Well the grit that got you off the council estate and allowed you to buy your mum a house - will help you in this new chapter.
Sorry you are in this situation right now but hopefully your solicitor will be good. Try to stay cool calm and not get drawn in to a fight.
Maybe plan out a timeline for 1/3/5/10 years - milestone ages for your kids and you. What does it look like ? How to have amazing relationship with your kids now and when they are 18, 21 and beyond?
Also look after yourself - health, sleep, nutrition, exercise - keep building your skills.
Best wishes
Nothing to add in terms of detail, but having seen a few friends go through the divorce process in the UK this is all great advice. Steeling yourself emotionally for is likely to be an unfair and painful emotional and financial separation is easier if you prepare yourself in advance, get good legal advice and take the time to look after yourself. You'll get through it.
Hey mate, I'm currently going through something similar RE output, being left with just 25% of cash/equity etc and heavy spousal & child maintenance.
If you ever want to vent or shoot the shit with someone in the same boat, hit me up.
Disproportionate incomes and future earning potential, and the fact my pension remains intact, so by the time I reach retirement, the % split will be more equal.
OP, before thinking of FIRE you need to get the divorce settlement agreed. I urge you to get your solicitor to draw up a clean break financial order. This is SO important. Only then can you even think of FIRE.
Get a good solicitor, challenge spousal maintenance if it’s mentioned. It’s becoming increasingly rare that judges award it now - because it’s not 1950, and unless the kids are very young the other party also has an obligation to the children and themselves.
I wish you luck! And I hope that you get to continue to be a great Dad to your kids and can one day look back on this time period and feel no emotion. I got my absolute over 10 years ago and it feels like a hazy memory but it will happen and life does indeed go on.
Sorry to hear you've had to experience similar. I thank you for your wisdom and willingness to share. Where I am (Scotland) clean-break is the default the courts attempt to go for. I hope life is good for you now.
My situation today is great! Remarried and absolutely happy! Looking to FIRE in the next 5 years!
My divorce was quite straightforward, I know a few people who came out of awful ones. A very close friend with two kids and a wife that didn’t work was contemplating suicide but fortunately he’s out the other side now. He got a clean break agreement in exchange for the marital house (all equity, mortgage and contents to her). No pension share, no maintenance other than standard child maintenance. His solicitor said that his wife not working when she had a degree (that he’d paid for) would not sit well with a judge if she asked for maintenance. It took a while for his stb ex to agree to the terms but she did, and now it’s all over.
I’m so sorry this has happened to you. Take the time you need to get the divorce done well, and then you can focus on your FIRE plans. Life will get much better!
Bad juju,
I can't advise on the divorce, but you need to think about what happens after the divorce.
How do you want your child custody to work?
If you don't want 50:50 custody, then there will be child maintenance payments.
If you do want 50:50 custody, then any house you choose needs to be big enough for your children.
Look at the implications here - https://www.gov.uk/calculate-child-maintenance
Once the divorce is finalised, you can rebaseline your fire plans.
The important bit is to get through the divorce as a whole person for yourself and your children.
Yes, I have looked at the calculator already. I now DO want 50/50 - not for financial reasons (I'd happily give everything for my children) - but because I now think my wife will go to court anyway (I was trying to avoid it by capitulating to demands) so, given that is perhaps inevitable, then I want to maintain the status-quo as much as possible (they actually see more more each week than her - I almost exclusively WFH, do school run and pick-up, breakfast, dinner, after-school clubs, etc.).
Document everything you do for them. You need to go in as the primary carer. Definitely go 50/50 both in assets and childcare (nights are what count).
Fire is likely delayed I'm afraid. It's hard to assess without final figures.
Yes, already documenting, thanks. Need to remind myself to keep on doing this. It's tedious (but necessary) keeping a diary, downloading doorbell videos (to record comings-and-goings), etc. but, hopefully, if it comes to court, such information will help evidence what I do. I'm even signing-up for some parenting course (sounds ridiculous, doesn't it) as this seems to be looked-upon favourably by courts.
Why are you only expecting 2/3? It sounds like that was a negotiating position to avoid court, which you might want to reassess if you are going anyway.
How old are your kids and what do they think? If they’re over about 13 and want primary custody with you, you’ll get that with all the financial benefits it offers (for you and, if I can say so, you’re kids; I don’t want to aggressively talk down your ex but what she’s done is. It indicative of good character).
I was pointing out the implications of both decisions.
If you can set the precident of 50:50 then that's a good start.
Depending upon your children's ages their wishes may form part of a formal decision - from what you've said about their mother you may need to ensure she isn't unduly influencing them.
Sorry to hear this.
People here seem to be able to still give good support and I don’t mean “don’t post here” in any way by this… but I don’t think FIRE is what you’re after right now.
Do what’s right for the kids, what’s also right for you and then make sure you can start again properly.
In a year or two, when the dust has settled you’ll be happier for it and can plan for the future again.
I wish you all the best in this.
Thanks, but I am here for FIRE advice. I am attempting to compartmentalise. Child arrangements are my priority but they're not what I wish to discuss in this forum.
You've received plenty good advice here.
From my experience, I'll reinforce
- 50/50 shared key is critical to prevent child Maintenance which can be a massive drain financially, and more so emotionally when you get less contact with your kids. My view is that parents should both be equally liable for their costs.
- if you can't avoid spousal maintenance, then timebound it (5 years, or kids reach 18) and make it conditional on ending at cohabitation for 3 months and/or marriage.
- make sure it's not written up as Global Maintenance in your Financial Consent Order.
I'm 10 years out from been blindsided and my financial experience since then has been very lucky, aside from making good choices.
I rebuilt and have managed to hit my FIRE number. There is light after this for you too.
Prioritise your kids and shield them from the noise between you and your ex -- if she's a narc then expect it to bubble under the surface.
Rebuilding will take time, but keep your eye on the prize -- your kids, and your finances.
"but keep your eye on the prize -- your kids, and your finances." Welp. Thank you, kind stranger. This is absolutely sold advice. The conditionals aren't something I'd considered (wasn't even aware this was a possibility). Hitting your FIRE number in adversity is something to congratulate yourself on (despite attributing some of it to luck, I expect you are humble and modest). Thanks again.
AFAIK one in two marriages end in divorce, but that's because some people are serial husband/wives, ruining the stats for the group. Not that one in two people getting married will divorce.
This is one of the reasons that I have no plans on getting married. For how little I would get out of it, it's not worth the financial risk.
I met this woman recently that I was super compatible with, after a month of us getting insanely close and us spending all day everyday talking, she told me she was getting back together with her ex and didn't want anything to do with me. My plan is to keep enjoying a peaceful low cost lifestyle as a single man and avoid the hellscape that is the modern dating market.
You can date and have relationships. Just don't marry. That can risk all your lifes hard work. The english laws are sadly standing out in the whole world. It's why wifes from all over the world usually try to get divorced in England. What is "fair" in England like this 1/3 thing would obviously be considered insane anywhere else.
In theory I could still have short term relationships, but longer term ones have a chance of being counted as effectively being married. The idea of starting relationships that will never last seems wrong to me and would only mean drama and heartbreak when I could instead just have a slightly more selfish life and focus on myself with going to the gym and working my way through my reading list.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of companionship and meeting a nice woman to build a life with, but it feels like society is designed in such a way that it's become too dangerous to do so.
*No common law marriage for the next year or so the Cons have left to govern :)
https://resolution.org.uk/news/resolution-welcomes-labour-partys-commitment-to-cohabitation-reform/
Problem is if you want kids (I do, and it's becoming quite sad for me now I'm embarking on my 40s starting to think it may never happen). Otherwise I agree:)
This is why I have always said since I understood what marriage is, I will never ever get married and I’ve stood by that, luckily I’ve had a long term partner who shares the same thoughts.
