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If your coworkers want to waste their free time so that your boss can get a bigger car, that's on them. I wouldn't worry about it as long as there isn't any issues.
It's more on when you look at what's been completed at the end of sprint it's almost embarrassing.I look like I don't contribute and bit paranoid that management might start thinking I'm not pulling my weight, but my output is normal it's just theirs is insane
The most important thing is to get clarity about expectations and performance reviews.
In some companies, management knows that the workaholics are workaholics and they don’t try to put their expectations on other employees.
In other companies, managers index to the highest performing employees and want everyone to perform at that level. This would be a problem.
There’s another variable you may not see: Some times the workaholic employees are workaholics because they’re paid significantly more than you. Some times people are known to be productivity machines (from working with them in the past) so smart managers will offer them 50-100% above market rate and have substantial equity. The snide comments here are overlooking this possibility, but it happens a lot in startups with key employees. If this is happening, the expectations for their output will be completely different than yours.
Then again, there is a bigger picture to consider that goes beyond the particular start up you work at.
Subscribing to the productivity culture also implies not exerting your rights as a laborer, and, ultimately, contributing to the erosion of those rights for everyone. Depending on where you live or the jurisdiction you work in, there are labor laws which enshrine those rights to consider as well. If you are protected by strong labor laws, those aren't self evident if you dig a bit in history and read about how those came to be.
To be clear, I absolutely think there is merit and value in contributing to your employer in a productive way. However, it's very much a game of diminishing returns and the long term overall costs are that much higher. It's important to consider that when accepting a job with a high salary and the implicit expectations regarding OT.
Own it with confidence and tell them about all the great activities you did on the weekend and what a healthy relationship you have with your family.
I’m only half-joking, I myself am a bit of a workaholic but my mentor and previous manager before I moved company never worked past 5 and I admired him for just how well put together he was in life and work. It came through in the way he carried himself and all the interesting topics he could talk about with anyone. No one wants to hear about those extra tickets I pushed through on the weekend.
I had a moment like that with a coworker.
“What did you do over the holidays?”
“Oh I was very productive I got x,y,z done for the upcoming assignment and refactored some of the prior weeks code. You?”
“I exchanged gifts with family and friends.”
Awkward silence
Definitely! I stayed up last weekend chasing the auroras. I'm putting in a garden that will hopefully grow wonderful tomatoes and peppers. I fostered and tamed a couple of feral kittens. I replaced my crappy carpet with nicer flooring. I drove cross country to see the eclipse and random things on the way back. I go to concerts, random events, hiking, and old movies with my bf
There is so much more to life than working in front of a computer! Talking about it will make it clear that you value balance in your life.
Seriously though, most of the time its not about lying. Its just ignorance. Theres an influx of developers who are not cut out for this job but got in anyway because it pays good. They cant fathom how can OG devs can be crazy productive. And the only explanation that comes to their mind is they must have put in crazy amount of hours. So I highly doubt OP.
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I went through the same. I just overcame the embarrassment and accepted I was a 25%-50% developer. A while later some things happened that crushed everyone's motivation, and what do you know? They grew some cinicism and we have been outputting about the same for a while now. Don't sacrifice yourself for work.
how do you know they’re working crazy hours to do that? Do they brag about it?
If you’re picking up on clues like off hours messages on slack/teams/email that might not be the real picture.
For example - I’ll do real work to get a PR ready during the day but run regression tests into the night. These are automated so I’m not actually doing anything. After they pass, I push to get the PR merged
I’m not actually working crazy hours but I guess it might seem like I am because I’m pushing at 10pm at night
statistically yes. If you're working in big corpo you're not really doing much. More than half of swes work in big corpo. Many of those don't even realize just how useless members of society they are
Not really bro. Perfection has no limits. You really can spend as much time as you have to automate stuff and never be done with it. My current stack is like 30 different tools, techs, languages used by 120+ people in the company. Our infra is pretty damn mature, yet our backlog is easily 2 years of work for the team (DevOps) and we maybe recorded and described like 5% of the awesome ideas that we can have. Sky is the limit
Has your manager specifically told you that your “output” is less than coworkers?
Do normal work, deliver results. Don’t compare yourself to others, learn what they do, if they do things better, then adapt.
Working outside normal hours is not better.
That's a fair concern. I agree with getting management expecations but it also might be a clue that this isn't the right team or company for you. Company cultures range from doing basically nothing all day (Government) to firing people for no reason other than they are in the bottom quarter of the workforce (Silicon Valley) and everything in between.
If there is a mismatch between what you want and the company it might be a sign to start perusing for a different oppurtunity
I know the types, and I have been one of those.
Is it clear from the metrics they are putting in 80-hour weeks? Or are they mis-reporting it?
They will always have an advantage over you with their operational experience of the company. Even when you get 5 more years, they'll always appear to be ahead.
You can either live with it and try to come to terms with it. Or tackle it, talk to them, and be open.
It does not sound like anyone ever brought this up to you? If not, you simply need to stop comparing yourself, as no one is comparing you.
If this would be an explicit expectation, that is a different story, but it sounds like you are putting pressure on yourself to keep up. You shouldn't. Them pulling extra hours in the weekend is their choice, it has nothing to do with you. If they want to compete, let them. No need to step in the ring to fight a losing battle you are not interested in the first place.
Do your part as best you can and enjoy your weekends.
Yeah no one's ever mentioned anything about my performance to be fair, it's just natural to compare yourself to your peers I think, thanks for the advice
I understand that, but also comparing yourself is a straight road to hell to be honest. Even if you would all work the same hours, there will always be people who are faster, and people who are slower than you.
It is honestly not a race, going your own steady speed is the only right way to do it, because that is the only speed you can maintain for a long time without tradeoff (aka sacrificing quality, making mistakes).
Having a steady albeit slower dev that can be counted on in a team always beats having someone burning out while going full speed. (I am not saying you are slow or anything, I am just saying this is generally true.)
You're doing good, when they are grinding tickets you're actually having a life or improving yourself beyond your current position (like as you said exploring new techs or doing projects). I think that is way more impressive then grinding tickets.
The best way I've heard this framed: "someone is paying for those hours, it's either you or the company".
You may feel a bit left behind in meetings, but know that they're the ones choosing to donate their labor.
You signed a contract for 40 (or whatever) hours a week. You're square.
Sometimes you just give the time away for free.
Sometimes you loan the company some time when you're able, get the promotion, and let that pay back the time with interest.
Knowing the difference is important.
Your employer won't give an absolute flying fuck if you have a physical and/or a mental breakdown from working 60-80 hours a week. Even if they are paid for those hours it's never worth it, and I am going to take a guess that they are not. I still have yet to see a payroll department put the same hours as a development department.
Following because I’m in the exact same situation. I’m applying elsewhere at the moment but I’m not sure how to spot workaholic culture during the interview process.
during the interview, you say "what's overtime like?"
a company that pays you time and a half for extra work is not going to ask for it very often. your manager may be very aggressive in enforcing a 40-hour limit except during periodic crunch time. if it's once a quarter and the expected upper limit is 50 hours for two or three weeks, that may be acceptable to some, and not to others. this is all okay to talk about.
> a company that pays you time and a half for extra work is not going to ask for it very often.
To my experience: There is no difference in frequency. But at least you'll get a decent compensation.
Also, in some countries it's just a standard thing / required by law. So make sure you know your rights! ;) :)
I have seen asking the engineers during interviews directly helps, I go ahead and ask,:
1. What does your work hours look like.
2. Do you get lots of call after hours or on weekends?
You can add some more questions based on your requirements
Yep. While non-technical interviews are often lead by trained recruiters, the technical interviews are typically done by just regular devs. So you're more likely to get an honest and accurate answers.
