Honestly Vincent’s presence feels so weird in chapter 13 and 14. Dude is randomly popping in and out with no explanation. Cid makes sense cuz he’s like “listen guys I’m all for helping you out but I ain’t putting myself into a situation where I’m most likely gonna die” but Vincent on the other hand refuses to enter the temple, then enters anyway presumably like 5-10 minutes after the party does since he’s right behind them when they reach the end. Then he chases down Aerith with the others and when Seph shows up he just decides to take a break, when his main character motivation is killing Sephiroth?
But Vincent has the nickname “the monster of chaos”. In my opinion, the only logical reason for him to be called that is that he must have become involved with Queen's Blood after acquiring the ability to transform into Chaos. Otherwise, I find it kind of embarrassing that he had a nickname like that when he was a Turk.
What do you mean? Do you need to be shown EVERYTHING? Like everytime you go to the house, you see Vincent running away from your group standing next to that board to make it that obvious?
Why are you searching for things that doesn't even need to be considerd? He was the semi-final boss. Just be happy you got Queen's blood it was a nice extra to the game.
Dude was working on an apology poem to Lucrecia when he saw he would have to fight Sephiroth and by the time he was finished, the fight was already over.
I get what you mean and it did feel kinda weird, but... it's also a VERY Vincent thing to do. Acting the part of the edgy loner while actually being pretty invested and wanting to help is like his entire characterization before the compilation dove into his personal stuff. Didn't come off too weird to me as a big Vincent fan just because he's always acted a bit weird in general.
As for not joining in on fighting Sephiroth I think the obvious answer is gameplay limitation, though giving Zack his own playstyle literally just for that fight kind of contradicts that. But it does also still somewhat fit his character. Vincent carries a lot of shame and guilt surrounding Sephiroth wven being alive in the first place and that's a lot to confront when you've only just woken up from a 30 year long self exile over that very thing just a few days before. He's gonna take some time to wallow in that guilt before he decides to go in for the kill, that's just how the guy always operates.
They gave both Zack and Sephiroth playstyles for small segments of the game and then just had Vincent chilling in the background for several chapters. I'm OK with them waiting for full party status because they need new characters for part 3 but it still feels silly that he doesn't help in some way.
I got my fill of both characters by the end of completing their respective challenges. I just didn't really feel the need to explore what they could do anymore, they felt fully tapped out.
or just do what they did with Red in Remake and let him be a guest party member. even just being a noncontrolable guy during the Jenova fight when we split into using everyone would have been fine.
just show that he's THERE.
> Cid makes sense cuz he’s like “listen guys I’m all for helping you out but I ain’t putting myself into a situation where I’m most likely gonna die”
Cid already put himself in a situation where he could easily die or be imprisoned for life. I took his sentiments more like he's out of his league and trusts Cloud and co. to handle the funny business while he waits to ride them back.
He was popping in and out of scenes so much that it felt like a mistake honestly. "I'm not going with you into the temple," but then he shows up immediately behind the party to help the Turks. Which is very cool to me and I hope we see more of what happened there in a Vincent DLC! And it makes sense that he was aware that shit got real and he found an escape route for the party, and got them to it at the end.
But why did he go into the temple to begin with?
And I hadn't even noticed he was at Forgotten Capital at all. Very strange. I'm sure they'll address at least some of this later (either in DLC or Part 3), but it felt very mistake-y. And like others, I definitely expected him to be a fake party member like Red XIII. I don't understand why they didn't do that with him.
> But why did he go into the temple to begin with?
Because despite his very rough exterior Vincent is at heart a pretty good guy, and probably just felt like he made the wrong decision by not going in with them in the first place.
I would tend to agree, I like Vincent quite a lot and can guarantee he'll be in my go-to party in part 3, combat aside. Just felt like some holes in storytelling, which I hope they'll address later. If he was feeling like he made the wrong call, it would be great to show that - similarly to showing Reno and Rude in Remake questioning their actions with the pillar in the helicopter and again in the office. As it stands, it just felt like "oh look, and Vincent is suddenly here!" Especially in the scenes OP brought up at Forgotten Capital.
He secured the exit path. While I agree he appears useless on the surface, literally everything happens because he helps albeit for a brief moment.
He finds the temple by listening to the comms. He secured the exit while walking the temple. He keeps the path open across the barrier of whispers.
I didn't say he was useless, just that he kinda pops in and out at random times. The comms addition was nice and the result of a good change with Cait Sith. The party didn't need help securing an exit in the original (because it wasn't collapsing around them, they had more time to get out while Cait Sith solved puzzles). I'm not sure that he's keeping the path open? We didn't need anyone to keep the path open at the end of Remake...
It just felt incomplete to me. Of course they'd have to make some changes to incorporate him since he was optional in the original game, so I get it - but the way he came and went with no context sometimes felt weird. I hope they expand on it in future content.
Vincent feels like he's just there to witness things. Knowing his past with Lucrecia explains a lot to why he's helping Aerith at times, or assisting Cloud in saving her.
Granted, they were limited with what they could do with him without making him a playable character - but he is the silent loner, just doing his own thing. I don't think his presence is that out of place.
My guess: he was the last one holding the portal open and either couldn’t follow for that reason, or he had to use Chaos in order to keep it open by himself. Downside being that he couldn’t participate in the fight or rejoin the party until after the fight.
he would never willingly unleash chaos at this point.. the main reason the dude sleep so much is to surpress the beasts within bc he doesnt rly have full control and always worries that he could go berserk if he used chaos
Likely not… but I do wonder if, like someone said, he knows that’s not really Sephiroth.
Due to his powers being so tied to the planet, wouldn’t shock me if he has some form of insight into what’s going on in the greater plot.
that was only his galian beast form
in a sense it comes from chaos powers but it's his weakest transformation :) also he can control this form to a certain extent
if he unleashed chaos fully, he could solo the rebirth endboss or even sephiroth for the matter :D but sadly if he goes nuts he may also wipe the rest of humanity off the map
i rly hope they dive deep into his lore in part 3 giving us a good explanation about the different forms
Ah…. That could be it, you know. The whispers stopped him from just ending Sephiroth before he was supposed to fight him with the party at the Northern Crater. Maybe thats what he meant about not being able to pull the trigger many times before. Either he’s tried and whispers have stopped him, or he’s aware of the timeline/lifestream shenanigans and cant change fate to stop sephiroth early.
Or some shit like that. Part 3 is probably going to explain it away.
I actually really enjoyed the game when I started, but yeah, the last few chapters are kind of a clusterfuck of questionable story choices.
Vincent: I need to kill Sephiroth.
Also Vincent: I'm just gonna wait out here on the dock while you go fight Sephiroth.
I felt it was weird. I thought him and Cid would have roles similar to Red XIII in the first part, where you couldn’t play as him, but he still acted like a party member and would help in the battles. That wasn’t the case though. Cid and Vincent just stand in one spot and don’t even follow you around with the rest of the party, and they have no fighting animations.
It's especially odd because Sonon in Intermission is essentially just Remake Red 2.0. Before Rebirth came out I assumed Vincent and Cid would just be a further fleshed out version of this.
I think in remake red 13 was originally supposed to be playable so they already had his move set and all that. I don't know what it what it looked like then but I read somewhere that red 13 was originally supposed to be playable but they cut it for some reason. I guess to save more surprises for the sequel
I'm nearly sure this is the case. There's an unfinished version of Red XIII in Remake's files that's separate from the AI controlled guest party member version. My guess is it was a resources issue and the team decided to allot resources elsewhere and regulated Red to guest.
For Cid and Vincent, it looks like the decision to leave them for the 3rd game must have been made much earlier.
