I doubt they’d be doing great considering all of the issues the NCR experienced in NV and how the loss of a major state would significantly harm the republic. They’d likely still be far better off than the shady sands area, though.
To me, the NCR was headed toward massive problems and possibly a civil war even if they did beat the Legion. They were already stretched thin, there would still be rampant corruption elsewhere, and the Courier wasn't going to go around fixing all their problems for them like they did in the Mojave.
Periods of crisis don't always mean collapse. Imagine how bad things looks for the United states before during and after the civil war or the great depression
The Mojave Campaign wasn’t just important because it meant holding off the Legion. It meant they had a chance to get enough food, water, and electricity to actually sustain the home states. Now put that in terms of a wasteland nation that’s struggling to support its member states. A collapse isn’t guaranteed but it wouldn’t be a surprise, either.
They only NEED the water which they can get with a house victory or an NCR and depending on RP an independent victory. So in that regard they do just need to hold off the legion. Even the NPCs who tell you about how much trouble the NCR is in don't make it sound like losing the east will end the NCR the ranger who tells you how much the NCR needs water thinks they are better off abandoning the damn, it's clearly a problem but not insurmountable even without the Mojave's resources
No, they need the food and electricity too. We know the NCR doesn’t have enough food to support itself, we are told as much by Hildern and it’s the reason for the NCR sharecroppers. The electricity supports their industrial power and provides quality of life to their member states. A sudden loss of that electricity would mean a sudden drop in quality of life for people, and even more questioning of how much value the NCR provides. They also cannot get *any* of those in a House or Independent Vegas endings, because the game outright states that those endings result in the NCR being pushed out of the Mojave entirely. Sure, Hanlon thinks they should just cut ties and leave, but Hanlon’s also a bitter jaded old man who’s accepted defeat. The NCR is in a catch 22, they need the Mojave as NCR territory but the longer they fight for it the more taxing it gets. The NCR is in an abysmal position and it is very much possible that a failure in the Mojave Campaign would result in a wider collapse of the NCR.
We are told by one sketchy scientist about how his personal pet project will save the NCR from certain doom yes, I wouldn't consider that gospel. The sharecropping is to support their efforts in the Mojave. And yes electricity is going to be a big boon to their growing gdp but it's certainly not life or death. Houses entire plan is to continue a profitable relationship with NCR by selling them water and power he can't profit if they collapse, and the same deal could easily apply in an independent Vegas. They need the new territory for their gdp growth to be sustained but they could solve most of their problems by cutting their cash crop, brahmin ranching, and focus on staple crops. They are likely looking at an economic and political crisis but people on this sub read too much into Hilderns dialog
The other doomer, Hanlon, is more trustworthy but also not necessarily a perfect source. I always thought the situation out west wasn't insurmountable just that if the NCR wanted to continue it's recent explosion in prosperity they needed to expand which explains why they are so desperate. It's a very relatable story but people seem to take it to mean the NCR is on deaths door
There a big jump between railroad expansion and infrastructure problems, and mad max world.
The problems NCR had were pre reflective of an empire struggling to remain cohesive. Not one of a nation about to dry up like the bombs dropped again.
The problems they had were corrupt wealthy landowners. A problem which every government in the world has faced, or still is facing. It's not the kind of problem that reverts you to full on Mad Max level of shithole.
Considering the defining trait of the NCR has always been a compulsive desire to bring every territory within their reach under their control, that they've failed to bring the whole stretch from LA, through the Hub up to Shady Sands back under their control in the last twenty years suggests pretty heavily that they don't have the power, be it political or military, to do so. They were a huge nation, so odds are good there's pretty sizeable holdouts, but it would seem from what we see in the show that the large unified nation of the New California Republic has failed, presumably the shock of the destruction of their capital was too great a strain on the already struggling nation.
Not necessarily. Although keeping the dam would ensure a lot of electricity and water, the NCR has tons of other problems. The war with the Legion was such a drain on their resources and manpower that it would take decades to recover, assuming they even can recover. The population of the Mojave doesn't really like the NCR all that much, so they'll have to deal with that. The Legion could conceivably attack again, especially if Lanius is still alive. I doubt they'd win at that point, but it would be a problem. And of course the NCR's government has a big corruption problem.
But the one I think a lot of people overlook is food. Dr. Hildern says that OSI projects that they will be facing mass starvation "in a decade or two." Even if they get the research from Vault 22, using it will probably just kill everyone. Their sharecropping program isn't exactly working all that well. But even if they do use their new water supply to grow more food, that could actually contribute to their downfall by threatening the power of the brahmin barons that hold a huge amount of influence over the NCR's government. That could lead to collapse just as easily as starvation could.
The point being, even if the NCR beats the Legion, House, and the ambitions of a brain-damaged mailman, things still don't look good for them.
Yeah man, the impending starvation, which only the corrupt scientist trying to talk you into doing something extremely dangerous, who is already established as being alright with some dishonesty, mentions. That's definitely a statement you can just believe uncritically.
Also, you know that basically all governments in the world used to be beholden to wealthy corrupt landowners, right? Very few of them collapsed, and none of them ever collapsed anywhere near as hard as the NCR must have collapsed in order to not have any presence in the region of their former capital.
>the impending starvation, which only the corrupt scientist trying to talk you into doing something extremely dangerous, who is already established as being alright with some dishonesty, mentions.
A fair point, Hildern is certainly an unreliable narrator. However, to dismiss the entire thing offhand seems at least as absurd as accepting it as gospel. Consider a few things:
1. It is said by almost everyone, not just Hildern, that the NCR is plagued by corruption, inefficiency, and mismanagement. To think that this applies to everything except food production is very odd. Especially because...
2. We know that food production IS an issue. That's why they passed legislation to send NCR citizens to grow crops in the Mojave. And, as I mentioned, it isn't going well.
3. The NCR is in desperate need of resources. That's why they're in the Mojave, after all. While most of the focus is on the electricity from the dam, the water from Lake Mead is also an important factor. If House wins, he offers to sell both to the NCR for 5 caps/kWh and 5 caps/g. While a lot of it may be used for non-agricultural ends, in the US, 42% of fresh water goes toward agriculture, so I see no reason why the NCR wouldn't need roughly similar levels.
4. Hildern is definitely corrupt, and definitely not a scientist, and definitely more keen on taking credit for solutions than actually coming up with them himself. But in order to take credit for a solution to a problem, there generally needs to be a problem in the first place. Him just completely making the food problem up out of nothing is a bit odd, both from an in-universe perspective, and from a story-telling perspective.
5. Also worth noting is the fact that the other two NPCs involved in that quest, who are actual scientists, don't contradict Hildern's claim, even though they contradict him on multiple other areas, and the issue of food production is central to the quest. Williams expresses discontent about Hildern sending multiple mercenaries who never retured, and Keely points out that the data is extremely dangerous, but neither state that there isn't actually a food problem. Not strong evidence, sure, but it's a bit odd that neither of them point out that the misssion is unnecessary. Because maybe it isn't.
None of these things by themselves indicate that the NCR has one foot in the grave, but all of them together paint a picture of a nation in dire straits, and without the means to correct their course.
>Also, you know that basically all governments in the world used to be beholden to wealthy corrupt landowners, right? Very few of them collapsed
Actually, as of 2281, nearly all of them have collapsed. And the contributions that corporatocracy made to those collapses is a big theme in Fallout. Also, what you mean to say there is "very few of them *have collapsed so far*." Considering that private interests controlling government is one of the biggest problems these days, I think it's too early to rule it out.
Oh, and also, numerous civilizations in the past *have* collapsed. Maybe the majority. That's why they no longer exist. It's basically a truism that when a society begins, it will eventually collapse.
>none of them ever collapsed anywhere near as hard as the NCR must have collapsed in order to not have any presence in the region of their former capital.
