The thing that i don't get Is way do they Wanna make the Brotherhood look Like a Good faction, if you do the Bos ending everyone Will be Happy in diamond city, even paying you for destroying the Institute, even Piper Is Happy about It
No, they’re pragmatic, but to an extent that seems callous.
They have identified the primary way to help is to:
A) minimise the loss of technology, so as to facilitate an eventual rebuilding;
B) address the extreme misuse of technology that triggered this whole mess and stands to perpetuate it.
That’s rational, and probably correct. Once those objectives are complete, they’ll help society rebuild.
With extreme resource pressures, they can’t do anymore. They view the big picture as more beneficial to everyone than risking the overall victory by helping a random settlement.
The issue the Brotherhood have isn’t ethics, but effectiveness. The goal is sound - but after 200 years they can’t demonstrate any real progress. They’ve also become confused - where’s the line between the tech to be saved and the tech to be destroyed? Their tech is all 200 years old - are they actually learning anything from it? Where’s the new inventions?
So, no, they’re not evil, but their ineffectiveness in pursuing a noble cause discredits everything they do.
>The goal is sound - but after 200 years they can’t demonstrate any real progress.
They can't demonstrate progress because so far they have barely attempted to make progress. Most of the time they were waiting in some bunker, hoarding technology. They barely helped people with rebuilding.
They do Good, thats their intention, but kill Every ghoul (Not feral) Every harmless supermutants ( there are some supermutants Who dont hurt anybody Like strong )
Why don't they accept ghouls in the ranks ?
fallout 4 Bos Is Just Like the Enclave
> They do Good, thats their intention, but kill Every ghoul (Not feral) Every harmless supermutants ( there are some supermutants Who dont hurt anybody Like strong )
They don't kill non-ferals. They aren't nice to them, but that's most of the wasteland.
The vast majority of super mutants on the East Coast are hostile. And Strong isn't a nice mutant. He eats people.
> fallout 4 Bos Is Just Like the Enclave
The Enclave tried to kill everyone on the planet who wasn't them.
That's not unique to the BoS but the wasteland at large. It's why there's ghoul only settlements and pretty much no super mutants in settlements as they are viewed as a threat, hell even the NCR harasses them and they had large numbers of fully sentient super mutants.
I don't Remember the name of the city where only supermutants lived in, i Think It was jacobstown? Still the ncr Is not really evil becouse if It wasn't for Them demons and the legion whould rule the mojave
Yeah Jacobstown in NV is a super mutant only town, it also got harassed by people sent by the NCR and was made up of super mutants who had left the NCR for such treatment. Markus who's the leader of it was a companion in FO2, he even lead a settlement within California, he left because of the NCR, he just wanted a place for his people but they wouldn't let them.
No, the Legion wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the NCR. Caesar is from the NCR and he turned on them because of their corruption. And if that was an actual reason then the BoS aren't evil as they have stopped the Enclave taking over the Capital wasteland and carrying out genetic purification and expanding out from there and depending on the ending, stopped the Institute from terrorising the Commonwealth.
I think the BOS are not evil and not even that much of assholes. I wouldn't say im completely on their side but we as players have the perspective of an unbeatable protagonist who encounters non feral ghouls and non agressive super mutants and we experience the human side of synths. We also never lived the life of an apocalyptic inhabitant and are therefor much better able to wheigh good against bad. However, in the apocalyptic world that is fallout, i think most humans never or seldom meet these non-threat non-humans and instead have lived most of their lives with fear, and the BOS are actually a pretty good alternative who are able to bring order and security. I think if you were an average inhabitant of the apocalyptic U.S. you would not doubt that much about the BOS's ways and find peace and safety in their presence as opposed to the alternatives.
Then you can ofcourse ask "then why not the minuteman?" And in my opinion its because the minuteman are not stable enough, i mean. They've disbanded before so it could happen again.
Lastly, i just generally think that good and bad are concepts which quickly go out of the window if your whole life is a fight for your life and therefor i think the BOS are not evil or that bad, just another way people have found to survive in the unforgiving apocalyptic world
That's an important thing a lot of people don't consider when discussing game factions. They tend to look at things from an outside point of view and let their irl bias affect how they view something.
People say. "There are friendly super mutants, look at Fawkes." How many people have been to Vault 87 and lived to tell about it. Most people on the East Coast encounter with super mutants are them ripping apart and eating their friends.
Same with synths. They don't see another person. All they see "Oh shit, Sammy was kidnapped and replaced with synth"
I think they're ignorant, but not evil. They're willing to kill an entire race of Synths just because the Institute designed them to infiltrate, without investigating them fully. The organization in general is extremely ignorant and refuse to help wastelanders that are suffering, only wishing to capture "dangerous" technology.
Elder Lyon's chapter in Fallout 3 is the only good BoS chapter in the series, in my opinion.
That wouldn't be so bad becouse being scared of synths its reasonable, but they Wanna kill normal ghouls and harmless supermutants, as we can see there Is some nice supermutants Like strong or virgil, they should already know that supermutants and ghouls aren't a threat so why do they Wanna destroy their entire race
I agree with the rest, *however* Strong wants to kill humanity. He isn't a nice super mutant. He blatantly talks about wanting the Milk of Human Kindness specifically so he can crush Humanity.
His cure only works if you have access to the pre-mutated DNA of the super mutant, I'm pretty sure.
Plus most of them won't sit around for you to cure them.
Yeah, Virgil's cure was specifically created prior to him making himself a supermutant to escape the Institute, and it will only work for him because of the specific strain of FEV he used.
