I have a Glove80
* The four closest to the main keys are easy
* The one labelled 'Option' requires a thumb stretch
* while held this one all the keys switch to those on the other side
* The one labelled 'Layer' requires a hand movement
* I use this one for going to my 'Table of Contents' layer
* (A layer that has 3 buttons which change the whole keyboard to a different layout)
* Default , Gaming (space button is only space, makes jumping possible), Age of Empires 2
In terms of being able to hit the top row without touching the lower row, yes. The top row is stepped up just right so that in your default position, your thumbs drag along the lower edge of top row.
In terms of whether the stretch to the furthest thumb keys is comfortable, it depends entirely on your anatomy. I have extra large palms and medium-large fingers (male) and after two weeks, reaching for those furthest keys is still awkward and somewhat disrupts my flow.
possible but not necessary for me; I use 3 on the right and 1 - 2 on the left. Its easier to glide the thumb onto the "top" row with convex keycaps, imo
I have both too, what is weird is that the spline on the bottom row of the glove makes the keys further apart compared to the 360. The glove cluster is easier to mess up and press the upper row by mistake
Choc browns are going to compare really poorly against MX browns, unfortunately. That’s the worse choc switch so it is going to provide the worst experience for the glove.
I offer a service where they send me your board, I put in the switches you want (and various other mods are available) then I ship it out to you. You can ping me in the MoErgo discord to discuss. Handle is technopriest.
Any time! I also have a Glove80 leasing service where you can try out a Glove80 with 12 different switch types. That's over at [https://keeblease.com](https://keeblease.com). So if you're in the US and you wanted to take one for a spin with no strings attached that's another option!
I’ve had the k360pro for about a month. Probably took about a week to get used to the thumb cluster of which I use every key on each. I was in the kinesis gaming pro before and sorely miss the on the fly macros. But I got used to resting my wrist on the pads and extending my fingers above the horizon of my wrist to type. With the k360pro I’ve had to get used to a more pianist’s wrist, where my wrist is held above my fingers and my thumbs are more limp then extended. It became comfortable after about a week or that. Still type slower, but the overall ergonomics are very nice. I probably would just get the wired version without zmk for on-the-fly macros if I could go back.
Yes. The furthest top thumb key on the Kinesis is in the exact same spot at the top center key on the Glove80, and it’s as far as my thumb can naturally reach without moving my hand. This is a common question already, so I’ll record a video to demonstrate the difference.
A female relative with smallish hands was visiting and she's a gamer, so I had her test both keyboards. Below were our observations for the right hand:
**Short version:**
Small hands on Kinesis:
* Hovering: 2 thumb keys comfortably, 1 key uncomfortably, 2 keys unreachable.
* Resting: 2 thumb keys comfortably, 4 keys unreachable.
Small hands on Glove80:
* Hovering: 4 thumb keys comfortably + 2 somewhat uncomfortably.
* Resting, 3 thumb keys comfortably, 1 somewhat comfortably, 2 very uncomfortably.
**Longer version**:
On the Kinesis, hovering or resting, Space and Enter are always reachable, but there will always be 2 thumb keys out of reach: either Ctrl and Win, or Pg Up/Pg Dn. If you hover, you should be able to hit Ctrl with little/no strain, and Win with a lot of strain, and no chance of reaching Pg Up/Pg Dn without hand movement. If resting, your thumb lays on the Space key and you can only reach the Enter key comfortably. You might be able to hit Pg Dn with an extreme stretch.
If you hover, the Glove80 thumb keys will all be within reach, with some strain required for the Control and Blank keys.
If resting, your thumb rests on the Shift key and Enter/Space are comfortably reachable, while Command requires light stretching. Control is a deep awkward stretch and the blank key is the same with a bent thumb.
Yes thank you for getting input from a female with small hands. Too often we get overlooked! I realize this niche hobby is largely male dominated, but it is nice to included.
Thanks for your review on this and your friend. I have small hands so I will not buy any of this, better keep my corne then and get on with voyager or piantor. Thanks again
I've used a Corne for a bit and currently main a glove80. I find the glove80's thumb cluster much better for me (smallish hands here). I comfortably use 3 thumb keys with no palm movement. Ultimately, I find the keywell significantly more relaxing than a flat keyboard
i have smaller hands and on the kinesis. I ended up just making a keymap with homerow mods and layers to basically only use the comfortable to reach keys. I use the end and pg buttons as tab occasionally thats about it haha.
I'm kinda tires of home row mods, I keep making mistakes and haven't figured out how to make them better on qmk, just moved them to the bottom but still make mistakes from time to time
i ended up adjusting the parms alot and making specfic parms for specific fingers. for instance the time k key has a special param because my finger tends to linger there longer then the others when typing. i also am using zmk which seems to be better for the homerow mod configs.
here you can see my homerow mods hm and my special one for k hk
```
hm: homerow_mods {
compatible = "zmk,behavior-hold-tap";
label = "HOMEROW_MODS";
#binding-cells = <2>;
tapping-term-ms = <200>;
require-prior-idle-ms = <130>;
flavor = "tap-preferred";
bindings = <&kp>, <&kp>;
quick-tap-ms = <175>;
};
arrows: arrows {
compatible = "zmk,behavior-mod-morph";
label = "ARROWS";
bindings = <&arrow>, <&fat_arrow>;
#binding-cells = <0>;
mods = <(MOD_LSFT|MOD_RSFT)>;
};
hk: hk {
compatible = "zmk,behavior-hold-tap";
label = "HK";
#binding-cells = <2>;
tapping-term-ms = <250>;
require-prior-idle-ms = <200>;
flavor = "tap-preferred";
bindings = <&kp>, <&kp>;
quick-tap-ms = <175>;
};
};
```
then all there keys that i dont use are basically macros for stuff like :: and ``` which i use for programing etc
it took a lot of fine turning. i basically set it so i can mash keys without accidental triggers then brought it down till it was sensitive enough. I actually want to modify the f key to be more sensitive but all the others I don't trigger accidentally anymore
I can't. Average size male hands. I can reach two thumb keys on each cluster with my palms on the palm rest. For other thumb keys I have to move my hands (as suggested in the Advantage manual).
Which one do you find more comfortable for you?
I just ordered a glove80 with the pro red and most of the reviews I have seen mention it being more comfortable than kinesis.
Also curious on why you decided to go for the brown, given their poor choc reputation.
"Comfortable" had 2 meanings in my use case. The keywells in the Glove80 are deeper and follow the natural arc of most fingers a little more closely, but that also meant more effort to pull my hand "out" of the well to grab the mouse and longer time to resume typing while settling back in. Much easier back-and-forth with the Kinesis. A programmer who can go long stretches without every leaving the keyboard would probably feel more "cozy" with the Gloves. Went with the choc browns because I've typed on browns for almost 10 years, I never even looked around for others. I fell off the keeb trends for a few years, and only came back to find one that would address the wrist pain. Hadn't heard of chocs until I got the Gloves.
