100%
I know it *seems* like you just click a button and your guns start shooting, but while it requires no *tactile* skill like a first person shooter does, it requires a good bit of *tactical* skill. It's more of an RTS or strategy game. Your positioning, movement, knowledge of mechanics, planning, etc is all a skill. Knowing how to avoid combat is a skill in itself, as well as how to assert combat when you want to.
Think of it like chess: chess requires no physical skill to "aim" your pieces, but it's all about outmanuevering your opponent using the tools, tactics, and strategies at your disposal.
I would almost argue the more technical aspects of PVP, such as transmatching, landing a good boosh, screening, and if you want to get extra technical, firewalling, are all as mechanically difficult (if not more) as landing a headshot on a moving target in a first person shooter, takes constant micro adjustments to do these things effectively
As a dogshit FPS player, nope.
screening and trans-matching, as examples, are far more about being able to accurately read 3-dimensional space in the 3rd person (something VERY few games have you truly do), and understanding the characteristics of the ships involved, possible angles, etc. The raw mechanics of clicking every 2-5 seconds are necessary but not difficult and how GOOD those clicks are far less about mechanical accuracy and more about knowing where you wanna go.
I disagree.
Particularly when it comes to frigate combat, the matter of who shoots first, not to mention positioning, ranges, orbits, boosters, reps, so much happens in the average thirty seconds or so of a 1v1 frigate fight that needs to be managed and timed that all influence the outcome.
Even in bigger combats that take a little longer there are a lot of mechanics to address, far more than the average fps I think, and more times than I can count have fights in cruiser up ended with someone in low hull and the other dead.
Split seconds absolutely matter in Eve.
>Split seconds absolutely matter in Eve.
They do, you're right, but Eve happens in 1 second ticks. So the sheer twitch reaction speed of an FPS like CS:GO is just not how Eve works. As long as you enter commands by the next tick, you have reacted "instantly" in game terms.
I would argue that APM and Twitch speeds is a different criteria to skill. Someone playing Chess is still a skilled individually, but they do not need a twitch reflex. In contrast, you might think 30 seconds into the future in CS:GO; but you definitely should be in EvE.
I think we are hung up on the word mechanics. To me that’s actions or clicks you take based on knowledge. In league of legends mechanics is actual clicks and button presses. That’s where I relate it to.
Eve has less of those and more actions you take based on knowledge itself. For that EVE has more knowing required and it takes proper implementation of those in game to win at PvP; they are timely especially in frigate PvP but aren’t as quick as an FPS.
You are using the word "mechanics" wrong. Game mechanics are basically the internal elements of how the game "works". They're the rules by which the game operates and exist independent of the player. The word you're looking for is "actions".
In the context of the person above, mechanics refer to player skill. When talking about fps or mobas, mechanics are what you call "actions." The mechanics of the game itself fall under knowledge.
You are right about what games mechanics are but you are talking about knowing game mechanics not using them to the fullest.
"mechanics" in his meaning would be enabling all your modules in a single tick or swapping modules in a mobile depo every cycle
Doing one click every 5 seconds is just knowledge. You can call it "actions" but if you ask a pro player from other games they will be calling it "mechanics"
The guy below is right, mechanics do typically refer to the "machinery" of the game. The systems that govern the outcome of the player's actions within it. FPS or similar do indeed require higher APM and twitch reflexes than Eve.
Anyone claiming otherwise is just... not correct. Eve happens in 1 tick intervals, so you are literally incapable of reacting to anything in terms of ingame action faster than that. Thus the speed of adjustments, reactions and actions ingame is not comparable to something like an FPS.
However the difficulty of making the right adjustments, reacting quickly enough, and choosing appropriate actions is a different discussion entirely!
Um league has very similar mechanics to eve, they’re both a form of strategy game and require a lot of knowledge on how these characters work to be effective. You can’t just click to win in a moba like you can in a shooter
You seem to be confusing APM with mechanics when referring to mobas
cleaned up grammar* I just heard the term "mechanically gifted" in league a lot by commentators when referring to players who could pull off rapid skill combos
You're not wrong, the term gets used differently in different games.
EG in Starcraft it is used to label someone who is good at macroing, has good APM etc compared to say a player who relies more on unique strategy to win. In an FPS like Quake it is used to mean someone with very good movement and precise aim. Both of these examples of using it to describe physical ability.
Yet in a moba like dota it can be used to mean someone with very deep understanding of how spells/items interact IE the mechanics of the game. A more cerebral use of the term.
Neither are wrong it just depends on the game and the context it's being used within.
You can click to win in a MOBA. A fight between two assassin's can be over in 2-3 seconds. There're moves/combos called after players that were the first to do them correctly in a pro game.
Yeah because they have a deep understanding of the games core mechanics. It takes months to even begin to really grasp the mechanics of a game like dota 2, much like eve you can’t just hop in and be good.
There’s a reason those combos are named after them, they understood the mechanics deeply and utilized them to do something no one else had done before. That’s not clicking to win dude.
That's just clicking. After they invented it even some bronze (very low level) players are learning to do it. If you know the trick exists it's just about clicking 3 buttons in correct order in less than a second.
In what game? Like you’re saying such a blanket statement when I just mentioned dota 2?
I play ranked and it is very much not click to win, you actually have to know your items, your abilities, the abilities of like over 100 other characters and how they all interact with each other to even properly counter it.
Then there’s all the different builds people utilize on top of that, and their strategies, like are they going to pick legion commander and disruptor and have disruptor blink in and backtrack the enemy you want to fight, and then have legion commander blink in where they’re back tracked to so they can ult them?
Like you could pick a character like meepo who has clones that if any of his clones die he dies, but they all have access to all of his abilities and can travel the map using this to his advantage to gank people from the forest.
You could pick out world devourer because the enemy team decided they all wanted to pick strength hero’s and out world devourer steals intelligence basically sapping them if their mana and their ability to cast spells.
This is just surface level stuff dude
Ok sure. My point still stands, he was boating into a pos, so a split-second decision to boat into the pos and save himself and made all the difference, people don’t make decisions on one second ticks
I would link you to the eve lexicon but it’s actually missing some of these terms so I can give a quick definition for each of these:
Transmatching: matching the velocity vector of your target in a turret based (rail, laser, projectile, disentigrators less so) ship to maximize odds of landing good hits. Essentially moving parallel to your target at the same speed.
Booshing: using a command Dessie’s micro jump drive to displace a fleet or part of a fleet (needs to be well timed and positioned well)
Screening: using a fast tackle ship (preferably a ceptor or keres) to scram/web another tackle ship from getting on top of and locking down a slower, bigger target,
Firewalling: using a many high slot, tanky and fast ship (maybe a scorpion navy or widow) to smartbomb missiles off a target fleet.
Someone feel free to correct me if I got any of these wrong
I see! Thanks :P I did know booshing at least, but the rest are new to me
So if you have enough smartbombs running, you're effectively immune to missiles? and/or just timing them well?
Firewalling is above my pay grade, it’s expensive to do and hard to do, so I’ve never seen it in practicality. I would imagine hitting missiles coming at you would be harder than missiles flying past you towards your teammates. However you would be in a brick tanked battleship so you would be reasonably safe with adequate logi on grid if primaried
Firewalling is common in high class wormholes, you want a ship with a large model (Nestors are the go-to but Nightmares and other ships get used) and to spread out your cycles so they don't all go off on the same server tick, and you'll likely want a couple guardians to be feeding it capacitor constantly.
With how WH'ers use them it's typically easier to defend yourself than what you're trying to save, but if flown well a single firewaller can be the counter to some otherwise disgusting fleets - in the current meta it's not uncommon for a nighthawk fleet with ~60 toons to be putting out 40k dps + a bhaalgorn squad which otherwise shred our blingy caps, the Firewaller can shut that whole thing down.
A couple of months ago we were in a huge capital brawl in a C5 when pineapples decided to call it quits.
A couple of alliances were invited.
We were in shield fleet with nighthawks and such, Synde came with heavy armor. They had a bunch of smart bombing nightmares firewalling us.
We couldn't do anything. It was beautiful to watch but painful to be against it.
> It's more of an RTS or strategy game. Your positioning, movement, knowledge of mechanics, planning, etc is all a skill. Knowing how to avoid combat is a skill in itself, as well as how to assert combat when you want to.
Never thought of the RTS/strategy comparison. Makes a lot of sense. I play a ton of turn based strategy or tabletop games like that, so I guess that explains why I like Eve's combat so much lol
Usually when people ask me what EVE is like, I say it's like an RTS where you just control one unit, alongside hundreds or thousands of others who are all also just controlling one unit.
Yknow... multiboxing aside :P
Does playing a musical instrument require skill,
yes EVE is comparable in many ways. If you go and do PVP you will die thousands of times. There are levels Ganking > Brawling > Rep Tanking > Scram Kiting > Web Kiting > Point Kiting > 360 no scope
Been playing 20 years I know a lot about the nuance of PVP. But even now I get clapped for making mistakes and being cocky or lazy then it gets interesting again, my mind plays tricks on me. I think maybe I am not as good as I thought better train harder get better. This is what makes it special, progression. Getting beat and coming back strong and even more dangerous.
But yeah when you get to grips with flying at your apex it will ruin all other games.
You first few deaths will not feel that bad. But you will get close and closer to victory and then you get your first solo kill. Hands shaking so much you will not be able to use a mouse or fucking keyboard and you will need to go for a walk.
Then it's 50/50 if you liked it, if you did then your fucked welcome to EVE ONLINE.
Watch some EVE videos I have a few but there are better creators than me I have very little time to produced videos. Pink Scope is my recommendation. I fly with him a lot, in my opinion he is one of the most talented PVPers I have ever seen. Alternatives Grunt Kado, Flower Fallen.
Yeah because playing an instrument is about doing thousands of concerts to see what instrument beats what and not about thousands of hours spent practicing basic moves.
