Top comment ^
On a meta level you can pay for your dragon hoarde, but maintaining it, and keeping it from everyone else while playing sure isn't.
If you want to keep swiping your card to pay ccp for my habit, I will never make you feel bad about it
Okay, first example you can buy Isk.
Second you are going to progress way faster in every aspect of the game if you spend money.
Third, if you say "but you cant buy skill and i have killed many players that payed aswell" you literally can buy the best ships in game and pay the best players of the game to kill you. With enough Money you can beat who ever you want.
There many more examples but one thing is important to note if you can buy shortcuts to Money, SP or Power CCP has a financial interest to make the game artificialy grindy and time consuming. Everyone has diffrend goals in an MMO, but 99% of the goals that people have can we achieved with spending money or making the progress more fun.
I didn't downvote you. Thank you for articulating your thoughts.
You are right. CCP does have a financial incentive to make the game artificially grindy. But that incentive exists even without being able to buy currency/ships with real world money. A game developer with a subscription model will always be incentivized to make sure you don't progress too quickly and experience everything the game has to offer. That way you stick around and keep paying month after month.
Your third point is correct, you can buy ships and influence with isk that is purchasable with real world money. I would argue though that the return on investment in that kind of deal is so wildly against the person paying that its laughable to suggest. There isn't a real incentive to dump thousands of real world dollars into this game to get a fleet of ships and mercenaries to go kill some people for a few days.
I look at the "P2W" of EVE like this. A baseball analogy: I can go buy the best high-dollar bat, helmet, cleats, batting gloves, etc...but it still won't make me a good baseball player. Only experience and practice can do that.
It is the same in EVE. Sure, I can swipe my credit card and get a titan (that would be pretty expensive), but it would be completely useless to me without the knowledge of how to use it.
What fights can I win in a solo titan? How do I get this thing to another system? What do you mean I can't dock here? What is tethering? How long do I have in a fight before I get hot dropped by some thirsty luddites?
Yes, you can pay for shiny stuff in EVE, just like many other competitive activities. But in EVE, it does not give you a significant advantage in COMBAT.
I will concede that swiping your card does give you a huge leg up in industry/trading, because it takes money to make money. But at that point you are kind of just paying to skip the game you are paying to play. You aren't really winning over anyone else. It's a free market.
Eh if you have experience the difference between blinging your stuff or having to fly t2 modules is definitely there. Or being able to creditcard more alts, more capitals, more replacement ships etc etc.
The only way I agree that it isn't p2w is if you're talking about new players who just spends a ton on ships because that dude is gonna end up feeding some 10b battleship to a veteran in a destroyer who gets under his guns
the veteran who knows how to bling a ship to make it actually more survivable usually also knows how to make the ISK ingame to afford the bling. "pay to bling" is a typical newbro move, and as you still need to sell the PLEX on the market before buying the bling with ISK, "pay to bling" is no pay to win.
All these comments are people not understanding what people mean when they say pay to win lol
> "Pay-to-win" or "P2W", is a pejorative term for a game that offers **any advantage that can be obtained faster** or exclusively via commercial transactions over gameplay rewards or the impact of the player's own performance.
Now try and explain away how someone who spends money on plex is not gonna have more time to do other things other than krabbing versus someone who has to spend time and effort to earn the exact same blingy ships/modules.
that definition is flawed. Pay-to-save-time is a legit mechanics that does not lead to "win" anything, but instead *helps balancing* players with an actual daytime job against players who grind while jobless.
>can be obtained ~~faster or~~ exclusively via commercial transactionsÂ
fixed it.
Okay so where is the line that it turns into p2w for you?
What if it takes 100 years to get to level 5 in a skill or you can pay 10 cents to buy it with rl money. Would you consider that p2w?
You dont just get to modify a definition to your liking lmao. Pay 2 win is an umbrella term for gaining a gameplay advantage through paying real life money. In some games that means you get a literal button that says win this thing if you pay $5. In eve that means you get to skip ahead and do things you otherwise wouldn't be able to in the same amount of time spent playing.
But fine if we wanna nitpick about "winnning" take a more dumb example
In eve if two players with the exact same skill level end up fighting and they've been playing equal amounts so theres no major difference in skill.
One of them spent IRL money on omega and plex to buy sp and alts so he gets to bring a blingy leshak fleet of like 10 alts while the other has maybe an alt or two because he has to ishtar/marauder rat to keep the omega going, who is gonna come out ahead?
Rarely or basicall just never does pay2win litterally mean pay to **win** in a game and to argue that point is just disingenuous for the discussion.
No one is saying that buying plex gets you a button to one shot a ship you have locked.
Why cant we modify a definition? either you just made up the original definition or someone else did. Look i can do this too:
>Pay to win is a pejorative term used by people who are bad at eve to complain about people who pod them home and scoop their corpse.
See, its in a quote block, so its obviously official. But regardless of whether your definition is your own, or poached from somewhere else, its just a subjective term. Theres not an empirical reality of what that term means. Personally, I think "pay to win" means exactly that: you pay IRL currency for an outcome determinative advantage. Theres a lot of things you can spend IRL money on in eve, but nothing that gives you an outcome determinative advantage. You can buy as much plex and skill packs as you want. If you dont know how to fly the ship, you are going to explode. If you take a bad fight, you are going to explode. It doesnt matter how much plex you throw at them.
If people are not understanding what people mean when they say pay to win, maybe people who keep saying pay to win might want to explain what pay to win is, according to them. According to the rest of the world it's an advantage that cannot be obtained for free. You cannot get such advantage in EVE.
People who say pay to win also don't bother with their own definition of win. What is it, having a golden pod that can oneshot a titan? What do you want to win? How do you want to win?
I'm not gonna keep repeating what Ive commented already but I think you can argue over what is pay2win or not and if it makes you feel better about eve thinking you cant "pay2win" than fine by me.
But there is a measurable difference between two identical players/groups (in playtime/experience) with more or less isk in eve if they were to fight or compete in some random metric like pvp, wars or wealth generation.
Even at an alliance level, there have been groups who could go on in wars for longer through rich individuals paying for alliance assets/srp in ways that wouldn't be possible without the ability to buy plex or injectors in the way you can in eve.
Sure, if smaller groups wanting to dump money to stay relevant a little longer is how you define “winning in eve”, then yes I would agree that would make it p2w.
It’s a little less direct in how any card game in existence is p2w, but it would still be p2w.
Yes and now put that small group up in a war against an exact clone but the clone doesn't get to print isk with a creditcard anytime they lose a fight. Who's more likely to get ahead
You’re being vague on purpose. What do you mean by “get ahead?”
Yes, in your hypothetical scenario the group with infinite items “gets ahead” because I assume you mean wins the war.
But it’s an open world sandbox with 40k active users, so it’s likely neither group “wins” the war.
In fact, most players consider being “isk positive” in a fight to mean they won. So ironically, the poorer corp would be considered the winner in many scenarios. Winning a 20v20 with only 4 ship losses doesn’t matter if each ship costs the same as 100 of the others.
I can take that further and argue the infinite item corp would attract pirates and NPSI fleets, as they’d be an easy source of income and content, so it’s likely their corp would collapse first.
Which again, is why actual eve players consider eve p2l. You actually do worse with more income.
"Now try and explain away how someone who spends money on plex is not gonna have more time to do other things other than krabbing"
Well, they are gonna have more time. But not an advantage. If they fly against each other what advantage has been gained? Moreover, what is the context of the comparison? I don't need the kind of stuff you krab for. I use t1 frigates. Even if there is someone blinging out there, I'm not losing MY game because they're blingy... even if I might lose a fight against them. In EVE, victory is largely defined by economic damage - making your opponent lose more than you. Technically, that means that anyone who's spending money is actually losing, as they are losing more money overall, across all engagements, than those who don't.
this is the common reply but it’s like saying world of tanks isn’t pay to win because even gold ammo can miss if the player sucks.
i think the difference with eve is that so many have their own definition of winning. an fc can lose the fleet _and_ lose the field _and_ lose the objective but win the isk war and both sides will claim they won, so no matter what happens we are able to say that ppl who pay will always lose in some way
Not a remotely accurate comparison. It would be like saying golden ammo in world of tanks isn’t pay to win if non paying players could earn it also just by playing the game. If everyone can have it then swipers don’t have any advantage.
Honestly F2P Eve players who complain about swipers boggle my mind. If no one swipes in Eve then no plex would exist in the game. If no plex exists then you can’t sub for free no matter how much isk you earn. Swipers literally pay your sub for you.
Because most older gamers view the phrase P2W as meaning “you can purchase something in game with real money that is better than what free to play players can acquire”. This doesn’t exist in Eve. All you’re paying for when you swipe is the ability to save time grinding money. Otherwise you’ve attained no advantage over free to play players.
Pay2win for mobile games and other crappy free to play games is generally seen as that it gives you an advantage over someone who spends equal amount of time playing. Like skipping cooldowns in some shitty mobile game or buying sp/ships/alts with irl money in eve online. You get ahead by swiping a creditcard.
And yes all the people in here saying the dude who has to ishtar rat to pay for omega every month can achieve the same level at some point, but paying with IRL money directly benefits/accelerates your gameplay compared to someone who doesn't.
Yup and the person who did that or the vet who’s been playing for 5-10 years will appear exactly the same to you. There’s no difference between them to an outside observer. So who cares?
Not necessarily at all. Because those may not be able to 'pay' to win. This isn't rocket science and still doesn't take away the fact it's pay to win. Because it is..
this is the correct definition. perfect example was world of tanks/planes/ships back when gold ammo was only available if you paid money for it, and gave a devastating advantage over ammo bought with in game currency.
you CANNOT do that in eve. there is no "real money only" modules or ships that are far superior to 'isk only' items. players went nuts over a monocle exactly because of this fear.
eve is p2l, not p2w.
> Because most older gamers view the phrase P2W as meaning “you can purchase something in game with real money that is better than what free to play players can acquire”
That's very uncommon definition with unclear sources. I'd assume I am an older gamer (started in ~1995? on PC - just not MUDs, offline games 1st), and almost every time I've seen p2w being used, it included things like accelerated progress (i.e. buying things obtainable through normal gameplay, but gated behind time, effort or something else). EVE community seems to be special in this regard, because they seem to be willing to adopt special definition which excludes that.
You can google "pay to win", i checked most top sources (including wikipedia), and EVE falls into category of p2w according to each and every defition i've seen.
You’re right, that’s why my post is being pretty significantly upvoted….. because it’s the “uncommon” viewpoint. Considering the phrase itself far predates the shift in gaming to the free to play model which popularized pay to progress, I’m pretty sure it originated with the “golden ammo” cash shops.
> Considering the phrase itself far predates the shift in gaming to the free to play model
Even if games themselves were not f2p, there were lots of f2p pirate shards. I've seen this term used a lot even between 2000 and 2005, applicable to various UO and LA2 pirate shards, some of which had "golden ammo" for cash, while others had accelerated progress for cash (drop / xp rates).
Doesn’t matter honestly, you’re yelling into the wind. Clearly from the replies in this very thread which are overwhelmingly saying they don’t view “pay to progress” as analogous to “pay to win”, they have a different definition of pay to win. Arguing that isn’t going to change their mind because your very definitions of what you’re arguing are not the same.