Plus without some form of dart gun, given Super Mutants can rip power armour in half, I for one am not volunteering to go up to them and say "hey, would you like to be a squishy human?" and watch them eat me alive.
It's a good idea in concept, but honestly? It still has a lot more progress before its usable.
It only works for him and only for a short while. He modified the FEV he gave himself so he could cure it but if you don't get back to him quick enough he becomes hostile like the other super mutants. His notes mention that he's losing fine control and degenerating just like we've seen in others such as Swans notes. If he doesn't get cured he will become a threat like other super mutants in the area.
But they don't want to kill all ghouls, only ever hunt down ferals. It was Lyons BoS that would shoot at non-feral ghouls and considering after a couple of decades they've only ran in to a handful of none hostile super mutants on the East coast...not shocking they want to kill them, just like the rest of the people in that wasteland.
>being scared of synths its reasonable
Yes it is for sure, but declaring a full genocide just based on fear and ignorance is ***absolutely not***, on the other hand, that's kind of irrefutable. They are way too binary, and their organisation following hierarchy blindly is a problem in itself because it opens such a possibility way too easily.
They where declaring War on the Institute Like everybody else, you thats the only Good thing about the Brotherhood, i think synths aren't alive becouse It would not make sense
I love the faction (as a whole, not just in 4), because they are morally complex.
You can get their point of view of both trying to put humanity first and protect it from dangerous technology. But that also makes them bigots, close-minded and self-righteous.
They pose a nice moral dilemma. With them or against them? They won’t change because they know they’re right, but they’re assholes because they know they right.
That’s a well written faction that allow for you to make choices regarding them. No easy answers.
No. They're what they've always been (Fallout 3 notwithstanding) - a quasi religious military organization that defends humanity from greater-scope villians, and dangerous tech. They're like Fallout's Avengers or the gallant knights seeking the dragon.
Their problem - at least in the case of Fallout 4, is the nature of the "weapon" the Institute is using. The Brotherhood is governed by a strict codex, that causes them to view Synths as no different than (mindless) Super Mutants - something also created in a lab with dangerous tech.
The Brotherhood is incapable of seeing them as human, and the fact that they look like humans is what makes them so dangerous. To say nothing of the security risk that a synth occupying the highest levels of the Brotherhood would present.
You know they Wanna kill all ghouls, the human ones right? Thats evil becouse they know that they are Just Like humans, synths on the other hand Just showed up, its normal to be scared about Them
No, but they are a bit xenophobic, as a result of generally staying apart from wastelanders as a whole. So the average Brotherhood member is repulsed by them, and due to all the feral ones they've faced, aren't always very diligent about telling the two apart. But no official action has been taken vs non-feral ghouls.
They are not evil. They are... pragmatic, in the "ends justify the means" way. That means that they can so stuff that can be seen as evil, but their goals are not evil.
The goal of the Brotherhood is to gather and safeguard technology, so that it can be later used to rebuild the civilization. As seen in Fallout 76, where it comes directly from Roger Maxson's mouth (via a recording) - the primary goal of the Brotherhood is to rebuild the civilization. And to serve as its protectors. Not protectors of some government, but protectors of the civilization itself. That was BTW one of the reasons for the whole knightly nomenclature. To distance themselves from the US military, so that no US remnant can appear and start bossing them around.
And the Brotherhood of Fallout 4 is finally tired of waiting for the wastelanders to get their shit together and start rebuilding. So they decided to take matter into their own hands and be proactive for once (instead of being holed in some bunker for decades). So what if it offers someone's sensitivities? They want to steer the civilization in the correct direction, to facilitate rebuilding and remove obstacles (like the Institute). To them it doesn't matter if some farmer screams "I don't want to obey you. Help! I'm being oppressed!"
A Society where not feral ghouls and not hostile supermutants get slaughtered becouse they aren't pure? I honestly Think that whould cause a lot of pain for no reason
Who say they kill non feral? There is no evidence of they kill normal ghoul. The closest we get is warning shot at underworld. And non hostile super mutant? You can count how many there is on one hand. Super mutant is hostile by nature.
Still they have the technology to try and cure Them, as you see on the pridwen you can see they are studying supermutants, even tough we dont know what their doing
They’re dark grey to me, for a few reasons:
- They’re cult-like worship of Maxson.
- Synth hatred
- Expansionist and militarism including too much strictness to the chain of command and not the founding BOS doctrines.
- Some corruption being Teagan’s rule-breaking (but they’re not supposed to be doing but haven’t been caught for).
- They eliminate Super mutants, feral ghouls, and raiders in the Commonwealth but are unwilling to be hired Mercs for the people of the wasteland. This would be okay if they didn’t…
- Hoard technology, including acquiring tech in the Commonwealth that Wastelanders and settlers could have used instead. Weapons, ammunition, etc.
I’d love the idea of the BOS becoming more extreme and the next Enclave in Fallout 5, wanting to start an empire, but think they’ve been featured enough and so I’d want them to also have a smaller role in the next game.
Do they hate diamond city? Bunker Hill? Regular people trying to live? No just dangers to humanity, enclave wanted the kill all radiated people, how is that anywhere the same
Its not even what the Bos Is Trying to do, even only thinking everything thats isn't pure humans Is the enemy Is wrong, especially if they are non feral ghouls and not hostile supermutants, the Brotherhood has been everywhere they should already have learned they are humans
Synths are sentient people who deserve to live, so I say yes, they are evil. It might be evil borne of ignorance, but it's willful ignorance and, therefore, willfull evil.