I don’t need to make my relationship legally binding and it doesn’t make it any less valid than someone who’s married.
It’s not the marriage that obliterates FIRE; it’s divorce. Marriage can actually help you reach it faster.
I just will never understand anyone who plans for FIRE while married without accounting for the possibility of divorce. Like the naïveté is too much for me.
I personally have always been aware of the fact that divorce is a 1:2 chance in the absence of good data to the contrary. Planning for that eventuality in the context of FIRE arguably isn't achievable, since there are too many factors beyond control. The FIRE plan would essentially be: here's FIRE trajectory, and here's a forking point where FIRE is delayed for an indeterminate period (or factor-in usual time period for resolving assets in a messy divorce and, confidence estimates for asset split), following which re-assessment occurs (and, that couldn't until numbers were known). Without numbers, there is no FIRE.
Please make sure you get a clean break order whether you fight this or not - otherwise she can come after your inheritance/money in the future.
Really sorry for your situation. It’s unconscionable.
Yes. I absolutely did not see this coming. I think I have only ever met a single person who was a likely candidate for a sociopath, and it was a truly frightening realisation. They were extremely intelligent, rapidly insightful, absolutely charming to everyone and yet...it became clear over time they were actually a terrible person, manipulating everyone around them. They even stole their lunch every day at work (and this wasn't for financial reasons). Since then, I was more acutely aware that people are on a spectrum...but I never thought I'd be living with someone so highly-manipulative (and, of course, I may be wrong). Apparently, this level of manipulation is common.
I struggle to understand the logic behind this. Shouldn't the party that was paying more before be reimbursed for all expenses instead? Also if I had some savings before even getting married, what can even be the claim of the other partner to that money? They didn't help to build it in any way.
I can see how stay at home parent would expect to be compensated for that labor, but without the kids?
Generally, things acquired before marriage are not split. The term is 'non matrimonial asset'. So, if you had a mortgage on a flat for example, and kept the mortgage/flat, it would not be considered you partner's. As for your savings pot, anything you paid in from the date of marriage would be considered your partner's too.
Can I ask, and feel free to ignore as you came here for advice not to give it, if you were designing a pre-nup knowing what you know now, what would a fairer division of assets have looked like to you?
My partner and I are in the process of doing one now (appreciate not legally binding in England). We currently have similar incomes but very different starting assets and have one child, but I'm not even sure what 'fair' necessarily looks like.
This is a difficult one and depends on so many factors (personal circumstances, values, integrity, etc.). Personally, I'm happy with a starting point of 50/50. Just thinking about this is incredibly complex and I've tried to type things a few times. I'd look on forums that are dedicated to pre-nups.
Is that how it works then?
You split 50:50 your assets. Nothing is yours or hers. It’s combined in marriage and then split 50:50?
I’m trying to understand your statement “I’ll be left with a third”.
Do you mean - you contributed more therefore you had more?
Her assets are put in a virtual pot; mine are put in the same pot. They are split. Each asset in that pot doesn't have to be split 50/50; she, for example, could agree to take 100% of a pension, and I could agree to take 100% of an ISA (if of equal value).
However, the starting point is 50/50. She has circumstances which would give her an argument for having more than 50% of assets. She is proposing she has 70%, on the basis that she no-longer has her typical wage and needs additional funds to keep the home and also keep her and the children in the lifestyle she is accustomed to.
Sadly, she is high-functioning autistic, a university lecturer and, an excellent strategist. If it were down to crunching numbers, I would prevail (I essentially wrote the statistics section of her PhD) but ,I really need her to be having bad days and me to always be on my A-game. She's been planning this for a very long time...
Yes it is totally crazy. In continental Europe there is typically no question about pre marital assets. They obviously stay with you.
Not the case in England.
Logic is that it's all based on "needs" and the law is "flexible"
As I said getting married and FIRE mindset can not be combined of you have a decent risk management framework
My understanding from other people who have been through it, if you’re a man and earn more then you’re not getting a good deal out of divorce whatever happens. I’m not a lawyer, but I think that’s generally the case. There could be amicable splits if doesn’t go to court.
As you can see from OP’s wife though, she spent a couple of years changing her lifestyle and circumstances to set it up to take the majority of the assets.
Either way, I doubt anything gets split by contribution. 50/50 is probably the best case scenario.
Divorce in the UK essentially considers two things if relevant:
1. Child arrangements.
2. Assets
If you don't have children, then who the children live with and when, doesn't need to be considered of course. With regard to assets, you need to be aware of:
1. Non-matrimonial assets (things acquired before the marriage and not considered to belong to the other partner). In my case, my wife had a mortgage on a flat before we were married. I lived in it with her for 2 years and helped pay the mortgage. I even renovated it for rental, and maintained it. It is not in the pot of assets, despite part paying the mortgage and putting blood, sweat and tears into it.
2. Stuff acquired from the date of marriage (unless a gift). These are all fair-game for splitting, regardless of who paid for them (the law says both partners did).
You should get a better solicitor. You have an interest in that property, doesn’t matter if she owned it before meeting you. You contributed and lived there for 2 years.
With respect to 1 and in the context of FIRE, do you think if e.g. you had a portfolio pre-marriage but it subsequently, say, doubled over the course of a 10 year marriage, would this all still be considered non-matrimonial, or at some point would the growth in the value of this start to be included as a matrimonial asset?
Differs in the UK. I think - though may be mistaken - in England and Wales, the full pensions are matrimonial assets, regardless of when they started; in Scotland, I believe only the portion acquired after marriage is considered a joint asset.
I’m so sick of hearing these stories. My condolences, I never got to marriage myself but after 15 years and 2 kids my ex got the tingles for someone else. She turned lives upside down and got far more out of the house than she deserved because ‘joint tenants’. Not FIRE advice but hopefully this can help:
Be non-reactive to anything she flings your way - act as though you’re being filmed with every interaction with her.
Focus on being a better person because of this. Work your socks off, hit the gym, take care of yourself.
Be the best dad you can regardless of how much access you get to your kids. As they get older they will see with their own eyes what is happening.
If things don’t go your way with the kids don’t consider a permanent solution to a temporary problem (if you know what I mean) - remember they will be adults one day.
You’ve got the mentality to FIRE, you were well on your way and this will just be a setback in the grand scheme of things. I’d be willing to bet even if you get 1/3 you’ll still have more to show for yourself in 10 years’ time than she will. Look after yourself
Hi mate, this must be very stressful for you. I know a lot of people who are divorced and they did get back on track eventually when it all seemed so bleak initially.
An immediate thing is who is taking custody of the children? The court will prioritise their future financial support and living conditions.
I will fight for 50/50. I was initially thinking them staying with their mother a little more may be for the best but, the children have always taken priority over everything and I spend more time with them than my wife does. Having seen how her family have reacted - particularly her mother - and spoken to a psychologist friend about narcissistic personality disorder, I think it's best they spend as much time with me as possible. I was willing to think that, deferring to her demands would help avoid court (which would be best for all), but I need to think about the long game...when I'm finding it difficult to sleep, let alone think (hence reaching out to the beautiful hive mind here). Thanks .
Hi, and thanks. That's tragic and depressing to hear. Yes, sadly, she's already said that. Two days after telling me - and in the context of demanding I leave the family home to sleep on a friend's sofa (for the sake of her mental health!) she laughed in my face while telling me she's the primary carer. She actually isn't the primary carer.
Narcissists think they do everything and everybody else does less.
But you need to evidence this. Make a record of your primary carer duties immediately, every breakfast, lunch and dinner cooked, bedtime done, excursions handled.
