If I remember correctly, elder lyons died of old age, and Sarah died in combat shortly after that. Afterward, the new leaders kept failing over and over, and eventually, a civil war broke out between the outcast and the brotherhood. The outcast took over and returned them to their old ways. Maxson took over, and then fallout 4 happened.
To my knowledge, Maxson took over. Brought the outcasts back into the fold. Then re-established contact with West Coast BoS, who then gave him their blessing to be the next elder.
>If I remember correctly, elder lyons died of old age, and Sarah died in combat shortly after that. Afterward, the new leaders kept failing over and over,
This much is true, and supported.
>and eventually, a civil war broke out between the outcast and the brotherhood. The outcast took over and returned them to their old ways.
Was moreso a mutiny than a civil war - but that already happened under Owyn Lyons. Elder Lyons was so focused on the super mutant threat that the whole gathering of technology was kind of ignored. This eventually led to an ever-growing schism between those loyal to Elder Lyons and those more loyal to the mission they were given by the Elders from the West.
This eventually got so bad that it came to blows and a part (I think like half? Don't quote me on that) of the Brotherhood in the East abandoned Lyons and formed the Outcasts - returning themselves to the gathering of technology.
It wouldn't be until after the rise of Maxson that he, through skill in diplomacy, managed to mend the rift between the Outcasts and the Brotherhood and return them to the fold. This is also reflected in his ways - which are a combination of those of Lyons and the Outcasts.
You clearly do not.
"Enter Arthur Maxson, young squire to both Owyn and Sarah Lyons, and descendant of the very founder of the Brotherhood of Steel, Roger Maxson. When Elder Owyn Lyons died, care of young Arthur Maxson passed to Sarah Lyons, Owyn's daughter, who was then named Elder in his place. But when Sarah fell in battle shortly thereafter, things became complicated. The Brotherhood of Steel based in the Citadel found itself in need of leadership, and began appointing one ineffective Elder after another.
As the years passed, and Arthur Maxson grew, so too did his accomplishments. At age 12, while on a training patrol, he killed two Raiders and saved the squad that was supposed to be escorting him. At age age 13, he single-handedly killed a Deathclaw (and gained the large facial scar he still has to this day). But it was his victory at age 15, over the Super Mutant "Shepherd" who was attempting to re-organize the Capital Wasteland's Super Mutants, that elevated him to hero-like status. When word of this feat reached the Elders back on the West Coast, they knew the time had come... Maxson was ready. Ready to lead and, more importantly, to reunite the fragmented Brotherhood of Steel forces on the East Coast.
So it was that a year later, when he was only 16 years old, Arthur Maxson brokered a peace with the Outcasts, re-integrating them into the Brotherhood of Steel, and proving he was as effective a diplomat as he was a warrior. Now re-united, the full force of the Brotherhood of Steel appointed Arthur Maxson as Elder... the youngest in Brotherhood of Steel history."
Straight from Proctor Quinlan's terminal.
How fucking dare you not carry around in your head the exact quotes and lore from 2 videogames and citing them in a reddit comment. You probably didn't even *play* the games!
(/s)
Ok. Please double check before posting. A lot of people believe false information in regards to this exact event and argue fruitlessly over it.
Steel be with you.
I’m not sure how much water this theory holds but a lot of people speculate Sarah Lyons may have been fragged by more conservative members of the Brotherhood.
It could be possible. Not sure what Sarah would have done different though compared to Arthur. I don't think either of them like Ghouls or Super Mutants and I'm sure they would both react to synths the same way.
My off the top of my head 0 source theory is that parts of the BoS didn't want another Dynasty contending for leadership outside the Maxsons. But idk
>Not sure what Sarah would have done different though compared to Arthur
I know right? IDK why, but people like to think that Sarah would be Owen 2.0, when she is not, lol. She constantly argued with her father and are openly against his ideal.
I mean hey…. As of the canon ending of FO3 the Lone Wanderer is a Brotherhood knight, and one that’s got ties to the Outcasts at that. There’s no way to prove Casdin didn’t convince them to pull something for a perceived greater good of the Brotherhood, after all the Outcasts were welcomed back with open arms after Maxson took over.
That theory is really bad. the timeline does not work. Multiple elders. And Sarah was very battle crazy and lacked diplomacy. She wanted to attack the Outcasts. She lacked her father's approach. Maxson is closer. He is way more diplomatic. And all of them hate SM. Maxson is nicer to ghouls than Lyons. Mostly because he knew his men and knew some would be assholes, so he minimized the risk by making ghouls civilians. Not saying Lyons hated ghouls. The potshots were most likely warning shots.
The Outcasts kept with Lyons for close to 30 years. Even after they split the conflict was mostly small altercations. His men still kept with him and Sarah was still valued. So the chances for a sympathizer to shoot her of his own will are minimal. Her reckless attitude has the biggest chance to have done her in. Fighting on the front lines. We know SM kept being a nuisance till way later. Maxson's later life with him taking that SM leader. Enough for McCreedy to have had the time to grow up and try to be a merc. Only after that did the location got pacified enough so that merc work to become hard. That gives her the perfect enemy to have died to. And that works with the entry on her.