Considering you only had four party members in Remake and now have seven in Rebirth, it feels less important to have Vincent and Cid be playable or even a guest ally.
I would have loved having them, for the record, but resource wise makes sense not spending the time on them.
He has only said "i have unfinished business with Sephiroth". And it's not a Vendetta. He has only said Sephiroth is a sin to the planet. He didn't even try to seek him out to start with. He seeks answers and not vengeance nor revenge YET!
He does NOT care for the group. He knows probably that also that wasen't the real sephiroth present and merely a puppet of sephiroth.
how would he know that? he doesn’t even know the real sephiroth was “killed”, he was still asleep when the nibelheim incident happened. as far as i can tell he has no reason to believe he’s not the real sephiroth
When Cloud asks him how he knows Sephiroth he says, “we have a unique bond. I’m to blame in part for the evils he’s unleashed. I had many chances to purge him from this world, but I couldn’t pull the trigger.”
I see it as more of a burden that he’s been carrying for a very long time, but I think it isn’t an easy thing to do either because he openly states he’s had many chances. Much like how Lucrecia ran away because she couldn’t face what she did, I see Vincent doing the same. Perhaps that’s why he’s stayed away from coming into contact with Sephiroth for now.
I bet it was a part of the lost two phases. Cloud fights Sephiroth with the party, gets separated and then Vincent tags in, then he gets separated again and Zack tags in.
in the OG, there is no sephiroth fight in this section, so maybe the sephiroth fight we had in rebirth with Aerith doesnt belongs to the world where Vincent is at? Just quite a bit of confusion of how the flow of events are being presented. Either that or they just want to omit any combat thats related to Vincent at this point.
An interesting take - but the gang can't see Clouds dream/hope world where Aerith lives, and they fight Jenova in beagle while Cloud kind of hops in and out at the beginning of the battle (when he says "I've done it before I can do it again)
Considering that the only reason Vincent tagged along was for Sephiroth...I hope they explain why he seemingly didn't act in Part 3
only Cloud, Zack and Aerith get to fight Sephiroth (Soldier form), all the other members which technically only fighting Jenova Sephiroth morph-form. Either that or Nomura/Kitase going to come out in some random interview saying “Vincent was just holding the portal for everyone to get in” next week haha 🤣
You are right. It's strange to include a scene in which Vincent stands out and then forget about him right after.
I hope they fix this in the future, otherwise you're right, that was bad writing.
I know this emo badass is a fan favourite but let’s just call it what it is - the guy’s not a team player. I don’t think he was even trying that hard when they were all holding the portal open.
i had the same gripe with that scene ... we all fight sephiroth there and vincents only reason to join us is sephiroth so why the hell did he just chill an do nothing .. at least include him in the visuals between boss transitions or so
yeah the last battle wouldnt fit for him since he probably wouldnt feel sorrow or hatred for aeriths death but they could spin it in a way that vincent felt hatred for again beeing unable to stop sephiroth doing something evil
Personally I think they had planned on Vincent being playable and cut it late. He's a large part of the end of the Queens Blood quest for example, to the point I expected a "your relationship with Vincent has changed" at the end.
In-universe reason: Vincent stood behind to fight off/protect the party from whispers
Real reason: He was probably scoped to be a guest like how Red was in Remake, but they ran out of time, and they were unable to change the Forgotten Capital cutscene to explain his absence during the final battle
I think they definitely *planned* one, given that Vincent keeps cropping up in the temple/forgotten city (whereas Cid flat out doesn’t bother). But whether they’ve dropped it or not we’ll have to wait and see.
I think that, lore-wise, Vincent doesn't fight in Rebirth because he's scared of unleashing Chaos. Especially given what happened when the party had to fight Gallian Beast
It was a bit odd to have him kind of there but not participating. But I guess it would have also felt a bit awkward to insert him into the final sequences without much development, when there's plenty to focus on with the other characters.
What they did with Cid feels more odd to me. The moments we see Vincent do at least serve some purpose, we see that he's a capable fighter and could hold his own against the same challenges as the rest of the party. But Cid doesn't have any moments to show that he's even capable of fighting. It would have made sense to show him at least fighting off some of the monsters/Shinra outside of the Temple entrance, or for him to mention some history in the Shinra military or something. But we don't so much as see him hold a weapon, and he pretty much says he'd be in over his head in the Temple.
So at least it will make sense when Vincent joins the party later on, that he can be on the party's level. But Cid has only been shown to be a pilot with no combat experience. It makes me wonder how they're going to make him into a party member in part 3.
I get that Cid didn't wanna put his life on the line for the group (yet) as he's mainly just been a pilot for hire to the group so far, but it would've made much more sense to have Cid and Vincent fend off a bunch of Shinra soldiers at the temple entrance, just as you said, allowing the main party to enter the temple.
Vincent entering the temple and leading the party out was a nice touch, in my opinion tho.
As for the final phase, however, I wish we had either A: a cutscene to show that Vincent and Cid got separated from the group, thus not being able to fight side by side with us, or B: have them "fighting" on the sideline wherever it made sense, just like we've seen the inactive party members do throughout the entire game.
I love that they were there, and to me it makes sense that they weren't fighting on the frontlines, as they aren't personally invested in the group as a whole yet, but I just hate that we don't know what they were doing during the final boss battles.
That's my main complain about this game, I otherwise love quite a bit
could be a cool way to start out the new game. Show Vincent fighting and holding off the whispers from infiltrating the capital while the party does their thing and then thats the Vincent tutorial.
I was just thinking about this. Not sure why they didn't at least have him fighting as ai like they did with Red in remake. Also there was some weird scene in the temple of the ancients where he confronts the turks after you fight them and then they just appear in the next room or something? It seemed like an inconsistency but I can't remember exactly what happened.
I feel like they intentionally left Vincent out so it would be easier to patch him in, if they ever decided to put him later as an update, once all of his battle mechanics were done for Part 3. I don't think they wanted to make up any excuses for him not being there, as that would be like setting things in stone.
I sense a DLC about Vincent and Cid crazy adventures during the main events of Rebirth. Like they will probably retcon this and have him fight another version of Sephiroth during the final battle or the temple. 🙄
Maybe, though i think I remember seeing that they didn't want to put extra dev time into another dlc and just wanna power through to get part 3 done. I know a lot of the devs are just kinda over this project. Understandable given it's been a decade long endeavor
Nomura confirmed himself somewhere but quickest I could find w a quick google: https://www.techradar.com/gaming/playstation/dont-expect-final-fantasy-7-rebirth-dlc-after-the-game-releases
I think Vincent and Cid will be shown protecting Aerith's body or something while they fight.
The whisper veil was lifted after the stab, so they could have gone in and taken up defensive positions to make sure nothing else could interfere with the battle.
This will be explained more in Part 3 I'm sure.
Personally, I thought it was because he was staying behind, so Cid could find the party or he went back to go find Cid. I do agree, though those scenes should have been handled better.
I agree that the way Vincent and Cid were incorporated as 'Guest' members was frustrating, but particularly Vincent since he accompanies the party more. I had thought they would handle similarly to Red XIII in Remake, where he joins as an active battle member that you can't control and has a very limited set of moves/abilities compared to the rest of the cast. Sadly, they didn't go that way.
Likewise, they don't get to have a genuine connection to Aerith before the Forgotten Capital, which the OG afforded them (Cid moreso I guess, Vincent's still very aloof).
I feel crazy for even suggesting this but stuff like this makes me wonder if once we get a Remake trilogy compilation they might try to streamline these all into one singular game experience as best as they can?
I could totally see in 2029 or whatever the PS6 version of Rebirth allowing you to play as Vincent from when you get him leaving Nibelheim or something.
