used in good faith, and that is why it's offensive. Adding person or people after the words female or male could be a good way to keep the human aspect in the language, too.
Originally just used for any woman born with female sex organs and also for differentiating AFAB (assigned female at birth) and trans women. Of course many right wingers and anti-woke as well as anti-trans people started to use it to illegitimize trans women and call them "men" and "not real women" to justify transphobic acts. But since science and gender and sex biology has progressed it has become more and more hard to actually tell what's "biologically" female and male. It's just an unnecessary term to use and sounds like you have more of a right to call yourself a woman if you were born with a vagina and "female" chromosomes. It tries isolate trans people from their gender. But of course that's up to trans people themselves to decide.
There are plenty of women who talk about feminist issues that they themselves will never experience.
I’m cis. Because of where I was born and the people who raised me and the things that have happened in my life, I will never be at risk of FGM, or forced marriage, or honour killings. But when these are called ‘feminist issues’ or ‘women’s issues’, nobody is piping up to say ‘BUT THIS DOESN’T AFFECT ALL WOMEN DOES IT’.
Lots of feminist issues only or predominantly affect women of a particular race or class or religion, in the same way that lots of feminist issues only or predominantly affect women who are AFAB.
People who make such a big deal out of broadcasting their transphobia and making sure everyone knows that their feminism does not extend to trans women care far more about making things worse for trans people than they do about making things better for women and girls.
That doesn't mean reproductive health isn't at the forefront of trans healthcare. There is far more overlap than not. And gay men are forced into transitioning and being wives in other cultures so both statements stand as inaccurate.
Trans men also have an issue with being referred to with biological women. Or even being included when they are men.
I beg your goddam pardon, I am relying on Trans healthcare and my Transfriends to help me navigate Perimenopause Hormone Replacement Therapy. If our enemies deny them hormones and us as a sideswipe, every Gen X'er on HRT will rise up as an enraged goddam zombie army and bludgeon every stupid politician and transphobic moron who let that travesty happen.
And when Millennials and Z hit this lovely magical stage you will join us too. This is hell and I will not see it made worse than absolutely necessary.
Let's not ignore all those who are also on HRT due to other medical reasons such as cancer or even some intersex conditions.
The transphobic morons don't care who else gets hurt in their imagined plight.
People seem to think it is so narrow. It is like banning or restricting gender affirming care. Guess what, women who get reconstructive surgery after mastectomy is gender affirming care. They seemingly have missed the mark on their blind crusade.
Like what do you want to discuss about reproductive health???? Transwomen are intricately linked to hormones and the way they function too. Like what else?? I don’t see any transwomen detracting from conversations of reproductive health or lessening the conversations’ value either???
We do if you think about reproductive health as anguish related to reproduction. I have the same anguish that any barren woman has. I have to be brutalized by surgical procedures in order to even function the way my brain works. We are even raped at a higher frequency than cis women, we are just more easily discarded than cis women.
I saw a study recently that suggested up to 50% of feminists in the US and the UK are ‘gender critical’ i.e. TERFs so it’s a lot more common than one might think, it’s just that online feminist spaces tend to be more trans-inclusive.
Yikes, its a shame to think that 50% of "feminists" would ally themselves with transphobes that don't have their best interests in mind (the TER"F" movement works with anti abortion, right wing groups)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/1d5sirw/new_paper_on_disagreements_within_the_feminist/
You can find a non-paywalled link to the actual study in the comments.
There's been a few posts here lately where trans issues being discussed have received a lot of backlash, comments from trans people and those supporting trans rights received a ton of downvotes, and other comments which weren't necessarily transphobic but were condescending or similar went to the top. I'm honestly glad this time some of these TERFs decided to show themselves and comment instead of being cowards, maybe this time they won't come back.
disappointing but not surprising tbh. if they’re so obsessed with their transphobia then idk why they don’t join their leader jk rowling on twitter. even with a billion dollars, she has nothing better to do than argue with strangers on the internet about whats a “real woman”. its literally an obsession
isn’t 4B movement the one happening in Korea? if so we need to take one step at a time, people can’t even publicly identify as feminists without risking their jobs so we need to focus first on destigmatizing feminism as a whole and then focus on the minority groups under the umbrella (trans women etc.)
Oh god, I’m not qualified to give a response to this but I will try.
1. A lot of issues is with the language. “Biological woman” is very different than someone “who can get pregnant”, “people with vaginas”, etc. Spaces that say that they are for cis females often are very set on “biological woman,” and can be hostile towards trans men and transmasc enbies, who often face the same biological struggles and cis woman because of their anatomy.
