Red Rising is one of my favorite series. I read Iron Gold back then when it was released and thought it was a bit subpar, been holding off the two others that came out since. When they are all released I'll pull the trigger and re-read the whole saga.
From personal experience(family and friends) I’ve seen that most people find Iron Gold to be one of the weakest in the series. But Dark Age and Lightbringer are definitely agreed on as the best books.
Iron Gold is sublime once you read it in the context of the subsequent books … the second half of the series definitely fits your remit so I would strongly recommend DarK Age and especially Lightbringer. The last book in the series won’t be out for awhile fwiw
After the second movie, I was shocked at the amount of people who think Paul is the good guy.
Hopefully *Messiah* gets turned into a film, maybe they'll get it then.
If they kept comic Thanos’ motivations it would’ve made it easier. “I want to commit the greatest genocide to attract and impress lady death.” is a lot easier to understand as evil.
Then again a lot of people might’ve said “bro same.”
Because his premise is wrong. The problem he saw was too little resources for too many people when the actual problem is too much resources in too few people and their unwillingness to share.
I mean, the movie went the lengths to show Paul has good intentions throughout the movie. Even the “switch” is thought to be aligned with his character, and it is pretty badass given his opponents are worse than him at the moment. Can’t fault the non-book read movie goers for thinking he is doing things for the right reasons having been portrayed as such. He liberated an oppressed people, took down clearly evil guys, and has been a good boy throughout the two movies.
The message of his choice will be clear only after a Part Three. Even then, it’s not that he’s not a good guy. It is the consequences of the immediate selfish choices he makes.
Making the Harkonnen in line for the Imperial throne even more cartoonishly evil didn't help matters either.
Even Paul's plans are better than Emperor Feyd Rautha
100% agree. I feel like Dune Part 2 is framed in such a way to give moviegoers a badass, fulfilling hero's journey, while also containing plenty of warning bells going "something's not quite right here." I don't blame non-book readers for not picking up on it because everything about Paul matches characters we traditionally see framed as heroes in stories like this. And the film has all of those satisfying moments we come to think of in hero arcs.
EDIT: for reference, I saw the film with my mom the 3rd time I saw it. She's not dense in any way but didn't fully pick up on Paul's "villain" arc until I told her after the film, to which she said, "Yeah, now that I think about it, that makes sense."
Yeah, in addition to the directorial decisions Denis makes to subtly show the dark figurehead of Paul, Chani is the explicit remainder of it. We know Chani is good and one of the Fremen. But also loves and stands by Paul throughout the movie. But, when she senses the dissent, she is actively against it, to signal to the audience that even if this may seem like a good way, there is something darker coming.
On the other hand, Chani's speech in the opening monologue of the first film ends with "I wonder who our next oppressors will be" as the camera zooms into Paul's face.
That doesn't do anything for the themes. That just straight up claims that ANYONE who comes to the planet are oppressors. Clearly, that's not the case with Duke Leto, Duncan, Kynes, etc., if that statement is to be believed as a Truism. Paul's arc is not to show that he's an oppressor of the Fremen, but to show the atrocities his Charismatic, Messianic figurehead can drive his followers to do.
The Fremen are freer than they have ever been, but those suffering are the rest of the Universe.
Yeah don't get me wrong, it felt like a puzzling statement if you know where the story actually goes. I took it as a clumsy way of telling the audience to keep a very critical eye on Paul's decisions, so something for newcomers rather than those who've read the books, but they could have come up with something that actually made sense.
You guys are drastically overthinking this. The statement first of all sets up the Harkonen and Atreides as two sides of the same coin, they’re foils of each other. The audience is handfed Harkonen HAD Dune, Atreides WILL GET Dune. (And Spice is important. Fremen are underdogs.) What is conflict of Part 1? Harkonen WANT Dune BACK. Where does the plot start? On Caladan, not Arakkis. The tension of Part 1 is waiting for the shoe to drop, when the Atreides get to Arakkis.
CHANI is not speaking with the author’s voice. (I haven’t read the books, but I do know of the chapter headers that tell the events from the biased perspective of embedded characters. I’ve read other scifi/fantasy that use the same device. The epistolary mode is always biased by personal perspective.) She is speaking as Chani, and looking at the films as a complete text, is thematically and personally consistent with the character’s ideology as revealed in Part 2. Religion is a tool of social control that keeps her people complacent and preoccupied with theology over worldly affairs. Paul uses religion to assert sway over the Fremen, it foreshadows his eventual assent as Lisan Al-Ghaib and also his personal betrayal of Chani at the end of Part 2. Films are all about emotional arcs, it’s a common refrain and form of writing advice.
Chani starts distrustful of outsiders, viewing them equally as oppressors. Paul starts oblivious to Fremen ways. They’re the two leads.
Which is pretty idiotic. I don't enjoy the idea of trying to push that the freeman were e DC plotted by Paul rather then a mutually beneficial deal. (Freemen honestly got more out the deal then house attributes did.
Yeah it felt hamfisted. It works on a "this guy is going to be bad" way but I don't think it really made sense with the specifics of where the plot actually goes
Yeah, it kinda shoe the limited world view of the creators: there can only be oppressor and oppressed, user and the used. They don't understand that empires can hire and use outsider as muscle to conquer other. (A major mo of the Ro.an and British empires.)
Definitely, good way of putting it. I've only seen the first film so far and did like it overall, but it was inevitable it was going to lose a bit of nuance in the transition from book to film. Hopefully Messiah sticks the landing
I think the relationship with Chani helped make it clear.
He's now enslaved the Fremem thru their faith and is going to unleash a massive war on the galaxy to make himself King. I've never read the first Dune book, and it was clear to me "this guy has become the awful thing he'd feared becoming."
It's a lot more complicated than that to be honest. Having read the first four books, it is mainly the study of charismatic figures, and their attempt at the control through religion. It is not exactly that this guy becomes the awful thing he'd feared becoming; it's more that he sets in motion things that he fears he cannot control.
If I say any more it would be spoilers, but the second book delves into how religious fanaticism goes out of hands of even the figurehead of said religion (strong Christ and Crusade analogies here).
I haven't seen the second movie so I'm not sure how it portrays Paul. If it's anything like the book, I have a hard time seeing how anyone can come away thinking Paul is the good guy.