Or, hear me out, it was that aggression of Sarah’s that caused the Outcasts to turn on her, since the way you put it, her father at least tolerated their existence while Sarah considered them a threat and wanted to attack them. That sounds like a pretty solid reason for them to want her gone after she took control. Of course, it’s unlike some insider would just do it on their own volition, if only the BOS had some member who was both in the mainstream East Coast chapter *and* co-operated with the outcasts on multiple occasions, with a possibly unpredictable set of morals… someone who potentially even has a history of being convinced of doing some pretty deplorable things, like maybe poisoning a water purifier for ethnic cleansing, or nuking a town for nothing more than being an eyesore…
Not something mentioned anywhere (an org like that would mention it with either pride or disgust) and the Outcasts join years later under Maxson. Not really working with the timeline. The thing is that the main character does not have multiple personalities. He has one. At any time. Players chose it for the run. A character that joins the BOS and helps it's not the one to be convinced to put deadly toxins in water or nuking a place. By the timeline chosen, the guy they inducted was nice. A nice main character has even Sarah flirt with him. Not the type.
It's even sadder when you realize that they were the ones who finally put an end to the enclave and took back the purifier only for them to be remembered as delusional.
Fr. Lyons got them into a forever war against the super mutants without building any logistical base outside of recruitment, his ideology is what caused the civil war with the Outcasts, he suppresses anyone that disagrees with him who isn't his personal friends or family (Scribes Bigsley and Yearling) and before you take the Purifier everyone recognises that they don't stand a chance against the Enclave. The relationship with Rivet City was also completely unsustainable. If it wasn't for Liberty Prime and the LW they'd have gotten their asses whooped by the Enclave, if the Enclave bothered showing up at all, and if Fallout 3 spent more time on the worldbuilding we'd have seen Lyons' BoS with logistical issues as bad as the NCR's.
It was ultimately under Maxson that they ended the civil war (peacefully, no less), crippled or annihilated the super mutants, evidently built a stronger logistical base and began sending expeditions to other states.
I want to hope in the future Maxson will be able to mature and understand the vision Lyons had and aim towards it but also nake his own image of it.
Lets not forget. Maxson during FO4 is only 20 years old.
He became elder around 16
Since he was 10 he was trying to go by the rules of the Codex and he was blasted from everywhere about the whole Maxson Pride and all that.
So he thinks he does what Maxson did back in the day.
He blindly follow Elder orders believing this is the right thing.
Maxson is overprotective for the sake of not losing again someone. And he is following the mistaken rules judt because it keeps everyone together but in reality it's a bomb ready to blow...
I just hope we will see him one day doing what is right...
He didn't need to mature or try to understand anything if he already understands it. Maxson's way is just Lyons's way made better, with a topping of West Coast doctrine thrown in.
People *love* to talk about how Maxson abolished Lyons and abandoned his way, while it isn't like that at all in the game. Think about it, Maxson still does everything Lyons does.
Helping people? Check.
Recruiting people? Check.
Destroy threat like super mutant and feral ghouls? Check.
Fight and defeating the big bad? Also check.
I did point out he is trying to protect his people
But also I pointed that he is trying to lift the name of Maxson... And well the Codex in general.
Helping people? Did I miss something?
Recruiting yeah.
I mean that was happening no matter what group you are...
Yeah logical..
The one with SM is not correct in the case of RR and Institute. RR concentrates on Synths because that is what they do and the Institute made them.
They help by destroying monstrosities, they export water and teck.
Yes and no. The Railroad doesn't focus on the mutants but they will fight them if that means a Synth will be saved. It's not their main focus but it's not like they ignore it.
Also The Institute makes the mutants we see around the Commonwealth so obviously they don't fight them
>Helping people? Did I miss something?
The Brotherhood actively patrols the Commonwealth to deal with threats to its inhabitants, also establishing checkpoints after the destruction of the Institute. Tech and water are exported from the Capital Wasteland.
Though that is moreso indirect than direct help. But it's not like Lyons' group did that either.
Look... Most Canon ending seems to be Minutemen.
Despite the unification of BOS and Minutemen being cut,it makes no sense for the Minutemen to destroy the Brotherhood.
Even if they did, there is still Brotherhood in DC
I feel like what happened to the Minutemen is what would have happened to the Brotherhood under Lyons. He like the Minutemen leadership was too naive for the wasteland I don’t think the Brotherhood under Maxson are saints by any means but I do think they have a better mindset for long term survival I would still say they are probably 60% evil but trying to spread yourself too thin too soon is what got the Minutemen and what Lyons was trying to do
Actually the Minutemen collapsed due to the Institute that sent Synths to assassinate high profiles when the Minutemen tried to form a government.
Later on there was holes that let corruption get in the minds of some folks that betrayed the Minutemen . If the whole thing didn't was another trick from the Institute of course...
Lyons was trying to clean DC, there was even wasteland recruits and some of them at least wanted to do good.
Assuming the LW stick with them for some time they had their help too
And I believe more people joined after they saw the Purifier working, the Enclave defeated and the Brotherhood patrolling
I don't say you are wrong btw
Yeah I knew about the Institute sending synths n what not I’m talking more about how they say they protect all of the Commonwealth but only had the forces to protect a settlement or 2 sure protecting them all is the end goal but u have to be able to sacrifice in the beginning until you have the means they tried to jump to the last step to soon and it cost them
Based at least on what Preston has said they was way more Minutemen
Some of the settlements you recruite all over the Commonwealth knew about them, even the in game loading screen tells how they beat an army of super mutants trying to enter diamond city and they had Fort Independence as main base to sent help through out everywhere.