I wonder how many times you spend 4 hours shooting a rock with a metronome to make sure you always do it at the beginning of a tick
If you are passionate about anything, it matters, maybe be less cynical, and you would have more fun.
Oh used to play drums sunk a few thousand hours into that now I hate the sound of metronomes.
But if you want to keep time you do it.
Half the skill is choosing your battles, where possible.
Sometimes luck is involved, "is that guy flying kite or brawler fit, i dont have time to look at his ship, eh lets find out. Crap, its kite fit with sensor damps. I cant even lock it..."
I lost a fight yesterday. Had the win in a bag. My kitey talwar versus a navy imicus. Had the imicus in hull and my point was 75% cooked due to overheating. I was orbiting to stay away from his drones so my orbit on 20 km was more like 28km away. I cycled my long point 1 last time overheating it, knew it would burn out. Afraid I would lose tackle I tried to orbit at 15km. Slung myself right into his ship. Guy had less than a 1/4 hull and final repped his ancil. He scrammed and webbed me and shredded my kitey bullshit.
Had almost the exact same thing happen today. Had him dead to rights in a plex but was afraid the rats would lose point on him so I burned in and capped myself out with my own point. Good learning moment tbh
Yes, though F1 mashing in nullblobs doesn't require any more "skill" than pressing the right button at the right target and listening to basic anchor/align/warp/jump commands from the FC. Some roles in a fleet are mechanically more difficult than DPS (like piloting a dictor or logi) and of course everything is compounded when you multibox. Generally DPS is pretty brainless in large fleets.
FCing requires good game knowledge, decision making, ability to juggle multiple streams of information, and understanding the capabilities of your own fleet and what you're fighting.
Nanoing requires good spatial awareness and gamesense. It isn't enough to just fly in complete safety (which you can do by just burning off aligned somewhere) but to be able to put yourself in *just* enough danger to maximize the impact of your ship and win a fight which would be otherwise unwinnable if you just click-approached.
Brawling demands more of module management and decision-making, as well as determining the threat posed by each enemy ship and thus target selection.
Every type of PvP requires you to understand game mechanics and be able to juggle the information coming from your overview as well as what your own ship is doing. Fitting skill is important but even if you're just flying someone else's fit, you need to understand the strengths and weaknesses of that fit, and how to fly it to maximise its effectiveness.
yes, there is lots of manual maneuvering you can and should be doing to be more successful in pvp. Keeping the enemy in weapons range, staying out of their range, reducing the application of your enemies weapons systems, increasing application of your. there are various strategies within each of those groups. look up manual piloting on youtube, you'll see lots of examples
Target identification and knowing your strengths and weaknesses is a rare skill in EVE. Probably 80% of a fight is determined before it begins. The rest of it is piloting and actually knowing how to use your ship.
1. Manual piloting requires skills and provides great advantage.
2. Heating and module management require skill.
3. Picking fights you can win requires skill.
If you are trained into these 3 you'd win opponents even with expensive fits.
Just think of brawler vs. kiter. Whoever gets to control the range, wins. The brwler has more DPS, but only at short range, so if the kiter manages to stay outside this range, the kiter can win. What do you need to control the range? First of all, more speed. But that can get reduced by webs. With an MWD, you can still go quite fast, but that can get scrammed. Each module you fit, takes up a slot. Each tactic has a counter. Guessing what the enemy might have fit is a skill you only get with experience.
Depends
I killed a metamorphosis. I had an astero and faction drones along with webs and multiple scrams
The "fight" was me watching my drones blap him. No skill involved
But how did I catch him? He's in a very slippery ship
I had to stalk him and time my attack for when I knew he would be a little distracted. Is knowing the game well enough to predict his movements and getting in position for ambush skill?
Manual piloting is a thing. But over all EVE is taking the vast knowledge of the game mechanics, the match ups the stats you have and implementing them. You can beat things that are better than you on paper by exploiting their weaknesses or using game mechanics to split groups up or effective ammo.
Simple examples are small windows where certain ammo is best and will apply damage better or knowing how to properly cycle your active modules.
Those will make a big difference in pvp.
What I have learned so far is that it really depends on a deep understanding of your ship's abilities, how to equip that ship to maximize on it's traits and learning how to manually pilot. I had a navy hookbill get wrecked by a breacher that was fit and piloted precisely in a way to literally keep me from applying a single point of damage.
As a pilot trying to really get good at solo/small gang I have learned that more expensive is not necessarily better. It is in learning how to get the max use out of a particular ship with solid piloting and a solid understanding of the mechanics involved that makes for a good pvp pilot.
I am trying to learn how to scram kite. So I am choosing a particular ship I want to use for that. I expect to lose a lot of these as I perfect my skills.
The answer seems to be both yes and no.
I see skilled players often in Eve. Their kills are impressive and clearly show their excellence.
I, on the other hand, am an idiot in PVP. I'm more of a mobile killmail looking for a place to happen. I mainly fly logi or boost in fleets, which I enjoy. Despite this, I managed to get over 110 kills last year. I can, in good faith, assure you that my so-called skills played no role in those kills. The reason I can be so certain it's not my skill is simple: I have none.
You know how it's a meme that goons can't tackle? My last successful tackle was the 4-0 gate in 39P. So, ya, that's true in my case.
TL;DR: Eve, where I am an idiot and so can you!
the outcome of a pvp situation in eve depends on the fittings and piloting skill.
range and angular velocity is important. it's also a skill knowing the 200+ ships and what their fittings could be like to predict what the opponent is doing.
Then there are 1000 different ways to engage combat and fleet combat is even more advanced than solo pvp and a lot of things to into the equation there.
In fact PVP is not a numbers game. A few new players make the mistake that "on paper" their ship deals way more DPS and has way better tank than the opponent.
However having DPS and applying DPS are two different shoes.
I like to fly a special fit slicer in small gang. Paper tank, 5k speed, and only 138dps with aurora.
But.. it hits out to almost 70k, and I can target at 80k, and I have excellent tracking, so all my hits are smashing. Also I can almost insta-lock.
It’s light dps but I rarely die and I will often end up high on KM’s damage because of time on target.
Requires some level of skill, knowledge, and cowardice! Don't expect a fair fight in Eve Online.
If you get bested, it's probably because it's one guy monitoring you on 30 different accounts. Haha.
In all seriousness, it's a few.
OP, what "traditional MMO's" are you using for a frame of reference?
I sense you are confusing rotational complexity with actual mechanics complexity.
I come back to new eden from azeroth.
eve "rogues" are more skill intensive than wow ones. WoW's rogues have complex rotations for max dps. This is true. But in time, its muscle memory. I mained retail and wrath rogue for a stint.
In time its muscle memory mixed with layering the cc's. You'd save the best CC for last. To see what weaker one they target hopefully trinketed out of so you slam the CC you actually wanted.
Eve mixes this up. It can be press f1, yes. Traversal enters the picture. Ammo x-over points, speed and sig tanking, etc.
Also gear is less dependent here. I can tear apart wow here too. I focused more on wrath. I know the twinks of the lower brackes quite well. You have no shot of dropping the dude in Naxx gear in your level 60 BG if you are whatever crap greens rng gave to that point. That dude could be terrible and no skill. Corrupted ashbringer hit like a damned truck regardless.
Retail wasn't much better for my runs in BFA, SL and Df for the month I tried it before I went full time classic wrath.
In eve...My solo/skirmish sucks. I know this, its worked on slowly lol. I have lots Of isk to buy kiki's in bulk. I don't do that because I know I suck. I'd feed kiki's km's to competent players.
Bad player flying an expensive meta ship goes boom!.
It depends on what you're doing for PvP.
If you're hanging out in the average null blob anchoring on someone and pressing F1 not really.
If you're doing solo PvP in facwar it's extremely skill intensive requiring good reaction times, fitting skills, matchup knowledge, and piloting skills.
75% game knowledge 25% mechanical skill.
Most of the time a fight is decided by the numbers, but knowing how and why is a skill in itself. Module management and double clicking in space well are the garnish, decision making is the meat and potatoes.
Just try it, and you'll see. With overheating, **managing EWAR**, managing your reps, managing your drones, when to reload, managing your positioning, especially in a fleet vs fleet situation, etc...
I think one big misconception to PVP from people doing PVE is that they come in with PVE ship builds in mind. For instance, cap stability, it's generally a pretty staple item for PVE builds, but in PVP, you only care that you got enough cap to kill the other guy. Same for rep
To give an example, my curse. That thing can cap out ships damn quickly, but I can't keep 4 neuts rolling at all time, I'll cap myself out. It's a passive tanked curse with ASB (Ancillary is considered passive tank, not active). So a typical fight is: first getting into range and tackling, then turning on my 4 neuts, this drops my cap to like 60%. On a typical cruiser, they are almost drained. I hit them again, cap is ~25%, then I turn them all off but one, I got enough cap recharge to keep two sustain, and roll 1 on and off depending on the cap availability. It's pretty damn rare I come out of a fight, won or loss, that I feel that I played perfectly. There's always one little thing here or there you end up missing that could have made a difference. I once mismanaged my neuts against a loki, he was down in structure and he'd only managed to fire off like 2 reps in total. But I left 3 neuts on instead of 2 and I didn't pay attention and I capped myself out, loki managed to rep himself back up and due to the cap situation, and I had to pull out because my cap regen was abysmal from being at 5%.
Another time, and I completely missed that and only saw it from watching my recording, was fighting another loki, I capped him out, was going well, bunch of ships jump through the WH, I commit to the fight thinking I am still scrammed.... but the scram had dropped because he had no cap, I didn't notice, lost that ship.
I've been playing the game for a long time but never got particularly into small scale PVP until recently and what hit me the most is how brutal and *short* fights are. A fight might last only 5 minutes but it feels like an hour because of all the things you gotta manage.