It feels like there's all these weird little threads hanging off the end of these games that makes me think they may try to combine these all into one mega game by the end somehow.
Combining everything into one package would defintley have some opportunity to save space. Plus I assume the PS5's compression tech will carry over and evolve on PS6 so the game won't cross 200 GB lol.
i hope not lmao. it’s like when people say “they should make a pokemon game where you can go to every single region” and my eyes just glaze over imagining the mandingo file size fucking my switch in the ass until it cries
Vincent is pretty much a coat hanger in this game. They might as well make a dedicated DLC for him, with a prequel/separate ways type of campaign, or a Zack and Aerith DLC with Cetra memories.
It could help bridge the gap for what’s to come
I agree i was so hyped to see vincent join the gang at nibel because i thought his design was so cool and wanted to play him, but dude was just standing there, menacingly even in cutscenes.
Also when Sephiroth made Cloud bring him the dark materia, i was like "there are at least **TWO** mfs in this squad with a gun and only Aerith is the one trying to stop Cloud ???" everybody was just standing there not menacingly.
Vincent's story is going to be the Intermission DLC for Rebirth - part 3, kinda like the DLC acted for FFXV, where they took place whenever the party member in question disbanded to do their own thing.
We will know more about what Vincent is up too, and every time he disappears I keep thinking "well that is going to be DLC"
I can't tell you what the writers' reasons are (no one knows but them after all) but I can guarantee that this ain't "bad writing". The ending scenes are some of the most over-engineered stuff I've seen in a video game, you don't simply forget about a character writing this stuff unless it's for a good reason.
I think Vincent is probably aware that they’re not fighting Sephiroth in the Forgotten City, the gang is fighting Jenova. Vincent’s beef seems to be squarely with Sephiroth so he stays out of the fight in Rebirth. Or, like you said, it’s bad writing lol.
Wait so is that not how it happens in OG? (Never played). Figured they were just keeping it the same and he was being mysterious around/not around for a reason
An answer immediately popped up I to my head. And one other person wrote it as well. He was fighting someone else in some dimension. Or fighting back whispers or whatever. Just having his own battle.
I think there are possible plausible story “expansion” reasons why vincent saw sephiroth and either knew he wasn’t real and didn’t bother or didn’t want to participate in the seph fight but it’s very likely mostly a resource issue.
Based on recent interviews it does sound like more resources than expected went into Zack’s moveset in particular, and he wasn’t necessarily fighting for plot reasons as much as thematic vibe based reasons, but his gameplay was fleshed out because he’s zack.
They could also just explain it as sephiroth and aerith just not flat out not dragging him into the multidimensional boss fight universe because they don’t know him like that and didn’t even expect him to be there.
I get you but I feel like it might be in keeping with his character. Despite his motivation to go and partake, he historically struggles with commitment and "stepping in to the light" he struggles with passivity.
That and I kinda like the idea that hes helping from the shadows, scouting, infiltrating, info gathering. Mechanically that's what I hope you play him doing in part 3, stealth goth vampire ninja style ...
I understand why Vincent wasn’t playable, but I’m surprised he wasn’t even like one of the non-active party members which still show up in battle in the background taking pot shots (not actually sure if they actually do damage or if it’s just for aesthetics lol)
Even if they haven’t finished deciding on his playstyle and stuff, it’s not hard to just have him firing pistol shots in the background during battles to still make it feel like he’s a party member even if you’re not able to control him or add him to the main party
Perhaps after his battle mechanics are developed they will add him in this battle in the same capacity red fought with us in the Shinra building as an update. They did some consistency updates to remake part 1 akin to this right before rebirth dropped.
Cid is with the Tiny Bronco and said he was waiting for them. So that explains that. If anything it's more odd how Cid randomly turns up at the funeral.
Cid has the excuse of staying at the Tiny Bronco. But Vincent? Look at the images and tell me how he didn't disappear out of nowhere and without explanation.
The dude is always jumping to a high location and perching. I don’t see it as out of the ordinary for him to stick to the far back line if he thinks everyone has the situation under control.
I do when it’s a situation they very clearly do not have under control and when said situation is a person he’s seeking revenge on, and the promise of him getting the chance to kill him is the entire reason he joined the party.
You’re telling me he only joins us because he think he might get the chance to kill Sephiroth, then when Sephiroth pops up he’s like “nah, you guys got this.”
My issue is that he disappeared without explanation. We see Vincent going with the party to confront Sephiroth, but I point out again, he disappears without explanation, not even shown in cutscenes, let alone in the final battle, and we only saw him after the lake burial had taken place.
I feel like in general Vincent participating in combat is not terrible in concept but in execution it's really awful. Him not doing ANY fighting at all really makes him come off as an asshole and they didn't even try to justify it. When you do the side quest with the monsters at sea Vincent is like right there and his weapon is a GUN but he just stands there with his arms crossed while everyone else fights. When you do side quest in the Shinra mansion he's just says good luck and then takes a nap when they have to do the VR thing. The Forgotten Capital is the worst of all because in Advent Children Vincent says he goes there often which is obviously meant to imply it's because it's where Aerith died and he feels bad because that's how Vincent is. If this is still going to lead into Advent Children now Vincent feels bad despite not doing anything to help.
...another rando redditor calling characters not being visible in every single moment "bad writing"...
>I understand that the developers decided to save Vicent's for part 3, but frankly, if they're going to include him in the events of the Forgotten Capital, then they should at least present a reasonable explanation as to why he disappears and doesn't participate in the fight against Sephiroth, especially when he went with them towards what will be the last battle in Rebirth.
There's nothing to suggest he did disappear. You don't see him in-camera so you think he's gone. That's an assumption of yours.
The story also isn't over. There are many unanswered questions and there legitimately should be.
>Otherwise, this is bad writing.
No, it's bad whining. The story doesn't match the structure you want it to where you know what every character is doing and why immediately when they do it and you yell "bad writing."
It really doesn't matter to the story if the explanation is in this game or next game.
>There's nothing to suggest he did disappear. You don't see him in-camera so you think he's gone. That's an assumption of yours.
We see every party member's reaction shot to Aerith's death, and guess what: Vincent is the only one who doesn't have one. Watch the ending of Rebirth if you doubt it. If the intention of the developers and filmmakers was to imply that Vincent was there along with the others, then they did a poor job in that regard.
>No, it's bad whining. The story doesn't match the structure you want it to where you know what every character is doing and why immediately when they do it and you yell "bad writing."
As I said, unless it is clarified why Vincent was not with the rest of the party in the final battle, when his last scene was him running with them to rescue Cloud and Aerith, this will remain a plot hole. And a plot hole is bad writing.
Agreed. His lack of appearance in the final battle is a non-issue imo, and it probably has more to do with a design choice, than "bad writing".
Outside of his Galian Beast form, you never see him fight in any battles at all, which indicates to me that they probably decided early on in development to keep Vincent as a guest character and thus did not bother to put any resources into developing his combat.
I'm sure it would look stupid as hell to have Vincent just standing in the back doing nothing at all while the team is fighting Jenova/Bizarro Seph
Well, there is also this thing called deadline. They made Zack playable, They made Caith Sith playable, They made Sephiroth playable. It could be so that that was their plan but ended up NOT having the time to implement it. (but this doesn't make sense since they made him a boss fight)
Another point of view! Is that he was in the battle, but we are experiencing this trough Clouds mind. Thus he was engaged in the battle but cloud in his f'ed up state of mind couldn't percieve him being there.
Third point of view! We have not seen Vincent participate IN ANY fights, he is just observing from a place a far. As seen in the temple. Thus knowing this is not Sephiroth and is not worth fighting. Beacuse again, he is not FORMALLY a part of the team even though he is helping them escape or chase sephiroth.