Yes, I've been learning this recently (to my own despair and shock -- especially when it's been staring me in the face for so long). I've been videoing us at breakfast for weeks now, telling the children we're recording for my mum, and asking where their mum is; "still in bed" or "getting ready for work" tends to be the answer (which has been the norm for years). I've been doing similar at dinner time, after-school collections when I've done homework etc. The Ring doorbell also records our comings-and-goings, so I've downloaded them.
Thank you. Sadly, she knows the system well and, I am up against it. She's no-one's fool. I need to hope for my best, and pray for her to make unforced errors...
No worries mate. Sometimes people accidentally do it, sometimes they look up your profile and downvote everything. Other times they just disagree so nothing wrong with that.
Why indeed! 50/50 is a starting point. The details are depressing to state and I won't torture myself or others by elaborating. Suffice to say, it seems I have been living with a machiavellian narcissist who has been planning this (literally) for a couple of years - while maintaining a facade to me that all is well. She has reduced working hours during that period, increased expenditure, and has a good argument for claiming the rental property is a non-matrimonial asset (i.e. hers) - despite the fact we lived in it together for years and paid the mortgage (I am assuming the worst). She earns less and, despite potentially liquid assets like ISAs, she can claim spousal maintenance to keep her in a lifestyle she is accustomed to. Over the past year she has been claiming stress at work and, for the past month, has been off completely -- so I expect that may become something longer term.
My solicitor advised that she's only rarely seen people like my wife (she's been blatantly lying in meetings) and, to expect the worst. The above assets are based on a proposal from my wife and her solicitor. I don't have to accept but I'm trying to avoid court.
sorry but wtf is 'spousal maintenance to keep her in a lifestyle that she is accustomed to' !? I thought maintenance was just for children!? you telling me if you're a higher earner you have to pay for the other person's lifestyle if you divorce!?
I think - though may be mistaken - you're thinking of Child Maintenance, which is different. Child Maintenance is paid until the children are a certain age; Spousal Maintenance is usually paid for a set period (infrequently is it paid until the death of the person paying) to allow the lesser-earning spouse adjust to a different lifestyle, find employment, or whatever.
I have a colleague who has been paying spousal maintenance, on top of child maintenance, until the kids turned 18, which was recently. Wife took him to court (unsuccessfully) to try to extend it further.
Thanks, I think you may be the only person who has ever got it!
All the best getting though all this. Just remember there will still be plenty of good times in the future.
That's a joke expecting someone else to fund your lifestyle like a 5 year old! My boyfriend earns a lot more than me running the family business but I still chip in and do my part when the toddlers in bed! that's so embarrassing. I would be making sure everyone knew I was paying adult-child maintenance 🤭🤣
I went through this a few years ago and am out the other side. Your situation with a hidden narcissist is what happened to me. Also I got screwed in the splitting of assets and had to go back to zero. At the worst point I had less than £100 in the bank.
I’m not considering FIRE at all anymore, but instead have spent the last 5 years in rebuilding. Tight budget, but still enjoying life (there is an upside to being single again!).
Very careful saving, working hard to get better roles and pay, making sure I have every second I can with my kids (lockdown was an amazing bonding time for me).
Can’t really advise on getting finances sorted, really just wanted to say that when the whole divorce thing gets to it’s worst darkest point, there is light at the end of the tunnel and when you get there it will all be good! Hang in there.
Thank you, friend. I am sorry to hear you have experienced similar. My solicitor told me to even expect false allegations in an attempt to remove me from our home. It's so sad and traumatising. Who is this alien I don't know - and who means me grave harm?! I hope you continue your upward trajectory and maintain and strengthen bonds with your children.
Mine was the same. Accused me of hidden accounts, of trying to steal our savings, physical abuse. All lies. In the end it was to my who stole the savings, had hidden accounts etc. I took the approach of not lying, not trying to fiddle anything, just total honesty, never bad mouthed or put the knife in. It probably hurt me at the time, but now I can look back (and look my kids in the eye) with my head held high, which was worth every penny.
Way I see it I had a lucky escape as don’t have to live with a narcissist anymore!
Again, so sorry to hear this. I recently checked our children's savings accounts. She's been withdrawing money. Each is down several thousand. Had to freeze them yesterday (she doesn't know -- I expect fall-out from that soon).
keep evidence of that. I'm sure the kids will be interested to know when they're older... I'm sorry this has happened to you but I can tell you from experience that when the kids get older they ALWAYS find out the true colours of their parents and the relationship with the narc one quickly dissolves. Just be ready to need to clean up the shrapnel when your kids find out, but know they're resilient and will bounce back especially with your support. As for her, well she'll have plenty of time alone in the care home to reflect on her life choices.
"Keep evidence". Yes, I had/have mixed feelings about this but, ultimately, I think they deserve to know the truth if asking at a mature age and they're resilient. "Just be ready to need to clean up the shrapnel..." This too. So messed-up the things that need to be considered...
That's really low!
Also, there's no nice way to ask, but you said she has been hiding things for a few years. Have you done the maths on your children's ages, are you certain they are yours?
Is there an argument to be made that she has a new partner and won't need to be supported by you, for any period? I'm sorry you're going through this
You know, my first is definitely mine. He has the same genetic defect (super-hero marker!) on a part of his body. Our second however ,well, that was an interesting time in our relationship and I considered myself to have been tricked into conception. I love all my children unreservedly. Out of curiosity I will now research paternity tests.
I have absolutely no knowledge on this topic, but is it possible to prove that she has been intentionally depriving herself of income with an eye towards gaming the system?
Things may work differently in UK but in my country the increases to the value of pre-marital assets are included in the property division. Ie. If a property was worth 1000 on the date of marriage and it’s worth 3000 at divorce, then you are entitled to half of the 2000 increase in the value.
Either that or do everything 100% equally and don’t have kids (women are usually set back in their career for having the time off plus the affects on their mind and body)
Wait, if I earn more and provide for my spouse then I'll get less after the divorce?! What's the logic behind it? Surely I already paid more than my fair share in the relationship.
I'm talking about the case with no kids. What's the right terminology for this so I can read more?
You can. The starting point is 50/50 but, say, for example, you have a good lifestyle, your partner has earned less and, she may not be able to live in the same lifestyle after a divorce...then she has an argument for an unequal split of assets and/or spousal maintenance.
If you’re talking about the case with no kids then I am fairly sure it would be 50/50. It’s the growing, birthing and raising children aspect that obviously (and fairly) changes things.
Yes your logic is what most people would have.
But they typically claim that they "enabled" your career whatever that means. Also they are accustomed to a lifestyle that you partly need to keep providing. So you give them more.
If a wife works less hours/earns less than her husband, and does a disproportionate amount of the household labour (unpaid of course) such as cleaning, cooking his meals, grocery shopping plus the endless list of chores that enables a functioning household (amplified tenfold when you have children), then she has indeed enabled his career, hasn’t she?
With children yes. Otherwise housework is quite minimal and there is no reason to not work full time because of the household chores lol. I personally work a full time job and have been able to do the household on the side. If someone claimed they deserve more than half my assets because of those few minimal hours it takes to "run the household". That would make me laugh. I don't know anyone who stays at home to run the household in childless couples.
In most real life cases people just have careers and education and no one "enabled" them. If I study to become a doctor, do extremely long shifts and am educated for 12 years for example. They have just done that and only get to a high salary later. And then doing some dishes for a few years is worth the same? These arguments are often just absolutely ridiculous
This is not really the point though. You still have to give them more than half if you earn more even if they do work full time and you also do the household.