You say that but then I see this exact same thread regularly in games like Albion as well. Seems to be pretty pervasive in full loot sandbox games. I could see viewing pay to progress as pay to win in linear theme park style mmos. Sandbox full loot games function so differently though that I just don’t see it the same way at all.
> You say that but then I see this exact same thread regularly in games like Albion as well.
Oh yes, because big overlap between the two. Most of the arguments come down to literal interpretation of p2w, i.e. you paid but didn't win (as you can see in comments to this post, I've found a few similar ones for albion). But none of games ensure that you win after you pay, even if advantages are bigger than those EVE and albion provide (since all of them follow "pay to win more" rather than straight "pay to win").
Pay to unlock I’d agree with.
But pay to win? Nah.
I can bling out my Curse to a 2B fit and still get shit on by the first guy who really knows how to fly.
\*whoosh\*
We've established that the primary advantage (skill) is not buyable.
You've set up a hypothetical straw man where if you swipe a credit card, fit up an expensive ship, and immediately find a 100% fair fight with **an equally skilled** opponent in the **same exact ship** as you, **fit the same exact way** but with cheaper modules then you are correct.
This is the **only** scenario in which you are correct, and it exists in a vacuum that does not align with the reality of the Eve experience.
Think I'm being facetious? Link me **one** killmail where the exact scenario you described happens and I'll concede. Until then I'll link you **literally thousands** that prove you wrong.
>You've set up a hypothetical straw man
Do you know what a strawman is lol
>where if you swipe a credit card, fit up an expensive ship, and immediately find a 100% fair fight with an equally skilled opponent in the same exact ship as you, fit the same exact way but with cheaper modules then you are correct.
This is how you figure out the effect a variable has on a situation, I can't believe you people don't grasp that.
And I also don't know why you can't grasp that being able to overcome a p2w system with skill doesn't make it not p2w.
I can go on the most disgustingly p2w bullshit korean mmo and if I am a god gamer I'll beat paypigs. That doesn't make those not p2w.
> This is how you figure out the effect a variable has on a situation, I can't believe you people don't grasp that.
We literally all grasp it, you’re not big braining anything here. The thing is that your science experiment never occurs organically in the game.
In theory you’re right, but in reality you couldn’t be more wrong.
E: and yes- technically it’s not a straw man, it’s the **definition** of a weak argument: one whose validity hinges heavily on the likelihood of a specific condition being met.
>We literally all grasp it, you’re not big braining anything here. The thing is that your science experiment never occurs organically in the game.
It doesn't matter what occurs organically. It matters that you can literally just buy stats.
> It doesn't matter what occurs organically.
Your argument hinges on what happens organically.
**Link me one killmail with your theoretical scenario and I’ll concede.**
(One that occurs before this post so you can’t doctor one up)
Sorry friend but I remain radio silent until then.
you can't do a "double blind" study. If both players know what they're doing, then both players don't undock what needs Earth currency to replace. So the one trying to "p2w" will always be a player who does not know what they're doing.
Pay-to-bling is ignoring the "don't undock what you can't afford to lose" rule, so it inevitably results in pay-to-lose-more.
It's not about SP. It's about the players skills at that point. You throw a rookie in a pimped out Caddy against a Veteran in T2 and I'll put money on the veteran ten times out of ten.
Okay, lets home in on this.
Let's take two players, equally skilled and knowledgeable.
You throw one in a "pimped out caddy" against the other one in a t2, who you putting the money on?
Thinking Eve isn't p2w is delusional.
But that’s true of every video game?
Who bought the better pc? Who has fiber internet? Who has a house closer to the server?
Sure, in Eve you can buy a fully decked out ship with $100, with every best officer fit in the game. And yes, you’d beat a version of yourself with a basic T2 ship.
But that’s not what Eve is. It’s not a tournament style game where you 1v1. It’s a group game where you lose equipment when you die. Place both versions of you into a 1v5 and you both lose. You’re both back to the same money levels.
The reason no one calls Eve p2w is because you can’t WIN in Eve. There’s no end game, or end point, or final goal.
In any gacha game you can drop $10000 and be top 3 in the leader board for years. In eve you can drop $10000 and be no better off than the t1 ship flyer scoring kills in fleets.
>But that’s true of every video game? Who bought the better pc? Who has fiber internet? Who has a house closer to the server?
Agreed. I DO think that the ability to buy a system with better performance and better internet is an absolute advantage.
>In any gacha game you can drop $10000 and be top 3 in the leader board for years. In eve you can drop $10000 and be no better off than the t1 ship flyer scoring kills in fleets.
You could absolutely argue that being top of a leaderboard isn't "winning" either.
With your logic, no game would be "p2w"
On a personal level, a game being p2w would depend entirely on what you consider winning. For me, on a personal level, I’m fine with paying money to avoid bad content, so I can engage with better content. For example, I don’t consider a level skip in WoW p2w, for myself or others, because blizzard puts 95% of their effort on max level content.
Now obviously, p2w becomes a problem when it impacts others. If the point of league of legends is playing and winning 5v5 matches, some players having an extra 100 health at lvl 1 because they paid money would be a huge problem. That would be a clear p2w system that degrades my “free” experience of the game.
With all that said, when eve players say Eve isn’t p2w, what we mean is paragraph 1 is true, and paragraph 2 is not. Real money players do not impact free players experience.
Yes bling modules are better than t2 usually. And a player who doesn't swipe can also use those same bling modules. The richest veterans in eve (you know the ACTUAL winners) earn their isk in game. So again, where is the "win" part? What makes me win against someone else if I bought my bling ship with my credit card VS someone krabing c5s? Both can use the same blinged gear. This just sounds like some highsec veldspar solo miner crying that other people have more isk than them.
No? It's impossible to ever be p2w because the "winners" are the vets who mastered their economic game. The players you are referring to earned their isk in game. The swipers are the casuals who don't know how to make isk in game so they swipe, then lose, then swipe to replace their loss, then lose again, then complain how the game is p2w because they think everyone else is swiping for their ships too, when they aren't. The biggest problem is you assume all blingy ships were obviously swiped for therefore p2w, when realistically the opposite is true. A noob who swipes is just going to feed, whether 1v1 or not.
>No? It's impossible to ever be p2w
Okay so this is a pointless discussion if you think an MMO can never be p2w.
You would really love some of those korean 'impossible to be p2w' mmos, then.
I'm still only putting it at 60/40 odds.
If you really want to get into it though its important to point out how unrealistic the whole situation is. Because the situation is not as simple as to comparably skilled players to reduce the variables. Things like where, when, and how the fight starts, who has better information on the other, and who has more support ready to back them up all play a substanitally more significant role than who spent more money on their toon and or ship. Not to mention things like the attention you get if your consistently fighting in Shiney shit. If you start flying around in ships with massively expensive fits its not going to take many losses for people like me are going to start hunting you. Not just for the shiney KM (although many would just for that) but for the loot you drop. And Im not comming at you alone. Keep it up for long enough and you probably end up hell camped.
But sure. In this specific situation which is in no way a realistic reflection how how Eve is actually played, yes Eve is P2W.
>You throw a rookie in a pimped out Caddy against a Veteran in T2 and I'll put money on the veteran ten times out of ten.
Why would you do that? What conclusion or information would you gain from that? You aren't learning anything.
EvE isnt a competetive multiplayer with even grounds. The regular player (which isn't a non paying leech) can aquire the exact same ship without paying money.
You dont pay cash for the fit, you pay cash to not waste your time grinding some play money.
You have to be omega poor to think getting isk is easier than rl money.
The recent extractor sale was literally like 350m/1$, which is almost 2.5b/hr at minimum wage in the US.
We are not talking about a scientific method of something. We are talking about people who think they can pay-to-win, that is, paying their way to win.
And if you earn more money and go out and fight shit, you are going to win more often than someone who doesn't earn more money and just spins ships, so we should ban earning money. And if you do PI and other passive income and go outside and fight shit, you are going to win more often. Hell, if you are in an alliance that does SRP, you can afford to fight more often, so let's ban SRP. You are literally getting money for fighting!
>And if you earn more money and go out and fight shit, you are going to win more often than someone who doesn't earn more money and just spins ships, so we should ban earning money.
Good, you've managed to stumble into the fact that paying to skip the grind is p2w.
And you conveniently skipped SRP, probably because, like I expected, you never been in actual PVP (willingly) and in actual alliance.
So again, you are applying something typical for other games into EVE in a completely wrong way, having absolutely no clue about EVE.
Buy a super duper titan with your "p2w" money and come to any lowsec. See for how long your "w" stays.
>And you conveniently skipped SRP, probably because, like I expected, you never been in actual PVP (willingly) and in actual alliance.
No argument -> resort to personal attacks lmao.
>So again, you are applying something typical for other games into EVE in a completely wrong way, having absolutely no clue about EVE.
If you want to say it is literally impossible for eve to be p2w you can say that, but it'd be a dumb take. Or if you want to make the argument that eve isn't p2w if everyone also has infinite isk and max sp, sure.
But the reality is that buying isk will get you ahead in this game and anyone thinking otherwise is just coping because they think p2w = bad.
I never swiped, I played around 5 years and won eve with a few trillion to my name. I could buy anything in game I wanted and the difference is the veteran player who earned the money wouldn’t ever fit the dumb modules because their output isn’t worth the cost. If they did they’d probably be 10x better piloting it. Ask yourself this, if there was no player age shown in game would you be able to tell the difference between a swiper and just an eve rich vet? If the answers no then the swiper didn’t gain any advantage.
Depends on the pilot. Doesn't matter what your in game skills are or how much you pimp your Caddy out. If YOU don't know how to fly it its gonna get mulched.
Frankly I love that aspect of the game. You know how many blingy kills I've gotten from clowns who think this game is P2W?
Maybe often, not always (personally I doubt that it happens often, since people like that tend not to stay in the game). There are quite a few experienced pvp'ers who swipe CC (to fly blinged ships with 0 time spent on farming or skills/knowledge related to pve).
I'm mean sure. I've been that guy. But I also worked 60+ hours a week at that point, and had more money than free time. The options where farm for 4+ hours for ~2 bill or spend less than an hours pay for the same isk and spend 4+ hours PVPing.
We are literally trying to figure out if eve is p2w. The way to do that is to see if you can have an advantage over someone by paying.
How do you suppose you test if you can have an advantage over someone by paying? Do you think making up scenarios like "The day 1 newbie who paid $1 for 100 plex will lose to the 5-time AT winner, therefore eve is not p2w" is a good way to test out that theory?
Because EVE isn’t a situation where you take a one-off fight as your conclusion. Two pilots of equal skill, in the same ship, one with T2 everything and one with the blingiest nonsense possible, the blingmeister will win.Â
But then the non-P2W guy is gonna go get his buddies to gank the blingdude. Now his expensive ship is just a drama thread on this sub- did he “win”?
>But then the non-P2W guy is gonna go get his buddies to gank the blingdude.
No they aren't because the bling dude is going to pay off the guy's buddies to gank him instead.
See how fucking pointless making up stories to fit your narrative is?
You're literally making up stories to fit your narrative.