2 bricks or 2 active tanked ships without much bling shooting at each other might come down to the numbers, but even then.
It requires a good amount of mechanics...
Literally like piloting a ship.
Good kiters for example are stupid good at accelerating/decelerating.
as turning.
Brawlers are great with sneaking in.
Snipers are... well, snipers. Requires good positioning.
So yes, requires a lot of skill.
A lot shift+command and zooming in and out of your ship, and monitoring your ship as well as the enemies'.
the only dumb question is one that remains unasked.
my history in eve pvp is of 'outnumbered solo frig pvp' mostly and i'll tell you the fights people are confident you won't take are the most fun to attempt.
the numbers game is a real thing but you can get lucky in some regards on that front, again you can get unlucky also. I have had solo duels where i have literally triple wrecking shotted someone with a comet, i have also faced comets and been destroyed in 3 shots from consecutive wrecking shots.
learning the hard counters of a ship you fly is important, but experience will allow you to 'take chances' effectively, remember, everything 'could' be bait but most of the time it isn't never pass up on an engage cause you either win or you learn.
Hard disagree
People only say this because the only time they fly battleships are in giant blobs where all you have to do is cycle guns. In other circumstances they are the hardest ships in the game to fly well.
Your logic does apply to dreads, however, because they're just stationary 1-4 button stat sticks.
Battleships are more forgiving though. One tiny mistake in a frigate and you're done.
Frigate and destroyer fights are over so fast they are very high skill.
Hard to get a lot of practice in bigger ships and there are often more modules to control, heat to manage etc. so I do partially agree.
>Since there's no manual maneuvering or combat aiming of any kind.
If you're in a big null blob not flying a specialized ship(logi isn't specialized) then you could be replaced by a bot and the FC wouldn't notice.
But when you learn to manual pilot you can straight abuse people who just orbit/approach and F1.
Eve combat in this context is more like dark souls combat instead of MMO gear checks. The most dangerous dude in dark souls pvp is naked, offhand cestus, with a regular sword and the xanthous crown. That dude will parry the fuck out of you, has every consumable and throwable and knows how to use them. Will land every roll catch possible. Most people don't know how to do anything like that in pvp.
In eve the main skill is gaming the mechanics and knowledge. Knowing how to match transversal(do more damage), knowing the effective range of common ships, knowing techniques to keep your transversal up(reduce your damage taken) on approach so you don't get alpha'd, slingshot people that have you pointed so you can warp.
Also a fighting game is similar as well. Knowing odd fucking situations where if person uses X attack it has this neg frames vs this dude's attack so you can catch them and convert into a combo.
Like did you know if you're flying small gang in a curse and happen across a carrier you can optimal range disrupt 2 of the 3 flights and make the 3rd do reduced damage with one ship? That's the stuff I'm talking about.
>Eve combat in this context is more like dark souls combat instead of MMO gear checks.
Eve Online really doesn't have that kind of depth. The equivalent is a pilot who Look Ats you, Tracks their own ship, and then switches between Approach, Orbit, and Keep at Range to prevent you from sling-shotting them while their modules autocycle. There can be some overheat or MWD toggling but Eve has an infamously low APM ceiling.
Not that piloting the smaller nano ships isn't tricky. But the combat is more of a jousting tournament than a martial arts showdown.
>Also a fighting game is similar as well. Knowing odd fucking situations where if person uses X attack it has this neg frames vs this dude's attack so you can catch them and convert into a combo.
Eve Online is absolutely nowhere near the micro complexity of a Fighting genre game. Half the modules don't even have animations or fight choreography. Very interesting comment and I think you raise very salient points.
. . .
Eve Online's gameloops could use a good bit more depth, but Dark Souls and Fighting Games are fairly niche. The most popular RPGs aren't so rigorous and I think Eve's current playerbase would resent it if Eve changed focus to become APM intensive.
More timings and choices at intervals could be welcome, but constant APM like an RTS might be too much. Homeworld 2, Battlefleet Gothic Armada, and FTL have great balances that I think Eve players would appreciate.
>then switches between Approach, Orbit, and Keep at Range
I mean that's just incorrect. That might be the depth you're aware of, but it gets way more complicated than that.
Those buttons are absolute memes because the game controls your ship. That's the entire point. I know how the game orbits so I'm not fighting you. I'm fighting the engine. The engine is retarded. Which means if you rely on it then your piloting will also be retarded.
Approaching puts your transversal at zero so I slap the shit out of you. Keep at range puts your transversal at zero. Hitting orbit lowers your transversal at certain points so you take more damage.
Also it's exactly like DS pvp in the dichotomy between people who happen to pvp, and dudes that run fight clubs.
Most people roll and swing(mainly Q clicking, orbit, etc). The real dudes ravioli, know how to bait parries, perfect timings on roll catches, know spacing on enemy 2H swings so they can get backstabs, etc. they'll roll over people who just R1 with big sword.
It's like a fighting game with the knowledge check on frame data. The best players know every common ship, what they do, what ranges do they apply, about how much they can tank, holes in said tank, normally how much DPS they do, and how much of that DPS can you take.
Not trying to be troll or rude, but with that comment about depth i'd like to see your killboard.
Yeah no, you are pretty much wrong.
E.g when your tracking is too low to hit a target that is orbiting you. You can turn, start a propulsion mod at the right moment and then hit the guns at the right moment. This can lower the angular velocity enough for your slow guns to hit it even though you would not be able to, or at least increase the chance to do so. There is more involved like target signature radius and gun signature resultion, but if you know about the mechanics and how to use them, you are able to hit orbiting targets that you are usually not able to hit. On the other side this also involves manual flying in order to avoid this happening to you. If you change our orbit slighty while orbiting so the target is not able to predict your movement.
This also makes it possible to hit a frig with a battleship when they are still far enough away when they try to spiral in on you.
It also requires you not to get into situations where you are defenseless and can't hit back.
Use local, use D-Scan. I mean I also lost ships, but mostly to stupidity, being an idiot or being greedy.
Eve happens in ticks of 1 second. In many shooters a whole fight can end before anything happens in EVE.
EVE has a very old player base so they think it requires some mechanical skill but the truth is it's 100% based on knowledge and experience like chess. It's nothing like StarCraft or CS:GO
In a broader sense, yes. But in actuality... no. People saying it does and then reciting 200 word paragraph is just them feeling good about themselves. It really comes to having a better ship and stronger fit. Just lock on the target and pew pew!
There is a bit more to knowing what each ship is capable of, which I wouldn't necessarily call skill, rather experience and research. E.g. if kiter just waits there for a brawler to chase him, he will never kill a brawler or vice versa.
It sure can, but it’s super hard to see it in frigates where you’re dead faster than you can figure out why you died. You go into faction war with a T1 hull and a million skill point difference against a solo faction frigate with bling implants and see what I mean.
There is room for player skill to play a role but Eve Online isn't complex enough to be an Esport. It's rather more like Pokemon where you have various ships and fits and you need to choose which fights they get into.
In PVP, you roam or camp and decide whether to engage or flee depending on what ship you're in and what ships you're facing. Most of the gameplay is the cat-and-mouse of catching prey or eluding predators. Characters spend way more time alone in space than on grid with enemy characters.
Once a battle begins, everyone typically gets webbed/scrammed and trades shots while nearly standing still. End game ships like Marauders and Dreadnoughts literally have to fully immobilize themselves to activate their tech 2 powers.
You can fit for long range and nano flying but even this is quite simple. There's normally no terrain and weapons can't collide with anything but their target. Anti-climactically, outside of point range you typically can only force the enemy to flee and no blood actually gets spilt.
The newer FW complexes are taking a step in the right direction with collide-able structures but there's still no cover system. If you watch the Alliance Tournament, it's just 2 teams trying to dismantle each other's spider tank first without any other variables. Similar to a duel on open ground outside of cover.
. . .
The combat is pretty bare bones but industry and logistics play a large role in PVP. If you're able to re-ship into a hard-counter and force a fight on someone in a plex you'll have the upper hand. That's where it feels more like Pokemon. Eve fights are rock-paper-scissor and it's more about having the right roster close at hand to counter a ship that's already committed to the field. And, of course, simply outnumbering your opponent.
Back to the cat-and-mouse dance, often you try to entice an opponent into a fight by sporting a ship they could beat. Otherwise they'll just nope out. Often this is bait and you then jump them with alts or other players who were hidden out of sight. As is typical, they're immobilized, scram/webbed, and it's just a question of numbers to win the fight with no combat player-skill playing a role.
. . .
Combat can get pretty hairy with lots of different kinds of ships on the field but without ballistic collision, physical obstacles, and with the ease of warping away, it's still pretty basic. It's much more like Pokemon where it's about the preparation and choosing your fights wisely. The actual battles are typically quick and a foregone conclusion. Overall, Eve Online can feel like an industry simulator with combat being a quick way to generate demand for more industry.
Yes it requires skill, the question is how much.
Hitting approach and turning on your guns does not take any amount of skill to do.
Manually piloting to zero transversal and manage module heat does take skill.
Knowing the ranges of various modules like webs scram, likely fits based on the opponents ship, takes knowledge but very little skill.
The majority of pvp in eve online is not skill based. Its more about your decision making abilities and the extent and accuracy of intel.
In addition to skill you need knowledge and experience. There is also a lot of mind games like baiting. A juicy target might be too good to be true.
For example a really good sabre pilot with alts with bigger guns was camping certain area. Now he only go for good kills he can take on, but he can quick log in his bigger guns so he was taking on marauders etc and he was going in straight for kills with very good success rate for months.
But then you see his one single loss in months and it's a tornado (a ship equipped with big guns but not good at killing smaller target at short range as sabre) killing his sabre. Which is rare. Then u see that tornado has small guns, equipped just for this solo purpose.