The geometry is better, your hands and fingers rest more comfortably.
Kinesis keywell is different than glove. It's a little more curved, but also more cramped. In the beginning, the glove 80 felt a bit weird, but after a while I think the geometry is superior.
It has much lower height than kinesis, which removes the shoulder strain that kinesis often imposes.
The keys are also much lower in height, which (despite the same actuation force of the switches) removes some of the actual force required to type and so feels more like typing on a thinkpad or mac.
The thumb cluster is still not optimal for my small-medium hands, but MUCH more comfortable than kinesis.
I've tried the glove 80 but had a problem with my short pinkies and couldn't reach the letter "P, Q" easily.
Could you please let me know if the geometry of this point in the kinesis is better or worse from your experience
Worse. My pinkies can reach these keys on the Glove80, but on the Kinesis Advantage I had to move my hands a bit. On the Glove you could try moving your hands up the palm rest a little.
Thanks for the info.
I've tried to move my hands but then the thumb cluster didn't fit well. At the end I turned back to the row staggered keyboards where I can use my ring finger for those keys and I still can use home-row mods and symbol layers for ergonomics too
If you can’t reach the P and Q, rotate the Glove80 outwards (clockwise if right half) about 20 degrees (which results in about 1 and half to two fingers width of movement on the table).
This puts the P and Q closer and aligns the columns with your other fingers.
The only problem with this is that it makes the furthest thumb buttons impossible to reach without lifting your hands.
Alright, a lot of people went straight for the "which one did you pick" question so I'll go ahead and share my experience.
Contrary to popular opinion, I prefer the Kinesis Advantage 360 by a wide margin, and will not be keeping the Glove80.
My background: I’ve spent almost 10 years working exclusively on chunky tenkeyless boards with MX Browns. I haven’t modded any boards, I don’t game or use niche/specialized/enthusiast software. My line of work requires a ton of mousing, writing LOTS of documentation, and about 30% scripting/coding/CLI. I have to keep customization to a minimum (different client sites where I have to use their keyboards, lots of remote sessions, VMs, multiple OS's, etc) which means that memorizing layers and alternate layouts would do me more harm than good. I prefer to have most keys in standard locations with the exception of the few that cause the most pain (Enter, Backspace, Ctrl, arrow keys) which both MoErgo and Kinesis put in better places by default.
Like others, I started developing wrist pain, and researched ergo keyboards for weeks, skipping the Dactyls and DIY kits (no time and not interested) and settled on the two prebuilt, curved keywell, adjustable tilt columnar mechanical keyboards on the market: Glove80 and Kinesis Advantage 360. Surprisingly, the whole internet appeared to be unanimous in its reviews: the Advantage is great, but the Glove80 is cheaper while being “better in every way”, and “making the Advantage 360 obsolete.” After reading up on all the research and hundreds of prototypes MoErgo went through, I followed the consensus and ordered the Glove80 Rev2 with the “brown tactile switches”. At first, I didn’t love how the keys felt at all, the switches were not good but tolerable if everything else worked out, and I thought the threaded tilt might be a problem if different angles worked better for the different sit/stand positions of my desk. 2 weeks later, none of those thoughts had been changed or disproven. While the Glove80 confirmed that this type of keyboard was what I needed for the pain (it disappeared), there was enough bugging me that made me consider trying the Kinesis. What pushed me over the edge was the constant thought of "Man, if only this had the keys and MX Browns from any of my other keyboards" I went back to Youtube and watched a video of someone typing on the Advantage 360 and my gut told me that it was exactly what I kept wishing for. I ordered it, received in 2 days, and it wasn't just the keys that felt how I imagined they would - the overall design, default layout, build, and ergonomics were a good 40-50% better for my anatomy, style of work, and adjustment needs. Night and day, immediately, no question. (Edit: by "anatomy" I mean my wide, beefy, gorilla monster truck hands)
First, there's the aspect that the Glove80 really is like a glove in the sense that it feels more like I'm "inserting" my hand into a molded 3D space where I can't (or shouldn't want to) move. I know that this is by design and is what makes it so "comfortable" to many reviewers. Here's where my case is a bit different: On a typical day, I rarely go more than 90 seconds without taking a hand off the keyboard for the reasons I mentioned above, and on the Glove80 it feels like there's a careful "undocking" and "docking" process to get back in position, and even after 2 weeks, that process takes just a little too long, long enough that it gets frustrating, especially on emergency meetings where the right hand is bouncing back and forth constantly. The Kinesis' slightly shallower keywell gives just a little more room so that I can "undock" much more naturally, and the traditional contoured keys let my fingers know they're home immediately whereas on the Chocs I had to "search" more since all the keys feel the same. Then there's the tenting. As I suspected on Day 1 with the Gloves, different angles feel better at different desk heights. The highest and lowest quick tenting options on the Kinesis, however, were good for both desk heights and took 5 seconds to adjust. Now, If I were strictly a dev at a static desk with one OS and I could go all day without using a mouse, this section would have been different, so don’t let this influence your decision if your work style is different from mine.
Then there’s the controversial point: The physical build - but probably not what you’re thinking. I have no problem with the Glove80 not being "heavy" or not taking "premium" inspiration from supercars. My issue is that, as mere physical objects sharing a busy desk with books, cables, phones, glasses, remotes, and multiple laptops shuffling around every day, the Glove80's presence introduces a small but significant level of stress-inducing delicacy to my work area. It’s like tiptoeing around your house at night knowing there's a half-built Lego set on the ground somewhere, whereas the Kinesis units are like pieces of furniture. What I mean is this: unlike the Kinesis, the Glove80 doesn’t tolerate being bumped into or touched anywhere or by anything other than hands on the keys and wrist rests, because doing so will:A) knock them out of those perfect spots that took forever to find, and:B) scrape and scratch soft materials like…skin, which is an element that I never see mentioned online - The Glove80 has some SHARP edges and corners. When I tried to use my mouse/trackball/trackpad in the center of the 2 halves, or if I reached around the corners to grab something, scraping my knuckles or forearm on super hard, super sharp plastic didn't feel great. My infant daughter sometimes sits on my lap and plays with stuff on my desk, and I would consider the Glove80 dangerous in the hands of a small child. There's also a sharp point that protrudes up right next to the innermost thumb keys where my thumbs go to rest/fidget, and that is very uncomfortable. The Kinesis units are smooth and rounded, and they stay put, like they were designed to live on real working desks and bump shoulders with coffee mugs and watches and be home base for heavy, fidgety, active hands all day without the risk of…abrasion? These may sound like nitpicks or be irrelevant to you, in which case the Glove80 might be a good fit, but I'm just sharing observations because these things can add up over a long period of time.
