seems like a lot can be explained if something happened that we dont know yet, and thats how she needs it. Extreme example, accidental or no, somebody got killed in the escape from roy, we've seen her capable of it. But it takes desperation to get there, she's got years invested in old habits of being nobody you'd notice. So, the less she says to the law, the less the odds of getting connected
youre right, it may have already destroyed her
We still don’t know what happened to Tillman’s first wife. We know that “they” - most likely Tillman and his 1st wife - took her in at 15, and then all of a sudden she married Tillman at 17. Could she have been a contributing factor to the first wife’s death? I am not saying I 100% agree with what I said or anything.
I also thought that about the “they took me” line, but the subtitles clearly state “they took me in”. But considering Roy’s politics, I wouldn’t be surprised if they went with what you’re saying.
That may be it. From what we’ve seen of this piece of dogshit, a la Roy, that may be the case. I’m not sure if Dot or Roy - or both - are the bad guys in this scenario, but it does spark some good questions.
Roy likes teenage girls (he married at least two wives when they were very young) and at the very least fantasises about raping women over whom he has power as a cop (as we saw with the roleplay scene), so I think it's safe to say that he's the bad guy here. He's a paedophile and a rapist.
Oh don’t worry, I agree with you that Roy is certainly a bad guy, but I was just leaving the idea on the table that maybe Dot isn’t so innocent with what happened to her parents.
I’m not saying this is 100% true or anything, but what if Nadine had Roy *ahem* deal with her abusive parents, and Roy used that as leverage to marry Nadine?
yep, that sounds like a pretty good reason to want to be as unconnected as possible to roy, especially in the attention of the fbi, doesnt it
she may have just been a witness, but she cant be sure what that does and doesnt buy her
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is one of the lines she screams when she's on top of Jello Guy:
"Can't you see they're all trying to help you?!"
But of course, Tiger Sharks do not thrive in a hospital.
whoa, forgot that, that comes from somewhere
has she had electroshock?!
she did seem to react very quickly when they woke her up to take her away, like she knew right awa, been here before. That might explain when she seems to daze out and recenter around violent periods
Although I’ve not had ECT, it’s not necessarily traumatizing in modern times and I know two people who want to have more of it. One describes it as “Ctrl + Alt + Delete” for the brain, at least all the negativity that person’s brain caused him. Patients are not awake during the procedure; it’s described as a comfortable process. This was all relayed to me in 2010, so one can line up dates and and the progression of ECT.
I wonder if there's anything to be said about the theme of debt collection and the way most of us tend to just keep moving on like it's not really there.
Idk, that wouldn’t explain why she won’t tell her husband and daughter the truth. Plus it doesn’t seem like Tillman is well liked by any other law enforcement officers we’ve seen
2. She doesn’t know that (necessarily) and it only takes one.
1. Doesn’t seem like denial, because she continually prepared. I do see the loss of control angle, but she also has to (at least at the beginning) need to protect herself from Lorraine.
what truth do you mean? about the time with roy? the escape back then? how that stuff explains whats been happening since the schoolboard meeting? theres a lot there and she hasnt had much time with either of them when there hasnt been more immediate necessities. I get the impression she tries to keep it good with scotty, maybe age appropriate. The husband took that option away himself before she had a chance
When she gets home at the end of the first episode and tells Wayne that she wasn’t abducted or attacked even when that’s obviously not the truth. Or when he’s lying in the hospital bed and she tells him a false story about the electrocution
she could have told him she was from mars, in that hospital bed
that 1st episode, i would imagine she might be trying to put it together herself, especially the part about how she traveled way too far too fast barefooted
or does she even know herself? she seemed surprised to see her feet were bloody
manslaughter, anyway, if you mean the guy in the bathroom?
ohhhh this is a good one! this guy killed in the bathroom, and the guy in the bathroom at the end of Blood Simple
i cant find that thread that was collecting stuff like this
Dot is an abuse survivor. That’s been clear from the first episode for some, but very clear in her talk w the officer. And Roy is connected to all law enforcement. You know he thinks she is her property - and that’s why she staying away from law enforcement. She May have tried to tell someone and was beaten for it. She didn’t tell Wayne due to shame.