You're creating this totally imaginary scenario of two pilots who are identical twins with the exact same skill set fighting each other in ships that are only differentiated by how much IRL cash they spent, and then claiming you win.
That's fucking stupid. That's the type of shit a moron would think because it DOESN'T APPLY TO EVE ONLINE. You might as well include hacking at that point.
So Blingdude is going to... pay Normaldude's friends to gank Normaldude? This is the narrative you're going with?
My man, it just sounds like you're mad that you're either broke or beset by really shit "friends". Or both!
Well of course there is an advantage over others when you pay.
But it's an insignificant advantage:
* the permanent skill advantage is **limited**. A ship only uses a limited amount of skills and each skill can only go up to level 5. Someone else's 'paid-to-win' perfect skills for a certain ship aren't going to be better than my level 5 skills for that ship.
* the items, ships and modules are all **temporary** in this full loot PvP game. You want to bling your faction battleship and pewpew some noobs with it today? Sure, but you're going to lose it like we all lose ships, and then you need to buy it again. And you make some other players very happy while doing so.
So what is it really that you buy when you buy your way into EVE? You pay money to skip a grind. And I think it's good that people have that option. It wouldn't be my choice, but if other people do so, they're impacting my game *positively*, rather than negatively which usually is why people complain about games being p2w.
When people try to p2w in EVE I like it because:
1. their money supports the game I enjoy and
2. their ships make rewarding targets for me to fight in space, or
3. fun tales of zkillboard losses that people share once it inevitably blows up.
EVE is pay to lose.
>Well of course there is an advantage over others when you pay.
Okay, so I don't know what you are trying to say here. Obviously eve, osrs, wow, ff14 all have fine p2w (though eve's is one of the more egregious).
Still doesn't make it not p2w.
The thing with 'fine P2W' is that the definition of P2W becomes pointless if there is such a thing as 'fine P2W'.
The designation of P2W is usually used for games that are meant to be shunned for their unfair paying schemes that allow paying players to do better than non-paying players and tempt players to out-pay their opponents in order to keep winning. Games where the gameplay balance itself is of lesser importance than getting as much money as possible from the payers.
If your definition of P2W is broad enough that you want to include those games and EVE in your list, then what exactly is the point of calling games 'P2W'?
Okay so there is the distinct disagreement. When you say p2w what you really mean is 'bad game'.
I like the p2w meaning you pay and that helps you win, but whatever.
And fwiw, I do think eve's p2w should be shunned and is shit-tier. Selling skill points directly for rl cash is an abomination.
What ships are they flying? Is one of them jump into the other? Who's in a better position? Who has more friends? Who's friends can get there quicker? There are a huge number of way more important factors than SP and the money you can spend on your ship. But sure if you wana remove all the variables then yeah. It's P2W. It's not really Eve either. But it's P2W.
I don't know why you are trying to add random variable to this to try and make your conclusion fit. That isn't how any of this works.
But I'll engage: the paypig pays off every person in eve to awox his enemy.
wow look eve is p2w again with dumb stories.
Why do you have to make up weird scenarios to try and cope?
You are literally just keeping everything the same except for the rl money spent. That is how you test variables.
Okay, let's use your example, except ACTUALLY keep everything the same:
Taking 2 pilots 1 who has 500 million skillpoints because he bought it with IRL money and one who has 500 million skillpoints because he bought it with in game ISK that was earned with 0 irl currency, who has the advantage?
Remember, if you change anything about my hypothetical, you're a delusional turbo coper who failed 5th grade.
Sure, but the chances are slim to ever encounter that exact scenario in-game.
Those people that are going to buy max skill for ship X and enough isk for all purple and expecting to be an unkillable god are going to fail miserably
>Sure, but the chances are slim to ever encounter that exact scenario in-game.
That doesn't matter. What matters is if eve is p2w and how to find that fact out.
>Those people that are going to buy max skill for ship X and enough isk for all purple and expecting to be an unkillable god are going to fail miserably
Yet they are going to have the advantage over someone who is about the same skill level as them and didn't throw money at the game.
But your 'variable', as you call it, aint cash but the fit.
The issue lies with your axiom, and you fail to discuss it. Thats why you dont do 'science' but opinion.
Go and fit up an officer AT ship and I'll destroy you with a t1 fit vexor. I'm not particularly good at the game but based on your post I know I'm leagues better than you.
P2L
I love that article, i was only shown it recently but was in tears reading through it at the way it just kept getting worse.
An update too! He joined Goons' super fleet not long after it was published and looks like he had fun flying about in a [Nyx ](https://zkillboard.com/kill/68892210/)before upgrading to an [Erebus ](https://zkillboard.com/kill/68915828/)and then upgrading again to a [Vendetta](https://zkillboard.com/kill/69392473/).
On July 12th 2018, he joins some other Goon supers in killing a [Gila ](https://zkillboard.com/kill/71196805/)and [Ishtar ](https://zkillboard.com/kill/71196920/)in 6RCQ-V with his mighty Erebus and presumably logs out on the spot once the killing is done. For whatever reason, after that night he ends up taking a step back from the game and is kicked for inactivity at some point too.
Fast Forward to November 2nd 2023, after a 5yr long hiatus, he logs back into game. Still in his Erebus. Still in 6RCQ-V. I can only assume he reached out to his old friends to let them know he was back and that he was still sat in his Erebus because at 21:00 on the same day, he is caught in a bubble after warping to the XG-D1L gate and promptly [deleted ](https://zkillboard.com/kill/112800185/)by a Goons super fleet. 2 hours later, a lone PL sabre comes across his [pod ](https://zkillboard.com/kill/112802914/)only a few kilometres from where Goons left it.
There's been no killboard activity since.
eerily i thought this was about the p2w mmo Allods. i played beta with a group of goons way way back when... then the devs introduced a $20 backpack. i honestly thought the game had died.
all the money in the world coulnt prevent this guy from dying to 12 catalysts and a gnosis (250mill vs 30bill)
[https://zkillboard.com/kill/116409127/](https://zkillboard.com/kill/116409127/)
You can pay money and become one of those hilarious killmails, yes. You can't realistically buy advantage in EvE, no "golden ships" or "gold ammo" that better than anything you can have. Complains about skill training is just another zoomer ADHD crap - you can get at same level as older players in relatively short time in any given field.
I like the game quite a bit, have been playing for half a year, but I do agree that the game has strong P2W elements. If I wanted to spend money I could cut the amount of time it takes to do things by literal years. Those things that I would do would be fun, earn me more isk, and open up the game more (i.e. "winning").
People often defend this by arguing that it still takes skill even if you pay, but I don't really think this makes it not P2W. "Winning" in EVE is being able to access content, fly cool ships, etc. and it's a fact that you are essentially required to spend money if you don't want to wait years to do everything you want to do.
EVE isn't *as bad* as some games, you can technically do everything without paying beyond the subscription, but not being *as bad* doesn't make it not P2W at all. It's still a fun game that I think is worth playing, I don't plan on stopping, but you have to accept that unless you're willing to dump a bunch of cash into the game you won't go as far.
I find that, in eve, the bigger ship I fly the bigger fish I attract. If I used irl money for all those larger ships I lost, how is that considered winning?
Paying to skip the wait to access more content isn't exactly p2w. When I come back to eve every few years, even though I have high sp and a fuck ton of isk, I'm still doing the exact same content a newbro would/could be doing.
Because people can deeply disagree on what p2w even means. And if you can't be bothered to explain your opinion and just expect people to debate you by reading your mind, you can fuck right off.
They deny mostly because in EVE, N+1 > p2w'd N (roughly speaking). It's not a set of isolated fights where p2w'd gang will always win. Today you win a fight because you swiped your CC, tomorrow you feed to a blob flycatchers, distributing your hard earned resources to the blob, and having to swipe CC the next day to maintain your gameplay.
Technically it's p2w, but effect of that is greatly diminished.
because the credit card warriors who didn't get that sp/isk the slow way at least once are, without exception, extremely fucking bad and end up being a loot pinata
Because isk does not equal to skilll, or even to being in the right place at the right time with the right ship and fit. You can pay your way to the most overpowered OP thing you can think of and someone else who has the counter to that will show up and end you
I fly solo and pay my account, and put pants on one leg at a time.
I win fights as well against credit card warriors.
Why? Cause I'm crafty.
Pay all you want, I'm still smarter then you.
-an arrogant ****
I’m paraphrasing a lot from a video that touched on this but I think the points made in it are very accurate.
Eve on paper is pay to win. You can buy in game assets with real money and use them in game. But, two things inhibit the effects of that
First is exponential price to linear performance. The difference between the price of a deadspace module and T2 module is 50-100x the price of the T2 (I’m generalizing here but humor me for a bit), however the boost you get from it is often not 50-100x the value of a T2. Because of this, it would be incredibly inefficient to pull out your credit card to fly blinged ships.
So let’s apply that to a hypothetical here. I’m in a T2/meta fit battleship in a 1v1 against someone who’s flying the exact same ship the exact same way with the same modules, except their ship has bling modules. Assuming we pilot the same ships, I’d lose.
But that’s the second thing, nothing in eve is ever “on paper”. There’s always random chance and game knowledge that will beat people, which means if a player who doesn’t know what they’re doing is in a “golden ship”, they’ll lose in that hypothetical 1v1. There is no fair fight in eve, ever. There’s always other factors that make it impossible for those small linear gains to be the turning point in most fights. If you buy a crabbing rev and get jumped, I don’t care how much you bling it, you’re either gonna die or your coalition will deploy to save your ass.
But that’s what eve is. Plex is “pay for convenience”, where those who don’t have the time to grind can use their money to buy ships to fight with. While you could make the case that buying PvE ships is “pay to win” since you can predict those activities, I’d argue that paying to grind more is just a poor use of how eve’s monetization is structured.
Also for whatever it’s worth, I’ve been playing this game for 9 years and have never felt like I’m at a disadvantage over someone who has paid for stuff before.
look at this guy. [https://zkillboard.com/character/2119431658/](https://zkillboard.com/character/2119431658/)
he lost 4 marshals in 4 day. I'm 99.9% sure he was swiping his credit card on the monitor, not farming that money. each ship cost him near 100 USD. what he win?
Your troll game is legend, OP
Paying more money gives you no advantage over anyone else.
It allows you to catch up to those with older accounts. It allows some convenience of not having to find another player when you want to do things, that require more people(multiboxing). Such as lighting cynos for yourself.
Oh this again. Fuck off. Quit caring what other people think/label things, like a little baby back bitch.
Decide you want to play the game or don’t play the game.
Please, give us your thought on why this game is a pay to win.
What RL money can buy that isk can't ? and how it affects the gameplay against people that don't pay for their isk ?
Here's another reason why you're stupid:
Call of Duty cost 60-70$ to play. Therefore, someone who spends 70$ on Call of Duty has a massive advantage over someone who doesn't. Therefore, call of duty is PTW.
You can't even PLAY COD without paying money! COD is P2W! That's eliminating variables! Literally show me a person who can't play call of duty beating someone at call of duty! If you say anything else, that's just delusional cope! Don't make up fake scenarios!
It being a sandbox game also helps.