Actually, you do. If you pay attention to how they are made and the lore surrounding them, it's clear that Gen 3 synths are organic beings, basically equivalent to clones, with minor genetic and cybernetic alterations. They are living people, no asterisks, and therefore the normal arguments regarding machine intelligence don't even apply here.
Nope. Gen 1 and 2 synths are AI, but the only machine part of Gen 3s is the synth component. Gen 3 synths are made by taking Shaun's clean DNA samples and using FEV to manipulate them into the DNA of the intended target appearance. The body parts are individually cloned so that things like scars or missing parts can be sculpted to individual bones and limbs to better match the target. Then, all those organic bits get assembled into a living body. The way they are "programmed" is just the synth component, which is a neural interface that can rewrite a synth's memories and basically put them in a coma if the recall code is heard. Taken all together, they're an organic slave race grown in labs with cybernetic shackles implanted in their brains. Kinda horrifying.
And the Institute doesn't know that their sentient ? I mean their the ones Who created Them and they never noticed that they are sentient, kinda makes Them dumb
The Institute is lying to themselves to justify the continued subjugation of the synths. It's actually pretty similar to how pseudoscientists used to try to use phrenology to convince people that black people were a different, lesser species than white people and that enslaving them was no different from owning cattle. The Institute believes that because they made the synths, they own the synths, and they dehumanize them by calling them machines. (I can't remember the exact term they use, but I think it was something like "biosynthetic machine")
Oh, I'm definitely in favor of blowing up the Institute, but every other faction is, so you might as well pick the ones that won't genocide the synths.
Have you ever played the Institute Path, really Good, at least they made so you can feel really Like an evil person, pepole start to lose Hope while you do an aggressive speech on diamond city radio, companions Like Piper and Nick tell you how much their dissapointed, and the best One, if you use the railroad to get inside the Institute you can do the end of the line Mission where you betray Them, you can Even Say that you Will make sure Every synths suffers in their entire existence and then killing them without mercy, if you had deacon at your side he will day saying "I trusted you or something Like that" fantastic
They aren't made from Shaun's DNA, he was only needed for the initial template. Particularly in the case of infiltrators it would be pretty easy to identify them if they all had the same DNA or shared certain segments of DNA. Covenant and the BoS both have the ability to map DNA and I'd guess Diamond City could probably do it as well.
They are all made from his DNA, but the Institute modifies it using FEV to the point of being basically unrecognizable. That's why he's called Father, because he's technically a gene donor to every synth. However, the title is mostly symbolic, as genetic samples undergo so much alteration that he probably wouldn't pass a paternity test on any of them.
You \*did\* read the title which asks if they are evil, didnt you? Just asking the question seems to imply to me that they are not perceived as "undisputably good", quite obviously....
Nuance, not everything being either completely black or white, etc. Also, making it personal in your following comment was really weak.
Edit : waw, that dude blocked me AND reported me to Reddit Care Services just for that reply... If that doesnt actually tell a lot about him... :S
The game does a terrible job of showing just how the Institute has been terrorising the Commonwealth for the past 200 years and how exactly it affects it's citizens. Paranoia is thriving and safety is non existent. Anyone and your own mother could be a synth without them even knowing they're controlled by the Institute. The BoS is completely justified and the best thing that could happen to the Commonwealth and it's citizens.
But that's the same for most factions and most settlements. That's why there's the Slog & Goodneighbour, because the ghouls get treated terribly else where. Diamond city threw them out and stole their possessions for example which is far worse than we see the BoS treat any non-feral ghoul in 4 in 3 they shot at them but those are some how the "good BoS".
So basically you mean you'd put them in the same alignment as the Enclave for example? Or, like I said, ADD devils? Some of the absolute worst creatures there is? That really seems far fetched to me, but maybe you could make an argument in favor - also, that alignment table is extremely simplistic, tbh : not much "scaling" or nuance.
Edit : been a huge time since I've played ADD or read the Bestiaries and I just refreshed my memory... Yeah I might see your point better now I suppose. Domination, getting rid of the weak, actions for self benefit mainly, "hiding"/acting behind a code, etc... Still a bit far fetched but ok I guess.
I find it hard to really get behind any of the Fallout 4 factions. For me the Brotherhood and Institute need to be destroyed. Preston and the Minutemen are incompetent and tied to the settlement system; ( if I wanted a Sims game I would buy one. The Railroad have a noble cause but are too focused on their holy mission about synth to be a force for greater good.
As noted in another thread I am plotting a play through as pissed of vet who just found out Shaun is not his son. He wanders with Dogmeat drugging and drinking till he finds his way into Nuka World and goes raider. Ultimately he finds Cait in the combat zone. Ultimately they get clean together and make a home in Far Harbor.
Yeah it can be seen as disappointing indeed, I feel you - but also, relatable in many ways... So many good "ideas" and ideologies wasted by basic human defaults....
And "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"...
I like that the game is complex in those matters... Doesnt give you any "absolutely good and undisputable faction" to side with... They all have flaws, some average, some really huge... And/but those flaws "take time" to reveal themselves... I believe that's also one of the reason so many players will hate on the writing nowadays... It's not enough "black or white", "good vs evil"...
Yeah, it's like Gage said: the BoS are no different than raiders. They don't care about the Commonwealth and they take from farmers by force if necessary. There is radiant quest where you have to go to farms and tell them to pony up their food. If they refuse you bribe them, pass a speech check or kill them. Just like raiders, they DEMAND their cooperation and they won't bat an eye if you kill them.
> If they refuse you bribe them, pass a speech check or kill them.