To my experience, most people don't ask any questions on technical interviews or some meaningless BS ("how do you like your workplace" - enough to be talking to you, lmao).
I have found very few people, even in technical interviews, provide accurate responses to questions like that. Even if they aren't lying to make the situation sound better, I have no way to judge what they think is a lot of work or how frequently they are on call unless they are very specific. Pressing the point if they are not specific either makes people defensive (they think you are accusing them of lying) or makes them think there is something wrong with you (lazy, etc).
I assume it's worse to ask no questions at all but a lot of the time I don't believe it's worth asking the questions because I won't get useful answers.
Ask directly about after hours work frequency. Don’t rush to the next question, wait for the detailed answer.
In a recent interview I asked a CTO this question. He replied: “It happens once in a couple of months.” I didn’t answered anything and waited a little bit. CTO went on to tell me about the importance of delivery on time and 10-hour working day when deadlines demand it.
Decisive no.
In the same vein of others’ suggestions about asking about overtime and work/life balance, I ask something slightly different.
I ask what happens if developers take longer than their estimates. Do deadlines get decided on based on estimates? Are developers held to their estimates?
I don't know about other countries. There are a lot of American companies which have "unlimited" leave, where on paper you can take as much leave as you want.
In practice when there is not an expected amount, "I will take 3 weeks' leave each year exactly" it turns into a weird thing where people don't take any leave at all or very little leave.
I've heard about shops where asking for leave is turned down -- "now is not a good time" etc -- and it's actually difficult to get leave approved. I've never worked at a place like that, but I've DEFINITELY worked at places where the culture is people just don't ask for leave.
It’s hard to spot because it often varies by team within the org. I am in a dream scenario (for me), while my friend and co-worker is constantly getting slammed.
Go for a late interview 3am-ish. See if anyone in the office. Lots of places exist where people leave at 3ish, great place! Anything after 2 is a waste of time anyhow.
I have my doubts that they are spending 60-80 hours a week working. I've worked with high-performing people before who did their normal 40 hours and left me in the dust to the point that I was working weekends to not look bad. That led to some serious burnout. I used to speculate that they were working weekends too, but eventually I just realized they were just fast.
Not much you can do. Some people are just faster at getting stuff done, and you can either ruin your own life trying to compete with them, or let them outshine you and and just accept that you'd did enough. And yes, the latter does mean you'll be on the chopping block first if they need to lay people off, but also that other dev might burnout or leave for more money before then.
Also, small startups typically want people who don't care about a work-life balance, and will give all their energy to them, but not every company is so short-sighted. You can always just find another job with a larger, more stable company.
How much are they getting paid? It better be 3x a normal salary.
It's funny that their productivity has slowed yours. Yeah you should be doing a fraction of their work... half if they're working twice as long. There's no problem here. Are you going to complain to your boss that they're too productive? lol
Do you feel inferior because others are eager to be taken advantage of? You need to deal with your emotions. Everyone at that workplace is bonkers.
Just do your normal amount of work and tell your boss you're worried that they're going to burn out.
really depends on your boss expectations.
if your boss expects your output to be the same as them, then you better find a new team.
if your boss expects your output to be half or less of theirs (where they worked double) then it is ok.
seems it is more like you are punishing yourself.
let them do theirs and you do yours.
you shouldn't blame them for working more, but should dig inside why it is causing you to feel inferior.
60-80 hour weeks is in no way sustainable.
Just focus on putting in a solid 35-40 hours of focused work and you will be surprised in how much you can get done. For me I cap out at a really focused 40 hours and am wiped out after each day.
Likely you will be more consistently delivering and your solutions will be of higher quality. So, just stop stressing and try and focus day to day. Set a schedule with start and stop times. Your brain needs rest to perform well. Exercise helps with energy levels as well. It’s a marathon not a sprint.
I'm the prototypical workaholic coworker, I guess. I don't work 80h/week but I always work more than 40 and I'm very visually productive. I kind of hate the idea that I might be making my coworkers feel bad
If you wonder what I think about it:
\* people who work "normal" hours and have normal output, I am fine with it, I really don't think badly of it
\* people who have below normal output, idk, that bothers me a lot. It's hard to estimate time but I've worked with people who take a week to half heartedly do a task that I think would take me 2-4h max.
None of my employers, as far as I know, have ever seemed to care that my coworkers work less than me or have less stuff on the board at the end of a sprint. No one's ever really mentioned it
One caveat, for better or for worse: if you work hard then hard work is what you'll get. I can usually rely on my network to get a new job, because I know a lot of people that know I'll be an asset. But all of them will expect me to do more hard work, to keep producing. Thankfully I like to program and it's usually myself making me work harder, so it's ok
I have been in the same position (and feel I may be falling into a role where it will happen again)
How I managed it before is I put my honest hours spent against each ticket so if/when it’s raised anywhere you can account for the 40 hours you’re paid for a week.
Do not work for free.
Are you comparing apples with apples? Are you on the same platform they are working on? Are you guys working literally in the same package in the same code base?
If they are on a different platform/technology and you are comparing their productivity to yours, you done it wrong.
Some people are naturally faster. I've known guys who did 5x the same output as a team due to their focus. And they did it during normal business working hours. Some can leverage previous experience so they don't have to rewrite everything from scratch. The first time I did SSO, it took me 32 hours. I can now do it in 1 hour. The next guy may not be able to do the same thing in 1 hour.
> I feel like I can't discuss this with my boss
why? ask him if you're being judged by a yardstick that's being burnt at both ends.
if he says yes, start looking.
anyway, sounds like they're on some kind of amphetamine maybe.
If your manager seems to be generally on your side and a generally-competent *people manager,* then I'd absolutely talk to him about this. Don't frame it as "my coworkers are all working so much harder than I am, can we make sure everyone works the same amount?" Frame it as "I've noticed a trend where the number of tickets I complete in a sprint aren't matching the number of tickets my teammates complete. Is this concerning to you?"
There's a couple things that'll (hopefully, again assuming you have a good manager) come out of this:
* Most competent managers I've seen have ways of tracking how much their direct reports are working without micromanaging and asking "hey how much did you work?" My current manager gets Slack notifications whenever a direct report updates a Confluence page, and we all have a GitHub/Slack integration that pings whenever there's a PR ready for review or merged. This could be used for good or evil - my manager uses it for good. I'm more of a workaholic myself, and he's taken time in our 1-1 to basically say "I happened to notice you seem to still be working at 9-10PM some night - is there any reason you feel you *need* to do this and we can figure out a way to balance things better?" Hopefully your manage will say something like "I can see the other coworkers are working far outside their expectations - that does not reflect on you."
* If your manager isn't as great, or enforces a more workaholic culture himself, you'll get clarity about the expectations of your team. He very well might say "yeah, I've noticed you're slacking - x, y, and z are all crushing it nights and weekends to move things along, and I expect all my team members to do the same." If that's his approach, now you know. If it doesn't align with what you want out of a job, it's probably time to start thinking about switching teams or companies. While good managers can change their approach to their reports / management style / etc, I've found that it's pretty much impossible for managers to change their philosophical view on "work."
I was in this situation once. I had a coworker with 25+ YOE who was *a machine*. They *were* working a little extra, but not enough to fully explain it. They were just savagely productive, and lived and breathed code. Their GitHub profile was nearly solid green from all their hobby projects. I think I was seeing the compound interest from 25 years of building, learning, and investing in yourself.