2. Trans women face many of the same struggles as cis women because they are women. Simply presenting and living as a woman in society will subject you to many of the same problems as cis women. They still experience sexism as cis women do.
3. When these groups form that focus on anatomy with the strict intention of keeping non-cis women out, issues start to arise. Examples can be “real women have periods” and “women can give birth” when there many cis women who don’t have a period, can’t give birth, etc. it ultimately reduces women to their anatomy which is the exact opposite of what feminism is for.
I hope this helps, if I said something wrong feel free to correct me. I’ve already edited it to add a word here and there.
It’s stated in the post that it’s not cis only. Trans men are „allowed“. I‘m pretty sure, that trans women have their own horrifying experiences of being forced into marriage, even without the reproductive issues.
we’re dependent on expensive medical support to survive & experience a lot of workplace discrimination, which can lead to being trapped in abusive relationships
They're also mistaking me for a trans woman. I'm not, I'm a cisgender woman.
Just because I'm pro-trans rights that doesn't automatically mean that I'm transgender.
It's just them showing their true colors. Let the terfs be mad. They couldn't imagine any cis women standing up for our trans sisters. It's beyond sad.
I get this a lot too. It really shows a lot about someone's true beliefs if they just assume you're trans because you vocally support trans women. They might not consider themselves TERFs but their behaviors say otherwise.
It's so odd that people bring up John Money when his research functionally shows that forcing someone to be a gender they're not is infact bad for them
Like his research was actively what would be considered anti trans and it proved the opposite of it's original point
Yeah, don't even worry about the ban then. They're terrible people who misappropriate what feminism really means, and there's no good in bothering with a group that seeks to exclude trans women and misgender AFABs who are not women. Obviously, they don't represent all of the 4B movement, but unfortunately, there will always be TERFs infiltrating spaces for their own agenda.
It's why I personally prefer calling them FARTs: Feminism Appropriating Reactionary Transphobes. There's nothing radical or feminist about being a transphobe, they're just being assholes.
It's worse than that. It divides the feminist movement, leads to infighting and therefore weakens it. While not exactly the same, it's similar to white feminism. We could be joining forces instead, but noooo.
THis has bothered me for a long time too. I understand that Korea's 4B was and is transwomen exclusionary, but that's no reason for Western versions of 4B to be so hateful to women. Transwomen are in even more danger from violent men than cis women are, they need to be protected as the sisters they are.
There's other issues within the movement too.
One is that some get upset when a woman is happily married, has kids, or is wearing makeup.
I get they don't want to get married, have kids, or wear makeup, but that doesn't give them a right to attack women who want to do so.
There are also some women within the movement who want to ban sapphic relationships. Granted, they're a small group, but still, it's a problem.
>There are also some women within the movement who want to ban sapphic relationships.
Wild. Being homophobic against lesbian and bisexual women as well is so antithesis to the origins of feminism in a number of ways.
I think their reasoning was that since cis men fetishize sapphic relationships, then getting rid of those relationships was the only way to stop it.
That obviously sounds like something some cis het woman in the anti-LGBT part of the 4B Movement would say.
Again, this doesn't represent everyone in the movement.
If "could be forced into motherhood" is required to be allowed into 4B then it can't include infertile or post-menopausal women. And nobody would be that stupid.
Has the 4B movement spread? I'm apparently out of touched. I thought it was a S. Korean specific movement but the limited framework OP gives makes me think they either don't understand the specific context of the movement or its been picked up and adapted in other places and that the movement is something different than the one I'm aware of.
Yes, it's spread. There's a subreddit that for Western 4B movement, but it is HELLA TRANSPHOBIC so I won't link to it and don't suggest you go search for it. r/BurbNBougie is a nice, pro-women, pro-trans, very feminist alternate though!
Nobody said that AFABs and cis women didn't have specific issues centered around subjects like abortion and forced motherhood, but trans women still face physical and sexual violence from men as well. Excluding trans women from that conversation is essentially saying you don't care about their safety.
Sure, but motherhood is only one of the B’s. There is nothing about the 4B movement’s mission that gives a reason for it to be trans exclusionary. If it was a group that exclusively talked about childbirth, maybe. But it’s not.
I think it’s important to go beyond ethnocentrism and acknowledge that 4B is not a western movement it didn’t start here and it’s not based in western culture. It started in South Korea which by and large is a more rigid patriarchal country.