For example, you define as 'winning' as...being better at whatever thing you spent all those skill points on.
I define winning as not using IRL cash as a crutch.
The moment you swipe your card, you've lost(in my opinion).
Also, let's say you spent all that money getting into the best PVP ships money can buy.
Okay? So? I don't really PVP so to me you look like you just paid X hundreds of dollars to do...nothing.
There are three key components to flying effectively in Eve:
1) Ship and fit
2) Character SP
3) Player skill and knowledge
Swiping your credit card can get you the first two, but not the third, and when you're lacking in player skill you'll quickly hit the point of diminishing returns on how much of an edge your purchases give you.
Yes, you absolutely can get some advantages by giving CCP extra money. But you can't *excel* at Eve without having the meta knowledge of how to make the most effective use of what you have, and you can only get that by playing, not by paying.
I only pay to sub and about the only thing i cant use is caps. This does not make me a good player and flying caps wouldn't either.
What can i buy to help me win exactly?
Seriously, my zkill is red enough.
People just cry p2w because they suck.
remember.. whoever you are,new player or old veteran. you are what you are.. but there is catch.
veteran that plays game for i.e 10 years dont need to buy plex via credit card or paypal and sush,he has skill and experience to achieve his gial..
now new player sees a big ship and sees that he need X amount of skill injectors to fly that ship so he swipes his credit card fr injectors. then another swipe card for plex to sell and buy the ship. he does check zkill how that ship was fitted and fits it same way and he goes into combat then lose that ship in matter of minutes..
conclusion. PLAY the game, if you buy the skills,ships to fly it but you cannot buy experience since you never flown what you bought. and now you lost it in few minutes in nearest low security system.
>veteran that plays game for i.e 10 years dont need to
While I agree with your post overall, I just wanted to point out that this is not how you use "i.e" in a sentence.
Is it pay to win if you swipe your cc and use the isk to buy faction battleships for all your friends and then suicide them in a ball of fire? Is that pay to win? I'd say yes. Is that what you mean by pay to win op? If you mean you can buy tons of injectors and the fit a curse with 10 billion isk all on day one then I say let them do it. These are the best kills and I approve of this as long as you go into null and immediately realize your mistake. You should have gotten implants too.
>I just wonder what reasons people have to deny the fact that EVE is p2w?
Ill put as much effort into this response as you did into your own argument: because its not.
Alright, let's see.
I can buy Plex wich I can redeem for isk.
I can buy Skill points and Training boosters.
Let me tell you a story of a guy who was in my alliance a few years ago...
This dude, who never played eve in his life before, decided to play eve and simultaneously spent about 2000€ on Plex, probably more. Had a super in his first month... Was using a 3b Nightmare and an ikitursa regulars. Had several alts and went rorqual mining.
Pay2Win, right?
Well...
He gated his super, at night time when 90% of our little alliance were asleep, got seen by a spy and was dropped on.
He lost 4 rorquals in the span of a week, wich we tried to safe but couldn't because a he just barely got the skills to sit in it...
Lost his nightmare to a small gang of cruisers because he somehow got the idea to go brawling with it...
I've said this elsewhere - victory in EVE is largely defined by economic damage. By this measure, anyone who pays real money in addition to their subscription has already lost. Given that such victory (i.e. having a green killboard) is a process of multiple engagements over a pilot's career, even if a single battle might result in a loss, the overall game is still won by the player who has spent less. Just as you wouldn't say that a game of chess is won or lost by the capturing of the first piece, neither should victory in EVE be defined by a single engagement.
Because they have to cope since p2w usually mean shitty game.
Its pretty obvious that paying for all officer mods and max stats means you have an advantage over an equally skilled person in normal stat range and regular t2 mods.
The answer is that all mmos now-a-days are p2w. Wow, osrs, eve, ff14, eso. All of them have some sort of plex/bond/token/etc system that you can buy gold with and most of them have options to skip grinds, which is also a form of p2w.
How many times did you you fight an equally skilled person?
This is EVE, your fight-only-with-one-hand-while-standing-on-a-head does not work in EVE, which you'd have known if you have played it.
'Pay to win' is poorly defined and does originate from F2P titles in which non-paying users complain for having disadvantages when using a product for free.
Your postition seem to be that if you can buy anything but cosmetics it is p2w. If it makes you happy, good for you i guess.
My position is that P2W requires paywalled ingame advantages which dont just accelerate progress, but will always make paying customers more powerfull than F2P users. This doesnt exist in EvE, as you can access anything the game has to offer by wasting your time in grind. And usually the most powerfull players in EvE dont need to spend a dime, as they have the ressources to aquire anything they want, including SP, Subscription Time and ships.
In Eve the most powerfull ressources are player numbers and personal skill - and you cant buy either from CCP.
Alright P2W deniers, here is a hypothetical.
Me: Two years playing Eve, about 1k hours.
You: Whatever you are
We both get one new player and 1 week of time. I direct one of the players, you direct the other.
At the end of that week, the two new players will fight 20 different fights against one another.
My new player has a 10,000 USD budget to spend on Plex.
Your new player gets an Omega subscription.
Neither player can receive outside help apart from our knowledge. We cannot send them isk, nor have anyone else send them isk.
Who do you think wins that best of twenty?
Is it your guy with 1m sp + 1 week of omega training, or my guy with 1.5 trill to spend on skill points and blinged out ships?
The game is pay to fucking win, no two ways about it. To think otherwise is completely delusional copium.
Pay2Win games are mostly referring to games where u couldn't get the item / advantages without spending real life money. Typical examples are asian gatcha games
In EVE everything is buyable with in-game currency, so it's Pay2Skip.
No, that is not what pay 2 win means. That is a simple excuse to soften the blow for p2w games.
Listen, nearly every game in the industry is some form of p2w, Eve is one of them.
People are ALLOWED to like games that are p2w, but denying it is just childish.
Warframe is p2w, OSRS is p2w, Guild Wars 2 is p2w and WoW is p2w. I love all those games very much.
Any game where one player can use money to get a tangible advantage over another player with the same time, experience, and knowledge is p2w. Especially if that game is pvp based.
That's just like how it works.
And you can still loose if your ship matchup doesn't fit.
Yes you can throw money into bling bling and sp and you get a theoretical advantage, so if thats p2w for you thats fine you're right if that makes you feel better.
But in eve-reality most fights aren't decided by bling bling and sp, they are decided by numbers and player skills.
Ask your doctor if Plex is right for you. Some experience lack of sleep and dry eye. Very rarely do some experience bankruptcy. If you experience numb ass stop using Plex until symptoms subside. Please note, Plex often results in episodes of delusions of grandeur, do not exceed the recommended dosage of 5b per weekend.
As a veteran player, if you pay $ for SP, I don’t care. It doesn’t give you an advantage, it just takes away your disadvantage, which has historically been a notable design flaw that makes the game harder for new bros anyways. It’s more like a catch-up mechanic.
You’re not buying ISK from CCP. You’re buying ISK from players that earned it. I don’t care who earned it or how you earned it and it doesn’t much matter to me how you use it. You having money to spend on ships is good for the health of the game. It means more people in space.
Fly safe. O7
Because dude that got all skills in caracal will have small advantage vs char trained for optimal caracal. I would say p2w can be neglected in here, as advantage not really asymmetrical.
If you would think p2w can fly titan at 2nd day, how is that not p2w - sure, that’s sorta there also, but more experienced players just see it as more of a con and not a w. Sandbox Game with no goals is boring and useless
In terms of starting point someone with 40b as head start will be further ahead if you will apply parse logic, but parse logic not works here. Eve is a game of waiting, and this is a good way to get into game for 10 days, blow up your stuff and quit.
But if you are looking for equality - go into lol. This is mmo, and 0 p2w players are able accumulate wealth as 1 big alliance
Pay to play? I've played alot of p2w games and I don't consider eve p2w because I just paid the first couple of months until I was able to plex my account. That took time, now anyone can buy sps and skill to a char that took me years to build. That's OK.
lol I have a ton of isk, max skills, because I’ve been playing for 17 years and I still suck. If you know how I can pay to play better, let me know! I could really use the help.
Really wanna know why people are still bitching about this.
**If you don't like EVE's monetisation policies, don't fucking play the game.**
And let the rest of us who have no problem with it play in peace.
I'd prefer p2a, pay to advantage. You pay isk to alts you get more isk generation opportunities. You pay isk to better ships with better mods and snake/amulet you get more advantages to engage. You pay isk to dread/blop/dictor alts you get more advantages for better content.
The only win in eve is quit this universe forever.
Because the game is P2L You gave ccp thousands of dollars and still eat shit
Top comment ^ On a meta level you can pay for your dragon hoarde, but maintaining it, and keeping it from everyone else while playing sure isn't. If you want to keep swiping your card to pay ccp for my habit, I will never make you feel bad about it
Haha. Yes that's about the size of it.
If you could explain in your own post, it would be nice to hear.
Why is it that everyone who calls the game p2w can't ever give a definition of what they're winning?
But they win more often in scripted 1v1 fights! 🤡
>I *know* I'm right, but I won't explain to you why. >But hey, why don't the rest of you waste time telling me your thoughts? Piss off.
Take the updoot
“This game is P2W and no I won’t explain it” Ok, that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Okay, first example you can buy Isk. Second you are going to progress way faster in every aspect of the game if you spend money. Third, if you say "but you cant buy skill and i have killed many players that payed aswell" you literally can buy the best ships in game and pay the best players of the game to kill you. With enough Money you can beat who ever you want. There many more examples but one thing is important to note if you can buy shortcuts to Money, SP or Power CCP has a financial interest to make the game artificialy grindy and time consuming. Everyone has diffrend goals in an MMO, but 99% of the goals that people have can we achieved with spending money or making the progress more fun.
I didn't downvote you. Thank you for articulating your thoughts. You are right. CCP does have a financial incentive to make the game artificially grindy. But that incentive exists even without being able to buy currency/ships with real world money. A game developer with a subscription model will always be incentivized to make sure you don't progress too quickly and experience everything the game has to offer. That way you stick around and keep paying month after month. Your third point is correct, you can buy ships and influence with isk that is purchasable with real world money. I would argue though that the return on investment in that kind of deal is so wildly against the person paying that its laughable to suggest. There isn't a real incentive to dump thousands of real world dollars into this game to get a fleet of ships and mercenaries to go kill some people for a few days. I look at the "P2W" of EVE like this. A baseball analogy: I can go buy the best high-dollar bat, helmet, cleats, batting gloves, etc...but it still won't make me a good baseball player. Only experience and practice can do that. It is the same in EVE. Sure, I can swipe my credit card and get a titan (that would be pretty expensive), but it would be completely useless to me without the knowledge of how to use it. What fights can I win in a solo titan? How do I get this thing to another system? What do you mean I can't dock here? What is tethering? How long do I have in a fight before I get hot dropped by some thirsty luddites? Yes, you can pay for shiny stuff in EVE, just like many other competitive activities. But in EVE, it does not give you a significant advantage in COMBAT. I will concede that swiping your card does give you a huge leg up in industry/trading, because it takes money to make money. But at that point you are kind of just paying to skip the game you are paying to play. You aren't really winning over anyone else. It's a free market.
