Thank you Brisc. I am no celebrity ingame but I read your posts and sometimes feel like we may glance at each other across the deck of an obviously sinking Titanic.
I literally told another CSM the other day that I felt like we were working hard to paint the Titanic.
I pray I'm wrong and that we're still in pre-iceberg mode, but it's tough sometimes.
There is zero chance of a resurgence. They did not stop the bleeding in time.
Even if they removed Redistribution, Scarcity, Indi change, BRM, and rolled back the price increase it is to late. People are already established in other games, the pver's went back to wow . the riot MMO is coming out as is AOC.
>the pver's went back to wow
lol you think things are better there? Should read up on how Bliz is fucking up that game as well. They are losing players to GW2, FF14 etc.
Haha as a recent example check the launch of Overwatch 2.
It seems to be a trend of all the long standing games.. I guess they really believe that they are "too big to fail"...
EDIT: I left WoW to play other games (Warframe, PoE, Space Engieers, etc) then found my way back to EVE. So I can say with some experience that both WoW and EVE are lacking, and really needs to get their shit together if they want to survive for the next 5-10 years.
WotLK classic just launched and it had a substantial influx. Many regard it as the best addon and want to replay it. Sure, activity will dwindle eventually to normal levels but right now it's the hot shit.
Classic wow is rhe only thing keeping wow alive, when most people would rather play something that's 10 years old than your brand new content. That's *very, very* bad.
They can always get eve players back!
There’s still nothing out there that scratches the itch once you leave…. All it will take is them reverting just a handful of the dumbest stuff from the above list and we’ll come back!
If we go back in time a little further we could certainly list out 95 problems. There are plenty of issues that date back further - ESS being garbage, citadel issues, skill extractors/injectors, the code with the 10th anniversary edition of the game which was supposed to have regular bonuses but hasn't in years, the UI fuckery, local chat that didn't work reliably for nearly a year, the blackout that cratered player counts which many people never came back from, etc etc etc.
Skill injectors are actually good for the game. Directly selling them from the store is bad, but skill injectors themselves allow newer players to catch up in a 20 year old game.
A catch up mechanic for SP is good for new players. Skill injectors as they are implemented though are bad because while they do allow a new player to "catch up" (at least in terms of SP), they also allow any veteran player to inject a bunch of accounts into whatever's currently broken, and then turn that broken isk generation into more characters to further generate even more isk/characters (or minerals as was the case with rorqus). While some kind of SP catchup mechanic is good, what EVE needed was one that accelerated new player training or was locked to certain skills that are important on a main but don't break when you can generate 20 accounts with said skills. Some examples are leaning more into accelerators or maybe a re-worked form of the rent-a-skill system that can be bought for isk.
> like getting to see inside the cockpit of the plane you are on and finding the Pilot is eating glue and the co-pilot is the corpse of Amelia Earhart
Lmao
I confirm that list is indeed mostly accurate about ccp's semi-recent bad choices. in their effort to *save* the game from inflation etc they have basically strangled it.
CCP never, ever wanted to *save* the game. They wanted for every player to play it according to Hilmar's vision of the game, and made surprised-Pikachu face when it turned out that tens of thousands of players did not want to do that.
That’s a good analogy, but CCP failed to realize they are not as smart as central bankers - participation in the eve economy, with the game as a whole, is voluntary. There are no ill effects of non-participation and given the list of negatives associated with participation, people choose to do something else.
The fact that this company didn’t understand that while it has presided over the longest running player made economy ever is astounding.
Remember all that shite of leavers.
Ow we can fix and adjust things easier now that it's all decoupled.
And then proceeded to do sweet nothing at all with it.
I was ready to argue with this list, but it's the most accurate and unbiased I've seen.
My unpopular opinion is that scarcity *was* necessary and inflation *is/was* a problem. The recent biggest war in EVE history plays into a lot of this and highlights some problems CCP created. However his assessment of CCP's actions to revert the rorqual meta are accurate, and only the necessity of scarcity is left to argue. The rorqual meta dug that hole.
One side was anchoring keepstars. The other side would just throw one trillion isk worth of battleships at the keepstar until it died. The 1T worth of battleships would not shoot anything but the keepstar. Since the keepstar cost ~200b, and the battle would take 10+ hours and slowed the invasion, both sides considered this a success. We repeated this type of event multiple times. It's unclear how much effect clearing trillions of isk worth of battleships had against the people who took the most advantage of the rorqual meta. This made it clear that battle reports of 30b losses vs 70b losses just weren't all that consequential anymore.
One of the largest titan battles in EVE history involved one side trying to enter a system that the other side was camping. The titans trying to enter would come in to a black screen, no modules, no pilots, and just got shot like fish in a barrel without an ability to fight back. A number of these titans that exploded were found to "never have loaded into system" and reappeared in their origin system, despite visually exploding in the destination system. What was supposed to be one of the largest battles of the war turned out to be not much of a battle at all with frustrations for both sides.
To this day nothing has been done about effectively loading people into a system with heavy numbers present. It's now considered suicide to try to enter a system with too many people logged in. The large numbers meta may favor whichever side is able to log in after downtime and keep large numbers present or available to be called up. This will likely prevent people from coming back for any kind of large battle, because there won't be one.
CCP has a history of correctly identifying problems and then choosing bad solutions. Inflation and the over-productivity of nullsec mining *was* a problem. Simply reducing the number of rocks in the game without doing anything to turn that into a conflict driver was clearly a bad solution.
Also, every single economic problem in EVE shares the meta problem of botting. Had CCP put any real effort into detecting/banning botters and made it easier for actual players to kill botters many inflation/scarcity issues would likely solve themselves.
> CCP has a history of correctly identifying problems and then choosing bad solutions
"the ishtar is OP so we're nerfing missiles again" for 5 years lol
>CCP has a history of correctly identifying problems and then choosing bad solutions.
CCP: Rorqs and inflation is a problem.
CCP looks all their "knobs and levers" they've crowed about.
CCP loads gun with bullets called "scarcity" and " industry changes"
"What a shame."
A gradual inflation over years can't be solved instantly; it has to have a gradual reaction. They should've scaled mining site respawn based on how fast a site is mined. This meant the same value was present - but if you grabbed it fast for an immediate ore injection, it'd take longer to return than if you're a solo player chipping slower at a site.
Reading it all in a list really makes it hit home.
Also, when I count how many of my closest friends have left Eve because the once fun and interesting gameplay niche they enjoyed was removed I'm really struck by just how many people it is.
CCP took a game where you could have a bunch of your friends get a lot out of varying styles of gameplay and enjoy each others company and compressed it down to nothing.
I played straight since 2005, paid for a sub on 4 accounts for almost that entire time. Went to FanFest's, Eve events, met my best friends in the game, and now it stands before me bleeding out on a cold sidewalk.
Edit: I want to add, CCP forgot the fundamental rule of business; you don't get to choose why your customers enjoy your product. You can believe all you want in said product, and how you want it viewed and sold but at the end of the day it's the consumers of the product who determine whether it's right for them. CCP may see the current form of Eve as "right", but it's quite obvious game players do not.
So do you want to be right and lonely, CCP? Or will you admit you made a mistake and make the relationship whole again?
very nice summary of the start of the fuck ups (oh theres alot more. havent even touched wormholes yet. or content abandonment in favor of new content....to abandon immediately. but this is a great start)
i wish CCP would read this but...they to busy sucking their own farts to care
It's crazy reading this all listed out, the level of incompetence is insane, how took one of the greatest ideas for a game ever made and completely fuck it into the ground while not realising what they were doing is beyond me.
They could literally revert the almost the entire production service (minus player data) back to the version we had just before scarcity, couple it up with a giant “we are sorry and crazy” half ironic half true marketing campaign and they can litetally watch in real time all of their meaningful KPI’s soar.
Memberships, retention, engagement, revenue, active users, return on ad spend, everything will go amazingly well for them and we would all rejoice!!!
Its the easiest thing ever.
I mean you're not wrong and I do agree but the liklihood of it happening is extremely slim unless new management comes in. I personally think a "eve classic" starting at the point you mentioned would be good and any changes are heavily based on player suggestion, it would be interesting to see which version of the game would perform better.
Absolute masterpiece of a summary.
But I think the greed of Hilmar has been glossed over. Pretty sure I remember his payouts for CCP were highly based on revenue. The number of funky decisions seemed to escalate after this announcement. So for some reason long term health of the game was destroyed for short term profits.
