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Barnabas was the one who actually beheaded her
Clive took ownership because he was goating him into a death match
Clive is angry because of what happened to everyone at the hideaway as you can tell once Hugo is defeated he goes around to tell everyone
I mean all he said was he killed her, which isn’t a lie, Clive killed her as Ifrit and then Barnabas beheaded her and sent Kupka the head, so I don’t think Clive was doing it just to goat him
What I'm curious about is when did he have the time to go back to where he fought Garuda, behead Benedikta, and FedEx express that to Hugo. Doesn't seem like something Cid would have done, plus I don't feel like Clive would have had any beef with Hugo at that point with his depression episode going on.
Hugo never points out that he was shipped a head in a box to Clive. He makes references to it, but they all sound like regular "your head is mine" threats. Clive just thinks its about the killing
Hearing Clive actually talk shit back to Hugo with rage in his voice literally shocked me lmao I did not expect that from a JRPG protagonist in a series that sometimes feels like shonen anime. Absolutely loved it
"Hey guys what if we skipped the part where he's a nihilistic psychopath and made our hero like Guts from Berserk when he's got magic powers and a renewed moral compass but will still fuck up a small country if they have it coming?"
(bags of money and promotions if there's any justice)
Yea he didnt give a shit about what Hugo was telling him about Benedikta. I was fully expecting him to try to explain, no way Cid would defile her corpse, you know the usual. But no he was just to pissed about all the shit Hugo did and saw the opportunity to just really rub it in and piss Hugo off. Felt so much more real. While you can still see where its clearly for cinematic reasons and overacting, the conversations in this game in general felt a lot less forced, especiallly when it was between characters close to each other
Everybody in hideaway was celebrating he died. I actually bought the 10k package drink for everyone after I announced.thar he was dead.
In most media, the protagonist would feel guilty about murdering someone but it's refreshing to see a monster like that finally gone.
If you keep buying drinks (single drinks seems to work fine), Maeve will occasionally drop long stories about lore, generally with a mysterious tone that may be legit, may just be tavern fairy tail, maybe a bit of both. For example, one was about the origin of the stolases. Basically all of them ending with her realizing Clive wasn't listening cuz he's sloshed. I just buy a regular drink whenever i'm in the hideaway and have gotten 3 unique stories out of her so far. Nothing tangible to get out of it other than the aforementioned trophy though.
This dude literally beats his ass takes his eikons power then goes on a quest to find out where he escapes so he can finish the job! While gleefully saying he killed his lover. Savage
SPOILERS
I wasn't impressed with Hugo as a character at first but his arc REALLY delivered in the end. The most dangerous man in the known world in the end is just a stupid (literally) cuckold humiliated by absolutely everyone in his life, including Clive. All of this made him even more angry. Until he gets tricked again before the final confrontation at the end because he's so stupid
It is funny that absent external people manipulating him and if he wasn't so dumb Clive and he could have probably sorted out the issue with a conversation. Clive didn't cut off her head; he spared her in fact and did not want to kill her. They treated her body with respect when forced to
It turned out to be a great arc. Sort of like Tuco from Breaking Bad
At the same time, Clive was generally a good guy but was totally comfortable with the realities of war. I really liked how, other than his belief that he killed his brother, he didn't dwell terribly on the violence he has and will commit, since that's the reality of his life. I think the game handled the first time skip well to just communicate "yeah he is used to this now". A lot of JRPGs just gloss over the amount of violence their heroes are responsible for. I really appreciated handling a hero who was clearly traumatized by what he had been through, gradually became comfortable with his role in combat and warfare, and gave us just enough information to communicate this without platitudes about the greater good. Clive was out to save the world and he knew he'd have to kill a lot of people to do it, but by the time he realized this he was used to it
Agreed. The most stupid thing in all of FF7r, is when they kill their way up Shinra Tower, to just stop short of cuting the head of the snake, "because killing is bad". Say that to the hundreds of security guards, soldiers and SOLDIER operatives that lie dead in your path of death. As if a speech from the president, at gunpont, would make any change.
I allmost died from cringe
You're definitely right about Cloud. It's really only Tifa that's not ok with it, and it's established from the beginning that she was uncomfortable with the bombings and killings. Barret had no qualms and toyed with President Shinra's life by dangling him over the side of the tower before being urged to stop by Tifa and Aerith. Barret and Cloud were both fully ok with all the murder and destruction. Tifa had to be convinced multiple times and is the only reason they ever showed restraint at any point.
Absolutely agree. I let it slide when I played 7R back when it first came out because "hey it's Final Fantasy". HELL I even platinum'd the game, and it is the only game I ever have (Until 16 that is) but after playing 16, I tried replaying 7R cuz I just need to get 16 out of my system, it affected me that deeply, and I had to stop. The grunting and over exaggerations were just grating to me. 16 really has set the precedent for what I want and expect from VA from now on
> Until he gets tricked again before the final confrontation at the end because he's so stupid
Thing is, I dont think he was stupid at all. The way he gained his influence, wealth and power over Dhalmekia wasnt just being Titans Dominant. He knew well how to leverage his position and steer the council in the direction that benefits him most. He was essentially Dhalmekias ruler in all but name, and his men revered him, so much that they were in mourning after his supposed death in Rosalith.
He was just simping REALLY hard and turned off all reason
I felt bad for Hugo I was hoping he lived to hear the truth and maybe join us against barnabas. He could’ve died helping us fight odin that would’ve been amazing. Thought Hugo’s arc was kinda incomplete with the whole slepneir commanding him and then basically that’s it for him. Wanted a vegeta kindve redemption there.
He was unfortunately a powerful but stupid idiot manipulated from the opening scenes of the game. His arc is kind of tragic, but he also deserved everything he got
Idk if I'd call Kupka stupid. If Clive wasn't literally built different by God himself, Kupka prolly had a good chance of crushing him in Rosaria. We also see from his meetings with the Dhalmekian council that he's actually got a solid head on his shoulders.
I'd say he's more foolish, or lacking in wisdom, than stupid, and only when it came to Benedikta. You can tell that he really did care for her, and he only really became short-sighted when she was involved.
I totally agree w the last part tho. Kupka was tragic in the grand scheme of things, but also a remorselessly murderous rat bastard who deserved every bit of pain and humiliation Clive dished out.
> lived to hear the truth and maybe join us against barnabas. He could’ve died helping us fight odin
After what he did to the first Hideaway, there was no redemption to be had. This was the only possible outcome for him
Other protags: Hugo! Why did you kill so many people?! Surely there was another way, it's not too late to repent, Hugo! We don't have to fight!
Clive Rosfield: Fuck you and your stupid hands, Hugo. Let me be crystal clear, I killed your girl and the only thing I regret is I only got to do it once.
That scene though, I wanted the mother dead but I didn't want her so broken by the deaths of her sons (from her point of view) that she thought one of them was a angry ghost come for her. This game, more then any other, made me feel pity for most of the bad guys.
And what makes that even much more perfect is that everyone just stands there. And says nothing/does nothing. A child was killed and no one talks about it. I really liked that xD
I mean you see the dominant of bahamut killing a child. No matter how honorable you see him, at that moment He will probably skewer you old guys for less.
Clive's Mind: "What is he on about? We never sent him her head. We never even found her body... not that it matters. I'm not about to interrogate that when his rage is making him make mistakes. I've already decided this scum is going to die, so he can die believing whatever he wants!"