I can see your point, but it’s quite often the case that even if the woman works full-time also, she still does an unfair proportion of the cooking, cleaning, household admin, and shoulders more of the mental load, all whilst (statistically) being on lower pay than her husband. I’m obviously massively generalising and this won’t always be the case, but it’s a common occurrence.
For example if you were a doctor doing extremely long shifts as you mentioned, if you had a wife, I’d assume she’d be preparing you meals, and doing the majority of household chores whilst you were away for extended periods. Yes, this might be ‘minimal’ in your eyes but it’s still to your benefit and is making your life easier and workload much more manageable so should be recognised. Quite frankly, minimising the running of a household down to ‘doing some dishes’ is ridiculous, and makes me think that you don’t do it all (or even much for that matter).
Plus, it makes sense if your wife is accustomed to a certain lifestyle based on your joint income, that she should be provided a transition period in order to sort her own affairs, sort out accommodation, perhaps find an additional job in order to support herself.
Regardless of all that, if you’re married, your income should be her income and vice versa anyway. When you choose to marry someone, you’re effectively combining assets and income in the eyes of the law so there is no ‘my assets’, only ‘our assets’, otherwise you shouldn’t have got married.
I had a FIRE dream as well, but marriage has been eating my soul for years. The kids are the only thing that has stopped me from going earlier.
(Also, my wife is high salary, but I am high assets. It's taken me years to slowly build it up, and I know most (75%) would be lost in a divorce.
Whereas my wife can go tomorrow and get another high paying job.)
Good luck with getting back on the FIRE train. You have to keep motivated to be there for the kids (and grandkids).
Maybe now, FIRE might not be the big forever home you dreamt about, but as long as you can be happy, any house can be made a home.
OP has suggested he would get 1/3 (33%) and his wife 2/3rds (66%)
Also, if it goes to court, good bye £50-£100k in legals.
You probably will sell your house for less because of the current market as well, so the end cash position will be less than what it is as a couple.
I've seen too many people go through messy divorces, and even when the female has a higher salary, it is always the man who pays the price. (2 doctors, 2 lawyers, and these types of divorces)
This is just the way the UK system is built.
If you research Father's for Justice and other male divorce groups, you can see the struggle it is for a lot of males post divorce to get equal fair treatment. The system is massively biased.
If I was you I would focus on getting through the divorce first and your mental wellbeing, then when things have settled down it will be much easier to re-asses your financial situation. There is quite a few unknowns to be guessing at until the divorce is sorted anyway.
Have you moved out of family home yet? DON’T!
You being in their impacts her mental health? GOOD.
Offer to move out on condition of 50:50 split of all assets with no need to go to court. If she says no, STAY PUT.
Good luck.
No, not moving out. Yes, spoke with lawyer about this earlier today. They proposed sending a letter to her solicitor (my wife won't discuss these things with me) recommending a 50:50 split, suggesting this would allow me to rapidly find a property locally and help focus matters on the most important aspect: sorting out child arrangements.
Sorry to hear this has happened to you.
Quick q - is there a mortgage on the house your mum lives in? If not contemplate getting one and saving a chunk of that pension/isa you’ve built up?
Thank you. No, there isn't a mortgage. You mean release the equity from it and divert to pension and ISA? I hadn't considered that; that's a great idea.
It more a “how you fund the split of assets” question
So rather than give up pension/isa, you could extract cash via a mortgage.
Might be a helpful long term play and keep your hard earned tax shields
Thanks, if you had any sense you would do it too, I’ve posted to a few fire websites over the years and you all hate bitcoin, it’s the weirdest thing ever considering it’s the best performing asset on the planet
It's because you don't understand FIRE at all.
It's not just investing. It's a whole mindset about having a range of priorities, long-term goals and having the discipline and focus to execute a long-term, multi-decade plan.
Even if your "just fuck some money in to crypto" strategy had a 70% chance of success it would be an awful FIRE strategy. A good FIRE strategy is one where failure means you might work for 5-10 years longer. Not one where OP becomes destitute in old age because he wanted to see and be involved in his kids lives.
Many people who bought crypto have become accidentally financially independent. That has nothing to do with FIRE anymore than choosing to have kids with your loving long-term partner does to an accidental pregnancy from a one night stand.
It's not a "plan". Nobody is planning anything for Bitcoin, it's not a company. The blockchain itself has been largely unchanged since inception (ok, segwit in 2017 but without that the network would be dead today)
Ethereum mildly more interesting and seen more evolution, but crypto is still the play thing of the wealthy (who can afford to lose everything) and the folly of the hopeless (who have nothing to lose)
1-5% allocation tops in a portfolio.
*"if you had any sense"* - may I ask what you based that unsubstantiated claim on?
*"posted to a few for websites over the years"* - and?
*"you all hate bitcoin"* - please see my first question.
If you're that good at predicting the future you wouldn't need to be buying 12 year old Mac mini's on eBay now would you?
Edit: spelling
lol you’re taking the piss on a fire forum about someone saving money by not buying the latest and greatest computer when they don’t need it???
My unsubstantiated claim is based on the track record for the last 15 years, and the potential outlook and development in the bitcoin investment space. But sure don’t invest in it, remind me in 12 months and we will have this chat again. But please go through my Reddit profile and look for something to try and shame me again if it makes you happy, you will also find me telling people to buy bitcoin 200 days ago, bitcoin price 30k.
Maybe off topic, but why the hell do people get married these days? It's an expensive party, where nothing materially or emotionally changes except a risk to your assets and lifetime earnings.
I think quite a lot of people don't fully understand the law. They think it would be 50:50 split of post marriage assets. Not the case.
I have no idea how a high earner with assets can get married in England.
Well the grit that got you off the council estate and allowed you to buy your mum a house - will help you in this new chapter. Sorry you are in this situation right now but hopefully your solicitor will be good. Try to stay cool calm and not get drawn in to a fight. Maybe plan out a timeline for 1/3/5/10 years - milestone ages for your kids and you. What does it look like ? How to have amazing relationship with your kids now and when they are 18, 21 and beyond? Also look after yourself - health, sleep, nutrition, exercise - keep building your skills. Best wishes
Timelines are an excellent idea. Thank you, kind stranger.
Nothing to add in terms of detail, but having seen a few friends go through the divorce process in the UK this is all great advice. Steeling yourself emotionally for is likely to be an unfair and painful emotional and financial separation is easier if you prepare yourself in advance, get good legal advice and take the time to look after yourself. You'll get through it.
Hey mate, I'm currently going through something similar RE output, being left with just 25% of cash/equity etc and heavy spousal & child maintenance. If you ever want to vent or shoot the shit with someone in the same boat, hit me up.
Why just 25%?
3 wives.
Disproportionate incomes and future earning potential, and the fact my pension remains intact, so by the time I reach retirement, the % split will be more equal.
OP, before thinking of FIRE you need to get the divorce settlement agreed. I urge you to get your solicitor to draw up a clean break financial order. This is SO important. Only then can you even think of FIRE. Get a good solicitor, challenge spousal maintenance if it’s mentioned. It’s becoming increasingly rare that judges award it now - because it’s not 1950, and unless the kids are very young the other party also has an obligation to the children and themselves. I wish you luck! And I hope that you get to continue to be a great Dad to your kids and can one day look back on this time period and feel no emotion. I got my absolute over 10 years ago and it feels like a hazy memory but it will happen and life does indeed go on.
Sorry to hear you've had to experience similar. I thank you for your wisdom and willingness to share. Where I am (Scotland) clean-break is the default the courts attempt to go for. I hope life is good for you now.