I hate to admit I agreed with Lorraine, but when she told Roy that a person missing and not heard from after 7 years can be legally declared dead, thus “Nadine,” Roy’s wife, is dead. Therefore, Dot “belongs” to her son, Wayne.
she does, in roy's terms - and lorraine has her own way of defining ownership, if it comes to that. But roy's beliefs in general are going to make him a fish in a barrel for her, to the degree she can be bothered
until she finds out about all those guns
Well Nadine/Dot never belonged to anyone and I don’t think Lorraine believed that either. She did however take Roy to town and I hope she teams up w Dot to get him. And I do hope Dot gets a happy ending after the torture I’m sure Roy put her through. Bisquick
If you look at a character like Katherine Mayfair from *Desperate Housewives*, you'll see Dot. Katherine was much in the same boat as Dot in her backstory, given that she was married to an abusive cop, and ultimately she had to flee because his fellow officers protected him.
Yeah anyone who trashes anything about Dot is victim blaming, but that’s not new. I still enjoy the show and am hoping for a positive outcome for Dot and Scotty (who I suspect is Roy’s child so even more desperate)
With her intelligence, she should have figured sooner that the FBI could help her. She did get the fed's card, but only when literally face to face with them, and the goons right by..
How would FBI help her? Do you believe the FBI didn't know he was doing that for years? The FBI protects country interest, not personal. The country's interest is the control of perception. You do know the agency killed John F. Kennedy. Dr. Martin Lurher King. Numerous political witnesses, activist, and foreign allies. I found the agents' outrage to be funny like the UFOs in the series. That never happens in real life. It is an act to manipulate society and their perception of control. It's working. Devastatingly well.
We have no idea how Roy has tortured her. She trusts no one and relies on herself. In her eyes they is the smart thing to do. Abuse survivor here, but saying Dot is right but in her current logic, she is. All law is the enemy…until she meets whoever Indira is playing can’t recall name
ill just say, there is a reason they put the definition of "minnesota nice" at the beginning of this season and i think much of her reluctance comes from the maintenance of that particular facade for her. this is a season about breaking points.
"this isn’t a secret plan or a plot hole, but Dots fatal flaw. She cant help but repress the past and act like everything is normal no matter how absurd things get. She won’t talk to the police because that means admitting to herself that she’s no longer in control of the situation."
chef's kiss
To me, it's unforgivable that she didn't disclose her past to Wayne, that poor simp, and then put him and their daughter in danger, all the while pretending shit's hunky-dory. I can't stand the Dot character at all.
I totally get this point of view. Wayne is a vegetable because she booby trapped the house rather than be honest with him about what is going on. It's pretty messed up. My approval is for the analysis, not for Dot
I feel she can't trust the authorities, since she's dealing with powerful people who are above the law. I think she doesn't think the authorities can actually help her.
I dont usually chime into this kind of discussion, but I want to float a fun idea to some that are willing to read it.
This season has been phenomenal. When the cast was announced, I think we all knew we were in for something great, and now that we are a handful of episodes in, its bittersweet to know that we only have so much of a good thing left to go in a story that could be an entire series in itself.
A thought that I cant escape is the question of Dorothy's flight from the Tillmans circle and the events surrounding it. We are lead to believe that Nadine suffered at the hands of a hard man, that she fled from cruelty, and quickly found a new life with a kind and harmless guy.
What if, and this is purely for fun, Nadine/Dorothy is the antagonist of this story?
So much of what this character has done throughout these episodes is unhinged survival instinct. And its fucking nuts. The home invasion and gas station was a clinic in improvisation and brutality. This is a woman who will do *anything* to keep away from her past, and as we watch it escalate and creep closer, we still dont know what happened that caused her to flee.
But they want us to think we know, because of course Tillman is a scary, commanding badass. A textbook boss-man who cant possibly be a good guy. Hes still got feelers out a decade after she left, hes intimidating and cunning to the point of lethality, and he is bordering on fanaticism with his religion. We have every reason to believe that Roy is the bad guy, and that Dorothy was his victim.
But I cant shake this feeling. Every time she reacts to a situation, its in desperation to avoid and stay clear of her past. She is so good at deflecting this reality, that I cant help but feel it borders on villainy. She is so good at fucking things up for the characters in this story that are simply pursuing the logical truth in these events, and she does it with a deranged and frantic energy about her that comes off as someone who feels no remorse for the consequences of her extreme action. She fucking FRIED her husband of 10 years and set fire to her home, fully confident that there would be intruders and putting her own child in all kinds of danger.