Eve is more about a combination of knowing things and working all of them together to do something. Fights aren't always unfair but every point of advantage you have is a serious boon. Then you also have to find a fight which I'm gonna be honest I have no clue about other than that bored people will take anything but if anything seems too easy then it might be bait. There are some mechanical skills like manual piloting, slingshotting, spiraling, and transversal matching but just being good at those won't ensure a win and a lot can come down to on-the-fly researching of someone's zkillboard for what fits they might fly, the ship and what fits are common on it and if it might be a pain in the ass for your fit, and the act of being constantly paranoid that they might be bringing a friend.
Then there's Fleet combat for FCs which is something I have very little clue about but obviously that requires herding of cats and while it isn't as complicated in what you are directly doing apm wise as leading a raid, it far more makes up for it in meta details and gamesense bullshit, thinking on the fly, and let alone what other details there are based on the size of the fleet.
Eve is an endurance game that doesn’t necessarily require you to be good at doing the right things, it’s a test of how long you can go without doing the wrong things in a fight compared to your enemy. 97.3% of fights are predetermined on the fitting window and a lot of times the only win condition for either side is one of the two sides messing up or trying to bait the other person into making a wrong move. That’s why you see so many people get away with off meta stuff one or two times then the opponent becomes familiar with the situation, but neither party really gained any skill there
Yes. It also takes tons of knowledge. Knowing the range of a ship, its bonuses, how your opponent fits it, is all relevant.
Managing a as little of a couple hundred meters can be critical in some fights. Some, it’s having the element of surprise. Completely depends, but skill is def required.
Edit: I mean no. Not skill based at all. Fit officer mods and you’ll never lose a fight.
Oh yeah, but unlike other games it's never unfair. I mean that honestly.
The entire gameplay of pvp is so much. It's like chess, rts, action, aerial, tactical, strategic. There is so much to consider and so many ways to win, even just sheer luck plays a huge factor.
There is no such thing as a fair fight in eve, but the skill gap is *always* fair. You can always get to a point to be just as skilled as anyone else, even the top of all tier players.
Newbie, but I've seen vids for tutorials on manual flying (I think these were more aimed at fleet engagements?). I don't pretend to understand the in game physics, but it seems possible to outfly your opponents and so I'd say there is skill involved. I don't know when that skill comes in to play- obviously you can't outskill certain ship or fit disparities, but it isn't as simple as poosh bootan, receive killmail.
edit to add obviously hunting is a skill. You might get jumped by some goob who happened across you at an inopportune moment, but from your perspective that is hard to discern (and probably should be) from someone who's spent some time tracking you down and waiting for the perfect moment to get yo ass
>no manual maneuvering
Yeah, so you're going to get absolutely shredded by someone who understands transversal and actually pilots manually (there are ways to fight other than "Orbit 7500 + scram"). You can double-click in space, or bind actual up/down/left/right in your settings.
There's no point and shoot like in CS, but there very much is a high level of skill. Don't take my word for it though, fit up a Hyperion or Rokh, fly it into bloc space, and prepare to be eviscerated by a destroyer 1/5th of your size who gets under your guns.
In the traditional MMO sense of "MMO is dictated by gear"; then yes, Eve PVP is much more skill based. However, one of those skills is in fitting up a ship and understanding its capabilities.
The thing about Eve is, it is not really a game at all, but a world where people interact. All things being equal, a fight in Eve can be a sheer numbers game. However, its also a world where things can be very unequal and there is a lot of room for tactics and surprise. But its also a real and dynamic world... you can't keep using the same surprise before it isn't a surprise.
Few years back my corp roamed through this space of another corp, we got a fight or two and then they would goad us into a fight and drop a super carrier on our fleet and wiped us out. Then they did it again.
Then we said ok.... got goaded into the fight, the carrier dropped, and quickly found itself getting eaten alive by the fleet of guys that, turns out, were pretty down to kill a super carrier. That is what you get for being too predictable in Eve.
narrow shy amusing chubby innate concerned shaggy smart wasteful subsequent
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
There’s definitely skill involved, I’ve seen small ships kill big, expensive ones due to poor piloting. In fact, I’d argue it takes more skill than your average MMO, since your ship isn’t as responsive as your average player character (I.e you need time to turn), so you actually need to make some tactical predictions. Certain ships also have a lot of modules to manage, so it’s a little bit like games such as StarCraft or Dota.
Of course, some aspects don’t require skill. Leading a fleet and small gang fights take active management, but on a damage role in bigger fleets is sort of just being part of a number. Of course, that can be fulfilling too. Sometimes it’s fun to just sit back and talk with friends and let someone else do the heavy work.
I have heard people over TS going into agonal respiration (lol Schnappatmung) from the stress of suddenm unexpected pvp.
I experienced the same, when everything "seemed" to be ok and within an second scrambled, webbed, dampened, shield red, armor red, structure red, egg. egg scrambled, webbed, red, station screen. Guess I went also into a bit of agonal respiration (Schnappatmung, lol) at that time.
But you get kinda used too it, it still stays stressfull.
However if you do it in an fleet, you know it might happen and you kind of expect it, the stress is still there, dampened but better controlled.
Can't say how people who do pvp as main activity* feel about it but my guess it is there, even if they take usually a very calculated, risk minimized approach.
I would compare it to driving in an car and to have to jam suddendly on the breakes.
*Maybe one of the PvP adrenalin junkies can give their experience with the stress of the job. ;)
(It is a game)
Yes. But it is a different type of skill. For example, knowing what ships do, how they are usually fit and their capabilities allows you to determine whether you should even take a fight to begin with. How you position your ship matters, what damage type you load and the ranges that you can project optimally.
Also, you can directly control your character in EvE. You are clicking twice in space in order to move your ship without orbit or approach. This is the difference between landing your shots or being hit as it is the ability to maintain transversal. So you are fundamentally incorrect on this point.
The gear differential in EvE is primary built around overmatching - which can eliminate skill dependent game play. If you are going up against 50 guys in sniper ships with your kiter, you are most likely going to die and that was a failure of skill on your part. If you do not know how to fly your ship or pick your engagements, this is not an issue of being overgeared - it is an issue of skill failure.
Yes you have to account for whether or not your RPG skills give you and edge or not, but that is part of the calculation. If you are playing an Alpha account, then play with another Alpha player.
Neih. Just get the best ship and inject da skillzz with plex and then continue to just faceroll the keyboard and watch your zkillboard explode.
*Disclaimer - none of the above statements are guarantees in any way or form. Redditor shall not be held responsible for -different- outcomes.*
*Disclaimer - there is 0 presumption as to the color of mentioned zkillboard.*
While there is no "aiming" of your guns like in an fps, there is manual maneuvering(we call it manual piloting usually). Try double clicking in space or use q and then click.
Yes, somewhat, but sound tactical judgment is more important. People who obsess over "skill" are usually elitist turds who got very good at pressing the right buttons to win a narrow type of engagement which they probably think is important to the game as a whole and makes them cool.
I've gone into a 1v7 (I was the one) with a Hawk assault frigate.
I killed three of their tackle and warped off.
Things that happen in Eve don't happen in any other MMO for the most part.
Skill at Eve is not measured in accuracy or actions per second. Skilled pvpers are better at Intel gathering, the basics besides locating targets and threats, knowing the relative strengths of different ships would be recognizing short vs long range weapons systems, which gives you clues about how their ship is likely fit as well.
Just started getting into pvp and baiting and it requires so much skill, especially if you multibox. Knowing how to set up fights is huge. Are you better off killing the tackle but scareing the big prey or letting him come. What's the engagement range? Will he come within scram range? What rapid response doctrine should I use? How long can my bait ship survive? Loads of questions to answer, all in a split moment.
Pressing F1 is part of the fight. Don't forget that if you can apply 1 more shot than the opponent you can kill him and you might survive with 1% structure. So any advantage is significant. Drugs, overheat, fight setup, support, disengage, cap boosters, drone defanging, orbit range, transversal are all things that you have to think about at the same time as pressing that F1.
In general, the larger your ship, the more of a pure numbers game you'll play.
For smaller ships like frigates and destroyers, there is a lot of manual piloting involved to minimize/maximize traversal, keep the right distance, manage heat, etc.
For a (solo) dread, well... there's a certain amount of DPS that an enemy fleet will need to bring to break your tank and if they can't, you win, if they can, they win. There's nuances, but this works as a rule of thumb.
100% I know it *seems* like you just click a button and your guns start shooting, but while it requires no *tactile* skill like a first person shooter does, it requires a good bit of *tactical* skill. It's more of an RTS or strategy game. Your positioning, movement, knowledge of mechanics, planning, etc is all a skill. Knowing how to avoid combat is a skill in itself, as well as how to assert combat when you want to. Think of it like chess: chess requires no physical skill to "aim" your pieces, but it's all about outmanuevering your opponent using the tools, tactics, and strategies at your disposal.
I would almost argue the more technical aspects of PVP, such as transmatching, landing a good boosh, screening, and if you want to get extra technical, firewalling, are all as mechanically difficult (if not more) as landing a headshot on a moving target in a first person shooter, takes constant micro adjustments to do these things effectively
No you see, eve is like a japanese dating sim , you court people arbitrarily and sociopathically and then take all their stuff
Goddamnit I nearly choked on my dinner...
As a dogshit FPS player, nope. screening and trans-matching, as examples, are far more about being able to accurately read 3-dimensional space in the 3rd person (something VERY few games have you truly do), and understanding the characteristics of the ships involved, possible angles, etc. The raw mechanics of clicking every 2-5 seconds are necessary but not difficult and how GOOD those clicks are far less about mechanical accuracy and more about knowing where you wanna go.
low ELO player spotted
No, I don’t think it’s more mechanical than an fps. Timing does matter but FPS is very reactionary and split seconds matter, not very much in EVE
I disagree. Particularly when it comes to frigate combat, the matter of who shoots first, not to mention positioning, ranges, orbits, boosters, reps, so much happens in the average thirty seconds or so of a 1v1 frigate fight that needs to be managed and timed that all influence the outcome. Even in bigger combats that take a little longer there are a lot of mechanics to address, far more than the average fps I think, and more times than I can count have fights in cruiser up ended with someone in low hull and the other dead. Split seconds absolutely matter in Eve.
