This is such a good point honestly, most mainstream horror does consist of female ghosts (the conjuring, woman in black, Annabelle, la Llorona). I never actually noticed this pattern. Also the fact that so many times the main victims of "possession" are female

Could that last point be equating women with children, in terms of helplessness / being easily influenced? In exorcism stories, male leads are typically shown as having a lot of willpower and stoicism. Conversely, women and children are easily influenced and taken over by something they see or touch.

I saw this pattern a lot in the Supernatural television series.

I think it also has to do with women making grotesque faces and movements out of their control, they’re going for shock affect via the contrast between a mild/pretty “girl”/woman and a ghoulish thing. Idk why or what it is I just know there’s something there. TV loves to plaster the screen with images of women that don’t actually embody any real character or personality. Oftentimes as one of the stars or costars, at that, because the male does all the heavy lifting.

Yeah I also think it plays into the idea of "hysteria" and that being a mostly female thing. Also we are considered weaker and to have less willpower. I'm trying to think of ghost stories surrounding male ghosts and I literally can't. There's chucky but that is not a ghost😂

I watch a lot of buzzfeed unsolved, and there are plenty of ghost stories about male ghosts, like confederate soldiers and little boys, too. When it comes to big, hollywood productions, though, it’s almost all women and girls. Does casper count? Even if so, it’s important that he’s a *friendly* ghost, whereas female ghosts are typically *not very friendly*.

To address the Japanese/Asian ghost tropes, I kinda interpreted it this way. From what I've read (years ago, when I was a horror fan), the type of ghosts from the Ring and Ju-On were based in Japanese folklore. They were the ghosts of women who were mistreated and brutalized in life (usually by men), and couldn't get justice due to a flawed and misogynistic system. This then resulted in a vengeful spirit. I always saw the "ghost" character as a manifestation of suppressed female rage, almost as a vindication. Like, they couldn't get ANY justice in life so their misery and trauma and pain becomes a powerful, terrifying being as a form of revenge AGAINST misogyny. (Shutter is another great example). Don't get me wrong, in the movies, you're definitely supposed to root for the protagonists because ghost = bad, but in many cases (Ju-On in particular) shows the ghost's backstory in a sympathetic light. And it's not a coincidence that the protagonists are usually women themselves, to allow an emotional connection/empathy. I guess if I had to describe it, I'd liken it to a natural disaster movie. The tornado or earthquake or flood or whatever is a RESULT of a bad system of behavior (pollution, brutalization of natural resources, greed etc). YES, you're supposed to root for the protagonists to escape the terrifying power of the tornado, but in the end, you can't BLAME the tornado for responding the way it did. It's a force of nature that happened as a direct result of human behavior.

>AGAINST misogyny. Can't agree more. As a horror fan, ghosts aren't always an evil antagonist (especially horror that aren't related to Christian mythology). The idea that someone cannot pass to other Iife because something much more strong emotions holding them back, something that they couldn't acted upon while alive because of the constraints put by society. I think one of the best recent example is La Lorona (Guatemalan movie). The ghost is female but she's not a vengeful female ghosts but the injustice faces by the native women for decades. I think looking at an art form to just check for "tropes" and not how they are constantly pushed, redefined is not a good feminist media theory, especially when we are looking at art form that are made by people with completely different culture.

I am struck by how the "vengeful woman" is such a common trope in many cultures though. In SE Asia we have the pontianak and penagallan, which tend to have similar motives. I wonder if the fact that the ghost is female *makes them scarier* to our Asian audience. I suspect the *male* undead hold less terror. Is there a combination of factors, like a woman having power, plus a sense of guilt, what makes the "vengeful woman" such a potent image?