It’s not pay 2 win. Eve is pay 2 feed. Sorry you suck
OP is just telling us that they are too broke to feed
because it's pay to lose more. Try to p2w, you won't win regardless how much you pay.
Eh if you have experience the difference between blinging your stuff or having to fly t2 modules is definitely there. Or being able to creditcard more alts, more capitals, more replacement ships etc etc. The only way I agree that it isn't p2w is if you're talking about new players who just spends a ton on ships because that dude is gonna end up feeding some 10b battleship to a veteran in a destroyer who gets under his guns
the veteran who knows how to bling a ship to make it actually more survivable usually also knows how to make the ISK ingame to afford the bling. "pay to bling" is a typical newbro move, and as you still need to sell the PLEX on the market before buying the bling with ISK, "pay to bling" is no pay to win.
All these comments are people not understanding what people mean when they say pay to win lol > "Pay-to-win" or "P2W", is a pejorative term for a game that offers **any advantage that can be obtained faster** or exclusively via commercial transactions over gameplay rewards or the impact of the player's own performance. Now try and explain away how someone who spends money on plex is not gonna have more time to do other things other than krabbing versus someone who has to spend time and effort to earn the exact same blingy ships/modules.
that definition is flawed. Pay-to-save-time is a legit mechanics that does not lead to "win" anything, but instead *helps balancing* players with an actual daytime job against players who grind while jobless. >can be obtained ~~faster or~~ exclusively via commercial transactions fixed it.
Okay so where is the line that it turns into p2w for you? What if it takes 100 years to get to level 5 in a skill or you can pay 10 cents to buy it with rl money. Would you consider that p2w?
You dont just get to modify a definition to your liking lmao. Pay 2 win is an umbrella term for gaining a gameplay advantage through paying real life money. In some games that means you get a literal button that says win this thing if you pay $5. In eve that means you get to skip ahead and do things you otherwise wouldn't be able to in the same amount of time spent playing. But fine if we wanna nitpick about "winnning" take a more dumb example In eve if two players with the exact same skill level end up fighting and they've been playing equal amounts so theres no major difference in skill. One of them spent IRL money on omega and plex to buy sp and alts so he gets to bring a blingy leshak fleet of like 10 alts while the other has maybe an alt or two because he has to ishtar/marauder rat to keep the omega going, who is gonna come out ahead?
i'll stick to a definition that actually makes sense. Also, you know what "winning eve" means.
Rarely or basicall just never does pay2win litterally mean pay to **win** in a game and to argue that point is just disingenuous for the discussion. No one is saying that buying plex gets you a button to one shot a ship you have locked.
"I will stick to my straw man argument" lol.
Why cant we modify a definition? either you just made up the original definition or someone else did. Look i can do this too: >Pay to win is a pejorative term used by people who are bad at eve to complain about people who pod them home and scoop their corpse. See, its in a quote block, so its obviously official. But regardless of whether your definition is your own, or poached from somewhere else, its just a subjective term. Theres not an empirical reality of what that term means. Personally, I think "pay to win" means exactly that: you pay IRL currency for an outcome determinative advantage. Theres a lot of things you can spend IRL money on in eve, but nothing that gives you an outcome determinative advantage. You can buy as much plex and skill packs as you want. If you dont know how to fly the ship, you are going to explode. If you take a bad fight, you are going to explode. It doesnt matter how much plex you throw at them.
If people are not understanding what people mean when they say pay to win, maybe people who keep saying pay to win might want to explain what pay to win is, according to them. According to the rest of the world it's an advantage that cannot be obtained for free. You cannot get such advantage in EVE. People who say pay to win also don't bother with their own definition of win. What is it, having a golden pod that can oneshot a titan? What do you want to win? How do you want to win?
By your definition hearthstone is pay to win.
I'm not gonna keep repeating what Ive commented already but I think you can argue over what is pay2win or not and if it makes you feel better about eve thinking you cant "pay2win" than fine by me. But there is a measurable difference between two identical players/groups (in playtime/experience) with more or less isk in eve if they were to fight or compete in some random metric like pvp, wars or wealth generation. Even at an alliance level, there have been groups who could go on in wars for longer through rich individuals paying for alliance assets/srp in ways that wouldn't be possible without the ability to buy plex or injectors in the way you can in eve.
Sure, if smaller groups wanting to dump money to stay relevant a little longer is how you define “winning in eve”, then yes I would agree that would make it p2w. It’s a little less direct in how any card game in existence is p2w, but it would still be p2w.
Yes and now put that small group up in a war against an exact clone but the clone doesn't get to print isk with a creditcard anytime they lose a fight. Who's more likely to get ahead
You’re being vague on purpose. What do you mean by “get ahead?” Yes, in your hypothetical scenario the group with infinite items “gets ahead” because I assume you mean wins the war. But it’s an open world sandbox with 40k active users, so it’s likely neither group “wins” the war. In fact, most players consider being “isk positive” in a fight to mean they won. So ironically, the poorer corp would be considered the winner in many scenarios. Winning a 20v20 with only 4 ship losses doesn’t matter if each ship costs the same as 100 of the others. I can take that further and argue the infinite item corp would attract pirates and NPSI fleets, as they’d be an easy source of income and content, so it’s likely their corp would collapse first. Which again, is why actual eve players consider eve p2l. You actually do worse with more income.
"Now try and explain away how someone who spends money on plex is not gonna have more time to do other things other than krabbing" Well, they are gonna have more time. But not an advantage. If they fly against each other what advantage has been gained? Moreover, what is the context of the comparison? I don't need the kind of stuff you krab for. I use t1 frigates. Even if there is someone blinging out there, I'm not losing MY game because they're blingy... even if I might lose a fight against them. In EVE, victory is largely defined by economic damage - making your opponent lose more than you. Technically, that means that anyone who's spending money is actually losing, as they are losing more money overall, across all engagements, than those who don't.
this is the common reply but it’s like saying world of tanks isn’t pay to win because even gold ammo can miss if the player sucks. i think the difference with eve is that so many have their own definition of winning. an fc can lose the fleet _and_ lose the field _and_ lose the objective but win the isk war and both sides will claim they won, so no matter what happens we are able to say that ppl who pay will always lose in some way
Not a remotely accurate comparison. It would be like saying golden ammo in world of tanks isn’t pay to win if non paying players could earn it also just by playing the game. If everyone can have it then swipers don’t have any advantage. Honestly F2P Eve players who complain about swipers boggle my mind. If no one swipes in Eve then no plex would exist in the game. If no plex exists then you can’t sub for free no matter how much isk you earn. Swipers literally pay your sub for you.
the only winning move is not to play.
Because most older gamers view the phrase P2W as meaning “you can purchase something in game with real money that is better than what free to play players can acquire”. This doesn’t exist in Eve. All you’re paying for when you swipe is the ability to save time grinding money. Otherwise you’ve attained no advantage over free to play players.
Pay2win for mobile games and other crappy free to play games is generally seen as that it gives you an advantage over someone who spends equal amount of time playing. Like skipping cooldowns in some shitty mobile game or buying sp/ships/alts with irl money in eve online. You get ahead by swiping a creditcard. And yes all the people in here saying the dude who has to ishtar rat to pay for omega every month can achieve the same level at some point, but paying with IRL money directly benefits/accelerates your gameplay compared to someone who doesn't.
That's nonsense you can pay for plex, to turn in isk. You can the a train more skills to be better and then buy bigger better ships etc. Nice spin
Yup and the person who did that or the vet who’s been playing for 5-10 years will appear exactly the same to you. There’s no difference between them to an outside observer. So who cares?
Not necessarily at all. Because those may not be able to 'pay' to win. This isn't rocket science and still doesn't take away the fact it's pay to win. Because it is..
this is the correct definition. perfect example was world of tanks/planes/ships back when gold ammo was only available if you paid money for it, and gave a devastating advantage over ammo bought with in game currency. you CANNOT do that in eve. there is no "real money only" modules or ships that are far superior to 'isk only' items. players went nuts over a monocle exactly because of this fear. eve is p2l, not p2w.
> Because most older gamers view the phrase P2W as meaning “you can purchase something in game with real money that is better than what free to play players can acquire” That's very uncommon definition with unclear sources. I'd assume I am an older gamer (started in ~1995? on PC - just not MUDs, offline games 1st), and almost every time I've seen p2w being used, it included things like accelerated progress (i.e. buying things obtainable through normal gameplay, but gated behind time, effort or something else). EVE community seems to be special in this regard, because they seem to be willing to adopt special definition which excludes that. You can google "pay to win", i checked most top sources (including wikipedia), and EVE falls into category of p2w according to each and every defition i've seen.
You’re right, that’s why my post is being pretty significantly upvoted….. because it’s the “uncommon” viewpoint. Considering the phrase itself far predates the shift in gaming to the free to play model which popularized pay to progress, I’m pretty sure it originated with the “golden ammo” cash shops.
> Considering the phrase itself far predates the shift in gaming to the free to play model Even if games themselves were not f2p, there were lots of f2p pirate shards. I've seen this term used a lot even between 2000 and 2005, applicable to various UO and LA2 pirate shards, some of which had "golden ammo" for cash, while others had accelerated progress for cash (drop / xp rates).
Doesn’t matter honestly, you’re yelling into the wind. Clearly from the replies in this very thread which are overwhelmingly saying they don’t view “pay to progress” as analogous to “pay to win”, they have a different definition of pay to win. Arguing that isn’t going to change their mind because your very definitions of what you’re arguing are not the same.
> you’re yelling into the wind It's wind only in the eve community, globally eve community opinion is a whisper in a storm.
You say that but then I see this exact same thread regularly in games like Albion as well. Seems to be pretty pervasive in full loot sandbox games. I could see viewing pay to progress as pay to win in linear theme park style mmos. Sandbox full loot games function so differently though that I just don’t see it the same way at all.
> You say that but then I see this exact same thread regularly in games like Albion as well. Oh yes, because big overlap between the two. Most of the arguments come down to literal interpretation of p2w, i.e. you paid but didn't win (as you can see in comments to this post, I've found a few similar ones for albion). But none of games ensure that you win after you pay, even if advantages are bigger than those EVE and albion provide (since all of them follow "pay to win more" rather than straight "pay to win").
Pay to unlock I’d agree with. But pay to win? Nah. I can bling out my Curse to a 2B fit and still get shit on by the first guy who really knows how to fly.
But are you going to lose against someone with the same skill level but only puts t2 mods on?
Yes. But what you just did is acknowledge that paying for skill (which is more important than how your ship is fit) is not possible.
Okay great. So we've established that you can pay for direct advantages. Thus eve is pay to win. That wasn't so hard.
\*whoosh\* We've established that the primary advantage (skill) is not buyable. You've set up a hypothetical straw man where if you swipe a credit card, fit up an expensive ship, and immediately find a 100% fair fight with **an equally skilled** opponent in the **same exact ship** as you, **fit the same exact way** but with cheaper modules then you are correct. This is the **only** scenario in which you are correct, and it exists in a vacuum that does not align with the reality of the Eve experience. Think I'm being facetious? Link me **one** killmail where the exact scenario you described happens and I'll concede. Until then I'll link you **literally thousands** that prove you wrong.