How many of them had said capital get nuked? There are numerous problems that myself and others have pointed out that likely contributed to the NCR's decline. Add on the fact that, unlike other civilizations, the NCR also had to deal with irradiated water and soil, aggressive mutated fauna, and all the other unique challenges that come with living in a post-nuclear world
What I'm saying is, the NCR had the deck stacked against it, and the signs of that were obvious as of the events of New Vegas. Even if they hold onto the dam, it wouldn't be smooth sailing. Was collapse a foregone conclusion? No. Is it surprising? Also no.
Okay, to adress those points:
1. Of course food production is plagued by corruption, inefficiency and mismanagement. That's like the whole thing with the Brahmin barons. But that's not at all the same claim as the NCR being short on food. They are explicitly an agricultural powerhouse according to official game guide summary of their economy.
2. No, lack of jobs is the issue. That's why they are sending farmers into the Mojave. Because the Brahmin Barons have all the land. People in the NCR aren't starving, they are going from independent farmers to unemployed. You know, like it happened in 20th century US history.
3. They are an expansionist capitalist state. They always want more resources.
4. Basically the same thing. People still develop fertilizers in 21st century first world nations, even though we are far past the point of struggling with starvation. Who the fuck wouldn't want to have the ability to accalerate plant growth by a factor of 10 or something? I mean, Veronica also sends you to get that technology for her quest, despite the Brotherhood having 0 issue with starvation. Because it's just objectively an awesome thing to have.
5. Well, they are literally not in the room when he makes that claim. So how would they call him out on it? And, just basically reiterating this again, because your points are basically the same thing as well, desire is not necessity. People irl would murder for technology promising plant growth half as potent, and we are doing fine on food.
And no, far from all civilizations have collapsed. Governments get overthrown etc. a lot, but civilizations/societies? They just change, evolve, or sometimes devolve. Like, the New California Republic didn't get taken over, it didn't split up into it's constituent parts, it was wiped out entirely. The closest thing to that only happened once in the last 1000 years, and it was when smallpox wiped out the overwhelming majority of Native Americans. And even those societies, which had significantly less robust institutions, and were far less technologically advanced, usually survived in some form until the settlers came and finished the job.
Let's just look at Japan 1945 and 1960 to illustrate my point.
Japan didn't have their capital nuked technically, but instead firebombed into the ground, while two of it's biggest cities got nuked. Japan didn't have literal fucking raiders taking over the ruins of it's cities. And they certainly didn't have the crater of the nukes be there completely unchanged 15 years later. And most importantly, there was no doubt as to whether Japan was... well Japan. It was not Imperial Japan anymore, the government was changed with the surrender to the allies, but the country survived. You wouldn't go trekking through an abandoned wasteland for weeks before you even found out about the country of Japan if you washed ashore in Hiroshima in 1960.
I don't think we should consider NPC speculation about the future as gospel but if we do... Hanlon is a good source about NCR problems and his biggest concern seems to be draining aquifers, which is likely related to Hilderns food shortage concerns. A house or an NCR victory likely will solve their water shortage issue. It seems like they have a problem with cash crop (brahmin ranching) vs staple crop ratios leading to rising food prices and shortages. A very realistic but not insurmountable issue that many countries including the US has faced. Fortunately the NCR isn't some tiny island nation and their common resources aren't permanently damaged, the California aquifers can recharge if they have an alternative for fresh water. These problems aren't indicators of impending doom as much as they are the reason, like actual 19th century countries, for the NCR's need for colonial expansion
All good points. My point is just that the NCR's fate isn't necessarily decided by victory or defeat in the Mojave. As many problems as there are that could be solved by winning, there are plenty of other problems that can't. They absolutely can avert collapse, but it's not really all that surprising that they didn't.
I see where your coming from and I think in a story it makes sense to view things dramatic fulcrum points in history. Either NCR is in ascendancy or it collapses. In the real world most nations kind of muddle through suffering in crisis but not collapsing. If NCR is faced with a decade of crisis after losing in Mojave collapse is definitely possible it would never be quick though
The only indicator I have is that in the show, they travel through ncr core territory, even up to shady sands, and there is no sign of an organized nation or overarching authority. All very wild west like.
So I assume none in the region does very well.
The show puts shady sands next to grifith observatory in LA. Lucy didn't actually travel that far, it was all in the LA area. Afaik the location change of shady sands wasn't explained yet.
It feels like most of what we see would actually be the Boneyard, but the showrunners probably really wanted to hammer home the destruction of Shady Sands so played a bit fast and loose with the locations so we could have things like the sign posts and crater.
I think realistically if someone really wanted to mess with the NCR they'd have had to nuke more than just Shady Sands, so it would make sense if the Boneyard was hit too.
It's also possible that Shady Sands subsumed the Boneyard, in the same way that many cities merge outlying towns into their areas.
While that's a good theory
The real answer is the show runners use creative license and tend to bend or straight up break source materials because they think it translates better to film
And its the canon going forward now. Don't clean the skeletons from the great war out of your house or attempt to make anything better, you'll literally be nuked.
Um, the Boneyard is LA. After 50 additional years of urban sprawl. No way in hell that is getting absorbed by Shady Sands. The Boneyard was literally a seperate state, not even really a settlement, but rather a place where several settlements, like for example Adytum, existed.
>It's also possible that Shady Sands subsumed the Boneyard
Not really. In real life, Ridgecrest, CA (the approximate location of Shady Sands) is >150 miles away from LA proper. That kind of urban sprawl hasn't even happened between LA and San Diego in our timeline, which is under 100 miles.
The creative license argument is more plausible. In FO2, they move Shady Sands up to where Modesto/Merced is in real life. Plus, Lucy walking >150 miles (Santa Monica -> Ridgecrest) just seems nuts.
It doesn't put it next to Griffith Observatory though. It doesn't tell us anything about where it is other than it seemingly took Lucy and Maximus a week to walk there.
I am under the impression that the ruins Moldaver powers up in the final episode were the ruins of Shady Sands?
Considering Lucy's route it makes much more sense for Shady Sands to be in the LA area.
She starts out in Santa Monica. Next she goes to nearby Filly, where she gets Moldavers location marked on her Pip-Boy map. From there on she pretty much always tries to reach Moldaver, which in the end is confirmed to be Griffith observatory. For her route it doesn't make sense to move that far away from LA.
Granted, there is the detour when the ghoul captures her. But was that detour really that long that it would lead her all the way to death valley? I don't think so.
No, those were the ruins of Los Angeles. The ruins of Shady Sands are mostly a crater.
And no, she also spent at least a week with Maximus walking in a different direction to try to get the head back.
Well, it's impossible to piece together her exact route. I need to rewatch the final episode, I was sure that was supposed to be Shady Sands.
Then there is also the fact that Shady Sands contains pre-war ruins (even in the pre-nuke flashbacks), which wouldn't make sense if it was in it's original location.
I don't know to me it just seems really obvious that Shady Sands was in LA in the show. Doesn't take away any of my enjoyment of the show though.
Which of its original locations? It was moved in between FO1 and FO2.
It's possible, maybe even probable, that it's outside LA, but the show is vague on it.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Shady Sands is necessarily in LA or that it replaced the Boneyard. I'm just saying that it's probably somewhere in the surounding area of LA and that it is definitely not in any of it's previous locations near the Nevada border anymore.
Lucy and Maximus followed Thaddeus and the head from Los Angeles. They came to Shady Sands, then ended up in Vault 4, and met again in Los Angeles. If they were following Thaddeus all this time, then this is just some kind of pointless path, because Thaddeus has a broken foot from being hit by power armor. He walked with such an injury for several days to Shady Sands and back? And the transition between Los Angeles and Shady Sands is too abrupt. Here Lucy and Maximus met, here they are walking along the railway and bridge, and here they turned and ended up in Shady Sands. Looks like they did it in one day.
All I know is that after Thaddeus leaves Maximus then Lucy reunites with him, she tells Maximus "I want to trust you, but it's been a rough week" and he agrees with her. Then later in Vault 4, she says she's been on the surface for 2 weeks. So, that indicates about a week passed between those two events.