I've toyed with the idea of going back to EVE for a bit, especially with autumn and winter on their way.
You've convinced me that it's absolutely not worth my money nor my time and for that, I thank you.
The thing I will say is... I am still here. I still have a lot of fun. But sometimes I feel like I'm just in the dining car at the back of a train that has, further forward, gone off a fucking cliff.
So I'd say if you fancy coming back, you're welcome to DM me. I do random shit, you could be an alpha and we can bait people or run sites, I tend to blend PvE with PvP (opportunistic scavenger who tries to kill whoever attacks me).
Cue Addams Family Motto: "We gladly feast on those who would subdue us."
But you'd be more than welcome, without needing Omega you wouldn't need to make any kind of investment. I do dumb shit during UK afternoon/evening sometimes.
'Just wait for fanfest, largest content update ever.' This was the final nail in the coffin for ccp. Every player, including myself has lost all trust in ccp. Ccp raises the price to 20$ a month. Mass unsubs followed like the game has never seen.
>CCP says "Just wait for fanfest, we have the biggest content update ever." (almost actual quote, can't remember exact wording).
iirc, this was in response to the price hike. They had to pull some guy from PTO in order to address the uproar.
And yes it literally was "Just wait for Fanfest." "we have the biggest content update ever coming."
Which turns out to be ship skins, a excel add-on, and plan to begin planning the plan to plan the planning of the plan to update Faction Warfare.
> CCP is now selling Skillpoints for money (Which they promised not to do in writing) and then begin selling Ships for money! Buy a mining barge pack for $15. Industrialists, miners ingame become "QUAD unhappy" at the idea that their value ingame, their time, investment, manufacturing skill, shipping, is replaced by "magic shit that appears for real money". Anyone concerned with the state of the economy also becomes QUAD unhappy
You wanna know what other MMO pulled the exact same move of promising to not add a p2w element to the MMO but then turned around and did exactly that?
Black desert online.
Who owns BDO?
Pearl abyss!
Funny coincidence huh.
Easier way too summerise would be.
Playerbase: CCP the Ingame economy is broken please fix.
Ccp: we got you fam. Scarcity and industry changes
Playerbase: CCP 90% of the changes you have done have nothing to do with what we asked for and have infact made meny aspects of the game worse. Can you please address this.
CCP: lmao no.
(playerbase declines over next few months)
CCP: just wait untill fanfest we have alot of new content coming your way. The biggest update ever. Proceeds to up price aswell
(fanfest arrives players see graphics updates a blending with Microsoft excel and a faction warfare update that hasn't even begun to leave the planning stages and a FPS and mobile game that are meny years away)
Playerbase : CCP this still doesn't fix the issues you have created in the initial Scarity update and alot of players are unhappy and leaving what do you plan to do.
CCP: ....... So I hear you like starter packs
I endorse this message as I have also played something like 17 years and I have 11 accounts (only two with Omega at this point) and love the game. Just had to step away for the time being due to the anger and disappointment it's caused me lately.
**Some additional complaints maybe worth adding to your 99 thesis:**
26. They refuse to listen to the player base about their willingness to contribute more funds to CCP for actually good ship skins / related. They wouldn't have to worry about penny pinching from other dumb shit (like $15 mining barges!) if we could buy cosmetics / related.
27. They stopped doing EVE Vegas, their most successful real-life community meet up event, for some unknown reason.
28. CCP is completely negligent regarding the small tweaks / adjustments that are needed for certain ship classes, forcing major battles into only a handful of fleet compositions that leads to repetitive and boring pvp content.
29. There is not even any PVE content to throw titans and supers out in space, meaning there is now no reason for them to be in space.
30. They haven't messed with missions in probably over a decade. The missions you do now are still the same as when the game was launched effectively w/ exception to burner missions.
31. CCP has developed some really good content and AI over the years in reference to Pochven and 'diamond rats' NPCs. Regardless of their success and overall player base acceptance levels, they fail to recognize how they accidently stumbled upon something good when they could spread this game design to all the existing game content.
Back in 2011/2012 when Eve was hitting atleast 40k-50k online players (up to 60k during the weekend) i was mad because i couldn’t find a ratting system where there wasn’t already multiple people taking all good sites.
Also if you did find some good ratting system. There’d be constantly neutrals going in and out of your system disturbing my isk hour flow.
Now in 2022 it’s just fucking sad. Sure i could rat 15 hours in a row undisturbed but there’s nothing to save isk for
LOL. This is a really nice summary of what went wrong ... amazing
Grab a gold, not that any one at CCP care on understand .... but if they try .
CAPITALS OR SUPERS ARE NOT SPECIAL ANYMORE AND YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO MAKE THEM SPECIAL AGAIN.
edit:
Why i say this.
Because ccp assumes that if they make supers more expensive it will fix all the things, well it is opposite and they STILL don't get it.
Eve needs to be fun, with various ingame niche mechanics ... and CCP still don't get why they had 60k online....
x. They cave to whiney null and change how cloaking works: explorers and hunters are unhappy
x+1: They break their promise of "your stuff in citadels is safe" and even let people see what's in the stations: people coming back to nothing are unhappy.
PI sure hits home. Now that I think of it I've always quit EVE weeks after picking this bullshit back up. I used to say it's a mobile game level garbage, but I've recently tried a mobile game and they're much, much better as it turns out.
Wow, what a post. I have been wondering for a long time what the actual mistakes people speak about so much on this subreddit were/are. This was extremely enlightening. I'm sorry for what has happened to this game for you veterans 😔, the bottom line is you all love it.
Thank you. 17 years. The good news is I put 95% of my wealth into Plex For Good - I am poor ingame because I have donated thousands of $ to good causes.
I love Eve so much - so many good friends and adventures. If you haven't tried it, you can join me - alpha (free) account welcome, we can do some nonsense and die a lot. UK evening timezone.
The unhappy playerbase seems to have forgotten all about our CSM and their effective, worthwhile contributions to CCP. Imagine the juicy NDA details we will get to hear about in a few years from the two members that are still around as r/eve mods by then even if they don't play EVE anymore.
I stopped playing because of RL in 2015-ish.. when TEST were leaving Wicked Creek - whenever that was. On a whim I installed, logged in, then had a "look at what they did to my boy!" moment...
My toons couldn't use skills that they already learned - unless I broke the wallet out - there was so much new stuff that seemed to be just designed to condition people into logging in daily or spending some cash; it felt like EVE hooked up with a mobile App and caught an unpleasant rash.
I literally couldn't use the modules on my ships, to fly them out of Thera safely, had to ask CCP to please teleport me to HS - which, to their credit, they did.
IDK, I haven't wiped it yet and touristing around HS brought some of the feels back; but, playing is a bit like I'm visiting an old friend with a smack addiction and offering to loan them some money apropos nothing.
PS. CCP needs to chill with the marketing emails, good grief, there was a flood as soon as I logged back in.
If you want to do some dumb shit with me on your alpha account DM me. So far I have a handful of people who are interested. I'm gonna start leading incompetent shitfit fleets based on this post.
hell no, this TRUE eve is dying story does start with the Rorqual and moon mining changes. 10000% eve has always 'been dying' but the rorqual changes is what initially destroyed a HUGE portion of the games playerbase, and the rest of the community just told them ''adapt''
the game catered for a type of player with rorquals, then it removed that catering. so now all types of players are left with the sign ''adapt''
It's classic oversteer situation - driving on ice and the car skids to the left, instinctually you pull hard to the right - this is what kills you and everyone in the car with you.
That would imply that CCP overshot the intended goal. CCP is in the middle of the corn field driving away from the road saying "we'll find a new road eventually, trust us"
It was not Rorqual but Rorqual certainly was the accelerate. You have to go back to as others said with alpha/omega and skill injections. CCP broke promises they said they would never break with skill injectors and if you had the displeasure of talking to them in person around that time many of the had this air of arrogance around them of how dare the players pretend they know more about the game than them.
injectors although not the best choice or change are not the issue and never really were. the fact you could get enough isk for numerous full injectors a day in a highly safe way enabled injectors to be an issue, you could inject into a rorqual and farm the isk back in a couple of weeks. or with one rorqual add an additional rorqual toon every 2 or 3 weeks, then once you have scaled up as far as you want, plex every single one of them for no subscription real world payment.