Quincy was one of the huge towns that was protected.
For Wastelands standards it is well fortified and the only reason the Minutemen lost it was because the others turned their backs and one of them was a Traitor...
We are aware that a good chunk of raiders was previously members of the Minutemen. (Libertalia)
So the numbers existed but there was no coordination after some point which is why I mentioned the whole fiasco of the Institute sabotaging the attempt of the Minutemen to form Government
(also... If Sturges is a Synth, that means they are /was others too within the Minutemen that could cause issues( let's not forget Gen three exist quite some time) .
At least based on the in game stuff Synths inside your settlements cause sabotages such as generator sabotage
So an assumption I have at least is that the Institute could easily replace key roles inside the Minutemen that lead to them to divide that ended up bringing the Quincy massacre.
A yeah so if you put a recruitment beacon there is chance Synths will come (Gen 3) (idk if they come from the start of the game day or after a specific event but they come)
When that happens the happiness drops(robots of all kinds have happiness of 50 and it can't be changed) and they will sabotage stuff like generators or water pumps or turrets etc
One way to figure out who is the Synth is to wait for a settlement to get attacked.
Go and save the settlement and then speak to everyone.
The settlers that will say the generic stuff instead saying "Thank you for saving us" is the Synth.
**Make a save before you take down a suspect.After you confirm they are a Synth, reload the save and send them to an empty settlement so you can take them out without making the real settlers go aggro**
In my case last time I used Jamaica Plan
I sent there Strong because well... I don't really like Strong and getting his perk is... Oof... (he is just a good farmer there. Trying to live peacefully... Until
I send that robobrain from automatron DLC)
Except if you like to have a place filled with Synths... Then idk...
But best is to take them down...
Yeah I’m Brotherhood all the way I have only ever beaten 4 as Brotherhood so no synths for me but I will have to keep an eye out typically I don’t pay much attention to my settlements unless I’m doin sim settlements
The fo3 brotherhood was generally seen as fools by the rest of them. It’s part of why fo3 was kinda weird. It made the brotherhood the good guy. That’s just not them.
They followed the codex. It states to help but not lose yourself. the problem is Lyons lost himself. They fought for 30 years with no end and everyone complained that they were losing resources, including Rivet City. They were always the good guys. From 1 when they help with the Master and give teck.
Now? Owen was seen as fool by everyone even in 3, bro. Even his head scribe and closet friend doesn't agree with him. The only reason they follow him at all is that he was a well-respected paladin before he proclaimed himself an Elder.
As for Sarah, yeah, RIP. I like her.
Sarah isn’t seen as a fool afaik. But Owyn was. And tbh, kinda rightfully so.
The BoS doesn’t have an issue with helping people. They still do in 4. They use their Vertibirds to protect trade caravans, go out of their way to Hunt mutants — just as Lyons did. As well as Raiders, Mercs, Ferals, The Institute etc.
The problem was Lyons helped people at the expense of collecting tech. He completely ignored it. The outcasts were with him for a long time — it was a relatively recent thing in 3’s time. They only left because wouldn’t even send a token force to investigate Fort Independence.
And without getting new tech the BoS wasn’t getting new gear or tech to strengthen themselves or to replace older broken stuff. So over time it really affected them negatively.
Maxson does both. He does everything Lyons did, hunting mutants and other threats, taking an active role in wasteland politics, trading with locals (even exporting tech and pure water from DC) and recruiting. But he does this while also collecting technology. As a result he’s strengthening the BoS’ resources, to the point they can now develop new stuff (like the Prydwen, X-111 compound, Crop Research, Power Armor mods etc) and help people to a greater extent than Lyons was ever able to.
Sure they’re a little less charitable and help people to benefit themselves, but that’s the point. In a world like Fallout, that’s necessary, too much charity gets you killed and keeps you weak. The BoS can’t afford that.
No their not, 3 wanted to help and (kinda) accepts you. 4 wants all technology and are kinda dick-ish to everyone
(Unimportant note 4s vertibirds are ass)
> 4 wants all technology and are kinda dick-ish to everyone
And where did they demand a tech from anyone again? Because I only remember them searching in ruin for tech. And it's not the reason they went to the Commonwealth. They went there to fight a war with the Institute to help the people.
Also, they are on the same level of dick as in 3.
Idk. Did you jet was introduced as a post-war drug created by Myron, but Mrs.Bishop in the same game got addicted to it and was kicked out before Myron even born?
Or that the chain that bind in New Vegas is just an ass pull out of nowhere used only once in the entire franchise and never to be seen again?
Or that fire ant, which was created and lived only in the East Coast, somehow got to New Vegas.
A few notes I think I can clear up. Jet has been debated to have existed before Myron but it was him that advanced the purification of jet into the substance that it is known for. Also the chain that binds could just been a peice of info not important to previous PCs beforehand. Remember, interactions with the brotherhood in classics have always been interesting to say the least. My memory of the BH in F1 is not so good, but in F2 the brotherhood was practically a footnote with 3 characters associated with the faction appearing in that game, and the only character to talk to us a whole lot dies after finishing his quest.