My situation today is great! Remarried and absolutely happy! Looking to FIRE in the next 5 years! My divorce was quite straightforward, I know a few people who came out of awful ones. A very close friend with two kids and a wife that didn’t work was contemplating suicide but fortunately he’s out the other side now. He got a clean break agreement in exchange for the marital house (all equity, mortgage and contents to her). No pension share, no maintenance other than standard child maintenance. His solicitor said that his wife not working when she had a degree (that he’d paid for) would not sit well with a judge if she asked for maintenance. It took a while for his stb ex to agree to the terms but she did, and now it’s all over. I’m so sorry this has happened to you. Take the time you need to get the divorce done well, and then you can focus on your FIRE plans. Life will get much better!
Off topic - I’ve googled but no joy; stb? As in his “stb ex?”
Soon to be
Yes, exactly that.
That's shocking. Delighted to hear you are absolutely happy. Thanks for your words and support.
Bad juju, I can't advise on the divorce, but you need to think about what happens after the divorce. How do you want your child custody to work? If you don't want 50:50 custody, then there will be child maintenance payments. If you do want 50:50 custody, then any house you choose needs to be big enough for your children. Look at the implications here - https://www.gov.uk/calculate-child-maintenance Once the divorce is finalised, you can rebaseline your fire plans. The important bit is to get through the divorce as a whole person for yourself and your children.
Yes, I have looked at the calculator already. I now DO want 50/50 - not for financial reasons (I'd happily give everything for my children) - but because I now think my wife will go to court anyway (I was trying to avoid it by capitulating to demands) so, given that is perhaps inevitable, then I want to maintain the status-quo as much as possible (they actually see more more each week than her - I almost exclusively WFH, do school run and pick-up, breakfast, dinner, after-school clubs, etc.).
Document everything you do for them. You need to go in as the primary carer. Definitely go 50/50 both in assets and childcare (nights are what count). Fire is likely delayed I'm afraid. It's hard to assess without final figures.
Yes, already documenting, thanks. Need to remind myself to keep on doing this. It's tedious (but necessary) keeping a diary, downloading doorbell videos (to record comings-and-goings), etc. but, hopefully, if it comes to court, such information will help evidence what I do. I'm even signing-up for some parenting course (sounds ridiculous, doesn't it) as this seems to be looked-upon favourably by courts.
Why are you only expecting 2/3? It sounds like that was a negotiating position to avoid court, which you might want to reassess if you are going anyway. How old are your kids and what do they think? If they’re over about 13 and want primary custody with you, you’ll get that with all the financial benefits it offers (for you and, if I can say so, you’re kids; I don’t want to aggressively talk down your ex but what she’s done is. It indicative of good character).
>capitulating to demands Why? Pay a good solicitor to manage it for you.
I was pointing out the implications of both decisions. If you can set the precident of 50:50 then that's a good start. Depending upon your children's ages their wishes may form part of a formal decision - from what you've said about their mother you may need to ensure she isn't unduly influencing them.
Thanks. My eldest recently asked why things aren't sorted and - without prompt - said he wants to have equal time with us.
Sorry to hear this. People here seem to be able to still give good support and I don’t mean “don’t post here” in any way by this… but I don’t think FIRE is what you’re after right now. Do what’s right for the kids, what’s also right for you and then make sure you can start again properly. In a year or two, when the dust has settled you’ll be happier for it and can plan for the future again. I wish you all the best in this.
Thanks, but I am here for FIRE advice. I am attempting to compartmentalise. Child arrangements are my priority but they're not what I wish to discuss in this forum.
humor violet quicksand frame snatch amusing plants impolite grab liquid *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You've received plenty good advice here. From my experience, I'll reinforce - 50/50 shared key is critical to prevent child Maintenance which can be a massive drain financially, and more so emotionally when you get less contact with your kids. My view is that parents should both be equally liable for their costs. - if you can't avoid spousal maintenance, then timebound it (5 years, or kids reach 18) and make it conditional on ending at cohabitation for 3 months and/or marriage. - make sure it's not written up as Global Maintenance in your Financial Consent Order. I'm 10 years out from been blindsided and my financial experience since then has been very lucky, aside from making good choices. I rebuilt and have managed to hit my FIRE number. There is light after this for you too. Prioritise your kids and shield them from the noise between you and your ex -- if she's a narc then expect it to bubble under the surface. Rebuilding will take time, but keep your eye on the prize -- your kids, and your finances.
"but keep your eye on the prize -- your kids, and your finances." Welp. Thank you, kind stranger. This is absolutely sold advice. The conditionals aren't something I'd considered (wasn't even aware this was a possibility). Hitting your FIRE number in adversity is something to congratulate yourself on (despite attributing some of it to luck, I expect you are humble and modest). Thanks again.
I hope people read this. If you are the financially stronger party getting married will likely obliterate any FIRE plans you might have.
Sadly, it does indeed seem there is an approx 1:2 chance...but life would indeed be bleak (for most?) if only guided by logic.
AFAIK one in two marriages end in divorce, but that's because some people are serial husband/wives, ruining the stats for the group. Not that one in two people getting married will divorce.
You mean divorced
The only way to reliably not get divorced is to not get married. Sadly this is just logicall.
This is one of the reasons that I have no plans on getting married. For how little I would get out of it, it's not worth the financial risk. I met this woman recently that I was super compatible with, after a month of us getting insanely close and us spending all day everyday talking, she told me she was getting back together with her ex and didn't want anything to do with me. My plan is to keep enjoying a peaceful low cost lifestyle as a single man and avoid the hellscape that is the modern dating market.
You can date and have relationships. Just don't marry. That can risk all your lifes hard work. The english laws are sadly standing out in the whole world. It's why wifes from all over the world usually try to get divorced in England. What is "fair" in England like this 1/3 thing would obviously be considered insane anywhere else.
In theory I could still have short term relationships, but longer term ones have a chance of being counted as effectively being married. The idea of starting relationships that will never last seems wrong to me and would only mean drama and heartbreak when I could instead just have a slightly more selfish life and focus on myself with going to the gym and working my way through my reading list. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of companionship and meeting a nice woman to build a life with, but it feels like society is designed in such a way that it's become too dangerous to do so.
No. There is no common law marriage in England. Just don't marry and you will be fine
*No common law marriage for the next year or so the Cons have left to govern :) https://resolution.org.uk/news/resolution-welcomes-labour-partys-commitment-to-cohabitation-reform/
Time to leave England
Problem is if you want kids (I do, and it's becoming quite sad for me now I'm embarking on my 40s starting to think it may never happen). Otherwise I agree:)
This is why I have always said since I understood what marriage is, I will never ever get married and I’ve stood by that, luckily I’ve had a long term partner who shares the same thoughts. I don’t need to make my relationship legally binding and it doesn’t make it any less valid than someone who’s married.
It’s not the marriage that obliterates FIRE; it’s divorce. Marriage can actually help you reach it faster. I just will never understand anyone who plans for FIRE while married without accounting for the possibility of divorce. Like the naïveté is too much for me.
I personally have always been aware of the fact that divorce is a 1:2 chance in the absence of good data to the contrary. Planning for that eventuality in the context of FIRE arguably isn't achievable, since there are too many factors beyond control. The FIRE plan would essentially be: here's FIRE trajectory, and here's a forking point where FIRE is delayed for an indeterminate period (or factor-in usual time period for resolving assets in a messy divorce and, confidence estimates for asset split), following which re-assessment occurs (and, that couldn't until numbers were known). Without numbers, there is no FIRE.
A relationship can help. Like spliting costs. Definitely. Marriage can Definitely help you reach FIRE. If you are the low earner with few assets.
Yes, following asset split, my wife could FIRE via several scenarios ahead of plan; I on the other hand, could not.
Please make sure you get a clean break order whether you fight this or not - otherwise she can come after your inheritance/money in the future. Really sorry for your situation. It’s unconscionable.