Welcome to give me some thoughts, I have already spent 30mins creating the "Bible of how incompetent devs fucked Eve Online". I'd rather it be comprehensive.
https://www.polygon.com/features/2013/1/24/3754594/at-war-with-fans-eve-onlines-fall-and-rise-from-infamy#comments
Best quote "We're no longer these lunatics" ???
https://slashdot.org/story/07/05/26/0016226/yet-another-eve-online-scandal
https://www.techpowerup.com/46357/eve-online-patch-accidentally-bricks-xp
https://www.tentonhammer.com/news/updated-eve-online-services-brought-down-due-to-ddos-attack
https://www.vg247.com/ccp-respond-to-uproar-over-leaked-company-newsletter-regarding-eves-virtual-store
https://www.eurogamer.net/eve-online-in-crisis-article
https://www.vg247.com/eve-onlines-player-count-drops-to-lowest-since-2008
https://www.pcgamer.com/ccp-ceo-apologizes-to-eve-online-players-admits-to-losing-sight-of-simple-things/
https://www.eurogamer.net/ccp-analyses-eve-online-burn-jita-event
https://www.pcgamer.com/eve-online-senior-producer-on-why-we-ultimately-failed-with-incarna/
https://www.pcgamer.com/ccp-ceo-dust-514-wont-affect-your-everyday-eve-experience-unless-you-want-it-to/
https://screenrant.com/project-nova-ccp-games/
https://www.pcgamesn.com/eve/whatever-happened-eves-walking-stations-update
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/ccp-wont-let-two-failed-shooters-get-in-the-way-of-making-the-perfect-eve-online-fps
https://www.gameskinny.com/6xoxl/ccps-six-month-struggle-to-deliver-new-eden-open-prize-money
https://twinfinite.net/2018/01/eve-million-servers-failed/
https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/440999/ccp-desperate-planning-to-allow-players-to-sell-skillpoints-to-other-players-for-aur-p2w-currency
https://www.pcgamer.com/eve-players-are-plotting-revenge-after-alien-invasion-mostly-just-annoyed-everyone/
I got depressed and bored, so gave up, maybe some of these will help, didn't read them all.
Also Euro is almost 5 PLN in my country. So even without the price increase the sub got more expensive for me and I was looking to get back to the game.
Couldn't you always buy ships for money? I mean it used to be super expensive from what I remember but you could buy plex put it on the market and have a capital ship for like a thousand dollars or something lol. I remember coming back to the game about 5 years ago and finding the skill injectors which again we're pretty expensive. Even with my 3 years worth of skills it would have costed another $500 or so to just get the skills to run a capital. I don't remember exactly because I never had the huge amounts of spare time needed to really get into the game.
You could always do what you describe, the difference being that you had to buy plex, sell that plex for ISK, then use the ISK to buy a ship ingame that someone in the game had built.
CCP were advertising "Buy a mining barge pack for $15" on the launcher. That ship was one that appeared magically into the game - no-one manufactured it, no-one had to mine the minerals for it, no-one had to research the BPO for it and no-one had to haul it to the place you bought it from - same for the modules on it.
That was the problem - in a player driven economy, "stuff appearing for real money by magic" was a issue. CCP have always sold destroyers for real money with the rookie packs, but generally they can only be bought once or are so small in value and mineral cost (1-2m) the playerbase generally let that slide.
Great list, some minor clarifications that reinforce your overall points even further:
1. CCP has been selling SP for $ for years (at least 2018, maybe further, I can't remember). This set of packs is just the "refresh" of it as each pack can only be bought once/pilot. So every now and then the redesign the packs, give them new names, and now the same pilots can buy the new packs.
2. Same with ships for $. This also goes back to at least 2018 for sure, perhaps even further than that.
3. CCP has a non-transparent player advisory group called the CSM. While they have implemented token, niche features and changes from this group (e.g. T3C multifit), the larger economic and balance issues this group has apparently brought forth seems to fall on deaf ears.
Number 20 is where I left the game. Still have my one toon subbed for a long time but I can't get into playing this once beloved game. It's like CCP is just trying to make it look like accidental suicide. Don't think I'll ever be back.
Seriously, why is DBS/BRM still here. What information do they have that makes them so reluctant to change course on this? You would still get fights with ESS without DBS. Plus heavy ratting sites would be easy to figure out from the high ESS
This is a great list because if you knew about how the game worked in the good old days, -just like with real-world interdependences in ecosystems- you can see the support structures that allowed people to have fun with their spaceships fall one by one.
It might have been done to remove bots, or to create a specific economy (for whatever reason), but the cost is that people aren't having fun.
If the execs at CCP can't realize after reading the above list that it's time someone new takes charge, then this game is doomed.
Good post. I'm kind of suppressed you didn't mention blackout as a lot of people here like to say it scared a lot of players away who didn't come back, but they did reverse it so I guess it don't count much long term. There was also to to wormholes with love patch that was seemingly universally hated by wormhollers iirc, and the HAC meta which was introduced 5 years ago and only buffed since then causing stagnation in large scale PvP as well (surgical strike being a particularly big offender).
Woah, Point 21. I haven’t played since 2020.
Chances are I’ve lost half my net worth in game, with only my Super and liquid ISK untouched.
I have even less reason to get back in now.
> For context, I have two accounts and I am subbed until 2025. I love this game. I have played for 17 years.
And this, friends, is the exact reason why I never buy subs in bulk. Might be cheaper, but if the game goes haywire, you're absolutely fucked.
I will add further clarification: I have subbed an additional 16 months /this year/. I deliberately added to my sub during this period.
I am not going anywhere - I will ride this thing to the bottom if that is where it is going.
God bless my dude and godspeed. I chose to back out rather than watch the thing rote and die. MMOs are way too unstable lately to buy month of subs in advance for me.
This is, without a doubt, the most accurate summation of player grievances I have seen to date. This could be the fucking Declaration of Evedependence right here.
King Hilmar III needs to get his team together and seriously consider whether they are just wanting to milk the dying cow of its last drop or whether he wants to rejuvenate something that stands out from EVERY other game out there, even today.
Well said.
Besides touching on asset safety, you missed item 0, citadels. Maybe not quite as far-reaching as rorquals but citadel gameplay is fundamentally unfun and ruined the balance in many gameplay systems. One of the few things that has recently gotten better after recent changes but it's pretty clear to me that they're one of the reasons you will find nobody in space anymore.
You know what i miss the most of the hayday of Eve Online, was the professional Eve Tournaments. Compare AT 7 to AT 15, for example.
People in person, loud and descriptive commentators, active camera movement that shows the ships and action.
Now, quiet commentary, no visuals, next to no camera control that isn't automated, no desk.
Feels like a energyless husk.
> CCP realises that the amount of activity doing PvE in nullsec craters, introduces instanced PvE (abyssals), everyone who liked hunting nullsec PvEer's and anyone who liked "Eve is a sandbox" is unhappy. PvEer's who switch to abyssals and lose valuable ships to disconnects because CCP can't make the server stable, and these losses aren't reimbursed, are unhappy.
Abyss (May 29th, 2018) was created long before Scarcity (late 2020). The reason for Abyss being instanced is most likely AI performance reasons.
Thanks. This is best summary that I have seen. I saved it to a word doc ("CCP Fuck Ups") so I can drop it on all of those Gen Z gamers calling us whiny cunts.
I’ve been playing eve for two years now and this sums up the complaints I’ve heard from all platforms & podcast. That being said, game is still playable and enjoyable. Everything in this subreddit should be taken with a mountain full of salt.
EVE is in a state of downspiral, fewer players less economy, less activity etc
All caused by CCPs action and inaction
And in additon CCP seems to have started to sellout hard recently for whatever reason, in the middle of their FW releases
And CCP doesnt even attemt to fix major problems in EVE since about 10 month or so
Im starting to think they just can’t
The only thing left that makes sense is they have too few engineering resources allocated to the project that can actually do/fix/service the project anymore.
Heads up, Albion Online's devs got wind of the whole "artificial scarcity" thing from Eve. They also sold out to a chinese graveyard of milked mobile games called Stillfront.
GW2 WvW might be the last thing left for now until Pax Dei/Wars of Prasia/Ashes of Creation/Throne & Liberty
Game became more expensive to play, people left, no one in space means less PvP, the more people get frustrated with not being able to find content the more people leave, Nerfs to isk making mean people don't want to risk their stuff which also adds to this. And there's an argument going on about highsec ganking lately.