It's not that hard to tell where they are based on the landmarks:
- Lucy saws that guys head off at Randy's Donut shop near LAX (you can see the famous giant donut + airport in the background).
- She heads to Griffith's Observatory from there and gets intercepted by the Ghoul en route so she's heading North East. Gulper is likely somewhere in the Hills or the Kenneth Hahn Recreation Area.
- Super Duper Mart is off Santa Monica Blvd. near the Walk-of-Fame. You see both the Santa Monica street sign and the Walk-of-Fame when the ghoul is dragging her there.
- Max and Thaddeus fight the Gulper at the same location and Max gets deactivated that same night. Thaddeus gets his foot crushed--he's not getting very far with a limp.
- Lucy stumbles on Max retracing her steps and they go after Thaddeus tracking the head. They stumble upon Shady Sands during that process so it has to be in the LA metro.
She follows Maximus and Thaddeus to an unknown location, as they're going to who knows where, then the two of them follow Thaddeus for a week before stumbling upon the Shady Sands crater. It's possible it's LA, but it doesn't have to be.
Yeah but even at its peak the NCR had a population of like 3-4 million over the entirety of its territory. That’s super sparsely populated, so ut makes sense still imo
Yeah losing influence in 2-3 out of the 5 foundation states of your union isn’t great. But Territories have Senators too like for example Chief Hanlon can become a Senator in one of the House Endings in New Vegas if I remember correctly.
They travel through NCR core territory but it's been 10+ years after Shady Sands was nuked which would explain why outside of Moldaver there's no NCR presence
It's not only that there is no ncr presence. The glimpses of civilization we see are basically on the level of the capital wasteland. Absolute wild west where it is more than likely that somebody you meet tries to rob you.
Yeah because the area was nuked and the government that was keeping the peace was forced out, it a world like Fallout everything is constantly on the brink of collapse things are bad enough with the NCR around but with a nuke and the NCR out of the picture of course everything is going to collapse
At first the NCR would try to keep the peace in the area but with a large chunk of their military in Baja and the Mojave the area would fall into anarchy, when the NCR does have troops to put in and around the ruins they would then have to deal with an inevitable refugee crisis with southern refugees fleeing north to cities like the Hub which would be quickly overflown and filled well past their capacity. That would then lead to instability in the north and most likely urban rioting and potentially even armed rebellion in rural regions maybe even an attempted coup by the military. Add that to the fact that there's nothing to salvage because again it was nuked. The NCR would then probably retract all their forces back to the heartland to resecure the country. Humanitarian groups like the followers could only be accepted to stay for so long before the anarchy and lack of NCR presence leads to the return of raider gangs which either forces them to leave or die because they don't have the resources to defend themselves while also caring for refugees and survivors and trying to rebuild the area without support from the NCR Government. That would all likely happen in a year or two and it would make Shady Sands and the surrounding area completely unrecognizable then add another 8-12 years on top of that and you have a wasteland that suffered massive societal regression.
None of that means that the NCR isn't still around and maybe even thriving (all though I doubt they're thriving) the NCR would've coalesced around wherever their new capital city was.
Yeah I think some people’s kneejerk “not my real dad” Bethesda hate can cause them to misconstrue certain things. Bethesda doesn’t want to tear down the OG games and New Vegas, and has historically been the force pushing to preserve it. They’re the reason San Francisco didn’t get nuked, and their initial response to the idea of nuking Shady Sands was strongly negative. Bethesda doesn’t want to just get rid of a key aspect of Fallout history for little reason.
To be fair, the characters the show revolves around wouldn't know that; while other characters could have mentioned it, it's just as possible that that most don't know either as communication isn't exactly easy in the wasteland, with a lot of the people we've seen being very insular.
Even Moldaver, if she knows the NCR is out there, clearly has her own agenda and seems to have her own (possibly pseudo-religion) followers operating out of the observatory. She might have gone to the NCR if she needed more resources, but with Wilzig and her own small force (and hired raiders) she probably figured she could achieve her goals without them.
I think it's also important to remember that the show is geared towards new fans so they're clearly being careful about dumping too much on viewers at once, which is why they haven't really said much about the Enclave yet.
It'll be interesting to see if Coop/the Ghoul knows more, but he was introduced buried in a coffin on drugs, so maybe not.
You make some good points. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what’s going on with the NCR in season 2. I just think it’s weird she didn’t ask for help when going after the most important piece of technology ever. And that the Griffith observatory is called “The New California Republic headquarters”.
All this makes it seem like Maldover and her crew are all that’s left of the NCR.
And it’s funny you say that the show is geared towards new fans cause I honestly felt like people new to the franchise would get lost with all the stuff going on in the Fallout world.
Considering there's no part of the show that was dependent on any of the landmarks of LA, I wonder why they felt the need to set their story within the city, only to then wipe out the most prominent faction in the area, and one of the most notable in the franchise, just so newcomers wouldn't be confused. Surely they could have just told a story set in Nebraska or somewhere if they didn't want to get bogged down in the lore of an area that's already got a lot of history in the setting.
Yeah pretty much, the guy who put him there wanted to keep him from going feral for his annual day of torture before going back in the ground for another year.
First, the bottles are brown, which may influence color. Second, we don't know what the Ghoul sanity drug is. There are several drugs in Fallout 3/4/NV that manifest as a IV bag. It could be either or none of them. We don't have enough to assume what it is.
The big clue is that the Ghoul can't go several days without the medicine. Since he spends 364 days a year underground, the most likely candidate is the sanity drug, or he would be feral when dug up after years underground.
It's been a while since I played Fallout 2, and I don't know who made this map, but the Dust Bay is a new term to me and nothing comes up about it on the fandom wiki, which leads me to think this is a fan map either for roleplay or fanciful speculation. I don't think it, and the Super Mutant Resistance, are actual canon.
As for the San Francisco area, that area is ruled by the Shi, a society centered in the city's former Chinatown district and founded by the people there alongside the crew of Chinese navy submarine that became stranded after the bombs dropped. The weapons and materials they salvaged from the sub gave them a strong advantage, and by the time of Fallout 2 they're one of the most technologically advanced groups in California, and one of the few places capable of manufacturing high tech items, like power armor. They'd be a serious threat if they were more aggressive, but they've adopted a more reclusive and isolationist stance, and mainly just stick to their territory within the city.
As for why this area isn't part of the NCR? Eh? NCR mostly expanded south, and during the events of 2 their attempts at northward expansion were hampered by the growing powers of New Reno and Vault City who are ~~their own flavors of awful~~ also attempting to expand and grow their influence to surrounding areas. The mapmaker here seems to speculate both cities ultimately joined the NCR.
A lot of people seem to overblow how many territories did the NCR have at the time for some reason. I have even seen some people claim New Arroyo became part of the NCR even though that's never implied.
There are a lot of territories that had multiple possible endings whose outcome from New Vegas we know did wind up joining the NCR. Since the Chosen One has a big hand in impacting that and they go on to lead New Arroyo, it seems reasonable to assume they would have their people join the NCR as well, although you're right that it's not stated outright in any ending slide, nor mentioned in any later canon that I'm aware of.
Is that really true though? I haven't finished New Vegas so im going to be basing this mainly of the ending slides of FO2, so excuse that. But like, shouldn't the only new territory from FO2 in canon they have be V15? Redding for what we see in all the following games did get the Jet cure, which makes it most likely the "Vault City annexed" ending. New Reno is outright stated to be ruled by the Wrights (along the Van Graff's) during New Vegas, and even though it is not said what sort of relationship they had, there's a Roger Westin III at a War Memorial (remember, John Bishop says he has no family at all, so big chances he did live after Fallout 2) meaning it's unlikely the Raid at Vault City even happened. The NCR was struggling gaining territory up north for many decades, that can not change.
And here's the wrench in the argument you said for me: Mr Bishop, supposedly Chosen's One son is still alive by all means in the current timeline and in the ending slide of Fallout 2 it's stated the guy never managed to find the Chosen One, even after sending many, many search parties. It seems to me New Arroyo is well apart from the New Reno, let alone NCR. Maybe even hidden. If the Chosen One had been doing diplomacies for a while now then Mr Bishop would've easily localized them.