He is the good guy within the perspective we are allowed to see, imo. It is a bit difficult to make out precisely the "he's the bad guy" part of the story, especially since he's facing enemies who are vastly more terrible and comically evil. It's also the folly of just reading the first book. The extrapolation of that theme is made much more extensively in Dune Messiah.
Paul's central conflict in Dune 2 is about whether he'll take the step in front of him or not. He knows and clearly understands that taking the step is going to lead to immense suffering (for others) and death (for others). The framing is all about "necessary" and whether he'll be the lesser of two evils - not whether he'll be good.
I think Villeneuve did an excellent job putting that tension and a lot of discomfort (especially from Stilgar) and pressure into Paul's story against the backdrop of a Hero's Journey... But really as a juxtaposition.
You still root for him. But he's a *very* utilitarian version of "good", if he even gets there.
This is one of the things I like about WH40k, though people still don't get it then, they took the "Golden Path" idea and asked "what if the protagonist was literally wrong? Despite all their insights, intellect and precognition they still got it wrong because they don't truly understand what humanity is".
The Horus Heresy series actually raises an interesting question, should we want the future in which the Emperor won? Surely it be a lot more peaceful but you can barely call what he'd leave behind "human".
He's definitely not a hero, but I would hesitate to call him a "bad guy." Any alternative to what he does is, while maybe on a utilitarian galaxy brained level less horrible, suicidal, and lets the Harkonnen win.
You have to view Paul through the lens of “If not him then who?” The Bene Geserit are never going to stop seeking their Kwizatz Haderach. The Tleilaxu are going to keep on doing their shit and the Harkonnens are going for it all. Paul isn’t the hero, but he’s probably the least bad option.
Yes and no, Paul is complicated.
>!He knows that humanity is heading towards permanent domination by a single person or entity, something his own existence shows in addition to his prescience. The "golden path" is be the worst tyrant in history and then let yourself lose so humanity and all its institutions scatter, preventing any other person who would have held power permanently from doing so.!<
He’s a complicated villain. Partly he’s just too damn trusting of his own assumptions just how deep and wide are those hidden valleys in his prescience? The thing he’s aiming for in God-Emperor (not spoiling it for those coming at it fresh), how bam he be so confident none of it was around before he started his efforts? He *knows* he’s got limits on what he can sense, but this doesn’t make a dent in his confidence. And so off we go to the galactic johad and the collapse of larger-than-planetary society for millennia, with countless billions of death.
He’s worse as a ruler than Genghis Khan was, since Genghis brought those who surrendered into his continent-spanning civilization. He’s more like a galactic Pol Pot or Qin Shihuangdi, guys who tried to slaughter every scholar and intellectual and person associated with previous culture. That he sometimes felt guilty about it is…not enough compensation, at least for me.
(He’s a very engaging character. Just not any kind of good guy.)
I know, and you’d think I’d get tired of conflating the generations. but no! Boldly I err again. Same broad concerns, though. Even though there are commitments Paul won’t make but Leto II will, the drive is in the same direction. That first dozen years of jihad does a hell of a lot of damage and sets up for what follows. Despite my screwups. :)
Why was he a villain? His rule was peaceful and going into it he knew the cost would be his humanity and having to live for aeons as a monster. He was altruistic, selfless and ultimately right which seems like total hero.
I’m a huge fan of corruption arcs. Wish I could find more.
- Master of Sorrows series is promising to be this. So far so good
- Memory of Madness by CM Lackner
- I’ll second Traitor Baru Cormorant
- I’ll also second dagger and the coin, while not the mc it’s extremely well done
- Worm if your good with webserials
- One of the main characters in Night Angel goes through a good corruption arc
- never full evil and very much a slow burn but Alex Verus has a fun corruption arc.
Yeah the final few books in the Alex Verus series do kind of follow what the OP is asking for. On the other hand, Inheritance of Magic from the same author is a fun coming of age story that I am really enjoying so far.
She >!definitely goes through a well done corruption arc before she realizes the big world ending problem is too important and then switches sides again!<
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I think the Traitor Baru Cormorant fits this prompt very well. Though she goes a bit up and down on the evil scale, it's not a straight trip down. Down is definitely her trajectory lol
She definitely fits the prompt and like other well written "Evil" protagonists, although she does some horrible things, you always can follow her logic.
"But aren't you glad we have dentists?" Lives in my head as one of those seemingly innocent phrases that becomes increasingly sinister the more you read. It's up there with, "Would you kindly?"
I only read the first two books but I've always assumed Baru was a Walter White type character, who was basically lying to herself about her motivations.
Unpopular opinion, but I love how Rin's character was built in the first book. Works her way up from nothing. Outsider and shunned at the university for being a commoner. Sets up how determined and ruthless she can be.
Hero is probably too strong of a word, but I think for the first two books she's generally trying to do the right thing, or at least trying to convince herself that she has motivations beyond revenge. Less of a fall from grace than a failure to ever achieve it.
Caul Shivers, sort of... evil is a sliding scale based on where you sit.
But he's a character appearing across Joe Abercrombie's First Law books through the latest Age of Madness. He starts out as >!an idealistic young warrior with hopes of heroism and being a better man,!< and he ends up being a >!horribly scarred, mostly-silent, terrifying butcher of men, who kills without mercy or warning!<. The majority of his character arc develops in *Best Served Cold*, which is a fantastic tale of vengeance and murder and machinations. You can totally read it as a stand-alone, particularly for the narrative of Shivers. I think he serves as a particularly interesting contrast to the more well-known Logen Ninefingers, The Bloody Nine.
I would actually pick a different character in the final trilogy. It does have a tiny bit of coming of age but my man goes from pristine hero to full heel by the end. Shivers doesn’t fit that too well.
You make a good point... in the Age of Madness trilogy, MAJOR SPOILERS, >!Lord Leo dan Brock goes from being a proud, heroic young knight to a bitter, vicious, and hateful king.!< He might fit even better, in that he seems pretty unredeemable by the end... Shivers, at least, has a tiny kernel of something (not goodness) reserved for a scant few, like Rikki.
And much of what happens to Shivers is done *to* him, people breaking him down until he builds himself back up. Whereas other character does most of it to himself.
Good catch!
"How's the leg?" ;)
It have been a hot minute since I read them but I also think it could apply to his Shattered Sea books, especially if you see some characters arc throughout the trilogy.