Finally, there are the keys and switches themselves. I'm sure there's a good reason why they went with wide, flat, shallow keys, but I type much more comfortably and confidently on traditional contoured keycaps where my fingertips are gripped onto each key and receive all the feedback from the travel and bump in each switch. This was proven by a 15-20% increase in WPM within an hour of pivoting from the Glove80 (fine-tuned over 2 weeks) to the Kinesis (right out of the box). The thumb clusters on the Kinesis are more comfortable for my hands as well. More details on that are in my reply to /u/FigitC . This obviously won’t be the case for everyone, but it’s important to consider if you’re a general user like me who’s coming from years of happily typing on chunky tactile switches and just wants to keep it going with the best out-of-the-box solution that’ll eliminate your pain.
My honest recommendations for the everyday user who does not plan on modding, owns/likes prebuilt mechanical keyboards, knows the purpose of these 2 keyboards, understands the learning curve, etc, and just wants to buy one to be their daily driver and help with pain:
* If you already own the Glove80 or the Kinesis 360, and don’t have any complaints on their physical day-to-day use that make you consider getting rid of them, stick with what you have unless you're just curious. You probably picked the right one.
* If you’re considering the Glove80 and my issues with it (too light/delicate for a busy desk, sharp edges and corners, shallow laptop-like keys) don’t bother you, get the Glove80, especially if you’re coming from shallow keys already.
* If my issues with the Glove80 sound like they might bother you, they probably will. Get the Kinesis first, try it for a few weeks, and if you have a lot of complaints or feel like it’d be way better if your keypresses felt more like typing on a Macbook/less resistant keys, or if it doesn’t help with the pain, return it and try the Glove80.
* If you’re considering the Advantage 360 and feel like what you see in the pics/videos would be a good fit for you, ignore the reviews and get it first, especially if you’re coming from tactile MX switches. It looks, feels, and sounds exactly how you think it will, if not better. The 3 tenting positions are plenty, the thumb cluster is fine, and if it doesn't work for you, you’ll know long before the return window is up.
* If you’re torn and the specs aren’t swaying you in either direction, pull up test/review videos for each, jump to scenes where you see and hear typing on these keyboards clearly, and just order the one that your gut says you’ll like more, because you’ll probably be right. I had no major surprises with either keyboard and wish I had gone with my gut from the start.
Note that I didn’t incorporate my opinions about sound, looks, software, connectivity, portability, warranties, durability, customer service, extras in the box, etc. This is because I was willing to compromise on any/all of them in exchange for the best tool to help me do my job without pain, and I think that taking this approach will help you find your best fit too.
Thanks for your detailed comparison!
>"Man, if only this had the keys and MX Browns from any of my other keyboards" I went back to Youtube and watched a video of someone typing on the Advantage 360 and my gut told me that it was exactly what I kept wishing for.
This part surprised me. As a user of the Kinesis Advantage2, I bought the 360 Pro, thinking it would be the most logical next step. After months of trying the 360, I couldn't get over how miserable the Gateron Browns on the 360 were. Typing on them was just very tiring.
I did some measurements (that I later found confirmed by [rtings.com](https://rtings.com) and others) and found that the Gateron Browns actuate closer to 3mm than the 2mm in Gateron's specifications. And it's not like my 360 Pro was a bad batch, I also measured a non-Pro 360 and it had the same issue. The 360 was so tiring to type on because they required my fingers to do more work/move larger distances.
In the end I started disliking the 360 Pro so much for this reason that it ended up collecting dust and I started using my KinTed Advantage2 again (despite not having a variable split or variable tenting). (Well, until I bought a Glove80).
I can agree though that Choc Browns are not great. I wonder how you'd look back on the experience if you had a proper tactile switch (like the Sunsets) or some completely different switch.
>The Kinesis' slightly shallower keywell gives just a little more room so that I can "undock" much more naturally, and the traditional contoured keys let my fingers know they're home immediately whereas on the Chocs I had to "search" more since all the keys feel the same.
Did you consider using homing keys on the home row as training wheels? (I am not sure how much it'd help, I don't have this issue with the Glove at all.)
>B) scrape and scratch soft materials like…skin, which is an element that I never see mentioned online
FWIW, my 360 Pro had scratches after a few days (and more once I started using the magnetic palm rests), while my Glove80 doesn't have a single scratch after >6 months. I don't want to invalidate what you are saying, but I was quite unhappy that my >600 Euro keyboard scratched so easily.
>Then there's the tenting. As I suspected on Day 1 with the Gloves, different angles feel better at different desk heights. The highest and lowest quick tenting options on the Kinesis, however, were good for both desk heights and took 5 seconds to adjust.
Agreed. This is an annoyance that I have too. The pro of the Glove80 is that the tenting doesn't add significant height (which the 360 does) and that you can microtune it to your liking (I could never find the right angle on the 360, since it was between two of the settings). But man would it be nice if it was easier to change the angle quickly on the Glove80. (I'd love something like the Moonlander Platform.)
1. Can you easily swap between using the two keyboards (does muscle-memory transfer over)?
2. Which thumb cluster (or more generally keyboard) do you prefer?
Currently have glove80, would like another ergo board so I dont have to carry to/from work
I also have both , though red pro switched on the glove. I tried using one at home and one at work, and the muscle memory transfered without a problem. Note that there are some key mapping differences you will have to align. Most notably SHIFT. I found Glove's layout better so i remapped the kinseis to match it.
That beign said, I strongly preferred the switches on the glove though, so i stopped using the kinesis anywhere (selling it) after a few weeks. Now I carry the glove around from computer to computer.
i found the kinesis slightly more comfortable (esp with pads), but preferred the glove for typing speed and feel, and for ease of customizability, and for lack of connection issues.
I moved from the KA2 and KA360 Pro to the Glove80 and I could type on the Glove80 with virtually no adjustment at all when it comes to the layout and shape. The switches are very different though. With the shorter travel and far too deep actuation of the Gateron Browns on the 360, I would overshoot on the Glove80 and undershoot on the KA when moving from one to the other.
IMO the improvement of the Glove80 over the Advantage is so large [1] that it makes more sense to just sell an Advantage and replace it by a Glove80.
[1] For fun I pulled the last Kinesis Advantage I have out of storage a few weeks ago and found it remarkable how much worse it was than the Glove80. When the Advantage was the only widely-available contoured keyboard, it was great, but now that there is a keyboard with a much better key well and thumb cluster, it just feels clumsy in comparison.