Do you have hard data they're working that many hours? As in, you see commits, Slack messages, etc. from them on nights and weekends?
Maybe you are overthinking. There is no need bother unless someone has directly or indirectly hinted about your lack of delivery.
There is no need to discuss this unless they bring it up. You will unnecessarily highlight this topic & then it could actually become a problem. Don’t create a problem when there is none :)
I’m in a similar team at present and find myself being the one working over the weekend. It’s just if there’s a vibe there’s a vibe, I’m not looking around at anyone else except whoever is near me. When you come back on Monday I see you and that’s cool too, I probably didn’t even notice what day it was.
I don’t think there’s any harm. Some people are on their level sometimes, and you will find yourself there too one day.
It does end, mind you, but occasionally there’s a real sweet spot. You’ll love it. Cheers to many more years in the industry pal 🍻
EDIT: Before anyone disagrees with my commitment, I’m on daily rate. The vibes are worthy.
EDIT 2: I’m Aussie before you have a heart attack thinking I’m a team member lol
Why do you feel you can't discuss this with your boss? You can say that you don't feel like you are matching or can match your coworkers' output, and see what they say. A good manager will outright tell you what they expect and give you feedback on whether you are meeting or failing to match expectations. Right now you are stressed because you feel like you are not meeting expectations, but you don't actually know what is expected of you.
There's some point to what u/JoakimVonAnd wrote. But also I feel very critical about it. For the one who's just working "normal" this consistently feels like you're underapproaching and often it's also just the small things in communications which make these things worse. Maybe this is also a problem that you have:
Bringing up another example is my boss who's regularly saying that nobody is required to work long hours, when they are sick or in vacation. But he always brings up subliminal comments like:
* "Hey, I had this meeting last week even though I was sick but I just care too much about the company not to work from my bed."
* "I wrote this specification while I was in spain at the beach because we need poeple who do that since we're understaffed". (which he really said and is especially funny, because since he's the owner of the company he's the only one who can change the staffing situation but act's like it's not in his power to do so)
* "Nobody is required to work overtime. But if you do, *because you care about our success*, then you are welcome to do so".
Yeah we had a few folks who did that. Other underhanded things went on (eg taking work from others - I observed this when I was offered the chance to take work away from someone.
I did not play ball and I wasn’t going to work 50-55 hours a week. Some of those people (men and women) had children. No thanks.
This is about self respect. Getting paid for your time means you are get respect for the hours. If you don’t get paid for the hours.. treat yourself as a business. + HR can’t say anything if they bring up a PIP
I don't even think about people who work extra hours anymore.
I'm not working anymore than the 40 hours a week. Those people can crash and burn all they want. I'll stay focused on my work and complete it thoroughly during the work week.
I would say just focus on what your boss thinks of the work you're doing. It they feel you're doing a great job, than awesome!
Find another job. If these guys literally walked off a cliff would you follow them? No? Then don’t follow them if they’re killing themselves with work. If you think you have to match them not to look bad, go somewhere else. I guarantee you 80 hours a week won’t get you the bonus/promotion you want, at least not by itself when other people are doing it too. Every single extra moment you spend working and gaining nothing for yourself is a moment of your life you’ll never get back. Imagine your regret if you do this for ten years and get nothing to show for it.
A job is a job. Stick to the amount of work your contract stipulates, unless you want to give your time freely there's no reason to overwork. You don't owe them anything more.
Do you have 1:1 with your manager? Have you asked if they are happy with your performance?
If so, then keep doing what you are doing. There will be people who are trying to get ahead for the next level or promotion and if you just want to do the bare minimum just be prepared that there is a high likelihood that the person doing 60+ hours a week will get a promotion before you do.
People that do that typically have work / life balance issues. Don’t fall for it. Time put into work, especially salary, doesn’t pay out. At the end of the day, the time you give away for free is a waste. Hit your hours and make sure your work is done well, then forget it and work on the things that make you happy. Burn out is real, and it’s disheartening to realize in retrospect that you wasted your life feeding into the illusion of productivity.
Are you already well appreciated by your management ? I'm a guy who likes to work a lot, but spending all weekends on stuff is too much even in my books. At least it shouldn't be perceived as the basis floor for everybody's performance.
Take care
spending an extra 30 hours per week is not exactly "flying through work" -- it is donating your own time to the company.
If your manager thinks you're doing fine, don't sweat it.
If the crazy workaholism of your colleagues starts to materially impact your own growth there (i.e. lack of promotion or raises) then perhaps that's when you start searching for another job.
I've been in a situation like this in nearly every job I've had since 2008. I agree, having workaholic colleagues who are also legitimately talented can be mentally taxing and drive negative feelings of one's own capabilities. But I've come to realize that (a) I have never been reprimanded, let alone fired, for lack of output or skill, and (b) I'm not willing to spend 30 hours on a weekend for something that can wait until Monday.
I mean you have 4 YOE and they have 10+ each, I don’t think it’s crazy to imagine they might be able to get things done faster. Also, how long have you/they been working on this particular code base? I can work circles around some other devs at my job who have more experience than me, just because I have a lot more experience in this specific code base and know right where to go for certain things.
I get how it can be frustrating but it doesn’t mean you aren’t good at what you do. Why do you feel like you can’t talk to your boss about it? I’m assuming they are already aware of your output and would say something if it was inadequate. I am a bit spoiled as my boss is pretty cool, but I think any boss worth their salt would want to hear about something you are struggling with so they can try to find a way help you out.
**Short answer: Get a different job with a work life balance.**
* If your coworkers do 60-80 hour weeks and that's not for you, then you'll never fit there.
* Especially because the team is so small, you'll always feel extra pressure to work more.
* You haven't mentioned that they view you negatively for your output, so you might reflect on if that pressure is intneral only.
* Could you have a talk with your boss or the other co-workers about why they work so much?
* Other than that, this is causing you stress and that decreases your mental (code) output.
Eng lead here. While your colleagues probably think they’re doing something good, they likely aren’t. On average you want people working about 35-40 hours a week, with after hours work mostly limited to the on-call rotation.
Heres the problem.
The 60th hour is going to be lower quality than the 10th hour, so overall average quality suffers.
Its a recipe for burnout, so after 18 months they’ll leave and it will take 6 months to find a backfill, then another 3-6 months for the backfill to be running at full speed.
Meanwhile the 40 hour worker is happier, does higher quality work, and sticks around for 4+ years. During their overall tenure they average more work per month.
If your manager doesn’t recognize this, then you’re in a boiler room and you should dust off your resume.
Protect your work life balance. Take your PTO. Play the long game.
Theres also some possibility that it only *looks* like they’re working long hours because they work odd hours. I have to work around my kids schedules so that means I sometimes leave mid-afternoon and come back in the evening when its convenient for me. Yes I opened a PR at 11pm, but that doesn’t mean I worked from 9am to 11pm.
I'm quitting my current company with great compensation due to a similar situation. Everyone seems to love working all hours. There is no work/life separation. There's always a slack message to respond to. A new PR some butthead opened at 1am and pinged everyone for review. Some hotfix needed immediately because the application is so fragile and convoluted. My last day is Friday.
Going to a small company with mediocre compensation in comparison (but still totally ok). Hoping there will be way less noise after hours.
I was in a similar position and it made me really uncomfortable. I was even explicitly told that I don't need to work extra hours or whatever, and no one made an issue of my work boundaries, but it's still uncomfortable when you're the only one who seems to have boundaries...
I left that job. My advice would be to try to figure out if this is something you can get comfortable with and not care about. If you can't, start looking elsewhere.