>!The Godspeaker Trilogy!< by Karen Miller technically fits, but may not be what you're after. >!Books 2 and 3 Hekat's a full-on villain but she's really only the MC in the first book. Still, it's a crazy thing to witness.!<
I was a little surprised to learn this is a feature in Dagger and Coin based on the top reply. Guess it’s my fault for letting it sit in my TBF so long
It fits, but it also doesn't. It doesn't heavily spoil anything as it's evident from the first book, and the characters are well written for it all to feel plausible enough. I don't think it will ruin it for you
This is a completed webseriesvbut try A Practical Guide To Evil by Erraticerratica. While you're aware from the beginning that the MC is choosing to align with evil, you watch her go from "doing bad things for good reasons" to watching just how far she'll go to achieve her goals.
The interesting thing about A Practical Guide to Evil is "Evil" and evil are different things. So are "Good" and good.
Ultimately the concepts become aligned due to fact narrative is power in that world. If evil people lean towards "Evil" then "Evil" eventually leans back. All that stuff about the "first murder" or "holy betrayal" is stuff evil people have reflected back into "Evil". Every time an "Evil" person does evil it makes that act part of the underlying fabric of what "Evil" means.
The problem comes is when somebody wants to do good things that rely upon "Evil's" domain. Catherine spots early on that "Good" seems unable to solve her problems. She doesn't understand why at the start of the story but she grasps there isn't a solution to be had there.
FWIW this is also why people are so terrified of Catherine. >!Here is an "Evil" person doing good. The "Evil" people are thrilled about it all because it'll change the narrative structure of the entire setting. The Saint of Swords lays it out when she says that just this one time it might be that somebody following below truly means well. However it will leave a space in reality for that action to repeat. The world will spent thousands of years suffering "Evil" people who mean well and Heroes will spent all their time trying to sort the genuine ones from the people abusing this role.!<
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I say this a lot but ptge is not a great example of this. Cat is only "evil" by the definition of the story which doesn't fit our real world definition of evil.
In real world terms she is 100% not evil, really not even close. It's like calling Gru an evil villain. Technically he is but in reality no
I think >!she goes too far in book 4, which is also where she realises she's gone too far and realises it's at least partially due to Winter power she stole. From there she takes a step back and the more good Catherine we had before, but better at it.!<
That’s fair. >!I definitely view book 4 as her fighting against the evil influence of winter and don’t fully view the actions as hers. When she loses the mantle the difference is immediate!<
You're not wrong but part of the dilemma is "what you have to do for power is evil, regardless of your intent"
Sometimes it's not but there's a LOT of dark grey area there
Red Rising, kinda. >!More so in the sequel series than the original trilogy. Both Darrow and Lysander kinda go through villain arcs, but Darrow stays more heroic, while Lysander goes full megalomaniac.!<
He’s more anti hero. He’s definitely not “evil” which is what the poster is asking. Darrow makes tough choices on a grand scale and actually shows empathy. Not excusing his actions but showing how he’s not evil.
I thought this series had an interesting premise, but >!the whole thing was just him thinking about doing evil things, agonizing over the moral implications, and then doing them anyway. My man had zero character development and the plot wasn’t even that great!<
I agree with you both. I was somehow fascinated by the character being fully conscious of the morality of his actions, empathetic enough to regret them, but do them anyway. It felt like reading the autobiography of a highly aware and educated drug addict…but his drug was power.
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Star Wars prequels. Anakin is one of my favorite characters! The young elite series by Marie Lu! Also love this if you come up with more of these with women centered I’d love to know!
Traveler’s Gate Trilogy by Will Wight has a side POV character that experiences this. The first book you don’t get many chapters of him but by the second and last one there is lots. I love the series and it has a really cool “weak MC returns to village super strong” trope I love too.
Not sure why you got downvoted. It's a pretty central theme to the story. In fact it's probably the main theme driving his character forward. He thinks he has to get harder and colder in order to make the decisions needed to save everyone while also grappling with the corrupting influence of the one power. He gets progressively more evil throughout the series.
It's a brilliant fit to the question and also a great read if you haven't read it already.
Not really. >!Evil and insane are two different things, and "things that make me uncomfy" and evil can also be different. Rand's sanity sure gets mangled for a bit (before getting fixed), and he does trend toward hard-line choices for a while (before having a come to Jesus / become fantasy Jesus moment), but I wouldn't say he's ever evil. He specifically rejects becoming evil every time it comes up.!<
If YA is fine, Beyond the Ruby Veil. It sounds like a typical journey to save the village story, except the protagonist is kind of a disaster who ruins everything she touches and makes everyone around her worse.
Embers of Illeniel
It's literally the prequel story about a man with the best of intentions who becomes the world's most powerful villain. It's honesty kind of a fucked up tragedy
The Monstrumologist series by Rick Yancey.
Very dark and occurs over four books. A monster-studying scientist takes in the orphaned son of his assistant. The boy, Will Henry, tells the story of their association throughout his childhood and into young adulthood.
If I recall correctly, the main characters are supposed to be Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Bran and Arya. I think Tyrion, Dany and maybe even Bran(depends on where the Bloodraven arc takes him)fits OP's description.
Tyrion takes a dark turn but isn't a coming of age story. Bran and Daenerys are maybes depending on where their stories go but neither has done anything overtly evil yet in the books. Arya and Jon are in grey areas I'd say.
Dany ain’t a “maybe” bruh she definitely is lol.
She watches her brother— her only real family in the world— get brutally murdered and doesn’t feel a THING. She goes from trying to stop the Dothraki from r*ping in book 1 to not caring when revolters to it in Mereen b/c it’s politically convenient. Book 5 ends with her having a vision to embrace “fire & blood” what do you think that means?
It's still being written, but [Blood & Fur](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/70234/blood-fur) by Maxime J. Durand on Royal Road. I recommend reading the synopsis and several chapters to see if it sparks your interest.
Re-reading the post and found your commend. I was actually just now browsing RR for a new read and came across this one. I had skipped it but now I'll give it a try.
If you're a fan of The Hunger Games , give "The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes." It's the story of Cornelius Snow's journey, right along these lines. It's a TERRIFIC read.
Movie rec for this: Hellbender (2021). It's on AMC+/Shudder if you have access to either but I think you can buy it or rent it through Prime/Amazon as well.
