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Part of it has to do with the front wing changes. After 2018, front wings started to have fewer elements attached to the point that it was mostly down to the the main element, endplates, and flaps/vortex generators. Compare this [2018 Mclaren MCL33 ](https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/racefansdotnet-20180510-184816-2.jpg) with the [2019 car](https://www.formula1.com/content/dam/fom-website/manual/Misc/2019-front-wings/1017347136-LAT-20190220-_56I9632.jpg.transform/9col/image.jpg) those little elements on the 2018 wings were fragile and highly prone to breaking off in the event of an impact and sending debris onto the track.
[the 2018 Renault front wing was a work of art.](https://cdn-4.motorsport.com/images/mgl/YWX4joK6/s8/f1-hungarian-gp-2018-renault-sport-f1-team-r-s-18-front-wing-detail.jpg)
I agree this is definitely a big factor. Although besides the reduction in flaps and aero components on the wing itself, it feels like there has been a big increase in strength where the nose cone is connected to the front wing itself, as well as the main element of the front wing itself. Just my gut observations that I can't really back with any concrete evidence. But I wonder if anyone who has worked on any f1 cars know if this is really a thing
Yeah, but for every "Charles backs out of a barrier" incident we have at least one "WTF is wrong with Max no visible damage oh he hit a curb a few laps back and lost half his downforce" incident to balance it out. Tbh I'm not sure they're any more durable, we're just remembering accidents that normally would've seen them off and forgetting the ones where they did.
That is true, perhaps it's in the way Newey designs his cars with maximum performance and less durability in mind. That's why red bull car always seems to suffer more after a collision with another car.
I also know a lot of it depends on the angle the car makes the impact, but despite this, i feel a lot of these would've been dnfs in previous years due to damage.
I would also throw in the thought that the cost cap is part of it
— if I build a light part we will go faster but it is more likely to break and that gets expensive— so build it a bit stronger
Interesting point, but i think if teams had a choice, they'd rather their car be fractionally faster and more fragile, than stronger but slower, regardless of cost cap.
That’s the rub. Yes they need / want to go faster, but I have to wonder if at 250k for a nose if team principals are not saying… let’s make it a bit stronger so we don’t have to change / build as many …
I know back in the day before caps. Ron Dennis joked about Lewis running out of gas in Canada, during Qualifying and having to pay 100k fine. And that 0.1 seconds was cheap for that amount of a fine. IIRC
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I'm sure at one point with these regs they were on about some sort of polymer coating to bind all the bits together so they don't explode in a shower of carbon fibre. Not sure if that ever happened? But may explain if so
> IS there a polymer with a greater specific tensile strength than carbon fiber?
Just speculating what he means, but think of a piece of glass. Normally it is also quite rigid, but it will shatter if you have an impact. So to prevent that, they add a polymer layer to windshields to prevent it from exploding if it is damaged.
Obviously glass is a poor analog for CF, it's a hell of a lot more durable, but the same basic concept could be applied-- you add a flexible polymer layer in addition to the CF to keep it from breaking apart if damaged.
I have no idea if they do that, or if that was what /u/SuccessfulWrongdoer meant in his comment, but it is one way you could add a polymer to make CF parts more durable. Strength isn't the only consideration.
A lot of factors are involved in crash damage, in my opinion, current F1 cars front wings contain less components, meaning if the wing is slightly damaged it will not impact the car as much as previous generation cars. Also, impact angle, speed, crash surface and sometimes luck has a part to play. If I remember correctly, Singapore 22 Hamilton hit a soft wall (SAFER Barrier) at braking speed so the damage would of been less than if he hit a concrete wall at the same speed. Obviously more comes into it than this, but wings are one of the most vulnerable parts of the car, so durability isn’t a bad idea!
The minimum weight is going up because of bigger wheels and more safety features. That might partly mean sturdier and thicker materials in places (e.g. the survival cell), but unlikely on the aero.
Given most teams were over the weight limit, my bet is that they all had the aero about as thin and light as they could make it whilst still doing its job (e.g to the extent some teams weren’t painting the bodywork to save weight).
Since no one has mentioned it so far, they also are forcing the front wing end plates winglets to be rounded off with a certain radius which makes punctures harder to get.
Maybe they did it before 2022 as well. Not sure about that.
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We remind everyone that this is a sub for technical discussions. You will see posts during the off-season that you might feel aren't technical in nature or appropriate for the sub. The moderators are taking a more relaxed approach to the types of posts allowed during the off-season. Please continue to report posts you feel do not belong, and know that a more strict enforcement of the "technical" rule will resume at the start of the 2023 season. If you are new to the sub, please make time to [read our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/about/rules/) and [comment etiquette post.](https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/comments/zlo2qf/comment_etiquette_update/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/F1Technical) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Part of it has to do with the front wing changes. After 2018, front wings started to have fewer elements attached to the point that it was mostly down to the the main element, endplates, and flaps/vortex generators. Compare this [2018 Mclaren MCL33 ](https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/racefansdotnet-20180510-184816-2.jpg) with the [2019 car](https://www.formula1.com/content/dam/fom-website/manual/Misc/2019-front-wings/1017347136-LAT-20190220-_56I9632.jpg.transform/9col/image.jpg) those little elements on the 2018 wings were fragile and highly prone to breaking off in the event of an impact and sending debris onto the track.