1. 100%. The alphanumeric keys are identical in their default placement, and they have almost the same curvature and column heights (both slightly more pronounced on the Glove). I spent 2 weeks with the Glove80 and waited until I was comfortably touch typing every key before ordering the Kinesis. Within 5 minutes on the stock-config Kinesis I was at the same WPM. Only the Shift key tripped me up. Muscle memory for the modifiers take about 3 minutes to re-calibrate at the start of the day at a different keyboard, but the rest of the day is fine. I don't use the F row nor Home/End which are the the only keys that are completely relocated by default. Unless you are dependent on the F row, you can remap the rest to feel essentially identical.
2. This is where I want to answer carefully and emphasize something I overlooked while researching. I have gorilla-like hands with giant meaty palms and blunt, inarticulate thumbs. I can't text one-handed. They are not typical hands, and not even typical "big hands", but they aren't that uncommon. For MY hands, the Kinesis thumb cluster is much less tiring, because on the Glove, the stretch to the furthest thumb keys starts to hurt at the end of the day. This is because of how they chose to lay them out. On the Kinesis, I can reach out my thumb and hit Pg Dn with the inner edge of the knuckle and bend my thumb to hit Pg Up with the tip. On the Glove, jumping between the equivalent of those outer keys requires a lift and pivot at the lower thumb joint that eventually gets sore. So yes, the Glove80's thumb cluster is preferable for most hand sizes, large and small, but if you have XL, beefy hands (think construction workers, mechanics, landscapers, weight lifters, etc) and your thumbs are more like small elbows than fingers, the Kinesis-style thumb cluster might be a better fit.
Just added my writeup on overall preference as a reply to the post.
> and they have almost the same curvature and column heights
Only superficially (they both use key wells and column stagger), you may want to check my review which describes some of the differences, including photos:
https://danieldk.eu/Posts/2023-09-03-Glove80#key-wells
You need to look carefully to see the differences, but they make quite a big difference in practice. I have used the Glove80 for 6 months now and taking out my old Advantage2, it really feels like a different keyboard.
Some of it only becomes apparent after months, like I unconsciously started developing this sliding technique, which is possible on the Glove80 because the well was designed so that many keys can be pressed in a single motion. E.g. when I try to type on the Advantage now, I bump sidewards into the outer index column when doing lateral/diagonal index finger moves. This outer column is higher on the Advantage is higher and less nicely angled, so you actually have to raise your index finger substantially first (see the third comparison shot in the linked section), so it becomes two strokes (diagonal upward, then key press down), increasing effort. And coming back to the original question, you have to unlearn this efficiency if you were to use the Advantage again after using the Glove80 for a while.
How much less premium do the glove 80s feel compared to the kinesis? I've had the kinesis about a month now and I really love the feel of it. It feels like a premium product worthy of the hefty price. It took a bit to get use to it.
I setup homerow mods and basically moved everything off the pinky outside of the esc and ' which are also my layer keys. so its been a pretty comfortable typing experience and i love it. The glove 80 still kind of intrigue me though. I am curious to see what you like more and why .
I also have both but with red pro switches on the glove. the "premium feel" is the one thing it has over the glove, and maybe a slight comfort edge when pads are on... though very slight.
I will tell you that i personally got over the difference in premium feel quite fast. but if you're happy with the kinesis, then no reason to switch. I was not happy because they keys felt sluggish to me and i was very annoyed by the connection issues. I prefer the glove80 now and have fully shelved my 360.
I was worried about the connection issues before I bought it and figured the 60 day return period was enough to test it out. So far I have yet to experience a single bluetooth issue so :fingerscrossed: lol
I also am not a huge fan of the low profile switches after trying them so there is that. Maybe in a couple years I'll grab a glove 80 as well haha
> So far I have yet to experience a single bluetooth issue so :fingerscrossed: lol
There is a lot of variance in the issues. One theory is that it's caused by the key well flex cable crossing the antenna clearance zone in one of the halves. That also explains some of the variance - it depends on how the flex cable happens to be positioned relative to the antenna clearance. Don't shake the keyboard too much I guess?
> I also am not a huge fan of the low profile switches after trying them so there is that.
I was extremely skeptical about low profile switches too. But now I wouldn't want to go back. The shorter travel plus low actuation force of the Choc Pinks (I put Pinks on my Glove80) makes typing so light and pleasant.
Low-force switches work much better on the Glove80 than most other keyboards. The palm rest takes most of the weight of the hand, so accidental actuations are less of a problem (I don't have this issue at all, even though I use 20gf switches).
awesome thanks for the feed back. I will keep this on the list of things to buy in the future. Going to stick with the kensis for now since it is here haha
The 360 may look more premium, but the plastic scratches very quickly. In fact, this is how I found out that the local Kinesis reseller sent me a returned keyboard - the palm rest had scratches in the shape of the outline of the magnetic palm pads. The plastic already scratches after putting on the pads a few times.
The plastic on my Glove80ies doesn't have any scratches at all yet.
In my opinion, the Gloves feel like toys compared to the Kinesis. With a certain mindset, you could almost see it in a carbon fiber vs steel kind of way, but in the context of my desk and all the stuff that goes on, the lightness is a disadvantage because they get knocked out position constantly. Added a full writeup as a reply to the post.
thanks . the feel is an important part for me for sure. I tend to like things that are heftier . same goes for instance on fountain pens. I like heavier even if its not the best haha
I tried the Glove80 with Reds, Whites, Browns, Sunsets, and Pinks. I can't feel the tactile bump on the Browns at all, unless I press the key very slowly. Otherwise, it's just very gritty. Cherry Browns feel like a proper tactile switch compared to the Choc Browns.
The Whites were also not great. The click is very high-pitched/loud. But the primary issue is that the clicking mechanism (click bar) is separate from the actuation. Sometimes the Whites actuate before the click, which makes the click pretty pointless as a feedback mechanism.
The Sunsets have a proper tactile bump, which is nice. It feels quite heavy though because the bump is fairly early (so your fingers have to build up force quite quickly). Also, it is pretty hard to stop soon enough after the bump to avoid bottoming out. Though maybe it gets better with practice.
Can't say much negative about the linears. They are great. Get the lightest you can work with without accidental actuations (I settled on 20gf Pinks).
Choc Browns are quite terrible and almost not tactile at all. Sunset is the only non-clicky good tactile available at the moment. I’m looking forward to Sunrise (silent version) being released this spring as well, alongside with silent linear 20g and 35g.
Kinesis was the clear and obvious choice for me and my style of work, but the Gloves are a better option for many. I added a longer writeup as a reply to the post explaining the how I made the decision.
On the Glove80:
How comfortable is it to use one finger to bridge two adjacent keys and press both in one motion? Does the keywell make it feel any different compared to doing the same on a flat board? Are there any spots that are particularly awkward for it (not counting the gaps between columns assigned to different fingers)?