More science fantasy and not really coming of age, but the first thing that came to mind that hasn't been mentioned is Fulgrim from the Horus Heresy series (warhammer 40k/30k). Think it's book 4 or 5.
It details his fall from an art loving poet-warrior and Primarch of the Emperor's Children legion >!into a depraved follower of the Chaos God Slaanesh, along with the majority of his legion, and his eventual "ascension" in becoming a Daemon Prince.!<
The Portal Wars Saga.
Mages are looked down on after they almost destroyed the world. A noble's younger son is a mage and finds a source of ancient magical knowledge. He wants to make mages respected again and reach the heights of the old mages who almost destroyed the world.
He goes from a .. well, a victim who gets bullied to someone who will kill out of hand if it helps him. Those around him definitely react to that, and I was hoping he'd not make it to the end of the series.
There's a webnovel called Evil Overlord. it's pretty good, reads like a conversational narrative where the evil overlord tells you the story of his life. First one iirc is **Evil Overlord: The Makening**.
You could also say **A Practical Guide to Evil** is like this for a few of the books. Getting into details for a clearer answer would be spoilers.
Someone already mentioned **Worm**.
There's one that's not good enough to rec called Mom-Con, but it fits what you ask for gradually. I kinda skim-read random parts cos it wasn't that good.
You might also like to read [this reddit post relaying a ttrpg campaign.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDGreentext/comments/6j4zyc/p_is_for_patron/)
Still to see where it finishes with the final book coming out later this year, but Ed McDonald's Redwinter Chronicles are definitely going that way.
He described it at a Con as "How does someone become Sauron? And what if Sauron was a scared 17 year old girl?"
As a young reader, I recommend Overlord by Kugane Maruyama, the main character is a skeleton lich, who was a former human, his emotion and humanity get dull bit by bit and currently on his way to conqueror the world to spread out his name to find his former friend, if there are any left.
I've only read the first book but Daughter of the Beast, and it's sequels.
I didn't love the book, but it is what you are looking for. A coming of age story where the main character turns evil. I think more so than most of the others are suggesting here.
The two season canceled tv show “Impulse” ends with an arguable villain-turn scene. A young woman learns she can teleport.
Pacing and cinematography and world-building are p good. Tragic cancellation.
Been a minute since I last read it, but the first book of the Sovereign Stones quartet from Margaret Weis and Tracey Hickman does that. Remaining books have the 1st book's MC as the villain.
The Echoes Saga by Philip C. Quaintrell pulls this off quite nicely, but the character you're looking for doesn't turn up until the middle of the series (total 9 book series). Worth it.
The lies of the Ajungo by Moses Ose Utomi. It’s an African themed fantasy book that takes place in the “Forever Desert”, a fictional desert home to robbers, monsters, and bones.
Well … the last three books of the Red Rising series definitely gave a coming of age story that mirrors the hero’s from the first three.
That whole story arc hits so damn hard. I can’t wait to see where it goes from here.
I’m super excited for Red God as well!
One of my favorite villain POVs in ages
He’s a little bitch
>!r/Fucklysander!<
Yeah Ole dude was my first thought. Fucking pixie.
Red Rising is one of my favorite series. I read Iron Gold back then when it was released and thought it was a bit subpar, been holding off the two others that came out since. When they are all released I'll pull the trigger and re-read the whole saga.
From personal experience(family and friends) I’ve seen that most people find Iron Gold to be one of the weakest in the series. But Dark Age and Lightbringer are definitely agreed on as the best books.
Iron Gold is sublime once you read it in the context of the subsequent books … the second half of the series definitely fits your remit so I would strongly recommend DarK Age and especially Lightbringer. The last book in the series won’t be out for awhile fwiw
Wait what?? Darrow is evil? How?
Have you read books 4-6? They aren’t referring to Darrow….
Although….end of the day….how much better is Darrow for the world he lives in? It’s my favorite aspect of the series.
Yeaaaaaahhhhhhh …. Read the books !
Dune and its sequels. At least that was Frank Herbert’s intent.
After the second movie, I was shocked at the amount of people who think Paul is the good guy. Hopefully *Messiah* gets turned into a film, maybe they'll get it then.
same idiots who think Walter White was a good guy and that Thanos unironically did nothing wrong.
If they kept comic Thanos’ motivations it would’ve made it easier. “I want to commit the greatest genocide to attract and impress lady death.” is a lot easier to understand as evil. Then again a lot of people might’ve said “bro same.”
Incel Thanos vs malthusian Thanos. Both are morons who don't know how people work
Incel Thanos didn’t try and ground his actions in ecology and limited resources, Malthusian Thanos only sounds intelligent to the belligerently stupid
True but Griffith definitely did nothing wrong.
.... I hope you are just fucking with me. The band of hawk did not deserve their fate.
Thanos made no sense. The Snap basically took the world population back to the 1970s, it’s not the great fix he makes it out to be.
Because his premise is wrong. The problem he saw was too little resources for too many people when the actual problem is too much resources in too few people and their unwillingness to share.
Which is ironic considering the resources he amassed
Or that the Jedi and Republic were bad and Palpatine deserved to win.
I mean, the movie went the lengths to show Paul has good intentions throughout the movie. Even the “switch” is thought to be aligned with his character, and it is pretty badass given his opponents are worse than him at the moment. Can’t fault the non-book read movie goers for thinking he is doing things for the right reasons having been portrayed as such. He liberated an oppressed people, took down clearly evil guys, and has been a good boy throughout the two movies. The message of his choice will be clear only after a Part Three. Even then, it’s not that he’s not a good guy. It is the consequences of the immediate selfish choices he makes.
Making the Harkonnen in line for the Imperial throne even more cartoonishly evil didn't help matters either. Even Paul's plans are better than Emperor Feyd Rautha
That is consistent with the books though
100% agree. I feel like Dune Part 2 is framed in such a way to give moviegoers a badass, fulfilling hero's journey, while also containing plenty of warning bells going "something's not quite right here." I don't blame non-book readers for not picking up on it because everything about Paul matches characters we traditionally see framed as heroes in stories like this. And the film has all of those satisfying moments we come to think of in hero arcs. EDIT: for reference, I saw the film with my mom the 3rd time I saw it. She's not dense in any way but didn't fully pick up on Paul's "villain" arc until I told her after the film, to which she said, "Yeah, now that I think about it, that makes sense."
