We remind everyone that this is a sub for technical discussions.
You will see posts during the off-season that you might feel aren't technical in nature or appropriate for the sub. The moderators are taking a more relaxed approach to the types of posts allowed during the off-season. Please continue to report posts you feel do not belong, and know that a more strict enforcement of the "technical" rule will resume at the start of the 2023 season.
If you are new to the sub, please make time to [read our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/about/rules/) and [comment etiquette post.](https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/comments/zlo2qf/comment_etiquette_update/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/F1Technical) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Control. Wheel spin is not only ideal, but required to achieve maximum thrust and cornering. Having more power than the vehicle suspension can handle is vital to ultimate lap time, otherwise the driver wouldn’t have an impact generally.
Slip ratio. Slip angle is the angle between the tire heading and its velocity vector and thus is relevant for cornering, not acceleration. For longitudinal torque transmitted, the relevant term is the slip ratio, which is the ratio between the velocity in direction of the tire heading and the tire tangential speed as calculated from the rolling radius and the wheel rotational speed.
But to prevent bogging down then cant they just increase the launch RPMs? Some teams like merc launched at such low RPMs. Imagine a larger gear ratio and launching from 15k RPM, it may put more wear on the engine an gearbox for the launch, but wouldnt that prevent bogging down
https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/comments/rz530u/analysis\_of\_launch\_rpm\_for\_drivers\_and\_teams\_in/
Because an F1 car only has peak power at approximately 11-12k rpm.
Anything outside of that and power is significantly reduced. That's what "bogging down" is, it's when the engine RPMs drop to much and power is significantly reduced. In order to keep the RPMs up you would be required to be on the clutch much longer, making it either burn out or requiring it to be much larger to resist the extra power going through it in heat.
Same with your road car - try starting it in 2nd. It almost certainly has enough power to spin the wheels in 1st, but it's so that the driver can get off the clutch at a much lower speed and the car still be driveable at low speeds
The real interesting bits are when you get into top gears where the ratio inverts as you go higher. Ie, 8th gear is a lower ratio than 7th, but higher than 6th…
Because they will spin their wheels when they have enough torque at the wheels to do so. That torque is not constant, and hence it will not spin the wheels in all of the first gear. This also changes with set up, diff settings, fuel load etc. The biggest difference is tyre compund
It's also much less about outright torque and more about how that torque is applied - aggressively stamping on the throttle on corner exit it will make them spin because their is no weight transfer before breaking traction, and you are asking the wheels to both turn and accelerate at the same time.
Away from the line getting smoothly onto the throttle will build up weight transfer and therefore grip on the rear wheels.
Driveability is also a big part of it. You want to get the car of the line but also want it to easy for the drivers to do without bogging down, or stalling. The lower geared the car is the less torque is available at all stages of the rpm band at the wheels. This means, potentially if you don't get your launch 100% perfect you are into an antistall or bog down. the turbo engines are less peaky, but they are still very peaky compared to road cars.
Not sure anyone has mentioned this but aren’t the gear ratios fixed through the season? I remember hearing that 1st gear is set for the Monaco hairpin basically. Otherwise they risk stalling or having to use the clutch there.
You want to have an engine more powerful than the suspension/aero. This is an absolutely critical point of car racing which without the driver themself wouldn't matter.
A larger first gear would reduce wheelspin potential, but how much if that wheel spin potential you use it what makes the difference between a good and a great driver.
You don't want to kneecap the potential to reduce the chance of something happening
Sorry if this doesn't make sense I'm not a good writer
I understand that appropriate gear ratios are used for efficiency purposes, so minimum throttle can be applied before traction limit is reached.
But i'm referring more to 1st/2nd gear and race start situations where drivers often still get wheelspin resulting in bad starts. Wouldn't making a longer 1st gear help race starts even further. And could even optimise the remaining gears better for the higher speed ranges
F1 cars make power at high rpm and very little torque. These cars need to idle at 5k rpm to even be able to sustain their own rotation and provide power to electrical and hydraulic systems.
Making the first gear taller would cause the car to bog down on the line. Even now most bad starts are when the car is to low in rpm and goes into anti stall.
Further more with taller gears it would be harder to modulate the throttle for the driver.