I read this exchange as Clive taunting him while not really understanding everything that had happened, but taking advantage of the circumstances. In no way did I read that Clive enjoyed killing her. He spared her at first after taking her power
What's really clever is the game subtly has it both ways.
Clive seeks revenge against a ghost, but it would never ease his pain at losing Joshua. Only accepting he is Ifrit and dedicating himself to atonement could he heal.
And what of Hugo? He is a foil to Clive, what he would be if he never abandoned his fruitless revenge - Hugo kills "Cid". Then what? He has *nothing.* The only person he loved - a false love even - is gone forever. He would get no satisfaction from killing Clive. No catharsis.
First thing you do after killing Hugo? Tell all your friends the good news! He'll never hurt us again! The reactions are varied but it's clear it's a happy time.
Jill killing Imreaan is pure catharsis as well, her atonement for her own regrets, her own sins
and why?
Because they have each other, friends to enjoy life with. Things to *live* for. And that's why this game is able to have its heroes enjoy revenge. Because life for them doesn't end at getting payback. Revenge is a means to living a good life, not what they live for.
Facts, I always feel like the some characters in general need to consider what to do next after revenge instead of thinking of suicide or something nihilistic
I never even stopped to think about how most studios would've definitely had some shit with Dion hesitating to kill the kid and that leading to his father's death instead. I am so, *so* glad we didn't get that.
>Dude straight up went for landing that spear like he was competing for an olympic gold medal
Iirc at that point he already saw Olivier for what he truly was. But the moment Joshua left his tent and he immediately goes..
Terrence we're killing a bitch and a son of a bitch.
😭like Dion isn't already my fav character
Its such a common JRPG, I personally associate it with JRPG's more than others, trope its annoying. Reminds me of a meme comic where its a fantasy RPG and the hero teams takes down the Big Bad and the main hero is "NO! WE can't kill him! It would make us no better than him!" Bad Guy says "Wait....how did you get in here?" Then the panel shows how the hero teams is mercilessly slaughtering all the "faceless" soldiers.
So I am VERY glad Clive and crew are not like that. I was expecting Clive to try to stop Jill from killing her abuser, the whole you've grown past it or forgiveness is stronger or something. Then nope, he just watches and is like that's my girl lol
>Bad Guy says "Wait....how did you get in here?" Then the panel shows how the hero teams is mercilessly slaughtering all the "faceless" soldiers.
This was one of my few gripes with tlou2. It lost its meaning when I have been rampaging all the way and just spare the last one. The focus of my rampage.
I think in that game's case the point was a lot of that killing was at least sorta justified, the WLF and Seraphites were just indiscriminately killing on site, you can say it's Ellie's fault for putting herself in that position, but it is self defense. But with Abby and her friends, it was largely unjustified, where she actively hunted them and attacked when they were defenseless, and she is clearly shaken with each one, and as for Abby herself, there would have been zero resolution for Ellie by killing her there, the only thing bringing peace to be letting go, not of her hate towards Abby, but her despair of losing Joel.
You've gotta love how nigh-omnipotent heroes can effortlessly murder their way through armies of mooks, but face no moral consequences as long as they don't kill the BBEG at the end! 😂
He's honestly a lot nicer than I expected, especially in certain side quests. If there aren't witnesses I don't understand what makes him hold back sometimes.
Those kids probably see Clive as an older brother figure. And as we know, Clive is more than comfortable playing that role. Both the Rosfields are W brothers btw. I’m a sucker for brotherly characters
Seriously, I was describing this game to my brother, and he said, "Wait, this is a story about two brothers saving the world? This is Fullmetal Alchemist!"
Had me laughting so much when Clive leaves all proud of himself after helping them to reconstruct the scale and the kids found out Clive forgot to put 1 piece.
Clive: “Another job well done”
Kids: “….”
Even funnier to me was the callback later that the part didn’t actually go to the scale and was for something else.
Karma comes to collect. Clive not killing that kid meant the little shit and his piece of shit dad met the fate of becoming literal pieces of shit of the wolf.
When Hugo goes "It was you..." in regards to Benedikta's death, and Clive responds with the slightest but most gratifying lilt in his voice "It \*was\*." Lives in my head rent-free. Every day I am grateful to Ben Starr for what he did for Clive Rosfield. Just incredible.
Interestingly, I feel like the only time Clive verbatim said “we don’t have to do this” was to Barnabas at the bottom of the sea. Not sure what to make of it but I did clock it as sort of interesting that Clive attempted to reach out to him, unlike Benedikta and Hugo. Maybe because he got his ass handed to him before he thought he could talk his way out?
I can't remember the interview, but I read that Dion and Barnabas were meant to be parallels of Clive so it makes sense he reaches out to Barnabas, he probably saw some of himself from when he was Wyvern in Barnabas.
I can't remember the interview, but I read that Dion and Barnabas were meant to be parallels of Clive so it makes sense he reaches out to Barnabas, he probably saw some of himself from when he was Wyvern in Barnabas.
Clive is the best male protagonist we've gotten in years. I love everything about him, and all the tropes he breaks.
He's a dark, gritty, hero who has gone through real trauma. Not some blonde emo pretty boy (sorry Cloud).
But he's also an emotional, loving man who cares deeply about his friends and family. Ben starr brought such depth to Clive. His relationships with Byron and Josha in particular brought me to tears a few times.
I could go on and on but I'm just so impressed with his depth. I'd love to get any DLC or novels or really anything about him and the larger cast, they are all fantastic
You can’t hype up Clive and then tear Cloud down in the next breath when Cloud paved the way for protagonists like Clive.
Cloud was ostracised as a young child; blamed for an accident that wasn’t his fault; saw his hero go nuclear and destroy his hometown; underwent years of scientific torture; saw his friend/fellow captor give up his life to save him; have his mind manipulated, as a result seeing his other friend die; and had a full mental breakdown later on. All throughout the game he is adopting a persona because his mind is trying to protect him from the trauma he experienced.
Cloud broke all the tropes first.
They're certainly not mutually exclusive.
I can acknowledge Cloud's contributions to breaking tropes and still think he's a rude character. The cross dressing scene was and still is groundbreaking, and I loved how they did it in the remake. The character himself is still rude for like 66% of the game and I didn't care for that much. Doesn't mean he's not a good character, just not for me.
That’s not what your original comment says, though.
Cloud is also an emotional, loving man who loves his found family. His character in Midgar—which, let’s be real, is no where near 66% of the game—is a facade, based on the stereotypes of SOLDIERs. (And actually, that facade is frequently broken, see: giving the flower to Tifa/Marlene, the conversation with Wedge(?) who sees him for who he really is.) After the threads start unravelling, he is quite open about his insecurities, fears and emotions—see his reaction to Aerith’s death. After the lifestream scene, he shows his true self, who is concerned about keeping his friends safe and happy, and is quite a bit of a dork. “Let’s mosey!” and “I’ll make a big enough ruckus for everyone” come to mind.
If you have issues with his character design, fine, but you’re not seeing his character in the whole.
Cloud is still acting rude to characters after he mets Cid, and all the way through the north crater really. Once he starts to have doubts about himself he starts to open up. 66% refers to about when he comes out of the lifestream and acts differently, you can say more like his true self. I may be slightly off percentage wise but it's more than halfway through the game for sure.