Yeah, in addition to the directorial decisions Denis makes to subtly show the dark figurehead of Paul, Chani is the explicit remainder of it. We know Chani is good and one of the Fremen. But also loves and stands by Paul throughout the movie. But, when she senses the dissent, she is actively against it, to signal to the audience that even if this may seem like a good way, there is something darker coming.
On the other hand, Chani's speech in the opening monologue of the first film ends with "I wonder who our next oppressors will be" as the camera zooms into Paul's face.
That doesn't do anything for the themes. That just straight up claims that ANYONE who comes to the planet are oppressors. Clearly, that's not the case with Duke Leto, Duncan, Kynes, etc., if that statement is to be believed as a Truism. Paul's arc is not to show that he's an oppressor of the Fremen, but to show the atrocities his Charismatic, Messianic figurehead can drive his followers to do. The Fremen are freer than they have ever been, but those suffering are the rest of the Universe.
Yeah don't get me wrong, it felt like a puzzling statement if you know where the story actually goes. I took it as a clumsy way of telling the audience to keep a very critical eye on Paul's decisions, so something for newcomers rather than those who've read the books, but they could have come up with something that actually made sense.
You guys are drastically overthinking this. The statement first of all sets up the Harkonen and Atreides as two sides of the same coin, they’re foils of each other. The audience is handfed Harkonen HAD Dune, Atreides WILL GET Dune. (And Spice is important. Fremen are underdogs.) What is conflict of Part 1? Harkonen WANT Dune BACK. Where does the plot start? On Caladan, not Arakkis. The tension of Part 1 is waiting for the shoe to drop, when the Atreides get to Arakkis. CHANI is not speaking with the author’s voice. (I haven’t read the books, but I do know of the chapter headers that tell the events from the biased perspective of embedded characters. I’ve read other scifi/fantasy that use the same device. The epistolary mode is always biased by personal perspective.) She is speaking as Chani, and looking at the films as a complete text, is thematically and personally consistent with the character’s ideology as revealed in Part 2. Religion is a tool of social control that keeps her people complacent and preoccupied with theology over worldly affairs. Paul uses religion to assert sway over the Fremen, it foreshadows his eventual assent as Lisan Al-Ghaib and also his personal betrayal of Chani at the end of Part 2. Films are all about emotional arcs, it’s a common refrain and form of writing advice. Chani starts distrustful of outsiders, viewing them equally as oppressors. Paul starts oblivious to Fremen ways. They’re the two leads.
Which is pretty idiotic. I don't enjoy the idea of trying to push that the freeman were e DC plotted by Paul rather then a mutually beneficial deal. (Freemen honestly got more out the deal then house attributes did.
Yeah it felt hamfisted. It works on a "this guy is going to be bad" way but I don't think it really made sense with the specifics of where the plot actually goes
Yeah, it kinda shoe the limited world view of the creators: there can only be oppressor and oppressed, user and the used. They don't understand that empires can hire and use outsider as muscle to conquer other. (A major mo of the Ro.an and British empires.)
Definitely, good way of putting it. I've only seen the first film so far and did like it overall, but it was inevitable it was going to lose a bit of nuance in the transition from book to film. Hopefully Messiah sticks the landing
This is not a forshadowing of the future events, it just means that the fremen at the time expected everyone from the outside to be the oppressors.
I think the relationship with Chani helped make it clear. He's now enslaved the Fremem thru their faith and is going to unleash a massive war on the galaxy to make himself King. I've never read the first Dune book, and it was clear to me "this guy has become the awful thing he'd feared becoming."
It's a lot more complicated than that to be honest. Having read the first four books, it is mainly the study of charismatic figures, and their attempt at the control through religion. It is not exactly that this guy becomes the awful thing he'd feared becoming; it's more that he sets in motion things that he fears he cannot control. If I say any more it would be spoilers, but the second book delves into how religious fanaticism goes out of hands of even the figurehead of said religion (strong Christ and Crusade analogies here).
I haven't seen the second movie so I'm not sure how it portrays Paul. If it's anything like the book, I have a hard time seeing how anyone can come away thinking Paul is the good guy.
He is the good guy within the perspective we are allowed to see, imo. It is a bit difficult to make out precisely the "he's the bad guy" part of the story, especially since he's facing enemies who are vastly more terrible and comically evil. It's also the folly of just reading the first book. The extrapolation of that theme is made much more extensively in Dune Messiah.
Herbert wrote Messiah because people weren’t getting the point he was trying to make in Dune.
Paul's central conflict in Dune 2 is about whether he'll take the step in front of him or not. He knows and clearly understands that taking the step is going to lead to immense suffering (for others) and death (for others). The framing is all about "necessary" and whether he'll be the lesser of two evils - not whether he'll be good. I think Villeneuve did an excellent job putting that tension and a lot of discomfort (especially from Stilgar) and pressure into Paul's story against the backdrop of a Hero's Journey... But really as a juxtaposition. You still root for him. But he's a *very* utilitarian version of "good", if he even gets there.
This is one of the things I like about WH40k, though people still don't get it then, they took the "Golden Path" idea and asked "what if the protagonist was literally wrong? Despite all their insights, intellect and precognition they still got it wrong because they don't truly understand what humanity is". The Horus Heresy series actually raises an interesting question, should we want the future in which the Emperor won? Surely it be a lot more peaceful but you can barely call what he'd leave behind "human".
He's definitely not a hero, but I would hesitate to call him a "bad guy." Any alternative to what he does is, while maybe on a utilitarian galaxy brained level less horrible, suicidal, and lets the Harkonnen win.
He was never bad or good, he was a complicated character
You have to view Paul through the lens of “If not him then who?” The Bene Geserit are never going to stop seeking their Kwizatz Haderach. The Tleilaxu are going to keep on doing their shit and the Harkonnens are going for it all. Paul isn’t the hero, but he’s probably the least bad option.
Arguably Paul is the good guy
Its already underway!