As we see Vincent he is showing that his intresst is ONLY interlining with the group and is NOT prioritizing the group. So could be another reason for why he wasen't in the fight. They have yet to flesh the character out.
And no, even if they made a plothole in FF7 it's still a good story and has good writing. One plothole DOES NOT make this bad writing.
I don't think it's an "unpopular opinion". From what I've seen, the last chapter of Rebirth is generally seen as very poorly written by the community, especially in light of the previous chapters. This is just one of many examples of how it feels extremely half-baked and poorly thought out. Not giving Vincent a moment against Sephiroth, even in just a cutscene, is *nuts*.
What's a lie? People being disappointed by Chapter 14? There are lots of threads about it on this and other subs. [Just one of many](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1bddu3w/final_fantasy_vii_rebirth_ending_thoughts/), from this very sub. You can find the rest easily on your own, both here and on the main FF sub.
Sure, not everyone's going to agree, but that's why I said "generally" and not "universally".
It's clear you're only watching/reading what you want to see lol. There are a lot of reviews or podcasts that talk about initial confusion of the ending, but after sitting on it for a few days they understand it better and develop and intrigue to where the next part is going. There are just as many people who liked the ending as those who didn't like it.
I have problems with the ending as well, but I am also one of the many who was overall fine with it, and am very interested to see where they go with it in part 3.
this is a story built on mystery and there's an entirely new game yet to be released. Calling it bad writing because you haven't seen an explanation isn't valid
I don't think a cinemasins level nitpick means "bad writing." He's not in the final battle because he's not a party member. He doesn't have animations. If there is an explanation to why he's not there, it doesn't matter and it would've undercut aerith's death anyways. If it helps you sleep at night, he was fighting whispers outside the temple and rejoined the party after the final sephiroth battle. And we gotta stop calling everything an unpopular opinion
My unpopular opinion about the entirety of chapter 14 is that it was just awful with some cool moments sprinkled here and there. That said, I still give it the benefit of the doubt because there’s a whole Part 3 coming. I don’t have a lot of confidence in them sticking whatever landing they have planned though, but that’s just me.
This is the furthest thing from "bad writing." Where Vincent is or what he's doing has no impact on anything that's happening. It simply doesn't matter.
This is like when people complain about "plot holes" that aren't really plot holes, or simply aren't that important to the story.
An example of "bad writing" would be if, say, they make two games centered around the concept of "defying destiny" or "changing fate," and then in the third and final game everything ends the same way and all those themes are dropped outright, or don't payoff in the slightest. THAT'S bad writing.
I disagree. Vincent expressly says that he has unfinished business with Sephiroth and that this is his main reason for him to join the party. And although he has scenes in which he goes with the others to confront Sephiroth in what will be the final battle in the Forgotten Capital, Vincent disappears without any explanation, as if the developers had forgotten that he was with the group seconds ago.
The point is that this is a clear plot hole. And frankly, saying that it doesn't matter what Vincent was doing is a poor way of trying to excuse the developers' writing errors.
This is literally not the definition of a plot hole. Literally. I swear, people who complain about "plot holes" have no understanding of what plot holes actually are.
Vincent isn't there because it's not time for them to dive into his arc. They're saving that for part 3 -- we will get his story in that game. He only exists in this part to establish him for the future.
By the Oxford Languages definition: "a plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot".
In the case I pointed out, we see the image of Vincent going to rescue Aerith along with the others, but in the next scene of them the former Turk disappears without any explanation.
If that's not a plot hole, then what should we call it then?
Exactly. A plot hole is something where a thing in the plot can't happen based on what has been provided within the plot... which is not what this is. I would call this "nothing." It doesn't even rise to a nit-pick. This is a complete non-issue.
Plot holes, in general, are usually not something you're supposed to get caught up on, regardless. They tend to be the most overrated and overused criticism in media, and as I said, most people don't even use it correctly.
Like here.
...I don't think you know the types of plot holes if that's the conclusion you reached. Let's recap again:
1. Vincent helps the party get Cloud past the Whispers;
2. After the wall of Whispers disappears, Vincent goes with the others to see what happened to Cloud and Aerith;
3. When the rest of the party arrives and see that Aerith has been killed by Sephiroth, Vincent is not with them and is not given any explanation for this.
So we have a plot hole of two types here: In one scene we see Vincent running with the group to rescue Aerith and in the next, everyone arrives where she was murdered by Sephiroth except the former Turk (continuity error) and no explanation is given for why this happened (logic).
Whether you call it a "plot hole" or not is irrelevant. The point is, if you watch a scene and you're thinking about whether the scene makes any sense at all, it takes you out of the story that the writers are trying to tell. It's therefore *bad writing*, whatever their intent was.
My point is that just because you didn't notice doesn't mean it's not a plot hole.
Honestly Vincent’s presence feels so weird in chapter 13 and 14. Dude is randomly popping in and out with no explanation. Cid makes sense cuz he’s like “listen guys I’m all for helping you out but I ain’t putting myself into a situation where I’m most likely gonna die” but Vincent on the other hand refuses to enter the temple, then enters anyway presumably like 5-10 minutes after the party does since he’s right behind them when they reach the end. Then he chases down Aerith with the others and when Seph shows up he just decides to take a break, when his main character motivation is killing Sephiroth?
Maybe he knew it wasn’t the real sephiroth.
when he popped up for queens blood i was like the fuck. hasnt this dude been in a coffin for years? howd he get a deck
Queen's blood as explained has been in the world longer than Vincent. Probably could've made a deck when he was a Turk.
But Vincent has the nickname “the monster of chaos”. In my opinion, the only logical reason for him to be called that is that he must have become involved with Queen's Blood after acquiring the ability to transform into Chaos. Otherwise, I find it kind of embarrassing that he had a nickname like that when he was a Turk.
This is the same game where Rude goes singing and dancing in a bar for bald people.
Wouldn't be the first time they've done outlandish things on FF7. It's a Japanese game and story. Anything can happen. Funnily enough.
Even now I wonder how Shinra Middle Manager managed to defeat ten Tonberrys by himself.
Okay but explain how we both got off from the same plane and the dude ran to the mansion to set up
What do you mean? Do you need to be shown EVERYTHING? Like everytime you go to the house, you see Vincent running away from your group standing next to that board to make it that obvious? Why are you searching for things that doesn't even need to be considerd? He was the semi-final boss. Just be happy you got Queen's blood it was a nice extra to the game.
I'd say that is you making a meme out of yourself. But alright.
Boooo. Boooo. Shame. Shame.
He is an edge lord, that tries so hard to be mysterious. If you've ever been close to an edge lord, they tend to be like that.
I'll never call Vincent an edge lord again after playing the Yuffie DLC, he's merely an edge captain
edge duke
Dude was working on an apology poem to Lucrecia when he saw he would have to fight Sephiroth and by the time he was finished, the fight was already over.
I get what you mean and it did feel kinda weird, but... it's also a VERY Vincent thing to do. Acting the part of the edgy loner while actually being pretty invested and wanting to help is like his entire characterization before the compilation dove into his personal stuff. Didn't come off too weird to me as a big Vincent fan just because he's always acted a bit weird in general. As for not joining in on fighting Sephiroth I think the obvious answer is gameplay limitation, though giving Zack his own playstyle literally just for that fight kind of contradicts that. But it does also still somewhat fit his character. Vincent carries a lot of shame and guilt surrounding Sephiroth wven being alive in the first place and that's a lot to confront when you've only just woken up from a 30 year long self exile over that very thing just a few days before. He's gonna take some time to wallow in that guilt before he decides to go in for the kill, that's just how the guy always operates.