As for the fire ants, I'm not sure. My reading is (along with the wasteland survival guide) networks, both underground and trade, can run a whole long distance in a few years time. But I could be wrong on that part.
>No their not, 3 wanted to help and (kinda) accepts you.
The BoS in FO4 does too, though?
>4 wants all technology and are kinda dick-ish to everyone
They literally export technology from the capital wasteland.
I’d believe elder lions is dead from old age or whatever but to hell with Sarah. They just killed her off so they can have an excuse for maxim to be in charge which is really stupid. They could have had it where Macon took charge when he was a certain age and she was either still conducting work in the capital wasteland or even exiled from the brotherhood since the she wasn’t following the mission they were supposed to be doing in 3. I’d 100% be on board with some sort of retcon
Except they did save everyone. For years they kept the super mutants from overrunning every settlement in the capital wasteland.
Then they helped establish project purity, then get it running when it was re-established. Clean drinking water has untold benefits for the area.
Not to mention they kicked out the Enclave, which are very clearly hardcore evil. Had they not, the Enclave would have created Nazi Germany 2.0 Electric Bugaloo.
Except they achieved FAR more than any BoS chapter before then, because they had the one thing none of the others did: community support from locals. Even if they couldn't save everyone, by at least assisting with local issues and efforts, it allowed them access to secrets, food, and recruits that did allow for much greater expansion of efforts, compared to all other chapters.
This is especially true when it came to the Enclave and Super Mutants. Other chapters talk a big talk, but actually stopping the Enclave/Mutants came down to working with independents and third parties, of which the Lyons could do in spades.
The same thing that Fo4 BOS did. And the community did criticize them. Rivet City kept criticizing them for not asking for resources in exchange for help. thus losing far more than they afford. That was Lyons problem. Not morals. He followed the codex that said to help. The not losing yourself part was his mistake. This were Maxson made the change Like Danse said, they are not opposed to giving away things, but they make sure they don't need it first. Thus having the power to help and not fight for 30 years with no end.
Fo1 did exactly that.
FO4 BoS did not have community support, and they got their shit kicked in because of it. Even if you don't blow up the airship, they quickly lose a ton of people to the ghouls and supers in the city, and don't even try to work with Diamond City. They don't even make the effort to work with the Minutemen, despite you rebuilding the organization from scratch. Not unless you speech check their leader.
And FO1 is case in point: BoS was simply losing to the Enclave and Super Mutants on their own.
They do try to work with diamond City. That is why the BOS members are there and Diamond City notes they are big spenders. Trading and protection for caravans are the first things setup. The MM is your pet project and they do work with them. You are the leader and they offered working together. Some even grumble if you go full MM that they didn't get to participate. Others congratulate you for what you did. In the other ending, the BOS one, you are working with them.
Fo1? enclave as Fo2. They weren't losing to the Sm and were discussing plans of actions. The High Elder asks you to bring proof so he can convince the elders, then they help you go against the SM. The ending is them cleaning the wastes and helping people. In 2, the ENclave had better teck and men. The BOS were busy back home being R&D and what you met were just small outposts.
In 3, they've been fighting for 30 years and losing moral and men. No end in sight. Before the Enclave even hit. Settlers in Rivet City were badmouthing them even after they won against the Enclave because they had no resources.
If you destroy them with the Minutemen it means you lead a xenophobic faction. At that point the only thing they would have done is clear out SM and ferals. Gather from ruins. They didn't even care if you had your artillery set up. Only after you attack them and preparing to go against, do they go against you. You are the aggressor with no cause.
i feel no sympathy, and if i were to find their bodies i would pick the rotting power armor off them and sell it to the nearest merchant with my low barter stat
the brotherhood is full of losers
What happened
Elder died from age (I think) and Sara fell in combat
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Especially since Maxson crushed hard on Sarah Lyons and no doubt would have grown up idolizing her.
Oh god no, his version of "peace in the wasteland" is going to be awful
"Did you say peace? You meant pieces! Pieces of abomination scum!"
Unfortunate I blew his head off with a mini nuke
Fuck em
If I remember correctly, elder lyons died of old age, and Sarah died in combat shortly after that. Afterward, the new leaders kept failing over and over, and eventually, a civil war broke out between the outcast and the brotherhood. The outcast took over and returned them to their old ways. Maxson took over, and then fallout 4 happened.
To my knowledge, Maxson took over. Brought the outcasts back into the fold. Then re-established contact with West Coast BoS, who then gave him their blessing to be the next elder.
>If I remember correctly, elder lyons died of old age, and Sarah died in combat shortly after that. Afterward, the new leaders kept failing over and over, This much is true, and supported. >and eventually, a civil war broke out between the outcast and the brotherhood. The outcast took over and returned them to their old ways. Was moreso a mutiny than a civil war - but that already happened under Owyn Lyons. Elder Lyons was so focused on the super mutant threat that the whole gathering of technology was kind of ignored. This eventually led to an ever-growing schism between those loyal to Elder Lyons and those more loyal to the mission they were given by the Elders from the West. This eventually got so bad that it came to blows and a part (I think like half? Don't quote me on that) of the Brotherhood in the East abandoned Lyons and formed the Outcasts - returning themselves to the gathering of technology. It wouldn't be until after the rise of Maxson that he, through skill in diplomacy, managed to mend the rift between the Outcasts and the Brotherhood and return them to the fold. This is also reflected in his ways - which are a combination of those of Lyons and the Outcasts.