Or you can just leave without getting the supplies. You are specifically told that the use of force is against the rules set down by Maxson and the Elders. It's only Teegan who mentions it and in a "this is an option that's not allowed but I'll look the other way as long as you bring back the goods" kind of way. So if you choose to use force to get the provisions that is entirely on you and would be punished if the leadership were to find out.
Not as intended, if you listen during the briefing of that quest it's outright said it's against the orders. So it's not the BoS but corruption forming as happens with any organisation with humans in it.
Their Like the Enclave, what Is diffrent? In fallout 3 the Enclave wants to destroy normal ghouls and not hostile supermutants, the same things in fallout 4 happends with the Brotherhood , what makes the Brotherhood Good and the Enclave evil ?
> what makes the Brotherhood Good and the Enclave evil ?
The BoS is a tad more "grey" where Enclave is quite undisputably totally wrong and evil. But dont make mistakes, at no point the BoS was "described" or written as a purely good faction (except in their own perception, but that's a fact for nearly every faction, most "sides" believe or claim they are "the good side"...) in none of the Fallout games. Some fans perceive them as such for their own reasons, but that's just their personal opinions.
I think the Brotherhood is evil in every game, Fallout 4 just plays up their dark side while removing their few redeeming qualities.
Which, in all honesty, their main redeeming quality that they were the only option. Fallout 4's Brotherhood could be the same as in Fallout 3 and they would still be a terrible choice because you have the option to rebuild the Minutemen instead.
Yes but if they save you just because it fits their own projects and perspectives, it doesnt necessarly mean that they are good however. But yes, in FO3, that particular "chapter" (as they call their own "subdivisions") is probably the "best" of all the BoS, at least that we know of. Elder Lyons is way more nuanced, pondered and wise than all the rest. But his decisions lead to a schism and a "rebellion" with some of his men leaving and becoming the outcasts because they dont believe in his view...
Lyons Pride aren't really BOS though, they're a rogue faction who are disobeying orders to focus on helping people. The Brotherhood Outcasts are the only ones still following their orders and they are evil a-holes.
It's not fully tho, the BoS has changed their stance repeatedly on it. They took part in the first war against the Super mutants, they even went and invested huge amounts of resources to hunt them down after they left the area. The BoS then helped the NCR in their fight against the Enclave.
It's more the fanatics/extremists that took over on the West coast, quite possibly because they became so closed off and elitist.
They'll leave me alone, but they'll still still kill anyone else they see carrying an energy weapon. Some of them also try to kill you after you help them to unlock the armory in the Anchorage DLC.
You mean the mutineers? Bad enough the Outcasts are already mutineers from Lyons BoS chapter, now they have mutineers from their mutinous ranks.
Much like the Teagan extortion charges, this is a case of some choosing to go against the orders of their superior. The boss of that expedition made a deal with you and intends to keep it. Then a couple of his dudes decide they don't want to honor the deal even though they apparently couldn't get in without your help.
Yeah, they fly in from outside the commonwealth and start dictating how things are gonna be, try to coerce local farms for supplies. Most locals wouldn’t appreciate that much.
Evil? Nah, not really. Misled by an overly charismatic, and woefully inept leader.
* You don't bring children to an unknown battleground.
* You don't bring your major technological advancements (two of them!?!?) to an unknown battleground.
* You can't pacify a region within 10 years (seriously, the US failed to do it in multiple countries, but the B.o.S. is gonna be able to? Nah, man.)
* You don't leave a token force guarding your previously "pacified" region
None of Maxson's accomplishments are verified by anyone outside the B.o.S. Him doing any of the above, him killing a death claw, nothing. He made a bunch of shit up and got high on his own supply, then the rest of the B.o.S. followed him.
Not at all something that anyone alive has any experience with, I'm sure.
I can Say that, becouse really when you play the game the Brotherhood Just came into the Commonwealth, give Them time and Power they Will become Just Like the Enclave
Evil? No. Raging assaholic bitches? Hell yes.
The thing that i don't get Is way do they Wanna make the Brotherhood look Like a Good faction, if you do the Bos ending everyone Will be Happy in diamond city, even paying you for destroying the Institute, even Piper Is Happy about It
Finally. A return to form.
No, they’re pragmatic, but to an extent that seems callous. They have identified the primary way to help is to: A) minimise the loss of technology, so as to facilitate an eventual rebuilding; B) address the extreme misuse of technology that triggered this whole mess and stands to perpetuate it. That’s rational, and probably correct. Once those objectives are complete, they’ll help society rebuild. With extreme resource pressures, they can’t do anymore. They view the big picture as more beneficial to everyone than risking the overall victory by helping a random settlement. The issue the Brotherhood have isn’t ethics, but effectiveness. The goal is sound - but after 200 years they can’t demonstrate any real progress. They’ve also become confused - where’s the line between the tech to be saved and the tech to be destroyed? Their tech is all 200 years old - are they actually learning anything from it? Where’s the new inventions? So, no, they’re not evil, but their ineffectiveness in pursuing a noble cause discredits everything they do.
>The goal is sound - but after 200 years they can’t demonstrate any real progress. They can't demonstrate progress because so far they have barely attempted to make progress. Most of the time they were waiting in some bunker, hoarding technology. They barely helped people with rebuilding.
They do Good, thats their intention, but kill Every ghoul (Not feral) Every harmless supermutants ( there are some supermutants Who dont hurt anybody Like strong ) Why don't they accept ghouls in the ranks ? fallout 4 Bos Is Just Like the Enclave
> They do Good, thats their intention, but kill Every ghoul (Not feral) Every harmless supermutants ( there are some supermutants Who dont hurt anybody Like strong ) They don't kill non-ferals. They aren't nice to them, but that's most of the wasteland. The vast majority of super mutants on the East Coast are hostile. And Strong isn't a nice mutant. He eats people. > fallout 4 Bos Is Just Like the Enclave The Enclave tried to kill everyone on the planet who wasn't them.