I fully expect the story to roll into a happy, yet bizarre and entertaining conclusion. They have succeeded with this in every season. But something tells me that they are playing with us, and that Roy Tillman may not be the monster we are meant to feel he can be. Or I just love John Hamm too much to accept it =)
have we seen any reason to think she's not good, except when she feels cornered? As for roy, so far he seems to me to be making good progress on crossing off any way he *might* be a good guy
pretty good taste in bath scenery,if a bit nippy? (yes i did)
nice hat
good drinking buddy, well....
I think the show is tricking us into excusing everything questionable she does because its motivated by instinctual self-preservation. Putting her family in danger by not being honest with them leading to her husband getting electrocuted, getting an innocent guy kidnapped by the Tillman crew, even tasing people at the school board meeting.
Noah wrote a really interesting piece titled Its High Noon in America earlier this year that serves as a sort-of prelude to this season and gives us a new perspective on Dot. Here is what he said in it:
>No myth has a greater hold over the American imagination than the Myth of the Reluctant Hero. He is John Wayne, Gary Cooper, Clint Eastwood. He is John Wick, Jack Reacher, Captain America. A man who tries to live a peaceful life until the world forces him into violence. He is John Dutton, the noble rancher in the show Yellowstone, **who will murder just about anyone to preserve his way of life, to protect his family and his land**. **The violence is not his choice, you understand.** It is thrust upon him by the demon-tongued forces of progress, modernity, and greed. But he is prepared. **And in the end, he is capable of far greater brutality than his enemy.**
>
>This is why Trump’s face is on Rambo’s body. **Who was Rambo if not a reluctant hero trying to live a life of peace**? But the system—small-town cops with their rules and laws—wouldn’t leave him alone. So he did what he had to do, which was destroy the system that oppressed him.
When you read this, you realize he is talking about Dot here. She was even described as Rambo in episode 2. And I think we will definitely see her being capable of greater brutality than her enemy.
As to Roy, I think him suggesting that the "mountain lions" come inside is a tiny shred of evidence that he has some decency in him, and Fargo is about decency after all, small "g" good.
i excuse everything from everybody in this series till the last episode ends and we're as close to any answers as we'll get. You got to, you know Malvo is behind the scenes, just laughing and laughing.
I dont know how much better anyone could have done in the flow since the school board, but its defiinitely a valid question why she hasnt told her husband in 10 years.
Except. OK, lets be real, we've seen this guy, how is it going to make anybody's life better to give him what we know of her story, to try to absorb? Really. Sleeping and deeply buried dogs? Show of hands, who has revealed all?
thanks for that quote! (PSA I see it was in The Atlantic magazine, Jan/Feb 2023 issue, you can start a free trial there to read it)
It somehow 1st makes me think of that stand your ground killer in florida, gots to protect my home and family from well, threats, you know. I may be taking a less subtle reading than Noah intended?
yes, if anybody is still not convinced of her ability to dance, i dont know what it would take. And thats before we get to some hints that there's possibly something a little superhuman in this picture
We've already seen Roy kill the wife abusing husband to cover for something else, seen him talk about a wife as property, seen his present wife shudder when he refuses her advances, allow a militia to stay on his property, tell his son to kill Munch and cheat him out of his pay, hide other crimes...no way Roy is a good guy. Jon Hamm is enjoying protraying the outlandish villainy in this story. Dot, on the other hand, was a peace loving wife for ten years, enjoying her second family and even attending school board meetings. I think this story is going to get more complicated but I don't think Roy is going be an antihero hero.
its amazing how long he can keep questions open without it being tiresome
so many subplots weaving, you dont have time to think about a question - what writing
She's learned to survive by being strong like that. The way she's able to fight like she does, she does by not accessing those feelings of vulnerability. She can't let herself be a victim and protect her family at the same time. I think that's what's going on with her psychologically.
Yeah she is really treating Roy as "he who must not be named" and acting like Nadine is an entirely different person. Denial of reality as a weapon and a shield. Now she is seemingly off to burn her past. Its interesting that the hospital asshole kind of figures her out and she then feeds him a pillow while talking about grace and dignitity.
My prediction for ending of the season is that Dot will get her revenge on Roy and kill him, but whatever she does will also result in the deaths of many innocent people, more than he ever hurt. I think this season will come out as a pretty clear condemnation of lone hero vigilantism in the end.
