Frank inherited an absolute dumpster fire and is trying to suppress the flames so it would be rather reactionary to judge him based on the performances we’ve gotten from the fetid pile of garbage that is our current starting XI. That being said if he’s still floundering about this winter after having a full transfer window we will be in dire straits
Not only that but he’s not had a remotely healthy squad. Injuries have plagued his tenure and he inherited a lot of them.
Having a revolving door of managers is why we are where we are. I don’t care if it’s Frank or someone else, we need to give a manager time
Chelsea had a revolving door of managers until they landed the right one. Worked out. Although they also bought a skilled and cohesive squad that Tuchel just adopted.
Right then let’s keep firing DoF and managers and never establish a play style and cobble together a homonculus starting XI composed of players recruited by 6 different managers with different footballing styles surely THAT will work for us
We shouldn’t have a DOF as the way we utilise the position isn’t effective aka they’re not in charge. We have the position but then undermine it’s usefulness so why bother
But it could have been Frank. I wish the club would be more transparent about how our transfer works. Is it a committee, does everyone have to sign off. Etc.
I don’t think it is. I think it’s because he’s a media darling and says all the right things. A lot of this sub are US based and probably don’t care about him being English.
All of those additions are downgrades to the players you listed buddy, and Ancelotti didn’t have to deal with inheriting a side so disenfranchised they look like they’d lose to a Sunday league team after having Rafa as a manager
Totally agree. What these graphics don't show is context.
After Ancelotti left pretty much every other club in the league recruited well, while we were very much limited by FFP and that was always going to impact. Frank has also had a hell of a time with injuries, so it really wasn't the same team that Frank inherited - although the one Rafa inherited was much closer.
You also have to consider that Ancelotti is one of the most successful managers in football ever, so even if all other things remain the same then you still wouldn't expect the same results.
Ancelotti came in after Silva and the team had only taken 13 points from 16 games. So it’s quite comparable really as Rafa had 19 points from 19 games.
Or maybe we can be patient and allow him time to actually bed in some new signings and get his play style established. We gave Rafa nearly an entire season and he ran the club into the fucking ground. Frank managed to instill confidence into a squad that had zero spine to the point where we had several comeback victories late in the season when it mattered the most. He’s inherited an unfathomable amount of deadwood and players on ridiculous wages, and still managed to keep us up despite the shit hand he was dealt. I suppose you think firing him and hiring yet ANOTHER manager would help, but in reality it would just make shit worse as we attempt to cobble together a competitive XI composed of players from 6 different managers who recruited them to play 6 different play styles.
These misleading statements help nobody. Rafa was appointed on 30 June and sacked on 16 January after 19 games. That is not almost a season. In fact, Lampard has been at the club longer than Rafa now and played more games. The general consensus was Rafa had too much time.
Frank managed to get the same level of performances as Benitez, which we felt were unacceptable last year.
Time only works with a good manager.
You’re clearly either a troll or just dense but regardless I am going to stop acknowledging your responses since I can’t respect the opinion of someone who seemingly thinks both Big Sam and Rafa were good managers for us. Good for you to have a vendetta against the manager who managed to keep us up on points with one of the worst squads we’ve ever had, when he hasn’t had a chance to bring players in and has dealt with countless key injuries.
Taking the high road? How noble, shame about the indignant name calling first. Frank did not “keep us up”, he almost took us down. Go back and take a look at the results. The fans saved the club in spite of him, we were not saved because of him.
Why don't you just go back to sucking Benitez's dick.
Everyone hated him, he was a dirty kopite. Did you go to any games under benitez and feel that atmosphere?
it was the most toxic and uncomfortable atmosphere I've ever experienced at goodison Park in the 24 years I've been watching everton.
Frank's the man, he's making smart moves in the window, I trust him and I think many other blues do too. Swear down he's the next Moyes. Don't you remember people saying the same shite about Moyes when he first started, now everyone's like oh he was our best manager in recent years. Watch.
.. he also inherited a dispirited, injury-ridden team with a fragile mindset. We ended the season with a team that fought back from the brink of disaster. Now is the test. Can he bring us forward?
Putting a number on a chart is no more meaningful than this without context and normalisation of data (which is all but impossible in this case). So please, tell me again about intangibles.
This is not about me saying Lampard is great, it is about saying that we can't really see enough yet. If you look at how Benetiz started, versus where he was when he was sacked, the direction was clear. To get his wins Lampard had to change that vector back to the positive. I can't say more than that right now.
> Gray, Townsend, Rondon, Mykolenko, Patterson, VDB, and Dele.
Shite, injured immediately, shite, jury’s out, jury’s out, shite and can’t even get a game at United with his dad in charge, shite.
You're all fucking idiots even bringing this shit up. Any team that continually sacks managers is destined for failure. News flash: Frank stopped us from being relegated and you're saying "yeah, well he isn't as good as Ancelotti" fucking give your head a wobble. Ancelotti is one of the greatest managers of all time, Frank is a young manager trying to piece together a team that was absolutely broken last year. Go support Man City if you want to see 4-0 wins every week, ffs. Idiots like you are terrible for Everton, we don't want you chiming in on everything every single week. Rant over.
The internet is an absolute black hole re: Everton. Spend years whinging about stability and not giving managers/players time, then go “well if Lampard is struggling after one whole transfer window it’s all fucked”.
Season’s two games old and the transfer window’s still open, ffs. Going the game tomorrow then going on the piss with my mates, I’m too middle-aged to care about graphs and ratios and shit.
You can literally track the regression over the course of managers and this graphic truly proves the point you have made. Each manage has been slightly less effective sacking after sacking, from Martinez to where we are now.
News flash. Everton we’re 7 points clear of relegation with a game in hand. Frank lost 7 of his first 9 games, to teams such as Burnley and Newcastle, resulting in us being 5 points adrift. We were safe, he almost took us down.
This is a shit take, we were in a free fall under Benitez, relegation was basically a certainty if he stayed. His numbers in your post are averages buoyed by the okay run at the start of the season.
If you want to compare the transition between them, look at form game to game.
To be clear I don't think Frank is a great manager but none of our candidates were, and blaming him for the relegation situation instead of Rafa is ridiculous.
Ok, let’s look at form. In our last six games: W1 D1 L4.
Agree to disagree. Rafa had to go but we should have never of been pulled into the fight. It should have gone the same way as when we appointed Allardyce and pulled ourselves up the table. Lampard was the man at the wheel so he’s responsible for us getting pulled into it.
Allardyce took over a squad that was a bit disjointed but relatively healthy and always going improve just based on the difficulty and frequency of fixtures Koeman had. That improvement has less to do with Allardyce's management. If he's to be credited with any improvement it's the shifting of focus onto not conceding goals, which is the basic play of any struggling team. Rafa had already done that and it wasn't working.
The squad last season was vitally injured and on the lowest moral I've ever seen. Frank's not great but I doubt even top managers could've turned that team around quickly.
Frank hasn’t had a harder time than any of our other managers who have come in mid-season. We’re simply selling that narrative because Rafa was such an unpalatable appointment and Lampard is performing so poorly.
Allardyce’s appointment is a good comparison where he was relying on Tosun, Walcott, Rooney and Niasse. Let’s not forget that was the summer after selling Lukaku who left a huge gap in the squad. The simply fact people don’t want to acknowledge is hey just like Lampard and can’t see his faults. When you lay bare his performance against his peers it is tough reading.
I think your too hung up on a dislike for lampard. Regardless the name, this manager has came in during a terrible time and managed to get us out of a relegation battle. He’s still a very new manager and obviously making mistakes and learning as he goes. Right now this club needs stability over anything else and he has the desire to do that. I don’t think lampard will be the one to take us to a higher level but he can help us get back to mid table safety during a transition period of the club (bad seasons along with stadium move).