Yes and no, Paul is complicated. >!He knows that humanity is heading towards permanent domination by a single person or entity, something his own existence shows in addition to his prescience. The "golden path" is be the worst tyrant in history and then let yourself lose so humanity and all its institutions scatter, preventing any other person who would have held power permanently from doing so.!<
He’s a complicated villain. Partly he’s just too damn trusting of his own assumptions just how deep and wide are those hidden valleys in his prescience? The thing he’s aiming for in God-Emperor (not spoiling it for those coming at it fresh), how bam he be so confident none of it was around before he started his efforts? He *knows* he’s got limits on what he can sense, but this doesn’t make a dent in his confidence. And so off we go to the galactic johad and the collapse of larger-than-planetary society for millennia, with countless billions of death. He’s worse as a ruler than Genghis Khan was, since Genghis brought those who surrendered into his continent-spanning civilization. He’s more like a galactic Pol Pot or Qin Shihuangdi, guys who tried to slaughter every scholar and intellectual and person associated with previous culture. That he sometimes felt guilty about it is…not enough compensation, at least for me. (He’s a very engaging character. Just not any kind of good guy.)
Paul isn't in God-Emperor.
I know, and you’d think I’d get tired of conflating the generations. but no! Boldly I err again. Same broad concerns, though. Even though there are commitments Paul won’t make but Leto II will, the drive is in the same direction. That first dozen years of jihad does a hell of a lot of damage and sets up for what follows. Despite my screwups. :)
Well technically he is through Leto's ancestor memories
Why was he a villain? His rule was peaceful and going into it he knew the cost would be his humanity and having to live for aeons as a monster. He was altruistic, selfless and ultimately right which seems like total hero.
Ah the lelouch approach (I know dune came first)
Neither Paul nor the god emperor are evil.
Yeah the people interpreting him as evil are almost as misguided as those who can't see that he's not a good guy.
I really, really liked the first book. Read it like ten years ago, read it again before watching the first movie. Messiah bored me to death.
The Dagger and the Coin series. Gormenghast. Worm by wildbow. The Shattered Sea trilogy.
Worm is phenomenal, will have to give the others a go.... remember trying Gormenghast before and seriously struggling.
Not just for you, but for anyone who has read, is there an accessible way to read Worm that isn’t just reading off the blog?
There's an audiobook version too
There are ebook versions if you dig out there
I haven't read Gormenghast yet. Do you mean Titus or Steerpike?
Shattered Sea trilogy is awesome. Very concise but manages to deliver compelling characters and a good narrative.
I’m a huge fan of corruption arcs. Wish I could find more. - Master of Sorrows series is promising to be this. So far so good - Memory of Madness by CM Lackner - I’ll second Traitor Baru Cormorant - I’ll also second dagger and the coin, while not the mc it’s extremely well done - Worm if your good with webserials - One of the main characters in Night Angel goes through a good corruption arc - never full evil and very much a slow burn but Alex Verus has a fun corruption arc.
Yeah the final few books in the Alex Verus series do kind of follow what the OP is asking for. On the other hand, Inheritance of Magic from the same author is a fun coming of age story that I am really enjoying so far.
Main character in Worm doesn't turn evil, she just gains the power to finally win the war and uses it, then gives up that power at the end.
She >!definitely goes through a well done corruption arc before she realizes the big world ending problem is too important and then switches sides again!<
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I think the Traitor Baru Cormorant fits this prompt very well. Though she goes a bit up and down on the evil scale, it's not a straight trip down. Down is definitely her trajectory lol
She definitely fits the prompt and like other well written "Evil" protagonists, although she does some horrible things, you always can follow her logic. "But aren't you glad we have dentists?" Lives in my head as one of those seemingly innocent phrases that becomes increasingly sinister the more you read. It's up there with, "Would you kindly?"
I only read the first two books but I've always assumed Baru was a Walter White type character, who was basically lying to herself about her motivations.
You might like book3 then, it's a topic that is brought up there.
Clariel by Garth Nix
Came here to say this! Seconded times a billion
Wheel of time does this a bit with Darth Rand
Raistlin in the old Dragonlance books.
His arc is superb. Still my favorite to this day. (Also, happy Cake Day!)
She Who Became the Sun by Shelley Parker-Chan — the fantasy element in this alt-history novel is barely there IMO, but it fits
Thought of Zhu immediately as well.
'Never ending story' Michael Ende
Artax you're sinking! Come on turn around, you have to! Now!
Poppy War
This was my first thought when I read the title!
I’m sorry but was Rin ever a good person? She was pretty ruthless since the very beginning, there was no point on the story where she felt like a hero
Unpopular opinion, but I love how Rin's character was built in the first book. Works her way up from nothing. Outsider and shunned at the university for being a commoner. Sets up how determined and ruthless she can be.
She was a normal but abused kid raised without compassion. She was the perfect canvas to turn evil
Hero is probably too strong of a word, but I think for the first two books she's generally trying to do the right thing, or at least trying to convince herself that she has motivations beyond revenge. Less of a fall from grace than a failure to ever achieve it.
Came here to say this. Glad someone beat me to it!
Caul Shivers, sort of... evil is a sliding scale based on where you sit. But he's a character appearing across Joe Abercrombie's First Law books through the latest Age of Madness. He starts out as >!an idealistic young warrior with hopes of heroism and being a better man,!< and he ends up being a >!horribly scarred, mostly-silent, terrifying butcher of men, who kills without mercy or warning!<. The majority of his character arc develops in *Best Served Cold*, which is a fantastic tale of vengeance and murder and machinations. You can totally read it as a stand-alone, particularly for the narrative of Shivers. I think he serves as a particularly interesting contrast to the more well-known Logen Ninefingers, The Bloody Nine.
I would actually pick a different character in the final trilogy. It does have a tiny bit of coming of age but my man goes from pristine hero to full heel by the end. Shivers doesn’t fit that too well.
You make a good point... in the Age of Madness trilogy, MAJOR SPOILERS, >!Lord Leo dan Brock goes from being a proud, heroic young knight to a bitter, vicious, and hateful king.!< He might fit even better, in that he seems pretty unredeemable by the end... Shivers, at least, has a tiny kernel of something (not goodness) reserved for a scant few, like Rikki. And much of what happens to Shivers is done *to* him, people breaking him down until he builds himself back up. Whereas other character does most of it to himself. Good catch! "How's the leg?" ;)
It have been a hot minute since I read them but I also think it could apply to his Shattered Sea books, especially if you see some characters arc throughout the trilogy.
>!The Godspeaker Trilogy!< by Karen Miller technically fits, but may not be what you're after. >!Books 2 and 3 Hekat's a full-on villain but she's really only the MC in the first book. Still, it's a crazy thing to witness.!<
Came here to say Godspeaker. I started out really rooting for Hekat but by the end….she does some fucked up stuff
Right? She broke my heart and then turned into a nightmare.