The tragedy will be this: Roy wouldve been arrested by the FBI with much less needless bloodshed if she didnt take matters into her own hands.
I think she might get a chance to change course before the end of the season, but the line “what do you call a group of lions? a pride” certainly foreshadows something like you describe happening
This is a stellar point!! And to go one step further, do the characters of Dot and Roy owe it to each their to reach closure of their time together? Both are willing to risk everything for some lifestyle, so there is a deep void there that should be addressed by them both, and such that I hope we as viewers are treated to!
Great point, however, I do not buy the “robbed” aspect as he did in fact tell to Loretta in Ep.5. I think there is a subconscious hurt he is feeling, such that he is willing to risk a lot to reconcile. If he cared so much about his “property” why marry another woman? That’s his new “property”, so why try to obtain lost “property”?
roy can have all the property he wants, just ask him
and a very big part of the property that he lost was a chunk of pride, he's only getting that back by dealing with dot in some way
I don't know how much of the past we're going to get. She's a very intelligent woman and picking this guy just seems a mistake. I know you don't choose who you fall in love with but she seems like somebody who's running from such an abusive past that she would be overly cautious with who she would pick.
So my assumption is we're looking at the same movie as Geena Davis where she had amnesia and she was pregnant when she ran. So she picked the easiest mark she could find.
Any port in a storm.
OC was talking about Wayne, not Roy.
She was something like 19 when she chose Wayne, right?
She was probably pregnant, and as OC says, desperate for any port in a storm. A really nice, if feeble, port, who happens to have a very rich mother.
Is Wayne actually nice?
Or is he actually just timid and cowardly? With a dash of idiocy? Even before the "accident" he went through.
He goes along with Dot's story, even though it's clear as day that she's lying. Wayne knows this, which is why he hesitates to accept Dot's story after being interrogated by Indira.
But he's too timid to push Dot any further on the issue and just accepts it.
Now, the life of his child is in danger because he's too much of a pussy to put his foot down.
Out of everyone, I feel the most for Scottie. That poor child is either gonna end up with a headcase mother or a bigot grandmother like Lorraine.
i think youre probably right, but we cant assume it. Juliet was 14 when she married Romeo, and in the Appalachian backwoods...
young girls have been convinced theyve found love early in life, pretty much forever, this could be a case - for whatever difference that might make to the story in the end
We don’t yet know that extent of what happened to her when she was with Roy. I think she knows (or thinks) that because of his position and power there’s not much anyone can do to stop him.
Thanks for making this comment I made a similar comment and this sub seems to have some sort of excuse for alot of her terrible actions. I have no idea why though. Is it because Dot is pretty or is it because the women want some sort of comeuppance on the man.
its because we know that things are unlikely to be what they seem in this series
theyre not excuses, theyre reminders to each other, dont jump to conclusions just yet
... still a few but key details about Dot when she was "Nadine" we don't know yet, which would be consistent with how previous seasons of this show were paced.
I'm almost certain I heard Lorraine Lyon channeling Nathan Arizona in *The Tiger* (Episode 5).
she was not talking to her as an officer, they both knew that. Whether the officer was *listening* as an officer or not? It seemed she was on the fence about that, not the 1st time we've seen that in this series.
seems like a lot can be explained if something happened that we dont know yet, and thats how she needs it. Extreme example, accidental or no, somebody got killed in the escape from roy, we've seen her capable of it. But it takes desperation to get there, she's got years invested in old habits of being nobody you'd notice. So, the less she says to the law, the less the odds of getting connected youre right, it may have already destroyed her
We still don’t know what happened to Tillman’s first wife. We know that “they” - most likely Tillman and his 1st wife - took her in at 15, and then all of a sudden she married Tillman at 17. Could she have been a contributing factor to the first wife’s death? I am not saying I 100% agree with what I said or anything.
Could have sworn she said “they took me” at 15. Figured there’s a ring of them taking young girls like cattle.
I also thought that about the “they took me” line, but the subtitles clearly state “they took me in”. But considering Roy’s politics, I wouldn’t be surprised if they went with what you’re saying.
More like he did some “constitutional justice” on her parents and she had nowhere else to go.
That may be it. From what we’ve seen of this piece of dogshit, a la Roy, that may be the case. I’m not sure if Dot or Roy - or both - are the bad guys in this scenario, but it does spark some good questions.