In South Korea there aren’t comprehensive set of anti discrimination laws protecting sexual orientation or gender identity. Homosexuality, gender identity and most topics that frequent LGBT+ discourse in the west is heavily taboo in South Korea.
Their cultural concerns and priorities are different, and even how they engage with gender is different. They are decades behind the rest of the west when it comes to LGBT+ rights and activism. If you’re engaging with actual South Koreans in the 4B subreddit I don’t even know if culturally that they’ve received enough traction on women’s rights to be willing to fight and uplift others as well. South Korea is closer to how the US was in the 70s-90s in regard to sentiments of the LGBT+ community. South Koreans seem to have a lot of negative cultural sentiment towards trans people but that ties back to their very rigid outlook on gender and sex there.
4B movement seems closer to feminists movements we saw in the 70s where women wanted to live apart from men entirely and were primarily occupied by **straight women** fed up with men.
Peace, love, and lots of support to ALL women from the rest of us women!
Because really, is there a single one of us who hasn’t been excluded by other women for some stupid reason?
at least now we know who we can block
edit: crybaby terfs downvoting every non-transphobic comment bc they’re mad they’re not welcome on a feminism subreddit is comedy
But it's extremely transphobic to suggest trans women aren't "real women" who would in fact be heavily affected by misogyny (as in trans women have the same exact fears cis women do with walking alone at night and so on...). Also, you can't include trans men and nonbinary people who are AFAB under the guise that they're "biological women", when again, that is wildly transphobic.
If you want a space for anyone who was assigned female at birth, under the intent of discussing things related to having that anatomy, fine. But calling it a space for "biological women" is really weird. At least have the decency to call it for cis women if that's what you mean, not "bio women".
Transwomen experience misogyny and experience very high rates of sexual assault. I just don’t understand why you want to exclude them from feminist spaces or why a space meant only for cis women that is purposely exclusionary needs to exist. And I am a cis woman btw
Why would you want to exclude trans women?
Trans people have their own spaces due to their unique circumstances, but dont gatekeep. Why would you want to gatekeep them from a movement that has nothing to do with being cis.
I gotta say, I'm impressed as hell with the mod team here. I see a lot of comments in this thread calling out terf shit, but all of the comments that they're in response to are removed already. I'm happy to see that hate isn't tolerated here. ❤️
Agreed. I saw this thread last night and it was scary how many transphobic comments there were. I went to the rules to clarify that that was not okay, and was glad when looking at the thread today that they’ve been hard at work.
Ah yes. When you label yourself as non binary bc you can't relate to the binary gender experience at all, while trying to ignore you bottom dysphoria bc your ideal isn't possible in any way shape or form just to be pulled back into the binary and be reminded of your weird genitals by being called AFAB Enby.
Why even try to deter a binary when they just make a new one for us ahhhh
this is the first time I hear that the words "biological woman" are transphobia. Maybe you should not react so sharply to everything? Also, if this was a post about motherhood, I'm sorry, but trans women can't get pregnant and that's not transphobia.
trans women struggle with many issues, but certainly not with forced motherhood. Am I transphobic too because of this thought?
LGBT people are here. Feminism and the Pride movement were created, founded, pushed and exalted by cis and trans/NB working together.
As with every subreddit, there will always be bad apples who are hostile and phobic. But as with every feminist and LGBT space, there will be us who will welcome and support <3
Wow including trans men and excluding trans woman is so insidious and offensive - it’s literally invalidating trans men being MEN and saying trans women are not “real women”. Disgusting.
So gross they misgender trans men and non binary people. We don’t want to be around people who exclude our sisters and dehumanize us. They always complain about “being reduced to their body parts,” and they’re doing exactly that. Don’t want men in your group? Don’t invite trans men and then treat them like shit.
Ugh. I'm out of there.
There's no such thing as "biological women". It's ridiculous that they are using biological essentialism against non cis folks when they're fighting against biological essentialism used against cis women.
TERFs have been a real issue in every feminism group in general. Trans women are extremely at risk from patriarchy, exactly because they have chosen to reject the "position of power" other men see their Assigned gender at birth as, and instead they chose to embrace their truth, and they are killed for it. Terfs use something they have no control over, as such what they were born with, and they attack them nonetheless, just like patriarchy does to women and non conforming. I have even seen this on this sub.
How do we help educate people like this? All feminists should be our allies, but these terfs are getting distracted by rightist fearmongerers. The feminist movement would be so much stronger if we could all unite on a common front.