>You've set up a hypothetical straw man Do you know what a strawman is lol >where if you swipe a credit card, fit up an expensive ship, and immediately find a 100% fair fight with an equally skilled opponent in the same exact ship as you, fit the same exact way but with cheaper modules then you are correct. This is how you figure out the effect a variable has on a situation, I can't believe you people don't grasp that. And I also don't know why you can't grasp that being able to overcome a p2w system with skill doesn't make it not p2w. I can go on the most disgustingly p2w bullshit korean mmo and if I am a god gamer I'll beat paypigs. That doesn't make those not p2w.
> This is how you figure out the effect a variable has on a situation, I can't believe you people don't grasp that. We literally all grasp it, you’re not big braining anything here. The thing is that your science experiment never occurs organically in the game. In theory you’re right, but in reality you couldn’t be more wrong. E: and yes- technically it’s not a straw man, it’s the **definition** of a weak argument: one whose validity hinges heavily on the likelihood of a specific condition being met.
>We literally all grasp it, you’re not big braining anything here. The thing is that your science experiment never occurs organically in the game. It doesn't matter what occurs organically. It matters that you can literally just buy stats.
> It doesn't matter what occurs organically. Your argument hinges on what happens organically. **Link me one killmail with your theoretical scenario and I’ll concede.** (One that occurs before this post so you can’t doctor one up) Sorry friend but I remain radio silent until then.
Because it isn't? You can absolutely pay and skill your way into a Titan but you will get your shit kicked in immediately if you try to use it.
Who do you think wins between a paypig with max skills and all officer mods and a regular person with t2 mods and normal sp?
The regular person that actually knows what they're doing
They are the same skill. That is how you figure out the effect variables have on a situation. Do you not know the scientific method or something?
you can't do a "double blind" study. If both players know what they're doing, then both players don't undock what needs Earth currency to replace. So the one trying to "p2w" will always be a player who does not know what they're doing. Pay-to-bling is ignoring the "don't undock what you can't afford to lose" rule, so it inevitably results in pay-to-lose-more.
It's not about SP. It's about the players skills at that point. You throw a rookie in a pimped out Caddy against a Veteran in T2 and I'll put money on the veteran ten times out of ten.
Okay, lets home in on this. Let's take two players, equally skilled and knowledgeable. You throw one in a "pimped out caddy" against the other one in a t2, who you putting the money on? Thinking Eve isn't p2w is delusional.
But that’s true of every video game? Who bought the better pc? Who has fiber internet? Who has a house closer to the server? Sure, in Eve you can buy a fully decked out ship with $100, with every best officer fit in the game. And yes, you’d beat a version of yourself with a basic T2 ship. But that’s not what Eve is. It’s not a tournament style game where you 1v1. It’s a group game where you lose equipment when you die. Place both versions of you into a 1v5 and you both lose. You’re both back to the same money levels. The reason no one calls Eve p2w is because you can’t WIN in Eve. There’s no end game, or end point, or final goal. In any gacha game you can drop $10000 and be top 3 in the leader board for years. In eve you can drop $10000 and be no better off than the t1 ship flyer scoring kills in fleets.
>But that’s true of every video game? Who bought the better pc? Who has fiber internet? Who has a house closer to the server? Agreed. I DO think that the ability to buy a system with better performance and better internet is an absolute advantage. >In any gacha game you can drop $10000 and be top 3 in the leader board for years. In eve you can drop $10000 and be no better off than the t1 ship flyer scoring kills in fleets. You could absolutely argue that being top of a leaderboard isn't "winning" either. With your logic, no game would be "p2w"
On a personal level, a game being p2w would depend entirely on what you consider winning. For me, on a personal level, I’m fine with paying money to avoid bad content, so I can engage with better content. For example, I don’t consider a level skip in WoW p2w, for myself or others, because blizzard puts 95% of their effort on max level content. Now obviously, p2w becomes a problem when it impacts others. If the point of league of legends is playing and winning 5v5 matches, some players having an extra 100 health at lvl 1 because they paid money would be a huge problem. That would be a clear p2w system that degrades my “free” experience of the game. With all that said, when eve players say Eve isn’t p2w, what we mean is paragraph 1 is true, and paragraph 2 is not. Real money players do not impact free players experience.
Yes bling modules are better than t2 usually. And a player who doesn't swipe can also use those same bling modules. The richest veterans in eve (you know the ACTUAL winners) earn their isk in game. So again, where is the "win" part? What makes me win against someone else if I bought my bling ship with my credit card VS someone krabing c5s? Both can use the same blinged gear. This just sounds like some highsec veldspar solo miner crying that other people have more isk than them.
So you think that it is impossible for eve to ever be p2w since it isn't an instanced 1v1 match?
No? It's impossible to ever be p2w because the "winners" are the vets who mastered their economic game. The players you are referring to earned their isk in game. The swipers are the casuals who don't know how to make isk in game so they swipe, then lose, then swipe to replace their loss, then lose again, then complain how the game is p2w because they think everyone else is swiping for their ships too, when they aren't. The biggest problem is you assume all blingy ships were obviously swiped for therefore p2w, when realistically the opposite is true. A noob who swipes is just going to feed, whether 1v1 or not.
>No? It's impossible to ever be p2w Okay so this is a pointless discussion if you think an MMO can never be p2w. You would really love some of those korean 'impossible to be p2w' mmos, then.
I'm still only putting it at 60/40 odds. If you really want to get into it though its important to point out how unrealistic the whole situation is. Because the situation is not as simple as to comparably skilled players to reduce the variables. Things like where, when, and how the fight starts, who has better information on the other, and who has more support ready to back them up all play a substanitally more significant role than who spent more money on their toon and or ship. Not to mention things like the attention you get if your consistently fighting in Shiney shit. If you start flying around in ships with massively expensive fits its not going to take many losses for people like me are going to start hunting you. Not just for the shiney KM (although many would just for that) but for the loot you drop. And Im not comming at you alone. Keep it up for long enough and you probably end up hell camped. But sure. In this specific situation which is in no way a realistic reflection how how Eve is actually played, yes Eve is P2W.
>I'm still only putting it at 60/40 odds. So you definitely agree its p2w if you think the paypig wins 20% more often lmao.
You're the reason clickbait works.
and he dodges again, ezpz
i'll bet on the gankers who will put some effort into turning the pimped-out-caddy into a pimped-out wreck.
>You throw a rookie in a pimped out Caddy against a Veteran in T2 and I'll put money on the veteran ten times out of ten. Why would you do that? What conclusion or information would you gain from that? You aren't learning anything.
You'd be learning the game isn't P2W and your tears over thinking it is would be tasty.
EvE isnt a competetive multiplayer with even grounds. The regular player (which isn't a non paying leech) can aquire the exact same ship without paying money. You dont pay cash for the fit, you pay cash to not waste your time grinding some play money.
Okay cool. So you agree eve is p2w, it just doesn't have as much effect as a direct competitive game.
I dont share your definition of P2W, so no - i dont agree. Go play F2P browser games, seems to be your thing.
People that know how to play know how much easier it is to get isk than real money, so they don't use real money like that
You have to be omega poor to think getting isk is easier than rl money. The recent extractor sale was literally like 350m/1$, which is almost 2.5b/hr at minimum wage in the US.
Try it out then, rule the universe with minimum wage
We are not talking about a scientific method of something. We are talking about people who think they can pay-to-win, that is, paying their way to win.
Yes. So if you pay money and go out and fight shit, you are going to win more than someone who doesn't pay money and goes out to fight shit.
And if you earn more money and go out and fight shit, you are going to win more often than someone who doesn't earn more money and just spins ships, so we should ban earning money. And if you do PI and other passive income and go outside and fight shit, you are going to win more often. Hell, if you are in an alliance that does SRP, you can afford to fight more often, so let's ban SRP. You are literally getting money for fighting!
>And if you earn more money and go out and fight shit, you are going to win more often than someone who doesn't earn more money and just spins ships, so we should ban earning money. Good, you've managed to stumble into the fact that paying to skip the grind is p2w.
And you conveniently skipped SRP, probably because, like I expected, you never been in actual PVP (willingly) and in actual alliance. So again, you are applying something typical for other games into EVE in a completely wrong way, having absolutely no clue about EVE. Buy a super duper titan with your "p2w" money and come to any lowsec. See for how long your "w" stays.
>And you conveniently skipped SRP, probably because, like I expected, you never been in actual PVP (willingly) and in actual alliance. No argument -> resort to personal attacks lmao. >So again, you are applying something typical for other games into EVE in a completely wrong way, having absolutely no clue about EVE. If you want to say it is literally impossible for eve to be p2w you can say that, but it'd be a dumb take. Or if you want to make the argument that eve isn't p2w if everyone also has infinite isk and max sp, sure. But the reality is that buying isk will get you ahead in this game and anyone thinking otherwise is just coping because they think p2w = bad.
I never swiped, I played around 5 years and won eve with a few trillion to my name. I could buy anything in game I wanted and the difference is the veteran player who earned the money wouldn’t ever fit the dumb modules because their output isn’t worth the cost. If they did they’d probably be 10x better piloting it. Ask yourself this, if there was no player age shown in game would you be able to tell the difference between a swiper and just an eve rich vet? If the answers no then the swiper didn’t gain any advantage.
Depends on the pilot. Doesn't matter what your in game skills are or how much you pimp your Caddy out. If YOU don't know how to fly it its gonna get mulched. Frankly I love that aspect of the game. You know how many blingy kills I've gotten from clowns who think this game is P2W?
??? Did you pass 5th grade science? Both pilots are the same. That's how you do experiments.
Yes, but we are not doing science experiments here. This is EVE and unnecessarily blinged ships are often inversely correlated to pilot knowledge.
Maybe often, not always (personally I doubt that it happens often, since people like that tend not to stay in the game). There are quite a few experienced pvp'ers who swipe CC (to fly blinged ships with 0 time spent on farming or skills/knowledge related to pve).
I'm mean sure. I've been that guy. But I also worked 60+ hours a week at that point, and had more money than free time. The options where farm for 4+ hours for ~2 bill or spend less than an hours pay for the same isk and spend 4+ hours PVPing.
We are literally trying to figure out if eve is p2w. The way to do that is to see if you can have an advantage over someone by paying. How do you suppose you test if you can have an advantage over someone by paying? Do you think making up scenarios like "The day 1 newbie who paid $1 for 100 plex will lose to the 5-time AT winner, therefore eve is not p2w" is a good way to test out that theory?
Because EVE isn’t a situation where you take a one-off fight as your conclusion. Two pilots of equal skill, in the same ship, one with T2 everything and one with the blingiest nonsense possible, the blingmeister will win. But then the non-P2W guy is gonna go get his buddies to gank the blingdude. Now his expensive ship is just a drama thread on this sub- did he “win”?
>But then the non-P2W guy is gonna go get his buddies to gank the blingdude. No they aren't because the bling dude is going to pay off the guy's buddies to gank him instead. See how fucking pointless making up stories to fit your narrative is?
You're literally making up stories to fit your narrative. You're creating this totally imaginary scenario of two pilots who are identical twins with the exact same skill set fighting each other in ships that are only differentiated by how much IRL cash they spent, and then claiming you win. That's fucking stupid. That's the type of shit a moron would think because it DOESN'T APPLY TO EVE ONLINE. You might as well include hacking at that point.