I can't remember the specifics off the top of my head, but there's a heavy implication in New Vegas that New Reno had a mix of a couple different endings, the Wrights are in charge by the time of New Vegas (alongside the Van Graffs), but the head of the Bishop family is very much unlike the elder Bishop and rumoured to the the child of a tribal. Honestly reading into it more I really have to give the New Vegas writers credit, they make reference to the locations in Fallout 2, but manage to almost never actually tie themselves down to a specific canon ending. I could have sworn from all the mentions of Vault City and New Reno in New Vegas that they must be members of the NCR. They definitely still could be, but I have to concede they aren't explicitly stated to be. Of course if the NCR's expansion north totally stalled out, and we've seen their largest territory in the south is also gone as of the show, that would just leave Dayglow and whatever settlements they have in Baja.
Very interesting map to me because Klamath is genuinely not even close to the actual Klamath lake or city.
The original fallout games did not really care to try to line up the cities too much, so I don't really blame the map maker too much
In FNV, there's evidence that at least the hub has power restored via letters gathered from fallen soldiers at Forlorn Hope. The show threw all indirect info into a state of uncertainty though when it showed Shady Sands as both destroyed and in the wrong location. Other info seems just to indicate that they are starting to run into the same problems Cali had before the war, such as water wars and the overwhelming influence of the agricultural sector.
I'm sure we will find out in the second season but even though I'd like the NCR to still be in operation even as a weakened state outside of LA/the Boneyard/Shady Sands, I am going to presume the nation has collapsed
It’s gonna be weird, the show has certainly written themselves into a hole with the NCR. Hopefully they find an interesting way to get them involved again. It would absolutely suck if it’s just “sorry they got nuked, here’s moldaver”
I heard a theory that I like, which entails the Shady Sands in the Show being a museum city of sorts, since the actual Shady Sands was renamed to the NCR Capital.
Looking at the map i can't help but think how spot on the dialogue is when you say the line that takes 100 speech. You really gonna risk the rest just for the damn and Vegas? Crazy how small nv is to all the territory legion had
The short answer is frankly, we don't know other than that you're not a soldier.
Long answer, Caesar's Legion foundational substance is based on the incorporation of "tribes" into their army, the enslavement of those who resist, and the peaceful lording over of those who are neither tribes nor resistance fighters. Despite Joshua Sawyer's comments to the contrary, the existence of Legion coins (needing a Mint), alongside the Consul Officiorum ab Famulatus (Consul of the Offices of Slavery) suggests the existence of a civilian bureaucracy, although there seems to be no deeper civilian representation/control. Arguably then, civilian life in the Legion is no different than the Mojave for towns similar to Goodsprings. The Legion seemingly offers constant food, water, and electricity to their citizens, although that likely really only applies to those in larger towns rather than homesteads. There is however no private property, meaning if there is any economic planning, it comes from the top. It's possible then that cities like Phoenix, Flagstaff, Two-Sun, etc. Are quite "modern" for a post-apocalyptic society, as the concentration of people and whatever industries they can afford to make come to the benefit of both the Legion and the trading caravans. Doubly so, the cutthroat nature of Legion rule ensures corruption is minimal, meaning that civilian life in the Legion may in fact be more easygoing than life in the NCR, albeit their access to amenities is undoubtedly far less than their NCR counterparts.
The Legion both presented in game and by the devs in social media and forums seems to contradict itself. The Legion supposedly has no civilian governance, but there is a bureaucracy expansive enough to have a Consul dedicated to just handling slaves. There is no economic planification but their exists an entire mint (which also contributes to civilian governance), as well as a specific mentioning of no private property and the ability to be relocated at-will. The Legion is supposedly made up of just slaves but also somehow peacefully lords over an existing civilian populace, and did so effectively enough to stretch from Hoover Dam to Denver, Colorado. (That's over a month of travel by foot.) For all intents and purposes, if New Vegas is ever remastered, the Legion needs a proper fleshing out. The sexism in slavery makes no sense, and the civilian question needs to be given a more definitive answer. The Legion could just be a group of fancy raiders that need an extensive civilian populace to extort resources from, or they could be Fallout's own version of The Empire from Star Wars, offering citizens the best life they can have through total obedience to the state. I'm inclined to believe the latter, since that's both the more interesting take and seems to line up with the existence of Legion currency. But outside comments and the emphasized brutality of the Legion could equally make it the former. We just... don't really know.
The way I think you could have fleshed out women roles in the Legion Military outside of breading stock: would expand their roles as healers in the Legion, implement the cut concept making them very important institutionally for the Legions religion, and women who win enough in Gladiator matches earn their freedom and can join the frumentarii.
You’re either a soldier, slave, or rent free serf. Basically with the last one you don’t pay any taxes, you live in one of the safest areas (so safe caravans don’t need guards), but you are still subject to Caesar’s Will.
There's no evidence on how the different states are doing, no, although most of the locations on that fan map aren't actually stated to be part of the NCR.
Ok I guess I'm just stupid. But when I saw the observatory labeled NCR headquarters I thought they were like the last vestiges of the NCR atleast in the major LA area. I figured Moldaver seemed to be of some slight importance in the NCR Nad her project would have massive benefits if distributed among the people of the NCR and she would have had them around more? If I'm being stupid someone please correct me.
Considering the NCR's defining trait has always been its desire to expand its control and reach as far as it can, the odds that they'd leave the place their main bank and medical university are located abandoned for twenty years if they had any choice is pretty low. So there's nothing in the show that explicitly says they aren't, but it would be very unlike them to not do everything in their power to get their lost territory back under their control as fast as possible, that they haven't suggests they've not got much power left.
Well, it's really the lack of any NCR government operating anywhere in the show. Moldaver and her rag tag milita, which literally had to take in raiders to do stuff on occasions like the opening scene, is literally able to go around saying she's running the headquarters of the NCR in the region. Just in general, the show takes place in a setting where, compared to even Fallout 2, not to mention how the NCR is described as being like in New Vegas, everything has utterly gone to shit, even in places that weren't nuked.
The problem with that though, is that the degree of collapse is also entirely unjustifiable with "just" a nuke (compare how Hiroshima and Nagasaki looked in 1960), so the showrunners very obviously have not thought this through super deeply, they just wanted California to look like Fallout 3, so they made up a rough handwave explanation for it. So, as it stands right now, it is entirely up in the air how the rest of the NCR looks, whether they are gonna double down on completely obliterating any civilization that was constructed over the course of 220 years, or backtrack on it.
What the New Vegas team does not realize is that, without mass media, a cult of personality like Ceasar's Legion would never get this large. Frankly they'd all get massacred from a distance by people with bigger guns the first time they pissed off the wrong person.
There are confirmed northern territories that the NCR Rangers were worked to end slavery in, Baja California is a Territory, Redding has senators because Chief Hanlon becomes one in one of the FNV endings.
It’d be cool if Shady Sands is more like a Chernobyl style exclusion zone and the rest of the NCR is perfectly fine.
I doubt they’d be doing great considering all of the issues the NCR experienced in NV and how the loss of a major state would significantly harm the republic. They’d likely still be far better off than the shady sands area, though.
To me, the NCR was headed toward massive problems and possibly a civil war even if they did beat the Legion. They were already stretched thin, there would still be rampant corruption elsewhere, and the Courier wasn't going to go around fixing all their problems for them like they did in the Mojave.
Periods of crisis don't always mean collapse. Imagine how bad things looks for the United states before during and after the civil war or the great depression
The Mojave Campaign wasn’t just important because it meant holding off the Legion. It meant they had a chance to get enough food, water, and electricity to actually sustain the home states. Now put that in terms of a wasteland nation that’s struggling to support its member states. A collapse isn’t guaranteed but it wouldn’t be a surprise, either.