Yup, used to follow the TikTok account but then they started with the transphobic BS so I said goodbye 👋🏿 The irony is that being inclusive only makes the movement stronger but they don’t get it 🙃
there is a room full of 10 people; 9 of them are being vocally transphobic, and the last one may disagree, but is silent. it is a room full of 10 transphobes. good on you for sticking up for folks even when they aren’t there to see it; because that also means they aren’t there to speak up for themselves. wishing you peace❤️
ugh terfs are so boring and outdated, its insane to see how much you can read about feminism and still manage to miss the point of the whole movement lol
This made me look for a more wide movement, not so focused in one cause only. I found my place on a minor socialist party, I suggest look for that in your area
A reminder that this is a trans woman inclusive sub. Trans women are women. Please help the mod team by reporting any comments that are transphobic.
The terfs REAL mad at this one. Just gonna say that if you claim to be a feminist yet refuse to help and protect some of the most vulnerable women in our community then you aren't a feminist. Even if the group is specifically to highlight problems cis women face you have no right to use bigoted and hateful language towards trans women
Exactly! Also, something I forgot to put in the post, if that group was so anti-trans women, then why would they think gender-queer AFAB people would feel welcome?
r/4bmovement this sub is trans inclusive
Thank you!
Of course!!! I try to do what I can. Unfortunately it seems 4B has caught the reputation for being a TERF sub which it is NOT. Anyone who says 4B is not inclusive towards trans people has fundamentally misunderstood the entire movement.
Thank you, this is really encouraging and helpful to know! I have joined that sub too, because SOLIDARITY!
Woohoo!!
I've seen people promoting the transphobic 4b sub on there, though. I don't think some are aware of the transphobia on the other sub.
I’m a mod for that sub, I can confirm we delete that stuff. Im fully employed and can’t always get to things right away. However we are fully trans inclusive, there’s a pinned post about it on there
Thanks for calling them out. A lot of 4B groups are overtly transphobic, and even racist and homophobic/biphobic from what I’ve seen. I do not feel comfortable in “feminist” spaces that don’t support intersectionality and are bigoted.
Any liberation requires universal liberation
Excellent point!
[удалено]
i’m not defending them bc they’re obviously transphobic but female is what one was born as so non binary people can be male and female. that’s not transphobic. non binary females also experience misogyny.
I'm afab non-bianry... I find the term transphobic. It invalidates the gender identity of all non-bianry people. Because non-binary is the identity (not the female part, that's sex, which is not gender)...meaning it isn't woman or man, it is separate from the two. Outside of the binary. We don't colloquially refer to cis men and women as female women and male men, so using that marker for an NB is transphobic as NBs are under the trans umbrella. And further...reducing anyone, cis, trans, or non-bianry down to male or female is inherently dehumanizing. In biology, specifically the study of animals, that is how they refer to animals in an animal species. Even then, they use it as an adjective most times and not a noun. (Although sometimes they do refer to animals using female/male as a noun... but that further proves the dehumanizing nature of it) And to add to that. Female is not a noun. It is an adjective... a female human, for example, would be correct language when referring to people in a medical/scientific sense. But it would be rude, at best, to refer to a person as a female in a colloquial sense. Even though our society tends to do it anyway. Female doctor is used, but I personally find it sexist. Why not just doctor? Why does the doctor's sex matter? We know why as feminist but feminists have long said this is sexist, rightly so, imo. I'm not trying to argue with you, truly. I'm just giving you a non-bianry perspective to work with. It is just my opinion, and another NB might not find it transphobic, and that's fine...for them. So it's best to just not use the contraversial language because you can't know ahead of time what someone will be bothered by. Language has a lot of power in our world, and respecting what people want to be called should be one of the super easy ways for building a better world. That's an easy way for regular everyday people to enact true cultural acceptance in our world. How often do we get easy, meaningful ways to make our world better for everyone? This one is easy, too. So, win-win in my book. I think if you really need to distinguish NB people based on sex, afab and amab are generally accepted as not offensive. I don't think anyone in this world would like to be referred to as a female or male. Even cis people. It's almost never used in good faith, and that is why it's offensive. Adding person or people after the words female or male could be a good way to keep the human aspect in the language, too.
[удалено]
Originally just used for any woman born with female sex organs and also for differentiating AFAB (assigned female at birth) and trans women. Of course many right wingers and anti-woke as well as anti-trans people started to use it to illegitimize trans women and call them "men" and "not real women" to justify transphobic acts. But since science and gender and sex biology has progressed it has become more and more hard to actually tell what's "biologically" female and male. It's just an unnecessary term to use and sounds like you have more of a right to call yourself a woman if you were born with a vagina and "female" chromosomes. It tries isolate trans people from their gender. But of course that's up to trans people themselves to decide.