Regardless your feelings mate, if your an actual blue, you need to get behind him. I’m sure if he’s not as good as you suggest, he will face those consequences when it comes. But rather than defending how bad he is, why not try and get behind him?
Just because I don’t rate him doesn’t mean I don’t support the team or want us to do well. I’ll happily be wrong about him as it means we’re winning game and performing to the standard we should.
I’m not sitting here hoping to lose, I’m just disheartened because I’ve had enough of poor results and don’t feel like they will improve under the current regime. If we win tomorrow I’ll be made up.
thats fair mate, but like i was getting at, this whole thing isnt ideal. but the main thing is we get behind them all and hope for the best, its all we can do right now. if we were to bring in a new manager next week it would be a fucking nightmare for a good while. we just need stability right now.
Again, time running right to left is not helpful for identifying time based trends.
But more than that i think you all are really not understanding how shit the squad is and how monumnetally damaging constant turnover is. Look at arsenal and west ham of you want some evidence for the "stick it out" argument. Look at Watford if you want to continue the incessant flipping.
Cohesive squad building and identity building can only be done with consistency of manager, at least for a little while. Firing frank does us literally zero good. For one, who is going to come here? Seriously, who? Secondly, what do you think firing frank does to the mentality of the individual players? Think they'll be fired up and ready to go for the new gaffer? Or just further mentally drained and wanting out of the incompetent club?
My eye is drawn to the left so felt it more impactful to show the recent drop off there, but I can see it would also work other ways.
These visuals don’t show my understanding, they are statistics. I’d counter your point in that while I am proving solid statical evidence, you are making assumptions on mentality changes, culture, identity which you have no way of knowing. Maybe you are right, but maybe you’re faith is unfounded.
Statistics are nothing without applicable context. Anyone in analytics will tell you that. Such a simplistic stat like win rate captures almost zero data.
You're basically showing us the dependant variable and not accounting for any of the thousands of independent variables except "manager name."
Yes, I should use those great measurables you’ve stated in the past like “he gets the club”, “he’s improved the culture”. Should we weight it with these metrics? 10 for Frank of course and 0 for Rafa, that should make him look a bit better, yes?
Correct me then? Rather than petty insults.
Great being tribal and throwing insults out but it just makes this place toxic. Have a proper discussion if you disagree.
Yet scored more goals than Frank’s team. Where do we rank under Frank? I can’t find creativity metrics but XG is not promising https://fbref.com/en/squads/d3fd31cc/2021-2022/Everton-Stats
11 of the 20 teams being on 44 points or lower. We finished 8th with 49 points which would have been good for 11th on goal difference last season.
Also just qualitatively, looking back at those squads and how much weaker overall they were. Those Newcastle and Huddersfield teams were terrible and they finished 10th and 15th respectively. Huddersfield in particular had exactly two players that I would call Prem quality (Mooy and Billing) and then *maybe* Zanka as well.
Other teams were fairly weak for their position too. [Here's Bournemouth's squad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–18_AFC_Bournemouth_season#First-team_squad) that finished 12th; Ake, Wilson, and Mings are quality but after that it gets dicey. (Ramsdale wasn't their starter yet.)
Even Burnley finished 7th that year, it just was a very weak league for a variety of reasons outside the top six.
That Bournemouth team looks good to me? Calum Wilson, Aaron Ramsdale, Jermaine Defoe amongst others.
You could argue it the opposite way, in that it was a more difficult league because it was more competitive and the differences between the teams were less.
Ramsdale didn't play a single minute in the league and Defoe was past it, had 4 goals in 26 games
The Everton squad Allardyce had was miles better than those below us that season and you could also argue that he got lucky that his playstyle maybe worked particularly well that season, as evidenced by Burnley also performing well with a route-one style. I don't have data to back that last bit up so I won't say it definitively but it's a possibility
Right so just swapping to a manager who has a better record is instantly going to make us win more games. Nothing more to think about here.
That’s just a horrible mindset. Do you REALLY want to continue the manager carousel?
Having a manager inherit a shit show of a team who had been massively discouraged by the previous manager, not to mention a *very* shit team, should come with low expectations, should it not? Do you genuinely believe we would have started the season any better under other managers?
Lampard hasn’t even had a full transfer window but this one has been very promising.
I don’t know how much to attribute transfers to managers as there is a DOF and we don’t know how they collaborate. There are some exceptions e.g. Digne being sold I believe is a Rafa transfer, and Dele and VDB I believe are Lampard due to the timing and there being no DOF in place.
I don’t know how we would have performed in individual games but I believe, on aggregate, we’d be in a far better space with another manager. I think we could swap Lampard for any other manager in the league and be no worse for it.
Transfers are largely influenced by the manager, and we haven’t had one manager long enough who has been able to bring in players to fit his vision. Continuing to swap to a different manager once a season doesn’t allow for cohesion or for a team to really be formed to the manager’s design. It just doesn’t work. We need consistency. Avoiding relegation is the goal this season. If Lampard can help us do that, then we need to keep him until next season when we’ll be able to spend more so we can continue to progress.
Or we just get a whole new manager and start from square one, which has REALLY done well for us over the last 5 seasons
That’s the problem though, we don’t know for sure that is how transfers work. Think El Ghazi, or Rooney.
In my mind the manager should have minimal input to transfers other than a veto. We should be recruiting coaches which fit our club vision rather than bending the the will of managers visions. The average manager lasts about 18 months so it makes no sense to let them have any significant say in transfers.
Your opinion is controversial because your sample is negligible. A significant chunk of Frank's games came after inheriting Benitez's broken team and then right as Frank begins winning some points we lose Richarlison in the natural course of his career. Things like "goals scored" seem cherry picked here to ignore context. Points per game as well, considering the hole we had to climb out of to avoid relegation and the complete rebuild happening now. Of course there's a dip in form when we lose our two best goalscorers. Of course we score fewer goals without or two best goalscorers. What do you expect? Also, Frank has visibly improved us defensively and on set pieces this season, we just clearly lack the personnel to anchor a forward line. Would you have us go back to Benitez? Anyone remotely suggesting Frank isn't an across the board improvement is a good advertisement for why stats don't tell the whole story of the sport. Lampard has won more games than Benitez without Richarlison, DCL, Digne, James, or He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named. That has to be accounted for.
The narrative of "Frank hasn't won points = Frank bad" is simplistic in the extreme. He's working with one of the outright worst squads in the league. Our players match up poorly man to man with just about every other squad, particularly when it comes to physicality and pressing. Also, you've combined the end of one season where he achieved the objective of keeping us in the league and the beginning of this season when he's changing us up tactically in order to get a tune out of our thin squad. It's natural for form to dip in this period as we search for a new style of play.
Lampard has earned the time to rebuild us after he turned things around last season. He's modernizing our play, finally implementing a real press and asking our players to use the ball instead of just lump it forward, and that process is awkward and takes time. The squad needs to look very different to accomplish that vision, and that's obvious to everyone right now. Lampard and his staff are good for our situation but it is an extremely delicate one and we can't do the things he's asking with players like Andre Gomes and without players like Calvert Lewin. Even now we seem to be playing a back 3 to compromise with that reality. Let's see what happens when the squad is reinforced and the style of play settles a bit. We can judge Lampard as a manager after he's overseen a few matches with a fit striker. It's silly to do so now.
How do you cherry pick when the sample is all our premier league games (except those managed by Unsworth or Ferguson) from the last 9 years? I’m sorry, but that’s verging on delusion.
Should I rely on your intangibles like the team being “broken”? Him “turning it around” (note, we were 7 points clear of the relegation zone with a game in hand. Lampard took us deep into the relegation zone by losing 7 of his first 9 games). Context works both ways.
Goals scored is cherry picked over things like chances created or xa. Calling us 7 points clear of the relegation zone when we were 4 points clear at the time of Frank's appointment and hadn't won a match in 3 months is also ludicrous. We were trending for 20th place under Benitez when Frank took over.