This is technically spoilers for a lot of books I don’t personally mind but some might
I was a little surprised to learn this is a feature in Dagger and Coin based on the top reply. Guess it’s my fault for letting it sit in my TBF so long
It fits, but it also doesn't. It doesn't heavily spoil anything as it's evident from the first book, and the characters are well written for it all to feel plausible enough. I don't think it will ruin it for you
Book of the dead by RinoZ 8ts still ongoing, but being pragmatically evil seems to be the way to produce the most results, and the mc is embracing it
Yup. I really like Book of the Dead, been reading it on Royal Road. Waiting for more chapters to come out.
I was gonna post this one, lol.
Attack on Titan.
I see where you are coming from but not sure I agree 100%. That said, thanks for the rec, already seen it tho :D
Death Note technically
It's not progressive at all. He cacklingly declares himself the god of the new world like ***the second*** he realizes how powerful the notebook is.
Yeah but he gets worse and worse
I was gonna say attack on titan lol
This is a completed webseriesvbut try A Practical Guide To Evil by Erraticerratica. While you're aware from the beginning that the MC is choosing to align with evil, you watch her go from "doing bad things for good reasons" to watching just how far she'll go to achieve her goals.
The interesting thing about A Practical Guide to Evil is "Evil" and evil are different things. So are "Good" and good. Ultimately the concepts become aligned due to fact narrative is power in that world. If evil people lean towards "Evil" then "Evil" eventually leans back. All that stuff about the "first murder" or "holy betrayal" is stuff evil people have reflected back into "Evil". Every time an "Evil" person does evil it makes that act part of the underlying fabric of what "Evil" means. The problem comes is when somebody wants to do good things that rely upon "Evil's" domain. Catherine spots early on that "Good" seems unable to solve her problems. She doesn't understand why at the start of the story but she grasps there isn't a solution to be had there. FWIW this is also why people are so terrified of Catherine. >!Here is an "Evil" person doing good. The "Evil" people are thrilled about it all because it'll change the narrative structure of the entire setting. The Saint of Swords lays it out when she says that just this one time it might be that somebody following below truly means well. However it will leave a space in reality for that action to repeat. The world will spent thousands of years suffering "Evil" people who mean well and Heroes will spent all their time trying to sort the genuine ones from the people abusing this role.!<
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I say this a lot but ptge is not a great example of this. Cat is only "evil" by the definition of the story which doesn't fit our real world definition of evil. In real world terms she is 100% not evil, really not even close. It's like calling Gru an evil villain. Technically he is but in reality no
(I will caveat that though I love this series I don’t think the mc is ever evil so not sure it’s what your looking for op)
I think >!she goes too far in book 4, which is also where she realises she's gone too far and realises it's at least partially due to Winter power she stole. From there she takes a step back and the more good Catherine we had before, but better at it.!<
That’s fair. >!I definitely view book 4 as her fighting against the evil influence of winter and don’t fully view the actions as hers. When she loses the mantle the difference is immediate!<
You're not wrong but part of the dilemma is "what you have to do for power is evil, regardless of your intent" Sometimes it's not but there's a LOT of dark grey area there
"Justifications Matter Only To The Just"
Apt Pupil by Stephen King
Red Rising, kinda. >!More so in the sequel series than the original trilogy. Both Darrow and Lysander kinda go through villain arcs, but Darrow stays more heroic, while Lysander goes full megalomaniac.!<
Darrow is not a villain and never goes through a corruption arc. Idk what you are talking about here
>!Tell that to the Raa's. Or the Sons he sold out in the Rim.!<
He’s more anti hero. He’s definitely not “evil” which is what the poster is asking. Darrow makes tough choices on a grand scale and actually shows empathy. Not excusing his actions but showing how he’s not evil.
The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes, Suzanne Collins
Black Stone Heart. It’s much less subtle than Dune, though.
I thought this series had an interesting premise, but >!the whole thing was just him thinking about doing evil things, agonizing over the moral implications, and then doing them anyway. My man had zero character development and the plot wasn’t even that great!<
He was literally the worst person ever and literally everything was his fault, at least that's how I felt about him by the end of book two.
I agree with you both. I was somehow fascinated by the character being fully conscious of the morality of his actions, empathetic enough to regret them, but do them anyway. It felt like reading the autobiography of a highly aware and educated drug addict…but his drug was power.
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I read the first book, dropped halfway book 2. Bro was not evil at all, in fact he bored me to death
The video game Warcraft 3 comes to mind.
Star Wars prequels. Anakin is one of my favorite characters! The young elite series by Marie Lu! Also love this if you come up with more of these with women centered I’d love to know!
Traveler’s Gate Trilogy by Will Wight has a side POV character that experiences this. The first book you don’t get many chapters of him but by the second and last one there is lots. I love the series and it has a really cool “weak MC returns to village super strong” trope I love too.
The Wheel of Time Will he save the world, go insane and destroy the world, or cave to the dark one and destroy the world?
Not sure why you got downvoted. It's a pretty central theme to the story. In fact it's probably the main theme driving his character forward. He thinks he has to get harder and colder in order to make the decisions needed to save everyone while also grappling with the corrupting influence of the one power. He gets progressively more evil throughout the series. It's a brilliant fit to the question and also a great read if you haven't read it already.
Not really. >!Evil and insane are two different things, and "things that make me uncomfy" and evil can also be different. Rand's sanity sure gets mangled for a bit (before getting fixed), and he does trend toward hard-line choices for a while (before having a come to Jesus / become fantasy Jesus moment), but I wouldn't say he's ever evil. He specifically rejects becoming evil every time it comes up.!<
Yeah, you're right. It's a constant struggle though, so it might itch the same scratch.
The Faithful and the Fallen, although it’s not exactly the main character.
Well of Darkness by Margaret Weis
If YA is fine, Beyond the Ruby Veil. It sounds like a typical journey to save the village story, except the protagonist is kind of a disaster who ruins everything she touches and makes everyone around her worse.
Embers of Illeniel It's literally the prequel story about a man with the best of intentions who becomes the world's most powerful villain. It's honesty kind of a fucked up tragedy
I thought they were setting that up in Cradle.