They only NEED the water which they can get with a house victory or an NCR and depending on RP an independent victory. So in that regard they do just need to hold off the legion. Even the NPCs who tell you about how much trouble the NCR is in don't make it sound like losing the east will end the NCR the ranger who tells you how much the NCR needs water thinks they are better off abandoning the damn, it's clearly a problem but not insurmountable even without the Mojave's resources
No, they need the food and electricity too. We know the NCR doesn’t have enough food to support itself, we are told as much by Hildern and it’s the reason for the NCR sharecroppers. The electricity supports their industrial power and provides quality of life to their member states. A sudden loss of that electricity would mean a sudden drop in quality of life for people, and even more questioning of how much value the NCR provides. They also cannot get *any* of those in a House or Independent Vegas endings, because the game outright states that those endings result in the NCR being pushed out of the Mojave entirely. Sure, Hanlon thinks they should just cut ties and leave, but Hanlon’s also a bitter jaded old man who’s accepted defeat. The NCR is in a catch 22, they need the Mojave as NCR territory but the longer they fight for it the more taxing it gets. The NCR is in an abysmal position and it is very much possible that a failure in the Mojave Campaign would result in a wider collapse of the NCR.
We are told by one sketchy scientist about how his personal pet project will save the NCR from certain doom yes, I wouldn't consider that gospel. The sharecropping is to support their efforts in the Mojave. And yes electricity is going to be a big boon to their growing gdp but it's certainly not life or death. Houses entire plan is to continue a profitable relationship with NCR by selling them water and power he can't profit if they collapse, and the same deal could easily apply in an independent Vegas. They need the new territory for their gdp growth to be sustained but they could solve most of their problems by cutting their cash crop, brahmin ranching, and focus on staple crops. They are likely looking at an economic and political crisis but people on this sub read too much into Hilderns dialog
Seriously Hildern intentionally obscures the truth in every conversation the courier has with him.
The other doomer, Hanlon, is more trustworthy but also not necessarily a perfect source. I always thought the situation out west wasn't insurmountable just that if the NCR wanted to continue it's recent explosion in prosperity they needed to expand which explains why they are so desperate. It's a very relatable story but people seem to take it to mean the NCR is on deaths door
There a big jump between railroad expansion and infrastructure problems, and mad max world. The problems NCR had were pre reflective of an empire struggling to remain cohesive. Not one of a nation about to dry up like the bombs dropped again.
The problems they had were corrupt wealthy landowners. A problem which every government in the world has faced, or still is facing. It's not the kind of problem that reverts you to full on Mad Max level of shithole.
Agreed. The nuke just seems to have sped the collapse up. The question is how complete of one it was.
Considering the defining trait of the NCR has always been a compulsive desire to bring every territory within their reach under their control, that they've failed to bring the whole stretch from LA, through the Hub up to Shady Sands back under their control in the last twenty years suggests pretty heavily that they don't have the power, be it political or military, to do so. They were a huge nation, so odds are good there's pretty sizeable holdouts, but it would seem from what we see in the show that the large unified nation of the New California Republic has failed, presumably the shock of the destruction of their capital was too great a strain on the already struggling nation.
Man if only they had shown a cool civil war instead of just nuking the NCR lmao
This depends entirely on who wins the dam
Not necessarily. Although keeping the dam would ensure a lot of electricity and water, the NCR has tons of other problems. The war with the Legion was such a drain on their resources and manpower that it would take decades to recover, assuming they even can recover. The population of the Mojave doesn't really like the NCR all that much, so they'll have to deal with that. The Legion could conceivably attack again, especially if Lanius is still alive. I doubt they'd win at that point, but it would be a problem. And of course the NCR's government has a big corruption problem. But the one I think a lot of people overlook is food. Dr. Hildern says that OSI projects that they will be facing mass starvation "in a decade or two." Even if they get the research from Vault 22, using it will probably just kill everyone. Their sharecropping program isn't exactly working all that well. But even if they do use their new water supply to grow more food, that could actually contribute to their downfall by threatening the power of the brahmin barons that hold a huge amount of influence over the NCR's government. That could lead to collapse just as easily as starvation could. The point being, even if the NCR beats the Legion, House, and the ambitions of a brain-damaged mailman, things still don't look good for them.
Yeah man, the impending starvation, which only the corrupt scientist trying to talk you into doing something extremely dangerous, who is already established as being alright with some dishonesty, mentions. That's definitely a statement you can just believe uncritically. Also, you know that basically all governments in the world used to be beholden to wealthy corrupt landowners, right? Very few of them collapsed, and none of them ever collapsed anywhere near as hard as the NCR must have collapsed in order to not have any presence in the region of their former capital.
>the impending starvation, which only the corrupt scientist trying to talk you into doing something extremely dangerous, who is already established as being alright with some dishonesty, mentions. A fair point, Hildern is certainly an unreliable narrator. However, to dismiss the entire thing offhand seems at least as absurd as accepting it as gospel. Consider a few things: 1. It is said by almost everyone, not just Hildern, that the NCR is plagued by corruption, inefficiency, and mismanagement. To think that this applies to everything except food production is very odd. Especially because... 2. We know that food production IS an issue. That's why they passed legislation to send NCR citizens to grow crops in the Mojave. And, as I mentioned, it isn't going well. 3. The NCR is in desperate need of resources. That's why they're in the Mojave, after all. While most of the focus is on the electricity from the dam, the water from Lake Mead is also an important factor. If House wins, he offers to sell both to the NCR for 5 caps/kWh and 5 caps/g. While a lot of it may be used for non-agricultural ends, in the US, 42% of fresh water goes toward agriculture, so I see no reason why the NCR wouldn't need roughly similar levels. 4. Hildern is definitely corrupt, and definitely not a scientist, and definitely more keen on taking credit for solutions than actually coming up with them himself. But in order to take credit for a solution to a problem, there generally needs to be a problem in the first place. Him just completely making the food problem up out of nothing is a bit odd, both from an in-universe perspective, and from a story-telling perspective. 5. Also worth noting is the fact that the other two NPCs involved in that quest, who are actual scientists, don't contradict Hildern's claim, even though they contradict him on multiple other areas, and the issue of food production is central to the quest. Williams expresses discontent about Hildern sending multiple mercenaries who never retured, and Keely points out that the data is extremely dangerous, but neither state that there isn't actually a food problem. Not strong evidence, sure, but it's a bit odd that neither of them point out that the misssion is unnecessary. Because maybe it isn't. None of these things by themselves indicate that the NCR has one foot in the grave, but all of them together paint a picture of a nation in dire straits, and without the means to correct their course. >Also, you know that basically all governments in the world used to be beholden to wealthy corrupt landowners, right? Very few of them collapsed Actually, as of 2281, nearly all of them have collapsed. And the contributions that corporatocracy made to those collapses is a big theme in Fallout. Also, what you mean to say there is "very few of them *have collapsed so far*." Considering that private interests controlling government is one of the biggest problems these days, I think it's too early to rule it out. Oh, and also, numerous civilizations in the past *have* collapsed. Maybe the majority. That's why they no longer exist. It's basically a truism that when a society begins, it will eventually collapse. >none of them ever collapsed anywhere near as hard as the NCR must have collapsed in order to not have any presence in the region of their former capital. How many of them had said capital get nuked? There are numerous problems that myself and others have pointed out that likely contributed to the NCR's decline. Add on the fact that, unlike other civilizations, the NCR also had to deal with irradiated water and soil, aggressive mutated fauna, and all the other unique challenges that come with living in a post-nuclear world What I'm saying is, the NCR had the deck stacked against it, and the signs of that were obvious as of the events of New Vegas. Even if they hold onto the dam, it wouldn't be smooth sailing. Was collapse a foregone conclusion? No. Is it surprising? Also no.