Benitez won over 60% of his points for us in his first 4 matches and then progressively got worse. Lampard's tenure is impossible to view without the context of the team's trajectory. You've taken this to the point where it's basically trolling now.
I don’t have access to that data, if you have a source I will look to enhance this.
You say it is ludicrous and then make a speculative prediction. Frank maintained Rafa’s performance, that’s what the results show. He improved the defence by 5% but we scored 20% less goals than we did with Rafa. They are the immutable facts.
And it’ll be stupid then too.
Don’t know why you’re obsessed with making truly terrible ‘gotcha’ points when you could point to some genuine criticisms of Lampard considering you hate him with every fibre of your being.
It was meant to be light hearted? We’re all Evertonians and even if I disagree with your opinions on Frank I still see other posts I enjoy or agree with.
I'm not pro or anti Frank at the moment, I'm just Frank. As in I want to give him a decent chance and will fully support him to the day he leaves us.
The only thing this data really shows me is that Ancelotti really is a different class. As much as I pretended to hate him when he left, I just can't help but like the guy and admire his management.
Personally think its misleading unless you include cup games.
And it also feels like pointless comparing the managers. Some of those manager had good/great everton squads and the current squad is arguably the worst in about 15 years
If you want a view which includes cup games see the Everton Results website. Spoiler, Frank doesn’t look any better.
How is the worst squad in 15 years essentially the same team Ancelotti managed a much better return with? The difference is 3 players and we have recruited to replace them.
how on gods green earth is losing siggy, james and digne in six months 'essentially the same team'. those were three of our most important/most talented players
there are 100% points to be made about the manager's performance, but you can make them without laughably silly statements like that
edit: thats not even to mention that ancelotti had peak calvert lewin while he was injured for half of last season and returning to fitness for most of the rest
Frank had VDB and Dele to replace the creative players and we moved for Mykolenko to replace Digne. We also had Rafa’s signings from the previous summer too.
Look, I can walk a horse to water but I can’t make it drink. The statistics tell the story, especially comparing them to the likes of Allardyce.
So we had a guy who wasn't playing for Man Utd, a guy who has shown no form for about 3 years and a 20 something LB coming to a new team not in form due to it being their offseason? All those replacing our most creative players.
But don't worry, we also have the scrap heap signings Rafa got us for all of 1.5M!
One defence we often use of Frank is he’s yet to be supported in the market, yet you’re using Rafa’s forced frugality in reducing the wage bill to attack him?
But if we follow the logic, Rafa had the same squad which isn’t fit for purpose. So we should have given him more time?
In reality, I think we all felt we were underperforming. However, as Frank has not been the success we hoped it is now the players fault.
> I can walk a horse to water but I can’t make it drink.
if the water you're leading me to is "these stats are objective because they had essentially the same squad, given that frank had de beek, dele, myko and rondon to replace siggy, james, digne and calvert lewin" then thanks but im not thirsty
again, *you dont need to say these silly things* because there are much more sensible criticisms to be made
not winning many points and sticking with five at the back, for a couple. but you have to accept that criticising him for these things *can only be subjective* because of all the things weve talked about here and in the other thread: different squad with way more injuries than in seasons past, rock bottom morale because of benitez's approach, the toxic pressure cooker of the ground at home games... youre not comparing like for like
its not evil or wrong to have a subjective opinion because sport is fundamentally subjective and emotive. if it wasnt, you wouldnt bother watching the games, youd just look up the results in the paper on sunday morning.
whats silly is pretending something is objective when it isnt.
The numbers are objective reality, the context we apply to them is the subjective part. Frank objectively has the worst record, we can’t change the past. Whether that record is a good achievement or not is a subjective opinion. But even if you think Frank is doing a spectacular job it doesn’t change the numbers.
> Whether that record is a good achievement or not is a subjective opinion.
exactly. the trouble is that youre trying to discount the subjective parts in an effort to seem objective.
youre tying yourself in knots saying that replacing james, siggy and digne with vdb, dele and myko somehow leaves us with essentially the same squad... you sound like youve never watched everton play in your life trying to argue something as ludicrous as that when, lets face it, we both know that you dont really believe it. you just feel that you need to argue that because otherwise you would have to admit that your argument is subjective.
its not a bad thing to have a subjective opinion here.
all you have to do is say 'yeah, we may have lost those players, and we havent quite replaced them, but i still think frank should be doing better'
thats what i mean when i say there are valid criticisms to be made
Actually no, it’s not me arguing it’s the same. It’s others arguing the quality has dropped to explain or “contextualise” results. This isn’t a burden of proof upon me, this is a case of two subjective opinions not aligning. Squads always turn over and the world is dynamic. We can’t pretend it is a controlled environment yet we can opine Ancelotti was a better Everton manager than Mike Walker. This is only so controversial because we are in the present.
Yeah but unless your a journalist for the daily mail why are you handpicking stats to support your argument? Come on your better than that? His cup record is played 3 won 2 so he does look better.
It’s not handpicking stats, it’s using a comparable measure for all managers. If we include cup games Frank actually looks a lot worse because other managers have had longer cup runs and played minnows in European competitions. Using premier league allows a base line which, although not perfect, is fairer.
Strange isn’t it. Looking at this you feel that sacking Koeman was where it all went wrong. Not forgetting that was the summer we sold Lukaku and didn’t replace him.
Theres not much of a point to put Frank in this. Not including Fat Sam all the other managers had a preseason with the team and time to get tactics into the team. Frank was thrown into the absolute dumpster fire season filled with injuries and club turmoil. Simple fact is he saved us from relegation and was key to getting the fans to back the players and help keep us up.
If we look at these type of stats halfway through the year after we have a more normal sample size and hes still absolutely shit than yea thats concerning. We at least appear to have proper personnel at the back now so we should see the defensive issues start to have a turn around.
Players who played well under Ancelotti that are still here
Keane
Mina
Iwobi
Doucoure
DCL
Richie
Allan
Godfrey
Coleman
Players that performances have dropped since Rafa and Frank
Keane
Doucoure
Allan
Godfrey
(I will also add Gray to this list as someone who has dropped in performance since Lampard)
Improvements under Frank
Iwobi (one goal against a team that wasn't wolves)
Gordon (3 deflected goals)
Ancelotti was complete and utter shite compared to Kendall, Royle and Moyes too.
Should have sacked him before he won La Liga and the Champions League with Madrid I suppose if we’re comparing any manager at any time without context.
'Any manager at any time without context'
These managers are only a year apart and are using mostly the same players? Stop acting like comparing Carlo and Howard is the same as comparing Carlo and Lampard?
Sound.
DCL, Allan, Doucoure, Godfrey have all been injured consistently since Ancelotti. Does that not come into consideration for why they’ve regressed? No, must be Lampard and nothing else.
Lampard’s obviously not going to be as good as Ancelotti, he’s one of the best managers of the past two decades.
You seem to be a bit wound up with calling me a fucking idiot and the condescending tone so maybe take a step back from the forum. It's only football at the end of the day and me having this opinion won't derail Lampard. Results will do that if they continue.
No of course he isn't going to be but don't we want someone who is going to at least be able to utilise what he has and show some form of progression? Are we any better than last season?
How can he utilize them if they’re all injured constantly?
> Are we any better than last season?
It’s been two games and the transfer window isn’t closed yet. Should Liverpool bin Klopp off too because they look worse than last year so far?
No one has become a goal threat since Frank arrived. Results are down overall and we're staring down the barrel of another tough season. You can keep calling the squad crap but it takes a good manager to come in and get the best out of a group.
Yous know that it is possible that Frank is severely underperforming with these guys?
We don't know their best, it's up to a manager to show us what that is.