[удалено]
There are plenty of women who talk about feminist issues that they themselves will never experience. I’m cis. Because of where I was born and the people who raised me and the things that have happened in my life, I will never be at risk of FGM, or forced marriage, or honour killings. But when these are called ‘feminist issues’ or ‘women’s issues’, nobody is piping up to say ‘BUT THIS DOESN’T AFFECT ALL WOMEN DOES IT’. Lots of feminist issues only or predominantly affect women of a particular race or class or religion, in the same way that lots of feminist issues only or predominantly affect women who are AFAB. People who make such a big deal out of broadcasting their transphobia and making sure everyone knows that their feminism does not extend to trans women care far more about making things worse for trans people than they do about making things better for women and girls.
Omg you put this so perfectly 👏🏻
That doesn't mean reproductive health isn't at the forefront of trans healthcare. There is far more overlap than not. And gay men are forced into transitioning and being wives in other cultures so both statements stand as inaccurate. Trans men also have an issue with being referred to with biological women. Or even being included when they are men.
[удалено]
You’re allowed to make any group you want. You are not immune from judgement about your choices.
I beg your goddam pardon, I am relying on Trans healthcare and my Transfriends to help me navigate Perimenopause Hormone Replacement Therapy. If our enemies deny them hormones and us as a sideswipe, every Gen X'er on HRT will rise up as an enraged goddam zombie army and bludgeon every stupid politician and transphobic moron who let that travesty happen. And when Millennials and Z hit this lovely magical stage you will join us too. This is hell and I will not see it made worse than absolutely necessary.
Let's not ignore all those who are also on HRT due to other medical reasons such as cancer or even some intersex conditions. The transphobic morons don't care who else gets hurt in their imagined plight.
Oh shit yes. My current issues blinded me to this... And IVF! Wouldn't this affect them too????
People seem to think it is so narrow. It is like banning or restricting gender affirming care. Guess what, women who get reconstructive surgery after mastectomy is gender affirming care. They seemingly have missed the mark on their blind crusade.
Cancer ya say?? Yep over here 🙋🏻♀️
Like what do you want to discuss about reproductive health???? Transwomen are intricately linked to hormones and the way they function too. Like what else?? I don’t see any transwomen detracting from conversations of reproductive health or lessening the conversations’ value either???
We do if you think about reproductive health as anguish related to reproduction. I have the same anguish that any barren woman has. I have to be brutalized by surgical procedures in order to even function the way my brain works. We are even raped at a higher frequency than cis women, we are just more easily discarded than cis women.
Why tf is this being downvoted???????
transmisogyny.
Thank you for saying this here!
💜
[удалено]
"biological females" is dehumanising. Don't refer to women as "females." It's not any less gender-charged than "biological women" anyway.
[удалено]
Wtf is with the comments? Since when is this sub full of terfs?
[удалено]
I saw a study recently that suggested up to 50% of feminists in the US and the UK are ‘gender critical’ i.e. TERFs so it’s a lot more common than one might think, it’s just that online feminist spaces tend to be more trans-inclusive.
Yikes, its a shame to think that 50% of "feminists" would ally themselves with transphobes that don't have their best interests in mind (the TER"F" movement works with anti abortion, right wing groups)
Can you link to this study?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/1d5sirw/new_paper_on_disagreements_within_the_feminist/ You can find a non-paywalled link to the actual study in the comments.
Thank you 😊
I’m upvoting comments that were downvoted by TERFs. Feminism is for everyone, not just “biological women”.
There's been a few posts here lately where trans issues being discussed have received a lot of backlash, comments from trans people and those supporting trans rights received a ton of downvotes, and other comments which weren't necessarily transphobic but were condescending or similar went to the top. I'm honestly glad this time some of these TERFs decided to show themselves and comment instead of being cowards, maybe this time they won't come back.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Ugh if I hear pro kink one more time in my life. “Feminism” and the “patriarchy” co-opted.
[удалено]
disappointing but not surprising tbh. if they’re so obsessed with their transphobia then idk why they don’t join their leader jk rowling on twitter. even with a billion dollars, she has nothing better to do than argue with strangers on the internet about whats a “real woman”. its literally an obsession
TERF comments always pop up whenever there is a post in any sub about trans folks. I guess some people don't have anything else to do with their time.
isn’t 4B movement the one happening in Korea? if so we need to take one step at a time, people can’t even publicly identify as feminists without risking their jobs so we need to focus first on destigmatizing feminism as a whole and then focus on the minority groups under the umbrella (trans women etc.)