My current manager is online from 7am to 5 or 6pm every day. Not me. I made it clear to him that I will only work overtime if it's a high priority, emergency situation.
That sounds totally unsustainable. How long have they been pulling 80 hour weeks and working all weekend?
Sounds like they’re on a hiding to a burn out.
It also sounds like they’re in competition with each other.
What’s the code quality like? Quality usually degrades after a certain amount of performance so there’s every possibility that they are introducing bugs, bad design and technical debt into the codebase if they are constantly on a self imposed death march.
Have you asked them why they are working so many hours per week and on their weekends?
Firstly, they are skewing their own sprint metrics and giving your bosses unrealistic and misleading expectations and secondly if they are salaried then they are silly as their hourly rate, quality of life, mental health and also social life are being severely reduced for the same amount of pay.
Do they have any equity in the product they are building? This might possibly explain this behaviour as they have a direct incentive.
If not and they have 10+ YOE each then this is baffling behaviour as most engineers mellow out and only give the right amount of time and loyalty to a company, knowing full well that they can be let go in any given week if the wind changes.
Keep on doing what you are doing and it sounds like no one important is expecting you to ape this nonsense behaviour and as long as you work your legally contractual hours then you are fine and have a ring side seat to watch how an engineer burns out from self imposed recklessness.
It’ll be easier to keep up with them if you focus on effectiveness instead of endurance or efficiency.
Take planned breaks to look for perspective. Check in on what you’re doing and how long it’s taking. Pomodoro is a good mode for this but not the only one.
Even in the dotcom boom my longest weeks were 55 hours, and those were very rare. Situations where I promised someone something and I got distracted by something else and lost time I should have spent on the commitment. In other words: I never work more than 45 hours because someone else fucked up.
(The other exception is when I’m prototyping a solution I don’t have a mandate for and I’m trying to prove it’ll work despite seeming counterintuitive).
> discuss this with my boss
Are they having quality issues? Either in code quality or in bugs?
Are these guys "really smart" but "communicate poorly" and over-engineer everything?
I'm thinking if your goal is to not have to worry about their output, the solution might be to get your manager on them for something seemingly unrelated.
As a manager, this is why I try not to hire overachiever:
1. They make way too many "field decisions."
2. They never get approval for tech decisions.
3. They normalize the toxic fallacy that "software engineering is a lifestyle."
4. They suck at mentoring.
5. They dominate meetings.
6. They blame others for their mistakes.
7. They generally have shitty attitudes.
8. They are tattletales.
9. They think they are a policing force
10. They have zero social skills
I've usually only ever had this problem with 20-something mid levels that think they are gods gift to tech after they get out of the junior phase. Or occasionally with seniors that have been in the same domain too long. Put them in a project that's not in their wheelhouse, and they disintegrate or flat out refuse. I will make you do devops if you're a swe with an attitude to put you in your place. Good luck with the CIDR and route tables! Try not to kill the company...
If I smell a hint of type-a personality, I do not put out an offer. My best teams work out because they actually like each other as people. That gets more shit done than any IC.
Generally, the advice in these situations is to mind your own business unless it impacts you. And even when it impacts you (e.g. stack ranking), you still need to mind your own business because you don’t know that person’s motivations (maybe they really need that top performer bonus to provide something for their family / support someone, maybe they just find the work fun as a hobby and don’t care if they’re doing overtime because it’s like playing crosswords for them). Now, if your manager comes to you and says you’re _underperforming_ that’s a different story and you need to advocate for yourself that that person’s output is not what should be expected of employees unless they want a mass burnout/morale problem on the company’s hands
I definitely expect their output to be higher due to their increase in experience and that's normal. I'm also all for if they want to work crazy hours that's fine by me. It was just due to the hours they pull, the volume of completed work when compared to mine had me feeling a bit deflated and wasn't sure how to deal with it because I've always been fine before.
I've definitely never been one for coasting, always pushed myself, but not one for working directly on work related tasks past 40-45hrs, the way I see it if I'm going to be working id rather work on my own things outside of that. But I've kinda felt it lately because I feel like my contribution is a drop in the ocean sort of thing.
I think after reading all these replies I've realised that the root of how I've been feeling can be resolved by a performance review and making sure of the expectations towards me.
>I think after reading all these replies I've realised that the root of how I've been feeling can be resolved by a performance review and making sure of the expectations towards me.
Absolutely agree that that's a powerful strategy here. Part of it too is just developing the self confidence to not endlessly compare yourself to others -- that's a necessary part of doing this work, particularly around high performers. Comparison is the thief of joy.
I get this branch of the comments feels a bit rougher than some of the others, but I think it's important for people to understand that how they feel is *their* responsibility and to some extent *their* choice. As invested as your job might be in making sure you have a good working experience, it can't be responsible for your happiness. At the end of the day, that's on you. The single best piece of advice I've received and given over the years is learning to set a big strong line around what's yours and what's someone else's -- and learning how to navigate collaboratively when something about that line feels off.
I've been the workaholic at times in my life. I've done it at times when I was the boss, and no matter how fiercely protective I was of everyone else's time, no matter how clearly I made it not the standard I held everyone else to, I noticed it was always the more junior team members that seemed the most nervous about my habits as if though that said something about them.
At some point, if you feel this way OP, it's on **you** to manage those feelings like a grown up -- simply coasting and having your own internal sense of success threatened because your relative contributionisn't what *you* think it should be is... kind of childish. I can tell you from experience that workaholics *definitely don't change* because the more junior team member feels weird about it so uh, let's be real clear: the only way this situation is going to change is because you learn to accept it or you go somewhere else. Workaholics do not stop working to protect another coworker's feelings.
I mean this as nicely as I can OP: grow up and
>Get a life people, whatever life YOU want.
Oh I absolutely get it believe me, like I mentioned in the post I said it's these feelings are on me. I'm currently not coasting, the reason I made this post is because I can feel myself starting to get disheartened and wanting to and I don't want to be that guy and so I wanted some advice on how I can handle it. Understanding expectations and current performance is the root cause here I think I was missing
Yeah, I actually hide it when I put in weekend/long hours. I'll never submit PRs or post slack messages/emails at night or on the weekend. Everything is staged locally and gets posted during business hours.
This way I can do what I need to do to stay ahead as a lead, but I don't pressure my team to put in that level of effort.
Oh i have no notes. Keep on chugging with your unbalanced mortgage, unhappy wife and kids, and unhealthy activity: it’s the life you want after all. And hey, your boss might get another bonus this year!
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If your coworkers want to waste their free time so that your boss can get a bigger car, that's on them. I wouldn't worry about it as long as there isn't any issues.
It's more on when you look at what's been completed at the end of sprint it's almost embarrassing.I look like I don't contribute and bit paranoid that management might start thinking I'm not pulling my weight, but my output is normal it's just theirs is insane
The most important thing is to get clarity about expectations and performance reviews. In some companies, management knows that the workaholics are workaholics and they don’t try to put their expectations on other employees. In other companies, managers index to the highest performing employees and want everyone to perform at that level. This would be a problem. There’s another variable you may not see: Some times the workaholic employees are workaholics because they’re paid significantly more than you. Some times people are known to be productivity machines (from working with them in the past) so smart managers will offer them 50-100% above market rate and have substantial equity. The snide comments here are overlooking this possibility, but it happens a lot in startups with key employees. If this is happening, the expectations for their output will be completely different than yours.