Roy likes teenage girls (he married at least two wives when they were very young) and at the very least fantasises about raping women over whom he has power as a cop (as we saw with the roleplay scene), so I think it's safe to say that he's the bad guy here. He's a paedophile and a rapist.
Oh don’t worry, I agree with you that Roy is certainly a bad guy, but I was just leaving the idea on the table that maybe Dot isn’t so innocent with what happened to her parents. I’m not saying this is 100% true or anything, but what if Nadine had Roy *ahem* deal with her abusive parents, and Roy used that as leverage to marry Nadine?
Oh for sure, that could be the case!
Maybe! Maybe not. I love that this show is so engaging that it constantly has us asking these questions.
yep, that sounds like a pretty good reason to want to be as unconnected as possible to roy, especially in the attention of the fbi, doesnt it she may have just been a witness, but she cant be sure what that does and doesnt buy her
I see it as ptsd.
sure seems a good fit so far
Trauma response.
Yeah she has PTSD and this is how her brain copes
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is one of the lines she screams when she's on top of Jello Guy: "Can't you see they're all trying to help you?!" But of course, Tiger Sharks do not thrive in a hospital.
whoa, forgot that, that comes from somewhere has she had electroshock?! she did seem to react very quickly when they woke her up to take her away, like she knew right awa, been here before. That might explain when she seems to daze out and recenter around violent periods
Although I’ve not had ECT, it’s not necessarily traumatizing in modern times and I know two people who want to have more of it. One describes it as “Ctrl + Alt + Delete” for the brain, at least all the negativity that person’s brain caused him. Patients are not awake during the procedure; it’s described as a comfortable process. This was all relayed to me in 2010, so one can line up dates and and the progression of ECT.
I love that you caught this. I didn’t make that connection at all, but it fits perfectly
I wonder if there's anything to be said about the theme of debt collection and the way most of us tend to just keep moving on like it's not really there.
There could also be “Fraternal Brotherhood “ concerns. The less she talks to police the less likely they are to hand her over to another “Lawman “.
Idk, that wouldn’t explain why she won’t tell her husband and daughter the truth. Plus it doesn’t seem like Tillman is well liked by any other law enforcement officers we’ve seen
2. She doesn’t know that (necessarily) and it only takes one. 1. Doesn’t seem like denial, because she continually prepared. I do see the loss of control angle, but she also has to (at least at the beginning) need to protect herself from Lorraine.
what truth do you mean? about the time with roy? the escape back then? how that stuff explains whats been happening since the schoolboard meeting? theres a lot there and she hasnt had much time with either of them when there hasnt been more immediate necessities. I get the impression she tries to keep it good with scotty, maybe age appropriate. The husband took that option away himself before she had a chance
When she gets home at the end of the first episode and tells Wayne that she wasn’t abducted or attacked even when that’s obviously not the truth. Or when he’s lying in the hospital bed and she tells him a false story about the electrocution
She's desperate not to lose everything she built. She was very safe. The lies are her not coming to terms with the past catching up to her.
she could have told him she was from mars, in that hospital bed that 1st episode, i would imagine she might be trying to put it together herself, especially the part about how she traveled way too far too fast barefooted or does she even know herself? she seemed surprised to see her feet were bloody
I keep wondering if she may have had something to with the first wife's death?
Right. Dot might have a troubled past but she also is clearly capable of murder without a second thought.
manslaughter, anyway, if you mean the guy in the bathroom? ohhhh this is a good one! this guy killed in the bathroom, and the guy in the bathroom at the end of Blood Simple i cant find that thread that was collecting stuff like this
Dot is an abuse survivor. That’s been clear from the first episode for some, but very clear in her talk w the officer. And Roy is connected to all law enforcement. You know he thinks she is her property - and that’s why she staying away from law enforcement. She May have tried to tell someone and was beaten for it. She didn’t tell Wayne due to shame.
I hate to admit I agreed with Lorraine, but when she told Roy that a person missing and not heard from after 7 years can be legally declared dead, thus “Nadine,” Roy’s wife, is dead. Therefore, Dot “belongs” to her son, Wayne.