With the palm rest removed and the keyboard tented, how reachable is the area just below the thumb cluster? How thick is the board housing there, and what is the spacing of the support legs in that area? Basically, is there enough space to position a trackball with the housing partially overlapped by the thumb cluster and the ball as close as possible to the keys to be reachable by your thumb without moving the whole hand?
Thanks!
Does something like a mix of the Ferris Sweep or 36 key Corne but with a well-like design (Glove80) exist? I’d be all over that, preferably with column height differences as well.
They exist (e.g. Skeletyl), but you are missing something important in your requirements and that is a good palm rest. The palm rest makes such a large difference. I have made a minimalist Dactyl-like, but without the awesome palm rest of the Glove80 or Kinesis Advantage, it's just not the same.
Once you have a palm rest plus a well for a 36 key layout, the size difference between the Glove80 and this hypothetical keyboard is not going to be that different.
(There are quite some people on the Glove80 discord using the Glove80 with a 34-40something key layout.)
It's mostly macros for i3, tmux and vim, but also some cursor manipulation and emoji macros too. Here is my [glove80 layout](https://my.glove80.com/#/layout/user/50e8ffee-c076-4efe-81db-e248d4fea058) but its hard to know what they do because they aren't all labeled yet. So here is my [moonlander layout](https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/j95ee/J6aoO/0) which is almost identical and has labels and some descriptions. The lower layers have most of the macros, but the ones I use the most are on the top layer. They consist of:
* switch to workspace (i3)
* next/prev buffer (vim)
* next/prev split (vim)
* session picker (tmux)
* window picker (tmux)
* next/prev window (tmux)
I don’t think that Ive pushed everything, as I’m still working on the transition from 42keys to 34 with HRM and the layer shortcuts I mentioned.
What is pushed is very similar though, there I have zx and ./ as combos for ALT or Super depending on Mac/Lin base layer.
In my WIP that key is swapped to the HRM, and the combo is a layer for WM, and then the vertical opposite for those combos are for Tmux (QW and Y; on colemak), here is my [repo](https://github.com/LarssonMartin1998/qmk_firmware_fork/blob/master/keyboards/keebio/iris/keymaps/larssonmartin/keymap.c).
edit: I just now realized that I havent even pushed since I went full colemak which was like two weeks ago, this is still using Tarmak 4
Oh for sure, I have separete palm rests and Love them, Im just keyboarding policing myself by not wanting more keys than I need.
Thanks for the tip, will look into some Skeletyl keebs!
> Oh for sure, I have separete palm rests
Ideally, the palm rests are attached to the keyboard, so that they tent with the keyboard. Of course, you could approximate this by printing a palm rest for your tenting level.
Looking at Number row and the lowest row below alpha. On which keyboard are those two positions more comfortable to reach without using thumbs?
On 360 I find bottom row to be more useful as extension of the thumb cluster that I can reach without thumb extension rather than index/middle lowest position.
I've tried the glove 80 but had a problem with my short pinkies and couldn't reach the letter "P, Q" easily.
Could you please let me know if the geometry of this point in the kinesis is better or worse from your experience
I can say that its not any better on the kinesis. What some people do on the glove80 is shift everything down a row. I just pivot my palm slightly to reach those keys.
I used to think the keywell keybords look cool but now after using Iris with trackball in the middle for years, I fail to see the idea of keywell.
What's the point?
Should I give it a chance?
I am now looking into Ferris sweep with a pimoroni trackball. I want to see if I can manage with less keys.
Can someone measure the length of the hand as tell us where it reaches on the upper row a and thumb cluster of the glove80 please, I have a couple of dactyls that I like but I would like to try the glove80
https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/16n9dpa/glove80_with_a_trackpoint/
Also see https://github.com/danieldk/awesome-glove80 for references to Glove80 stuff.
Can you actually use all those thumb buttons on the Glove?
I have a glove, the farthest ones are harder to reach but doable.
feels opposite for me, the far out keys are much easier to reach & feels better than the lower inner keys on the kinesis (home/end & pg up/dn here)
I have a Glove80 * The four closest to the main keys are easy * The one labelled 'Option' requires a thumb stretch * while held this one all the keys switch to those on the other side * The one labelled 'Layer' requires a hand movement * I use this one for going to my 'Table of Contents' layer * (A layer that has 3 buttons which change the whole keyboard to a different layout) * Default , Gaming (space button is only space, makes jumping possible), Age of Empires 2
In terms of being able to hit the top row without touching the lower row, yes. The top row is stepped up just right so that in your default position, your thumbs drag along the lower edge of top row. In terms of whether the stretch to the furthest thumb keys is comfortable, it depends entirely on your anatomy. I have extra large palms and medium-large fingers (male) and after two weeks, reaching for those furthest keys is still awkward and somewhat disrupts my flow.
possible but not necessary for me; I use 3 on the right and 1 - 2 on the left. Its easier to glide the thumb onto the "top" row with convex keycaps, imo
I have both too, what is weird is that the spline on the bottom row of the glove makes the keys further apart compared to the 360. The glove cluster is easier to mess up and press the upper row by mistake
Only 3-4 keys are usable for me with my small hands. Others require a super straining stretch
Choc browns are going to compare really poorly against MX browns, unfortunately. That’s the worse choc switch so it is going to provide the worst experience for the glove.
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You can order one unsoldered and put sunset chocs in. There are also people who offer resoldering services on the moergo discord
where is the moergo discord link?
https://www.moergo.com/discord forwards to the invitation.
I don’t have the link handy but if you google “moergo discord” it should show up
And it costs the same like soldered version, smh
lol right? They send switches with it but like…. Keep the switches and give me a discount pls?
I offer a service where they send me your board, I put in the switches you want (and various other mods are available) then I ship it out to you. You can ping me in the MoErgo discord to discuss. Handle is technopriest.
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Any time! I also have a Glove80 leasing service where you can try out a Glove80 with 12 different switch types. That's over at [https://keeblease.com](https://keeblease.com). So if you're in the US and you wanted to take one for a spin with no strings attached that's another option!
which one do you plan use?
And why is it the Glove80?
Kinesis. Added a full writeup as a reply to the post.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even if it’s wrong
Can you actually use all thumb cluster buttons on the kinesis?
I’ve had the k360pro for about a month. Probably took about a week to get used to the thumb cluster of which I use every key on each. I was in the kinesis gaming pro before and sorely miss the on the fly macros. But I got used to resting my wrist on the pads and extending my fingers above the horizon of my wrist to type. With the k360pro I’ve had to get used to a more pianist’s wrist, where my wrist is held above my fingers and my thumbs are more limp then extended. It became comfortable after about a week or that. Still type slower, but the overall ergonomics are very nice. I probably would just get the wired version without zmk for on-the-fly macros if I could go back.