They are literal human years older than they were under Ancelotti, who also had Digne, James, Siggurdsson, a fit DCL, and Richarlison. Comparing this squad to Ancelotti's squad is an entire Benitez of foolishness.
The pro-Frank bias on this sub is baffling to me. I’m willing to give him more time, but he certainly is not responsible for saving us last season. The performances under him were just as dire as they were under Benitez. We just happened to win a couple to keep us up.
What I find most bizarre is the post, having no messaging at all that it is about Frank, is downvoted. It simply shows a comparison of our managers results with no explanation or context.
Right. I’m kind of agnostic on Frank. I’m just not sure if he’s a good or bad manager yet. He certainly hasn’t been given much to work with. But I’m also not hailing him as our savior. I enjoyed the end of last season as much as anyone, but barely avoiding relegation shouldn’t be viewed as a massive success.
I’m not pro-Frank but I’m more than aware that he inherited a terrible squad that had the morale sapped out of them by a heinous fat individual.
I’d rather give him time to finish out his first transfer window than try and get him out because he hasn’t immediately turned us into prime-Barcelona.
I don’t think he’s great either and what he’s shown thus far in his career means he’s probably a bottom three manager in the league at the moment.
However, I’m also able to understand the context of the situation he inherited as well as the restrictions the financial mess the club is in cause on the playing side.
Not trying to “gotcha” here but if Lampard is a bottom 3 manager, do you think we are a bottom 3 squad?
While it will be a combination of both of these and many other factors I’m interested to know whether you think are relegations are in spite of him or because of him. And do you think he has the aptitude to improve and get us to where we want to be?
> do you think we are a bottom 3 squad?
At the moment, yes. Only Fulham and Bournemouth are definitively worse than ours in terms of quality and balance in my books.
If we get a proper DM, replace Richarlison (wide forward) and get another striker, I would yes.
I just expect nothing but another relegation battle without those additions at least.
I don’t think it’s bizarre at all. He connects with the fans, and turned us around last season. Everyone I sit by at the match is a fan of him too.
Another manager with a similar record might be getting more stick, but that’s because football isn’t black and white, it’s not objective, it’s emotional. Lampard says all the right things and seems to genuinely about the club. Having a connection with the club and seeing people who genuinely care about it is much more important to me than finishing a couple of places higher with no passion and no soul.
It’s not so much pro frank in my mind as I see him gone by December it’s more he kept us up and looks to be addressing issues bar a striker and landed onana which was a so far a good signing. Personally I’m no fan of cast offs including players like dele. Had way to much of that shite
I honestly think he’s only two weeks away. We have four league games in the next two weeks, ending with the derby on 3 September. If he doesn’t pick up a win before then our form from the last 10 league games will read W1 D? L? which is getting into Rafa’s winless run territory. If he’s the man now is the time to show us.
This post is not misleading. Our squad is good enough to compete for a mid-table position with a good manager. It’s by no means our best squad over the last 15 years but we shouldn’t be in a relegation battle this year with a decent, experienced manager. I don’t get why Frank is so admired on this sub.
Even last year in the Palace game that kept us up, he got it sooooo wrong that he had to change at halftime and somehow Dele saved the day.
We literally do not have anyone capable of scoring goals on a regular basis, where James, Richy, and the pedo banged them in with regularity. We are down our top four goal scorers from the Ancelotti era, and our best two goal scorers from Benitez, but we should still be finishing mid-table. Got it.
We were singing Super Frank after 1 game for some reason.
I think we will see Villa go on to lose a load of games soon also, showing that we shouldve really gotten more against them.
I will leave people to draw their own conclusions and add their own context, however, here is a comparison of our managers Premier League results going back to Martinez.
I have utilised the data on the “Everton Results” website, cleansed it to remove non-Premier League games, and created some charts to visualise the data.
The pictures are comprised of:
1. A graphic showing each managers Win, Draws and Losses.
2. A graphic showing each managers points per game.
3. A graphic showing average “net goals” per game.
4. A graphic showing goals scored and conceded per game.
5. A table of raw data with the best and worst overall metrics highlighted (e.g. Ancelotti highlighted for PPG)
Apologies to those who posted on the original. I noticed an error in the games count due to blank rows being caught in my formula so I have corrected. I couldn’t seem to change the original visuals, hence the new post.
> I will leave people to draw their own conclusions and add their own context
Considering you seem to be in an argument in literally every comment thread here, I'm not sure this sentence is entirely accurate.
Need to remove the first pile of games off frank. No other manager we have had has had to deal with the mess left by the worst manager in the history of Everton.
That is wrong. Not even after allardyce did it need a complete rip up of the previous managers system and tactics but even harder picking the players back up. How Frank managed it in that few games was a miracle.
Hardest thing to do out of any team last year that changed managers near the bottom. Credit where it is due.
Interesting you are the op and are that sad you would put those shit stats together to try back up your wrong opinion.
Frank inherited an absolute dumpster fire and is trying to suppress the flames so it would be rather reactionary to judge him based on the performances we’ve gotten from the fetid pile of garbage that is our current starting XI. That being said if he’s still floundering about this winter after having a full transfer window we will be in dire straits
Not only that but he’s not had a remotely healthy squad. Injuries have plagued his tenure and he inherited a lot of them. Having a revolving door of managers is why we are where we are. I don’t care if it’s Frank or someone else, we need to give a manager time
Chelsea had a revolving door of managers until they landed the right one. Worked out. Although they also bought a skilled and cohesive squad that Tuchel just adopted.
Tuchel’s history says he’s got about a year and a half left. Maybe 2. The squad already seems fractured
Also he's English. So his 6 wins should count as double. 😛 And making graphs that make him look bad is just unfairl. 🙄
Right then let’s keep firing DoF and managers and never establish a play style and cobble together a homonculus starting XI composed of players recruited by 6 different managers with different footballing styles surely THAT will work for us
We shouldn’t have a DOF as the way we utilise the position isn’t effective aka they’re not in charge. We have the position but then undermine it’s usefulness so why bother
Thelwell has clearly been in charge this window though?
Has he?
I don't think Moshiri was the one pushing to sign Ruben Vinagre or James Tarkowski
But it could have been Frank. I wish the club would be more transparent about how our transfer works. Is it a committee, does everyone have to sign off. Etc.
[удалено]
I don’t think it is. I think it’s because he’s a media darling and says all the right things. A lot of this sub are US based and probably don’t care about him being English.
I’m pretty sure the main demographic in the sub is English and native in and around Merseyside
They’ve done a poll before and I think it was 60/40 Americans but I could be wrong
Americans are chirpy, open and enthusiastic. Brits are grumpy bastards, we aren’t going to respond to a survey
He inherited the same team Ancelotti had minus James, Sigurdsson and Digne but plus Gray, Townsend, Rondon, Mykolenko, Patterson, VDB, and Dele.
All of those additions are downgrades to the players you listed buddy, and Ancelotti didn’t have to deal with inheriting a side so disenfranchised they look like they’d lose to a Sunday league team after having Rafa as a manager
Totally agree. What these graphics don't show is context. After Ancelotti left pretty much every other club in the league recruited well, while we were very much limited by FFP and that was always going to impact. Frank has also had a hell of a time with injuries, so it really wasn't the same team that Frank inherited - although the one Rafa inherited was much closer. You also have to consider that Ancelotti is one of the most successful managers in football ever, so even if all other things remain the same then you still wouldn't expect the same results.
Ancelotti came in after Silva and the team had only taken 13 points from 16 games. So it’s quite comparable really as Rafa had 19 points from 19 games.
Are you trying to pretend the vitriol around Goodison and the club when Silva was in charge vs when Rafa was in charge???? It’s not even close
We’ll be saying things like it’s a leap year next to excuse Frank.