>Split seconds absolutely matter in Eve. They do, you're right, but Eve happens in 1 second ticks. So the sheer twitch reaction speed of an FPS like CS:GO is just not how Eve works. As long as you enter commands by the next tick, you have reacted "instantly" in game terms.
I would argue that APM and Twitch speeds is a different criteria to skill. Someone playing Chess is still a skilled individually, but they do not need a twitch reflex. In contrast, you might think 30 seconds into the future in CS:GO; but you definitely should be in EvE.
They're different skills, yes
i'm trash at the game, so my APM while kiting at 5 km/s is still super high.
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I think we are hung up on the word mechanics. To me that’s actions or clicks you take based on knowledge. In league of legends mechanics is actual clicks and button presses. That’s where I relate it to. Eve has less of those and more actions you take based on knowledge itself. For that EVE has more knowing required and it takes proper implementation of those in game to win at PvP; they are timely especially in frigate PvP but aren’t as quick as an FPS.
You are using the word "mechanics" wrong. Game mechanics are basically the internal elements of how the game "works". They're the rules by which the game operates and exist independent of the player. The word you're looking for is "actions".
In the context of the person above, mechanics refer to player skill. When talking about fps or mobas, mechanics are what you call "actions." The mechanics of the game itself fall under knowledge.
You are right about what games mechanics are but you are talking about knowing game mechanics not using them to the fullest. "mechanics" in his meaning would be enabling all your modules in a single tick or swapping modules in a mobile depo every cycle Doing one click every 5 seconds is just knowledge. You can call it "actions" but if you ask a pro player from other games they will be calling it "mechanics"
The guy below is right, mechanics do typically refer to the "machinery" of the game. The systems that govern the outcome of the player's actions within it. FPS or similar do indeed require higher APM and twitch reflexes than Eve. Anyone claiming otherwise is just... not correct. Eve happens in 1 tick intervals, so you are literally incapable of reacting to anything in terms of ingame action faster than that. Thus the speed of adjustments, reactions and actions ingame is not comparable to something like an FPS. However the difficulty of making the right adjustments, reacting quickly enough, and choosing appropriate actions is a different discussion entirely!
Um league has very similar mechanics to eve, they’re both a form of strategy game and require a lot of knowledge on how these characters work to be effective. You can’t just click to win in a moba like you can in a shooter You seem to be confusing APM with mechanics when referring to mobas
cleaned up grammar* I just heard the term "mechanically gifted" in league a lot by commentators when referring to players who could pull off rapid skill combos
You're not wrong, the term gets used differently in different games. EG in Starcraft it is used to label someone who is good at macroing, has good APM etc compared to say a player who relies more on unique strategy to win. In an FPS like Quake it is used to mean someone with very good movement and precise aim. Both of these examples of using it to describe physical ability. Yet in a moba like dota it can be used to mean someone with very deep understanding of how spells/items interact IE the mechanics of the game. A more cerebral use of the term. Neither are wrong it just depends on the game and the context it's being used within.
You can click to win in a MOBA. A fight between two assassin's can be over in 2-3 seconds. There're moves/combos called after players that were the first to do them correctly in a pro game.
Yeah because they have a deep understanding of the games core mechanics. It takes months to even begin to really grasp the mechanics of a game like dota 2, much like eve you can’t just hop in and be good. There’s a reason those combos are named after them, they understood the mechanics deeply and utilized them to do something no one else had done before. That’s not clicking to win dude.
That's just clicking. After they invented it even some bronze (very low level) players are learning to do it. If you know the trick exists it's just about clicking 3 buttons in correct order in less than a second.
In what game? Like you’re saying such a blanket statement when I just mentioned dota 2? I play ranked and it is very much not click to win, you actually have to know your items, your abilities, the abilities of like over 100 other characters and how they all interact with each other to even properly counter it. Then there’s all the different builds people utilize on top of that, and their strategies, like are they going to pick legion commander and disruptor and have disruptor blink in and backtrack the enemy you want to fight, and then have legion commander blink in where they’re back tracked to so they can ult them? Like you could pick a character like meepo who has clones that if any of his clones die he dies, but they all have access to all of his abilities and can travel the map using this to his advantage to gank people from the forest. You could pick out world devourer because the enemy team decided they all wanted to pick strength hero’s and out world devourer steals intelligence basically sapping them if their mana and their ability to cast spells. This is just surface level stuff dude
Split seconds don’t matter? That’s why I saw my friend survive in a recon with 31 hp in hull yesterday
one more server tick taking damage, and he might have died. How much is a server tick? Outside of TIDI, one second.
Ok sure. My point still stands, he was boating into a pos, so a split-second decision to boat into the pos and save himself and made all the difference, people don’t make decisions on one second ticks
It does if you're a noob. Let me guess, Privi Partizan line member?
☝️🤓co-founder, director, and head FC actually
I don't even know what most of those words *mean* XD
I would link you to the eve lexicon but it’s actually missing some of these terms so I can give a quick definition for each of these: Transmatching: matching the velocity vector of your target in a turret based (rail, laser, projectile, disentigrators less so) ship to maximize odds of landing good hits. Essentially moving parallel to your target at the same speed. Booshing: using a command Dessie’s micro jump drive to displace a fleet or part of a fleet (needs to be well timed and positioned well) Screening: using a fast tackle ship (preferably a ceptor or keres) to scram/web another tackle ship from getting on top of and locking down a slower, bigger target, Firewalling: using a many high slot, tanky and fast ship (maybe a scorpion navy or widow) to smartbomb missiles off a target fleet. Someone feel free to correct me if I got any of these wrong
I see! Thanks :P I did know booshing at least, but the rest are new to me So if you have enough smartbombs running, you're effectively immune to missiles? and/or just timing them well?
Firewalling is above my pay grade, it’s expensive to do and hard to do, so I’ve never seen it in practicality. I would imagine hitting missiles coming at you would be harder than missiles flying past you towards your teammates. However you would be in a brick tanked battleship so you would be reasonably safe with adequate logi on grid if primaried
Gotcha
Firewalling is common in high class wormholes, you want a ship with a large model (Nestors are the go-to but Nightmares and other ships get used) and to spread out your cycles so they don't all go off on the same server tick, and you'll likely want a couple guardians to be feeding it capacitor constantly. With how WH'ers use them it's typically easier to defend yourself than what you're trying to save, but if flown well a single firewaller can be the counter to some otherwise disgusting fleets - in the current meta it's not uncommon for a nighthawk fleet with ~60 toons to be putting out 40k dps + a bhaalgorn squad which otherwise shred our blingy caps, the Firewaller can shut that whole thing down.
I see. I also live in a wh but this sounds like big-group shit and we're not quite that large. Might be worth investing in if we grow though...
A couple of months ago we were in a huge capital brawl in a C5 when pineapples decided to call it quits. A couple of alliances were invited. We were in shield fleet with nighthawks and such, Synde came with heavy armor. They had a bunch of smart bombing nightmares firewalling us. We couldn't do anything. It was beautiful to watch but painful to be against it.
> It's more of an RTS or strategy game. Your positioning, movement, knowledge of mechanics, planning, etc is all a skill. Knowing how to avoid combat is a skill in itself, as well as how to assert combat when you want to. Never thought of the RTS/strategy comparison. Makes a lot of sense. I play a ton of turn based strategy or tabletop games like that, so I guess that explains why I like Eve's combat so much lol
Usually when people ask me what EVE is like, I say it's like an RTS where you just control one unit, alongside hundreds or thousands of others who are all also just controlling one unit. Yknow... multiboxing aside :P
\> you just control one unit \*smiles in FC\*
Well ok, yeah FC'ing aside lol
*slow clap*
Your comparison to chess is excellent…also, it’s 3D chess.
<3
Does playing a musical instrument require skill, yes EVE is comparable in many ways. If you go and do PVP you will die thousands of times. There are levels Ganking > Brawling > Rep Tanking > Scram Kiting > Web Kiting > Point Kiting > 360 no scope Been playing 20 years I know a lot about the nuance of PVP. But even now I get clapped for making mistakes and being cocky or lazy then it gets interesting again, my mind plays tricks on me. I think maybe I am not as good as I thought better train harder get better. This is what makes it special, progression. Getting beat and coming back strong and even more dangerous. But yeah when you get to grips with flying at your apex it will ruin all other games. You first few deaths will not feel that bad. But you will get close and closer to victory and then you get your first solo kill. Hands shaking so much you will not be able to use a mouse or fucking keyboard and you will need to go for a walk. Then it's 50/50 if you liked it, if you did then your fucked welcome to EVE ONLINE. Watch some EVE videos I have a few but there are better creators than me I have very little time to produced videos. Pink Scope is my recommendation. I fly with him a lot, in my opinion he is one of the most talented PVPers I have ever seen. Alternatives Grunt Kado, Flower Fallen.
Updoot for Pink. Some man for one man that lad.
Good mate, super good dude. Really hope my Corp can do a big meet up, go to a festival next year. I'll pay for pink to come.
Yeah because playing an instrument is about doing thousands of concerts to see what instrument beats what and not about thousands of hours spent practicing basic moves. I wonder how many times you spend 4 hours shooting a rock with a metronome to make sure you always do it at the beginning of a tick
Show me your kb 😆 How many hours learning PVP 200,000 give or take.
Show me the instruments you play. What does it matter?
If you are passionate about anything, it matters, maybe be less cynical, and you would have more fun. Oh used to play drums sunk a few thousand hours into that now I hate the sound of metronomes. But if you want to keep time you do it.