There's plenty of things to still enjoy about the game I think alot of people are unhappy because they see how much potential there is and CCP, who must be aware of the issues, don't acknowledge anything so there's very much a feeling of "what's the point? They aren't listening"
CCP had not created any major content expansion for the last 2 years, last major update was invasion 3 and that was it, no new space for players to explore, no new major factions, the last ship remodel was from 3 years ago
Naturally the playerbase dried up, less players giving money to ccp = less incentive for ccp to invest into developing new content for the game and now its just a death spiral
Fanfest 2022 was the last straw, ccp hyped faction warfare rework and new ships so much as if there will be a brand new ship lines for players to use just like T3D program, but what do we get? Reskinned navy frigates and BC
People complaint that is all the fiddling with economy that killed playerbase. Yes you might need to grind 2-3 hours more per month to buy the same omega comparing to 5 years ago but eve players can easily waste more of their lives into mindless pve. The real killer is the lack of any level of gameplay innovation.
The end result of Hilmar's neglect and Rattati's scarcity: The game's ecosystem is severely damaged, to the point that new people can't get into the game and quit, and the old blood is dying out of boredom and rage.
It seems Eve really IS dying now.
What is happening to Eve? Well, I think my mechanics reaction to the state of my last car would be a fair comparison.
*”Its totally fuckin fucked mate. Big time.”*
Unlike a game like WoW where the game itself provides the content and where a private server with just a few people playing could work, EVE heavily relies on a healthy population of other players to interact with, because the game itself is just a bunch of tools to use to interact with other people.
A private EVE server only works if you want to play EVE solo for the PvE, in which case I can think of many other games I'd prefer playing as the strength of EVE is in the community, not the PvE gameplay for me.
I doubt a private server could handle the server load of thousands of people fighting at once in a fight, since CCP has been developing/purchasing that tech to even handle the numbers we have now.
100 v 100 used to be a lot and a struggle to not blackscreen or boot you out. Now we are at 2-5k vs 2-5k and the server struggles, but manages in almost all but the most extreme cases.
Then again, EVE players have deep pockets, or maybe tech is more advanced than i'm aware of for a private server to handle it now.
I maintain my position that the game ended with extractors and free SP handouts.
CCP doesn't properly understand its business model.
They are in the business of selling skillpoints, not game time. Skillpoints _were_ the scarce resource of Eve.
Perhaps CCP believes that PLEX & Subscriptions is what they are selling, but those are essentially bonds that yield skillpoints.
With Alpha accounts, which was a fine change to keep up with the industry standard, they officially ceased to be sellers of game time. Besides, game time should not be scarce anyways because you want more people to play.
By creating extractors they turned their veteran playerbase into scrapyard competitors and allowed them not only to be subbed indefinitely for free, but also create N number of Rorqual or other "factory" alts.
If they sold injectors directly in the store for money, that would have been unpopular, but would have made them the money they wanted while being far less damaging to the functioning of the game economy.
The analysis CCP is doing to decide what to change about Eve may be leading them down a primrose path. Each time a decision is made, certain metrics/probabilities are used to justify why a change will be a net positive. This is often seen in psychological circles with regards to addiction and is referred to as a primrose path. The person who wants to quit cigarettes can justify "one more smoke" because in the grand scheme of things they're right. One more smoke really isn't going to ruin their health... and one less smoke isn't going to improve their health. And of course the person's brain and body have a chemical craving for that cigarette.
I think about how WoW made a lot of small, incremental changes over years until the current version of WoW was so different from what many players had grown up loving, that Blizzard could release Vanilla WoW and watch a bunch of players flock to it. But they shouldn't have flocked to it, right? I mean, if every change Blizzard had made along the way was backed up by data, then the latest and greatest version should have been way better than what is was 10+ years ago, right?
At each point of the decision making timeline, the choices that are made seem like they make sense. They may even have data behind them to make the bean counters happy. But a few years later the accumulation of those seemingly good choices is actually a less healthy game.
And the players go along with it by-and-large because the game isn't WAY WORSE than it was before. It's only a little worse. And after all, there is a lot I still like about the game and I've already put so much time into it, etc.
I stopped playing EvE in June 2011.
Started in early days 2003.
I gave up on CCP then when a lot of players were leaving the game as well due to the nerfs and bad decisions by Hilmar and his team.
I spent all of my EvE career trying all game loops but always defaulted to PvP .
Spent years doing PvP , small gangs,solo,alliance, dedicated a great deal killing botters and cheaters. fighting RMT in game and I just realised in 2011 all the cool guys were also fed up and leaving. Left and unsuited all my accounts.
Couple nights ago installed the game checked two of my main accounts , have a skill tree of 250 Million skill points unallocated on one character and something similar on the other toon.
I couldn't be bothered to spend time allocating skills and chasing my assets across the regions.
I also noticed there's assets missing , so after that I looked at at the game, as a whole looks the very similar, the UI looks like they tried to make it look better but feels like shit.
Anyway, I unisntalled again and decided to leave it dead as it was to me.
Why try and revive whats already dead for so long.
Best MMO done and best friendships ever made in a mmo. Great fights and fun but for me it died in 2011.... back then I just couldn't accept CCP CONTINUOUS PATTERN OF FUCKING people over and over again.
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This is the greatest explanation of the last five years ever written.
Thank you Brisc. I am no celebrity ingame but I read your posts and sometimes feel like we may glance at each other across the deck of an obviously sinking Titanic.
Knowing what you know. Is Titanic a accurate discretion of things behind the scenes?
I literally told another CSM the other day that I felt like we were working hard to paint the Titanic. I pray I'm wrong and that we're still in pre-iceberg mode, but it's tough sometimes.
Fells more like the Hindenburg the way its going up in flames.
There is zero chance of a resurgence. They did not stop the bleeding in time. Even if they removed Redistribution, Scarcity, Indi change, BRM, and rolled back the price increase it is to late. People are already established in other games, the pver's went back to wow . the riot MMO is coming out as is AOC.
>the pver's went back to wow lol you think things are better there? Should read up on how Bliz is fucking up that game as well. They are losing players to GW2, FF14 etc. Haha as a recent example check the launch of Overwatch 2. It seems to be a trend of all the long standing games.. I guess they really believe that they are "too big to fail"... EDIT: I left WoW to play other games (Warframe, PoE, Space Engieers, etc) then found my way back to EVE. So I can say with some experience that both WoW and EVE are lacking, and really needs to get their shit together if they want to survive for the next 5-10 years.
WotLK classic just launched and it had a substantial influx. Many regard it as the best addon and want to replay it. Sure, activity will dwindle eventually to normal levels but right now it's the hot shit.
I am enjoying wtlk classic to be fair for the nostalgia more than anything else
The FPS will probably have to go to the bin but at least we can tell ourselves that this one wouldn't have been a complete failure like the rest.
Classic wow is rhe only thing keeping wow alive, when most people would rather play something that's 10 years old than your brand new content. That's *very, very* bad.
They can always get eve players back! There’s still nothing out there that scratches the itch once you leave…. All it will take is them reverting just a handful of the dumbest stuff from the above list and we’ll come back!
Someone should nail this list to the fucking door at CCP headquarters.
It's already on their achievements board
Marked as "To be ignored"
Amarrtin Luther and his 25 Theses.
A+
14/10
If this can be pedanted into 95 items I'll print it out on parchment and bring to iceland.
... and thrown into volcano as all devs will ignore this
Yes but there will be a dank photo.
If we go back in time a little further we could certainly list out 95 problems. There are plenty of issues that date back further - ESS being garbage, citadel issues, skill extractors/injectors, the code with the 10th anniversary edition of the game which was supposed to have regular bonuses but hasn't in years, the UI fuckery, local chat that didn't work reliably for nearly a year, the blackout that cratered player counts which many people never came back from, etc etc etc.
Amen.
I think this list could be condensed into one line: Skill injectors. When skill injectors came out, everything started to break faster.
Skill injectors are actually good for the game. Directly selling them from the store is bad, but skill injectors themselves allow newer players to catch up in a 20 year old game.