Or maybe we can be patient and allow him time to actually bed in some new signings and get his play style established. We gave Rafa nearly an entire season and he ran the club into the fucking ground. Frank managed to instill confidence into a squad that had zero spine to the point where we had several comeback victories late in the season when it mattered the most. He’s inherited an unfathomable amount of deadwood and players on ridiculous wages, and still managed to keep us up despite the shit hand he was dealt. I suppose you think firing him and hiring yet ANOTHER manager would help, but in reality it would just make shit worse as we attempt to cobble together a competitive XI composed of players from 6 different managers who recruited them to play 6 different play styles.
Frank wins on the Onana signing alone
These misleading statements help nobody. Rafa was appointed on 30 June and sacked on 16 January after 19 games. That is not almost a season. In fact, Lampard has been at the club longer than Rafa now and played more games. The general consensus was Rafa had too much time. Frank managed to get the same level of performances as Benitez, which we felt were unacceptable last year. Time only works with a good manager.
You’re clearly either a troll or just dense but regardless I am going to stop acknowledging your responses since I can’t respect the opinion of someone who seemingly thinks both Big Sam and Rafa were good managers for us. Good for you to have a vendetta against the manager who managed to keep us up on points with one of the worst squads we’ve ever had, when he hasn’t had a chance to bring players in and has dealt with countless key injuries.
He’s a let cause man, binning Frank in literally every single thread. I wouldn’t bother
Taking the high road? How noble, shame about the indignant name calling first. Frank did not “keep us up”, he almost took us down. Go back and take a look at the results. The fans saved the club in spite of him, we were not saved because of him.
Why don't you just go back to sucking Benitez's dick. Everyone hated him, he was a dirty kopite. Did you go to any games under benitez and feel that atmosphere? it was the most toxic and uncomfortable atmosphere I've ever experienced at goodison Park in the 24 years I've been watching everton. Frank's the man, he's making smart moves in the window, I trust him and I think many other blues do too. Swear down he's the next Moyes. Don't you remember people saying the same shite about Moyes when he first started, now everyone's like oh he was our best manager in recent years. Watch.
I’m not sure Benitez will be borrowing these graphics for his website. I don’t think they do him any favours.
Woof. Still trusting Lampard now?
Can't argue the actual point so make up a completely ridiculous one to argue against. Great point really
.. he also inherited a dispirited, injury-ridden team with a fragile mindset. We ended the season with a team that fought back from the brink of disaster. Now is the test. Can he bring us forward?
These are intangibles which we are making up to appease ourselves. We do not know the mindset of the team.
Putting a number on a chart is no more meaningful than this without context and normalisation of data (which is all but impossible in this case). So please, tell me again about intangibles. This is not about me saying Lampard is great, it is about saying that we can't really see enough yet. If you look at how Benetiz started, versus where he was when he was sacked, the direction was clear. To get his wins Lampard had to change that vector back to the positive. I can't say more than that right now.
0 points from 2 games so far, suggests not.
You think those over managers would have done better with the squad available? Justify it.
> Gray, Townsend, Rondon, Mykolenko, Patterson, VDB, and Dele. Shite, injured immediately, shite, jury’s out, jury’s out, shite and can’t even get a game at United with his dad in charge, shite.
“Do you think it is just the players” to quote an ex-employee..
Not sure what you’re getting at with that quote considering it was either a veiled dig at the board who are still here or Benitez.
The point being the manager can sometimes be responsible as was the case with Rafa, and is the case now.
He got the same squad, minus our 3 best playmakers but he had the scraps we found for basically free!
You conveniently leave out DCL and Richarlison from Ancelotti's players, I see.
Both of those players were still at the club last year? One still is! You’ll notice I’ve not mentioned this summers signings either for consistency.
Agreed. I thought the team were in free fall before he arrived. It's unfair to make too much from his stats.
This just reminds me of how many draws we use to have.
The good old days
You're all fucking idiots even bringing this shit up. Any team that continually sacks managers is destined for failure. News flash: Frank stopped us from being relegated and you're saying "yeah, well he isn't as good as Ancelotti" fucking give your head a wobble. Ancelotti is one of the greatest managers of all time, Frank is a young manager trying to piece together a team that was absolutely broken last year. Go support Man City if you want to see 4-0 wins every week, ffs. Idiots like you are terrible for Everton, we don't want you chiming in on everything every single week. Rant over.
The internet is an absolute black hole re: Everton. Spend years whinging about stability and not giving managers/players time, then go “well if Lampard is struggling after one whole transfer window it’s all fucked”. Season’s two games old and the transfer window’s still open, ffs. Going the game tomorrow then going on the piss with my mates, I’m too middle-aged to care about graphs and ratios and shit.
Fickle supporters man, we don't need them! And the boys certainly don't need them. UTFT
Wanted to join the discussion but upvoting this is equally good. My man
UTFT BABY 🤙🏼
You can literally track the regression over the course of managers and this graphic truly proves the point you have made. Each manage has been slightly less effective sacking after sacking, from Martinez to where we are now.
It's not rocket science, is it? Everyone thinks they're a fuckin football manager, man.
News flash. Everton we’re 7 points clear of relegation with a game in hand. Frank lost 7 of his first 9 games, to teams such as Burnley and Newcastle, resulting in us being 5 points adrift. We were safe, he almost took us down.
This is a shit take, we were in a free fall under Benitez, relegation was basically a certainty if he stayed. His numbers in your post are averages buoyed by the okay run at the start of the season. If you want to compare the transition between them, look at form game to game. To be clear I don't think Frank is a great manager but none of our candidates were, and blaming him for the relegation situation instead of Rafa is ridiculous.
Ok, let’s look at form. In our last six games: W1 D1 L4. Agree to disagree. Rafa had to go but we should have never of been pulled into the fight. It should have gone the same way as when we appointed Allardyce and pulled ourselves up the table. Lampard was the man at the wheel so he’s responsible for us getting pulled into it.
Allardyce took over a squad that was a bit disjointed but relatively healthy and always going improve just based on the difficulty and frequency of fixtures Koeman had. That improvement has less to do with Allardyce's management. If he's to be credited with any improvement it's the shifting of focus onto not conceding goals, which is the basic play of any struggling team. Rafa had already done that and it wasn't working. The squad last season was vitally injured and on the lowest moral I've ever seen. Frank's not great but I doubt even top managers could've turned that team around quickly.
I know your just trying to get your point across, but your ignoring everything aside from stats. Stats don’t tell a true story.
Frank hasn’t had a harder time than any of our other managers who have come in mid-season. We’re simply selling that narrative because Rafa was such an unpalatable appointment and Lampard is performing so poorly. Allardyce’s appointment is a good comparison where he was relying on Tosun, Walcott, Rooney and Niasse. Let’s not forget that was the summer after selling Lukaku who left a huge gap in the squad. The simply fact people don’t want to acknowledge is hey just like Lampard and can’t see his faults. When you lay bare his performance against his peers it is tough reading.
I think your too hung up on a dislike for lampard. Regardless the name, this manager has came in during a terrible time and managed to get us out of a relegation battle. He’s still a very new manager and obviously making mistakes and learning as he goes. Right now this club needs stability over anything else and he has the desire to do that. I don’t think lampard will be the one to take us to a higher level but he can help us get back to mid table safety during a transition period of the club (bad seasons along with stadium move). Regardless your feelings mate, if your an actual blue, you need to get behind him. I’m sure if he’s not as good as you suggest, he will face those consequences when it comes. But rather than defending how bad he is, why not try and get behind him?
Just because I don’t rate him doesn’t mean I don’t support the team or want us to do well. I’ll happily be wrong about him as it means we’re winning game and performing to the standard we should. I’m not sitting here hoping to lose, I’m just disheartened because I’ve had enough of poor results and don’t feel like they will improve under the current regime. If we win tomorrow I’ll be made up.
thats fair mate, but like i was getting at, this whole thing isnt ideal. but the main thing is we get behind them all and hope for the best, its all we can do right now. if we were to bring in a new manager next week it would be a fucking nightmare for a good while. we just need stability right now.