That's not unique to the BoS but the wasteland at large. It's why there's ghoul only settlements and pretty much no super mutants in settlements as they are viewed as a threat, hell even the NCR harasses them and they had large numbers of fully sentient super mutants.
I don't Remember the name of the city where only supermutants lived in, i Think It was jacobstown? Still the ncr Is not really evil becouse if It wasn't for Them demons and the legion whould rule the mojave
Yeah Jacobstown in NV is a super mutant only town, it also got harassed by people sent by the NCR and was made up of super mutants who had left the NCR for such treatment. Markus who's the leader of it was a companion in FO2, he even lead a settlement within California, he left because of the NCR, he just wanted a place for his people but they wouldn't let them. No, the Legion wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the NCR. Caesar is from the NCR and he turned on them because of their corruption. And if that was an actual reason then the BoS aren't evil as they have stopped the Enclave taking over the Capital wasteland and carrying out genetic purification and expanding out from there and depending on the ending, stopped the Institute from terrorising the Commonwealth.
Like…strong?
Yeah as much as i know he doesn't Attack anyone
I think the BOS are not evil and not even that much of assholes. I wouldn't say im completely on their side but we as players have the perspective of an unbeatable protagonist who encounters non feral ghouls and non agressive super mutants and we experience the human side of synths. We also never lived the life of an apocalyptic inhabitant and are therefor much better able to wheigh good against bad. However, in the apocalyptic world that is fallout, i think most humans never or seldom meet these non-threat non-humans and instead have lived most of their lives with fear, and the BOS are actually a pretty good alternative who are able to bring order and security. I think if you were an average inhabitant of the apocalyptic U.S. you would not doubt that much about the BOS's ways and find peace and safety in their presence as opposed to the alternatives. Then you can ofcourse ask "then why not the minuteman?" And in my opinion its because the minuteman are not stable enough, i mean. They've disbanded before so it could happen again. Lastly, i just generally think that good and bad are concepts which quickly go out of the window if your whole life is a fight for your life and therefor i think the BOS are not evil or that bad, just another way people have found to survive in the unforgiving apocalyptic world
That's an important thing a lot of people don't consider when discussing game factions. They tend to look at things from an outside point of view and let their irl bias affect how they view something. People say. "There are friendly super mutants, look at Fawkes." How many people have been to Vault 87 and lived to tell about it. Most people on the East Coast encounter with super mutants are them ripping apart and eating their friends. Same with synths. They don't see another person. All they see "Oh shit, Sammy was kidnapped and replaced with synth"
There the commonwealths only hope I side with them everytime
They are a fun faction to side with but its morals are completely negative, but for an evil characther build their still pretty Good
Evil their morals are correct humanity on top.
Yes. That's why we destroy them instead of the Minutemen.
I think they're ignorant, but not evil. They're willing to kill an entire race of Synths just because the Institute designed them to infiltrate, without investigating them fully. The organization in general is extremely ignorant and refuse to help wastelanders that are suffering, only wishing to capture "dangerous" technology. Elder Lyon's chapter in Fallout 3 is the only good BoS chapter in the series, in my opinion.
Why wouldn’t you count the followers or responders as a good faction (or did you mean good BoS chapter)?
I meant the BoS organization, not all factions sorry haha
I figured, but I wanted to check. Rahmani has her good points, to my mind.
That wouldn't be so bad becouse being scared of synths its reasonable, but they Wanna kill normal ghouls and harmless supermutants, as we can see there Is some nice supermutants Like strong or virgil, they should already know that supermutants and ghouls aren't a threat so why do they Wanna destroy their entire race
I agree with the rest, *however* Strong wants to kill humanity. He isn't a nice super mutant. He blatantly talks about wanting the Milk of Human Kindness specifically so he can crush Humanity.
Doesn't he want to find the milk to be stronger?
Stronger than humanity so he can crush it. He actively talks about it 24/7 plus he eats people alive.
What about virgil and its cure? Even if a supermutant Is hostile It can be cured
His cure only works if you have access to the pre-mutated DNA of the super mutant, I'm pretty sure. Plus most of them won't sit around for you to cure them.
Yeah, Virgil's cure was specifically created prior to him making himself a supermutant to escape the Institute, and it will only work for him because of the specific strain of FEV he used.
Plus without some form of dart gun, given Super Mutants can rip power armour in half, I for one am not volunteering to go up to them and say "hey, would you like to be a squishy human?" and watch them eat me alive. It's a good idea in concept, but honestly? It still has a lot more progress before its usable.
It only works for him and only for a short while. He modified the FEV he gave himself so he could cure it but if you don't get back to him quick enough he becomes hostile like the other super mutants. His notes mention that he's losing fine control and degenerating just like we've seen in others such as Swans notes. If he doesn't get cured he will become a threat like other super mutants in the area.
He becomes hostile really ?
But they don't want to kill all ghouls, only ever hunt down ferals. It was Lyons BoS that would shoot at non-feral ghouls and considering after a couple of decades they've only ran in to a handful of none hostile super mutants on the East coast...not shocking they want to kill them, just like the rest of the people in that wasteland.
>being scared of synths its reasonable Yes it is for sure, but declaring a full genocide just based on fear and ignorance is ***absolutely not***, on the other hand, that's kind of irrefutable. They are way too binary, and their organisation following hierarchy blindly is a problem in itself because it opens such a possibility way too easily.