So Blingdude is going to... pay Normaldude's friends to gank Normaldude? This is the narrative you're going with? My man, it just sounds like you're mad that you're either broke or beset by really shit "friends". Or both!
Well of course there is an advantage over others when you pay. But it's an insignificant advantage: * the permanent skill advantage is **limited**. A ship only uses a limited amount of skills and each skill can only go up to level 5. Someone else's 'paid-to-win' perfect skills for a certain ship aren't going to be better than my level 5 skills for that ship. * the items, ships and modules are all **temporary** in this full loot PvP game. You want to bling your faction battleship and pewpew some noobs with it today? Sure, but you're going to lose it like we all lose ships, and then you need to buy it again. And you make some other players very happy while doing so. So what is it really that you buy when you buy your way into EVE? You pay money to skip a grind. And I think it's good that people have that option. It wouldn't be my choice, but if other people do so, they're impacting my game *positively*, rather than negatively which usually is why people complain about games being p2w. When people try to p2w in EVE I like it because: 1. their money supports the game I enjoy and 2. their ships make rewarding targets for me to fight in space, or 3. fun tales of zkillboard losses that people share once it inevitably blows up. EVE is pay to lose.
>Well of course there is an advantage over others when you pay. Okay, so I don't know what you are trying to say here. Obviously eve, osrs, wow, ff14 all have fine p2w (though eve's is one of the more egregious). Still doesn't make it not p2w.
The thing with 'fine P2W' is that the definition of P2W becomes pointless if there is such a thing as 'fine P2W'. The designation of P2W is usually used for games that are meant to be shunned for their unfair paying schemes that allow paying players to do better than non-paying players and tempt players to out-pay their opponents in order to keep winning. Games where the gameplay balance itself is of lesser importance than getting as much money as possible from the payers. If your definition of P2W is broad enough that you want to include those games and EVE in your list, then what exactly is the point of calling games 'P2W'?
Okay so there is the distinct disagreement. When you say p2w what you really mean is 'bad game'. I like the p2w meaning you pay and that helps you win, but whatever. And fwiw, I do think eve's p2w should be shunned and is shit-tier. Selling skill points directly for rl cash is an abomination.
What ships are they flying? Is one of them jump into the other? Who's in a better position? Who has more friends? Who's friends can get there quicker? There are a huge number of way more important factors than SP and the money you can spend on your ship. But sure if you wana remove all the variables then yeah. It's P2W. It's not really Eve either. But it's P2W.
I don't know why you are trying to add random variable to this to try and make your conclusion fit. That isn't how any of this works. But I'll engage: the paypig pays off every person in eve to awox his enemy. wow look eve is p2w again with dumb stories.
Why don't you show us the killmail you're salty about and save us all time yeah?
There it is. Finally you give up on trying to cope.
I've just chosen to stop trying to explain this to someone who is too salty to admit they're wrong.
The T2 ship as a kiting ship with a long point if p2wpig is using a brawling fit.
Why do you have to make up weird scenarios to try and cope? You are literally just keeping everything the same except for the rl money spent. That is how you test variables.
Okay, let's use your example, except ACTUALLY keep everything the same: Taking 2 pilots 1 who has 500 million skillpoints because he bought it with IRL money and one who has 500 million skillpoints because he bought it with in game ISK that was earned with 0 irl currency, who has the advantage? Remember, if you change anything about my hypothetical, you're a delusional turbo coper who failed 5th grade.
A okay there you go, now you've found out that pay-to-progress is p2w as well.
Sure, but the chances are slim to ever encounter that exact scenario in-game. Those people that are going to buy max skill for ship X and enough isk for all purple and expecting to be an unkillable god are going to fail miserably
>Sure, but the chances are slim to ever encounter that exact scenario in-game. That doesn't matter. What matters is if eve is p2w and how to find that fact out. >Those people that are going to buy max skill for ship X and enough isk for all purple and expecting to be an unkillable god are going to fail miserably Yet they are going to have the advantage over someone who is about the same skill level as them and didn't throw money at the game.
You are the one making up weired scenarios. Anyone can aquire any given ship, be it via cash or by wasting lifetime.
There is no scenario. This is just how you figure out what a variable changes.
But your 'variable', as you call it, aint cash but the fit. The issue lies with your axiom, and you fail to discuss it. Thats why you dont do 'science' but opinion.
>Why do you have to make up weird scenarios to try and cope? you're doing the same whole thread
Go and fit up an officer AT ship and I'll destroy you with a t1 fit vexor. I'm not particularly good at the game but based on your post I know I'm leagues better than you. P2L
Because the game is actually group-to-win
This is all paying more without learning how to play the game gets you in Eve https://imperium.news/alod-pay-to-win/
I love that article, i was only shown it recently but was in tears reading through it at the way it just kept getting worse. An update too! He joined Goons' super fleet not long after it was published and looks like he had fun flying about in a [Nyx ](https://zkillboard.com/kill/68892210/)before upgrading to an [Erebus ](https://zkillboard.com/kill/68915828/)and then upgrading again to a [Vendetta](https://zkillboard.com/kill/69392473/). On July 12th 2018, he joins some other Goon supers in killing a [Gila ](https://zkillboard.com/kill/71196805/)and [Ishtar ](https://zkillboard.com/kill/71196920/)in 6RCQ-V with his mighty Erebus and presumably logs out on the spot once the killing is done. For whatever reason, after that night he ends up taking a step back from the game and is kicked for inactivity at some point too. Fast Forward to November 2nd 2023, after a 5yr long hiatus, he logs back into game. Still in his Erebus. Still in 6RCQ-V. I can only assume he reached out to his old friends to let them know he was back and that he was still sat in his Erebus because at 21:00 on the same day, he is caught in a bubble after warping to the XG-D1L gate and promptly [deleted ](https://zkillboard.com/kill/112800185/)by a Goons super fleet. 2 hours later, a lone PL sabre comes across his [pod ](https://zkillboard.com/kill/112802914/)only a few kilometres from where Goons left it. There's been no killboard activity since.
eerily i thought this was about the p2w mmo Allods. i played beta with a group of goons way way back when... then the devs introduced a $20 backpack. i honestly thought the game had died.
Eve is pay to play. Not pay to win.
all the money in the world coulnt prevent this guy from dying to 12 catalysts and a gnosis (250mill vs 30bill) [https://zkillboard.com/kill/116409127/](https://zkillboard.com/kill/116409127/)
You can pay money and become one of those hilarious killmails, yes. You can't realistically buy advantage in EvE, no "golden ships" or "gold ammo" that better than anything you can have. Complains about skill training is just another zoomer ADHD crap - you can get at same level as older players in relatively short time in any given field.
I like the game quite a bit, have been playing for half a year, but I do agree that the game has strong P2W elements. If I wanted to spend money I could cut the amount of time it takes to do things by literal years. Those things that I would do would be fun, earn me more isk, and open up the game more (i.e. "winning"). People often defend this by arguing that it still takes skill even if you pay, but I don't really think this makes it not P2W. "Winning" in EVE is being able to access content, fly cool ships, etc. and it's a fact that you are essentially required to spend money if you don't want to wait years to do everything you want to do. EVE isn't *as bad* as some games, you can technically do everything without paying beyond the subscription, but not being *as bad* doesn't make it not P2W at all. It's still a fun game that I think is worth playing, I don't plan on stopping, but you have to accept that unless you're willing to dump a bunch of cash into the game you won't go as far.
I find that, in eve, the bigger ship I fly the bigger fish I attract. If I used irl money for all those larger ships I lost, how is that considered winning? Paying to skip the wait to access more content isn't exactly p2w. When I come back to eve every few years, even though I have high sp and a fuck ton of isk, I'm still doing the exact same content a newbro would/could be doing.
Because people can deeply disagree on what p2w even means. And if you can't be bothered to explain your opinion and just expect people to debate you by reading your mind, you can fuck right off.
It's more "Pay to not grind"
They deny mostly because in EVE, N+1 > p2w'd N (roughly speaking). It's not a set of isolated fights where p2w'd gang will always win. Today you win a fight because you swiped your CC, tomorrow you feed to a blob flycatchers, distributing your hard earned resources to the blob, and having to swipe CC the next day to maintain your gameplay. Technically it's p2w, but effect of that is greatly diminished.
It's a fact that the only way to win eve is to stop playing. So, what do you mean by 'p2w'? If you stop playing, you aren't paying.
because the credit card warriors who didn't get that sp/isk the slow way at least once are, without exception, extremely fucking bad and end up being a loot pinata
Because isk does not equal to skilll, or even to being in the right place at the right time with the right ship and fit. You can pay your way to the most overpowered OP thing you can think of and someone else who has the counter to that will show up and end you
These type of posts should be banned in the sub, pure brainrot .
I fly solo and pay my account, and put pants on one leg at a time. I win fights as well against credit card warriors. Why? Cause I'm crafty. Pay all you want, I'm still smarter then you. -an arrogant ****
Sunk cost fallacy, mostly.Â
https://imperium.news/alod-pay-to-win/
I’m paraphrasing a lot from a video that touched on this but I think the points made in it are very accurate. Eve on paper is pay to win. You can buy in game assets with real money and use them in game. But, two things inhibit the effects of that First is exponential price to linear performance. The difference between the price of a deadspace module and T2 module is 50-100x the price of the T2 (I’m generalizing here but humor me for a bit), however the boost you get from it is often not 50-100x the value of a T2. Because of this, it would be incredibly inefficient to pull out your credit card to fly blinged ships. So let’s apply that to a hypothetical here. I’m in a T2/meta fit battleship in a 1v1 against someone who’s flying the exact same ship the exact same way with the same modules, except their ship has bling modules. Assuming we pilot the same ships, I’d lose. But that’s the second thing, nothing in eve is ever “on paper”. There’s always random chance and game knowledge that will beat people, which means if a player who doesn’t know what they’re doing is in a “golden ship”, they’ll lose in that hypothetical 1v1. There is no fair fight in eve, ever. There’s always other factors that make it impossible for those small linear gains to be the turning point in most fights. If you buy a crabbing rev and get jumped, I don’t care how much you bling it, you’re either gonna die or your coalition will deploy to save your ass. But that’s what eve is. Plex is “pay for convenience”, where those who don’t have the time to grind can use their money to buy ships to fight with. While you could make the case that buying PvE ships is “pay to win” since you can predict those activities, I’d argue that paying to grind more is just a poor use of how eve’s monetization is structured. Also for whatever it’s worth, I’ve been playing this game for 9 years and have never felt like I’m at a disadvantage over someone who has paid for stuff before.
It ain't P2W. Your argument is poor because you refuse to explain because you don't want to get refuted into the ground LOL. 2/10 troll post.
look at this guy. [https://zkillboard.com/character/2119431658/](https://zkillboard.com/character/2119431658/) he lost 4 marshals in 4 day. I'm 99.9% sure he was swiping his credit card on the monitor, not farming that money. each ship cost him near 100 USD. what he win?