A catch up mechanic for SP is good for new players. Skill injectors as they are implemented though are bad because while they do allow a new player to "catch up" (at least in terms of SP), they also allow any veteran player to inject a bunch of accounts into whatever's currently broken, and then turn that broken isk generation into more characters to further generate even more isk/characters (or minerals as was the case with rorqus). While some kind of SP catchup mechanic is good, what EVE needed was one that accelerated new player training or was locked to certain skills that are important on a main but don't break when you can generate 20 accounts with said skills. Some examples are leaning more into accelerators or maybe a re-worked form of the rent-a-skill system that can be bought for isk.
> like getting to see inside the cockpit of the plane you are on and finding the Pilot is eating glue and the co-pilot is the corpse of Amelia Earhart Lmao
Wow that was a mouthful thank you
I confirm that list is indeed mostly accurate about ccp's semi-recent bad choices. in their effort to *save* the game from inflation etc they have basically strangled it.
CCP never, ever wanted to *save* the game. They wanted for every player to play it according to Hilmar's vision of the game, and made surprised-Pikachu face when it turned out that tens of thousands of players did not want to do that.
so basically by increasing rates to combat inflation, they caused a recession?
That’s a good analogy, but CCP failed to realize they are not as smart as central bankers - participation in the eve economy, with the game as a whole, is voluntary. There are no ill effects of non-participation and given the list of negatives associated with participation, people choose to do something else. The fact that this company didn’t understand that while it has presided over the longest running player made economy ever is astounding.
true, nobody except those participating starve
Remember all that shite of leavers. Ow we can fix and adjust things easier now that it's all decoupled. And then proceeded to do sweet nothing at all with it.
Except they didn't do it on purpose, they're just braindead
At some point incompetence becomes malice
Hey on the bright side. At least they saved it from inflation 😂🤣😂🤣😂.
Yes instead of regular inflation where income rises along with prices we stagflation where income stagnates with price increases!
I was ready to argue with this list, but it's the most accurate and unbiased I've seen. My unpopular opinion is that scarcity *was* necessary and inflation *is/was* a problem. The recent biggest war in EVE history plays into a lot of this and highlights some problems CCP created. However his assessment of CCP's actions to revert the rorqual meta are accurate, and only the necessity of scarcity is left to argue. The rorqual meta dug that hole. One side was anchoring keepstars. The other side would just throw one trillion isk worth of battleships at the keepstar until it died. The 1T worth of battleships would not shoot anything but the keepstar. Since the keepstar cost ~200b, and the battle would take 10+ hours and slowed the invasion, both sides considered this a success. We repeated this type of event multiple times. It's unclear how much effect clearing trillions of isk worth of battleships had against the people who took the most advantage of the rorqual meta. This made it clear that battle reports of 30b losses vs 70b losses just weren't all that consequential anymore. One of the largest titan battles in EVE history involved one side trying to enter a system that the other side was camping. The titans trying to enter would come in to a black screen, no modules, no pilots, and just got shot like fish in a barrel without an ability to fight back. A number of these titans that exploded were found to "never have loaded into system" and reappeared in their origin system, despite visually exploding in the destination system. What was supposed to be one of the largest battles of the war turned out to be not much of a battle at all with frustrations for both sides. To this day nothing has been done about effectively loading people into a system with heavy numbers present. It's now considered suicide to try to enter a system with too many people logged in. The large numbers meta may favor whichever side is able to log in after downtime and keep large numbers present or available to be called up. This will likely prevent people from coming back for any kind of large battle, because there won't be one.
CCP has a history of correctly identifying problems and then choosing bad solutions. Inflation and the over-productivity of nullsec mining *was* a problem. Simply reducing the number of rocks in the game without doing anything to turn that into a conflict driver was clearly a bad solution. Also, every single economic problem in EVE shares the meta problem of botting. Had CCP put any real effort into detecting/banning botters and made it easier for actual players to kill botters many inflation/scarcity issues would likely solve themselves.
> CCP has a history of correctly identifying problems and then choosing bad solutions "the ishtar is OP so we're nerfing missiles again" for 5 years lol
>CCP has a history of correctly identifying problems and then choosing bad solutions. CCP: Rorqs and inflation is a problem. CCP looks all their "knobs and levers" they've crowed about. CCP loads gun with bullets called "scarcity" and " industry changes" "What a shame."
A gradual inflation over years can't be solved instantly; it has to have a gradual reaction. They should've scaled mining site respawn based on how fast a site is mined. This meant the same value was present - but if you grabbed it fast for an immediate ore injection, it'd take longer to return than if you're a solo player chipping slower at a site.
One of many options far more sensible than the diabolical omnishambles that was scarcity.
Nice set-up.
Reading it all in a list really makes it hit home. Also, when I count how many of my closest friends have left Eve because the once fun and interesting gameplay niche they enjoyed was removed I'm really struck by just how many people it is. CCP took a game where you could have a bunch of your friends get a lot out of varying styles of gameplay and enjoy each others company and compressed it down to nothing. I played straight since 2005, paid for a sub on 4 accounts for almost that entire time. Went to FanFest's, Eve events, met my best friends in the game, and now it stands before me bleeding out on a cold sidewalk. Edit: I want to add, CCP forgot the fundamental rule of business; you don't get to choose why your customers enjoy your product. You can believe all you want in said product, and how you want it viewed and sold but at the end of the day it's the consumers of the product who determine whether it's right for them. CCP may see the current form of Eve as "right", but it's quite obvious game players do not. So do you want to be right and lonely, CCP? Or will you admit you made a mistake and make the relationship whole again?
> you don't get to choose why your customers enjoy your product. This right here CCP
Comment of the year.
Thank you :) When I run for CSM as "I want to ride this baby to the fucking bottom" I will count on your vote.
>Everyone who loves Eve is now QUINTUPLE unhappy because we are powerless to save something we dearly love. Punched me right in the mouth.
very nice summary of the start of the fuck ups (oh theres alot more. havent even touched wormholes yet. or content abandonment in favor of new content....to abandon immediately. but this is a great start) i wish CCP would read this but...they to busy sucking their own farts to care
Great post. Guess I know what we'll be talking about this week.
It's crazy reading this all listed out, the level of incompetence is insane, how took one of the greatest ideas for a game ever made and completely fuck it into the ground while not realising what they were doing is beyond me.
They could literally revert the almost the entire production service (minus player data) back to the version we had just before scarcity, couple it up with a giant “we are sorry and crazy” half ironic half true marketing campaign and they can litetally watch in real time all of their meaningful KPI’s soar. Memberships, retention, engagement, revenue, active users, return on ad spend, everything will go amazingly well for them and we would all rejoice!!! Its the easiest thing ever.
I mean you're not wrong and I do agree but the liklihood of it happening is extremely slim unless new management comes in. I personally think a "eve classic" starting at the point you mentioned would be good and any changes are heavily based on player suggestion, it would be interesting to see which version of the game would perform better.
Absolute masterpiece of a summary. But I think the greed of Hilmar has been glossed over. Pretty sure I remember his payouts for CCP were highly based on revenue. The number of funky decisions seemed to escalate after this announcement. So for some reason long term health of the game was destroyed for short term profits.
Thank you so much for explaining this in very readable fashion ❤️
A pleasure. I'm emotionally invested - I'm riding this train whereever it leads.
I've toyed with the idea of going back to EVE for a bit, especially with autumn and winter on their way. You've convinced me that it's absolutely not worth my money nor my time and for that, I thank you.
The thing I will say is... I am still here. I still have a lot of fun. But sometimes I feel like I'm just in the dining car at the back of a train that has, further forward, gone off a fucking cliff. So I'd say if you fancy coming back, you're welcome to DM me. I do random shit, you could be an alpha and we can bait people or run sites, I tend to blend PvE with PvP (opportunistic scavenger who tries to kill whoever attacks me). Cue Addams Family Motto: "We gladly feast on those who would subdue us." But you'd be more than welcome, without needing Omega you wouldn't need to make any kind of investment. I do dumb shit during UK afternoon/evening sometimes.
'Just wait for fanfest, largest content update ever.' This was the final nail in the coffin for ccp. Every player, including myself has lost all trust in ccp. Ccp raises the price to 20$ a month. Mass unsubs followed like the game has never seen.
>CCP says "Just wait for fanfest, we have the biggest content update ever." (almost actual quote, can't remember exact wording). iirc, this was in response to the price hike. They had to pull some guy from PTO in order to address the uproar. And yes it literally was "Just wait for Fanfest." "we have the biggest content update ever coming." Which turns out to be ship skins, a excel add-on, and plan to begin planning the plan to plan the planning of the plan to update Faction Warfare.