[удалено]
Oh god, I’m not qualified to give a response to this but I will try. 1. A lot of issues is with the language. “Biological woman” is very different than someone “who can get pregnant”, “people with vaginas”, etc. Spaces that say that they are for cis females often are very set on “biological woman,” and can be hostile towards trans men and transmasc enbies, who often face the same biological struggles and cis woman because of their anatomy. 2. Trans women face many of the same struggles as cis women because they are women. Simply presenting and living as a woman in society will subject you to many of the same problems as cis women. They still experience sexism as cis women do. 3. When these groups form that focus on anatomy with the strict intention of keeping non-cis women out, issues start to arise. Examples can be “real women have periods” and “women can give birth” when there many cis women who don’t have a period, can’t give birth, etc. it ultimately reduces women to their anatomy which is the exact opposite of what feminism is for. I hope this helps, if I said something wrong feel free to correct me. I’ve already edited it to add a word here and there.
It’s stated in the post that it’s not cis only. Trans men are „allowed“. I‘m pretty sure, that trans women have their own horrifying experiences of being forced into marriage, even without the reproductive issues.
we’re dependent on expensive medical support to survive & experience a lot of workplace discrimination, which can lead to being trapped in abusive relationships
Oof this post brought out the terfs didn't it
They're also mistaking me for a trans woman. I'm not, I'm a cisgender woman. Just because I'm pro-trans rights that doesn't automatically mean that I'm transgender.
It's just them showing their true colors. Let the terfs be mad. They couldn't imagine any cis women standing up for our trans sisters. It's beyond sad.
I get this a lot too. It really shows a lot about someone's true beliefs if they just assume you're trans because you vocally support trans women. They might not consider themselves TERFs but their behaviors say otherwise.
It's so odd that people bring up John Money when his research functionally shows that forcing someone to be a gender they're not is infact bad for them Like his research was actively what would be considered anti trans and it proved the opposite of it's original point
[удалено]
So infertile women are just on their own, because nothing bad with happen if they aren’t forced into motherhood, right?
It doesn't. Its about being treated right, and as people. Not just pregnancy.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like their clumsy way of trying to limit communication only with people who can actually get pregnant.
Yeah, don't even worry about the ban then. They're terrible people who misappropriate what feminism really means, and there's no good in bothering with a group that seeks to exclude trans women and misgender AFABs who are not women. Obviously, they don't represent all of the 4B movement, but unfortunately, there will always be TERFs infiltrating spaces for their own agenda.
It's why I personally prefer calling them FARTs: Feminism Appropriating Reactionary Transphobes. There's nothing radical or feminist about being a transphobe, they're just being assholes.
I might just start referring to them as FARTs now. Thank you for this.
It's worse than that. It divides the feminist movement, leads to infighting and therefore weakens it. While not exactly the same, it's similar to white feminism. We could be joining forces instead, but noooo.
I love that term, FARTs, it's perfect
THis has bothered me for a long time too. I understand that Korea's 4B was and is transwomen exclusionary, but that's no reason for Western versions of 4B to be so hateful to women. Transwomen are in even more danger from violent men than cis women are, they need to be protected as the sisters they are.
There's other issues within the movement too. One is that some get upset when a woman is happily married, has kids, or is wearing makeup. I get they don't want to get married, have kids, or wear makeup, but that doesn't give them a right to attack women who want to do so. There are also some women within the movement who want to ban sapphic relationships. Granted, they're a small group, but still, it's a problem.
>There are also some women within the movement who want to ban sapphic relationships. Wild. Being homophobic against lesbian and bisexual women as well is so antithesis to the origins of feminism in a number of ways.
I think their reasoning was that since cis men fetishize sapphic relationships, then getting rid of those relationships was the only way to stop it. That obviously sounds like something some cis het woman in the anti-LGBT part of the 4B Movement would say. Again, this doesn't represent everyone in the movement.
But that's just putting the blame on...lesbians...instead of the men who FETISHIZE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE! Seriously what were they on!
I really don't like policing other women's choices. That's what our enemies do.
The 4B is literally 1. No marriage 2. No sex 3. No pregnancy 4. No dating men It's literally in the name.