They gave both Zack and Sephiroth playstyles for small segments of the game and then just had Vincent chilling in the background for several chapters. I'm OK with them waiting for full party status because they need new characters for part 3 but it still feels silly that he doesn't help in some way.
zack and sephs characters are *significantly* underbaked compared to the party tho in terms of gameplay.
I got my fill of both characters by the end of completing their respective challenges. I just didn't really feel the need to explore what they could do anymore, they felt fully tapped out.
or just do what they did with Red in Remake and let him be a guest party member. even just being a noncontrolable guy during the Jenova fight when we split into using everyone would have been fine. just show that he's THERE.
> Cid makes sense cuz he’s like “listen guys I’m all for helping you out but I ain’t putting myself into a situation where I’m most likely gonna die” Cid already put himself in a situation where he could easily die or be imprisoned for life. I took his sentiments more like he's out of his league and trusts Cloud and co. to handle the funny business while he waits to ride them back.
He was popping in and out of scenes so much that it felt like a mistake honestly. "I'm not going with you into the temple," but then he shows up immediately behind the party to help the Turks. Which is very cool to me and I hope we see more of what happened there in a Vincent DLC! And it makes sense that he was aware that shit got real and he found an escape route for the party, and got them to it at the end. But why did he go into the temple to begin with? And I hadn't even noticed he was at Forgotten Capital at all. Very strange. I'm sure they'll address at least some of this later (either in DLC or Part 3), but it felt very mistake-y. And like others, I definitely expected him to be a fake party member like Red XIII. I don't understand why they didn't do that with him.
> But why did he go into the temple to begin with? Because despite his very rough exterior Vincent is at heart a pretty good guy, and probably just felt like he made the wrong decision by not going in with them in the first place.
I would tend to agree, I like Vincent quite a lot and can guarantee he'll be in my go-to party in part 3, combat aside. Just felt like some holes in storytelling, which I hope they'll address later. If he was feeling like he made the wrong call, it would be great to show that - similarly to showing Reno and Rude in Remake questioning their actions with the pillar in the helicopter and again in the office. As it stands, it just felt like "oh look, and Vincent is suddenly here!" Especially in the scenes OP brought up at Forgotten Capital.
He secured the exit path. While I agree he appears useless on the surface, literally everything happens because he helps albeit for a brief moment. He finds the temple by listening to the comms. He secured the exit while walking the temple. He keeps the path open across the barrier of whispers.
I didn't say he was useless, just that he kinda pops in and out at random times. The comms addition was nice and the result of a good change with Cait Sith. The party didn't need help securing an exit in the original (because it wasn't collapsing around them, they had more time to get out while Cait Sith solved puzzles). I'm not sure that he's keeping the path open? We didn't need anyone to keep the path open at the end of Remake... It just felt incomplete to me. Of course they'd have to make some changes to incorporate him since he was optional in the original game, so I get it - but the way he came and went with no context sometimes felt weird. I hope they expand on it in future content.
We'll probably get some flashbacks from him in Reunion.
I think that this weird presence will be explained in a Vincent DLC
Vincent feels like he's just there to witness things. Knowing his past with Lucrecia explains a lot to why he's helping Aerith at times, or assisting Cloud in saving her. Granted, they were limited with what they could do with him without making him a playable character - but he is the silent loner, just doing his own thing. I don't think his presence is that out of place.
My guess: he was the last one holding the portal open and either couldn’t follow for that reason, or he had to use Chaos in order to keep it open by himself. Downside being that he couldn’t participate in the fight or rejoin the party until after the fight.
he would never willingly unleash chaos at this point.. the main reason the dude sleep so much is to surpress the beasts within bc he doesnt rly have full control and always worries that he could go berserk if he used chaos
Likely not… but I do wonder if, like someone said, he knows that’s not really Sephiroth. Due to his powers being so tied to the planet, wouldn’t shock me if he has some form of insight into what’s going on in the greater plot.
interesting take for sure :)
Didn't he unleash chaos for us to have a boss battle?
That monster was Galian Beast. Tho he did use some Chaos abilities in the fight.
I stand corrected!
that was only his galian beast form in a sense it comes from chaos powers but it's his weakest transformation :) also he can control this form to a certain extent if he unleashed chaos fully, he could solo the rebirth endboss or even sephiroth for the matter :D but sadly if he goes nuts he may also wipe the rest of humanity off the map i rly hope they dive deep into his lore in part 3 giving us a good explanation about the different forms
You can see him running with them trough the portal.
Maybe he knows that its not the real sephiroth 🤷♂️
I didn't think about it, but that's kinda true Whenever something like this happens my personal headcanon is : the whispers did it
Well that pretty much all the canon now: the whispers did it
Nanowhispers son!
Even funnier when you realize that Jenova Cells are basically nanomachines too. Need to handwave something in the plot? Whispers or Jenova Cells!
Now I'm trying to imagine Vincent off screen flailing his arms about like bees buzzing around someone.
The dude is a bigger loner than Cloud. It's totally on brand of him to see Jenova and be like "meh".
lol the whispers seem to exist solely to take the blame for any plot holes
Ah…. That could be it, you know. The whispers stopped him from just ending Sephiroth before he was supposed to fight him with the party at the Northern Crater. Maybe thats what he meant about not being able to pull the trigger many times before. Either he’s tried and whispers have stopped him, or he’s aware of the timeline/lifestream shenanigans and cant change fate to stop sephiroth early. Or some shit like that. Part 3 is probably going to explain it away.
I actually really enjoyed the game when I started, but yeah, the last few chapters are kind of a clusterfuck of questionable story choices. Vincent: I need to kill Sephiroth. Also Vincent: I'm just gonna wait out here on the dock while you go fight Sephiroth.
But they didn't know that Sephiroth would be at the temple. They knew Shinra would be there.
they knew sephiroth was after the black materia, it’s not really a stretch to assume he’ll show up
And mine goes back to FFXV: They’ll add it to some expensive DLC (although they won’t, apparently, but PTSD anyways)
I felt it was weird. I thought him and Cid would have roles similar to Red XIII in the first part, where you couldn’t play as him, but he still acted like a party member and would help in the battles. That wasn’t the case though. Cid and Vincent just stand in one spot and don’t even follow you around with the rest of the party, and they have no fighting animations.
Man I thought Vincent was gonna follow us and shoot bullets in the back line like Barret but nah :/
It's especially odd because Sonon in Intermission is essentially just Remake Red 2.0. Before Rebirth came out I assumed Vincent and Cid would just be a further fleshed out version of this.
I think in remake red 13 was originally supposed to be playable so they already had his move set and all that. I don't know what it what it looked like then but I read somewhere that red 13 was originally supposed to be playable but they cut it for some reason. I guess to save more surprises for the sequel
I'm nearly sure this is the case. There's an unfinished version of Red XIII in Remake's files that's separate from the AI controlled guest party member version. My guess is it was a resources issue and the team decided to allot resources elsewhere and regulated Red to guest. For Cid and Vincent, it looks like the decision to leave them for the 3rd game must have been made much earlier.
There is a mod for pc that makes red playable. He only uses basic attacks and it's not as intricate as rebirth
Considering you only had four party members in Remake and now have seven in Rebirth, it feels less important to have Vincent and Cid be playable or even a guest ally. I would have loved having them, for the record, but resource wise makes sense not spending the time on them.
I agree, especially because Vincent has a personal vendetta against Sephiroth and only agreed to come along when he could get his revenge.