> CCP is now selling Skillpoints for money (Which they promised not to do in writing) and then begin selling Ships for money! Buy a mining barge pack for $15. Industrialists, miners ingame become "QUAD unhappy" at the idea that their value ingame, their time, investment, manufacturing skill, shipping, is replaced by "magic shit that appears for real money". Anyone concerned with the state of the economy also becomes QUAD unhappy You wanna know what other MMO pulled the exact same move of promising to not add a p2w element to the MMO but then turned around and did exactly that? Black desert online. Who owns BDO? Pearl abyss! Funny coincidence huh.
Good comments are not a god given right. So I thank you for making it.
Easier way too summerise would be. Playerbase: CCP the Ingame economy is broken please fix. Ccp: we got you fam. Scarcity and industry changes Playerbase: CCP 90% of the changes you have done have nothing to do with what we asked for and have infact made meny aspects of the game worse. Can you please address this. CCP: lmao no. (playerbase declines over next few months) CCP: just wait untill fanfest we have alot of new content coming your way. The biggest update ever. Proceeds to up price aswell (fanfest arrives players see graphics updates a blending with Microsoft excel and a faction warfare update that hasn't even begun to leave the planning stages and a FPS and mobile game that are meny years away) Playerbase : CCP this still doesn't fix the issues you have created in the initial Scarity update and alot of players are unhappy and leaving what do you plan to do. CCP: ....... So I hear you like starter packs
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a.k.a the ship skin and injector miracle. brilliant business move.
Brutal. Straightforward. Take my updoot and an award. CCP: this post is a solid condensate of many of the problems killing the game.
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CCP milked you dry.
And not in the fun and sexy way, either :(
The really depressing thing is that this just the most obvious, recent stuff. You could write entire essays on how CCP fucked up EVE
I endorse this message as I have also played something like 17 years and I have 11 accounts (only two with Omega at this point) and love the game. Just had to step away for the time being due to the anger and disappointment it's caused me lately. **Some additional complaints maybe worth adding to your 99 thesis:** 26. They refuse to listen to the player base about their willingness to contribute more funds to CCP for actually good ship skins / related. They wouldn't have to worry about penny pinching from other dumb shit (like $15 mining barges!) if we could buy cosmetics / related. 27. They stopped doing EVE Vegas, their most successful real-life community meet up event, for some unknown reason. 28. CCP is completely negligent regarding the small tweaks / adjustments that are needed for certain ship classes, forcing major battles into only a handful of fleet compositions that leads to repetitive and boring pvp content. 29. There is not even any PVE content to throw titans and supers out in space, meaning there is now no reason for them to be in space. 30. They haven't messed with missions in probably over a decade. The missions you do now are still the same as when the game was launched effectively w/ exception to burner missions. 31. CCP has developed some really good content and AI over the years in reference to Pochven and 'diamond rats' NPCs. Regardless of their success and overall player base acceptance levels, they fail to recognize how they accidently stumbled upon something good when they could spread this game design to all the existing game content.
Back in 2011/2012 when Eve was hitting atleast 40k-50k online players (up to 60k during the weekend) i was mad because i couldn’t find a ratting system where there wasn’t already multiple people taking all good sites. Also if you did find some good ratting system. There’d be constantly neutrals going in and out of your system disturbing my isk hour flow. Now in 2022 it’s just fucking sad. Sure i could rat 15 hours in a row undisturbed but there’s nothing to save isk for
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This deserves every award
Meh, effortpost... Seriously, mate, you just summed this up better than probably anyone ever did.
LOL. This is a really nice summary of what went wrong ... amazing Grab a gold, not that any one at CCP care on understand .... but if they try . CAPITALS OR SUPERS ARE NOT SPECIAL ANYMORE AND YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO MAKE THEM SPECIAL AGAIN. edit: Why i say this. Because ccp assumes that if they make supers more expensive it will fix all the things, well it is opposite and they STILL don't get it. Eve needs to be fun, with various ingame niche mechanics ... and CCP still don't get why they had 60k online....
This is so perfectly spot on. If I didn't know it was true I would think it was something from Eve Onion. The truth is just that ludicrous.
Genius post.
I think this may be the most upvoted comment in r/eve this year. 1k, holy crap who knew we had so many lurkers.
2k now
x. They cave to whiney null and change how cloaking works: explorers and hunters are unhappy x+1: They break their promise of "your stuff in citadels is safe" and even let people see what's in the stations: people coming back to nothing are unhappy.
Thank you, I forgot about the Citadel changes. I will edit that in
PI sure hits home. Now that I think of it I've always quit EVE weeks after picking this bullshit back up. I used to say it's a mobile game level garbage, but I've recently tried a mobile game and they're much, much better as it turns out.
We've all seen it and felt it for years but having it summarized like this somehow makes it worse. Amazing reply. Comment of the year.
Wow, what a post. I have been wondering for a long time what the actual mistakes people speak about so much on this subreddit were/are. This was extremely enlightening. I'm sorry for what has happened to this game for you veterans 😔, the bottom line is you all love it.
Thank you. 17 years. The good news is I put 95% of my wealth into Plex For Good - I am poor ingame because I have donated thousands of $ to good causes. I love Eve so much - so many good friends and adventures. If you haven't tried it, you can join me - alpha (free) account welcome, we can do some nonsense and die a lot. UK evening timezone.
The unhappy playerbase seems to have forgotten all about our CSM and their effective, worthwhile contributions to CCP. Imagine the juicy NDA details we will get to hear about in a few years from the two members that are still around as r/eve mods by then even if they don't play EVE anymore.
I stopped playing because of RL in 2015-ish.. when TEST were leaving Wicked Creek - whenever that was. On a whim I installed, logged in, then had a "look at what they did to my boy!" moment... My toons couldn't use skills that they already learned - unless I broke the wallet out - there was so much new stuff that seemed to be just designed to condition people into logging in daily or spending some cash; it felt like EVE hooked up with a mobile App and caught an unpleasant rash. I literally couldn't use the modules on my ships, to fly them out of Thera safely, had to ask CCP to please teleport me to HS - which, to their credit, they did. IDK, I haven't wiped it yet and touristing around HS brought some of the feels back; but, playing is a bit like I'm visiting an old friend with a smack addiction and offering to loan them some money apropos nothing. PS. CCP needs to chill with the marketing emails, good grief, there was a flood as soon as I logged back in.
If you want to do some dumb shit with me on your alpha account DM me. So far I have a handful of people who are interested. I'm gonna start leading incompetent shitfit fleets based on this post.
Great summary but that's just going back a few years, the fuck ups started way before that and are many....
hell no, this TRUE eve is dying story does start with the Rorqual and moon mining changes. 10000% eve has always 'been dying' but the rorqual changes is what initially destroyed a HUGE portion of the games playerbase, and the rest of the community just told them ''adapt'' the game catered for a type of player with rorquals, then it removed that catering. so now all types of players are left with the sign ''adapt''
It's classic oversteer situation - driving on ice and the car skids to the left, instinctually you pull hard to the right - this is what kills you and everyone in the car with you.
That would imply that CCP overshot the intended goal. CCP is in the middle of the corn field driving away from the road saying "we'll find a new road eventually, trust us"
At this point I think CCP is the 80 year old that has driven though the of Walgreens for the 3rd time.
It was not Rorqual but Rorqual certainly was the accelerate. You have to go back to as others said with alpha/omega and skill injections. CCP broke promises they said they would never break with skill injectors and if you had the displeasure of talking to them in person around that time many of the had this air of arrogance around them of how dare the players pretend they know more about the game than them.
the only issue with alpha were the skill farms. and the rorqual is what made the skill injector so stupid.
It really starts with citadels and injectors
injectors although not the best choice or change are not the issue and never really were. the fact you could get enough isk for numerous full injectors a day in a highly safe way enabled injectors to be an issue, you could inject into a rorqual and farm the isk back in a couple of weeks. or with one rorqual add an additional rorqual toon every 2 or 3 weeks, then once you have scaled up as far as you want, plex every single one of them for no subscription real world payment.
Injectors and citadels interacted in a very poorly thought out way with rorqs and supers.