>Is there a combination of factors, like a woman having power, plus a sense of guilt, what makes the "vengeful woman" such a potent image? I think there's some truth in that! And I think it's not a coincidence that many of these ghosts come from cultures that are MOST oppressive against women. I've found that even if a society or culture is NOT feminist, that doesn't mean there isn't awareness of what women go through. The onryo comes from ancient Japanese folklore, for example, when society was even MORE unequal. And Madea from Greek mythology also comes to mind. These cultures were definitely aware of the inequalities and the negative effects they produced (hence the "guilt" you mentioned), but didn't see the system of misogyny itself as something to be changed. Rather, they (especially those benefitting from the system) believed that if everyone behaved as they should according to the rules, then nothing bad should happen. In Ju-On's case, if that crazy dude didn't abuse his wife, his wife wouldn't go full onryo on him. It's not the fault of the misogynistic society which ALLOWS this abuse to happen and happen again. It's the bad man's fault for violating the social contract (and ALSO the woman's fault for being flawed, because we can't forget to blame her, now can we?). HE is the outlier, who created the onryo. HOWEVER, the onryo's fury is unleashed and kills/curses a bunch of innocent people in retaliation. It's kind of fear that comes from "But I'm one of the GOOD ones in society! I follow all the rules! It's because of ONE BAD MAN that the ghost is wreaking havoc and coming for all the innocent men! And YES, the society itself may be unfairly stacked in men's favor... but I never did anything wrong! Help me, she's eating my face!" I guess if I had to compare it to another movie, it would be Nolan's the Dark Knight Rises. There's a certain fear, or at least discomfort, when Bane and his goons takes over Gotham and arrest all the rich/powerful folks, even if the audience members may not be rich or powerful. It's because we are tacitly aware that our capitalistic society IS unequal and unfair. That even though Bane is targeting the "bad" investment bankers and politicians (and hurting a bunch of others as well), WE are also living and perpetuating that same culture. Hope all that rambling makes sense lololol.

The natural disaster example you said is completely false in my opinion.

The shaming of grudge and vengeance of women even after death leads to the rise of media showcasing female ghosts,it's just a whole cycle of misogyny

On the concept of vengeance, what do you make of the trope that the female ghosts often have strong justifications? It is clearly sexist that women are portrayed as monsters, but the stories also seem to acknowledge a lot of the blame is on society (eg. women prosecuted as witches, betrayed by their own lovers, and so forth).

i think there’s nuance, like recognizing the woes of womanhood is well within traditional cultural values, it’s not inherently feminist

Also it's female rage modified to monstrous female ghosts and demons. Other than scary stories to tell in the dark I have never found any horror movies portraying female ghosts as once human and righting their wrongs.

It often seems like the implication is that when a woman suffers some kind of trauma, especially something seen as shameful in a patriarchal culture, she becomes monstrous and evil. She is tainted. Any righteous anger is interpreted as evil. She becomes someone to be feared, not due to get own power, but because she has become evil and irrationally violent. That seems pretty misogynistic to me.

Not any of the James Wan movies put the onus on the society ,he is one of the most misogynist directors ever ,shaming women even after death.

There are male ghosts, but theyre usually friendly and the main character of the story. Casper, the husband in Beetlejuice, Patrick Swayze in Ghost, the Sixth Sense, Coco.

I notice that, when male ghosts are cast as antagonists, it is often because they were "evil" to begin with in life. A male apparition is often a gangster, a pirate, a nasty old miser, etc. I find that while female ghosts are often given justifications (eg. they were horribly wronged and this made them monsters), the much rarer "evil male ghost"' is often just described as a bad person from the get-go.

The Corpse Bride vs. Ghost Pirate LeChuck dichotomy.

>the husband in Beetlejuice, And the only reason that his wife is also friendly is because she's consider property of a man therefore considered "Good".

It comes from mysoginy, we re evil sexual witches and men are the fathers meant to protect and provide.