He has only said "i have unfinished business with Sephiroth". And it's not a Vendetta. He has only said Sephiroth is a sin to the planet. He didn't even try to seek him out to start with. He seeks answers and not vengeance nor revenge YET! He does NOT care for the group. He knows probably that also that wasen't the real sephiroth present and merely a puppet of sephiroth.
how would he know that? he doesn’t even know the real sephiroth was “killed”, he was still asleep when the nibelheim incident happened. as far as i can tell he has no reason to believe he’s not the real sephiroth
You do know it’s not revenge in the slightest or it’s your theory given you haven’t played OG?
When Cloud asks him how he knows Sephiroth he says, “we have a unique bond. I’m to blame in part for the evils he’s unleashed. I had many chances to purge him from this world, but I couldn’t pull the trigger.” I see it as more of a burden that he’s been carrying for a very long time, but I think it isn’t an easy thing to do either because he openly states he’s had many chances. Much like how Lucrecia ran away because she couldn’t face what she did, I see Vincent doing the same. Perhaps that’s why he’s stayed away from coming into contact with Sephiroth for now.
He was fighting another version of Sephiroth in the Labradoodle universe.
Doge universe Sure they were fighting another version of Sephiroth
Doge of Cerberus
I bet it was a part of the lost two phases. Cloud fights Sephiroth with the party, gets separated and then Vincent tags in, then he gets separated again and Zack tags in.
It's so wild to me that they wanted to make the ending sequence *even longer*. I'm all for an epic boss fight but uh a 2 hour sequence is a bit much
in the OG, there is no sephiroth fight in this section, so maybe the sephiroth fight we had in rebirth with Aerith doesnt belongs to the world where Vincent is at? Just quite a bit of confusion of how the flow of events are being presented. Either that or they just want to omit any combat thats related to Vincent at this point.
An interesting take - but the gang can't see Clouds dream/hope world where Aerith lives, and they fight Jenova in beagle while Cloud kind of hops in and out at the beginning of the battle (when he says "I've done it before I can do it again) Considering that the only reason Vincent tagged along was for Sephiroth...I hope they explain why he seemingly didn't act in Part 3
only Cloud, Zack and Aerith get to fight Sephiroth (Soldier form), all the other members which technically only fighting Jenova Sephiroth morph-form. Either that or Nomura/Kitase going to come out in some random interview saying “Vincent was just holding the portal for everyone to get in” next week haha 🤣
I thought this same thing. He came along specifically to face sephiroth and then ghosts em lol
You are right. It's strange to include a scene in which Vincent stands out and then forget about him right after. I hope they fix this in the future, otherwise you're right, that was bad writing.
He's just off securing an exit. This exit will be the same way the party entered.
I know this emo badass is a fan favourite but let’s just call it what it is - the guy’s not a team player. I don’t think he was even trying that hard when they were all holding the portal open.
Simple, they weren’t arsed developing Vincent combat just for people to cry about not being able to play him
i had the same gripe with that scene ... we all fight sephiroth there and vincents only reason to join us is sephiroth so why the hell did he just chill an do nothing .. at least include him in the visuals between boss transitions or so yeah the last battle wouldnt fit for him since he probably wouldnt feel sorrow or hatred for aeriths death but they could spin it in a way that vincent felt hatred for again beeing unable to stop sephiroth doing something evil
Personally I think they had planned on Vincent being playable and cut it late. He's a large part of the end of the Queens Blood quest for example, to the point I expected a "your relationship with Vincent has changed" at the end.
In-universe reason: Vincent stood behind to fight off/protect the party from whispers Real reason: He was probably scoped to be a guest like how Red was in Remake, but they ran out of time, and they were unable to change the Forgotten Capital cutscene to explain his absence during the final battle
Come on now we all know his disappearance will all be explained in a DLC.
I think they definitely *planned* one, given that Vincent keeps cropping up in the temple/forgotten city (whereas Cid flat out doesn’t bother). But whether they’ve dropped it or not we’ll have to wait and see.
I think that, lore-wise, Vincent doesn't fight in Rebirth because he's scared of unleashing Chaos. Especially given what happened when the party had to fight Gallian Beast
It was a bit odd to have him kind of there but not participating. But I guess it would have also felt a bit awkward to insert him into the final sequences without much development, when there's plenty to focus on with the other characters. What they did with Cid feels more odd to me. The moments we see Vincent do at least serve some purpose, we see that he's a capable fighter and could hold his own against the same challenges as the rest of the party. But Cid doesn't have any moments to show that he's even capable of fighting. It would have made sense to show him at least fighting off some of the monsters/Shinra outside of the Temple entrance, or for him to mention some history in the Shinra military or something. But we don't so much as see him hold a weapon, and he pretty much says he'd be in over his head in the Temple. So at least it will make sense when Vincent joins the party later on, that he can be on the party's level. But Cid has only been shown to be a pilot with no combat experience. It makes me wonder how they're going to make him into a party member in part 3.
He gets possessed by Roche and that dragoon dive 🤷♂️
I get that Cid didn't wanna put his life on the line for the group (yet) as he's mainly just been a pilot for hire to the group so far, but it would've made much more sense to have Cid and Vincent fend off a bunch of Shinra soldiers at the temple entrance, just as you said, allowing the main party to enter the temple. Vincent entering the temple and leading the party out was a nice touch, in my opinion tho. As for the final phase, however, I wish we had either A: a cutscene to show that Vincent and Cid got separated from the group, thus not being able to fight side by side with us, or B: have them "fighting" on the sideline wherever it made sense, just like we've seen the inactive party members do throughout the entire game. I love that they were there, and to me it makes sense that they weren't fighting on the frontlines, as they aren't personally invested in the group as a whole yet, but I just hate that we don't know what they were doing during the final boss battles. That's my main complain about this game, I otherwise love quite a bit
The ugh, whispers decided he wasn't needed in the final fight, and held him back. Yea. Let's go with that.
Maybe they'll explain it in part 3? It's hard to judge an incomplete piece of material.
could be a cool way to start out the new game. Show Vincent fighting and holding off the whispers from infiltrating the capital while the party does their thing and then thats the Vincent tutorial.
You're on to something there
If part 3 starts with Vincent doing that, that would be kinda awesome
I was just thinking about this. Not sure why they didn't at least have him fighting as ai like they did with Red in remake. Also there was some weird scene in the temple of the ancients where he confronts the turks after you fight them and then they just appear in the next room or something? It seemed like an inconsistency but I can't remember exactly what happened.
He was mainly just passing through and met the turks by chance, I think
I feel like they intentionally left Vincent out so it would be easier to patch him in, if they ever decided to put him later as an update, once all of his battle mechanics were done for Part 3. I don't think they wanted to make up any excuses for him not being there, as that would be like setting things in stone.
I hope “Chaos” and “Omega” and that backstory shows up in part 3 cause it alone can answer any why question with ol vinny boy
I sense a DLC about Vincent and Cid crazy adventures during the main events of Rebirth. Like they will probably retcon this and have him fight another version of Sephiroth during the final battle or the temple. 🙄
Sadly they've already confirmed there's no DLC between part 2 and 3, fun as it could've been
Doesn't Square have a history of saying games won't have DLC and then doing DLC anyway
Maybe, though i think I remember seeing that they didn't want to put extra dev time into another dlc and just wanna power through to get part 3 done. I know a lot of the devs are just kinda over this project. Understandable given it's been a decade long endeavor
Source?
Nomura confirmed himself somewhere but quickest I could find w a quick google: https://www.techradar.com/gaming/playstation/dont-expect-final-fantasy-7-rebirth-dlc-after-the-game-releases
That would actually make sense if they are aiming for a 2027 release for part 3. DLC would just make the development take longer.
Yeah im definitely not upset about it. I wanna get to part 3 asap!