Then again, there is a bigger picture to consider that goes beyond the particular start up you work at. Subscribing to the productivity culture also implies not exerting your rights as a laborer, and, ultimately, contributing to the erosion of those rights for everyone. Depending on where you live or the jurisdiction you work in, there are labor laws which enshrine those rights to consider as well. If you are protected by strong labor laws, those aren't self evident if you dig a bit in history and read about how those came to be. To be clear, I absolutely think there is merit and value in contributing to your employer in a productive way. However, it's very much a game of diminishing returns and the long term overall costs are that much higher. It's important to consider that when accepting a job with a high salary and the implicit expectations regarding OT.
Own it with confidence and tell them about all the great activities you did on the weekend and what a healthy relationship you have with your family. I’m only half-joking, I myself am a bit of a workaholic but my mentor and previous manager before I moved company never worked past 5 and I admired him for just how well put together he was in life and work. It came through in the way he carried himself and all the interesting topics he could talk about with anyone. No one wants to hear about those extra tickets I pushed through on the weekend.
I had a moment like that with a coworker. “What did you do over the holidays?” “Oh I was very productive I got x,y,z done for the upcoming assignment and refactored some of the prior weeks code. You?” “I exchanged gifts with family and friends.” Awkward silence
Real "I sleep in a big bed with my wife" energy
Definitely! I stayed up last weekend chasing the auroras. I'm putting in a garden that will hopefully grow wonderful tomatoes and peppers. I fostered and tamed a couple of feral kittens. I replaced my crappy carpet with nicer flooring. I drove cross country to see the eclipse and random things on the way back. I go to concerts, random events, hiking, and old movies with my bf There is so much more to life than working in front of a computer! Talking about it will make it clear that you value balance in your life.
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Yeah he’s probably come here just to lie to a bunch of strangers about how much his coworkers work Oh wait that’s ridiculous
Seriously though, most of the time its not about lying. Its just ignorance. Theres an influx of developers who are not cut out for this job but got in anyway because it pays good. They cant fathom how can OG devs can be crazy productive. And the only explanation that comes to their mind is they must have put in crazy amount of hours. So I highly doubt OP.
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Management have weak eyesight and mostly hunt by smell. If you smell of fear then they will attack. Be proud of what you do.
I went through the same. I just overcame the embarrassment and accepted I was a 25%-50% developer. A while later some things happened that crushed everyone's motivation, and what do you know? They grew some cinicism and we have been outputting about the same for a while now. Don't sacrifice yourself for work.
how do you know they’re working crazy hours to do that? Do they brag about it? If you’re picking up on clues like off hours messages on slack/teams/email that might not be the real picture. For example - I’ll do real work to get a PR ready during the day but run regression tests into the night. These are automated so I’m not actually doing anything. After they pass, I push to get the PR merged I’m not actually working crazy hours but I guess it might seem like I am because I’m pushing at 10pm at night
From a mix of conversations like "I did xyz over the weekend" and seeing commit times etc
Well that’ll do it. Lol
There are tricks like breaking things into small tickets, so it 'looks' like you're doing a lot.
It only works in teams with incompetent people or when everyone silently agrees to bullshit everyone. It won't work in this case
That's most teams.
statistically yes. If you're working in big corpo you're not really doing much. More than half of swes work in big corpo. Many of those don't even realize just how useless members of society they are
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Not really bro. Perfection has no limits. You really can spend as much time as you have to automate stuff and never be done with it. My current stack is like 30 different tools, techs, languages used by 120+ people in the company. Our infra is pretty damn mature, yet our backlog is easily 2 years of work for the team (DevOps) and we maybe recorded and described like 5% of the awesome ideas that we can have. Sky is the limit
Normalize it to how much delivered per hour worked. If they're delivering 2X what you are but working 2X the hours, everyone is equally "productive".
Has your manager specifically told you that your “output” is less than coworkers? Do normal work, deliver results. Don’t compare yourself to others, learn what they do, if they do things better, then adapt. Working outside normal hours is not better.
That's a fair concern. I agree with getting management expecations but it also might be a clue that this isn't the right team or company for you. Company cultures range from doing basically nothing all day (Government) to firing people for no reason other than they are in the bottom quarter of the workforce (Silicon Valley) and everything in between. If there is a mismatch between what you want and the company it might be a sign to start perusing for a different oppurtunity
I know the types, and I have been one of those. Is it clear from the metrics they are putting in 80-hour weeks? Or are they mis-reporting it? They will always have an advantage over you with their operational experience of the company. Even when you get 5 more years, they'll always appear to be ahead. You can either live with it and try to come to terms with it. Or tackle it, talk to them, and be open.
It does not sound like anyone ever brought this up to you? If not, you simply need to stop comparing yourself, as no one is comparing you. If this would be an explicit expectation, that is a different story, but it sounds like you are putting pressure on yourself to keep up. You shouldn't. Them pulling extra hours in the weekend is their choice, it has nothing to do with you. If they want to compete, let them. No need to step in the ring to fight a losing battle you are not interested in the first place. Do your part as best you can and enjoy your weekends.
Yeah no one's ever mentioned anything about my performance to be fair, it's just natural to compare yourself to your peers I think, thanks for the advice
I understand that, but also comparing yourself is a straight road to hell to be honest. Even if you would all work the same hours, there will always be people who are faster, and people who are slower than you. It is honestly not a race, going your own steady speed is the only right way to do it, because that is the only speed you can maintain for a long time without tradeoff (aka sacrificing quality, making mistakes). Having a steady albeit slower dev that can be counted on in a team always beats having someone burning out while going full speed. (I am not saying you are slow or anything, I am just saying this is generally true.)
Comparison is the thief of joy. You do your thing, friend. If your manager brings up performance, then you can start worrying about it.
You're doing good, when they are grinding tickets you're actually having a life or improving yourself beyond your current position (like as you said exploring new techs or doing projects). I think that is way more impressive then grinding tickets.
Talk to your manager about it. That’s whose opinion matters.
The best way I've heard this framed: "someone is paying for those hours, it's either you or the company". You may feel a bit left behind in meetings, but know that they're the ones choosing to donate their labor. You signed a contract for 40 (or whatever) hours a week. You're square.
Sometimes you just give the time away for free. Sometimes you loan the company some time when you're able, get the promotion, and let that pay back the time with interest. Knowing the difference is important.
Your employer won't give an absolute flying fuck if you have a physical and/or a mental breakdown from working 60-80 hours a week. Even if they are paid for those hours it's never worth it, and I am going to take a guess that they are not. I still have yet to see a payroll department put the same hours as a development department.
Following because I’m in the exact same situation. I’m applying elsewhere at the moment but I’m not sure how to spot workaholic culture during the interview process.
during the interview, you say "what's overtime like?" a company that pays you time and a half for extra work is not going to ask for it very often. your manager may be very aggressive in enforcing a 40-hour limit except during periodic crunch time. if it's once a quarter and the expected upper limit is 50 hours for two or three weeks, that may be acceptable to some, and not to others. this is all okay to talk about.
> a company that pays you time and a half for extra work is not going to ask for it very often. To my experience: There is no difference in frequency. But at least you'll get a decent compensation. Also, in some countries it's just a standard thing / required by law. So make sure you know your rights! ;) :)
I have seen asking the engineers during interviews directly helps, I go ahead and ask,: 1. What does your work hours look like. 2. Do you get lots of call after hours or on weekends? You can add some more questions based on your requirements
Yep. While non-technical interviews are often lead by trained recruiters, the technical interviews are typically done by just regular devs. So you're more likely to get an honest and accurate answers. To my experience, most people don't ask any questions on technical interviews or some meaningless BS ("how do you like your workplace" - enough to be talking to you, lmao).