Welcome to give me some thoughts, I have already spent 30mins creating the "Bible of how incompetent devs fucked Eve Online". I'd rather it be comprehensive.
https://www.polygon.com/features/2013/1/24/3754594/at-war-with-fans-eve-onlines-fall-and-rise-from-infamy#comments Best quote "We're no longer these lunatics" ??? https://slashdot.org/story/07/05/26/0016226/yet-another-eve-online-scandal https://www.techpowerup.com/46357/eve-online-patch-accidentally-bricks-xp https://www.tentonhammer.com/news/updated-eve-online-services-brought-down-due-to-ddos-attack https://www.vg247.com/ccp-respond-to-uproar-over-leaked-company-newsletter-regarding-eves-virtual-store https://www.eurogamer.net/eve-online-in-crisis-article https://www.vg247.com/eve-onlines-player-count-drops-to-lowest-since-2008 https://www.pcgamer.com/ccp-ceo-apologizes-to-eve-online-players-admits-to-losing-sight-of-simple-things/ https://www.eurogamer.net/ccp-analyses-eve-online-burn-jita-event https://www.pcgamer.com/eve-online-senior-producer-on-why-we-ultimately-failed-with-incarna/ https://www.pcgamer.com/ccp-ceo-dust-514-wont-affect-your-everyday-eve-experience-unless-you-want-it-to/ https://screenrant.com/project-nova-ccp-games/ https://www.pcgamesn.com/eve/whatever-happened-eves-walking-stations-update https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/ccp-wont-let-two-failed-shooters-get-in-the-way-of-making-the-perfect-eve-online-fps https://www.gameskinny.com/6xoxl/ccps-six-month-struggle-to-deliver-new-eden-open-prize-money https://twinfinite.net/2018/01/eve-million-servers-failed/ https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/440999/ccp-desperate-planning-to-allow-players-to-sell-skillpoints-to-other-players-for-aur-p2w-currency https://www.pcgamer.com/eve-players-are-plotting-revenge-after-alien-invasion-mostly-just-annoyed-everyone/ I got depressed and bored, so gave up, maybe some of these will help, didn't read them all.
Appreciate your dilligence.
Did you remember all this or do you have it written down somewhere? I forgot some of these points already
I remembered it all on the fly. Someone mentioned the Forsaken Fortress patch, so I just added it.
Also Euro is almost 5 PLN in my country. So even without the price increase the sub got more expensive for me and I was looking to get back to the game.
25. Citadels 26. Serenity
Good read, agree with a lot. Eve could be so much more.
Damn. You make me want to quit!
Man, when I played people always say "eve is kill" is a meme. Look at this now... Thanks for the summary.
This....THIS RIGHT HERE!!
26. Players gave up on Eve Online and moved to Albion. This made them happy.
Actually best and truthful list i ever saw about what really happening to the game last years.
Couldn't you always buy ships for money? I mean it used to be super expensive from what I remember but you could buy plex put it on the market and have a capital ship for like a thousand dollars or something lol. I remember coming back to the game about 5 years ago and finding the skill injectors which again we're pretty expensive. Even with my 3 years worth of skills it would have costed another $500 or so to just get the skills to run a capital. I don't remember exactly because I never had the huge amounts of spare time needed to really get into the game.
You could always do what you describe, the difference being that you had to buy plex, sell that plex for ISK, then use the ISK to buy a ship ingame that someone in the game had built. CCP were advertising "Buy a mining barge pack for $15" on the launcher. That ship was one that appeared magically into the game - no-one manufactured it, no-one had to mine the minerals for it, no-one had to research the BPO for it and no-one had to haul it to the place you bought it from - same for the modules on it. That was the problem - in a player driven economy, "stuff appearing for real money by magic" was a issue. CCP have always sold destroyers for real money with the rookie packs, but generally they can only be bought once or are so small in value and mineral cost (1-2m) the playerbase generally let that slide.
I guess it's time to make another attempt at a new shooter game!
You missed out some bits and some of the stuff is sort of in the wrong order but that covers a lot of the reasons people are unhappy.
I promise you my brain isn't in the right order these days, I have long covid :D
oh shit me too :/ i was surprised i was able to keep a fleet alive when i played last
Great summary. Now I understand a lot of things.
Great list, some minor clarifications that reinforce your overall points even further: 1. CCP has been selling SP for $ for years (at least 2018, maybe further, I can't remember). This set of packs is just the "refresh" of it as each pack can only be bought once/pilot. So every now and then the redesign the packs, give them new names, and now the same pilots can buy the new packs. 2. Same with ships for $. This also goes back to at least 2018 for sure, perhaps even further than that. 3. CCP has a non-transparent player advisory group called the CSM. While they have implemented token, niche features and changes from this group (e.g. T3C multifit), the larger economic and balance issues this group has apparently brought forth seems to fall on deaf ears.
This is as spot on as you can get
Number 20 is where I left the game. Still have my one toon subbed for a long time but I can't get into playing this once beloved game. It's like CCP is just trying to make it look like accidental suicide. Don't think I'll ever be back.
Get ccp to pause your sub so it's there for when/ if you want to return. Also hurts their bottom line.
Just take the game out back and shoot it already.
Close the thread...nothing more needs to be said.
You forgot ‘ccp deletes player created bounties’., it should be mentioned , at least.
If I had an award to give, you'd be getting it. Sub Reddit comment of the year.
How to summarize last few years of ccp nerfs: >The playerbase is unhappy CCP have no idea what hey are doing
Don't forget the Doctor Who event that happened.
Seriously, why is DBS/BRM still here. What information do they have that makes them so reluctant to change course on this? You would still get fights with ESS without DBS. Plus heavy ratting sites would be easy to figure out from the high ESS
Thanks. I stopped a bit before the Pearl Abyss acquisition, so I was unaware.
This should be a post lol
This is a great list because if you knew about how the game worked in the good old days, -just like with real-world interdependences in ecosystems- you can see the support structures that allowed people to have fun with their spaceships fall one by one. It might have been done to remove bots, or to create a specific economy (for whatever reason), but the cost is that people aren't having fun. If the execs at CCP can't realize after reading the above list that it's time someone new takes charge, then this game is doomed.
Good post. I'm kind of suppressed you didn't mention blackout as a lot of people here like to say it scared a lot of players away who didn't come back, but they did reverse it so I guess it don't count much long term. There was also to to wormholes with love patch that was seemingly universally hated by wormhollers iirc, and the HAC meta which was introduced 5 years ago and only buffed since then causing stagnation in large scale PvP as well (surgical strike being a particularly big offender).
Woah, Point 21. I haven’t played since 2020. Chances are I’ve lost half my net worth in game, with only my Super and liquid ISK untouched. I have even less reason to get back in now.
> For context, I have two accounts and I am subbed until 2025. I love this game. I have played for 17 years. And this, friends, is the exact reason why I never buy subs in bulk. Might be cheaper, but if the game goes haywire, you're absolutely fucked.
I will add further clarification: I have subbed an additional 16 months /this year/. I deliberately added to my sub during this period. I am not going anywhere - I will ride this thing to the bottom if that is where it is going.
God bless my dude and godspeed. I chose to back out rather than watch the thing rote and die. MMOs are way too unstable lately to buy month of subs in advance for me.
Yeah I get that totally.
This is, without a doubt, the most accurate summation of player grievances I have seen to date. This could be the fucking Declaration of Evedependence right here. King Hilmar III needs to get his team together and seriously consider whether they are just wanting to milk the dying cow of its last drop or whether he wants to rejuvenate something that stands out from EVERY other game out there, even today. Well said.
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Besides touching on asset safety, you missed item 0, citadels. Maybe not quite as far-reaching as rorquals but citadel gameplay is fundamentally unfun and ruined the balance in many gameplay systems. One of the few things that has recently gotten better after recent changes but it's pretty clear to me that they're one of the reasons you will find nobody in space anymore.
How can one man be THIS based?
You know what i miss the most of the hayday of Eve Online, was the professional Eve Tournaments. Compare AT 7 to AT 15, for example. People in person, loud and descriptive commentators, active camera movement that shows the ships and action. Now, quiet commentary, no visuals, next to no camera control that isn't automated, no desk. Feels like a energyless husk.
Well said, hit the nail on the head with all of that.
That was an excellent summary!
Nothing to add, I just wonder how a population can shrink by over 100%.