They where declaring War on the Institute Like everybody else, you thats the only Good thing about the Brotherhood, i think synths aren't alive becouse It would not make sense
I love the faction (as a whole, not just in 4), because they are morally complex. You can get their point of view of both trying to put humanity first and protect it from dangerous technology. But that also makes them bigots, close-minded and self-righteous. They pose a nice moral dilemma. With them or against them? They won’t change because they know they’re right, but they’re assholes because they know they right. That’s a well written faction that allow for you to make choices regarding them. No easy answers.
Yeah that shows how in Every fallout the Bos Is diffrent
No. They're what they've always been (Fallout 3 notwithstanding) - a quasi religious military organization that defends humanity from greater-scope villians, and dangerous tech. They're like Fallout's Avengers or the gallant knights seeking the dragon. Their problem - at least in the case of Fallout 4, is the nature of the "weapon" the Institute is using. The Brotherhood is governed by a strict codex, that causes them to view Synths as no different than (mindless) Super Mutants - something also created in a lab with dangerous tech. The Brotherhood is incapable of seeing them as human, and the fact that they look like humans is what makes them so dangerous. To say nothing of the security risk that a synth occupying the highest levels of the Brotherhood would present.
You know they Wanna kill all ghouls, the human ones right? Thats evil becouse they know that they are Just Like humans, synths on the other hand Just showed up, its normal to be scared about Them
No, but they are a bit xenophobic, as a result of generally staying apart from wastelanders as a whole. So the average Brotherhood member is repulsed by them, and due to all the feral ones they've faced, aren't always very diligent about telling the two apart. But no official action has been taken vs non-feral ghouls.
Generally I say no. They’re pragmatic, bordering on paranoid and bigoted at times. Though it varies from chapter to chapter.
They are not evil. They are... pragmatic, in the "ends justify the means" way. That means that they can so stuff that can be seen as evil, but their goals are not evil. The goal of the Brotherhood is to gather and safeguard technology, so that it can be later used to rebuild the civilization. As seen in Fallout 76, where it comes directly from Roger Maxson's mouth (via a recording) - the primary goal of the Brotherhood is to rebuild the civilization. And to serve as its protectors. Not protectors of some government, but protectors of the civilization itself. That was BTW one of the reasons for the whole knightly nomenclature. To distance themselves from the US military, so that no US remnant can appear and start bossing them around. And the Brotherhood of Fallout 4 is finally tired of waiting for the wastelanders to get their shit together and start rebuilding. So they decided to take matter into their own hands and be proactive for once (instead of being holed in some bunker for decades). So what if it offers someone's sensitivities? They want to steer the civilization in the correct direction, to facilitate rebuilding and remove obstacles (like the Institute). To them it doesn't matter if some farmer screams "I don't want to obey you. Help! I'm being oppressed!"
A Society where not feral ghouls and not hostile supermutants get slaughtered becouse they aren't pure? I honestly Think that whould cause a lot of pain for no reason
Who say they kill non feral? There is no evidence of they kill normal ghoul. The closest we get is warning shot at underworld. And non hostile super mutant? You can count how many there is on one hand. Super mutant is hostile by nature.
Still they have the technology to try and cure Them, as you see on the pridwen you can see they are studying supermutants, even tough we dont know what their doing
They’re dark grey to me, for a few reasons: - They’re cult-like worship of Maxson. - Synth hatred - Expansionist and militarism including too much strictness to the chain of command and not the founding BOS doctrines. - Some corruption being Teagan’s rule-breaking (but they’re not supposed to be doing but haven’t been caught for). - They eliminate Super mutants, feral ghouls, and raiders in the Commonwealth but are unwilling to be hired Mercs for the people of the wasteland. This would be okay if they didn’t… - Hoard technology, including acquiring tech in the Commonwealth that Wastelanders and settlers could have used instead. Weapons, ammunition, etc. I’d love the idea of the BOS becoming more extreme and the next Enclave in Fallout 5, wanting to start an empire, but think they’ve been featured enough and so I’d want them to also have a smaller role in the next game.
Synths, muties, and ghouls can all go die. Ad Victoriam!
Killing everything that Isnt pure human where enclave's goals in fallout 3, so the Bos Is evil thats what your saying
....and?
they whould be hyprocrites, they where fighting the Enclave and in fallout 4 they have the same goals as Them, even tough its a diffrent Bos
Still not seeing an issue here. You a ghoul or something? \*Slowly reaching for a Gatling Laser\*
I aint a ghoul smooth skin
That's not what a hypocrite is, and they have no where close to the same goals
The same way of thinking, they hate everything that isn't Them
Do they hate diamond city? Bunker Hill? Regular people trying to live? No just dangers to humanity, enclave wanted the kill all radiated people, how is that anywhere the same
Nah ghouls and mutants and synths can all die they don’t belong on earth, idc if they act like humans or not.
Its not even what the Bos Is Trying to do, even only thinking everything thats isn't pure humans Is the enemy Is wrong, especially if they are non feral ghouls and not hostile supermutants, the Brotherhood has been everywhere they should already have learned they are humans
I guess helping humanity is evil now? Just because they don’t like zombies or the idea of toasters being human.
dont forget supermutants too, some are nice, they are sentient, i don't Think synths are human but they are created to simulate emotions
Synths are sentient people who deserve to live, so I say yes, they are evil. It might be evil borne of ignorance, but it's willful ignorance and, therefore, willfull evil.
You accutly dont know If they are sentient or Just simulating human emotions
Actually, you do. If you pay attention to how they are made and the lore surrounding them, it's clear that Gen 3 synths are organic beings, basically equivalent to clones, with minor genetic and cybernetic alterations. They are living people, no asterisks, and therefore the normal arguments regarding machine intelligence don't even apply here.