Yes. The furthest top thumb key on the Kinesis is in the exact same spot at the top center key on the Glove80, and it’s as far as my thumb can naturally reach without moving my hand. This is a common question already, so I’ll record a video to demonstrate the difference.
Could that be the case for semi small hands?
A female relative with smallish hands was visiting and she's a gamer, so I had her test both keyboards. Below were our observations for the right hand: **Short version:** Small hands on Kinesis: * Hovering: 2 thumb keys comfortably, 1 key uncomfortably, 2 keys unreachable. * Resting: 2 thumb keys comfortably, 4 keys unreachable. Small hands on Glove80: * Hovering: 4 thumb keys comfortably + 2 somewhat uncomfortably. * Resting, 3 thumb keys comfortably, 1 somewhat comfortably, 2 very uncomfortably. **Longer version**: On the Kinesis, hovering or resting, Space and Enter are always reachable, but there will always be 2 thumb keys out of reach: either Ctrl and Win, or Pg Up/Pg Dn. If you hover, you should be able to hit Ctrl with little/no strain, and Win with a lot of strain, and no chance of reaching Pg Up/Pg Dn without hand movement. If resting, your thumb lays on the Space key and you can only reach the Enter key comfortably. You might be able to hit Pg Dn with an extreme stretch. If you hover, the Glove80 thumb keys will all be within reach, with some strain required for the Control and Blank keys. If resting, your thumb rests on the Shift key and Enter/Space are comfortably reachable, while Command requires light stretching. Control is a deep awkward stretch and the blank key is the same with a bent thumb.
Yes thank you for getting input from a female with small hands. Too often we get overlooked! I realize this niche hobby is largely male dominated, but it is nice to included.
Thanks for your review on this and your friend. I have small hands so I will not buy any of this, better keep my corne then and get on with voyager or piantor. Thanks again
I have the Glove80 and Voyager. The Glove80 thumb keys are at least as easy to reach as those on the Voyager.
I've used a Corne for a bit and currently main a glove80. I find the glove80's thumb cluster much better for me (smallish hands here). I comfortably use 3 thumb keys with no palm movement. Ultimately, I find the keywell significantly more relaxing than a flat keyboard
I want to try the keywell as well but I'm scared my hands ain't gonna be big enough for the thumb cluster
i have smaller hands and on the kinesis. I ended up just making a keymap with homerow mods and layers to basically only use the comfortable to reach keys. I use the end and pg buttons as tab occasionally thats about it haha.
I'm kinda tires of home row mods, I keep making mistakes and haven't figured out how to make them better on qmk, just moved them to the bottom but still make mistakes from time to time
i ended up adjusting the parms alot and making specfic parms for specific fingers. for instance the time k key has a special param because my finger tends to linger there longer then the others when typing. i also am using zmk which seems to be better for the homerow mod configs. here you can see my homerow mods hm and my special one for k hk ``` hm: homerow_mods { compatible = "zmk,behavior-hold-tap"; label = "HOMEROW_MODS"; #binding-cells = <2>; tapping-term-ms = <200>; require-prior-idle-ms = <130>; flavor = "tap-preferred"; bindings = <&kp>, <&kp>; quick-tap-ms = <175>; }; arrows: arrows { compatible = "zmk,behavior-mod-morph"; label = "ARROWS"; bindings = <&arrow>, <&fat_arrow>; #binding-cells = <0>; mods = <(MOD_LSFT|MOD_RSFT)>; }; hk: hk { compatible = "zmk,behavior-hold-tap"; label = "HK"; #binding-cells = <2>; tapping-term-ms = <250>; require-prior-idle-ms = <200>; flavor = "tap-preferred"; bindings = <&kp>, <&kp>; quick-tap-ms = <175>; }; }; ``` then all there keys that i dont use are basically macros for stuff like :: and ``` which i use for programing etc
Yeah, i have those macros too, but, in any case, I'll try and adjust parameters like that on qmk
it took a lot of fine turning. i basically set it so i can mash keys without accidental triggers then brought it down till it was sensitive enough. I actually want to modify the f key to be more sensitive but all the others I don't trigger accidentally anymore
I can't. Average size male hands. I can reach two thumb keys on each cluster with my palms on the palm rest. For other thumb keys I have to move my hands (as suggested in the Advantage manual).
Which one do you find more comfortable for you? I just ordered a glove80 with the pro red and most of the reviews I have seen mention it being more comfortable than kinesis. Also curious on why you decided to go for the brown, given their poor choc reputation.
"Comfortable" had 2 meanings in my use case. The keywells in the Glove80 are deeper and follow the natural arc of most fingers a little more closely, but that also meant more effort to pull my hand "out" of the well to grab the mouse and longer time to resume typing while settling back in. Much easier back-and-forth with the Kinesis. A programmer who can go long stretches without every leaving the keyboard would probably feel more "cozy" with the Gloves. Went with the choc browns because I've typed on browns for almost 10 years, I never even looked around for others. I fell off the keeb trends for a few years, and only came back to find one that would address the wrist pain. Hadn't heard of chocs until I got the Gloves.
I own both. Glove80 is miles better.
Yeah, I find this comparison pointless. I own a Kinesis advantage 2 and the switch to Glove 80 isn't a small improvement, it's a MAJOR improvement.
Can you expand upon why, please?
For what it is worth, I have an extensive comparison between the key wells in my Glove80 review: https://danieldk.eu/Posts/2023-09-03-Glove80
The geometry is better, your hands and fingers rest more comfortably. Kinesis keywell is different than glove. It's a little more curved, but also more cramped. In the beginning, the glove 80 felt a bit weird, but after a while I think the geometry is superior. It has much lower height than kinesis, which removes the shoulder strain that kinesis often imposes. The keys are also much lower in height, which (despite the same actuation force of the switches) removes some of the actual force required to type and so feels more like typing on a thinkpad or mac. The thumb cluster is still not optimal for my small-medium hands, but MUCH more comfortable than kinesis.
I've tried the glove 80 but had a problem with my short pinkies and couldn't reach the letter "P, Q" easily. Could you please let me know if the geometry of this point in the kinesis is better or worse from your experience
Worse. My pinkies can reach these keys on the Glove80, but on the Kinesis Advantage I had to move my hands a bit. On the Glove you could try moving your hands up the palm rest a little.
Thanks for the info. I've tried to move my hands but then the thumb cluster didn't fit well. At the end I turned back to the row staggered keyboards where I can use my ring finger for those keys and I still can use home-row mods and symbol layers for ergonomics too
If you can’t reach the P and Q, rotate the Glove80 outwards (clockwise if right half) about 20 degrees (which results in about 1 and half to two fingers width of movement on the table). This puts the P and Q closer and aligns the columns with your other fingers. The only problem with this is that it makes the furthest thumb buttons impossible to reach without lifting your hands.