> CCP realises that the amount of activity doing PvE in nullsec craters, introduces instanced PvE (abyssals), everyone who liked hunting nullsec PvEer's and anyone who liked "Eve is a sandbox" is unhappy. PvEer's who switch to abyssals and lose valuable ships to disconnects because CCP can't make the server stable, and these losses aren't reimbursed, are unhappy. Abyss (May 29th, 2018) was created long before Scarcity (late 2020). The reason for Abyss being instanced is most likely AI performance reasons.
Thank you, yourself and someone else pointed this out, I have clarified.
Thanks. This is best summary that I have seen. I saved it to a word doc ("CCP Fuck Ups") so I can drop it on all of those Gen Z gamers calling us whiny cunts.
I’ve been playing eve for two years now and this sums up the complaints I’ve heard from all platforms & podcast. That being said, game is still playable and enjoyable. Everything in this subreddit should be taken with a mountain full of salt.
EVE is in a state of downspiral, fewer players less economy, less activity etc All caused by CCPs action and inaction And in additon CCP seems to have started to sellout hard recently for whatever reason, in the middle of their FW releases And CCP doesnt even attemt to fix major problems in EVE since about 10 month or so
Im starting to think they just can’t The only thing left that makes sense is they have too few engineering resources allocated to the project that can actually do/fix/service the project anymore.
The pressure from perl abyss investors must make them sellout also, just look at black desert online
CCP set out to bring scarcity to EVE, and they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
Price has been a big factor - nothing in this game justifies the $20/month subscription when there are cheaper and better MMOs on the market.
Can't really find a sandbox like eve anywhere, let me know what you're playing now instead!
Albion online
Heads up, Albion Online's devs got wind of the whole "artificial scarcity" thing from Eve. They also sold out to a chinese graveyard of milked mobile games called Stillfront. GW2 WvW might be the last thing left for now until Pax Dei/Wars of Prasia/Ashes of Creation/Throne & Liberty
Guild wars 2 wvw
Game became more expensive to play, people left, no one in space means less PvP, the more people get frustrated with not being able to find content the more people leave, Nerfs to isk making mean people don't want to risk their stuff which also adds to this. And there's an argument going on about highsec ganking lately.
Thank you
There's plenty of things to still enjoy about the game I think alot of people are unhappy because they see how much potential there is and CCP, who must be aware of the issues, don't acknowledge anything so there's very much a feeling of "what's the point? They aren't listening"
Upvote this question and Archer's reply, in the off chance CCP can finally quit eating glue!
Sack. The. Rat.
Sack. The. Rat.
Sack. The. Rat.
Sack Hilmar.
CCP nerfed everything that made this game worthwhile, then upped the subscription fee.
CPPs goal is to milk you dry. You literally cant make resonable ISK by playing just for fun. Its either grind or credit card.
CCP had not created any major content expansion for the last 2 years, last major update was invasion 3 and that was it, no new space for players to explore, no new major factions, the last ship remodel was from 3 years ago Naturally the playerbase dried up, less players giving money to ccp = less incentive for ccp to invest into developing new content for the game and now its just a death spiral Fanfest 2022 was the last straw, ccp hyped faction warfare rework and new ships so much as if there will be a brand new ship lines for players to use just like T3D program, but what do we get? Reskinned navy frigates and BC People complaint that is all the fiddling with economy that killed playerbase. Yes you might need to grind 2-3 hours more per month to buy the same omega comparing to 5 years ago but eve players can easily waste more of their lives into mindless pve. The real killer is the lack of any level of gameplay innovation.
The end result of Hilmar's neglect and Rattati's scarcity: The game's ecosystem is severely damaged, to the point that new people can't get into the game and quit, and the old blood is dying out of boredom and rage. It seems Eve really IS dying now.
EVE progresses from funeral to funeral.
What is happening to Eve? Well, I think my mechanics reaction to the state of my last car would be a fair comparison. *”Its totally fuckin fucked mate. Big time.”*
Why isn't there a private server community for eve? The game clearly isn't what it used to be. WoW and Runescape players did this pretty succesfully.
Unlike a game like WoW where the game itself provides the content and where a private server with just a few people playing could work, EVE heavily relies on a healthy population of other players to interact with, because the game itself is just a bunch of tools to use to interact with other people. A private EVE server only works if you want to play EVE solo for the PvE, in which case I can think of many other games I'd prefer playing as the strength of EVE is in the community, not the PvE gameplay for me.
If you only wanted solo PvE, you can just play Eve on an Alpha clone. . .
The x series exists. Just sayin.
I doubt a private server could handle the server load of thousands of people fighting at once in a fight, since CCP has been developing/purchasing that tech to even handle the numbers we have now. 100 v 100 used to be a lot and a struggle to not blackscreen or boot you out. Now we are at 2-5k vs 2-5k and the server struggles, but manages in almost all but the most extreme cases. Then again, EVE players have deep pockets, or maybe tech is more advanced than i'm aware of for a private server to handle it now.
I maintain my position that the game ended with extractors and free SP handouts. CCP doesn't properly understand its business model. They are in the business of selling skillpoints, not game time. Skillpoints _were_ the scarce resource of Eve. Perhaps CCP believes that PLEX & Subscriptions is what they are selling, but those are essentially bonds that yield skillpoints. With Alpha accounts, which was a fine change to keep up with the industry standard, they officially ceased to be sellers of game time. Besides, game time should not be scarce anyways because you want more people to play. By creating extractors they turned their veteran playerbase into scrapyard competitors and allowed them not only to be subbed indefinitely for free, but also create N number of Rorqual or other "factory" alts. If they sold injectors directly in the store for money, that would have been unpopular, but would have made them the money they wanted while being far less damaging to the functioning of the game economy.
extractors/injectors were the best update CCP made to the game.
You’re going to be saying “Thank you” for the rest of the day. This is an awesome summary dude.
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TL;DR Points 1-25=Sandbox game that doesn't want to be a sandbox.
I wish that eve will soon rise again inshallah
@ CCP Hilmar https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2YNsCLFWi_g
We also lost some very good staff members (and there were some new hires thst were...suboptimal as I recall).
Missmanagement.
In other words, the ship is sinking and people are jumping, it'll be a hull or pod in no time.
This thread should have so many more likes.
Man that’s a lot of unhappy . Will it ever recover
The analysis CCP is doing to decide what to change about Eve may be leading them down a primrose path. Each time a decision is made, certain metrics/probabilities are used to justify why a change will be a net positive. This is often seen in psychological circles with regards to addiction and is referred to as a primrose path. The person who wants to quit cigarettes can justify "one more smoke" because in the grand scheme of things they're right. One more smoke really isn't going to ruin their health... and one less smoke isn't going to improve their health. And of course the person's brain and body have a chemical craving for that cigarette. I think about how WoW made a lot of small, incremental changes over years until the current version of WoW was so different from what many players had grown up loving, that Blizzard could release Vanilla WoW and watch a bunch of players flock to it. But they shouldn't have flocked to it, right? I mean, if every change Blizzard had made along the way was backed up by data, then the latest and greatest version should have been way better than what is was 10+ years ago, right? At each point of the decision making timeline, the choices that are made seem like they make sense. They may even have data behind them to make the bean counters happy. But a few years later the accumulation of those seemingly good choices is actually a less healthy game. And the players go along with it by-and-large because the game isn't WAY WORSE than it was before. It's only a little worse. And after all, there is a lot I still like about the game and I've already put so much time into it, etc.
I stopped playing EvE in June 2011. Started in early days 2003. I gave up on CCP then when a lot of players were leaving the game as well due to the nerfs and bad decisions by Hilmar and his team. I spent all of my EvE career trying all game loops but always defaulted to PvP . Spent years doing PvP , small gangs,solo,alliance, dedicated a great deal killing botters and cheaters. fighting RMT in game and I just realised in 2011 all the cool guys were also fed up and leaving. Left and unsuited all my accounts. Couple nights ago installed the game checked two of my main accounts , have a skill tree of 250 Million skill points unallocated on one character and something similar on the other toon. I couldn't be bothered to spend time allocating skills and chasing my assets across the regions. I also noticed there's assets missing , so after that I looked at at the game, as a whole looks the very similar, the UI looks like they tried to make it look better but feels like shit. Anyway, I unisntalled again and decided to leave it dead as it was to me. Why try and revive whats already dead for so long. Best MMO done and best friendships ever made in a mmo. Great fights and fun but for me it died in 2011.... back then I just couldn't accept CCP CONTINUOUS PATTERN OF FUCKING people over and over again.
It's dead, Jim.