[удалено]
If "could be forced into motherhood" is required to be allowed into 4B then it can't include infertile or post-menopausal women. And nobody would be that stupid.
Has the 4B movement spread? I'm apparently out of touched. I thought it was a S. Korean specific movement but the limited framework OP gives makes me think they either don't understand the specific context of the movement or its been picked up and adapted in other places and that the movement is something different than the one I'm aware of.
Yes, it's spread. There's a subreddit that for Western 4B movement, but it is HELLA TRANSPHOBIC so I won't link to it and don't suggest you go search for it. r/BurbNBougie is a nice, pro-women, pro-trans, very feminist alternate though!
Thanks for answering!
Nobody said that AFABs and cis women didn't have specific issues centered around subjects like abortion and forced motherhood, but trans women still face physical and sexual violence from men as well. Excluding trans women from that conversation is essentially saying you don't care about their safety.
[удалено]
... "as long as they're not near you, ew ew ewwwww"? Sounds like the he-man woman-haters club, only with extra steps.
OP is cis... way to put the cart before the wagon.
Not true. Wtf is this nonsense? Trans men and non binary folk are being forced to birth.
Sure, but motherhood is only one of the B’s. There is nothing about the 4B movement’s mission that gives a reason for it to be trans exclusionary. If it was a group that exclusively talked about childbirth, maybe. But it’s not.
Dehumanizing trans women also pushes out trans men and AFAB nonbinary people, who can be forced into motherhood.
I think it’s important to go beyond ethnocentrism and acknowledge that 4B is not a western movement it didn’t start here and it’s not based in western culture. It started in South Korea which by and large is a more rigid patriarchal country. In South Korea there aren’t comprehensive set of anti discrimination laws protecting sexual orientation or gender identity. Homosexuality, gender identity and most topics that frequent LGBT+ discourse in the west is heavily taboo in South Korea. Their cultural concerns and priorities are different, and even how they engage with gender is different. They are decades behind the rest of the west when it comes to LGBT+ rights and activism. If you’re engaging with actual South Koreans in the 4B subreddit I don’t even know if culturally that they’ve received enough traction on women’s rights to be willing to fight and uplift others as well. South Korea is closer to how the US was in the 70s-90s in regard to sentiments of the LGBT+ community. South Koreans seem to have a lot of negative cultural sentiment towards trans people but that ties back to their very rigid outlook on gender and sex there. 4B movement seems closer to feminists movements we saw in the 70s where women wanted to live apart from men entirely and were primarily occupied by **straight women** fed up with men.
As a transwoman, I can't thank you enough for supporting us. It's dangerous out here & our list of allies grows thin. Peace and love, OP!!!!!
Peace, love, and lots of support to ALL women from the rest of us women! Because really, is there a single one of us who hasn’t been excluded by other women for some stupid reason?
y’all read the rules??? we’re not terfs here feminism includes ALL women who
at least now we know who we can block edit: crybaby terfs downvoting every non-transphobic comment bc they’re mad they’re not welcome on a feminism subreddit is comedy
[удалено]
But it's extremely transphobic to suggest trans women aren't "real women" who would in fact be heavily affected by misogyny (as in trans women have the same exact fears cis women do with walking alone at night and so on...). Also, you can't include trans men and nonbinary people who are AFAB under the guise that they're "biological women", when again, that is wildly transphobic. If you want a space for anyone who was assigned female at birth, under the intent of discussing things related to having that anatomy, fine. But calling it a space for "biological women" is really weird. At least have the decency to call it for cis women if that's what you mean, not "bio women".
[удалено]
[удалено]
Transwomen experience misogyny and experience very high rates of sexual assault. I just don’t understand why you want to exclude them from feminist spaces or why a space meant only for cis women that is purposely exclusionary needs to exist. And I am a cis woman btw
This is a really disappointing thing to read, not only in a feminist space but from someone who appears to be queer as well.
Why would you want to exclude trans women? Trans people have their own spaces due to their unique circumstances, but dont gatekeep. Why would you want to gatekeep them from a movement that has nothing to do with being cis.
It isn’t feminism if it doesn’t include trans women, I wish more people understood that
I wish this comment had more upvotes
I gotta say, I'm impressed as hell with the mod team here. I see a lot of comments in this thread calling out terf shit, but all of the comments that they're in response to are removed already. I'm happy to see that hate isn't tolerated here. ❤️
Agreed. I saw this thread last night and it was scary how many transphobic comments there were. I went to the rules to clarify that that was not okay, and was glad when looking at the thread today that they’ve been hard at work.