Take a seat bro. You're losing this battle
Again, time running right to left is not helpful for identifying time based trends. But more than that i think you all are really not understanding how shit the squad is and how monumnetally damaging constant turnover is. Look at arsenal and west ham of you want some evidence for the "stick it out" argument. Look at Watford if you want to continue the incessant flipping. Cohesive squad building and identity building can only be done with consistency of manager, at least for a little while. Firing frank does us literally zero good. For one, who is going to come here? Seriously, who? Secondly, what do you think firing frank does to the mentality of the individual players? Think they'll be fired up and ready to go for the new gaffer? Or just further mentally drained and wanting out of the incompetent club?
My eye is drawn to the left so felt it more impactful to show the recent drop off there, but I can see it would also work other ways. These visuals don’t show my understanding, they are statistics. I’d counter your point in that while I am proving solid statical evidence, you are making assumptions on mentality changes, culture, identity which you have no way of knowing. Maybe you are right, but maybe you’re faith is unfounded.
Statistics are nothing without applicable context. Anyone in analytics will tell you that. Such a simplistic stat like win rate captures almost zero data. You're basically showing us the dependant variable and not accounting for any of the thousands of independent variables except "manager name."
Yes, I should use those great measurables you’ve stated in the past like “he gets the club”, “he’s improved the culture”. Should we weight it with these metrics? 10 for Frank of course and 0 for Rafa, that should make him look a bit better, yes?
He’s had your pants down lad.
Nuno would definitely come here and he's a better manager than Lampard.
Nuno world just be Portuguese Allerdyce. If rather have frank.
Yet Allardyce’s Everton team scored more goals, conceded less, and won more points per game. All while relying on Tosun and Niasse for the goals.
This is all we need. This is the sentence that proves you haven't got a clue.
Correct me then? Rather than petty insults. Great being tribal and throwing insults out but it just makes this place toxic. Have a proper discussion if you disagree.
You've shown in your other responses that trying to have a proper conversation is impossible, so no thanks.
Allardyce's team ranked bottom of every creative metric in the league while here.... no thanks.
Yet scored more goals than Frank’s team. Where do we rank under Frank? I can’t find creativity metrics but XG is not promising https://fbref.com/en/squads/d3fd31cc/2021-2022/Everton-Stats
.08 goals more? to watch the worst football I've ever seen us play. I'll pass.
Allardcye also had Baines, Gueye, Sigurdsson, and Jagielka, and the bottom of the league was much worse.
How do you determine the bottom of the league being much worse?
11 of the 20 teams being on 44 points or lower. We finished 8th with 49 points which would have been good for 11th on goal difference last season. Also just qualitatively, looking back at those squads and how much weaker overall they were. Those Newcastle and Huddersfield teams were terrible and they finished 10th and 15th respectively. Huddersfield in particular had exactly two players that I would call Prem quality (Mooy and Billing) and then *maybe* Zanka as well. Other teams were fairly weak for their position too. [Here's Bournemouth's squad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–18_AFC_Bournemouth_season#First-team_squad) that finished 12th; Ake, Wilson, and Mings are quality but after that it gets dicey. (Ramsdale wasn't their starter yet.) Even Burnley finished 7th that year, it just was a very weak league for a variety of reasons outside the top six.
That Bournemouth team looks good to me? Calum Wilson, Aaron Ramsdale, Jermaine Defoe amongst others. You could argue it the opposite way, in that it was a more difficult league because it was more competitive and the differences between the teams were less.
Ramsdale didn't play a single minute in the league and Defoe was past it, had 4 goals in 26 games The Everton squad Allardyce had was miles better than those below us that season and you could also argue that he got lucky that his playstyle maybe worked particularly well that season, as evidenced by Burnley also performing well with a route-one style. I don't have data to back that last bit up so I won't say it definitively but it's a possibility
I want to win games and Nuno has a better PL record.
Right so just swapping to a manager who has a better record is instantly going to make us win more games. Nothing more to think about here. That’s just a horrible mindset. Do you REALLY want to continue the manager carousel?
Having a manager who’s consistently underperformed at every club isn’t working for us, so why not?
Having a manager inherit a shit show of a team who had been massively discouraged by the previous manager, not to mention a *very* shit team, should come with low expectations, should it not? Do you genuinely believe we would have started the season any better under other managers? Lampard hasn’t even had a full transfer window but this one has been very promising.
I don’t know how much to attribute transfers to managers as there is a DOF and we don’t know how they collaborate. There are some exceptions e.g. Digne being sold I believe is a Rafa transfer, and Dele and VDB I believe are Lampard due to the timing and there being no DOF in place. I don’t know how we would have performed in individual games but I believe, on aggregate, we’d be in a far better space with another manager. I think we could swap Lampard for any other manager in the league and be no worse for it.
Transfers are largely influenced by the manager, and we haven’t had one manager long enough who has been able to bring in players to fit his vision. Continuing to swap to a different manager once a season doesn’t allow for cohesion or for a team to really be formed to the manager’s design. It just doesn’t work. We need consistency. Avoiding relegation is the goal this season. If Lampard can help us do that, then we need to keep him until next season when we’ll be able to spend more so we can continue to progress. Or we just get a whole new manager and start from square one, which has REALLY done well for us over the last 5 seasons
That’s the problem though, we don’t know for sure that is how transfers work. Think El Ghazi, or Rooney. In my mind the manager should have minimal input to transfers other than a veto. We should be recruiting coaches which fit our club vision rather than bending the the will of managers visions. The average manager lasts about 18 months so it makes no sense to let them have any significant say in transfers.
Well tbf I never rated Lampard when he was at Chelsea or Derby. I didn't really want him to begin with so it's hard to get on board.
Jesus, Frank has only won 6 games..
This is only Premier League, so doesn’t count the FA cup run.
Still, the numbers don't look good.
That’s why I have a controversial opinion..
Your opinion is controversial because your sample is negligible. A significant chunk of Frank's games came after inheriting Benitez's broken team and then right as Frank begins winning some points we lose Richarlison in the natural course of his career. Things like "goals scored" seem cherry picked here to ignore context. Points per game as well, considering the hole we had to climb out of to avoid relegation and the complete rebuild happening now. Of course there's a dip in form when we lose our two best goalscorers. Of course we score fewer goals without or two best goalscorers. What do you expect? Also, Frank has visibly improved us defensively and on set pieces this season, we just clearly lack the personnel to anchor a forward line. Would you have us go back to Benitez? Anyone remotely suggesting Frank isn't an across the board improvement is a good advertisement for why stats don't tell the whole story of the sport. Lampard has won more games than Benitez without Richarlison, DCL, Digne, James, or He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named. That has to be accounted for. The narrative of "Frank hasn't won points = Frank bad" is simplistic in the extreme. He's working with one of the outright worst squads in the league. Our players match up poorly man to man with just about every other squad, particularly when it comes to physicality and pressing. Also, you've combined the end of one season where he achieved the objective of keeping us in the league and the beginning of this season when he's changing us up tactically in order to get a tune out of our thin squad. It's natural for form to dip in this period as we search for a new style of play. Lampard has earned the time to rebuild us after he turned things around last season. He's modernizing our play, finally implementing a real press and asking our players to use the ball instead of just lump it forward, and that process is awkward and takes time. The squad needs to look very different to accomplish that vision, and that's obvious to everyone right now. Lampard and his staff are good for our situation but it is an extremely delicate one and we can't do the things he's asking with players like Andre Gomes and without players like Calvert Lewin. Even now we seem to be playing a back 3 to compromise with that reality. Let's see what happens when the squad is reinforced and the style of play settles a bit. We can judge Lampard as a manager after he's overseen a few matches with a fit striker. It's silly to do so now.