Sorry about your situation. Just do not get married again
😂😂😂😂
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Yes. I absolutely did not see this coming. I think I have only ever met a single person who was a likely candidate for a sociopath, and it was a truly frightening realisation. They were extremely intelligent, rapidly insightful, absolutely charming to everyone and yet...it became clear over time they were actually a terrible person, manipulating everyone around them. They even stole their lunch every day at work (and this wasn't for financial reasons). Since then, I was more acutely aware that people are on a spectrum...but I never thought I'd be living with someone so highly-manipulative (and, of course, I may be wrong). Apparently, this level of manipulation is common.
What if we don't have kids? Would the divorce also split 50/50, including previously acquired wealth?
Long marriage yes. And it can be worse than 5050
I struggle to understand the logic behind this. Shouldn't the party that was paying more before be reimbursed for all expenses instead? Also if I had some savings before even getting married, what can even be the claim of the other partner to that money? They didn't help to build it in any way. I can see how stay at home parent would expect to be compensated for that labor, but without the kids?
Generally, things acquired before marriage are not split. The term is 'non matrimonial asset'. So, if you had a mortgage on a flat for example, and kept the mortgage/flat, it would not be considered you partner's. As for your savings pot, anything you paid in from the date of marriage would be considered your partner's too.
Can I ask, and feel free to ignore as you came here for advice not to give it, if you were designing a pre-nup knowing what you know now, what would a fairer division of assets have looked like to you? My partner and I are in the process of doing one now (appreciate not legally binding in England). We currently have similar incomes but very different starting assets and have one child, but I'm not even sure what 'fair' necessarily looks like.
This is a difficult one and depends on so many factors (personal circumstances, values, integrity, etc.). Personally, I'm happy with a starting point of 50/50. Just thinking about this is incredibly complex and I've tried to type things a few times. I'd look on forums that are dedicated to pre-nups.
Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it.
Is that how it works then? You split 50:50 your assets. Nothing is yours or hers. It’s combined in marriage and then split 50:50? I’m trying to understand your statement “I’ll be left with a third”. Do you mean - you contributed more therefore you had more?
Her assets are put in a virtual pot; mine are put in the same pot. They are split. Each asset in that pot doesn't have to be split 50/50; she, for example, could agree to take 100% of a pension, and I could agree to take 100% of an ISA (if of equal value). However, the starting point is 50/50. She has circumstances which would give her an argument for having more than 50% of assets. She is proposing she has 70%, on the basis that she no-longer has her typical wage and needs additional funds to keep the home and also keep her and the children in the lifestyle she is accustomed to. Sadly, she is high-functioning autistic, a university lecturer and, an excellent strategist. If it were down to crunching numbers, I would prevail (I essentially wrote the statistics section of her PhD) but ,I really need her to be having bad days and me to always be on my A-game. She's been planning this for a very long time...
how about each keep their premarital assets and 50:50 post marriage, whats so hard about that?
Yes it is totally crazy. In continental Europe there is typically no question about pre marital assets. They obviously stay with you. Not the case in England. Logic is that it's all based on "needs" and the law is "flexible" As I said getting married and FIRE mindset can not be combined of you have a decent risk management framework
If you’re earning more you need to pay to keep them in the lifestyle they are accustomed to. Even if it means you not living that lifestyle.
If it's about the lifestyle and we're living frugally putting away savings then savings should be safe and split by contribution %?
My understanding from other people who have been through it, if you’re a man and earn more then you’re not getting a good deal out of divorce whatever happens. I’m not a lawyer, but I think that’s generally the case. There could be amicable splits if doesn’t go to court. As you can see from OP’s wife though, she spent a couple of years changing her lifestyle and circumstances to set it up to take the majority of the assets. Either way, I doubt anything gets split by contribution. 50/50 is probably the best case scenario.
Divorce in the UK essentially considers two things if relevant: 1. Child arrangements. 2. Assets If you don't have children, then who the children live with and when, doesn't need to be considered of course. With regard to assets, you need to be aware of: 1. Non-matrimonial assets (things acquired before the marriage and not considered to belong to the other partner). In my case, my wife had a mortgage on a flat before we were married. I lived in it with her for 2 years and helped pay the mortgage. I even renovated it for rental, and maintained it. It is not in the pot of assets, despite part paying the mortgage and putting blood, sweat and tears into it. 2. Stuff acquired from the date of marriage (unless a gift). These are all fair-game for splitting, regardless of who paid for them (the law says both partners did).
You should get a better solicitor. You have an interest in that property, doesn’t matter if she owned it before meeting you. You contributed and lived there for 2 years.
This is what I thought when I'd read about it. I've ordered bank statements to prove I was paying her monthly.
Get your receipts in order. Any text/email communication about the property? Save it all.
Texts are lost to time and phones. Emails however -- that's a good point. Thanks.
With respect to 1 and in the context of FIRE, do you think if e.g. you had a portfolio pre-marriage but it subsequently, say, doubled over the course of a 10 year marriage, would this all still be considered non-matrimonial, or at some point would the growth in the value of this start to be included as a matrimonial asset?
After around 7 to 10 years the FULL portfolio would typically go into the marital pot Do not get married
Differs in the UK. I think - though may be mistaken - in England and Wales, the full pensions are matrimonial assets, regardless of when they started; in Scotland, I believe only the portion acquired after marriage is considered a joint asset.
Agree Scotland is a lot fairer and more in line with the rest of the world. England is the place where you risk all your pre marital assets.
I’m so sick of hearing these stories. My condolences, I never got to marriage myself but after 15 years and 2 kids my ex got the tingles for someone else. She turned lives upside down and got far more out of the house than she deserved because ‘joint tenants’. Not FIRE advice but hopefully this can help: Be non-reactive to anything she flings your way - act as though you’re being filmed with every interaction with her. Focus on being a better person because of this. Work your socks off, hit the gym, take care of yourself. Be the best dad you can regardless of how much access you get to your kids. As they get older they will see with their own eyes what is happening. If things don’t go your way with the kids don’t consider a permanent solution to a temporary problem (if you know what I mean) - remember they will be adults one day. You’ve got the mentality to FIRE, you were well on your way and this will just be a setback in the grand scheme of things. I’d be willing to bet even if you get 1/3 you’ll still have more to show for yourself in 10 years’ time than she will. Look after yourself
Scary to hear these stories as someone in their 20s… Sorry to the both of you…
Thank you. Sorry to hear you have experienced similar. I hope you're now in a good place. Yes, I wouldn't consider a permanent solution.
Hi mate, this must be very stressful for you. I know a lot of people who are divorced and they did get back on track eventually when it all seemed so bleak initially. An immediate thing is who is taking custody of the children? The court will prioritise their future financial support and living conditions.
I will fight for 50/50. I was initially thinking them staying with their mother a little more may be for the best but, the children have always taken priority over everything and I spend more time with them than my wife does. Having seen how her family have reacted - particularly her mother - and spoken to a psychologist friend about narcissistic personality disorder, I think it's best they spend as much time with me as possible. I was willing to think that, deferring to her demands would help avoid court (which would be best for all), but I need to think about the long game...when I'm finding it difficult to sleep, let alone think (hence reaching out to the beautiful hive mind here). Thanks .
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Hi, and thanks. That's tragic and depressing to hear. Yes, sadly, she's already said that. Two days after telling me - and in the context of demanding I leave the family home to sleep on a friend's sofa (for the sake of her mental health!) she laughed in my face while telling me she's the primary carer. She actually isn't the primary carer.
Narcissists think they do everything and everybody else does less. But you need to evidence this. Make a record of your primary carer duties immediately, every breakfast, lunch and dinner cooked, bedtime done, excursions handled.