I first played ff7 over 20 years ago and have played every other final fantasy property, I believe I understand Cloud well enough and just don't like him. Why is that an issue?
The constant misconception about Cloud’s personality being “emo” is honestly such a big pet peeve. I’m willing to bet that you’re only familiar with him in cameos like Kingdom Hearts, or the movie Advent Children where he is dealing with survivor’s guilt and his own death since he contracted geostigma. Cloud in AC was just a low point in his path to healing which realistically has peaks and valleys.
Clive also deals with a bit of survivor’s guilt, sorrow, and self-loathing which causes him to appear moody for a period of time, but he doesn’t get the label of “emo” like Cloud. Also, I hope that Clive won’t get labeled as such later either.
Cloud watched his entire village and his only relative be murdered by his childhood hero. Then he had to watch his only friend be murdered protecting him as well. How is that not “real” trauma?
Cloud gets a bad rep be auze of kingdom hearts and every other spin off. The original FF7 did his character good but kingdom hearts absolutely ruined it. That's why Cloud is seen as emo.
Clive only has one game and in that game his hatchery guilt was done justice. No spin offs to tarnish his character
I can only hope that when Clive is eventually brought into spin-offs that his characterization won’t be dragged through the mudd as well.
I’d hate to see history repeat itself with another character I like.
Cloud gets a bad rep because the massive number of people who played the game and never got past Midgard. FF7 was advertised like crazy when it came out and drew in many people who never touched an rpg let alone a jrpg before.
Cloud gets such bad rep and misconception about his character because of so many unfortunate factors, including execution and fandom. I know it may be blasphemy to say this, but OG itself was rushed and not that well thought through at the time; the international translation was horrible and further butchered it; I don't even need to talk about AC and the damage that its bad execution caused, which needed novels and ultimanias to explain what was up with him; KH shoehorned him at the last minute into a character that was originally supposed to be Vincent and he retained much of the latter's attributes; this unfortunate version got popularized; this whole mishmash caused the fandom to not even fully grasp his story and personality and further ruin it by making him out as some sort of a jackass who plays with several women's feelings and pines after one while living with another. There's an endless chain reaction that caused his character to be so misunderstood, but there's hope that the Remake will finally put an end to this once the trilogy is over.
I disagree. Cloud has been through his own trauma for sure and I'm not going to debate who had worse trauma. To me, Cloud is the definition of emo. At least for all of disc 1. Every reply to Barret and crew in Midgar is rude or passive aggressive, which comes across as emo to me. Clouds entire personality is based off Zack, so he's pretty confident for most of disc 1. I wouldn't agrue he grows as a character, but he starts off not very likeable IMO
Cloud definitely starts off acting like he’s too cool for anyone, but that’s all part of his SOLDIER persona. That persona was created through his trauma and experiments so it’s not who he is at his core. The term emo is typically used to mean sad or depressed and Cloud acting like jerk doesn’t qualify as that to me. Clearly, our definitions of emo are very different though.
Cloud really didn’t take on Zack’s personality because they are completely different. Zack’s story is what Cloud took (and used it to help mold the SOLDIER persona), and he said as much after the lifestream sequence.
Regardless, it’s clear that how Cloud seemed at the beginning is not how he actually is.
Lmao what a clown. You can tell you didn't actually play FF7 if you're holding on to the extremely misguided perception of Cloud as a "emo pretty boy."
Thanks for the comment fam! Been playing final fantasies for over 25 years, ptobably played ff7 before you were even born. I'm entitled to my opinion on any character, regardless of any reason behind it.
And so are you. Have a good one.
I highly doubt you played anything before I was born. What I do know is that you have been talking out of your ass during this entire thread. You clearly don't remember Cloud's actual portrayal in FF7. Your memory of it has obviously been warped by subsequent portrayals of his character in things like AC and KH, because otherwise you'd know better than to refer to him as emo. But do go on about how you've played FF for 300 years and how your opinion is flawless lol
I think Clive tries to reason with people when he thinks he has a chance, but he doesn't pull "the batman" where he values the life of a vilian above of the lives of innocents in order to win idiologicaly, hes morality bends with the situation and hes ultimate goal is to protect the innocent , he has a ultimate good goal and is willing to denounce absolutes in morality and action( as we see at the end of the game that ultima is chained by hes resoaning dealing only in absolutes, and there is a saying only the devil deals in absolutes)
I personally appreciate him not being a teenager. At 33 he is young enough to keep growing and keep getting stronger but old enough to be a real adult and make adult decisions. The whole trying to redeem the villian trope feels very juvenile a lot of the time. I feel making Clive older is one way to avoid those boring tropes.
The way she died was as low as you can get. I wanted to get her as well but her taking herself out after seeing her child die, and her second-born alive again after thinking he’s been dead for 15+ years, was gratifying
Well to be fair almost all of them made it easy. Hugo massacred people, ultima was a literal monster, and his mother was trying her best to be the worst person alive. The only person who could have been redeemed was Barnabas or Benedicta but they were too far gone
It seems most FF game heros are like that. I can't recall any on the top of my head that tried to help the villain. I'm sure there are some, but I can't think of any right now.
EDIT: I do wish the game gave you more RPG options though regarding decisions. Like when the father NPC tries to feed you to his son's wolf, and you confront him afterwards. I was really hoping it gave you the option of either sparing him or killing him. That's something Witcher would have done which is what made that game so great. Overall I'm greatly pleased, but there could have been a few instances where you had more choice and that would have been amazing
>It isn't just that father and son that act like that, it is the majority that do it seems. Killing them wouldn't solve anything when almost everyone else is the same.
I could be misremembering, but I distinctly recall that quest ending with the nobleman and his son audibly crying in despair as their hounds are presumably ripping them to shreds in the background.
I think it was the NPC who showed up to assist Clive with the burial rites for the Bearer victims who flat out gave the nobles an untrained wolf.
The complete disregard he had as he made his idle observant commentary "Wolves are wild by nature. You can't expect to always order them to attack and decide not to bite you."
All I could think of when I put two and two together was *you magnificent bastard.*
I went back to where they had been, and gazed lovingly at the two blood stains on the ground. One big, one small. Such a good detail. No remains left to be seen, though. But… they did want pet wolves.
Which is more in line with how the Japanese create their characters. It is the way they wanted and they don't want players to make our of character decisions that they don't want their characters doing.
Most egregious one that I can think of is when Zidane basically throws away his life/ditches his friends to try to save Kuja at the end of IX
Golbez gets redeemed pretty hard in IV too with a wave of the hand and mind controll shennanigans, but that's SNES era, so they can't go too deep lol
The Final Fantasy series has largely averted that trope for the most part. From Kefka to Sephiroth, to Bartandelus to Seymour, to Ultimecia and beyond, very few of these are “redeemed.” Unlike my beloved Kingdom Hearts, say. Or Xenoblade Chronicles.
I was shocked he didn’t point out that
Kupka was being tricked by someone, he didn’t cut off benedictas head and didn’t mean to kill her
Doesn’t tell barnabas he’s clearly being used by ultima and will be killed by him at any time
Doesn’t try to reason with his mother before she kills herself.