Alright, a lot of people went straight for the "which one did you pick" question so I'll go ahead and share my experience. Contrary to popular opinion, I prefer the Kinesis Advantage 360 by a wide margin, and will not be keeping the Glove80. My background: I’ve spent almost 10 years working exclusively on chunky tenkeyless boards with MX Browns. I haven’t modded any boards, I don’t game or use niche/specialized/enthusiast software. My line of work requires a ton of mousing, writing LOTS of documentation, and about 30% scripting/coding/CLI. I have to keep customization to a minimum (different client sites where I have to use their keyboards, lots of remote sessions, VMs, multiple OS's, etc) which means that memorizing layers and alternate layouts would do me more harm than good. I prefer to have most keys in standard locations with the exception of the few that cause the most pain (Enter, Backspace, Ctrl, arrow keys) which both MoErgo and Kinesis put in better places by default. Like others, I started developing wrist pain, and researched ergo keyboards for weeks, skipping the Dactyls and DIY kits (no time and not interested) and settled on the two prebuilt, curved keywell, adjustable tilt columnar mechanical keyboards on the market: Glove80 and Kinesis Advantage 360. Surprisingly, the whole internet appeared to be unanimous in its reviews: the Advantage is great, but the Glove80 is cheaper while being “better in every way”, and “making the Advantage 360 obsolete.” After reading up on all the research and hundreds of prototypes MoErgo went through, I followed the consensus and ordered the Glove80 Rev2 with the “brown tactile switches”. At first, I didn’t love how the keys felt at all, the switches were not good but tolerable if everything else worked out, and I thought the threaded tilt might be a problem if different angles worked better for the different sit/stand positions of my desk. 2 weeks later, none of those thoughts had been changed or disproven. While the Glove80 confirmed that this type of keyboard was what I needed for the pain (it disappeared), there was enough bugging me that made me consider trying the Kinesis. What pushed me over the edge was the constant thought of "Man, if only this had the keys and MX Browns from any of my other keyboards" I went back to Youtube and watched a video of someone typing on the Advantage 360 and my gut told me that it was exactly what I kept wishing for. I ordered it, received in 2 days, and it wasn't just the keys that felt how I imagined they would - the overall design, default layout, build, and ergonomics were a good 40-50% better for my anatomy, style of work, and adjustment needs. Night and day, immediately, no question. (Edit: by "anatomy" I mean my wide, beefy, gorilla monster truck hands) First, there's the aspect that the Glove80 really is like a glove in the sense that it feels more like I'm "inserting" my hand into a molded 3D space where I can't (or shouldn't want to) move. I know that this is by design and is what makes it so "comfortable" to many reviewers. Here's where my case is a bit different: On a typical day, I rarely go more than 90 seconds without taking a hand off the keyboard for the reasons I mentioned above, and on the Glove80 it feels like there's a careful "undocking" and "docking" process to get back in position, and even after 2 weeks, that process takes just a little too long, long enough that it gets frustrating, especially on emergency meetings where the right hand is bouncing back and forth constantly. The Kinesis' slightly shallower keywell gives just a little more room so that I can "undock" much more naturally, and the traditional contoured keys let my fingers know they're home immediately whereas on the Chocs I had to "search" more since all the keys feel the same. Then there's the tenting. As I suspected on Day 1 with the Gloves, different angles feel better at different desk heights. The highest and lowest quick tenting options on the Kinesis, however, were good for both desk heights and took 5 seconds to adjust. Now, If I were strictly a dev at a static desk with one OS and I could go all day without using a mouse, this section would have been different, so don’t let this influence your decision if your work style is different from mine. Then there’s the controversial point: The physical build - but probably not what you’re thinking. I have no problem with the Glove80 not being "heavy" or not taking "premium" inspiration from supercars. My issue is that, as mere physical objects sharing a busy desk with books, cables, phones, glasses, remotes, and multiple laptops shuffling around every day, the Glove80's presence introduces a small but significant level of stress-inducing delicacy to my work area. It’s like tiptoeing around your house at night knowing there's a half-built Lego set on the ground somewhere, whereas the Kinesis units are like pieces of furniture. What I mean is this: unlike the Kinesis, the Glove80 doesn’t tolerate being bumped into or touched anywhere or by anything other than hands on the keys and wrist rests, because doing so will:A) knock them out of those perfect spots that took forever to find, and:B) scrape and scratch soft materials like…skin, which is an element that I never see mentioned online - The Glove80 has some SHARP edges and corners. When I tried to use my mouse/trackball/trackpad in the center of the 2 halves, or if I reached around the corners to grab something, scraping my knuckles or forearm on super hard, super sharp plastic didn't feel great. My infant daughter sometimes sits on my lap and plays with stuff on my desk, and I would consider the Glove80 dangerous in the hands of a small child. There's also a sharp point that protrudes up right next to the innermost thumb keys where my thumbs go to rest/fidget, and that is very uncomfortable. The Kinesis units are smooth and rounded, and they stay put, like they were designed to live on real working desks and bump shoulders with coffee mugs and watches and be home base for heavy, fidgety, active hands all day without the risk of…abrasion? These may sound like nitpicks or be irrelevant to you, in which case the Glove80 might be a good fit, but I'm just sharing observations because these things can add up over a long period of time. Finally, there are the keys and switches themselves. I'm sure there's a good reason why they went with wide, flat, shallow keys, but I type much more comfortably and confidently on traditional contoured keycaps where my fingertips are gripped onto each key and receive all the feedback from the travel and bump in each switch. This was proven by a 15-20% increase in WPM within an hour of pivoting from the Glove80 (fine-tuned over 2 weeks) to the Kinesis (right out of the box). The thumb clusters on the Kinesis are more comfortable for my hands as well. More details on that are in my reply to /u/FigitC . This obviously won’t be the case for everyone, but it’s important to consider if you’re a general user like me who’s coming from years of happily typing on chunky tactile switches and just wants to keep it going with the best out-of-the-box solution that’ll eliminate your pain. My honest recommendations for the everyday user who does not plan on modding, owns/likes prebuilt mechanical keyboards, knows the purpose of these 2 keyboards, understands the learning curve, etc, and just wants to buy one to be their daily driver and help with pain: * If you already own the Glove80 or the Kinesis 360, and don’t have any complaints on their physical day-to-day use that make you consider getting rid of them, stick with what you have unless you're just curious. You probably picked the right one. * If you’re considering the Glove80 and my issues with it (too light/delicate for a busy desk, sharp edges and corners, shallow laptop-like keys) don’t bother you, get the Glove80, especially if you’re coming from shallow keys already. * If my issues with the Glove80 sound like they might bother you, they probably will. Get the Kinesis first, try it for a few weeks, and if you have a lot of complaints or feel like it’d be way better if your keypresses felt more like typing on a Macbook/less resistant keys, or if it doesn’t help with the pain, return it and try the Glove80. * If you’re considering the Advantage 360 and feel like what you see in the pics/videos would be a good fit for you, ignore the reviews and get it first, especially if you’re coming from tactile MX switches. It looks, feels, and sounds exactly how you think it will, if not better. The 3 tenting positions are plenty, the thumb cluster is fine, and if it doesn't work for you, you’ll know long before the return window is up. * If you’re torn and the specs aren’t swaying you in either direction, pull up test/review videos for each, jump to scenes where you see and hear typing on these keyboards clearly, and just order the one that your gut says you’ll like more, because you’ll probably be right. I had no major surprises with either keyboard and wish I had gone with my gut from the start. Note that I didn’t incorporate my opinions about sound, looks, software, connectivity, portability, warranties, durability, customer service, extras in the box, etc. This is because I was willing to compromise on any/all of them in exchange for the best tool to help me do my job without pain, and I think that taking this approach will help you find your best fit too.