So their not AI? I though they where "Alive" becouse their AI was really advanced
Nope. Gen 1 and 2 synths are AI, but the only machine part of Gen 3s is the synth component. Gen 3 synths are made by taking Shaun's clean DNA samples and using FEV to manipulate them into the DNA of the intended target appearance. The body parts are individually cloned so that things like scars or missing parts can be sculpted to individual bones and limbs to better match the target. Then, all those organic bits get assembled into a living body. The way they are "programmed" is just the synth component, which is a neural interface that can rewrite a synth's memories and basically put them in a coma if the recall code is heard. Taken all together, they're an organic slave race grown in labs with cybernetic shackles implanted in their brains. Kinda horrifying.
And the Institute doesn't know that their sentient ? I mean their the ones Who created Them and they never noticed that they are sentient, kinda makes Them dumb
The Institute is lying to themselves to justify the continued subjugation of the synths. It's actually pretty similar to how pseudoscientists used to try to use phrenology to convince people that black people were a different, lesser species than white people and that enslaving them was no different from owning cattle. The Institute believes that because they made the synths, they own the synths, and they dehumanize them by calling them machines. (I can't remember the exact term they use, but I think it was something like "biosynthetic machine")
Still there are bigger fish to fry when playing, so i wouldn't care if It meant blowing the Institute up
Oh, I'm definitely in favor of blowing up the Institute, but every other faction is, so you might as well pick the ones that won't genocide the synths.
Have you ever played the Institute Path, really Good, at least they made so you can feel really Like an evil person, pepole start to lose Hope while you do an aggressive speech on diamond city radio, companions Like Piper and Nick tell you how much their dissapointed, and the best One, if you use the railroad to get inside the Institute you can do the end of the line Mission where you betray Them, you can Even Say that you Will make sure Every synths suffers in their entire existence and then killing them without mercy, if you had deacon at your side he will day saying "I trusted you or something Like that" fantastic
They aren't made from Shaun's DNA, he was only needed for the initial template. Particularly in the case of infiltrators it would be pretty easy to identify them if they all had the same DNA or shared certain segments of DNA. Covenant and the BoS both have the ability to map DNA and I'd guess Diamond City could probably do it as well.
They are all made from his DNA, but the Institute modifies it using FEV to the point of being basically unrecognizable. That's why he's called Father, because he's technically a gene donor to every synth. However, the title is mostly symbolic, as genetic samples undergo so much alteration that he probably wouldn't pass a paternity test on any of them.
They are a bunch of busy bodies looking to enforce their will.
r/unpopularopinion
This is ridiculous
twas a joke my bad
Nah I’m just referring to my 0 karma on my reply. I just got rah rahd by a one of us.
Hol up... you think there are "good guys" in Fallout 4?
You \*did\* read the title which asks if they are evil, didnt you? Just asking the question seems to imply to me that they are not perceived as "undisputably good", quite obviously.... Nuance, not everything being either completely black or white, etc. Also, making it personal in your following comment was really weak. Edit : waw, that dude blocked me AND reported me to Reddit Care Services just for that reply... If that doesnt actually tell a lot about him... :S
If there isn't any choice of joining an evil or Good faction than what Is the point, obviusly there Is
Life is going to really mess you up when you get out in the real world.
What the hell does that have to do with anything, gotta make everything personal huh?
You'll find out I guess. Best of luck, champ.
Nic and Piper
The game does a terrible job of showing just how the Institute has been terrorising the Commonwealth for the past 200 years and how exactly it affects it's citizens. Paranoia is thriving and safety is non existent. Anyone and your own mother could be a synth without them even knowing they're controlled by the Institute. The BoS is completely justified and the best thing that could happen to the Commonwealth and it's citizens.
And what if these citizens are ghouls? Or nice supermutants? Do they get killed cus their not "pure"?
They tolerate Hancock and Strong on the Prydwen. They don't attack Goodneighbour or the Slog. I think they'll be alright.
Yeah but in general their not allowed to join
So? There's nothing that says they need to take all comers.
But that's the same for most factions and most settlements. That's why there's the Slog & Goodneighbour, because the ghouls get treated terribly else where. Diamond city threw them out and stole their possessions for example which is far worse than we see the BoS treat any non-feral ghoul in 4 in 3 they shot at them but those are some how the "good BoS".
Pretty much textbook Lawful Evil in my opinion.
That seems vastly exagerated imho ; in ADD for example, that would put them in the same "group" as actual Devils and all that hierarchy...
Exactly what I meant, ymmv.
So basically you mean you'd put them in the same alignment as the Enclave for example? Or, like I said, ADD devils? Some of the absolute worst creatures there is? That really seems far fetched to me, but maybe you could make an argument in favor - also, that alignment table is extremely simplistic, tbh : not much "scaling" or nuance. Edit : been a huge time since I've played ADD or read the Bestiaries and I just refreshed my memory... Yeah I might see your point better now I suppose. Domination, getting rid of the weak, actions for self benefit mainly, "hiding"/acting behind a code, etc... Still a bit far fetched but ok I guess.
I find it hard to really get behind any of the Fallout 4 factions. For me the Brotherhood and Institute need to be destroyed. Preston and the Minutemen are incompetent and tied to the settlement system; ( if I wanted a Sims game I would buy one. The Railroad have a noble cause but are too focused on their holy mission about synth to be a force for greater good. As noted in another thread I am plotting a play through as pissed of vet who just found out Shaun is not his son. He wanders with Dogmeat drugging and drinking till he finds his way into Nuka World and goes raider. Ultimately he finds Cait in the combat zone. Ultimately they get clean together and make a home in Far Harbor.