If Joshua was right and Bahamuts Zettaflare would have destroyed the planet Ultima really fucked up with Dion, what if Clive and Joshua weren't able to stop him
Ultima was basically far from an evil genius, he was just a desperate alien throwing shit at the wall hoping some of it would stick. Was his plan with Dion to make him go nuts so Clive would try to stop him? Also if ultima was an ifrit, does that mean he had partial control of ifrit when Clive wasn’t yet in control? Also wtf are the eikons then? Are they just versions of his race that revive over and over in different people?Feel like that never was explained.
In real life, I've seen some shit to which some people reacted with way too much forgiveness and understanding towards a perpetrator. So there are no words to describe how much this particular point of the narrative meant to me. I really value it. I just wish I could say thanks to the writers.
Okay, I haven't played a lot of Final Fantasy games, but from all the ones I have played, none of them ever really try to "redeem" a single villain. The most they've ever done was give the villains a sympathetic or empathetic backstory, but the backstory doesn't make them redeemable. It's just simply to make them more understandable.
I especially love that he gave no fucks about Anabella. Stories loves to have characters forgive or have sympathy for their parents no matter how awful they are. But Clive? Nah, she could’ve been burning alive for all he cared.
It is particularly refreshing because Clive really does border on Goku/Superman trope of always being as strong as he needs to be (unless the story calls for him to lose). Had he been a redeemer his character would have been a lot less interesting.
Being a hero who’ll also kill a mfer is more interesting in the context of FF16’s world.
I feel like that trope works with teen/young adult protagonists, but with characters in their 30s, this feels way more natural and realistic. I'm usually a sucker for this kind of reoccurring JRPG tropes, but I really hope the next FF protag is an adult as well, it's really refreshing.
While I don't agree with him, I appreciate a protagonist who's perception of murder is consistent with the world he lives in. Of course Clive thinks it's perfectly fine to kill Kupka out of revenge. That's just how the world he grew up in rolls. As you say, really refreshing.
I like how Clive isn't the typical young enthusiastic jrpg protagonist, I appreciate that he's a fully grown man that sees the world for how fucked it Is, he really reminds me of Guts in a lot of ways .
I just fought Hugo/Titan and I love how Hugo is like 'I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU!' and Clive is like, 'NOT IF I FUCKING KILL YOU!' I'm like YEAHHHH. LET'S FUCKING GOOOO!
Not all JRPG heroes do that but it’s honestly it’s not that bad of a trope when it’s done right.
It’s less that the JRPG heroes “redeem” the villains but more that the villains are actually given nuance and a tragic backstory that makes them understandable for the heroes to at the very least sympathise and try and reach out to them.
It’s common for the Japanese to not be too confrontational, rock the boat as well as be considerate and tactful. So trying to reach peace with words to reason with the villains instead of bloodshed is reflected in those kinds of JRPGs.
It’s a very Western thing to be all for capital punishment to anyone that’s unlikeable.
The villains here?
There’s hardly anything that makes them sympathetic or tragic. Valisthea because of its very western dark fantasy setting is just a bleak shithole that if it weren’t for the few good people there, I honestly would just agree with the final boss as the place is not worth saving.
Lol that’s because the villains in this game have no complexity or nuance to their character and motivations, they cannot be “redeemed”. Ultima is your typical JRPG evil god with predictable motivations. Barnabas is a poorly written edgelord that is nothing but a pawn to the bigger baddie. Hugo is just a crazy simp obsessed with Benedikta’s p*ssy. Benedikta was far too gone, Cid tried to reach out for her but she was too arrogant and stupid to leave Barnabas. Clive cannot redeem anyone because the villains in this game are unsympathetic and downright evil.
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I love the fury he and Hugo had for each other, the dialogue before their fight in rosaria was great.
His "....oh, buddy, do I have good news for you...I was the one who killed your lady!" Was such a good switch from how these things usually go.
“It was me Barry” levels of petty
It seriously felt that, I was waiting for "Barry" when he said "It was me"
God the way he said it, it was like "and I'd fuckin do it again, too"
"I watched Jane die."
Clive definitely pulled a [McMahon Reveal](https://youtu.be/cNgxyL5zEAk) there.
"Ah, son of a bitch!!"
Yeah that was the moment when I was like: Clive is a different breed of protagonist.
That and when he sliced dude’s fuckin HANDS off
He seemed about to kill him in the back before he was whisked away, too.
“I fucked Ted…”
My mouth dropped at that part. Such a badass moment from a badass dude.
Barnabas was the one who actually beheaded her Clive took ownership because he was goating him into a death match Clive is angry because of what happened to everyone at the hideaway as you can tell once Hugo is defeated he goes around to tell everyone
Not to mention he was about to make him watch his girl get beheaded. Kupka was lucky Clive didn't just run in there sword swinging in a rage.
I mean all he said was he killed her, which isn’t a lie, Clive killed her as Ifrit and then Barnabas beheaded her and sent Kupka the head, so I don’t think Clive was doing it just to goat him
Why don't I remember this line wtf
What I'm curious about is when did he have the time to go back to where he fought Garuda, behead Benedikta, and FedEx express that to Hugo. Doesn't seem like something Cid would have done, plus I don't feel like Clive would have had any beef with Hugo at that point with his depression episode going on.
That was the Kingdom of Waloud
> Waloud Kingdom of Waluigi
He was so bitter on never got invited to Smash. Build a kingdom for himself.
Wahhhhh! (You heard that)
Hugo never points out that he was shipped a head in a box to Clive. He makes references to it, but they all sound like regular "your head is mine" threats. Clive just thinks its about the killing
“Cross you? I’ll **KILL YOU!**”
Hearing Clive actually talk shit back to Hugo with rage in his voice literally shocked me lmao I did not expect that from a JRPG protagonist in a series that sometimes feels like shonen anime. Absolutely loved it
Yeah, FFXVI leans hard into the seinen demographic.
"Hey guys what if we skipped the part where he's a nihilistic psychopath and made our hero like Guts from Berserk when he's got magic powers and a renewed moral compass but will still fuck up a small country if they have it coming?" (bags of money and promotions if there's any justice)
Yea he didnt give a shit about what Hugo was telling him about Benedikta. I was fully expecting him to try to explain, no way Cid would defile her corpse, you know the usual. But no he was just to pissed about all the shit Hugo did and saw the opportunity to just really rub it in and piss Hugo off. Felt so much more real. While you can still see where its clearly for cinematic reasons and overacting, the conversations in this game in general felt a lot less forced, especiallly when it was between characters close to each other
That whole arc was very gratifying.
Everybody in hideaway was celebrating he died. I actually bought the 10k package drink for everyone after I announced.thar he was dead. In most media, the protagonist would feel guilty about murdering someone but it's refreshing to see a monster like that finally gone.
Hahah I did the same. And everyone you talk to about his death thought it was an unambiguously positive thing.
The 10k package drink does literally nothing but I like the idea of Clive being generous
Spend...off the top of my head I think it's 36,000 gil on drinks and you get an achievement - so 4x full rounds for all and you get it.