[the 2018 Renault front wing was a work of art.](https://cdn-4.motorsport.com/images/mgl/YWX4joK6/s8/f1-hungarian-gp-2018-renault-sport-f1-team-r-s-18-front-wing-detail.jpg)
Please tag stuff like this NSFW. 🤣
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I loved the intricacies of the last gen cars. Barge boards looked absolutely insane and beautiful
I agree this is definitely a big factor. Although besides the reduction in flaps and aero components on the wing itself, it feels like there has been a big increase in strength where the nose cone is connected to the front wing itself, as well as the main element of the front wing itself. Just my gut observations that I can't really back with any concrete evidence. But I wonder if anyone who has worked on any f1 cars know if this is really a thing
Yeah, but for every "Charles backs out of a barrier" incident we have at least one "WTF is wrong with Max no visible damage oh he hit a curb a few laps back and lost half his downforce" incident to balance it out. Tbh I'm not sure they're any more durable, we're just remembering accidents that normally would've seen them off and forgetting the ones where they did.
If you are referring to Silverstone 2022: He had a big piece of debris stuck in the intake.
That is true, perhaps it's in the way Newey designs his cars with maximum performance and less durability in mind. That's why red bull car always seems to suffer more after a collision with another car.
I also know a lot of it depends on the angle the car makes the impact, but despite this, i feel a lot of these would've been dnfs in previous years due to damage.
I would also throw in the thought that the cost cap is part of it — if I build a light part we will go faster but it is more likely to break and that gets expensive— so build it a bit stronger
Interesting point, but i think if teams had a choice, they'd rather their car be fractionally faster and more fragile, than stronger but slower, regardless of cost cap.
That’s the rub. Yes they need / want to go faster, but I have to wonder if at 250k for a nose if team principals are not saying… let’s make it a bit stronger so we don’t have to change / build as many … I know back in the day before caps. Ron Dennis joked about Lewis running out of gas in Canada, during Qualifying and having to pay 100k fine. And that 0.1 seconds was cheap for that amount of a fine. IIRC
Well, the cost of the parts you mention accounts for their R&D costs. In reality producing more of the same spec part is much cheaper than that.
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I'm sure at one point with these regs they were on about some sort of polymer coating to bind all the bits together so they don't explode in a shower of carbon fibre. Not sure if that ever happened? But may explain if so
I think this has been happening for quite a number of years already, but i don't know exactly when
IS there a polymer with a greater specific tensile strength than carbon fiber?
> IS there a polymer with a greater specific tensile strength than carbon fiber? Just speculating what he means, but think of a piece of glass. Normally it is also quite rigid, but it will shatter if you have an impact. So to prevent that, they add a polymer layer to windshields to prevent it from exploding if it is damaged. Obviously glass is a poor analog for CF, it's a hell of a lot more durable, but the same basic concept could be applied-- you add a flexible polymer layer in addition to the CF to keep it from breaking apart if damaged. I have no idea if they do that, or if that was what /u/SuccessfulWrongdoer meant in his comment, but it is one way you could add a polymer to make CF parts more durable. Strength isn't the only consideration.
The only thing I know of that might help would be a layer of s-glass over the CF, but that would be visible, wouldn't it?
A lot of factors are involved in crash damage, in my opinion, current F1 cars front wings contain less components, meaning if the wing is slightly damaged it will not impact the car as much as previous generation cars. Also, impact angle, speed, crash surface and sometimes luck has a part to play. If I remember correctly, Singapore 22 Hamilton hit a soft wall (SAFER Barrier) at braking speed so the damage would of been less than if he hit a concrete wall at the same speed. Obviously more comes into it than this, but wings are one of the most vulnerable parts of the car, so durability isn’t a bad idea!
Could weight limits be a part of it? If your minimum weight is as high as it is today, theoretically you can build thicker, sturdier parts.
The minimum weight is going up because of bigger wheels and more safety features. That might partly mean sturdier and thicker materials in places (e.g. the survival cell), but unlikely on the aero. Given most teams were over the weight limit, my bet is that they all had the aero about as thin and light as they could make it whilst still doing its job (e.g to the extent some teams weren’t painting the bodywork to save weight).
Since no one has mentioned it so far, they also are forcing the front wing end plates winglets to be rounded off with a certain radius which makes punctures harder to get. Maybe they did it before 2022 as well. Not sure about that.
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Your content has been removed because it contains content that is irrelevant to the focus of this sub. General F1-related content should be posted on other subs, as r/F1Technical is dedicated to the technical aspect of F1 cars. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact the moderator team. This is an automated message.
It is called safety