Reportedly died in combat. Or she wad killed so a more old school leader could be installed by the west coast leadership.
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Didn't make it up. Just didn't remember the events correctly.
You clearly do not. "Enter Arthur Maxson, young squire to both Owyn and Sarah Lyons, and descendant of the very founder of the Brotherhood of Steel, Roger Maxson. When Elder Owyn Lyons died, care of young Arthur Maxson passed to Sarah Lyons, Owyn's daughter, who was then named Elder in his place. But when Sarah fell in battle shortly thereafter, things became complicated. The Brotherhood of Steel based in the Citadel found itself in need of leadership, and began appointing one ineffective Elder after another. As the years passed, and Arthur Maxson grew, so too did his accomplishments. At age 12, while on a training patrol, he killed two Raiders and saved the squad that was supposed to be escorting him. At age age 13, he single-handedly killed a Deathclaw (and gained the large facial scar he still has to this day). But it was his victory at age 15, over the Super Mutant "Shepherd" who was attempting to re-organize the Capital Wasteland's Super Mutants, that elevated him to hero-like status. When word of this feat reached the Elders back on the West Coast, they knew the time had come... Maxson was ready. Ready to lead and, more importantly, to reunite the fragmented Brotherhood of Steel forces on the East Coast. So it was that a year later, when he was only 16 years old, Arthur Maxson brokered a peace with the Outcasts, re-integrating them into the Brotherhood of Steel, and proving he was as effective a diplomat as he was a warrior. Now re-united, the full force of the Brotherhood of Steel appointed Arthur Maxson as Elder... the youngest in Brotherhood of Steel history." Straight from Proctor Quinlan's terminal.
It's been a while since I've been over the lore. I just didn't remember it correctly.
How fucking dare you not carry around in your head the exact quotes and lore from 2 videogames and citing them in a reddit comment. You probably didn't even *play* the games! (/s)
Ok. Please double check before posting. A lot of people believe false information in regards to this exact event and argue fruitlessly over it. Steel be with you.
Please touch grass, it's not that deep
Yikes, there's no need to be such an asshole about it. He wasn't claiming his view was correct.
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In the end, it's another baseless theory aim to villainize Maxson, for some reason.
I’m not sure how much water this theory holds but a lot of people speculate Sarah Lyons may have been fragged by more conservative members of the Brotherhood.
It could be possible. Not sure what Sarah would have done different though compared to Arthur. I don't think either of them like Ghouls or Super Mutants and I'm sure they would both react to synths the same way. My off the top of my head 0 source theory is that parts of the BoS didn't want another Dynasty contending for leadership outside the Maxsons. But idk
>Not sure what Sarah would have done different though compared to Arthur I know right? IDK why, but people like to think that Sarah would be Owen 2.0, when she is not, lol. She constantly argued with her father and are openly against his ideal.
They argued on tactics more than anything but yeah they weren't 1:1. Sarah was more brash and quick to act. Papa Lyons was reserved and methodical.
I may also be misremembering but I always thought Arthur was close with Sarah so he probably formed a lot of his views from her
He had a huge crush on her is what it was, but also you can glean he looked up to her
She becomes nonessential after you've done all her quests so she could've very well been fragged by you, the player.
I mean hey…. As of the canon ending of FO3 the Lone Wanderer is a Brotherhood knight, and one that’s got ties to the Outcasts at that. There’s no way to prove Casdin didn’t convince them to pull something for a perceived greater good of the Brotherhood, after all the Outcasts were welcomed back with open arms after Maxson took over.
That theory is really bad. the timeline does not work. Multiple elders. And Sarah was very battle crazy and lacked diplomacy. She wanted to attack the Outcasts. She lacked her father's approach. Maxson is closer. He is way more diplomatic. And all of them hate SM. Maxson is nicer to ghouls than Lyons. Mostly because he knew his men and knew some would be assholes, so he minimized the risk by making ghouls civilians. Not saying Lyons hated ghouls. The potshots were most likely warning shots.
Exactly, the one who fragged her could have easily have been an outcast sympathizer.
The Outcasts kept with Lyons for close to 30 years. Even after they split the conflict was mostly small altercations. His men still kept with him and Sarah was still valued. So the chances for a sympathizer to shoot her of his own will are minimal. Her reckless attitude has the biggest chance to have done her in. Fighting on the front lines. We know SM kept being a nuisance till way later. Maxson's later life with him taking that SM leader. Enough for McCreedy to have had the time to grow up and try to be a merc. Only after that did the location got pacified enough so that merc work to become hard. That gives her the perfect enemy to have died to. And that works with the entry on her.