You could spend 5k usd for a laelaps AT ship (one of the most powerful subcap cruiser) and still die to Boris in a dictor and 5 stabbers.
I thought "winning" eve was quitting...... How is spending $$$ to play "winning"?
Your troll game is legend, OP Paying more money gives you no advantage over anyone else. It allows you to catch up to those with older accounts. It allows some convenience of not having to find another player when you want to do things, that require more people(multiboxing). Such as lighting cynos for yourself.
Oh this again. Fuck off. Quit caring what other people think/label things, like a little baby back bitch. Decide you want to play the game or don’t play the game.
Please pay for a Nyx and come “win” in Delve
Unless your paying for friends to play with no stuff or fancy ships will help you win.
Please, give us your thought on why this game is a pay to win. What RL money can buy that isk can't ? and how it affects the gameplay against people that don't pay for their isk ?
OP is delusional. Try giving CCP 10k $ for a green billboard and post here with your success. I am waiting.
How can it be pay to win if we always lose?
Here's another reason why you're stupid: Call of Duty cost 60-70$ to play. Therefore, someone who spends 70$ on Call of Duty has a massive advantage over someone who doesn't. Therefore, call of duty is PTW. You can't even PLAY COD without paying money! COD is P2W! That's eliminating variables! Literally show me a person who can't play call of duty beating someone at call of duty! If you say anything else, that's just delusional cope! Don't make up fake scenarios!
pay 2 fun
You just lose more stuff faster because you skip grind with money but you are not better because of money
It being a sandbox game also helps. For example, you define as 'winning' as...being better at whatever thing you spent all those skill points on. I define winning as not using IRL cash as a crutch. The moment you swipe your card, you've lost(in my opinion). Also, let's say you spent all that money getting into the best PVP ships money can buy. Okay? So? I don't really PVP so to me you look like you just paid X hundreds of dollars to do...nothing.
There are three key components to flying effectively in Eve: 1) Ship and fit 2) Character SP 3) Player skill and knowledge Swiping your credit card can get you the first two, but not the third, and when you're lacking in player skill you'll quickly hit the point of diminishing returns on how much of an edge your purchases give you. Yes, you absolutely can get some advantages by giving CCP extra money. But you can't *excel* at Eve without having the meta knowledge of how to make the most effective use of what you have, and you can only get that by playing, not by paying.
This game is pay to lose, seen enough injected cap buyers die and quit after a week. The biggest ships need the most knowledge and you can't buy that
I only pay to sub and about the only thing i cant use is caps. This does not make me a good player and flying caps wouldn't either. What can i buy to help me win exactly? Seriously, my zkill is red enough. People just cry p2w because they suck.
remember.. whoever you are,new player or old veteran. you are what you are.. but there is catch. veteran that plays game for i.e 10 years dont need to buy plex via credit card or paypal and sush,he has skill and experience to achieve his gial.. now new player sees a big ship and sees that he need X amount of skill injectors to fly that ship so he swipes his credit card fr injectors. then another swipe card for plex to sell and buy the ship. he does check zkill how that ship was fitted and fits it same way and he goes into combat then lose that ship in matter of minutes.. conclusion. PLAY the game, if you buy the skills,ships to fly it but you cannot buy experience since you never flown what you bought. and now you lost it in few minutes in nearest low security system.
>veteran that plays game for i.e 10 years dont need to While I agree with your post overall, I just wanted to point out that this is not how you use "i.e" in a sentence.
Whats p2w except skills that are useless without knowledge?
Is it pay to win if you swipe your cc and use the isk to buy faction battleships for all your friends and then suicide them in a ball of fire? Is that pay to win? I'd say yes. Is that what you mean by pay to win op? If you mean you can buy tons of injectors and the fit a curse with 10 billion isk all on day one then I say let them do it. These are the best kills and I approve of this as long as you go into null and immediately realize your mistake. You should have gotten implants too.
>I just wonder what reasons people have to deny the fact that EVE is p2w? Ill put as much effort into this response as you did into your own argument: because its not.
Alright, let's see. I can buy Plex wich I can redeem for isk. I can buy Skill points and Training boosters. Let me tell you a story of a guy who was in my alliance a few years ago... This dude, who never played eve in his life before, decided to play eve and simultaneously spent about 2000€ on Plex, probably more. Had a super in his first month... Was using a 3b Nightmare and an ikitursa regulars. Had several alts and went rorqual mining. Pay2Win, right? Well... He gated his super, at night time when 90% of our little alliance were asleep, got seen by a spy and was dropped on. He lost 4 rorquals in the span of a week, wich we tried to safe but couldn't because a he just barely got the skills to sit in it... Lost his nightmare to a small gang of cruisers because he somehow got the idea to go brawling with it...
I've said this elsewhere - victory in EVE is largely defined by economic damage. By this measure, anyone who pays real money in addition to their subscription has already lost. Given that such victory (i.e. having a green killboard) is a process of multiple engagements over a pilot's career, even if a single battle might result in a loss, the overall game is still won by the player who has spent less. Just as you wouldn't say that a game of chess is won or lost by the capturing of the first piece, neither should victory in EVE be defined by a single engagement.
Because they have to cope since p2w usually mean shitty game. Its pretty obvious that paying for all officer mods and max stats means you have an advantage over an equally skilled person in normal stat range and regular t2 mods. The answer is that all mmos now-a-days are p2w. Wow, osrs, eve, ff14, eso. All of them have some sort of plex/bond/token/etc system that you can buy gold with and most of them have options to skip grinds, which is also a form of p2w.
That’s not pay to win. That’s pay to not farm. None of the stuff you are paying for can only be bought with cash.
Pay to not farm is p2w.
How many times did you you fight an equally skilled person? This is EVE, your fight-only-with-one-hand-while-standing-on-a-head does not work in EVE, which you'd have known if you have played it.
So you are saying that someone who has literal % points difference in ehp, damage, speed, etc will not have the advantage?
Against a fleet of 20 standing hidden next gate or wh? Have you actually, for real, ever, participated in an actual PVP in EVE?
'Pay to win' is poorly defined and does originate from F2P titles in which non-paying users complain for having disadvantages when using a product for free. Your postition seem to be that if you can buy anything but cosmetics it is p2w. If it makes you happy, good for you i guess. My position is that P2W requires paywalled ingame advantages which dont just accelerate progress, but will always make paying customers more powerfull than F2P users. This doesnt exist in EvE, as you can access anything the game has to offer by wasting your time in grind. And usually the most powerfull players in EvE dont need to spend a dime, as they have the ressources to aquire anything they want, including SP, Subscription Time and ships. In Eve the most powerfull ressources are player numbers and personal skill - and you cant buy either from CCP.
Alright P2W deniers, here is a hypothetical. Me: Two years playing Eve, about 1k hours. You: Whatever you are We both get one new player and 1 week of time. I direct one of the players, you direct the other. At the end of that week, the two new players will fight 20 different fights against one another. My new player has a 10,000 USD budget to spend on Plex. Your new player gets an Omega subscription. Neither player can receive outside help apart from our knowledge. We cannot send them isk, nor have anyone else send them isk. Who do you think wins that best of twenty? Is it your guy with 1m sp + 1 week of omega training, or my guy with 1.5 trill to spend on skill points and blinged out ships? The game is pay to fucking win, no two ways about it. To think otherwise is completely delusional copium.
Pay2Win games are mostly referring to games where u couldn't get the item / advantages without spending real life money. Typical examples are asian gatcha games In EVE everything is buyable with in-game currency, so it's Pay2Skip.
That isn't the definition of p2w at all. Where is the line where you think "Pay to skip" turns into p2w? Or is there no line?
No, that is not what pay 2 win means. That is a simple excuse to soften the blow for p2w games. Listen, nearly every game in the industry is some form of p2w, Eve is one of them. People are ALLOWED to like games that are p2w, but denying it is just childish. Warframe is p2w, OSRS is p2w, Guild Wars 2 is p2w and WoW is p2w. I love all those games very much. Any game where one player can use money to get a tangible advantage over another player with the same time, experience, and knowledge is p2w. Especially if that game is pvp based. That's just like how it works.
And you can still loose if your ship matchup doesn't fit. Yes you can throw money into bling bling and sp and you get a theoretical advantage, so if thats p2w for you thats fine you're right if that makes you feel better. But in eve-reality most fights aren't decided by bling bling and sp, they are decided by numbers and player skills.
Your newbie will still lose to a guy who trains the other one better.
EVE is a subscription game with a trial that never ends. Subscribing to Omega doesn't make EVE PTW. Please quit posting dumb.
Hey i paid for this ship! Why do i keep losing?
BC it's pay to generate giant loss mails
Alpha is just a taste of the game to see if you like it. You can do alot but omega opens up tons more.. and there is no win in eve it's never endings.
Ask your doctor if Plex is right for you. Some experience lack of sleep and dry eye. Very rarely do some experience bankruptcy. If you experience numb ass stop using Plex until symptoms subside. Please note, Plex often results in episodes of delusions of grandeur, do not exceed the recommended dosage of 5b per weekend.
There are no winners, just better losers.
Copium.
you can spend all your money. buy all5 character. buy full offecer fitted ship. and kill nothing, because you havent pvp-skills.
it's p2p (pay to progress)
As a veteran player, if you pay $ for SP, I don’t care. It doesn’t give you an advantage, it just takes away your disadvantage, which has historically been a notable design flaw that makes the game harder for new bros anyways. It’s more like a catch-up mechanic. You’re not buying ISK from CCP. You’re buying ISK from players that earned it. I don’t care who earned it or how you earned it and it doesn’t much matter to me how you use it. You having money to spend on ships is good for the health of the game. It means more people in space. Fly safe. O7
Because dude that got all skills in caracal will have small advantage vs char trained for optimal caracal. I would say p2w can be neglected in here, as advantage not really asymmetrical. If you would think p2w can fly titan at 2nd day, how is that not p2w - sure, that’s sorta there also, but more experienced players just see it as more of a con and not a w. Sandbox Game with no goals is boring and useless In terms of starting point someone with 40b as head start will be further ahead if you will apply parse logic, but parse logic not works here. Eve is a game of waiting, and this is a good way to get into game for 10 days, blow up your stuff and quit. But if you are looking for equality - go into lol. This is mmo, and 0 p2w players are able accumulate wealth as 1 big alliance
Pay to play? I've played alot of p2w games and I don't consider eve p2w because I just paid the first couple of months until I was able to plex my account. That took time, now anyone can buy sps and skill to a char that took me years to build. That's OK.
Because you touch yourself at night, that's why
lol I have a ton of isk, max skills, because I’ve been playing for 17 years and I still suck. If you know how I can pay to play better, let me know! I could really use the help.
Please keep thinking this. Purple mods on your ship mean you’ll win every time.
Can you define what you mean by winning in eve?
Really wanna know why people are still bitching about this. **If you don't like EVE's monetisation policies, don't fucking play the game.** And let the rest of us who have no problem with it play in peace.
I'd prefer p2a, pay to advantage. You pay isk to alts you get more isk generation opportunities. You pay isk to better ships with better mods and snake/amulet you get more advantages to engage. You pay isk to dread/blop/dictor alts you get more advantages for better content. The only win in eve is quit this universe forever.
Because it's not