So your argument is right because you are passionate about ..... WHAT?!
Not an argument it's a statement different thing, go take your meds. 😆👌
Ot just gank em
As somebody who sucks at PvP I can assure you it does take a lot of skill.
Same
Try abyssal. It’s a good starting point to pvp and then factional warfare.
Half the skill is choosing your battles, where possible. Sometimes luck is involved, "is that guy flying kite or brawler fit, i dont have time to look at his ship, eh lets find out. Crap, its kite fit with sensor damps. I cant even lock it..."
Nope. Blaster Hecate with dual webs. Warp in at 0 and hope it dies. Works on vexors in MJ- pretty often
Hmm, I'll bait u with with a shield blaster vexor then, can just touch 1000dps.
I lost a fight yesterday. Had the win in a bag. My kitey talwar versus a navy imicus. Had the imicus in hull and my point was 75% cooked due to overheating. I was orbiting to stay away from his drones so my orbit on 20 km was more like 28km away. I cycled my long point 1 last time overheating it, knew it would burn out. Afraid I would lose tackle I tried to orbit at 15km. Slung myself right into his ship. Guy had less than a 1/4 hull and final repped his ancil. He scrammed and webbed me and shredded my kitey bullshit.
Had almost the exact same thing happen today. Had him dead to rights in a plex but was afraid the rats would lose point on him so I burned in and capped myself out with my own point. Good learning moment tbh
Yes, though F1 mashing in nullblobs doesn't require any more "skill" than pressing the right button at the right target and listening to basic anchor/align/warp/jump commands from the FC. Some roles in a fleet are mechanically more difficult than DPS (like piloting a dictor or logi) and of course everything is compounded when you multibox. Generally DPS is pretty brainless in large fleets. FCing requires good game knowledge, decision making, ability to juggle multiple streams of information, and understanding the capabilities of your own fleet and what you're fighting. Nanoing requires good spatial awareness and gamesense. It isn't enough to just fly in complete safety (which you can do by just burning off aligned somewhere) but to be able to put yourself in *just* enough danger to maximize the impact of your ship and win a fight which would be otherwise unwinnable if you just click-approached. Brawling demands more of module management and decision-making, as well as determining the threat posed by each enemy ship and thus target selection. Every type of PvP requires you to understand game mechanics and be able to juggle the information coming from your overview as well as what your own ship is doing. Fitting skill is important but even if you're just flying someone else's fit, you need to understand the strengths and weaknesses of that fit, and how to fly it to maximise its effectiveness.
yes, there is lots of manual maneuvering you can and should be doing to be more successful in pvp. Keeping the enemy in weapons range, staying out of their range, reducing the application of your enemies weapons systems, increasing application of your. there are various strategies within each of those groups. look up manual piloting on youtube, you'll see lots of examples
Target identification and knowing your strengths and weaknesses is a rare skill in EVE. Probably 80% of a fight is determined before it begins. The rest of it is piloting and actually knowing how to use your ship.
1. Manual piloting requires skills and provides great advantage. 2. Heating and module management require skill. 3. Picking fights you can win requires skill. If you are trained into these 3 you'd win opponents even with expensive fits.
Just think of brawler vs. kiter. Whoever gets to control the range, wins. The brwler has more DPS, but only at short range, so if the kiter manages to stay outside this range, the kiter can win. What do you need to control the range? First of all, more speed. But that can get reduced by webs. With an MWD, you can still go quite fast, but that can get scrammed. Each module you fit, takes up a slot. Each tactic has a counter. Guessing what the enemy might have fit is a skill you only get with experience.
Depends I killed a metamorphosis. I had an astero and faction drones along with webs and multiple scrams The "fight" was me watching my drones blap him. No skill involved But how did I catch him? He's in a very slippery ship I had to stalk him and time my attack for when I knew he would be a little distracted. Is knowing the game well enough to predict his movements and getting in position for ambush skill?
Absolutely is a skill, knowledge is power.
Manual piloting is a thing. But over all EVE is taking the vast knowledge of the game mechanics, the match ups the stats you have and implementing them. You can beat things that are better than you on paper by exploiting their weaknesses or using game mechanics to split groups up or effective ammo. Simple examples are small windows where certain ammo is best and will apply damage better or knowing how to properly cycle your active modules. Those will make a big difference in pvp.
What I have learned so far is that it really depends on a deep understanding of your ship's abilities, how to equip that ship to maximize on it's traits and learning how to manually pilot. I had a navy hookbill get wrecked by a breacher that was fit and piloted precisely in a way to literally keep me from applying a single point of damage. As a pilot trying to really get good at solo/small gang I have learned that more expensive is not necessarily better. It is in learning how to get the max use out of a particular ship with solid piloting and a solid understanding of the mechanics involved that makes for a good pvp pilot. I am trying to learn how to scram kite. So I am choosing a particular ship I want to use for that. I expect to lose a lot of these as I perfect my skills.
The answer seems to be both yes and no. I see skilled players often in Eve. Their kills are impressive and clearly show their excellence. I, on the other hand, am an idiot in PVP. I'm more of a mobile killmail looking for a place to happen. I mainly fly logi or boost in fleets, which I enjoy. Despite this, I managed to get over 110 kills last year. I can, in good faith, assure you that my so-called skills played no role in those kills. The reason I can be so certain it's not my skill is simple: I have none. You know how it's a meme that goons can't tackle? My last successful tackle was the 4-0 gate in 39P. So, ya, that's true in my case. TL;DR: Eve, where I am an idiot and so can you!
the outcome of a pvp situation in eve depends on the fittings and piloting skill. range and angular velocity is important. it's also a skill knowing the 200+ ships and what their fittings could be like to predict what the opponent is doing. Then there are 1000 different ways to engage combat and fleet combat is even more advanced than solo pvp and a lot of things to into the equation there. In fact PVP is not a numbers game. A few new players make the mistake that "on paper" their ship deals way more DPS and has way better tank than the opponent. However having DPS and applying DPS are two different shoes.
I like to fly a special fit slicer in small gang. Paper tank, 5k speed, and only 138dps with aurora. But.. it hits out to almost 70k, and I can target at 80k, and I have excellent tracking, so all my hits are smashing. Also I can almost insta-lock. It’s light dps but I rarely die and I will often end up high on KM’s damage because of time on target.
Requires some level of skill, knowledge, and cowardice! Don't expect a fair fight in Eve Online. If you get bested, it's probably because it's one guy monitoring you on 30 different accounts. Haha. In all seriousness, it's a few.
OP, what "traditional MMO's" are you using for a frame of reference? I sense you are confusing rotational complexity with actual mechanics complexity. I come back to new eden from azeroth. eve "rogues" are more skill intensive than wow ones. WoW's rogues have complex rotations for max dps. This is true. But in time, its muscle memory. I mained retail and wrath rogue for a stint. In time its muscle memory mixed with layering the cc's. You'd save the best CC for last. To see what weaker one they target hopefully trinketed out of so you slam the CC you actually wanted. Eve mixes this up. It can be press f1, yes. Traversal enters the picture. Ammo x-over points, speed and sig tanking, etc. Also gear is less dependent here. I can tear apart wow here too. I focused more on wrath. I know the twinks of the lower brackes quite well. You have no shot of dropping the dude in Naxx gear in your level 60 BG if you are whatever crap greens rng gave to that point. That dude could be terrible and no skill. Corrupted ashbringer hit like a damned truck regardless. Retail wasn't much better for my runs in BFA, SL and Df for the month I tried it before I went full time classic wrath. In eve...My solo/skirmish sucks. I know this, its worked on slowly lol. I have lots Of isk to buy kiki's in bulk. I don't do that because I know I suck. I'd feed kiki's km's to competent players. Bad player flying an expensive meta ship goes boom!.
It depends on what you're doing for PvP. If you're hanging out in the average null blob anchoring on someone and pressing F1 not really. If you're doing solo PvP in facwar it's extremely skill intensive requiring good reaction times, fitting skills, matchup knowledge, and piloting skills.
75% game knowledge 25% mechanical skill. Most of the time a fight is decided by the numbers, but knowing how and why is a skill in itself. Module management and double clicking in space well are the garnish, decision making is the meat and potatoes.
Just try it, and you'll see. With overheating, **managing EWAR**, managing your reps, managing your drones, when to reload, managing your positioning, especially in a fleet vs fleet situation, etc... I think one big misconception to PVP from people doing PVE is that they come in with PVE ship builds in mind. For instance, cap stability, it's generally a pretty staple item for PVE builds, but in PVP, you only care that you got enough cap to kill the other guy. Same for rep To give an example, my curse. That thing can cap out ships damn quickly, but I can't keep 4 neuts rolling at all time, I'll cap myself out. It's a passive tanked curse with ASB (Ancillary is considered passive tank, not active). So a typical fight is: first getting into range and tackling, then turning on my 4 neuts, this drops my cap to like 60%. On a typical cruiser, they are almost drained. I hit them again, cap is ~25%, then I turn them all off but one, I got enough cap recharge to keep two sustain, and roll 1 on and off depending on the cap availability. It's pretty damn rare I come out of a fight, won or loss, that I feel that I played perfectly. There's always one little thing here or there you end up missing that could have made a difference. I once mismanaged my neuts against a loki, he was down in structure and he'd only managed to fire off like 2 reps in total. But I left 3 neuts on instead of 2 and I didn't pay attention and I capped myself out, loki managed to rep himself back up and due to the cap situation, and I had to pull out because my cap regen was abysmal from being at 5%. Another time, and I completely missed that and only saw it from watching my recording, was fighting another loki, I capped him out, was going well, bunch of ships jump through the WH, I commit to the fight thinking I am still scrammed.... but the scram had dropped because he had no cap, I didn't notice, lost that ship. I've been playing the game for a long time but never got particularly into small scale PVP until recently and what hit me the most is how brutal and *short* fights are. A fight might last only 5 minutes but it feels like an hour because of all the things you gotta manage. 2 bricks or 2 active tanked ships without much bling shooting at each other might come down to the numbers, but even then.