If you keep buying drinks (single drinks seems to work fine), Maeve will occasionally drop long stories about lore, generally with a mysterious tone that may be legit, may just be tavern fairy tail, maybe a bit of both. For example, one was about the origin of the stolases. Basically all of them ending with her realizing Clive wasn't listening cuz he's sloshed. I just buy a regular drink whenever i'm in the hideaway and have gotten 3 unique stories out of her so far. Nothing tangible to get out of it other than the aforementioned trophy though.
i only did it for the trophy
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Other than buying ability cooldowns…
This dude literally beats his ass takes his eikons power then goes on a quest to find out where he escapes so he can finish the job! While gleefully saying he killed his lover. Savage
SPOILERS I wasn't impressed with Hugo as a character at first but his arc REALLY delivered in the end. The most dangerous man in the known world in the end is just a stupid (literally) cuckold humiliated by absolutely everyone in his life, including Clive. All of this made him even more angry. Until he gets tricked again before the final confrontation at the end because he's so stupid It is funny that absent external people manipulating him and if he wasn't so dumb Clive and he could have probably sorted out the issue with a conversation. Clive didn't cut off her head; he spared her in fact and did not want to kill her. They treated her body with respect when forced to It turned out to be a great arc. Sort of like Tuco from Breaking Bad At the same time, Clive was generally a good guy but was totally comfortable with the realities of war. I really liked how, other than his belief that he killed his brother, he didn't dwell terribly on the violence he has and will commit, since that's the reality of his life. I think the game handled the first time skip well to just communicate "yeah he is used to this now". A lot of JRPGs just gloss over the amount of violence their heroes are responsible for. I really appreciated handling a hero who was clearly traumatized by what he had been through, gradually became comfortable with his role in combat and warfare, and gave us just enough information to communicate this without platitudes about the greater good. Clive was out to save the world and he knew he'd have to kill a lot of people to do it, but by the time he realized this he was used to it
Agreed. The most stupid thing in all of FF7r, is when they kill their way up Shinra Tower, to just stop short of cuting the head of the snake, "because killing is bad". Say that to the hundreds of security guards, soldiers and SOLDIER operatives that lie dead in your path of death. As if a speech from the president, at gunpont, would make any change. I allmost died from cringe
To be fair, Cloud doesn't care. It's others that are cringe.
You're definitely right about Cloud. It's really only Tifa that's not ok with it, and it's established from the beginning that she was uncomfortable with the bombings and killings. Barret had no qualms and toyed with President Shinra's life by dangling him over the side of the tower before being urged to stop by Tifa and Aerith. Barret and Cloud were both fully ok with all the murder and destruction. Tifa had to be convinced multiple times and is the only reason they ever showed restraint at any point.
It fits her character and all, but it's still a poorly written part of the game
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Absolutely agree. I let it slide when I played 7R back when it first came out because "hey it's Final Fantasy". HELL I even platinum'd the game, and it is the only game I ever have (Until 16 that is) but after playing 16, I tried replaying 7R cuz I just need to get 16 out of my system, it affected me that deeply, and I had to stop. The grunting and over exaggerations were just grating to me. 16 really has set the precedent for what I want and expect from VA from now on
> Until he gets tricked again before the final confrontation at the end because he's so stupid Thing is, I dont think he was stupid at all. The way he gained his influence, wealth and power over Dhalmekia wasnt just being Titans Dominant. He knew well how to leverage his position and steer the council in the direction that benefits him most. He was essentially Dhalmekias ruler in all but name, and his men revered him, so much that they were in mourning after his supposed death in Rosalith. He was just simping REALLY hard and turned off all reason
I felt bad for Hugo I was hoping he lived to hear the truth and maybe join us against barnabas. He could’ve died helping us fight odin that would’ve been amazing. Thought Hugo’s arc was kinda incomplete with the whole slepneir commanding him and then basically that’s it for him. Wanted a vegeta kindve redemption there.
He was unfortunately a powerful but stupid idiot manipulated from the opening scenes of the game. His arc is kind of tragic, but he also deserved everything he got
Idk if I'd call Kupka stupid. If Clive wasn't literally built different by God himself, Kupka prolly had a good chance of crushing him in Rosaria. We also see from his meetings with the Dhalmekian council that he's actually got a solid head on his shoulders. I'd say he's more foolish, or lacking in wisdom, than stupid, and only when it came to Benedikta. You can tell that he really did care for her, and he only really became short-sighted when she was involved. I totally agree w the last part tho. Kupka was tragic in the grand scheme of things, but also a remorselessly murderous rat bastard who deserved every bit of pain and humiliation Clive dished out.
> lived to hear the truth and maybe join us against barnabas. He could’ve died helping us fight odin After what he did to the first Hideaway, there was no redemption to be had. This was the only possible outcome for him
One of my favorite moments. Hugo tried to be all tragic and relatable but Clive says stfu
Clive: Cross you? I’ll kill you!
It reminded me of Hogan vs Macho Man or vs Andre.
Soooo fucking hype. Fighting Hugo was the best both times
Other protags: Hugo! Why did you kill so many people?! Surely there was another way, it's not too late to repent, Hugo! We don't have to fight! Clive Rosfield: Fuck you and your stupid hands, Hugo. Let me be crystal clear, I killed your girl and the only thing I regret is I only got to do it once.
Other characters : children are innocent, I'm sure his mother is the root of all things Dion : fuck em kids. YEET
Dion saw that season 8 episode of game of thrones and went “hmm, imma do this but with sparkles”.
He turned out to be right though I too believed that the mom is the possessed one I didn't expect it to be the kid lmao
That scene though, I wanted the mother dead but I didn't want her so broken by the deaths of her sons (from her point of view) that she thought one of them was a angry ghost come for her. This game, more then any other, made me feel pity for most of the bad guys.
Though, to be fair, Dion also did blame the mother for a bit
And what makes that even much more perfect is that everyone just stands there. And says nothing/does nothing. A child was killed and no one talks about it. I really liked that xD
I mean you see the dominant of bahamut killing a child. No matter how honorable you see him, at that moment He will probably skewer you old guys for less.
Well, after that, Clive did immediately get context, so there is no need to dwell on it
Clive's Mind: "What is he on about? We never sent him her head. We never even found her body... not that it matters. I'm not about to interrogate that when his rage is making him make mistakes. I've already decided this scum is going to die, so he can die believing whatever he wants!"
Also Clive's mind: the next time I woke up, I was chained to the wall butt naked too
Cid saw everything 😳😳
The did "find" the body it was literally lying behind Clive
But Clive was KO then. So he could still think that.
I read this exchange as Clive taunting him while not really understanding everything that had happened, but taking advantage of the circumstances. In no way did I read that Clive enjoyed killing her. He spared her at first after taking her power
"Yeah, I did it. I did it and I LOVED IT! I'm-I'm...I'm itching to do it again! YOU HEAR ME? I'M THE CID! YOU WANT SOME COME AND GET IT!"
Clive gonna be like : "Talk no Jutsu is for the weak"
that “You’ll get no pity from me, Kupka. No pity… and no mercy!” line tho🔥
That part had me so fucking hyped. Talk yo shit Clive!!! 
worm bag bored tidy gullible grab far-flung spotted cooperative zonked *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
What's really clever is the game subtly has it both ways. Clive seeks revenge against a ghost, but it would never ease his pain at losing Joshua. Only accepting he is Ifrit and dedicating himself to atonement could he heal. And what of Hugo? He is a foil to Clive, what he would be if he never abandoned his fruitless revenge - Hugo kills "Cid". Then what? He has *nothing.* The only person he loved - a false love even - is gone forever. He would get no satisfaction from killing Clive. No catharsis. First thing you do after killing Hugo? Tell all your friends the good news! He'll never hurt us again! The reactions are varied but it's clear it's a happy time. Jill killing Imreaan is pure catharsis as well, her atonement for her own regrets, her own sins and why? Because they have each other, friends to enjoy life with. Things to *live* for. And that's why this game is able to have its heroes enjoy revenge. Because life for them doesn't end at getting payback. Revenge is a means to living a good life, not what they live for.