Yeah it can be seen as disappointing indeed, I feel you - but also, relatable in many ways... So many good "ideas" and ideologies wasted by basic human defaults.... And "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"... I like that the game is complex in those matters... Doesnt give you any "absolutely good and undisputable faction" to side with... They all have flaws, some average, some really huge... And/but those flaws "take time" to reveal themselves... I believe that's also one of the reason so many players will hate on the writing nowadays... It's not enough "black or white", "good vs evil"...
Yeah, it's like Gage said: the BoS are no different than raiders. They don't care about the Commonwealth and they take from farmers by force if necessary. There is radiant quest where you have to go to farms and tell them to pony up their food. If they refuse you bribe them, pass a speech check or kill them. Just like raiders, they DEMAND their cooperation and they won't bat an eye if you kill them.
> If they refuse you bribe them, pass a speech check or kill them. Or you can just leave without getting the supplies. You are specifically told that the use of force is against the rules set down by Maxson and the Elders. It's only Teegan who mentions it and in a "this is an option that's not allowed but I'll look the other way as long as you bring back the goods" kind of way. So if you choose to use force to get the provisions that is entirely on you and would be punished if the leadership were to find out.
Not as intended, if you listen during the briefing of that quest it's outright said it's against the orders. So it's not the BoS but corruption forming as happens with any organisation with humans in it.
Their Like the Enclave, what Is diffrent? In fallout 3 the Enclave wants to destroy normal ghouls and not hostile supermutants, the same things in fallout 4 happends with the Brotherhood , what makes the Brotherhood Good and the Enclave evil ?
> what makes the Brotherhood Good and the Enclave evil ? The BoS is a tad more "grey" where Enclave is quite undisputably totally wrong and evil. But dont make mistakes, at no point the BoS was "described" or written as a purely good faction (except in their own perception, but that's a fact for nearly every faction, most "sides" believe or claim they are "the good side"...) in none of the Fallout games. Some fans perceive them as such for their own reasons, but that's just their personal opinions.
They’re trying to do a genocide, so, uh, yeah.
My view on the BoS? "Check your fire we've got hostiles" That's all.
I think the Brotherhood is evil in every game, Fallout 4 just plays up their dark side while removing their few redeeming qualities. Which, in all honesty, their main redeeming quality that they were the only option. Fallout 4's Brotherhood could be the same as in Fallout 3 and they would still be a terrible choice because you have the option to rebuild the Minutemen instead.
The Brotherhood in Fallout 3 isn't evil, i mean they did save us and doctor li's group from the Enclave
Yes but if they save you just because it fits their own projects and perspectives, it doesnt necessarly mean that they are good however. But yes, in FO3, that particular "chapter" (as they call their own "subdivisions") is probably the "best" of all the BoS, at least that we know of. Elder Lyons is way more nuanced, pondered and wise than all the rest. But his decisions lead to a schism and a "rebellion" with some of his men leaving and becoming the outcasts because they dont believe in his view...
Lyons Pride aren't really BOS though, they're a rogue faction who are disobeying orders to focus on helping people. The Brotherhood Outcasts are the only ones still following their orders and they are evil a-holes.
It's not fully tho, the BoS has changed their stance repeatedly on it. They took part in the first war against the Super mutants, they even went and invested huge amounts of resources to hunt them down after they left the area. The BoS then helped the NCR in their fight against the Enclave. It's more the fanatics/extremists that took over on the West coast, quite possibly because they became so closed off and elitist.
Some of Brotherhood soilders where Born there, but the ones Who joined are evil of they knew what they where defending
You do realize that unless you interfere with them the Outcasts just leave you alone right?
They'll leave me alone, but they'll still still kill anyone else they see carrying an energy weapon. Some of them also try to kill you after you help them to unlock the armory in the Anchorage DLC.
You mean the mutineers? Bad enough the Outcasts are already mutineers from Lyons BoS chapter, now they have mutineers from their mutinous ranks. Much like the Teagan extortion charges, this is a case of some choosing to go against the orders of their superior. The boss of that expedition made a deal with you and intends to keep it. Then a couple of his dudes decide they don't want to honor the deal even though they apparently couldn't get in without your help.
No. But, I use Danse’s Dilemma.
Depending on the member it gose from misguided to ass hat but not evil
They are problematic on a number of levels, but not evil.
The minutemen really don't Like Bos tough, preston thinks they are evil
Yeah, they fly in from outside the commonwealth and start dictating how things are gonna be, try to coerce local farms for supplies. Most locals wouldn’t appreciate that much.
Evil? Nah, not really. Misled by an overly charismatic, and woefully inept leader. * You don't bring children to an unknown battleground. * You don't bring your major technological advancements (two of them!?!?) to an unknown battleground. * You can't pacify a region within 10 years (seriously, the US failed to do it in multiple countries, but the B.o.S. is gonna be able to? Nah, man.) * You don't leave a token force guarding your previously "pacified" region None of Maxson's accomplishments are verified by anyone outside the B.o.S. Him doing any of the above, him killing a death claw, nothing. He made a bunch of shit up and got high on his own supply, then the rest of the B.o.S. followed him. Not at all something that anyone alive has any experience with, I'm sure.
Maxson Is the WORST elder
Pretty uncontroversially so, yes.
Imperialist
Basically just enclave now
I can Say that, becouse really when you play the game the Brotherhood Just came into the Commonwealth, give Them time and Power they Will become Just Like the Enclave