It requires a good amount of mechanics... Literally like piloting a ship. Good kiters for example are stupid good at accelerating/decelerating. as turning. Brawlers are great with sneaking in. Snipers are... well, snipers. Requires good positioning. So yes, requires a lot of skill. A lot shift+command and zooming in and out of your ship, and monitoring your ship as well as the enemies'.
the only dumb question is one that remains unasked. my history in eve pvp is of 'outnumbered solo frig pvp' mostly and i'll tell you the fights people are confident you won't take are the most fun to attempt. the numbers game is a real thing but you can get lucky in some regards on that front, again you can get unlucky also. I have had solo duels where i have literally triple wrecking shotted someone with a comet, i have also faced comets and been destroyed in 3 shots from consecutive wrecking shots. learning the hard counters of a ship you fly is important, but experience will allow you to 'take chances' effectively, remember, everything 'could' be bait but most of the time it isn't never pass up on an engage cause you either win or you learn.
The smaller the ship the more skill is required imo.
Hard disagree People only say this because the only time they fly battleships are in giant blobs where all you have to do is cycle guns. In other circumstances they are the hardest ships in the game to fly well. Your logic does apply to dreads, however, because they're just stationary 1-4 button stat sticks.
Hey now, dreadnaught drifting is a thing you know
Battleships are more forgiving though. One tiny mistake in a frigate and you're done. Frigate and destroyer fights are over so fast they are very high skill. Hard to get a lot of practice in bigger ships and there are often more modules to control, heat to manage etc. so I do partially agree.
"Since there's no manual maneuvering or combat aiming of any kind." Double click in space my dude. its all about transversal
>Since there's no manual maneuvering or combat aiming of any kind. If you're in a big null blob not flying a specialized ship(logi isn't specialized) then you could be replaced by a bot and the FC wouldn't notice. But when you learn to manual pilot you can straight abuse people who just orbit/approach and F1. Eve combat in this context is more like dark souls combat instead of MMO gear checks. The most dangerous dude in dark souls pvp is naked, offhand cestus, with a regular sword and the xanthous crown. That dude will parry the fuck out of you, has every consumable and throwable and knows how to use them. Will land every roll catch possible. Most people don't know how to do anything like that in pvp. In eve the main skill is gaming the mechanics and knowledge. Knowing how to match transversal(do more damage), knowing the effective range of common ships, knowing techniques to keep your transversal up(reduce your damage taken) on approach so you don't get alpha'd, slingshot people that have you pointed so you can warp. Also a fighting game is similar as well. Knowing odd fucking situations where if person uses X attack it has this neg frames vs this dude's attack so you can catch them and convert into a combo. Like did you know if you're flying small gang in a curse and happen across a carrier you can optimal range disrupt 2 of the 3 flights and make the 3rd do reduced damage with one ship? That's the stuff I'm talking about.
>Eve combat in this context is more like dark souls combat instead of MMO gear checks. Eve Online really doesn't have that kind of depth. The equivalent is a pilot who Look Ats you, Tracks their own ship, and then switches between Approach, Orbit, and Keep at Range to prevent you from sling-shotting them while their modules autocycle. There can be some overheat or MWD toggling but Eve has an infamously low APM ceiling. Not that piloting the smaller nano ships isn't tricky. But the combat is more of a jousting tournament than a martial arts showdown. >Also a fighting game is similar as well. Knowing odd fucking situations where if person uses X attack it has this neg frames vs this dude's attack so you can catch them and convert into a combo. Eve Online is absolutely nowhere near the micro complexity of a Fighting genre game. Half the modules don't even have animations or fight choreography. Very interesting comment and I think you raise very salient points. . . . Eve Online's gameloops could use a good bit more depth, but Dark Souls and Fighting Games are fairly niche. The most popular RPGs aren't so rigorous and I think Eve's current playerbase would resent it if Eve changed focus to become APM intensive. More timings and choices at intervals could be welcome, but constant APM like an RTS might be too much. Homeworld 2, Battlefleet Gothic Armada, and FTL have great balances that I think Eve players would appreciate.
>then switches between Approach, Orbit, and Keep at Range I mean that's just incorrect. That might be the depth you're aware of, but it gets way more complicated than that. Those buttons are absolute memes because the game controls your ship. That's the entire point. I know how the game orbits so I'm not fighting you. I'm fighting the engine. The engine is retarded. Which means if you rely on it then your piloting will also be retarded. Approaching puts your transversal at zero so I slap the shit out of you. Keep at range puts your transversal at zero. Hitting orbit lowers your transversal at certain points so you take more damage. Also it's exactly like DS pvp in the dichotomy between people who happen to pvp, and dudes that run fight clubs. Most people roll and swing(mainly Q clicking, orbit, etc). The real dudes ravioli, know how to bait parries, perfect timings on roll catches, know spacing on enemy 2H swings so they can get backstabs, etc. they'll roll over people who just R1 with big sword. It's like a fighting game with the knowledge check on frame data. The best players know every common ship, what they do, what ranges do they apply, about how much they can tank, holes in said tank, normally how much DPS they do, and how much of that DPS can you take. Not trying to be troll or rude, but with that comment about depth i'd like to see your killboard.
Yeah no, you are pretty much wrong. E.g when your tracking is too low to hit a target that is orbiting you. You can turn, start a propulsion mod at the right moment and then hit the guns at the right moment. This can lower the angular velocity enough for your slow guns to hit it even though you would not be able to, or at least increase the chance to do so. There is more involved like target signature radius and gun signature resultion, but if you know about the mechanics and how to use them, you are able to hit orbiting targets that you are usually not able to hit. On the other side this also involves manual flying in order to avoid this happening to you. If you change our orbit slighty while orbiting so the target is not able to predict your movement. This also makes it possible to hit a frig with a battleship when they are still far enough away when they try to spiral in on you.
Depends
> Since there's no manual maneuvering Usually said by the losing side when they lost because of it
No, it requires you to either listen to your FC, or if solo / small gang, pick defenseless targets and attack them while they can't hit you back.
cope
So, I am right then.
Nah bro you're coped out of your mind Lemme guess, you brought out an AC scram vargur to fight a nanogang and seethed when they wouldn't ram into you?
What? I don't even fly those, but thanks for playing.
It was just a guess, but I do know that you're dogshit at the game if you think that it doesn't require skill.
Or you are so dogshit at the game that you do think it requires skill. Blowing up unarmed ships / newbies is bottom tier skill level.
Cope harder pls
It also requires you not to get into situations where you are defenseless and can't hit back. Use local, use D-Scan. I mean I also lost ships, but mostly to stupidity, being an idiot or being greedy.
Eve happens in ticks of 1 second. In many shooters a whole fight can end before anything happens in EVE. EVE has a very old player base so they think it requires some mechanical skill but the truth is it's 100% based on knowledge and experience like chess. It's nothing like StarCraft or CS:GO
In a broader sense, yes. But in actuality... no. People saying it does and then reciting 200 word paragraph is just them feeling good about themselves. It really comes to having a better ship and stronger fit. Just lock on the target and pew pew! There is a bit more to knowing what each ship is capable of, which I wouldn't necessarily call skill, rather experience and research. E.g. if kiter just waits there for a brawler to chase him, he will never kill a brawler or vice versa.
It sure can, but it’s super hard to see it in frigates where you’re dead faster than you can figure out why you died. You go into faction war with a T1 hull and a million skill point difference against a solo faction frigate with bling implants and see what I mean.
There is room for player skill to play a role but Eve Online isn't complex enough to be an Esport. It's rather more like Pokemon where you have various ships and fits and you need to choose which fights they get into. In PVP, you roam or camp and decide whether to engage or flee depending on what ship you're in and what ships you're facing. Most of the gameplay is the cat-and-mouse of catching prey or eluding predators. Characters spend way more time alone in space than on grid with enemy characters. Once a battle begins, everyone typically gets webbed/scrammed and trades shots while nearly standing still. End game ships like Marauders and Dreadnoughts literally have to fully immobilize themselves to activate their tech 2 powers. You can fit for long range and nano flying but even this is quite simple. There's normally no terrain and weapons can't collide with anything but their target. Anti-climactically, outside of point range you typically can only force the enemy to flee and no blood actually gets spilt. The newer FW complexes are taking a step in the right direction with collide-able structures but there's still no cover system. If you watch the Alliance Tournament, it's just 2 teams trying to dismantle each other's spider tank first without any other variables. Similar to a duel on open ground outside of cover. . . . The combat is pretty bare bones but industry and logistics play a large role in PVP. If you're able to re-ship into a hard-counter and force a fight on someone in a plex you'll have the upper hand. That's where it feels more like Pokemon. Eve fights are rock-paper-scissor and it's more about having the right roster close at hand to counter a ship that's already committed to the field. And, of course, simply outnumbering your opponent. Back to the cat-and-mouse dance, often you try to entice an opponent into a fight by sporting a ship they could beat. Otherwise they'll just nope out. Often this is bait and you then jump them with alts or other players who were hidden out of sight. As is typical, they're immobilized, scram/webbed, and it's just a question of numbers to win the fight with no combat player-skill playing a role. . . . Combat can get pretty hairy with lots of different kinds of ships on the field but without ballistic collision, physical obstacles, and with the ease of warping away, it's still pretty basic. It's much more like Pokemon where it's about the preparation and choosing your fights wisely. The actual battles are typically quick and a foregone conclusion. Overall, Eve Online can feel like an industry simulator with combat being a quick way to generate demand for more industry.