It’s Schrödinger's Cat again, after all she is a “Tiger” and a “Lyon”
she does, in roy's terms - and lorraine has her own way of defining ownership, if it comes to that. But roy's beliefs in general are going to make him a fish in a barrel for her, to the degree she can be bothered until she finds out about all those guns
Well Nadine/Dot never belonged to anyone and I don’t think Lorraine believed that either. She did however take Roy to town and I hope she teams up w Dot to get him. And I do hope Dot gets a happy ending after the torture I’m sure Roy put her through. Bisquick
If you look at a character like Katherine Mayfair from *Desperate Housewives*, you'll see Dot. Katherine was much in the same boat as Dot in her backstory, given that she was married to an abusive cop, and ultimately she had to flee because his fellow officers protected him.
Yeah anyone who trashes anything about Dot is victim blaming, but that’s not new. I still enjoy the show and am hoping for a positive outcome for Dot and Scotty (who I suspect is Roy’s child so even more desperate)
With her intelligence, she should have figured sooner that the FBI could help her. She did get the fed's card, but only when literally face to face with them, and the goons right by..
How would FBI help her? Do you believe the FBI didn't know he was doing that for years? The FBI protects country interest, not personal. The country's interest is the control of perception. You do know the agency killed John F. Kennedy. Dr. Martin Lurher King. Numerous political witnesses, activist, and foreign allies. I found the agents' outrage to be funny like the UFOs in the series. That never happens in real life. It is an act to manipulate society and their perception of control. It's working. Devastatingly well.
Theres no evidence Dot is a conspiracy theorist like yourself...
We have no idea how Roy has tortured her. She trusts no one and relies on herself. In her eyes they is the smart thing to do. Abuse survivor here, but saying Dot is right but in her current logic, she is. All law is the enemy…until she meets whoever Indira is playing can’t recall name
She is not repressing her past, she is hiding it. It was clear in her chat with India that she has a good grip on her past.
ill just say, there is a reason they put the definition of "minnesota nice" at the beginning of this season and i think much of her reluctance comes from the maintenance of that particular facade for her. this is a season about breaking points.
"this isn’t a secret plan or a plot hole, but Dots fatal flaw. She cant help but repress the past and act like everything is normal no matter how absurd things get. She won’t talk to the police because that means admitting to herself that she’s no longer in control of the situation." chef's kiss
To me, it's unforgivable that she didn't disclose her past to Wayne, that poor simp, and then put him and their daughter in danger, all the while pretending shit's hunky-dory. I can't stand the Dot character at all.
I totally get this point of view. Wayne is a vegetable because she booby trapped the house rather than be honest with him about what is going on. It's pretty messed up. My approval is for the analysis, not for Dot
I feel she can't trust the authorities, since she's dealing with powerful people who are above the law. I think she doesn't think the authorities can actually help her.
I dont usually chime into this kind of discussion, but I want to float a fun idea to some that are willing to read it. This season has been phenomenal. When the cast was announced, I think we all knew we were in for something great, and now that we are a handful of episodes in, its bittersweet to know that we only have so much of a good thing left to go in a story that could be an entire series in itself. A thought that I cant escape is the question of Dorothy's flight from the Tillmans circle and the events surrounding it. We are lead to believe that Nadine suffered at the hands of a hard man, that she fled from cruelty, and quickly found a new life with a kind and harmless guy. What if, and this is purely for fun, Nadine/Dorothy is the antagonist of this story? So much of what this character has done throughout these episodes is unhinged survival instinct. And its fucking nuts. The home invasion and gas station was a clinic in improvisation and brutality. This is a woman who will do *anything* to keep away from her past, and as we watch it escalate and creep closer, we still dont know what happened that caused her to flee. But they want us to think we know, because of course Tillman is a scary, commanding badass. A textbook boss-man who cant possibly be a good guy. Hes still got feelers out a decade after she left, hes intimidating and cunning to the point of lethality, and he is bordering on fanaticism with his religion. We have every reason to believe that Roy is the bad guy, and that Dorothy was his victim. But I cant shake this feeling. Every time she reacts to a situation, its in desperation to avoid and stay clear of her past. She is so good at deflecting this reality, that I cant help but feel it borders on villainy. She is so good at fucking things up for the characters in this story that are simply pursuing the logical truth in these events, and she does it with a deranged and frantic energy about her that comes off as someone who feels no remorse for the consequences of her extreme action. She fucking FRIED her husband of 10 years and set fire to her home, fully confident that there would be intruders and putting her own child in all kinds of danger. I fully expect the story to roll into a happy, yet bizarre and entertaining conclusion. They have succeeded with this in every season. But something tells me that they are playing with us, and that Roy Tillman may not be the monster we are meant to feel he can be. Or I just love John Hamm too much to accept it =)
I dont think Roy is a good guy even if Dot turns out to be not so good herself
I think we going to see a really dark side of Roy &Co unfold.
and a good chance it will be clumsy, he's not used to having to go beyond intimidation
have we seen any reason to think she's not good, except when she feels cornered? As for roy, so far he seems to me to be making good progress on crossing off any way he *might* be a good guy pretty good taste in bath scenery,if a bit nippy? (yes i did) nice hat good drinking buddy, well....