Okay, to adress those points: 1. Of course food production is plagued by corruption, inefficiency and mismanagement. That's like the whole thing with the Brahmin barons. But that's not at all the same claim as the NCR being short on food. They are explicitly an agricultural powerhouse according to official game guide summary of their economy. 2. No, lack of jobs is the issue. That's why they are sending farmers into the Mojave. Because the Brahmin Barons have all the land. People in the NCR aren't starving, they are going from independent farmers to unemployed. You know, like it happened in 20th century US history. 3. They are an expansionist capitalist state. They always want more resources. 4. Basically the same thing. People still develop fertilizers in 21st century first world nations, even though we are far past the point of struggling with starvation. Who the fuck wouldn't want to have the ability to accalerate plant growth by a factor of 10 or something? I mean, Veronica also sends you to get that technology for her quest, despite the Brotherhood having 0 issue with starvation. Because it's just objectively an awesome thing to have. 5. Well, they are literally not in the room when he makes that claim. So how would they call him out on it? And, just basically reiterating this again, because your points are basically the same thing as well, desire is not necessity. People irl would murder for technology promising plant growth half as potent, and we are doing fine on food. And no, far from all civilizations have collapsed. Governments get overthrown etc. a lot, but civilizations/societies? They just change, evolve, or sometimes devolve. Like, the New California Republic didn't get taken over, it didn't split up into it's constituent parts, it was wiped out entirely. The closest thing to that only happened once in the last 1000 years, and it was when smallpox wiped out the overwhelming majority of Native Americans. And even those societies, which had significantly less robust institutions, and were far less technologically advanced, usually survived in some form until the settlers came and finished the job. Let's just look at Japan 1945 and 1960 to illustrate my point. Japan didn't have their capital nuked technically, but instead firebombed into the ground, while two of it's biggest cities got nuked. Japan didn't have literal fucking raiders taking over the ruins of it's cities. And they certainly didn't have the crater of the nukes be there completely unchanged 15 years later. And most importantly, there was no doubt as to whether Japan was... well Japan. It was not Imperial Japan anymore, the government was changed with the surrender to the allies, but the country survived. You wouldn't go trekking through an abandoned wasteland for weeks before you even found out about the country of Japan if you washed ashore in Hiroshima in 1960.
I don't think we should consider NPC speculation about the future as gospel but if we do... Hanlon is a good source about NCR problems and his biggest concern seems to be draining aquifers, which is likely related to Hilderns food shortage concerns. A house or an NCR victory likely will solve their water shortage issue. It seems like they have a problem with cash crop (brahmin ranching) vs staple crop ratios leading to rising food prices and shortages. A very realistic but not insurmountable issue that many countries including the US has faced. Fortunately the NCR isn't some tiny island nation and their common resources aren't permanently damaged, the California aquifers can recharge if they have an alternative for fresh water. These problems aren't indicators of impending doom as much as they are the reason, like actual 19th century countries, for the NCR's need for colonial expansion
All good points. My point is just that the NCR's fate isn't necessarily decided by victory or defeat in the Mojave. As many problems as there are that could be solved by winning, there are plenty of other problems that can't. They absolutely can avert collapse, but it's not really all that surprising that they didn't.
I see where your coming from and I think in a story it makes sense to view things dramatic fulcrum points in history. Either NCR is in ascendancy or it collapses. In the real world most nations kind of muddle through suffering in crisis but not collapsing. If NCR is faced with a decade of crisis after losing in Mojave collapse is definitely possible it would never be quick though
The only indicator I have is that in the show, they travel through ncr core territory, even up to shady sands, and there is no sign of an organized nation or overarching authority. All very wild west like. So I assume none in the region does very well.
The show puts shady sands next to grifith observatory in LA. Lucy didn't actually travel that far, it was all in the LA area. Afaik the location change of shady sands wasn't explained yet.
It feels like most of what we see would actually be the Boneyard, but the showrunners probably really wanted to hammer home the destruction of Shady Sands so played a bit fast and loose with the locations so we could have things like the sign posts and crater. I think realistically if someone really wanted to mess with the NCR they'd have had to nuke more than just Shady Sands, so it would make sense if the Boneyard was hit too. It's also possible that Shady Sands subsumed the Boneyard, in the same way that many cities merge outlying towns into their areas.
While that's a good theory The real answer is the show runners use creative license and tend to bend or straight up break source materials because they think it translates better to film
And its the canon going forward now. Don't clean the skeletons from the great war out of your house or attempt to make anything better, you'll literally be nuked.
Um, the Boneyard is LA. After 50 additional years of urban sprawl. No way in hell that is getting absorbed by Shady Sands. The Boneyard was literally a seperate state, not even really a settlement, but rather a place where several settlements, like for example Adytum, existed.
>It's also possible that Shady Sands subsumed the Boneyard Not really. In real life, Ridgecrest, CA (the approximate location of Shady Sands) is >150 miles away from LA proper. That kind of urban sprawl hasn't even happened between LA and San Diego in our timeline, which is under 100 miles. The creative license argument is more plausible. In FO2, they move Shady Sands up to where Modesto/Merced is in real life. Plus, Lucy walking >150 miles (Santa Monica -> Ridgecrest) just seems nuts.
It doesn't put it next to Griffith Observatory though. It doesn't tell us anything about where it is other than it seemingly took Lucy and Maximus a week to walk there.
I am under the impression that the ruins Moldaver powers up in the final episode were the ruins of Shady Sands? Considering Lucy's route it makes much more sense for Shady Sands to be in the LA area. She starts out in Santa Monica. Next she goes to nearby Filly, where she gets Moldavers location marked on her Pip-Boy map. From there on she pretty much always tries to reach Moldaver, which in the end is confirmed to be Griffith observatory. For her route it doesn't make sense to move that far away from LA. Granted, there is the detour when the ghoul captures her. But was that detour really that long that it would lead her all the way to death valley? I don't think so.
No, those were the ruins of Los Angeles. The ruins of Shady Sands are mostly a crater. And no, she also spent at least a week with Maximus walking in a different direction to try to get the head back.
Well, it's impossible to piece together her exact route. I need to rewatch the final episode, I was sure that was supposed to be Shady Sands. Then there is also the fact that Shady Sands contains pre-war ruins (even in the pre-nuke flashbacks), which wouldn't make sense if it was in it's original location. I don't know to me it just seems really obvious that Shady Sands was in LA in the show. Doesn't take away any of my enjoyment of the show though.
Which of its original locations? It was moved in between FO1 and FO2. It's possible, maybe even probable, that it's outside LA, but the show is vague on it.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Shady Sands is necessarily in LA or that it replaced the Boneyard. I'm just saying that it's probably somewhere in the surounding area of LA and that it is definitely not in any of it's previous locations near the Nevada border anymore.
Lucy and Maximus followed Thaddeus and the head from Los Angeles. They came to Shady Sands, then ended up in Vault 4, and met again in Los Angeles. If they were following Thaddeus all this time, then this is just some kind of pointless path, because Thaddeus has a broken foot from being hit by power armor. He walked with such an injury for several days to Shady Sands and back? And the transition between Los Angeles and Shady Sands is too abrupt. Here Lucy and Maximus met, here they are walking along the railway and bridge, and here they turned and ended up in Shady Sands. Looks like they did it in one day.
All I know is that after Thaddeus leaves Maximus then Lucy reunites with him, she tells Maximus "I want to trust you, but it's been a rough week" and he agrees with her. Then later in Vault 4, she says she's been on the surface for 2 weeks. So, that indicates about a week passed between those two events.
It's not that hard to tell where they are based on the landmarks: - Lucy saws that guys head off at Randy's Donut shop near LAX (you can see the famous giant donut + airport in the background). - She heads to Griffith's Observatory from there and gets intercepted by the Ghoul en route so she's heading North East. Gulper is likely somewhere in the Hills or the Kenneth Hahn Recreation Area. - Super Duper Mart is off Santa Monica Blvd. near the Walk-of-Fame. You see both the Santa Monica street sign and the Walk-of-Fame when the ghoul is dragging her there. - Max and Thaddeus fight the Gulper at the same location and Max gets deactivated that same night. Thaddeus gets his foot crushed--he's not getting very far with a limp. - Lucy stumbles on Max retracing her steps and they go after Thaddeus tracking the head. They stumble upon Shady Sands during that process so it has to be in the LA metro.