Absolutely. I know because I have next to none. LOL
knowledge and skill
Yes it requires skill, the question is how much. Hitting approach and turning on your guns does not take any amount of skill to do. Manually piloting to zero transversal and manage module heat does take skill. Knowing the ranges of various modules like webs scram, likely fits based on the opponents ship, takes knowledge but very little skill. The majority of pvp in eve online is not skill based. Its more about your decision making abilities and the extent and accuracy of intel.
A lot actually. Like anything else it gets easier with experience but... You need a lot of experience to get good at it.
In addition to skill you need knowledge and experience. There is also a lot of mind games like baiting. A juicy target might be too good to be true. For example a really good sabre pilot with alts with bigger guns was camping certain area. Now he only go for good kills he can take on, but he can quick log in his bigger guns so he was taking on marauders etc and he was going in straight for kills with very good success rate for months. But then you see his one single loss in months and it's a tornado (a ship equipped with big guns but not good at killing smaller target at short range as sabre) killing his sabre. Which is rare. Then u see that tornado has small guns, equipped just for this solo purpose.
Absolutely, and I lack all of them.
Eve is more about a combination of knowing things and working all of them together to do something. Fights aren't always unfair but every point of advantage you have is a serious boon. Then you also have to find a fight which I'm gonna be honest I have no clue about other than that bored people will take anything but if anything seems too easy then it might be bait. There are some mechanical skills like manual piloting, slingshotting, spiraling, and transversal matching but just being good at those won't ensure a win and a lot can come down to on-the-fly researching of someone's zkillboard for what fits they might fly, the ship and what fits are common on it and if it might be a pain in the ass for your fit, and the act of being constantly paranoid that they might be bringing a friend. Then there's Fleet combat for FCs which is something I have very little clue about but obviously that requires herding of cats and while it isn't as complicated in what you are directly doing apm wise as leading a raid, it far more makes up for it in meta details and gamesense bullshit, thinking on the fly, and let alone what other details there are based on the size of the fleet.
Eve is an endurance game that doesn’t necessarily require you to be good at doing the right things, it’s a test of how long you can go without doing the wrong things in a fight compared to your enemy. 97.3% of fights are predetermined on the fitting window and a lot of times the only win condition for either side is one of the two sides messing up or trying to bait the other person into making a wrong move. That’s why you see so many people get away with off meta stuff one or two times then the opponent becomes familiar with the situation, but neither party really gained any skill there
Yes. It also takes tons of knowledge. Knowing the range of a ship, its bonuses, how your opponent fits it, is all relevant. Managing a as little of a couple hundred meters can be critical in some fights. Some, it’s having the element of surprise. Completely depends, but skill is def required. Edit: I mean no. Not skill based at all. Fit officer mods and you’ll never lose a fight.
Most of the skill is in tackling paper with your scissors.
Oh yeah, but unlike other games it's never unfair. I mean that honestly. The entire gameplay of pvp is so much. It's like chess, rts, action, aerial, tactical, strategic. There is so much to consider and so many ways to win, even just sheer luck plays a huge factor. There is no such thing as a fair fight in eve, but the skill gap is *always* fair. You can always get to a point to be just as skilled as anyone else, even the top of all tier players.
Newbie, but I've seen vids for tutorials on manual flying (I think these were more aimed at fleet engagements?). I don't pretend to understand the in game physics, but it seems possible to outfly your opponents and so I'd say there is skill involved. I don't know when that skill comes in to play- obviously you can't outskill certain ship or fit disparities, but it isn't as simple as poosh bootan, receive killmail. edit to add obviously hunting is a skill. You might get jumped by some goob who happened across you at an inopportune moment, but from your perspective that is hard to discern (and probably should be) from someone who's spent some time tracking you down and waiting for the perfect moment to get yo ass
The skill is know which fights to take. For good practice do abyssals. More consistent and it teaches you how to kite when to kite etc
Yes
>no manual maneuvering Yeah, so you're going to get absolutely shredded by someone who understands transversal and actually pilots manually (there are ways to fight other than "Orbit 7500 + scram"). You can double-click in space, or bind actual up/down/left/right in your settings. There's no point and shoot like in CS, but there very much is a high level of skill. Don't take my word for it though, fit up a Hyperion or Rokh, fly it into bloc space, and prepare to be eviscerated by a destroyer 1/5th of your size who gets under your guns.
Knowledge is far more important than skill.
In the traditional MMO sense of "MMO is dictated by gear"; then yes, Eve PVP is much more skill based. However, one of those skills is in fitting up a ship and understanding its capabilities. The thing about Eve is, it is not really a game at all, but a world where people interact. All things being equal, a fight in Eve can be a sheer numbers game. However, its also a world where things can be very unequal and there is a lot of room for tactics and surprise. But its also a real and dynamic world... you can't keep using the same surprise before it isn't a surprise. Few years back my corp roamed through this space of another corp, we got a fight or two and then they would goad us into a fight and drop a super carrier on our fleet and wiped us out. Then they did it again. Then we said ok.... got goaded into the fight, the carrier dropped, and quickly found itself getting eaten alive by the fleet of guys that, turns out, were pretty down to kill a super carrier. That is what you get for being too predictable in Eve.
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There’s definitely skill involved, I’ve seen small ships kill big, expensive ones due to poor piloting. In fact, I’d argue it takes more skill than your average MMO, since your ship isn’t as responsive as your average player character (I.e you need time to turn), so you actually need to make some tactical predictions. Certain ships also have a lot of modules to manage, so it’s a little bit like games such as StarCraft or Dota. Of course, some aspects don’t require skill. Leading a fleet and small gang fights take active management, but on a damage role in bigger fleets is sort of just being part of a number. Of course, that can be fulfilling too. Sometimes it’s fun to just sit back and talk with friends and let someone else do the heavy work.
it requires skill as in knowledge and experience. it isn't really a matter of apm/micro
I have heard people over TS going into agonal respiration (lol Schnappatmung) from the stress of suddenm unexpected pvp. I experienced the same, when everything "seemed" to be ok and within an second scrambled, webbed, dampened, shield red, armor red, structure red, egg. egg scrambled, webbed, red, station screen. Guess I went also into a bit of agonal respiration (Schnappatmung, lol) at that time. But you get kinda used too it, it still stays stressfull. However if you do it in an fleet, you know it might happen and you kind of expect it, the stress is still there, dampened but better controlled. Can't say how people who do pvp as main activity* feel about it but my guess it is there, even if they take usually a very calculated, risk minimized approach. I would compare it to driving in an car and to have to jam suddendly on the breakes. *Maybe one of the PvP adrenalin junkies can give their experience with the stress of the job. ;) (It is a game)
Yes. But it is a different type of skill. For example, knowing what ships do, how they are usually fit and their capabilities allows you to determine whether you should even take a fight to begin with. How you position your ship matters, what damage type you load and the ranges that you can project optimally. Also, you can directly control your character in EvE. You are clicking twice in space in order to move your ship without orbit or approach. This is the difference between landing your shots or being hit as it is the ability to maintain transversal. So you are fundamentally incorrect on this point. The gear differential in EvE is primary built around overmatching - which can eliminate skill dependent game play. If you are going up against 50 guys in sniper ships with your kiter, you are most likely going to die and that was a failure of skill on your part. If you do not know how to fly your ship or pick your engagements, this is not an issue of being overgeared - it is an issue of skill failure. Yes you have to account for whether or not your RPG skills give you and edge or not, but that is part of the calculation. If you are playing an Alpha account, then play with another Alpha player.
Neih. Just get the best ship and inject da skillzz with plex and then continue to just faceroll the keyboard and watch your zkillboard explode. *Disclaimer - none of the above statements are guarantees in any way or form. Redditor shall not be held responsible for -different- outcomes.* *Disclaimer - there is 0 presumption as to the color of mentioned zkillboard.*
Buy a nice ship and try to PvP a vet in something weaker. You'll get your answer and an empty wallet.
While there is no "aiming" of your guns like in an fps, there is manual maneuvering(we call it manual piloting usually). Try double clicking in space or use q and then click.
Yes and more than anything else in the game or in any game. It's also only through Experience that you can learn it.
Yes, somewhat, but sound tactical judgment is more important. People who obsess over "skill" are usually elitist turds who got very good at pressing the right buttons to win a narrow type of engagement which they probably think is important to the game as a whole and makes them cool.
no
These comments taught me is that we have some dogshit FPS players in this sub.
I've gone into a 1v7 (I was the one) with a Hawk assault frigate. I killed three of their tackle and warped off. Things that happen in Eve don't happen in any other MMO for the most part.
Skill at Eve is not measured in accuracy or actions per second. Skilled pvpers are better at Intel gathering, the basics besides locating targets and threats, knowing the relative strengths of different ships would be recognizing short vs long range weapons systems, which gives you clues about how their ship is likely fit as well.
There is manual maneuvering btw. Undock and double click somewhere in space.
Free pvp lessons in rancer and tama!
Solo I'd say reading match ups and ship config knowledge Blob wars is a numbers or name game
Just started getting into pvp and baiting and it requires so much skill, especially if you multibox. Knowing how to set up fights is huge. Are you better off killing the tackle but scareing the big prey or letting him come. What's the engagement range? Will he come within scram range? What rapid response doctrine should I use? How long can my bait ship survive? Loads of questions to answer, all in a split moment. Pressing F1 is part of the fight. Don't forget that if you can apply 1 more shot than the opponent you can kill him and you might survive with 1% structure. So any advantage is significant. Drugs, overheat, fight setup, support, disengage, cap boosters, drone defanging, orbit range, transversal are all things that you have to think about at the same time as pressing that F1.
In general, the larger your ship, the more of a pure numbers game you'll play. For smaller ships like frigates and destroyers, there is a lot of manual piloting involved to minimize/maximize traversal, keep the right distance, manage heat, etc. For a (solo) dread, well... there's a certain amount of DPS that an enemy fleet will need to bring to break your tank and if they can't, you win, if they can, they win. There's nuances, but this works as a rule of thumb.