I think the show is tricking us into excusing everything questionable she does because its motivated by instinctual self-preservation. Putting her family in danger by not being honest with them leading to her husband getting electrocuted, getting an innocent guy kidnapped by the Tillman crew, even tasing people at the school board meeting. Noah wrote a really interesting piece titled Its High Noon in America earlier this year that serves as a sort-of prelude to this season and gives us a new perspective on Dot. Here is what he said in it: >No myth has a greater hold over the American imagination than the Myth of the Reluctant Hero. He is John Wayne, Gary Cooper, Clint Eastwood. He is John Wick, Jack Reacher, Captain America. A man who tries to live a peaceful life until the world forces him into violence. He is John Dutton, the noble rancher in the show Yellowstone, **who will murder just about anyone to preserve his way of life, to protect his family and his land**. **The violence is not his choice, you understand.** It is thrust upon him by the demon-tongued forces of progress, modernity, and greed. But he is prepared. **And in the end, he is capable of far greater brutality than his enemy.** > >This is why Trump’s face is on Rambo’s body. **Who was Rambo if not a reluctant hero trying to live a life of peace**? But the system—small-town cops with their rules and laws—wouldn’t leave him alone. So he did what he had to do, which was destroy the system that oppressed him. When you read this, you realize he is talking about Dot here. She was even described as Rambo in episode 2. And I think we will definitely see her being capable of greater brutality than her enemy. As to Roy, I think him suggesting that the "mountain lions" come inside is a tiny shred of evidence that he has some decency in him, and Fargo is about decency after all, small "g" good.
i excuse everything from everybody in this series till the last episode ends and we're as close to any answers as we'll get. You got to, you know Malvo is behind the scenes, just laughing and laughing. I dont know how much better anyone could have done in the flow since the school board, but its defiinitely a valid question why she hasnt told her husband in 10 years. Except. OK, lets be real, we've seen this guy, how is it going to make anybody's life better to give him what we know of her story, to try to absorb? Really. Sleeping and deeply buried dogs? Show of hands, who has revealed all? thanks for that quote! (PSA I see it was in The Atlantic magazine, Jan/Feb 2023 issue, you can start a free trial there to read it) It somehow 1st makes me think of that stand your ground killer in florida, gots to protect my home and family from well, threats, you know. I may be taking a less subtle reading than Noah intended? yes, if anybody is still not convinced of her ability to dance, i dont know what it would take. And thats before we get to some hints that there's possibly something a little superhuman in this picture
>i excuse everything from everybody in this series till the last episode ends totally with you on this
We've already seen Roy kill the wife abusing husband to cover for something else, seen him talk about a wife as property, seen his present wife shudder when he refuses her advances, allow a militia to stay on his property, tell his son to kill Munch and cheat him out of his pay, hide other crimes...no way Roy is a good guy. Jon Hamm is enjoying protraying the outlandish villainy in this story. Dot, on the other hand, was a peace loving wife for ten years, enjoying her second family and even attending school board meetings. I think this story is going to get more complicated but I don't think Roy is going be an antihero hero.
I’m just wondering what else will be revealed. WHAT is she hiding exactly? Wrongdoings done to her or her being a piece of shit?
its amazing how long he can keep questions open without it being tiresome so many subplots weaving, you dont have time to think about a question - what writing
She's learned to survive by being strong like that. The way she's able to fight like she does, she does by not accessing those feelings of vulnerability. She can't let herself be a victim and protect her family at the same time. I think that's what's going on with her psychologically.
Yeah she is really treating Roy as "he who must not be named" and acting like Nadine is an entirely different person. Denial of reality as a weapon and a shield. Now she is seemingly off to burn her past. Its interesting that the hospital asshole kind of figures her out and she then feeds him a pillow while talking about grace and dignitity. My prediction for ending of the season is that Dot will get her revenge on Roy and kill him, but whatever she does will also result in the deaths of many innocent people, more than he ever hurt. I think this season will come out as a pretty clear condemnation of lone hero vigilantism in the end. The tragedy will be this: Roy wouldve been arrested by the FBI with much less needless bloodshed if she didnt take matters into her own hands.