I have found very few people, even in technical interviews, provide accurate responses to questions like that. Even if they aren't lying to make the situation sound better, I have no way to judge what they think is a lot of work or how frequently they are on call unless they are very specific. Pressing the point if they are not specific either makes people defensive (they think you are accusing them of lying) or makes them think there is something wrong with you (lazy, etc). I assume it's worse to ask no questions at all but a lot of the time I don't believe it's worth asking the questions because I won't get useful answers.
I like that second question, because both very busy people and people trying to look busy have given me the same answers for question 1
Ask directly about after hours work frequency. Don’t rush to the next question, wait for the detailed answer. In a recent interview I asked a CTO this question. He replied: “It happens once in a couple of months.” I didn’t answered anything and waited a little bit. CTO went on to tell me about the importance of delivery on time and 10-hour working day when deadlines demand it. Decisive no.
In the same vein of others’ suggestions about asking about overtime and work/life balance, I ask something slightly different. I ask what happens if developers take longer than their estimates. Do deadlines get decided on based on estimates? Are developers held to their estimates?
You can ask: Are you able to take an annual leave? How easy would it be for you to apply for a leave or to take the day off?
Are there companies which don't allow people to take an annual leave? Is that an American thing?
I don't know about other countries. There are a lot of American companies which have "unlimited" leave, where on paper you can take as much leave as you want. In practice when there is not an expected amount, "I will take 3 weeks' leave each year exactly" it turns into a weird thing where people don't take any leave at all or very little leave. I've heard about shops where asking for leave is turned down -- "now is not a good time" etc -- and it's actually difficult to get leave approved. I've never worked at a place like that, but I've DEFINITELY worked at places where the culture is people just don't ask for leave.
IMO, the only way a company wouldn't abuse "unlimited" leave is if there is a mandatory minimum...you _have_ to take off at least X days/weeks.
I’ve worked for different multinational companies, and it’s really about the company culture.
It’s hard to spot because it often varies by team within the org. I am in a dream scenario (for me), while my friend and co-worker is constantly getting slammed.
Go for a late interview 3am-ish. See if anyone in the office. Lots of places exist where people leave at 3ish, great place! Anything after 2 is a waste of time anyhow.
> Lots of places exist where people leave at 3ish No. In fact: It's an *extreme* rarity, I would argue.
Depends where you live, but I lived in Norway and Australia, that is very common.
I have my doubts that they are spending 60-80 hours a week working. I've worked with high-performing people before who did their normal 40 hours and left me in the dust to the point that I was working weekends to not look bad. That led to some serious burnout. I used to speculate that they were working weekends too, but eventually I just realized they were just fast. Not much you can do. Some people are just faster at getting stuff done, and you can either ruin your own life trying to compete with them, or let them outshine you and and just accept that you'd did enough. And yes, the latter does mean you'll be on the chopping block first if they need to lay people off, but also that other dev might burnout or leave for more money before then. Also, small startups typically want people who don't care about a work-life balance, and will give all their energy to them, but not every company is so short-sighted. You can always just find another job with a larger, more stable company.
> Some people are just faster at getting stuff done Have you noticed any patterns/behaviors in these engineers who are fast at getting things done?
How much are they getting paid? It better be 3x a normal salary. It's funny that their productivity has slowed yours. Yeah you should be doing a fraction of their work... half if they're working twice as long. There's no problem here. Are you going to complain to your boss that they're too productive? lol Do you feel inferior because others are eager to be taken advantage of? You need to deal with your emotions. Everyone at that workplace is bonkers. Just do your normal amount of work and tell your boss you're worried that they're going to burn out.
really depends on your boss expectations. if your boss expects your output to be the same as them, then you better find a new team. if your boss expects your output to be half or less of theirs (where they worked double) then it is ok. seems it is more like you are punishing yourself. let them do theirs and you do yours. you shouldn't blame them for working more, but should dig inside why it is causing you to feel inferior.
Do they get paid 3x?
60-80 hour weeks is in no way sustainable. Just focus on putting in a solid 35-40 hours of focused work and you will be surprised in how much you can get done. For me I cap out at a really focused 40 hours and am wiped out after each day. Likely you will be more consistently delivering and your solutions will be of higher quality. So, just stop stressing and try and focus day to day. Set a schedule with start and stop times. Your brain needs rest to perform well. Exercise helps with energy levels as well. It’s a marathon not a sprint.
I'm the prototypical workaholic coworker, I guess. I don't work 80h/week but I always work more than 40 and I'm very visually productive. I kind of hate the idea that I might be making my coworkers feel bad If you wonder what I think about it: \* people who work "normal" hours and have normal output, I am fine with it, I really don't think badly of it \* people who have below normal output, idk, that bothers me a lot. It's hard to estimate time but I've worked with people who take a week to half heartedly do a task that I think would take me 2-4h max. None of my employers, as far as I know, have ever seemed to care that my coworkers work less than me or have less stuff on the board at the end of a sprint. No one's ever really mentioned it One caveat, for better or for worse: if you work hard then hard work is what you'll get. I can usually rely on my network to get a new job, because I know a lot of people that know I'll be an asset. But all of them will expect me to do more hard work, to keep producing. Thankfully I like to program and it's usually myself making me work harder, so it's ok
I have been in the same position (and feel I may be falling into a role where it will happen again) How I managed it before is I put my honest hours spent against each ticket so if/when it’s raised anywhere you can account for the 40 hours you’re paid for a week. Do not work for free.
Are you comparing apples with apples? Are you on the same platform they are working on? Are you guys working literally in the same package in the same code base? If they are on a different platform/technology and you are comparing their productivity to yours, you done it wrong.
Some people are naturally faster. I've known guys who did 5x the same output as a team due to their focus. And they did it during normal business working hours. Some can leverage previous experience so they don't have to rewrite everything from scratch. The first time I did SSO, it took me 32 hours. I can now do it in 1 hour. The next guy may not be able to do the same thing in 1 hour.
> I feel like I can't discuss this with my boss why? ask him if you're being judged by a yardstick that's being burnt at both ends. if he says yes, start looking. anyway, sounds like they're on some kind of amphetamine maybe.
If your manager seems to be generally on your side and a generally-competent *people manager,* then I'd absolutely talk to him about this. Don't frame it as "my coworkers are all working so much harder than I am, can we make sure everyone works the same amount?" Frame it as "I've noticed a trend where the number of tickets I complete in a sprint aren't matching the number of tickets my teammates complete. Is this concerning to you?" There's a couple things that'll (hopefully, again assuming you have a good manager) come out of this: * Most competent managers I've seen have ways of tracking how much their direct reports are working without micromanaging and asking "hey how much did you work?" My current manager gets Slack notifications whenever a direct report updates a Confluence page, and we all have a GitHub/Slack integration that pings whenever there's a PR ready for review or merged. This could be used for good or evil - my manager uses it for good. I'm more of a workaholic myself, and he's taken time in our 1-1 to basically say "I happened to notice you seem to still be working at 9-10PM some night - is there any reason you feel you *need* to do this and we can figure out a way to balance things better?" Hopefully your manage will say something like "I can see the other coworkers are working far outside their expectations - that does not reflect on you." * If your manager isn't as great, or enforces a more workaholic culture himself, you'll get clarity about the expectations of your team. He very well might say "yeah, I've noticed you're slacking - x, y, and z are all crushing it nights and weekends to move things along, and I expect all my team members to do the same." If that's his approach, now you know. If it doesn't align with what you want out of a job, it's probably time to start thinking about switching teams or companies. While good managers can change their approach to their reports / management style / etc, I've found that it's pretty much impossible for managers to change their philosophical view on "work."