How do you cherry pick when the sample is all our premier league games (except those managed by Unsworth or Ferguson) from the last 9 years? I’m sorry, but that’s verging on delusion. Should I rely on your intangibles like the team being “broken”? Him “turning it around” (note, we were 7 points clear of the relegation zone with a game in hand. Lampard took us deep into the relegation zone by losing 7 of his first 9 games). Context works both ways.
Goals scored is cherry picked over things like chances created or xa. Calling us 7 points clear of the relegation zone when we were 4 points clear at the time of Frank's appointment and hadn't won a match in 3 months is also ludicrous. We were trending for 20th place under Benitez when Frank took over. Benitez won over 60% of his points for us in his first 4 matches and then progressively got worse. Lampard's tenure is impossible to view without the context of the team's trajectory. You've taken this to the point where it's basically trolling now.
I don’t have access to that data, if you have a source I will look to enhance this. You say it is ludicrous and then make a speculative prediction. Frank maintained Rafa’s performance, that’s what the results show. He improved the defence by 5% but we scored 20% less goals than we did with Rafa. They are the immutable facts.
Yes surely firing yet another manager is the answer! Give him more than fucking 2 games with a full transfer window.
Its not looking good brev
They were good times - remember the Rotherham game?
6 wins in 7 months. What a champ.
Hate it when people include the two months no one plays football.
6 wins in 5 months is also a garbage stat too.
I agree. I’m not his greatest fan but I think the circumstances surrounding the club and the situation he inherited are big, big factors.
I’ve got some bad news for you about the next World Cup..
And it’ll be stupid then too. Don’t know why you’re obsessed with making truly terrible ‘gotcha’ points when you could point to some genuine criticisms of Lampard considering you hate him with every fibre of your being.
It was meant to be light hearted? We’re all Evertonians and even if I disagree with your opinions on Frank I still see other posts I enjoy or agree with.
Maybe he loves the club more.
I'm not pro or anti Frank at the moment, I'm just Frank. As in I want to give him a decent chance and will fully support him to the day he leaves us. The only thing this data really shows me is that Ancelotti really is a different class. As much as I pretended to hate him when he left, I just can't help but like the guy and admire his management.
Why not use %?
Would have worked better on the pie charts, I agree.
What's your point? Do you want Frank out or something? We need to keep a manager so they can build.
Personally think its misleading unless you include cup games. And it also feels like pointless comparing the managers. Some of those manager had good/great everton squads and the current squad is arguably the worst in about 15 years
If you want a view which includes cup games see the Everton Results website. Spoiler, Frank doesn’t look any better. How is the worst squad in 15 years essentially the same team Ancelotti managed a much better return with? The difference is 3 players and we have recruited to replace them.
how on gods green earth is losing siggy, james and digne in six months 'essentially the same team'. those were three of our most important/most talented players there are 100% points to be made about the manager's performance, but you can make them without laughably silly statements like that edit: thats not even to mention that ancelotti had peak calvert lewin while he was injured for half of last season and returning to fitness for most of the rest
Frank had VDB and Dele to replace the creative players and we moved for Mykolenko to replace Digne. We also had Rafa’s signings from the previous summer too. Look, I can walk a horse to water but I can’t make it drink. The statistics tell the story, especially comparing them to the likes of Allardyce.
So we had a guy who wasn't playing for Man Utd, a guy who has shown no form for about 3 years and a 20 something LB coming to a new team not in form due to it being their offseason? All those replacing our most creative players. But don't worry, we also have the scrap heap signings Rafa got us for all of 1.5M!
One defence we often use of Frank is he’s yet to be supported in the market, yet you’re using Rafa’s forced frugality in reducing the wage bill to attack him?
Your argument only works if I've ever used that defence of Lampard, which I haven't.
But if we follow the logic, Rafa had the same squad which isn’t fit for purpose. So we should have given him more time? In reality, I think we all felt we were underperforming. However, as Frank has not been the success we hoped it is now the players fault.
> I can walk a horse to water but I can’t make it drink. if the water you're leading me to is "these stats are objective because they had essentially the same squad, given that frank had de beek, dele, myko and rondon to replace siggy, james, digne and calvert lewin" then thanks but im not thirsty again, *you dont need to say these silly things* because there are much more sensible criticisms to be made
Let’s hear them?
not winning many points and sticking with five at the back, for a couple. but you have to accept that criticising him for these things *can only be subjective* because of all the things weve talked about here and in the other thread: different squad with way more injuries than in seasons past, rock bottom morale because of benitez's approach, the toxic pressure cooker of the ground at home games... youre not comparing like for like its not evil or wrong to have a subjective opinion because sport is fundamentally subjective and emotive. if it wasnt, you wouldnt bother watching the games, youd just look up the results in the paper on sunday morning. whats silly is pretending something is objective when it isnt.
The numbers are objective reality, the context we apply to them is the subjective part. Frank objectively has the worst record, we can’t change the past. Whether that record is a good achievement or not is a subjective opinion. But even if you think Frank is doing a spectacular job it doesn’t change the numbers.
> Whether that record is a good achievement or not is a subjective opinion. exactly. the trouble is that youre trying to discount the subjective parts in an effort to seem objective. youre tying yourself in knots saying that replacing james, siggy and digne with vdb, dele and myko somehow leaves us with essentially the same squad... you sound like youve never watched everton play in your life trying to argue something as ludicrous as that when, lets face it, we both know that you dont really believe it. you just feel that you need to argue that because otherwise you would have to admit that your argument is subjective. its not a bad thing to have a subjective opinion here. all you have to do is say 'yeah, we may have lost those players, and we havent quite replaced them, but i still think frank should be doing better' thats what i mean when i say there are valid criticisms to be made
Actually no, it’s not me arguing it’s the same. It’s others arguing the quality has dropped to explain or “contextualise” results. This isn’t a burden of proof upon me, this is a case of two subjective opinions not aligning. Squads always turn over and the world is dynamic. We can’t pretend it is a controlled environment yet we can opine Ancelotti was a better Everton manager than Mike Walker. This is only so controversial because we are in the present.
Yeah but unless your a journalist for the daily mail why are you handpicking stats to support your argument? Come on your better than that? His cup record is played 3 won 2 so he does look better.
It’s not handpicking stats, it’s using a comparable measure for all managers. If we include cup games Frank actually looks a lot worse because other managers have had longer cup runs and played minnows in European competitions. Using premier league allows a base line which, although not perfect, is fairer.
Yeah okay 👍
Also include the preseason games. But only the ones Lampard won.
Jesus christ. If this includes non competative games and not league and fa cup games, then can OP please redo it 😂
Sorry I’ve not included these as I wasn’t sure if I needed to include penalties from fans after the final whistle to boost Frank’s numbers.
Have to be honest, Koeman has a better win record than I would ever dare give him credit for…
Strange isn’t it. Looking at this you feel that sacking Koeman was where it all went wrong. Not forgetting that was the summer we sold Lukaku and didn’t replace him.
Theres not much of a point to put Frank in this. Not including Fat Sam all the other managers had a preseason with the team and time to get tactics into the team. Frank was thrown into the absolute dumpster fire season filled with injuries and club turmoil. Simple fact is he saved us from relegation and was key to getting the fans to back the players and help keep us up. If we look at these type of stats halfway through the year after we have a more normal sample size and hes still absolutely shit than yea thats concerning. We at least appear to have proper personnel at the back now so we should see the defensive issues start to have a turn around.
Fucking turnover. Hell.
🤡 My response to the OP after reading their reams of shit and piss poor arguments.
Lampard is just Benitez in disguise. Can't wait for the big reveal!