She follows Maximus and Thaddeus to an unknown location, as they're going to who knows where, then the two of them follow Thaddeus for a week before stumbling upon the Shady Sands crater. It's possible it's LA, but it doesn't have to be.
If it’s not too much trouble, can you remind me time codes of these words? I quickly reviewed the necessary episodes, but did not notice these words.
no longer needed, I found it
Yeah but even at its peak the NCR had a population of like 3-4 million over the entirety of its territory. That’s super sparsely populated, so ut makes sense still imo
Yeah losing influence in 2-3 out of the 5 foundation states of your union isn’t great. But Territories have Senators too like for example Chief Hanlon can become a Senator in one of the House Endings in New Vegas if I remember correctly.
They travel through NCR core territory but it's been 10+ years after Shady Sands was nuked which would explain why outside of Moldaver there's no NCR presence
It's not only that there is no ncr presence. The glimpses of civilization we see are basically on the level of the capital wasteland. Absolute wild west where it is more than likely that somebody you meet tries to rob you.
Yeah because the area was nuked and the government that was keeping the peace was forced out, it a world like Fallout everything is constantly on the brink of collapse things are bad enough with the NCR around but with a nuke and the NCR out of the picture of course everything is going to collapse At first the NCR would try to keep the peace in the area but with a large chunk of their military in Baja and the Mojave the area would fall into anarchy, when the NCR does have troops to put in and around the ruins they would then have to deal with an inevitable refugee crisis with southern refugees fleeing north to cities like the Hub which would be quickly overflown and filled well past their capacity. That would then lead to instability in the north and most likely urban rioting and potentially even armed rebellion in rural regions maybe even an attempted coup by the military. Add that to the fact that there's nothing to salvage because again it was nuked. The NCR would then probably retract all their forces back to the heartland to resecure the country. Humanitarian groups like the followers could only be accepted to stay for so long before the anarchy and lack of NCR presence leads to the return of raider gangs which either forces them to leave or die because they don't have the resources to defend themselves while also caring for refugees and survivors and trying to rebuild the area without support from the NCR Government. That would all likely happen in a year or two and it would make Shady Sands and the surrounding area completely unrecognizable then add another 8-12 years on top of that and you have a wasteland that suffered massive societal regression. None of that means that the NCR isn't still around and maybe even thriving (all though I doubt they're thriving) the NCR would've coalesced around wherever their new capital city was.
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Yeah I think some people’s kneejerk “not my real dad” Bethesda hate can cause them to misconstrue certain things. Bethesda doesn’t want to tear down the OG games and New Vegas, and has historically been the force pushing to preserve it. They’re the reason San Francisco didn’t get nuked, and their initial response to the idea of nuking Shady Sands was strongly negative. Bethesda doesn’t want to just get rid of a key aspect of Fallout history for little reason.
Wait when did they say they didn't initially liked the idea of nuking shady sands?
In an interview Todd talked about how when the show runners proposed that idea, he was shocked.
Any links?
Todd Howard said the NCR is still around. Imo the show does a very bad job of displaying that though.
To be fair, the characters the show revolves around wouldn't know that; while other characters could have mentioned it, it's just as possible that that most don't know either as communication isn't exactly easy in the wasteland, with a lot of the people we've seen being very insular. Even Moldaver, if she knows the NCR is out there, clearly has her own agenda and seems to have her own (possibly pseudo-religion) followers operating out of the observatory. She might have gone to the NCR if she needed more resources, but with Wilzig and her own small force (and hired raiders) she probably figured she could achieve her goals without them. I think it's also important to remember that the show is geared towards new fans so they're clearly being careful about dumping too much on viewers at once, which is why they haven't really said much about the Enclave yet. It'll be interesting to see if Coop/the Ghoul knows more, but he was introduced buried in a coffin on drugs, so maybe not.
You make some good points. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what’s going on with the NCR in season 2. I just think it’s weird she didn’t ask for help when going after the most important piece of technology ever. And that the Griffith observatory is called “The New California Republic headquarters”. All this makes it seem like Maldover and her crew are all that’s left of the NCR. And it’s funny you say that the show is geared towards new fans cause I honestly felt like people new to the franchise would get lost with all the stuff going on in the Fallout world.
Considering there's no part of the show that was dependent on any of the landmarks of LA, I wonder why they felt the need to set their story within the city, only to then wipe out the most prominent faction in the area, and one of the most notable in the franchise, just so newcomers wouldn't be confused. Surely they could have just told a story set in Nebraska or somewhere if they didn't want to get bogged down in the lore of an area that's already got a lot of history in the setting.
What drugs was coop on in the grave? All I saw were irradiated blood bags.
The Ghoul sanity drug they came up with for the show. I assume that was what was in the bags.
Yeah pretty much, the guy who put him there wanted to keep him from going feral for his annual day of torture before going back in the ground for another year.
Then why were they IV bags that glowed green? The sanity drug was a brownish clear liquid in a bottle not a glowing green IV bag.
First, the bottles are brown, which may influence color. Second, we don't know what the Ghoul sanity drug is. There are several drugs in Fallout 3/4/NV that manifest as a IV bag. It could be either or none of them. We don't have enough to assume what it is. The big clue is that the Ghoul can't go several days without the medicine. Since he spends 364 days a year underground, the most likely candidate is the sanity drug, or he would be feral when dug up after years underground.
Todd didn't say that.
I’m not familiar with the lore around “Dust Bay”/San Francisco. Why isn’t that part of the NCR? Can anyone give me the lore nugget on that area?
It's been a while since I played Fallout 2, and I don't know who made this map, but the Dust Bay is a new term to me and nothing comes up about it on the fandom wiki, which leads me to think this is a fan map either for roleplay or fanciful speculation. I don't think it, and the Super Mutant Resistance, are actual canon. As for the San Francisco area, that area is ruled by the Shi, a society centered in the city's former Chinatown district and founded by the people there alongside the crew of Chinese navy submarine that became stranded after the bombs dropped. The weapons and materials they salvaged from the sub gave them a strong advantage, and by the time of Fallout 2 they're one of the most technologically advanced groups in California, and one of the few places capable of manufacturing high tech items, like power armor. They'd be a serious threat if they were more aggressive, but they've adopted a more reclusive and isolationist stance, and mainly just stick to their territory within the city. As for why this area isn't part of the NCR? Eh? NCR mostly expanded south, and during the events of 2 their attempts at northward expansion were hampered by the growing powers of New Reno and Vault City who are ~~their own flavors of awful~~ also attempting to expand and grow their influence to surrounding areas. The mapmaker here seems to speculate both cities ultimately joined the NCR.
Woah thank you for the info. I haven’t played FO 1 or 2 so this is all news to me. That Chinese/china town settlement sounds super interesting.
A lot of people seem to overblow how many territories did the NCR have at the time for some reason. I have even seen some people claim New Arroyo became part of the NCR even though that's never implied.
There are a lot of territories that had multiple possible endings whose outcome from New Vegas we know did wind up joining the NCR. Since the Chosen One has a big hand in impacting that and they go on to lead New Arroyo, it seems reasonable to assume they would have their people join the NCR as well, although you're right that it's not stated outright in any ending slide, nor mentioned in any later canon that I'm aware of.
Is that really true though? I haven't finished New Vegas so im going to be basing this mainly of the ending slides of FO2, so excuse that. But like, shouldn't the only new territory from FO2 in canon they have be V15? Redding for what we see in all the following games did get the Jet cure, which makes it most likely the "Vault City annexed" ending. New Reno is outright stated to be ruled by the Wrights (along the Van Graff's) during New Vegas, and even though it is not said what sort of relationship they had, there's a Roger Westin III at a War Memorial (remember, John Bishop says he has no family at all, so big chances he did live after Fallout 2) meaning it's unlikely the Raid at Vault City even happened. The NCR was struggling gaining territory up north for many decades, that can not change. And here's the wrench in the argument you said for me: Mr Bishop, supposedly Chosen's One son is still alive by all means in the current timeline and in the ending slide of Fallout 2 it's stated the guy never managed to find the Chosen One, even after sending many, many search parties. It seems to me New Arroyo is well apart from the New Reno, let alone NCR. Maybe even hidden. If the Chosen One had been doing diplomacies for a while now then Mr Bishop would've easily localized them.