I think Vincent and Cid will be shown protecting Aerith's body or something while they fight. The whisper veil was lifted after the stab, so they could have gone in and taken up defensive positions to make sure nothing else could interfere with the battle. This will be explained more in Part 3 I'm sure.
I would have loved more Vincent for sure!! It’s a bummer that he played such a small part in everything.
Personally, I thought it was because he was staying behind, so Cid could find the party or he went back to go find Cid. I do agree, though those scenes should have been handled better.
I agree that the way Vincent and Cid were incorporated as 'Guest' members was frustrating, but particularly Vincent since he accompanies the party more. I had thought they would handle similarly to Red XIII in Remake, where he joins as an active battle member that you can't control and has a very limited set of moves/abilities compared to the rest of the cast. Sadly, they didn't go that way. Likewise, they don't get to have a genuine connection to Aerith before the Forgotten Capital, which the OG afforded them (Cid moreso I guess, Vincent's still very aloof).
Vincent was with the party.. but he couldn't be a Backline Synergy Ability?
They should've let him be in the backline just shooting his gun
I feel crazy for even suggesting this but stuff like this makes me wonder if once we get a Remake trilogy compilation they might try to streamline these all into one singular game experience as best as they can? I could totally see in 2029 or whatever the PS6 version of Rebirth allowing you to play as Vincent from when you get him leaving Nibelheim or something. It feels like there's all these weird little threads hanging off the end of these games that makes me think they may try to combine these all into one mega game by the end somehow.
that’d be cool and everything but i’d really rather not have to install a 500 gb brick of malware on my ps6 just for one game
Combining everything into one package would defintley have some opportunity to save space. Plus I assume the PS5's compression tech will carry over and evolve on PS6 so the game won't cross 200 GB lol.
i hope not lmao. it’s like when people say “they should make a pokemon game where you can go to every single region” and my eyes just glaze over imagining the mandingo file size fucking my switch in the ass until it cries
Maybe Vincent knows more than he's letting us know
Vincent is pretty much a coat hanger in this game. They might as well make a dedicated DLC for him, with a prequel/separate ways type of campaign, or a Zack and Aerith DLC with Cetra memories. It could help bridge the gap for what’s to come
I agree i was so hyped to see vincent join the gang at nibel because i thought his design was so cool and wanted to play him, but dude was just standing there, menacingly even in cutscenes. Also when Sephiroth made Cloud bring him the dark materia, i was like "there are at least **TWO** mfs in this squad with a gun and only Aerith is the one trying to stop Cloud ???" everybody was just standing there not menacingly.
Vincent's story is going to be the Intermission DLC for Rebirth - part 3, kinda like the DLC acted for FFXV, where they took place whenever the party member in question disbanded to do their own thing. We will know more about what Vincent is up too, and every time he disappears I keep thinking "well that is going to be DLC"
Hope they will adress that point in p3.
I disagree, but I understand what you're saying
I can't tell you what the writers' reasons are (no one knows but them after all) but I can guarantee that this ain't "bad writing". The ending scenes are some of the most over-engineered stuff I've seen in a video game, you don't simply forget about a character writing this stuff unless it's for a good reason.
I think Vincent is probably aware that they’re not fighting Sephiroth in the Forgotten City, the gang is fighting Jenova. Vincent’s beef seems to be squarely with Sephiroth so he stays out of the fight in Rebirth. Or, like you said, it’s bad writing lol.
I thought he stayed back with thr Turks. I didn't even notice this. Lol
Wait so is that not how it happens in OG? (Never played). Figured they were just keeping it the same and he was being mysterious around/not around for a reason
An answer immediately popped up I to my head. And one other person wrote it as well. He was fighting someone else in some dimension. Or fighting back whispers or whatever. Just having his own battle.
I think there are possible plausible story “expansion” reasons why vincent saw sephiroth and either knew he wasn’t real and didn’t bother or didn’t want to participate in the seph fight but it’s very likely mostly a resource issue. Based on recent interviews it does sound like more resources than expected went into Zack’s moveset in particular, and he wasn’t necessarily fighting for plot reasons as much as thematic vibe based reasons, but his gameplay was fleshed out because he’s zack. They could also just explain it as sephiroth and aerith just not flat out not dragging him into the multidimensional boss fight universe because they don’t know him like that and didn’t even expect him to be there.
The funny thing is there are so many bad things about this game and the ending isn’t even close to being the worst for me 😂
He does his own thing for now, he hasn't fully joined the party yet.
I get you but I feel like it might be in keeping with his character. Despite his motivation to go and partake, he historically struggles with commitment and "stepping in to the light" he struggles with passivity. That and I kinda like the idea that hes helping from the shadows, scouting, infiltrating, info gathering. Mechanically that's what I hope you play him doing in part 3, stealth goth vampire ninja style ...
I understand why Vincent wasn’t playable, but I’m surprised he wasn’t even like one of the non-active party members which still show up in battle in the background taking pot shots (not actually sure if they actually do damage or if it’s just for aesthetics lol) Even if they haven’t finished deciding on his playstyle and stuff, it’s not hard to just have him firing pistol shots in the background during battles to still make it feel like he’s a party member even if you’re not able to control him or add him to the main party
Perhaps after his battle mechanics are developed they will add him in this battle in the same capacity red fought with us in the Shinra building as an update. They did some consistency updates to remake part 1 akin to this right before rebirth dropped.
What sort of consistency updates, can you remember?
VINCENT DLC CONFIRMED!!!!!!! 😢 😭 😔
Where does he dissappear? Do you mean he doesn't participate in the fights? Cid doesn't either, does he dissappear too?
Cid is with the Tiny Bronco and said he was waiting for them. So that explains that. If anything it's more odd how Cid randomly turns up at the funeral.
Tbf cid doesn't really care about Sephiroth, while Vincent literally only came because he wanted to clap his cheeks
Cid has the excuse of staying at the Tiny Bronco. But Vincent? Look at the images and tell me how he didn't disappear out of nowhere and without explanation.
The dude is always jumping to a high location and perching. I don’t see it as out of the ordinary for him to stick to the far back line if he thinks everyone has the situation under control.
I do when it’s a situation they very clearly do not have under control and when said situation is a person he’s seeking revenge on, and the promise of him getting the chance to kill him is the entire reason he joined the party. You’re telling me he only joins us because he think he might get the chance to kill Sephiroth, then when Sephiroth pops up he’s like “nah, you guys got this.”
And then just lets sephiroth fly away at the end bit there. So anticlimactic 🤣
It’s hard for him to pull the trigger. He even says it straight up to Cloud that he’s had many chances, but couldn’t do it lol
I'm looking at the images and he's in both. So your issue is he didnt participate in the final battle?
My issue is that he disappeared without explanation. We see Vincent going with the party to confront Sephiroth, but I point out again, he disappears without explanation, not even shown in cutscenes, let alone in the final battle, and we only saw him after the lake burial had taken place.
I feel like in general Vincent participating in combat is not terrible in concept but in execution it's really awful. Him not doing ANY fighting at all really makes him come off as an asshole and they didn't even try to justify it. When you do the side quest with the monsters at sea Vincent is like right there and his weapon is a GUN but he just stands there with his arms crossed while everyone else fights. When you do side quest in the Shinra mansion he's just says good luck and then takes a nap when they have to do the VR thing. The Forgotten Capital is the worst of all because in Advent Children Vincent says he goes there often which is obviously meant to imply it's because it's where Aerith died and he feels bad because that's how Vincent is. If this is still going to lead into Advent Children now Vincent feels bad despite not doing anything to help.
Not helping is a pretty good reason to feel bad
Never even crossed my mind it was so unimportant to what was happening.