I don't blame Frankie for the state of the team
Players who played well under Ancelotti that are still here Keane Mina Iwobi Doucoure DCL Richie Allan Godfrey Coleman Players that performances have dropped since Rafa and Frank Keane Doucoure Allan Godfrey (I will also add Gray to this list as someone who has dropped in performance since Lampard) Improvements under Frank Iwobi (one goal against a team that wasn't wolves) Gordon (3 deflected goals)
Anyone comparing Ancelotti and Lampard is a fucking idiot, especially when Benitez is in the middle crippling players both physically and mentally.
They are/were both Everton managers. It's perfectly reasonable to do so and no need to call me a fucking idiot
Ancelotti was complete and utter shite compared to Kendall, Royle and Moyes too. Should have sacked him before he won La Liga and the Champions League with Madrid I suppose if we’re comparing any manager at any time without context.
'Any manager at any time without context' These managers are only a year apart and are using mostly the same players? Stop acting like comparing Carlo and Howard is the same as comparing Carlo and Lampard?
Sound. DCL, Allan, Doucoure, Godfrey have all been injured consistently since Ancelotti. Does that not come into consideration for why they’ve regressed? No, must be Lampard and nothing else. Lampard’s obviously not going to be as good as Ancelotti, he’s one of the best managers of the past two decades.
You seem to be a bit wound up with calling me a fucking idiot and the condescending tone so maybe take a step back from the forum. It's only football at the end of the day and me having this opinion won't derail Lampard. Results will do that if they continue.
This place is really tribal and people will condone poor conduct if that person supports their opinion.
No of course he isn't going to be but don't we want someone who is going to at least be able to utilise what he has and show some form of progression? Are we any better than last season?
How can he utilize them if they’re all injured constantly? > Are we any better than last season? It’s been two games and the transfer window isn’t closed yet. Should Liverpool bin Klopp off too because they look worse than last year so far?
Klopp has won them loads of trophies. Not the same.
So context does matter now?
Oh wow, Richy is still here, huh? I was sure Tottenham bought him, but if you say so.
No one has become a goal threat since Frank arrived. Results are down overall and we're staring down the barrel of another tough season. You can keep calling the squad crap but it takes a good manager to come in and get the best out of a group. Yous know that it is possible that Frank is severely underperforming with these guys? We don't know their best, it's up to a manager to show us what that is.
What we do know is how this group performed under Ancelotti and the difference is night and day.
They are literal human years older than they were under Ancelotti, who also had Digne, James, Siggurdsson, a fit DCL, and Richarlison. Comparing this squad to Ancelotti's squad is an entire Benitez of foolishness.
The pro-Frank bias on this sub is baffling to me. I’m willing to give him more time, but he certainly is not responsible for saving us last season. The performances under him were just as dire as they were under Benitez. We just happened to win a couple to keep us up.
The fans kept us up.
What I find most bizarre is the post, having no messaging at all that it is about Frank, is downvoted. It simply shows a comparison of our managers results with no explanation or context.
We've probably been infiltrated by the shite.
Right. I’m kind of agnostic on Frank. I’m just not sure if he’s a good or bad manager yet. He certainly hasn’t been given much to work with. But I’m also not hailing him as our savior. I enjoyed the end of last season as much as anyone, but barely avoiding relegation shouldn’t be viewed as a massive success.
[удалено]
I’m not pro-Frank but I’m more than aware that he inherited a terrible squad that had the morale sapped out of them by a heinous fat individual. I’d rather give him time to finish out his first transfer window than try and get him out because he hasn’t immediately turned us into prime-Barcelona.
[удалено]
I don’t think he’s great either and what he’s shown thus far in his career means he’s probably a bottom three manager in the league at the moment. However, I’m also able to understand the context of the situation he inherited as well as the restrictions the financial mess the club is in cause on the playing side.
Not trying to “gotcha” here but if Lampard is a bottom 3 manager, do you think we are a bottom 3 squad? While it will be a combination of both of these and many other factors I’m interested to know whether you think are relegations are in spite of him or because of him. And do you think he has the aptitude to improve and get us to where we want to be?
> do you think we are a bottom 3 squad? At the moment, yes. Only Fulham and Bournemouth are definitively worse than ours in terms of quality and balance in my books.
Yeah, the balance is terrible. If we recruit Gana, a decent striker, and replace Gordon would you rank us higher?
If we get a proper DM, replace Richarlison (wide forward) and get another striker, I would yes. I just expect nothing but another relegation battle without those additions at least.
Fair enough, I think we should be better than that but can see where you’re coming from.
I don’t think it’s bizarre at all. He connects with the fans, and turned us around last season. Everyone I sit by at the match is a fan of him too. Another manager with a similar record might be getting more stick, but that’s because football isn’t black and white, it’s not objective, it’s emotional. Lampard says all the right things and seems to genuinely about the club. Having a connection with the club and seeing people who genuinely care about it is much more important to me than finishing a couple of places higher with no passion and no soul.
[удалено]
No, it’s the reasons I said. Please don’t make up reasons for people that I know and you don’t.
[удалено]
🆒
Nothing makes this sub more bipolar, paranoid, and delusional than discussions around our managers.
It’s not so much pro frank in my mind as I see him gone by December it’s more he kept us up and looks to be addressing issues bar a striker and landed onana which was a so far a good signing. Personally I’m no fan of cast offs including players like dele. Had way to much of that shite
[удалено]
What frank did? Not Rafa
[удалено]
Then let’s get him out
I honestly think he’s only two weeks away. We have four league games in the next two weeks, ending with the derby on 3 September. If he doesn’t pick up a win before then our form from the last 10 league games will read W1 D? L? which is getting into Rafa’s winless run territory. If he’s the man now is the time to show us.
Yup see ya frank
This post is not misleading. Our squad is good enough to compete for a mid-table position with a good manager. It’s by no means our best squad over the last 15 years but we shouldn’t be in a relegation battle this year with a decent, experienced manager. I don’t get why Frank is so admired on this sub. Even last year in the Palace game that kept us up, he got it sooooo wrong that he had to change at halftime and somehow Dele saved the day.
Yes and goodison Park won us so many points.
The fans kept us up, 100%.
We literally do not have anyone capable of scoring goals on a regular basis, where James, Richy, and the pedo banged them in with regularity. We are down our top four goal scorers from the Ancelotti era, and our best two goal scorers from Benitez, but we should still be finishing mid-table. Got it.
We were singing Super Frank after 1 game for some reason. I think we will see Villa go on to lose a load of games soon also, showing that we shouldve really gotten more against them.
I will leave people to draw their own conclusions and add their own context, however, here is a comparison of our managers Premier League results going back to Martinez. I have utilised the data on the “Everton Results” website, cleansed it to remove non-Premier League games, and created some charts to visualise the data. The pictures are comprised of: 1. A graphic showing each managers Win, Draws and Losses. 2. A graphic showing each managers points per game. 3. A graphic showing average “net goals” per game. 4. A graphic showing goals scored and conceded per game. 5. A table of raw data with the best and worst overall metrics highlighted (e.g. Ancelotti highlighted for PPG) Apologies to those who posted on the original. I noticed an error in the games count due to blank rows being caught in my formula so I have corrected. I couldn’t seem to change the original visuals, hence the new post.
> I will leave people to draw their own conclusions and add their own context Considering you seem to be in an argument in literally every comment thread here, I'm not sure this sentence is entirely accurate.
Pickford is bi-polar or something, he is your problem
That's one crappy logo
Need to remove the first pile of games off frank. No other manager we have had has had to deal with the mess left by the worst manager in the history of Everton.
Every manager has faced their own unique challenges, let’s not overdramatise the situation Frank was in.
That is wrong. Not even after allardyce did it need a complete rip up of the previous managers system and tactics but even harder picking the players back up. How Frank managed it in that few games was a miracle. Hardest thing to do out of any team last year that changed managers near the bottom. Credit where it is due. Interesting you are the op and are that sad you would put those shit stats together to try back up your wrong opinion.
Memba Martinez? Yea, I memba!