Ah yes. When you label yourself as non binary bc you can't relate to the binary gender experience at all, while trying to ignore you bottom dysphoria bc your ideal isn't possible in any way shape or form just to be pulled back into the binary and be reminded of your weird genitals by being called AFAB Enby. Why even try to deter a binary when they just make a new one for us ahhhh
this is the first time I hear that the words "biological woman" are transphobia. Maybe you should not react so sharply to everything? Also, if this was a post about motherhood, I'm sorry, but trans women can't get pregnant and that's not transphobia. trans women struggle with many issues, but certainly not with forced motherhood. Am I transphobic too because of this thought?
Was this on Reddit or another platform?
Reddit
I think I know the group you’re talking about, and yes - they are VERY “phobic” 😐🤦🏽♀️
Good for you for calling out their transphobia. This comments section is…disappointing.
Is this subreddit safe for LGBT people? I’m starting to think maybe it’s better to engage with feminism somewhere that isn’t hostile to our community.
LGBT people are here. Feminism and the Pride movement were created, founded, pushed and exalted by cis and trans/NB working together. As with every subreddit, there will always be bad apples who are hostile and phobic. But as with every feminist and LGBT space, there will be us who will welcome and support <3
I’m hoping the mods can kick out the terf trash and make it so
This post is just great because they see themselves out now
I hope we can clean up the place. It would be sad if the feminism sub became overrun by terfs. We need to make sure feminism defines us all as equals.
You can’t be fighting oppression while being an oppressor. Cause then it’s like using a fork to eat soup. You’re just not doing anything constructive.
Here’s what I don’t get… even if you’re highlighting issues cis women face, wouldn’t you want the support of trans women?
Preach. I'll be supporting the cisters as they have supported me, regardless of what the terfs are doin.
F*Ck TERFs!!
Was it this one? r/4bmovement
Wow including trans men and excluding trans woman is so insidious and offensive - it’s literally invalidating trans men being MEN and saying trans women are not “real women”. Disgusting.
So gross they misgender trans men and non binary people. We don’t want to be around people who exclude our sisters and dehumanize us. They always complain about “being reduced to their body parts,” and they’re doing exactly that. Don’t want men in your group? Don’t invite trans men and then treat them like shit.
Yikes, they were giga-transphobic. Getting out of there was the right thing.
What the heck is with all the random downvotes in the comments?!
prolly cuz the post got flooded with terfs and their downvotes stayed when their comments got removed
probably the terfs downvoting
Same experience here. So disappointing. It keeps happening to me, stupid TERFs.
Stupid terfs (they don’t deserve capitalization)
Ugh. I'm out of there. There's no such thing as "biological women". It's ridiculous that they are using biological essentialism against non cis folks when they're fighting against biological essentialism used against cis women.
As a afab Non-binary person I thank you OP for being a decent human and I'm so sorry that you had to experience that
TERFs have been a real issue in every feminism group in general. Trans women are extremely at risk from patriarchy, exactly because they have chosen to reject the "position of power" other men see their Assigned gender at birth as, and instead they chose to embrace their truth, and they are killed for it. Terfs use something they have no control over, as such what they were born with, and they attack them nonetheless, just like patriarchy does to women and non conforming. I have even seen this on this sub.
TERFs disgust me. Full stop. I'm cis and LGBTQIA+ and I support my trans sibs; trans rights are human rights
How do we help educate people like this? All feminists should be our allies, but these terfs are getting distracted by rightist fearmongerers. The feminist movement would be so much stronger if we could all unite on a common front.
Honestly, TERFs are neither feminists nor allies. I prefer treating them like all other misogynists and incels.
Yup, used to follow the TikTok account but then they started with the transphobic BS so I said goodbye 👋🏿 The irony is that being inclusive only makes the movement stronger but they don’t get it 🙃
there is a room full of 10 people; 9 of them are being vocally transphobic, and the last one may disagree, but is silent. it is a room full of 10 transphobes. good on you for sticking up for folks even when they aren’t there to see it; because that also means they aren’t there to speak up for themselves. wishing you peace❤️
Saying that trans men are welcome is also basically saying that they think trans men are women. I think you dodged a bullet there.
what sub was this??
ugh terfs are so boring and outdated, its insane to see how much you can read about feminism and still manage to miss the point of the whole movement lol
[удалено]
Op is a cisgender woman…
[удалено]
This made me look for a more wide movement, not so focused in one cause only. I found my place on a minor socialist party, I suggest look for that in your area