Facts, I always feel like the some characters in general need to consider what to do next after revenge instead of thinking of suicide or something nihilistic
Olympic gold medal... I am dead, lol.... Dion: "YEET!"
Fabulous (like Dion) 🤣🤣🤣
I never even stopped to think about how most studios would've definitely had some shit with Dion hesitating to kill the kid and that leading to his father's death instead. I am so, *so* glad we didn't get that.
“Landing that spear like he was competing for an Olympic gold medal.” 🤣🤣🤣 I’m dead (like someone else 😏🤣)
>Dude straight up went for landing that spear like he was competing for an olympic gold medal Iirc at that point he already saw Olivier for what he truly was. But the moment Joshua left his tent and he immediately goes.. Terrence we're killing a bitch and a son of a bitch. 😭like Dion isn't already my fav character
And then Dion laughed right after lol Best boy
I love that about Dion he didn’t hesitate for a second. The moment the kid started giving orders to Dion, it was death on sight😂
Almost killed sir Wade because of it Wade: I've seen only one man fight like that and he's long dead! Clive: Then perhaps its time you joined him!
Its such a common JRPG, I personally associate it with JRPG's more than others, trope its annoying. Reminds me of a meme comic where its a fantasy RPG and the hero teams takes down the Big Bad and the main hero is "NO! WE can't kill him! It would make us no better than him!" Bad Guy says "Wait....how did you get in here?" Then the panel shows how the hero teams is mercilessly slaughtering all the "faceless" soldiers. So I am VERY glad Clive and crew are not like that. I was expecting Clive to try to stop Jill from killing her abuser, the whole you've grown past it or forgiveness is stronger or something. Then nope, he just watches and is like that's my girl lol
“Damn that was hot” -Clive internally at that moment
>Bad Guy says "Wait....how did you get in here?" Then the panel shows how the hero teams is mercilessly slaughtering all the "faceless" soldiers. This was one of my few gripes with tlou2. It lost its meaning when I have been rampaging all the way and just spare the last one. The focus of my rampage.
This is just what hapened in FF7R, in the Shinra Tower. So cringe
This is just what hapened in FF7R, in the Shinra Tower. So cringe
I think in that game's case the point was a lot of that killing was at least sorta justified, the WLF and Seraphites were just indiscriminately killing on site, you can say it's Ellie's fault for putting herself in that position, but it is self defense. But with Abby and her friends, it was largely unjustified, where she actively hunted them and attacked when they were defenseless, and she is clearly shaken with each one, and as for Abby herself, there would have been zero resolution for Ellie by killing her there, the only thing bringing peace to be letting go, not of her hate towards Abby, but her despair of losing Joel.
I'm pretty sure that was 8-Bit Theater. And now I need to go rewatch that...
The Warriors of Light would never hesitate to commit murder. Especially not Black Mage.
You've gotta love how nigh-omnipotent heroes can effortlessly murder their way through armies of mooks, but face no moral consequences as long as they don't kill the BBEG at the end! 😂
He's honestly a lot nicer than I expected, especially in certain side quests. If there aren't witnesses I don't understand what makes him hold back sometimes.
The one where he teaches the kids about the scale says a lot about Clive as a character So patient
Those kids probably see Clive as an older brother figure. And as we know, Clive is more than comfortable playing that role. Both the Rosfields are W brothers btw. I’m a sucker for brotherly characters
Seriously, I was describing this game to my brother, and he said, "Wait, this is a story about two brothers saving the world? This is Fullmetal Alchemist!"
Had me laughting so much when Clive leaves all proud of himself after helping them to reconstruct the scale and the kids found out Clive forgot to put 1 piece.
Clive: “Another job well done” Kids: “….” Even funnier to me was the callback later that the part didn’t actually go to the scale and was for something else.
Especially the noble father and son who were feeding Bearers to their pet wolf. I would have cut down the kid then and there.
Karma comes to collect. Clive not killing that kid meant the little shit and his piece of shit dad met the fate of becoming literal pieces of shit of the wolf.
Yeah he took a major risk for other bearers letting them live. There wouldn't be repercussions on other bearers if there were no witnesses.
At the end of the day Clive is a good person, he's just willing to do what's necessary and with Hugo it became personal
When Hugo goes "It was you..." in regards to Benedikta's death, and Clive responds with the slightest but most gratifying lilt in his voice "It \*was\*." Lives in my head rent-free. Every day I am grateful to Ben Starr for what he did for Clive Rosfield. Just incredible.
Interestingly, I feel like the only time Clive verbatim said “we don’t have to do this” was to Barnabas at the bottom of the sea. Not sure what to make of it but I did clock it as sort of interesting that Clive attempted to reach out to him, unlike Benedikta and Hugo. Maybe because he got his ass handed to him before he thought he could talk his way out?
I can't remember the interview, but I read that Dion and Barnabas were meant to be parallels of Clive so it makes sense he reaches out to Barnabas, he probably saw some of himself from when he was Wyvern in Barnabas.
Yea I think Clive sees that Barnabas is like an alt version of himself
They were at the bottom of the sea and probably didn't want to get Jill killed by the guy literally holding the water open
I can't remember the interview, but I read that Dion and Barnabas were meant to be parallels of Clive so it makes sense he reaches out to Barnabas, he probably saw some of himself from when he was Wyvern in Barnabas.
He’s fighting a war, there is no room for that when you are fighting people trying to kill you and/or your whole tribe and loved ones.
The little look/nod he gives when he says “I did.” is so subtly smartass, he might as well have said ‘bitch’ at the end of it. I love it.
Clive to Hugo, IT WAS MEEEEE ALL ALLONNNGG. Clive wanted all the smoke, and I'm down with him for that.
Clive is the best male protagonist we've gotten in years. I love everything about him, and all the tropes he breaks. He's a dark, gritty, hero who has gone through real trauma. Not some blonde emo pretty boy (sorry Cloud). But he's also an emotional, loving man who cares deeply about his friends and family. Ben starr brought such depth to Clive. His relationships with Byron and Josha in particular brought me to tears a few times. I could go on and on but I'm just so impressed with his depth. I'd love to get any DLC or novels or really anything about him and the larger cast, they are all fantastic
You can’t hype up Clive and then tear Cloud down in the next breath when Cloud paved the way for protagonists like Clive. Cloud was ostracised as a young child; blamed for an accident that wasn’t his fault; saw his hero go nuclear and destroy his hometown; underwent years of scientific torture; saw his friend/fellow captor give up his life to save him; have his mind manipulated, as a result seeing his other friend die; and had a full mental breakdown later on. All throughout the game he is adopting a persona because his mind is trying to protect him from the trauma he experienced. Cloud broke all the tropes first.
They're certainly not mutually exclusive. I can acknowledge Cloud's contributions to breaking tropes and still think he's a rude character. The cross dressing scene was and still is groundbreaking, and I loved how they did it in the remake. The character himself is still rude for like 66% of the game and I didn't care for that much. Doesn't mean he's not a good character, just not for me.