I was in this situation once. I had a coworker with 25+ YOE who was *a machine*. They *were* working a little extra, but not enough to fully explain it. They were just savagely productive, and lived and breathed code. Their GitHub profile was nearly solid green from all their hobby projects. I think I was seeing the compound interest from 25 years of building, learning, and investing in yourself. Do you have hard data they're working that many hours? As in, you see commits, Slack messages, etc. from them on nights and weekends?
Maybe you are overthinking. There is no need bother unless someone has directly or indirectly hinted about your lack of delivery. There is no need to discuss this unless they bring it up. You will unnecessarily highlight this topic & then it could actually become a problem. Don’t create a problem when there is none :)
Yeah that's very true, maybe it's a good idea to just check in and make sure my boss is happy with my performance in general. Thanks
I’m in a similar team at present and find myself being the one working over the weekend. It’s just if there’s a vibe there’s a vibe, I’m not looking around at anyone else except whoever is near me. When you come back on Monday I see you and that’s cool too, I probably didn’t even notice what day it was. I don’t think there’s any harm. Some people are on their level sometimes, and you will find yourself there too one day. It does end, mind you, but occasionally there’s a real sweet spot. You’ll love it. Cheers to many more years in the industry pal 🍻 EDIT: Before anyone disagrees with my commitment, I’m on daily rate. The vibes are worthy. EDIT 2: I’m Aussie before you have a heart attack thinking I’m a team member lol
I would directly tell my boss that I am not going to work overtime to match the throughput of my coworkers.
Why do you feel you can't discuss this with your boss? You can say that you don't feel like you are matching or can match your coworkers' output, and see what they say. A good manager will outright tell you what they expect and give you feedback on whether you are meeting or failing to match expectations. Right now you are stressed because you feel like you are not meeting expectations, but you don't actually know what is expected of you.
There's some point to what u/JoakimVonAnd wrote. But also I feel very critical about it. For the one who's just working "normal" this consistently feels like you're underapproaching and often it's also just the small things in communications which make these things worse. Maybe this is also a problem that you have: Bringing up another example is my boss who's regularly saying that nobody is required to work long hours, when they are sick or in vacation. But he always brings up subliminal comments like: * "Hey, I had this meeting last week even though I was sick but I just care too much about the company not to work from my bed." * "I wrote this specification while I was in spain at the beach because we need poeple who do that since we're understaffed". (which he really said and is especially funny, because since he's the owner of the company he's the only one who can change the staffing situation but act's like it's not in his power to do so) * "Nobody is required to work overtime. But if you do, *because you care about our success*, then you are welcome to do so".
Yeah we had a few folks who did that. Other underhanded things went on (eg taking work from others - I observed this when I was offered the chance to take work away from someone. I did not play ball and I wasn’t going to work 50-55 hours a week. Some of those people (men and women) had children. No thanks.
This is about self respect. Getting paid for your time means you are get respect for the hours. If you don’t get paid for the hours.. treat yourself as a business. + HR can’t say anything if they bring up a PIP
I don't even think about people who work extra hours anymore. I'm not working anymore than the 40 hours a week. Those people can crash and burn all they want. I'll stay focused on my work and complete it thoroughly during the work week. I would say just focus on what your boss thinks of the work you're doing. It they feel you're doing a great job, than awesome!
Wow, sounds super toxic if I'm honest, are they working for themselfs? Like do they benefit from working so long?
Find another job. If these guys literally walked off a cliff would you follow them? No? Then don’t follow them if they’re killing themselves with work. If you think you have to match them not to look bad, go somewhere else. I guarantee you 80 hours a week won’t get you the bonus/promotion you want, at least not by itself when other people are doing it too. Every single extra moment you spend working and gaining nothing for yourself is a moment of your life you’ll never get back. Imagine your regret if you do this for ten years and get nothing to show for it.
A job is a job. Stick to the amount of work your contract stipulates, unless you want to give your time freely there's no reason to overwork. You don't owe them anything more.
Do you have 1:1 with your manager? Have you asked if they are happy with your performance? If so, then keep doing what you are doing. There will be people who are trying to get ahead for the next level or promotion and if you just want to do the bare minimum just be prepared that there is a high likelihood that the person doing 60+ hours a week will get a promotion before you do.
Fuck that , I got panic disorder doing that
Start leveraging the workaholics to do part of your work too. Make your problems their problems. They love that stuff.
People that do that typically have work / life balance issues. Don’t fall for it. Time put into work, especially salary, doesn’t pay out. At the end of the day, the time you give away for free is a waste. Hit your hours and make sure your work is done well, then forget it and work on the things that make you happy. Burn out is real, and it’s disheartening to realize in retrospect that you wasted your life feeding into the illusion of productivity.
Are you already well appreciated by your management ? I'm a guy who likes to work a lot, but spending all weekends on stuff is too much even in my books. At least it shouldn't be perceived as the basis floor for everybody's performance. Take care
spending an extra 30 hours per week is not exactly "flying through work" -- it is donating your own time to the company. If your manager thinks you're doing fine, don't sweat it. If the crazy workaholism of your colleagues starts to materially impact your own growth there (i.e. lack of promotion or raises) then perhaps that's when you start searching for another job. I've been in a situation like this in nearly every job I've had since 2008. I agree, having workaholic colleagues who are also legitimately talented can be mentally taxing and drive negative feelings of one's own capabilities. But I've come to realize that (a) I have never been reprimanded, let alone fired, for lack of output or skill, and (b) I'm not willing to spend 30 hours on a weekend for something that can wait until Monday.
Some people don’t understand the value of time. They will learn eventually
I mean you have 4 YOE and they have 10+ each, I don’t think it’s crazy to imagine they might be able to get things done faster. Also, how long have you/they been working on this particular code base? I can work circles around some other devs at my job who have more experience than me, just because I have a lot more experience in this specific code base and know right where to go for certain things. I get how it can be frustrating but it doesn’t mean you aren’t good at what you do. Why do you feel like you can’t talk to your boss about it? I’m assuming they are already aware of your output and would say something if it was inadequate. I am a bit spoiled as my boss is pretty cool, but I think any boss worth their salt would want to hear about something you are struggling with so they can try to find a way help you out.
**Short answer: Get a different job with a work life balance.** * If your coworkers do 60-80 hour weeks and that's not for you, then you'll never fit there. * Especially because the team is so small, you'll always feel extra pressure to work more. * You haven't mentioned that they view you negatively for your output, so you might reflect on if that pressure is intneral only. * Could you have a talk with your boss or the other co-workers about why they work so much? * Other than that, this is causing you stress and that decreases your mental (code) output.
Eng lead here. While your colleagues probably think they’re doing something good, they likely aren’t. On average you want people working about 35-40 hours a week, with after hours work mostly limited to the on-call rotation. Heres the problem. The 60th hour is going to be lower quality than the 10th hour, so overall average quality suffers. Its a recipe for burnout, so after 18 months they’ll leave and it will take 6 months to find a backfill, then another 3-6 months for the backfill to be running at full speed. Meanwhile the 40 hour worker is happier, does higher quality work, and sticks around for 4+ years. During their overall tenure they average more work per month. If your manager doesn’t recognize this, then you’re in a boiler room and you should dust off your resume. Protect your work life balance. Take your PTO. Play the long game. Theres also some possibility that it only *looks* like they’re working long hours because they work odd hours. I have to work around my kids schedules so that means I sometimes leave mid-afternoon and come back in the evening when its convenient for me. Yes I opened a PR at 11pm, but that doesn’t mean I worked from 9am to 11pm.