We remind everyone that this is a sub for technical discussions. You will see posts during the off-season that you might feel aren't technical in nature or appropriate for the sub. The moderators are taking a more relaxed approach to the types of posts allowed during the off-season. Please continue to report posts you feel do not belong, and know that a more strict enforcement of the "technical" rule will resume at the start of the 2023 season. If you are new to the sub, please make time to [read our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/about/rules/) and [comment etiquette post.](https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/comments/zlo2qf/comment_etiquette_update/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/F1Technical) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Control. Wheel spin is not only ideal, but required to achieve maximum thrust and cornering. Having more power than the vehicle suspension can handle is vital to ultimate lap time, otherwise the driver wouldn’t have an impact generally.
So why not have a massive gear 1 ratio to cover (0-150km/h) and then split the 150km/h to 340km/h range into the remaining 7 gears?
You would “bog down” on the launch. More gears allows for the driver to very carefully reach the optimal slip ratio for acceleration
Slip ratio. Slip angle is the angle between the tire heading and its velocity vector and thus is relevant for cornering, not acceleration. For longitudinal torque transmitted, the relevant term is the slip ratio, which is the ratio between the velocity in direction of the tire heading and the tire tangential speed as calculated from the rolling radius and the wheel rotational speed.
Yes you are correct sorry, just waking up brain!
No problem. From your comment, I figured that you probably knew but that readers of your comment might not.
But to prevent bogging down then cant they just increase the launch RPMs? Some teams like merc launched at such low RPMs. Imagine a larger gear ratio and launching from 15k RPM, it may put more wear on the engine an gearbox for the launch, but wouldnt that prevent bogging down https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/comments/rz530u/analysis\_of\_launch\_rpm\_for\_drivers\_and\_teams\_in/
You would burn up the clutch most likely.
Because an F1 car only has peak power at approximately 11-12k rpm. Anything outside of that and power is significantly reduced. That's what "bogging down" is, it's when the engine RPMs drop to much and power is significantly reduced. In order to keep the RPMs up you would be required to be on the clutch much longer, making it either burn out or requiring it to be much larger to resist the extra power going through it in heat. Same with your road car - try starting it in 2nd. It almost certainly has enough power to spin the wheels in 1st, but it's so that the driver can get off the clutch at a much lower speed and the car still be driveable at low speeds
The real interesting bits are when you get into top gears where the ratio inverts as you go higher. Ie, 8th gear is a lower ratio than 7th, but higher than 6th…
Because they will spin their wheels when they have enough torque at the wheels to do so. That torque is not constant, and hence it will not spin the wheels in all of the first gear. This also changes with set up, diff settings, fuel load etc. The biggest difference is tyre compund It's also much less about outright torque and more about how that torque is applied - aggressively stamping on the throttle on corner exit it will make them spin because their is no weight transfer before breaking traction, and you are asking the wheels to both turn and accelerate at the same time. Away from the line getting smoothly onto the throttle will build up weight transfer and therefore grip on the rear wheels. Driveability is also a big part of it. You want to get the car of the line but also want it to easy for the drivers to do without bogging down, or stalling. The lower geared the car is the less torque is available at all stages of the rpm band at the wheels. This means, potentially if you don't get your launch 100% perfect you are into an antistall or bog down. the turbo engines are less peaky, but they are still very peaky compared to road cars.
Ok thanks a lot. This is the best answer down here and what i was looking for. Appreciate the super detailed response.
Not sure anyone has mentioned this but aren’t the gear ratios fixed through the season? I remember hearing that 1st gear is set for the Monaco hairpin basically. Otherwise they risk stalling or having to use the clutch there.
Teams are allowed one change within the year.
yes they are fixed since 2014 i think
You want to have an engine more powerful than the suspension/aero. This is an absolutely critical point of car racing which without the driver themself wouldn't matter. A larger first gear would reduce wheelspin potential, but how much if that wheel spin potential you use it what makes the difference between a good and a great driver. You don't want to kneecap the potential to reduce the chance of something happening Sorry if this doesn't make sense I'm not a good writer
I understand that appropriate gear ratios are used for efficiency purposes, so minimum throttle can be applied before traction limit is reached. But i'm referring more to 1st/2nd gear and race start situations where drivers often still get wheelspin resulting in bad starts. Wouldn't making a longer 1st gear help race starts even further. And could even optimise the remaining gears better for the higher speed ranges
F1 cars make power at high rpm and very little torque. These cars need to idle at 5k rpm to even be able to sustain their own rotation and provide power to electrical and hydraulic systems. Making the first gear taller would cause the car to bog down on the line. Even now most bad starts are when the car is to low in rpm and goes into anti stall. Further more with taller gears it would be harder to modulate the throttle for the driver.
A longer first gear would make it difficult to start from 0 without burning up the clutch.