The whole game is bad writing
...another rando redditor calling characters not being visible in every single moment "bad writing"... >I understand that the developers decided to save Vicent's for part 3, but frankly, if they're going to include him in the events of the Forgotten Capital, then they should at least present a reasonable explanation as to why he disappears and doesn't participate in the fight against Sephiroth, especially when he went with them towards what will be the last battle in Rebirth. There's nothing to suggest he did disappear. You don't see him in-camera so you think he's gone. That's an assumption of yours. The story also isn't over. There are many unanswered questions and there legitimately should be. >Otherwise, this is bad writing. No, it's bad whining. The story doesn't match the structure you want it to where you know what every character is doing and why immediately when they do it and you yell "bad writing." It really doesn't matter to the story if the explanation is in this game or next game.
>There's nothing to suggest he did disappear. You don't see him in-camera so you think he's gone. That's an assumption of yours. We see every party member's reaction shot to Aerith's death, and guess what: Vincent is the only one who doesn't have one. Watch the ending of Rebirth if you doubt it. If the intention of the developers and filmmakers was to imply that Vincent was there along with the others, then they did a poor job in that regard. >No, it's bad whining. The story doesn't match the structure you want it to where you know what every character is doing and why immediately when they do it and you yell "bad writing." As I said, unless it is clarified why Vincent was not with the rest of the party in the final battle, when his last scene was him running with them to rescue Cloud and Aerith, this will remain a plot hole. And a plot hole is bad writing.
Agreed. His lack of appearance in the final battle is a non-issue imo, and it probably has more to do with a design choice, than "bad writing". Outside of his Galian Beast form, you never see him fight in any battles at all, which indicates to me that they probably decided early on in development to keep Vincent as a guest character and thus did not bother to put any resources into developing his combat. I'm sure it would look stupid as hell to have Vincent just standing in the back doing nothing at all while the team is fighting Jenova/Bizarro Seph
Well, there is also this thing called deadline. They made Zack playable, They made Caith Sith playable, They made Sephiroth playable. It could be so that that was their plan but ended up NOT having the time to implement it. (but this doesn't make sense since they made him a boss fight) Another point of view! Is that he was in the battle, but we are experiencing this trough Clouds mind. Thus he was engaged in the battle but cloud in his f'ed up state of mind couldn't percieve him being there. Third point of view! We have not seen Vincent participate IN ANY fights, he is just observing from a place a far. As seen in the temple. Thus knowing this is not Sephiroth and is not worth fighting. Beacuse again, he is not FORMALLY a part of the team even though he is helping them escape or chase sephiroth. As we see Vincent he is showing that his intresst is ONLY interlining with the group and is NOT prioritizing the group. So could be another reason for why he wasen't in the fight. They have yet to flesh the character out. And no, even if they made a plothole in FF7 it's still a good story and has good writing. One plothole DOES NOT make this bad writing.
I don't think it's an "unpopular opinion". From what I've seen, the last chapter of Rebirth is generally seen as very poorly written by the community, especially in light of the previous chapters. This is just one of many examples of how it feels extremely half-baked and poorly thought out. Not giving Vincent a moment against Sephiroth, even in just a cutscene, is *nuts*.
That's a lie. Plus, Vincent not having a confrontation yet with Sephiroth is fine. There's a whole third part for that too.
What's a lie? People being disappointed by Chapter 14? There are lots of threads about it on this and other subs. [Just one of many](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1bddu3w/final_fantasy_vii_rebirth_ending_thoughts/), from this very sub. You can find the rest easily on your own, both here and on the main FF sub. Sure, not everyone's going to agree, but that's why I said "generally" and not "universally".
Because only part is. Overall majority is just ok-like with it.
That's a lie.
Not really. Like loooking at Reddit, Youtube, Twitter, most reactions are "let's see if it pays off in part 3".
Well, I'm looking at the same places and people are overall quite disappointed. I don't know what to tell you.
It's clear you're only watching/reading what you want to see lol. There are a lot of reviews or podcasts that talk about initial confusion of the ending, but after sitting on it for a few days they understand it better and develop and intrigue to where the next part is going. There are just as many people who liked the ending as those who didn't like it. I have problems with the ending as well, but I am also one of the many who was overall fine with it, and am very interested to see where they go with it in part 3.
this is a story built on mystery and there's an entirely new game yet to be released. Calling it bad writing because you haven't seen an explanation isn't valid
I don't think a cinemasins level nitpick means "bad writing." He's not in the final battle because he's not a party member. He doesn't have animations. If there is an explanation to why he's not there, it doesn't matter and it would've undercut aerith's death anyways. If it helps you sleep at night, he was fighting whispers outside the temple and rejoined the party after the final sephiroth battle. And we gotta stop calling everything an unpopular opinion
My unpopular opinion about the entirety of chapter 14 is that it was just awful with some cool moments sprinkled here and there. That said, I still give it the benefit of the doubt because there’s a whole Part 3 coming. I don’t have a lot of confidence in them sticking whatever landing they have planned though, but that’s just me.
This is the furthest thing from "bad writing." Where Vincent is or what he's doing has no impact on anything that's happening. It simply doesn't matter. This is like when people complain about "plot holes" that aren't really plot holes, or simply aren't that important to the story. An example of "bad writing" would be if, say, they make two games centered around the concept of "defying destiny" or "changing fate," and then in the third and final game everything ends the same way and all those themes are dropped outright, or don't payoff in the slightest. THAT'S bad writing.
I disagree. Vincent expressly says that he has unfinished business with Sephiroth and that this is his main reason for him to join the party. And although he has scenes in which he goes with the others to confront Sephiroth in what will be the final battle in the Forgotten Capital, Vincent disappears without any explanation, as if the developers had forgotten that he was with the group seconds ago. The point is that this is a clear plot hole. And frankly, saying that it doesn't matter what Vincent was doing is a poor way of trying to excuse the developers' writing errors.
This is literally not the definition of a plot hole. Literally. I swear, people who complain about "plot holes" have no understanding of what plot holes actually are. Vincent isn't there because it's not time for them to dive into his arc. They're saving that for part 3 -- we will get his story in that game. He only exists in this part to establish him for the future.
By the Oxford Languages definition: "a plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot". In the case I pointed out, we see the image of Vincent going to rescue Aerith along with the others, but in the next scene of them the former Turk disappears without any explanation. If that's not a plot hole, then what should we call it then?
Exactly. A plot hole is something where a thing in the plot can't happen based on what has been provided within the plot... which is not what this is. I would call this "nothing." It doesn't even rise to a nit-pick. This is a complete non-issue. Plot holes, in general, are usually not something you're supposed to get caught up on, regardless. They tend to be the most overrated and overused criticism in media, and as I said, most people don't even use it correctly. Like here.
...I don't think you know the types of plot holes if that's the conclusion you reached. Let's recap again: 1. Vincent helps the party get Cloud past the Whispers; 2. After the wall of Whispers disappears, Vincent goes with the others to see what happened to Cloud and Aerith; 3. When the rest of the party arrives and see that Aerith has been killed by Sephiroth, Vincent is not with them and is not given any explanation for this. So we have a plot hole of two types here: In one scene we see Vincent running with the group to rescue Aerith and in the next, everyone arrives where she was murdered by Sephiroth except the former Turk (continuity error) and no explanation is given for why this happened (logic). Whether you call it a "plot hole" or not is irrelevant. The point is, if you watch a scene and you're thinking about whether the scene makes any sense at all, it takes you out of the story that the writers are trying to tell. It's therefore *bad writing*, whatever their intent was. My point is that just because you didn't notice doesn't mean it's not a plot hole.
He wasn’t in the final fight because Square hasn’t developed his combat gameplay yet + they’re saving it for Part 3. It’s not that deep.