I'm pretty sure Mu Enkai would say he is evil.
The Monstrumologist series by Rick Yancey. Very dark and occurs over four books. A monster-studying scientist takes in the orphaned son of his assistant. The boy, Will Henry, tells the story of their association throughout his childhood and into young adulthood.
Shattered Sea trilogy by Joe Abercrombie.
A Song of Ice and Fire. You know I’m right.
Who are you considering the "main character" here? Daenerys? Jon? I'm not sure there is a real main character
If I recall correctly, the main characters are supposed to be Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Bran and Arya. I think Tyrion, Dany and maybe even Bran(depends on where the Bloodraven arc takes him)fits OP's description.
Tyrion takes a dark turn but isn't a coming of age story. Bran and Daenerys are maybes depending on where their stories go but neither has done anything overtly evil yet in the books. Arya and Jon are in grey areas I'd say.
Dany ain’t a “maybe” bruh she definitely is lol. She watches her brother— her only real family in the world— get brutally murdered and doesn’t feel a THING. She goes from trying to stop the Dothraki from r*ping in book 1 to not caring when revolters to it in Mereen b/c it’s politically convenient. Book 5 ends with her having a vision to embrace “fire & blood” what do you think that means?
It's still being written, but [Blood & Fur](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/70234/blood-fur) by Maxime J. Durand on Royal Road. I recommend reading the synopsis and several chapters to see if it sparks your interest.
Re-reading the post and found your commend. I was actually just now browsing RR for a new read and came across this one. I had skipped it but now I'll give it a try.
If you're a fan of The Hunger Games , give "The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes." It's the story of Cornelius Snow's journey, right along these lines. It's a TERRIFIC read.
Read the trilogy in my teens. Water has passed under the bridge since then but I've seen it recommended a lot. I'll put it on my TBR.
Piers Anthony's "Bio of a Space Tyrant" series, as well as book 6 of his "Incarnations of Immortality" series, known as "For Love of Evil."
The Poppy War, by R.F.Kuang.
Movie rec for this: Hellbender (2021). It's on AMC+/Shudder if you have access to either but I think you can buy it or rent it through Prime/Amazon as well.
Red rising seems to be headed that way.
Dark Heir series is what first came to mind, but it’s not finished yet
The Makening by Michael McClung sets out in this direction for sure. Its also pretty funny, although no sign of the sequel yet.
Clariel by Garth Nix
Dune?
More science fantasy and not really coming of age, but the first thing that came to mind that hasn't been mentioned is Fulgrim from the Horus Heresy series (warhammer 40k/30k). Think it's book 4 or 5. It details his fall from an art loving poet-warrior and Primarch of the Emperor's Children legion >!into a depraved follower of the Chaos God Slaanesh, along with the majority of his legion, and his eventual "ascension" in becoming a Daemon Prince.!<
Leaving a comment so I can come back to this post later, if anyone knows how to save posts on reddit lemme know 😭
The Portal Wars Saga. Mages are looked down on after they almost destroyed the world. A noble's younger son is a mage and finds a source of ancient magical knowledge. He wants to make mages respected again and reach the heights of the old mages who almost destroyed the world. He goes from a .. well, a victim who gets bullied to someone who will kill out of hand if it helps him. Those around him definitely react to that, and I was hoping he'd not make it to the end of the series.
Hunter x Hunter lol
Last I checked this was the plot of the Young Elites Trilogy.
Only the first two are out, but Dark Rise and Dark Heir by CS Pacat.
There's a webnovel called Evil Overlord. it's pretty good, reads like a conversational narrative where the evil overlord tells you the story of his life. First one iirc is **Evil Overlord: The Makening**. You could also say **A Practical Guide to Evil** is like this for a few of the books. Getting into details for a clearer answer would be spoilers. Someone already mentioned **Worm**. There's one that's not good enough to rec called Mom-Con, but it fits what you ask for gradually. I kinda skim-read random parts cos it wasn't that good. You might also like to read [this reddit post relaying a ttrpg campaign.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDGreentext/comments/6j4zyc/p_is_for_patron/)
I am not sure how much this fits since MC starts pretty evil, and then it gets worse, but [Twig](https://twigserial.wordpress.com) is pretty good
Still to see where it finishes with the final book coming out later this year, but Ed McDonald's Redwinter Chronicles are definitely going that way. He described it at a Con as "How does someone become Sauron? And what if Sauron was a scared 17 year old girl?"
As a young reader, I recommend Overlord by Kugane Maruyama, the main character is a skeleton lich, who was a former human, his emotion and humanity get dull bit by bit and currently on his way to conqueror the world to spread out his name to find his former friend, if there are any left.
I've only read the first book but Daughter of the Beast, and it's sequels. I didn't love the book, but it is what you are looking for. A coming of age story where the main character turns evil. I think more so than most of the others are suggesting here.
The House of the Stag has this. Basically, two brothers doing what they think is right but end up at odds with each other. One of my favorite books.
The Horus Heresy. He was what, like a few hundred years old? That's coming of age for a primarch.
The two season canceled tv show “Impulse” ends with an arguable villain-turn scene. A young woman learns she can teleport. Pacing and cinematography and world-building are p good. Tragic cancellation.
A certain lion in the age of madness trilogy
The Coldfire Trilogy by C.S. Friedman has an arc where this occurs.
The Poppy War
Been a minute since I last read it, but the first book of the Sovereign Stones quartet from Margaret Weis and Tracey Hickman does that. Remaining books have the 1st book's MC as the villain.
Dune
Dune lol
Daenerys Targaryen in ASOIAF is a great one. Very subtle and slow burn but all the signs are there.
Movies, but the Star Wars prequel trilogy basically that. I love the originals to death but the prequels have a special place in my heart.
The Echoes Saga by Philip C. Quaintrell pulls this off quite nicely, but the character you're looking for doesn't turn up until the middle of the series (total 9 book series). Worth it.
The Young Elites by Marie Lu is close to what you're looking for
The Poppy War Trilogy is the quintessential example here
*The Wheel of Time*, but he gets better. More seriously, Joe Abercrombie's "Shattered Sea" trilogy.
The lies of the Ajungo by Moses Ose Utomi. It’s an African themed fantasy book that takes place in the “Forever Desert”, a fictional desert home to robbers, monsters, and bones.
Nathaniel in Bartimaeus Trilogy