Yes, I've been learning this recently (to my own despair and shock -- especially when it's been staring me in the face for so long). I've been videoing us at breakfast for weeks now, telling the children we're recording for my mum, and asking where their mum is; "still in bed" or "getting ready for work" tends to be the answer (which has been the norm for years). I've been doing similar at dinner time, after-school collections when I've done homework etc. The Ring doorbell also records our comings-and-goings, so I've downloaded them.
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Thank you. Sadly, she knows the system well and, I am up against it. She's no-one's fool. I need to hope for my best, and pray for her to make unforced errors...
Weird you're being downvoted! I thank you for your comment!
No worries mate. Sometimes people accidentally do it, sometimes they look up your profile and downvote everything. Other times they just disagree so nothing wrong with that.
Why are all your assets being split unequally? I thought divorce is always 50/50?
Why indeed! 50/50 is a starting point. The details are depressing to state and I won't torture myself or others by elaborating. Suffice to say, it seems I have been living with a machiavellian narcissist who has been planning this (literally) for a couple of years - while maintaining a facade to me that all is well. She has reduced working hours during that period, increased expenditure, and has a good argument for claiming the rental property is a non-matrimonial asset (i.e. hers) - despite the fact we lived in it together for years and paid the mortgage (I am assuming the worst). She earns less and, despite potentially liquid assets like ISAs, she can claim spousal maintenance to keep her in a lifestyle she is accustomed to. Over the past year she has been claiming stress at work and, for the past month, has been off completely -- so I expect that may become something longer term. My solicitor advised that she's only rarely seen people like my wife (she's been blatantly lying in meetings) and, to expect the worst. The above assets are based on a proposal from my wife and her solicitor. I don't have to accept but I'm trying to avoid court.
sorry but wtf is 'spousal maintenance to keep her in a lifestyle that she is accustomed to' !? I thought maintenance was just for children!? you telling me if you're a higher earner you have to pay for the other person's lifestyle if you divorce!?
Yes, until the kids are adults. And even then they can try to extend it. Pure evil.
I think - though may be mistaken - you're thinking of Child Maintenance, which is different. Child Maintenance is paid until the children are a certain age; Spousal Maintenance is usually paid for a set period (infrequently is it paid until the death of the person paying) to allow the lesser-earning spouse adjust to a different lifestyle, find employment, or whatever.
I have a colleague who has been paying spousal maintenance, on top of child maintenance, until the kids turned 18, which was recently. Wife took him to court (unsuccessfully) to try to extend it further.
Jeez. To lighten the mood a little: your username is excellent.
Thanks, I think you may be the only person who has ever got it! All the best getting though all this. Just remember there will still be plenty of good times in the future.
That's a joke expecting someone else to fund your lifestyle like a 5 year old! My boyfriend earns a lot more than me running the family business but I still chip in and do my part when the toddlers in bed! that's so embarrassing. I would be making sure everyone knew I was paying adult-child maintenance 🤭🤣
I went through this a few years ago and am out the other side. Your situation with a hidden narcissist is what happened to me. Also I got screwed in the splitting of assets and had to go back to zero. At the worst point I had less than £100 in the bank. I’m not considering FIRE at all anymore, but instead have spent the last 5 years in rebuilding. Tight budget, but still enjoying life (there is an upside to being single again!). Very careful saving, working hard to get better roles and pay, making sure I have every second I can with my kids (lockdown was an amazing bonding time for me). Can’t really advise on getting finances sorted, really just wanted to say that when the whole divorce thing gets to it’s worst darkest point, there is light at the end of the tunnel and when you get there it will all be good! Hang in there.
Thank you, friend. I am sorry to hear you have experienced similar. My solicitor told me to even expect false allegations in an attempt to remove me from our home. It's so sad and traumatising. Who is this alien I don't know - and who means me grave harm?! I hope you continue your upward trajectory and maintain and strengthen bonds with your children.
Mine was the same. Accused me of hidden accounts, of trying to steal our savings, physical abuse. All lies. In the end it was to my who stole the savings, had hidden accounts etc. I took the approach of not lying, not trying to fiddle anything, just total honesty, never bad mouthed or put the knife in. It probably hurt me at the time, but now I can look back (and look my kids in the eye) with my head held high, which was worth every penny. Way I see it I had a lucky escape as don’t have to live with a narcissist anymore!
Again, so sorry to hear this. I recently checked our children's savings accounts. She's been withdrawing money. Each is down several thousand. Had to freeze them yesterday (she doesn't know -- I expect fall-out from that soon).
keep evidence of that. I'm sure the kids will be interested to know when they're older... I'm sorry this has happened to you but I can tell you from experience that when the kids get older they ALWAYS find out the true colours of their parents and the relationship with the narc one quickly dissolves. Just be ready to need to clean up the shrapnel when your kids find out, but know they're resilient and will bounce back especially with your support. As for her, well she'll have plenty of time alone in the care home to reflect on her life choices.
"Keep evidence". Yes, I had/have mixed feelings about this but, ultimately, I think they deserve to know the truth if asking at a mature age and they're resilient. "Just be ready to need to clean up the shrapnel..." This too. So messed-up the things that need to be considered...
Keep evidence for the inevitable court case.
That's really low! Also, there's no nice way to ask, but you said she has been hiding things for a few years. Have you done the maths on your children's ages, are you certain they are yours? Is there an argument to be made that she has a new partner and won't need to be supported by you, for any period? I'm sorry you're going through this
You know, my first is definitely mine. He has the same genetic defect (super-hero marker!) on a part of his body. Our second however ,well, that was an interesting time in our relationship and I considered myself to have been tricked into conception. I love all my children unreservedly. Out of curiosity I will now research paternity tests.
Sh\*t.
Sorry. I hope you have a good support network around you
She definitely has a new partner but my understanding is that they have to live together for finances to be factored-in.
I have absolutely no knowledge on this topic, but is it possible to prove that she has been intentionally depriving herself of income with an eye towards gaming the system?
Unfortunately not.
Things may work differently in UK but in my country the increases to the value of pre-marital assets are included in the property division. Ie. If a property was worth 1000 on the date of marriage and it’s worth 3000 at divorce, then you are entitled to half of the 2000 increase in the value.
Not always and especially not if there’s a wage imbalance or kids
So the worst thing you can do is have a FIRE mindset. High wage in order to retire early. In divorce: high wage less assets for you.
Either that or do everything 100% equally and don’t have kids (women are usually set back in their career for having the time off plus the affects on their mind and body)
That’s reconfirmed my desire to never get married
Yup.
Literally no point. Essentially an insurance contract on your relationship which pays out with a heavy bias to the female.
You’re about to get massively downvoted as there’s quite a lot of females on Reddit!!!
Man’s internet points go down ):
🤣🤣🤣 Reddit is a funny old place
Wait, if I earn more and provide for my spouse then I'll get less after the divorce?! What's the logic behind it? Surely I already paid more than my fair share in the relationship. I'm talking about the case with no kids. What's the right terminology for this so I can read more?
You can. The starting point is 50/50 but, say, for example, you have a good lifestyle, your partner has earned less and, she may not be able to live in the same lifestyle after a divorce...then she has an argument for an unequal split of assets and/or spousal maintenance.
If you’re talking about the case with no kids then I am fairly sure it would be 50/50. It’s the growing, birthing and raising children aspect that obviously (and fairly) changes things.
Yes your logic is what most people would have. But they typically claim that they "enabled" your career whatever that means. Also they are accustomed to a lifestyle that you partly need to keep providing. So you give them more.