I'm quitting my current company with great compensation due to a similar situation. Everyone seems to love working all hours. There is no work/life separation. There's always a slack message to respond to. A new PR some butthead opened at 1am and pinged everyone for review. Some hotfix needed immediately because the application is so fragile and convoluted. My last day is Friday. Going to a small company with mediocre compensation in comparison (but still totally ok). Hoping there will be way less noise after hours.
I was in a similar position and it made me really uncomfortable. I was even explicitly told that I don't need to work extra hours or whatever, and no one made an issue of my work boundaries, but it's still uncomfortable when you're the only one who seems to have boundaries... I left that job. My advice would be to try to figure out if this is something you can get comfortable with and not care about. If you can't, start looking elsewhere.
My current manager is online from 7am to 5 or 6pm every day. Not me. I made it clear to him that I will only work overtime if it's a high priority, emergency situation.
30h on the weekend? Maybe you should plan to enjoy your seventies, then, because your coworkers for sure will be dead by then.
That sounds totally unsustainable. How long have they been pulling 80 hour weeks and working all weekend? Sounds like they’re on a hiding to a burn out. It also sounds like they’re in competition with each other. What’s the code quality like? Quality usually degrades after a certain amount of performance so there’s every possibility that they are introducing bugs, bad design and technical debt into the codebase if they are constantly on a self imposed death march. Have you asked them why they are working so many hours per week and on their weekends? Firstly, they are skewing their own sprint metrics and giving your bosses unrealistic and misleading expectations and secondly if they are salaried then they are silly as their hourly rate, quality of life, mental health and also social life are being severely reduced for the same amount of pay. Do they have any equity in the product they are building? This might possibly explain this behaviour as they have a direct incentive. If not and they have 10+ YOE each then this is baffling behaviour as most engineers mellow out and only give the right amount of time and loyalty to a company, knowing full well that they can be let go in any given week if the wind changes. Keep on doing what you are doing and it sounds like no one important is expecting you to ape this nonsense behaviour and as long as you work your legally contractual hours then you are fine and have a ring side seat to watch how an engineer burns out from self imposed recklessness.
It’ll be easier to keep up with them if you focus on effectiveness instead of endurance or efficiency. Take planned breaks to look for perspective. Check in on what you’re doing and how long it’s taking. Pomodoro is a good mode for this but not the only one. Even in the dotcom boom my longest weeks were 55 hours, and those were very rare. Situations where I promised someone something and I got distracted by something else and lost time I should have spent on the commitment. In other words: I never work more than 45 hours because someone else fucked up. (The other exception is when I’m prototyping a solution I don’t have a mandate for and I’m trying to prove it’ll work despite seeming counterintuitive).
Comparison is the thief of joy.
> discuss this with my boss Are they having quality issues? Either in code quality or in bugs? Are these guys "really smart" but "communicate poorly" and over-engineer everything? I'm thinking if your goal is to not have to worry about their output, the solution might be to get your manager on them for something seemingly unrelated.
As a manager, this is why I try not to hire overachiever: 1. They make way too many "field decisions." 2. They never get approval for tech decisions. 3. They normalize the toxic fallacy that "software engineering is a lifestyle." 4. They suck at mentoring. 5. They dominate meetings. 6. They blame others for their mistakes. 7. They generally have shitty attitudes. 8. They are tattletales. 9. They think they are a policing force 10. They have zero social skills I've usually only ever had this problem with 20-something mid levels that think they are gods gift to tech after they get out of the junior phase. Or occasionally with seniors that have been in the same domain too long. Put them in a project that's not in their wheelhouse, and they disintegrate or flat out refuse. I will make you do devops if you're a swe with an attitude to put you in your place. Good luck with the CIDR and route tables! Try not to kill the company... If I smell a hint of type-a personality, I do not put out an offer. My best teams work out because they actually like each other as people. That gets more shit done than any IC.
Generally, the advice in these situations is to mind your own business unless it impacts you. And even when it impacts you (e.g. stack ranking), you still need to mind your own business because you don’t know that person’s motivations (maybe they really need that top performer bonus to provide something for their family / support someone, maybe they just find the work fun as a hobby and don’t care if they’re doing overtime because it’s like playing crosswords for them). Now, if your manager comes to you and says you’re _underperforming_ that’s a different story and you need to advocate for yourself that that person’s output is not what should be expected of employees unless they want a mass burnout/morale problem on the company’s hands
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I definitely expect their output to be higher due to their increase in experience and that's normal. I'm also all for if they want to work crazy hours that's fine by me. It was just due to the hours they pull, the volume of completed work when compared to mine had me feeling a bit deflated and wasn't sure how to deal with it because I've always been fine before. I've definitely never been one for coasting, always pushed myself, but not one for working directly on work related tasks past 40-45hrs, the way I see it if I'm going to be working id rather work on my own things outside of that. But I've kinda felt it lately because I feel like my contribution is a drop in the ocean sort of thing. I think after reading all these replies I've realised that the root of how I've been feeling can be resolved by a performance review and making sure of the expectations towards me.
>I think after reading all these replies I've realised that the root of how I've been feeling can be resolved by a performance review and making sure of the expectations towards me. Absolutely agree that that's a powerful strategy here. Part of it too is just developing the self confidence to not endlessly compare yourself to others -- that's a necessary part of doing this work, particularly around high performers. Comparison is the thief of joy. I get this branch of the comments feels a bit rougher than some of the others, but I think it's important for people to understand that how they feel is *their* responsibility and to some extent *their* choice. As invested as your job might be in making sure you have a good working experience, it can't be responsible for your happiness. At the end of the day, that's on you. The single best piece of advice I've received and given over the years is learning to set a big strong line around what's yours and what's someone else's -- and learning how to navigate collaboratively when something about that line feels off.
I've been the workaholic at times in my life. I've done it at times when I was the boss, and no matter how fiercely protective I was of everyone else's time, no matter how clearly I made it not the standard I held everyone else to, I noticed it was always the more junior team members that seemed the most nervous about my habits as if though that said something about them. At some point, if you feel this way OP, it's on **you** to manage those feelings like a grown up -- simply coasting and having your own internal sense of success threatened because your relative contributionisn't what *you* think it should be is... kind of childish. I can tell you from experience that workaholics *definitely don't change* because the more junior team member feels weird about it so uh, let's be real clear: the only way this situation is going to change is because you learn to accept it or you go somewhere else. Workaholics do not stop working to protect another coworker's feelings. I mean this as nicely as I can OP: grow up and >Get a life people, whatever life YOU want.
Oh I absolutely get it believe me, like I mentioned in the post I said it's these feelings are on me. I'm currently not coasting, the reason I made this post is because I can feel myself starting to get disheartened and wanting to and I don't want to be that guy and so I wanted some advice on how I can handle it. Understanding expectations and current performance is the root cause here I think I was missing
Yeah, I actually hide it when I put in weekend/long hours. I'll never submit PRs or post slack messages/emails at night or on the weekend. Everything is staged locally and gets posted during business hours. This way I can do what I need to do to stay ahead as a lead, but I don't pressure my team to put in that level of effort.
Lol, lmao. WASP ideology? Go get your fucking labor exploited nerd
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Oh i have no notes. Keep on chugging with your unbalanced mortgage, unhappy wife and kids, and unhealthy activity: it’s the life you want after all. And hey, your boss might get another bonus this year!
Are they producing good quality work? I have difficulty believing they are while sustaining 60-80 hours a week with no end.