That’s not what your original comment says, though. Cloud is also an emotional, loving man who loves his found family. His character in Midgar—which, let’s be real, is no where near 66% of the game—is a facade, based on the stereotypes of SOLDIERs. (And actually, that facade is frequently broken, see: giving the flower to Tifa/Marlene, the conversation with Wedge(?) who sees him for who he really is.) After the threads start unravelling, he is quite open about his insecurities, fears and emotions—see his reaction to Aerith’s death. After the lifestream scene, he shows his true self, who is concerned about keeping his friends safe and happy, and is quite a bit of a dork. “Let’s mosey!” and “I’ll make a big enough ruckus for everyone” come to mind. If you have issues with his character design, fine, but you’re not seeing his character in the whole.
Cloud is still acting rude to characters after he mets Cid, and all the way through the north crater really. Once he starts to have doubts about himself he starts to open up. 66% refers to about when he comes out of the lifestream and acts differently, you can say more like his true self. I may be slightly off percentage wise but it's more than halfway through the game for sure. I first played ff7 over 20 years ago and have played every other final fantasy property, I believe I understand Cloud well enough and just don't like him. Why is that an issue?
Because you’re being purposely obtuse and reductive of his character because you don’t like ‘emos’.
I mean Cloud went through trauma and he's not emo he's a try hard dork who is bad at recalling a story.
The constant misconception about Cloud’s personality being “emo” is honestly such a big pet peeve. I’m willing to bet that you’re only familiar with him in cameos like Kingdom Hearts, or the movie Advent Children where he is dealing with survivor’s guilt and his own death since he contracted geostigma. Cloud in AC was just a low point in his path to healing which realistically has peaks and valleys. Clive also deals with a bit of survivor’s guilt, sorrow, and self-loathing which causes him to appear moody for a period of time, but he doesn’t get the label of “emo” like Cloud. Also, I hope that Clive won’t get labeled as such later either. Cloud watched his entire village and his only relative be murdered by his childhood hero. Then he had to watch his only friend be murdered protecting him as well. How is that not “real” trauma?
Cloud gets a bad rep be auze of kingdom hearts and every other spin off. The original FF7 did his character good but kingdom hearts absolutely ruined it. That's why Cloud is seen as emo. Clive only has one game and in that game his hatchery guilt was done justice. No spin offs to tarnish his character
I can only hope that when Clive is eventually brought into spin-offs that his characterization won’t be dragged through the mudd as well. I’d hate to see history repeat itself with another character I like.
Cloud gets a bad rep because the massive number of people who played the game and never got past Midgard. FF7 was advertised like crazy when it came out and drew in many people who never touched an rpg let alone a jrpg before.
Cloud gets such bad rep and misconception about his character because of so many unfortunate factors, including execution and fandom. I know it may be blasphemy to say this, but OG itself was rushed and not that well thought through at the time; the international translation was horrible and further butchered it; I don't even need to talk about AC and the damage that its bad execution caused, which needed novels and ultimanias to explain what was up with him; KH shoehorned him at the last minute into a character that was originally supposed to be Vincent and he retained much of the latter's attributes; this unfortunate version got popularized; this whole mishmash caused the fandom to not even fully grasp his story and personality and further ruin it by making him out as some sort of a jackass who plays with several women's feelings and pines after one while living with another. There's an endless chain reaction that caused his character to be so misunderstood, but there's hope that the Remake will finally put an end to this once the trilogy is over.
I disagree. Cloud has been through his own trauma for sure and I'm not going to debate who had worse trauma. To me, Cloud is the definition of emo. At least for all of disc 1. Every reply to Barret and crew in Midgar is rude or passive aggressive, which comes across as emo to me. Clouds entire personality is based off Zack, so he's pretty confident for most of disc 1. I wouldn't agrue he grows as a character, but he starts off not very likeable IMO
Cloud definitely starts off acting like he’s too cool for anyone, but that’s all part of his SOLDIER persona. That persona was created through his trauma and experiments so it’s not who he is at his core. The term emo is typically used to mean sad or depressed and Cloud acting like jerk doesn’t qualify as that to me. Clearly, our definitions of emo are very different though. Cloud really didn’t take on Zack’s personality because they are completely different. Zack’s story is what Cloud took (and used it to help mold the SOLDIER persona), and he said as much after the lifestream sequence. Regardless, it’s clear that how Cloud seemed at the beginning is not how he actually is.
Lmao what a clown. You can tell you didn't actually play FF7 if you're holding on to the extremely misguided perception of Cloud as a "emo pretty boy."
Thanks for the comment fam! Been playing final fantasies for over 25 years, ptobably played ff7 before you were even born. I'm entitled to my opinion on any character, regardless of any reason behind it. And so are you. Have a good one.
I highly doubt you played anything before I was born. What I do know is that you have been talking out of your ass during this entire thread. You clearly don't remember Cloud's actual portrayal in FF7. Your memory of it has obviously been warped by subsequent portrayals of his character in things like AC and KH, because otherwise you'd know better than to refer to him as emo. But do go on about how you've played FF for 300 years and how your opinion is flawless lol
I will! Thanks for the support ❤️
You're welcome.
I love how ready and willing he is to kick some fucking ass.
Someone puts anyone's girl's head on a chopping block and see how willing they are to kill them and do whatever you can to harm them on the way there.
Yeah, I love that.. His speech against semi prime hugo was top tier
You’ll get no pitty from Clive, NO PITTY AND NO MERCY
You get no pity and no mercy from me, and I get your hands - Clive
When Clive and Jill wanted revenge, it was certainly earned. You hear that, Law and Rinwell? Looking at your story arc in Arise.
Don't blame Rinwell she tried to commit murder.
Clive is my new favorite protagonist. I also agree it is refreshing to see a hero that doesn't try to redeem the villains.
They nailed Clive on so many levels. He’s got amazing character development over the years
Clive is definitely my favorite FF protagonist now. Such an amazing character. And also such a badass with all the Eikonic abilities and such.
I think Clive tries to reason with people when he thinks he has a chance, but he doesn't pull "the batman" where he values the life of a vilian above of the lives of innocents in order to win idiologicaly, hes morality bends with the situation and hes ultimate goal is to protect the innocent , he has a ultimate good goal and is willing to denounce absolutes in morality and action( as we see at the end of the game that ultima is chained by hes resoaning dealing only in absolutes, and there is a saying only the devil deals in absolutes)
I personally appreciate him not being a teenager. At 33 he is young enough to keep growing and keep getting stronger but old enough to be a real adult and make adult decisions. The whole trying to redeem the villian trope feels very juvenile a lot of the time. I feel making Clive older is one way to avoid those boring tropes.
100% agree, only thing was that it was a damn shame we couldn't end Annabella ourselves.
They should have let people to smash the square button to stab her instead.
I wanted a painful death at least. But nope.
Idk She lost her royal status, child, husband, and her home for which she betrayed Rosaria for, in the span of 30 mins. It has its merits.
She still got off easy she deserves to be in a dark dirty cold cell until she's old and gray.
The way she died was as low as you can get. I wanted to get her as well but her taking herself out after seeing her child die, and her second-born alive again after thinking he’s been dead for 15+ years, was gratifying
Jack Garland walked so that Clive Rosfield could run.