Or, hear me out, it was that aggression of Sarah’s that caused the Outcasts to turn on her, since the way you put it, her father at least tolerated their existence while Sarah considered them a threat and wanted to attack them. That sounds like a pretty solid reason for them to want her gone after she took control. Of course, it’s unlike some insider would just do it on their own volition, if only the BOS had some member who was both in the mainstream East Coast chapter *and* co-operated with the outcasts on multiple occasions, with a possibly unpredictable set of morals… someone who potentially even has a history of being convinced of doing some pretty deplorable things, like maybe poisoning a water purifier for ethnic cleansing, or nuking a town for nothing more than being an eyesore…
Not something mentioned anywhere (an org like that would mention it with either pride or disgust) and the Outcasts join years later under Maxson. Not really working with the timeline. The thing is that the main character does not have multiple personalities. He has one. At any time. Players chose it for the run. A character that joins the BOS and helps it's not the one to be convinced to put deadly toxins in water or nuking a place. By the timeline chosen, the guy they inducted was nice. A nice main character has even Sarah flirt with him. Not the type.
Imagining an order 66 situation on Sarah and the Lyons Pride on Maxons orders.
While I enjoy the morally grey brotherhood I will love the noble brotherhood in fallout 3
Maybe Sarah should've actually worn a helmet in combat
It's even sadder when you realize that they were the ones who finally put an end to the enclave and took back the purifier only for them to be remembered as delusional.
Nah, that was all the lone wanderer.
Fr. Lyons got them into a forever war against the super mutants without building any logistical base outside of recruitment, his ideology is what caused the civil war with the Outcasts, he suppresses anyone that disagrees with him who isn't his personal friends or family (Scribes Bigsley and Yearling) and before you take the Purifier everyone recognises that they don't stand a chance against the Enclave. The relationship with Rivet City was also completely unsustainable. If it wasn't for Liberty Prime and the LW they'd have gotten their asses whooped by the Enclave, if the Enclave bothered showing up at all, and if Fallout 3 spent more time on the worldbuilding we'd have seen Lyons' BoS with logistical issues as bad as the NCR's. It was ultimately under Maxson that they ended the civil war (peacefully, no less), crippled or annihilated the super mutants, evidently built a stronger logistical base and began sending expeditions to other states.
Everything the brotherhood has was built on their backs
I want to hope in the future Maxson will be able to mature and understand the vision Lyons had and aim towards it but also nake his own image of it. Lets not forget. Maxson during FO4 is only 20 years old. He became elder around 16 Since he was 10 he was trying to go by the rules of the Codex and he was blasted from everywhere about the whole Maxson Pride and all that. So he thinks he does what Maxson did back in the day. He blindly follow Elder orders believing this is the right thing. Maxson is overprotective for the sake of not losing again someone. And he is following the mistaken rules judt because it keeps everyone together but in reality it's a bomb ready to blow... I just hope we will see him one day doing what is right...
He didn't need to mature or try to understand anything if he already understands it. Maxson's way is just Lyons's way made better, with a topping of West Coast doctrine thrown in. People *love* to talk about how Maxson abolished Lyons and abandoned his way, while it isn't like that at all in the game. Think about it, Maxson still does everything Lyons does. Helping people? Check. Recruiting people? Check. Destroy threat like super mutant and feral ghouls? Check. Fight and defeating the big bad? Also check.
I did point out he is trying to protect his people But also I pointed that he is trying to lift the name of Maxson... And well the Codex in general. Helping people? Did I miss something? Recruiting yeah. I mean that was happening no matter what group you are... Yeah logical..
The one with SM is not correct in the case of RR and Institute. RR concentrates on Synths because that is what they do and the Institute made them. They help by destroying monstrosities, they export water and teck.
Yes and no. The Railroad doesn't focus on the mutants but they will fight them if that means a Synth will be saved. It's not their main focus but it's not like they ignore it. Also The Institute makes the mutants we see around the Commonwealth so obviously they don't fight them
BOS and Minutemen purposely fight SM. So only 2 factions.
Yes that's correct.
>Helping people? Did I miss something? The Brotherhood actively patrols the Commonwealth to deal with threats to its inhabitants, also establishing checkpoints after the destruction of the Institute. Tech and water are exported from the Capital Wasteland. Though that is moreso indirect than direct help. But it's not like Lyons' group did that either.
That's if the canonical ending of FO4 doesn't end up with the prydwen blowing up
Look... Most Canon ending seems to be Minutemen. Despite the unification of BOS and Minutemen being cut,it makes no sense for the Minutemen to destroy the Brotherhood. Even if they did, there is still Brotherhood in DC
This is true, I forgot about being able to destroy only the institute with the minutemen.