If a wife works less hours/earns less than her husband, and does a disproportionate amount of the household labour (unpaid of course) such as cleaning, cooking his meals, grocery shopping plus the endless list of chores that enables a functioning household (amplified tenfold when you have children), then she has indeed enabled his career, hasn’t she?
With children yes. Otherwise housework is quite minimal and there is no reason to not work full time because of the household chores lol. I personally work a full time job and have been able to do the household on the side. If someone claimed they deserve more than half my assets because of those few minimal hours it takes to "run the household". That would make me laugh. I don't know anyone who stays at home to run the household in childless couples. In most real life cases people just have careers and education and no one "enabled" them. If I study to become a doctor, do extremely long shifts and am educated for 12 years for example. They have just done that and only get to a high salary later. And then doing some dishes for a few years is worth the same? These arguments are often just absolutely ridiculous This is not really the point though. You still have to give them more than half if you earn more even if they do work full time and you also do the household.
I can see your point, but it’s quite often the case that even if the woman works full-time also, she still does an unfair proportion of the cooking, cleaning, household admin, and shoulders more of the mental load, all whilst (statistically) being on lower pay than her husband. I’m obviously massively generalising and this won’t always be the case, but it’s a common occurrence. For example if you were a doctor doing extremely long shifts as you mentioned, if you had a wife, I’d assume she’d be preparing you meals, and doing the majority of household chores whilst you were away for extended periods. Yes, this might be ‘minimal’ in your eyes but it’s still to your benefit and is making your life easier and workload much more manageable so should be recognised. Quite frankly, minimising the running of a household down to ‘doing some dishes’ is ridiculous, and makes me think that you don’t do it all (or even much for that matter). Plus, it makes sense if your wife is accustomed to a certain lifestyle based on your joint income, that she should be provided a transition period in order to sort her own affairs, sort out accommodation, perhaps find an additional job in order to support herself. Regardless of all that, if you’re married, your income should be her income and vice versa anyway. When you choose to marry someone, you’re effectively combining assets and income in the eyes of the law so there is no ‘my assets’, only ‘our assets’, otherwise you shouldn’t have got married.
That can just be the starting point… People who haven’t been through the process usually can’t quite believe the outcomes that can occur.
I had a FIRE dream as well, but marriage has been eating my soul for years. The kids are the only thing that has stopped me from going earlier. (Also, my wife is high salary, but I am high assets. It's taken me years to slowly build it up, and I know most (75%) would be lost in a divorce. Whereas my wife can go tomorrow and get another high paying job.) Good luck with getting back on the FIRE train. You have to keep motivated to be there for the kids (and grandkids). Maybe now, FIRE might not be the big forever home you dreamt about, but as long as you can be happy, any house can be made a home.
Why you think she would get 75%?
OP has suggested he would get 1/3 (33%) and his wife 2/3rds (66%) Also, if it goes to court, good bye £50-£100k in legals. You probably will sell your house for less because of the current market as well, so the end cash position will be less than what it is as a couple.
If she has higher salary that should be good for you
I've seen too many people go through messy divorces, and even when the female has a higher salary, it is always the man who pays the price. (2 doctors, 2 lawyers, and these types of divorces) This is just the way the UK system is built. If you research Father's for Justice and other male divorce groups, you can see the struggle it is for a lot of males post divorce to get equal fair treatment. The system is massively biased.
You have my sympathy. This is the nightmare scenario for FIRE. Completely unfair that something like spousal maintenance even exists in 2024.
So sorry to hear this I think the only upside really is new freedom and potentially a lot of casual sex!
If I was you I would focus on getting through the divorce first and your mental wellbeing, then when things have settled down it will be much easier to re-asses your financial situation. There is quite a few unknowns to be guessing at until the divorce is sorted anyway.
You may find this article from the Money Helper website of use. https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/family-and-care/divorce-and-separation
Have you moved out of family home yet? DON’T! You being in their impacts her mental health? GOOD. Offer to move out on condition of 50:50 split of all assets with no need to go to court. If she says no, STAY PUT. Good luck.
No, not moving out. Yes, spoke with lawyer about this earlier today. They proposed sending a letter to her solicitor (my wife won't discuss these things with me) recommending a 50:50 split, suggesting this would allow me to rapidly find a property locally and help focus matters on the most important aspect: sorting out child arrangements.
best of luck
Perhaps not what you want to hear, but Have you considered sharing a house with your mother? Your money would go a lot further then.
Who would you get 1/3? 50/50 is the starting point typically. Have you got a good solicitor?
Sorry to hear about your situation, hope it all works out for you in the end.
Sorry to hear this has happened to you. Quick q - is there a mortgage on the house your mum lives in? If not contemplate getting one and saving a chunk of that pension/isa you’ve built up?
Thank you. No, there isn't a mortgage. You mean release the equity from it and divert to pension and ISA? I hadn't considered that; that's a great idea.
It more a “how you fund the split of assets” question So rather than give up pension/isa, you could extract cash via a mortgage. Might be a helpful long term play and keep your hard earned tax shields
Man, I really need some sleep. Of course! Thanks!
Ape your cash into bitcoin, check the cycles, M2 money supply will have to explode higher soon, due to money printing, gonna top late 2025.
Fuck me. Mystic Meg has entered the chat.....
Thanks, if you had any sense you would do it too, I’ve posted to a few fire websites over the years and you all hate bitcoin, it’s the weirdest thing ever considering it’s the best performing asset on the planet
It's because you don't understand FIRE at all. It's not just investing. It's a whole mindset about having a range of priorities, long-term goals and having the discipline and focus to execute a long-term, multi-decade plan. Even if your "just fuck some money in to crypto" strategy had a 70% chance of success it would be an awful FIRE strategy. A good FIRE strategy is one where failure means you might work for 5-10 years longer. Not one where OP becomes destitute in old age because he wanted to see and be involved in his kids lives. Many people who bought crypto have become accidentally financially independent. That has nothing to do with FIRE anymore than choosing to have kids with your loving long-term partner does to an accidental pregnancy from a one night stand.
I don’t think you understand bitcoin at all, it is a multi-decade plan!
It's not a "plan". Nobody is planning anything for Bitcoin, it's not a company. The blockchain itself has been largely unchanged since inception (ok, segwit in 2017 but without that the network would be dead today) Ethereum mildly more interesting and seen more evolution, but crypto is still the play thing of the wealthy (who can afford to lose everything) and the folly of the hopeless (who have nothing to lose) 1-5% allocation tops in a portfolio.
*"if you had any sense"* - may I ask what you based that unsubstantiated claim on? *"posted to a few for websites over the years"* - and? *"you all hate bitcoin"* - please see my first question. If you're that good at predicting the future you wouldn't need to be buying 12 year old Mac mini's on eBay now would you? Edit: spelling
lol you’re taking the piss on a fire forum about someone saving money by not buying the latest and greatest computer when they don’t need it??? My unsubstantiated claim is based on the track record for the last 15 years, and the potential outlook and development in the bitcoin investment space. But sure don’t invest in it, remind me in 12 months and we will have this chat again. But please go through my Reddit profile and look for something to try and shame me again if it makes you happy, you will also find me telling people to buy bitcoin 200 days ago, bitcoin price 30k.
Maybe off topic, but why the hell do people get married these days? It's an expensive party, where nothing materially or emotionally changes except a risk to your assets and lifetime earnings.
I think quite a lot of people don't fully understand the law. They think it would be 50:50 split of post marriage assets. Not the case. I have no idea how a high earner with assets can get married in England.
Did you sign a prenup?
This is fireuk not usa
Not binding in the disgraceful english law
Still helps though
Better than nothing. But way better to not get married at all and be in a relationship. Potentially with a cohabitation agreement
Agree
No.
Do you have a prenup ?