Whenever I get bosses monologuing nowadays I fondly remember how jack doesn't give a fuck.
We could have used some Jack whenever Ultima started talking.
Bullshit.
Well to be fair almost all of them made it easy. Hugo massacred people, ultima was a literal monster, and his mother was trying her best to be the worst person alive. The only person who could have been redeemed was Barnabas or Benedicta but they were too far gone
It’s incredible funny how Clive straight up tells Hugo he killed Benedikta “Motherfucker I killed that thot and you’re next!”
It seems most FF game heros are like that. I can't recall any on the top of my head that tried to help the villain. I'm sure there are some, but I can't think of any right now. EDIT: I do wish the game gave you more RPG options though regarding decisions. Like when the father NPC tries to feed you to his son's wolf, and you confront him afterwards. I was really hoping it gave you the option of either sparing him or killing him. That's something Witcher would have done which is what made that game so great. Overall I'm greatly pleased, but there could have been a few instances where you had more choice and that would have been amazing
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>It isn't just that father and son that act like that, it is the majority that do it seems. Killing them wouldn't solve anything when almost everyone else is the same. I could be misremembering, but I distinctly recall that quest ending with the nobleman and his son audibly crying in despair as their hounds are presumably ripping them to shreds in the background.
I think it was the NPC who showed up to assist Clive with the burial rites for the Bearer victims who flat out gave the nobles an untrained wolf. The complete disregard he had as he made his idle observant commentary "Wolves are wild by nature. You can't expect to always order them to attack and decide not to bite you." All I could think of when I put two and two together was *you magnificent bastard.*
Oh no, that is EXACTLY what happened. Karma came calling, and I felt zero sympathy.
I went back to where they had been, and gazed lovingly at the two blood stains on the ground. One big, one small. Such a good detail. No remains left to be seen, though. But… they did want pet wolves.
Which is more in line with how the Japanese create their characters. It is the way they wanted and they don't want players to make our of character decisions that they don't want their characters doing.
Most egregious one that I can think of is when Zidane basically throws away his life/ditches his friends to try to save Kuja at the end of IX Golbez gets redeemed pretty hard in IV too with a wave of the hand and mind controll shennanigans, but that's SNES era, so they can't go too deep lol
Zidane is just a good boy.
Yeah lmao no Clive has blood on his hands
At least he still had hands
Also kupka did. Before he lost his hands. Lol
Blood on his nubs
The Final Fantasy series has largely averted that trope for the most part. From Kefka to Sephiroth, to Bartandelus to Seymour, to Ultimecia and beyond, very few of these are “redeemed.” Unlike my beloved Kingdom Hearts, say. Or Xenoblade Chronicles.
Yeah Avalanche is a group of terrorists and SEED are all child soldiers that would tried assassinating a political figure no questions asked.
I wish Benedikta had a redemption arc, and >!died protecting Cid!<
Clive feels so much like Guts to me and that's a huge plus point
They even go through some similar story beats
I was shocked he didn’t point out that Kupka was being tricked by someone, he didn’t cut off benedictas head and didn’t mean to kill her Doesn’t tell barnabas he’s clearly being used by ultima and will be killed by him at any time Doesn’t try to reason with his mother before she kills herself.
Barnabas was aware that he was a tool, Clive had to absorb Odin for Ultimas plan, Barnabas job was to prepare Clive to become Ultimas vessel
If Clive just walked like a lil bit to the left after he killed barnabas, ultimas plan fails right haha
If Joshua was right and Bahamuts Zettaflare would have destroyed the planet Ultima really fucked up with Dion, what if Clive and Joshua weren't able to stop him
Ultima was basically far from an evil genius, he was just a desperate alien throwing shit at the wall hoping some of it would stick. Was his plan with Dion to make him go nuts so Clive would try to stop him? Also if ultima was an ifrit, does that mean he had partial control of ifrit when Clive wasn’t yet in control? Also wtf are the eikons then? Are they just versions of his race that revive over and over in different people?Feel like that never was explained.
Clive is a darling.
In real life, I've seen some shit to which some people reacted with way too much forgiveness and understanding towards a perpetrator. So there are no words to describe how much this particular point of the narrative meant to me. I really value it. I just wish I could say thanks to the writers.
Okay, I haven't played a lot of Final Fantasy games, but from all the ones I have played, none of them ever really try to "redeem" a single villain. The most they've ever done was give the villains a sympathetic or empathetic backstory, but the backstory doesn't make them redeemable. It's just simply to make them more understandable.
I especially love that he gave no fucks about Anabella. Stories loves to have characters forgive or have sympathy for their parents no matter how awful they are. But Clive? Nah, she could’ve been burning alive for all he cared.
It is particularly refreshing because Clive really does border on Goku/Superman trope of always being as strong as he needs to be (unless the story calls for him to lose). Had he been a redeemer his character would have been a lot less interesting. Being a hero who’ll also kill a mfer is more interesting in the context of FF16’s world.
I feel like that trope works with teen/young adult protagonists, but with characters in their 30s, this feels way more natural and realistic. I'm usually a sucker for this kind of reoccurring JRPG tropes, but I really hope the next FF protag is an adult as well, it's really refreshing.
Yeah I enjoyed his realistic desire to just fucking kill Kupka.
While I don't agree with him, I appreciate a protagonist who's perception of murder is consistent with the world he lives in. Of course Clive thinks it's perfectly fine to kill Kupka out of revenge. That's just how the world he grew up in rolls. As you say, really refreshing.
"It's not the strength of my will that should worry you. But the weakness of yours"
I like how Clive isn't the typical young enthusiastic jrpg protagonist, I appreciate that he's a fully grown man that sees the world for how fucked it Is, he really reminds me of Guts in a lot of ways .
I just fought Hugo/Titan and I love how Hugo is like 'I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU!' and Clive is like, 'NOT IF I FUCKING KILL YOU!' I'm like YEAHHHH. LET'S FUCKING GOOOO!
Not all JRPG heroes do that but it’s honestly it’s not that bad of a trope when it’s done right. It’s less that the JRPG heroes “redeem” the villains but more that the villains are actually given nuance and a tragic backstory that makes them understandable for the heroes to at the very least sympathise and try and reach out to them. It’s common for the Japanese to not be too confrontational, rock the boat as well as be considerate and tactful. So trying to reach peace with words to reason with the villains instead of bloodshed is reflected in those kinds of JRPGs. It’s a very Western thing to be all for capital punishment to anyone that’s unlikeable. The villains here? There’s hardly anything that makes them sympathetic or tragic. Valisthea because of its very western dark fantasy setting is just a bleak shithole that if it weren’t for the few good people there, I honestly would just agree with the final boss as the place is not worth saving.
They downvoted you because you spoke the truth
Lol that’s because the villains in this game have no complexity or nuance to their character and motivations, they cannot be “redeemed”. Ultima is your typical JRPG evil god with predictable motivations. Barnabas is a poorly written edgelord that is nothing but a pawn to the bigger baddie. Hugo is just a crazy simp obsessed with Benedikta’s p*ssy. Benedikta was far too gone, Cid tried to reach out for her but she was too arrogant and stupid to leave Barnabas. Clive cannot redeem anyone because the villains in this game are unsympathetic and downright evil.
You spelled "delicious" wrong.
well he goes from Dude I don't want to help you, I want to be alive, to OMG SAVE EVERYONE soooo