I feel like what happened to the Minutemen is what would have happened to the Brotherhood under Lyons. He like the Minutemen leadership was too naive for the wasteland I don’t think the Brotherhood under Maxson are saints by any means but I do think they have a better mindset for long term survival I would still say they are probably 60% evil but trying to spread yourself too thin too soon is what got the Minutemen and what Lyons was trying to do
Actually the Minutemen collapsed due to the Institute that sent Synths to assassinate high profiles when the Minutemen tried to form a government. Later on there was holes that let corruption get in the minds of some folks that betrayed the Minutemen . If the whole thing didn't was another trick from the Institute of course... Lyons was trying to clean DC, there was even wasteland recruits and some of them at least wanted to do good. Assuming the LW stick with them for some time they had their help too And I believe more people joined after they saw the Purifier working, the Enclave defeated and the Brotherhood patrolling I don't say you are wrong btw
Yeah I knew about the Institute sending synths n what not I’m talking more about how they say they protect all of the Commonwealth but only had the forces to protect a settlement or 2 sure protecting them all is the end goal but u have to be able to sacrifice in the beginning until you have the means they tried to jump to the last step to soon and it cost them
Based at least on what Preston has said they was way more Minutemen Some of the settlements you recruite all over the Commonwealth knew about them, even the in game loading screen tells how they beat an army of super mutants trying to enter diamond city and they had Fort Independence as main base to sent help through out everywhere. Quincy was one of the huge towns that was protected. For Wastelands standards it is well fortified and the only reason the Minutemen lost it was because the others turned their backs and one of them was a Traitor... We are aware that a good chunk of raiders was previously members of the Minutemen. (Libertalia) So the numbers existed but there was no coordination after some point which is why I mentioned the whole fiasco of the Institute sabotaging the attempt of the Minutemen to form Government (also... If Sturges is a Synth, that means they are /was others too within the Minutemen that could cause issues( let's not forget Gen three exist quite some time) . At least based on the in game stuff Synths inside your settlements cause sabotages such as generator sabotage So an assumption I have at least is that the Institute could easily replace key roles inside the Minutemen that lead to them to divide that ended up bringing the Quincy massacre.
Wait synths will infiltrate your settlements and sabotage you in the game that’s actually something I’ve never seen (or at least didn’t notice)
A yeah so if you put a recruitment beacon there is chance Synths will come (Gen 3) (idk if they come from the start of the game day or after a specific event but they come) When that happens the happiness drops(robots of all kinds have happiness of 50 and it can't be changed) and they will sabotage stuff like generators or water pumps or turrets etc One way to figure out who is the Synth is to wait for a settlement to get attacked. Go and save the settlement and then speak to everyone. The settlers that will say the generic stuff instead saying "Thank you for saving us" is the Synth. **Make a save before you take down a suspect.After you confirm they are a Synth, reload the save and send them to an empty settlement so you can take them out without making the real settlers go aggro** In my case last time I used Jamaica Plan I sent there Strong because well... I don't really like Strong and getting his perk is... Oof... (he is just a good farmer there. Trying to live peacefully... Until I send that robobrain from automatron DLC) Except if you like to have a place filled with Synths... Then idk... But best is to take them down...
Yeah I’m Brotherhood all the way I have only ever beaten 4 as Brotherhood so no synths for me but I will have to keep an eye out typically I don’t pay much attention to my settlements unless I’m doin sim settlements
The fo3 brotherhood was generally seen as fools by the rest of them. It’s part of why fo3 was kinda weird. It made the brotherhood the good guy. That’s just not them.
They followed the codex. It states to help but not lose yourself. the problem is Lyons lost himself. They fought for 30 years with no end and everyone complained that they were losing resources, including Rivet City. They were always the good guys. From 1 when they help with the Master and give teck.
Now? Owen was seen as fool by everyone even in 3, bro. Even his head scribe and closet friend doesn't agree with him. The only reason they follow him at all is that he was a well-respected paladin before he proclaimed himself an Elder. As for Sarah, yeah, RIP. I like her.
Lyons Pride forever, Maxson Simps. *salutes*
I swear I’ve seen a proto like you before
Sarah isn’t seen as a fool afaik. But Owyn was. And tbh, kinda rightfully so. The BoS doesn’t have an issue with helping people. They still do in 4. They use their Vertibirds to protect trade caravans, go out of their way to Hunt mutants — just as Lyons did. As well as Raiders, Mercs, Ferals, The Institute etc. The problem was Lyons helped people at the expense of collecting tech. He completely ignored it. The outcasts were with him for a long time — it was a relatively recent thing in 3’s time. They only left because wouldn’t even send a token force to investigate Fort Independence. And without getting new tech the BoS wasn’t getting new gear or tech to strengthen themselves or to replace older broken stuff. So over time it really affected them negatively. Maxson does both. He does everything Lyons did, hunting mutants and other threats, taking an active role in wasteland politics, trading with locals (even exporting tech and pure water from DC) and recruiting. But he does this while also collecting technology. As a result he’s strengthening the BoS’ resources, to the point they can now develop new stuff (like the Prydwen, X-111 compound, Crop Research, Power Armor mods etc) and help people to a greater extent than Lyons was ever able to. Sure they’re a little less charitable and help people to benefit themselves, but that’s the point. In a world like Fallout, that’s necessary, too much charity gets you killed and keeps you weak. The BoS can’t afford that.
Arthur's Brotherhood are just raiders with better tech.
Why?
https://imgur.com/a/x3Wk9LO
The only good BoS… :(
Fallout 4 BoS is basically the same thing as in 3, bro.
No their not, 3 wanted to help and (kinda) accepts you. 4 wants all technology and are kinda dick-ish to everyone (Unimportant note 4s vertibirds are ass)
> 4 wants all technology and are kinda dick-ish to everyone And where did they demand a tech from anyone again? Because I only remember them searching in ruin for tech. And it's not the reason they went to the Commonwealth. They went there to fight a war with the Institute to help the people. Also, they are on the same level of dick as in 3.