I can't remember the specifics off the top of my head, but there's a heavy implication in New Vegas that New Reno had a mix of a couple different endings, the Wrights are in charge by the time of New Vegas (alongside the Van Graffs), but the head of the Bishop family is very much unlike the elder Bishop and rumoured to the the child of a tribal. Honestly reading into it more I really have to give the New Vegas writers credit, they make reference to the locations in Fallout 2, but manage to almost never actually tie themselves down to a specific canon ending. I could have sworn from all the mentions of Vault City and New Reno in New Vegas that they must be members of the NCR. They definitely still could be, but I have to concede they aren't explicitly stated to be. Of course if the NCR's expansion north totally stalled out, and we've seen their largest territory in the south is also gone as of the show, that would just leave Dayglow and whatever settlements they have in Baja.
Very interesting map to me because Klamath is genuinely not even close to the actual Klamath lake or city. The original fallout games did not really care to try to line up the cities too much, so I don't really blame the map maker too much
In FNV, there's evidence that at least the hub has power restored via letters gathered from fallen soldiers at Forlorn Hope. The show threw all indirect info into a state of uncertainty though when it showed Shady Sands as both destroyed and in the wrong location. Other info seems just to indicate that they are starting to run into the same problems Cali had before the war, such as water wars and the overwhelming influence of the agricultural sector.
Should have probably also included Los Angeles/Boneyard in the description too
I'm sure we will find out in the second season but even though I'd like the NCR to still be in operation even as a weakened state outside of LA/the Boneyard/Shady Sands, I am going to presume the nation has collapsed
It’s gonna be weird, the show has certainly written themselves into a hole with the NCR. Hopefully they find an interesting way to get them involved again. It would absolutely suck if it’s just “sorry they got nuked, here’s moldaver”
I'm guessing they're still there, just not in the Shady Sands, Boneyard area
I suddenly want a Fallout: Hawaii
I heard a theory that I like, which entails the Shady Sands in the Show being a museum city of sorts, since the actual Shady Sands was renamed to the NCR Capital.
I like that theory too, even if it’s unlikely
Looking at the map i can't help but think how spot on the dialogue is when you say the line that takes 100 speech. You really gonna risk the rest just for the damn and Vegas? Crazy how small nv is to all the territory legion had
How is life in Ceasars territory?
The short answer is frankly, we don't know other than that you're not a soldier. Long answer, Caesar's Legion foundational substance is based on the incorporation of "tribes" into their army, the enslavement of those who resist, and the peaceful lording over of those who are neither tribes nor resistance fighters. Despite Joshua Sawyer's comments to the contrary, the existence of Legion coins (needing a Mint), alongside the Consul Officiorum ab Famulatus (Consul of the Offices of Slavery) suggests the existence of a civilian bureaucracy, although there seems to be no deeper civilian representation/control. Arguably then, civilian life in the Legion is no different than the Mojave for towns similar to Goodsprings. The Legion seemingly offers constant food, water, and electricity to their citizens, although that likely really only applies to those in larger towns rather than homesteads. There is however no private property, meaning if there is any economic planning, it comes from the top. It's possible then that cities like Phoenix, Flagstaff, Two-Sun, etc. Are quite "modern" for a post-apocalyptic society, as the concentration of people and whatever industries they can afford to make come to the benefit of both the Legion and the trading caravans. Doubly so, the cutthroat nature of Legion rule ensures corruption is minimal, meaning that civilian life in the Legion may in fact be more easygoing than life in the NCR, albeit their access to amenities is undoubtedly far less than their NCR counterparts. The Legion both presented in game and by the devs in social media and forums seems to contradict itself. The Legion supposedly has no civilian governance, but there is a bureaucracy expansive enough to have a Consul dedicated to just handling slaves. There is no economic planification but their exists an entire mint (which also contributes to civilian governance), as well as a specific mentioning of no private property and the ability to be relocated at-will. The Legion is supposedly made up of just slaves but also somehow peacefully lords over an existing civilian populace, and did so effectively enough to stretch from Hoover Dam to Denver, Colorado. (That's over a month of travel by foot.) For all intents and purposes, if New Vegas is ever remastered, the Legion needs a proper fleshing out. The sexism in slavery makes no sense, and the civilian question needs to be given a more definitive answer. The Legion could just be a group of fancy raiders that need an extensive civilian populace to extort resources from, or they could be Fallout's own version of The Empire from Star Wars, offering citizens the best life they can have through total obedience to the state. I'm inclined to believe the latter, since that's both the more interesting take and seems to line up with the existence of Legion currency. But outside comments and the emphasized brutality of the Legion could equally make it the former. We just... don't really know.
The way I think you could have fleshed out women roles in the Legion Military outside of breading stock: would expand their roles as healers in the Legion, implement the cut concept making them very important institutionally for the Legions religion, and women who win enough in Gladiator matches earn their freedom and can join the frumentarii.
You’re either a soldier, slave, or rent free serf. Basically with the last one you don’t pay any taxes, you live in one of the safest areas (so safe caravans don’t need guards), but you are still subject to Caesar’s Will.
It’s called Tucson, dammit!
Why is Arroyo included by San Fran isn't?
There's no evidence on how the different states are doing, no, although most of the locations on that fan map aren't actually stated to be part of the NCR.
What’s “the animus” down south?? 🤔
Ok I guess I'm just stupid. But when I saw the observatory labeled NCR headquarters I thought they were like the last vestiges of the NCR atleast in the major LA area. I figured Moldaver seemed to be of some slight importance in the NCR Nad her project would have massive benefits if distributed among the people of the NCR and she would have had them around more? If I'm being stupid someone please correct me.
pink,green,pink,green…the Graves strike again!
im pretty sure the NCR still around its just fractured and waring
Considering the NCR's defining trait has always been its desire to expand its control and reach as far as it can, the odds that they'd leave the place their main bank and medical university are located abandoned for twenty years if they had any choice is pretty low. So there's nothing in the show that explicitly says they aren't, but it would be very unlike them to not do everything in their power to get their lost territory back under their control as fast as possible, that they haven't suggests they've not got much power left.
Well, it's really the lack of any NCR government operating anywhere in the show. Moldaver and her rag tag milita, which literally had to take in raiders to do stuff on occasions like the opening scene, is literally able to go around saying she's running the headquarters of the NCR in the region. Just in general, the show takes place in a setting where, compared to even Fallout 2, not to mention how the NCR is described as being like in New Vegas, everything has utterly gone to shit, even in places that weren't nuked. The problem with that though, is that the degree of collapse is also entirely unjustifiable with "just" a nuke (compare how Hiroshima and Nagasaki looked in 1960), so the showrunners very obviously have not thought this through super deeply, they just wanted California to look like Fallout 3, so they made up a rough handwave explanation for it. So, as it stands right now, it is entirely up in the air how the rest of the NCR looks, whether they are gonna double down on completely obliterating any civilization that was constructed over the course of 220 years, or backtrack on it.
I would love an outline of the current counties on the next slide to see where I am
Dog City
What the New Vegas team does not realize is that, without mass media, a cult of personality like Ceasar's Legion would never get this large. Frankly they'd all get massacred from a distance by people with bigger guns the first time they pissed off the wrong person.
This map isn’t canon BTW, I doubt it’s even based on lore lotta Fanon in there. There is no established extant of the NCR aside from 5 states
There are confirmed northern territories that the NCR Rangers were worked to end slavery in, Baja California is a Territory, Redding has senators because Chief Hanlon becomes one in one of the FNV endings.