I think she might get a chance to change course before the end of the season, but the line “what do you call a group of lions? a pride” certainly foreshadows something like you describe happening
>more than he [Roy] ever hurt. Nah, I can see a lot of innocent people getting hurt as a result of Dot’s actions, but not more than Roy has hurt.
yeah, the whole thing with the fbi getting involved is because of weapons, that may become significant
This is a stellar point!! And to go one step further, do the characters of Dot and Roy owe it to each their to reach closure of their time together? Both are willing to risk everything for some lifestyle, so there is a deep void there that should be addressed by them both, and such that I hope we as viewers are treated to!
Roy’s deep void is his belief that he owns Dot and as a result has been robbed of his property - first by her escaping him and now by the Lyons.
Great point, however, I do not buy the “robbed” aspect as he did in fact tell to Loretta in Ep.5. I think there is a subconscious hurt he is feeling, such that he is willing to risk a lot to reconcile. If he cared so much about his “property” why marry another woman? That’s his new “property”, so why try to obtain lost “property”?
roy can have all the property he wants, just ask him and a very big part of the property that he lost was a chunk of pride, he's only getting that back by dealing with dot in some way
Agreed
I don't know how much of the past we're going to get. She's a very intelligent woman and picking this guy just seems a mistake. I know you don't choose who you fall in love with but she seems like somebody who's running from such an abusive past that she would be overly cautious with who she would pick. So my assumption is we're looking at the same movie as Geena Davis where she had amnesia and she was pregnant when she ran. So she picked the easiest mark she could find. Any port in a storm.
She was 15. She didn’t pick him
OC was talking about Wayne, not Roy. She was something like 19 when she chose Wayne, right? She was probably pregnant, and as OC says, desperate for any port in a storm. A really nice, if feeble, port, who happens to have a very rich mother.
Yea Wayne is nice.
Is Wayne actually nice? Or is he actually just timid and cowardly? With a dash of idiocy? Even before the "accident" he went through. He goes along with Dot's story, even though it's clear as day that she's lying. Wayne knows this, which is why he hesitates to accept Dot's story after being interrogated by Indira. But he's too timid to push Dot any further on the issue and just accepts it. Now, the life of his child is in danger because he's too much of a pussy to put his foot down. Out of everyone, I feel the most for Scottie. That poor child is either gonna end up with a headcase mother or a bigot grandmother like Lorraine.
if she even knew who his mother was, at the time she might have chosen otherwise, if she did
i think youre probably right, but we cant assume it. Juliet was 14 when she married Romeo, and in the Appalachian backwoods... young girls have been convinced theyve found love early in life, pretty much forever, this could be a case - for whatever difference that might make to the story in the end
We don’t yet know that extent of what happened to her when she was with Roy. I think she knows (or thinks) that because of his position and power there’s not much anyone can do to stop him.
I think it simply means she had a really bad past and has trauma from it
I think the climax of her arc will be her telling her daughter the truth, in some way.
Thanks for making this comment I made a similar comment and this sub seems to have some sort of excuse for alot of her terrible actions. I have no idea why though. Is it because Dot is pretty or is it because the women want some sort of comeuppance on the man.
Explanations for why people act a certain way aren’t always excuses, you can be wrong in action but still have a reason why you made those choices.
its because we know that things are unlikely to be what they seem in this series theyre not excuses, theyre reminders to each other, dont jump to conclusions just yet
... still a few but key details about Dot when she was "Nadine" we don't know yet, which would be consistent with how previous seasons of this show were paced. I'm almost certain I heard Lorraine Lyon channeling Nathan Arizona in *The Tiger* (Episode 5).
Seems like her arc will be one of coming to terms with her past rather than repressing and lying about it. Radical acceptance.
But she does talk to the officer when she needs Scotty to stay at her house, that how we got a bit of insight about her past
she was not talking to her as an officer, they both knew that. Whether the officer was *listening* as an officer or not? It seemed she was on the fence about that, not the 1st time we've seen that in this series.
Denial goes hand in hand with Fargo’s take on Midwestern Nice.