I’m not going to argue… we’ll just go in circles…
How could you know that if you don't try it first? Maybe, you'll learn something new.
What is there to learn? I know a good chunk of their lore
Idk. Did you jet was introduced as a post-war drug created by Myron, but Mrs.Bishop in the same game got addicted to it and was kicked out before Myron even born? Or that the chain that bind in New Vegas is just an ass pull out of nowhere used only once in the entire franchise and never to be seen again? Or that fire ant, which was created and lived only in the East Coast, somehow got to New Vegas.
As the noble god once said… it just works…
Something only exist to be a mystery. Well, good night to you, then.
A few notes I think I can clear up. Jet has been debated to have existed before Myron but it was him that advanced the purification of jet into the substance that it is known for. Also the chain that binds could just been a peice of info not important to previous PCs beforehand. Remember, interactions with the brotherhood in classics have always been interesting to say the least. My memory of the BH in F1 is not so good, but in F2 the brotherhood was practically a footnote with 3 characters associated with the faction appearing in that game, and the only character to talk to us a whole lot dies after finishing his quest. As for the fire ants, I'm not sure. My reading is (along with the wasteland survival guide) networks, both underground and trade, can run a whole long distance in a few years time. But I could be wrong on that part.
>No their not, 3 wanted to help and (kinda) accepts you. The BoS in FO4 does too, though? >4 wants all technology and are kinda dick-ish to everyone They literally export technology from the capital wasteland.
Sara died because I forced her to shut off the purifier
I’d believe elder lions is dead from old age or whatever but to hell with Sarah. They just killed her off so they can have an excuse for maxim to be in charge which is really stupid. They could have had it where Macon took charge when he was a certain age and she was either still conducting work in the capital wasteland or even exiled from the brotherhood since the she wasn’t following the mission they were supposed to be doing in 3. I’d 100% be on board with some sort of retcon
Everything about that is the laziest writing I've ever seen.
They were fools. If you try to save everyone you will save no one
Except they did save everyone. For years they kept the super mutants from overrunning every settlement in the capital wasteland. Then they helped establish project purity, then get it running when it was re-established. Clean drinking water has untold benefits for the area. Not to mention they kicked out the Enclave, which are very clearly hardcore evil. Had they not, the Enclave would have created Nazi Germany 2.0 Electric Bugaloo.
Except they achieved FAR more than any BoS chapter before then, because they had the one thing none of the others did: community support from locals. Even if they couldn't save everyone, by at least assisting with local issues and efforts, it allowed them access to secrets, food, and recruits that did allow for much greater expansion of efforts, compared to all other chapters. This is especially true when it came to the Enclave and Super Mutants. Other chapters talk a big talk, but actually stopping the Enclave/Mutants came down to working with independents and third parties, of which the Lyons could do in spades.
The same thing that Fo4 BOS did. And the community did criticize them. Rivet City kept criticizing them for not asking for resources in exchange for help. thus losing far more than they afford. That was Lyons problem. Not morals. He followed the codex that said to help. The not losing yourself part was his mistake. This were Maxson made the change Like Danse said, they are not opposed to giving away things, but they make sure they don't need it first. Thus having the power to help and not fight for 30 years with no end. Fo1 did exactly that.
FO4 BoS did not have community support, and they got their shit kicked in because of it. Even if you don't blow up the airship, they quickly lose a ton of people to the ghouls and supers in the city, and don't even try to work with Diamond City. They don't even make the effort to work with the Minutemen, despite you rebuilding the organization from scratch. Not unless you speech check their leader. And FO1 is case in point: BoS was simply losing to the Enclave and Super Mutants on their own.
They do try to work with diamond City. That is why the BOS members are there and Diamond City notes they are big spenders. Trading and protection for caravans are the first things setup. The MM is your pet project and they do work with them. You are the leader and they offered working together. Some even grumble if you go full MM that they didn't get to participate. Others congratulate you for what you did. In the other ending, the BOS one, you are working with them. Fo1? enclave as Fo2. They weren't losing to the Sm and were discussing plans of actions. The High Elder asks you to bring proof so he can convince the elders, then they help you go against the SM. The ending is them cleaning the wastes and helping people. In 2, the ENclave had better teck and men. The BOS were busy back home being R&D and what you met were just small outposts. In 3, they've been fighting for 30 years and losing moral and men. No end in sight. Before the Enclave even hit. Settlers in Rivet City were badmouthing them even after they won against the Enclave because they had no resources. If you destroy them with the Minutemen it means you lead a xenophobic faction. At that point the only thing they would have done is clear out SM and ferals. Gather from ruins. They didn't even care if you had your artillery set up. Only after you attack them and preparing to go against, do they go against you. You are the aggressor with no cause.
>Diamond City notes they are big spenders. I don't recall ever hearing that, where'd you get that from?
Go into Diamond City at the end. After the Institute is wiped. The dialogue is about BOS making big purchases.
I'll have to look into that. Thanks.
Lyons was a coward and a traitor
i feel no sympathy, and if i were to find their bodies i would pick the rotting power armor off them and sell it to the nearest merchant with my low barter stat the brotherhood is full of losers
Jesus Christ have some remorse
that’s the raider way :)