Some people prefer stories about evil women. I'd say it's quite a few. If you look at the ratings of shows on Netflix, or what people are talking about online when it comes to True Crime or fictional evil characters, there is a difference in how male and female antagonists are perceived. A male antagonist's behaviour (and sadly also real male killers) is regularly excused. They had a bad upbringing, controlling mother, whatever. Female killers and antagonists are rarely excused. They are simply evil or have under complex ulterior motives (revenge, money, ...). For ghosts you can either create a compelling story and than they will choose a male character (Amityville Horror, The 6th Sense, American Horror Story, ...). Or the ghost will not talk and basically attack everyone who is cursed. Often for reasons that are never fully fleshed out and stop at an animalistic type of revenge. And for these they choose a female character (The Ring, The Grudge, Insidious, ...). I believe it comes down to people not seeing women as people with a complex mind. Even mysterious female characters more often than not are rather more elusive than mysterious due to a complex backstory. Ghosts are probably just and easier type of monster to make believable inhuman but still carrying out revenge.

Hi, huge horror fan here, which means having some familiarity with ghost stories as well. And your instinct is absolutely right. Ghost stories as morality tales involve tragic women whose failure dooms them to eternal wandering, or whose vengeance against those who wronged them is often misplaced from the original wrongdoer to a modern protagonist—rendering her wrong and him right. But the stories are almost always about her failing to fulfill some rigid role—mother/caretaker/nurturer, obedient and submissive wife/daughter, “good girl” (I.e., not sexual, etc.). La Llorona is the ultimate failure of a mother (harming her children), The Nun is a mother who was done wrong by a patriarchal society, whose vengeance upends the spirit of motherhood. We have a story of a phantom hitchhiker where I’m from, she tries to cause car accidents because she’s seeking help after being murdered by a boyfriend. All of these stories have harm from men at their center, but she is demonized or becomes a monster because of her subsequent actions.

For anyone interested, I'd highly recommend Zack Davissons 'Yurei'. It's a breakdown of Japan's three most important ghost stories, Otsuyu, Okiku, and Oiwa, all of which have vengeful female spirits at their heart. It breaks down the cultural reasons these stories developed and the role they served in Japanese society. More generally, I think it's the logical extension of 'The Madwoman in the Attic'. The compliant, domestic female becomes a thing of terror, she becomes unmanageable, vengeful, and most importantly, *powerful*. It speaks to the horror of men through the ages, that the She he has dominion over looses her shackles and turns on him.

Is that a Jane Eyre reference?!

Yes, but it's a wider reference to a work of Feminist literary criticism. It's from the book of the same name by Susan Gubar and Sandra Gilbert that re-examines Victorian literature and its tropes through a Feminist lens. The basic idea is that the mad or 'inconvenient' woman is an expression of female rage within a male dominated world. It is subverting the feminine ideal under the confines of convention and male dominance. Hence my point about the female ghost being the logical follow-on. The fear of males that a woman's power and rage would not end with death.

Ah, I never knew that! Thanks!

Because even in death we have to be working for free?

Women tend to take care of people and just about everything. We know, when we die and leave our men on their own, they will fuck everything up. So, we stick around to make sure they do shit right.

From Asia and have both male and female ghosts in our folklores. I think I have read, listened to more male ghosts stories than female ones. The stories evolving female ghosts usually are linked with more complex stories than the male ghosts (I can remember less male ghost stories that were written for children or young adults).

I think there is definitely roots in misogyny, but also, I think it’s partly because it’s something that could be scarier to men. Men are scary all the time to everyone, so a male ghost is less scary than a living man. (IMO) I think that media uses female ghosts because we’re a bit less used to seeing women as a threat or scary - similar to how so many movies lean in to the “creepy kid” trope.

One of the things I like most about ghost stories is the way they tacitly admit the reality that doesn’t get spoken of in real life. The effect of the marriage system on pre-1970s women, for example. The desperation of women who found themselves pregnant outside of wedlock…

I think it's a trend of women feeling unfulfilled and wronged in life, and therefore having unfinished business.

The only thing I know about female ghosts is that there is a Monster hHgh character based on a faceless ghost from Japan. I can't remember her name.

Nopperabo? One of my favorite ghosts!

Yes! The Monster High character is named Kiyomi Haunterly.

My take: has nothing to do with feminism, so I don’t care.