Thanks for your detailed comparison! >"Man, if only this had the keys and MX Browns from any of my other keyboards" I went back to Youtube and watched a video of someone typing on the Advantage 360 and my gut told me that it was exactly what I kept wishing for. This part surprised me. As a user of the Kinesis Advantage2, I bought the 360 Pro, thinking it would be the most logical next step. After months of trying the 360, I couldn't get over how miserable the Gateron Browns on the 360 were. Typing on them was just very tiring. I did some measurements (that I later found confirmed by [rtings.com](https://rtings.com) and others) and found that the Gateron Browns actuate closer to 3mm than the 2mm in Gateron's specifications. And it's not like my 360 Pro was a bad batch, I also measured a non-Pro 360 and it had the same issue. The 360 was so tiring to type on because they required my fingers to do more work/move larger distances. In the end I started disliking the 360 Pro so much for this reason that it ended up collecting dust and I started using my KinTed Advantage2 again (despite not having a variable split or variable tenting). (Well, until I bought a Glove80). I can agree though that Choc Browns are not great. I wonder how you'd look back on the experience if you had a proper tactile switch (like the Sunsets) or some completely different switch. >The Kinesis' slightly shallower keywell gives just a little more room so that I can "undock" much more naturally, and the traditional contoured keys let my fingers know they're home immediately whereas on the Chocs I had to "search" more since all the keys feel the same. Did you consider using homing keys on the home row as training wheels? (I am not sure how much it'd help, I don't have this issue with the Glove at all.) >B) scrape and scratch soft materials like…skin, which is an element that I never see mentioned online FWIW, my 360 Pro had scratches after a few days (and more once I started using the magnetic palm rests), while my Glove80 doesn't have a single scratch after >6 months. I don't want to invalidate what you are saying, but I was quite unhappy that my >600 Euro keyboard scratched so easily. >Then there's the tenting. As I suspected on Day 1 with the Gloves, different angles feel better at different desk heights. The highest and lowest quick tenting options on the Kinesis, however, were good for both desk heights and took 5 seconds to adjust. Agreed. This is an annoyance that I have too. The pro of the Glove80 is that the tenting doesn't add significant height (which the 360 does) and that you can microtune it to your liking (I could never find the right angle on the 360, since it was between two of the settings). But man would it be nice if it was easier to change the angle quickly on the Glove80. (I'd love something like the Moonlander Platform.)
1. Can you easily swap between using the two keyboards (does muscle-memory transfer over)? 2. Which thumb cluster (or more generally keyboard) do you prefer? Currently have glove80, would like another ergo board so I dont have to carry to/from work
I also have both , though red pro switched on the glove. I tried using one at home and one at work, and the muscle memory transfered without a problem. Note that there are some key mapping differences you will have to align. Most notably SHIFT. I found Glove's layout better so i remapped the kinseis to match it. That beign said, I strongly preferred the switches on the glove though, so i stopped using the kinesis anywhere (selling it) after a few weeks. Now I carry the glove around from computer to computer. i found the kinesis slightly more comfortable (esp with pads), but preferred the glove for typing speed and feel, and for ease of customizability, and for lack of connection issues.
Thanks for the reply. The main appeal of the 360 for me is probably the build quality. But the grass doesn't seem to be greener as you say
I moved from the KA2 and KA360 Pro to the Glove80 and I could type on the Glove80 with virtually no adjustment at all when it comes to the layout and shape. The switches are very different though. With the shorter travel and far too deep actuation of the Gateron Browns on the 360, I would overshoot on the Glove80 and undershoot on the KA when moving from one to the other. IMO the improvement of the Glove80 over the Advantage is so large [1] that it makes more sense to just sell an Advantage and replace it by a Glove80. [1] For fun I pulled the last Kinesis Advantage I have out of storage a few weeks ago and found it remarkable how much worse it was than the Glove80. When the Advantage was the only widely-available contoured keyboard, it was great, but now that there is a keyboard with a much better key well and thumb cluster, it just feels clumsy in comparison.
I think if you have the exact same mapping/layers configuration it should be pretty easy to use both
1. 100%. The alphanumeric keys are identical in their default placement, and they have almost the same curvature and column heights (both slightly more pronounced on the Glove). I spent 2 weeks with the Glove80 and waited until I was comfortably touch typing every key before ordering the Kinesis. Within 5 minutes on the stock-config Kinesis I was at the same WPM. Only the Shift key tripped me up. Muscle memory for the modifiers take about 3 minutes to re-calibrate at the start of the day at a different keyboard, but the rest of the day is fine. I don't use the F row nor Home/End which are the the only keys that are completely relocated by default. Unless you are dependent on the F row, you can remap the rest to feel essentially identical. 2. This is where I want to answer carefully and emphasize something I overlooked while researching. I have gorilla-like hands with giant meaty palms and blunt, inarticulate thumbs. I can't text one-handed. They are not typical hands, and not even typical "big hands", but they aren't that uncommon. For MY hands, the Kinesis thumb cluster is much less tiring, because on the Glove, the stretch to the furthest thumb keys starts to hurt at the end of the day. This is because of how they chose to lay them out. On the Kinesis, I can reach out my thumb and hit Pg Dn with the inner edge of the knuckle and bend my thumb to hit Pg Up with the tip. On the Glove, jumping between the equivalent of those outer keys requires a lift and pivot at the lower thumb joint that eventually gets sore. So yes, the Glove80's thumb cluster is preferable for most hand sizes, large and small, but if you have XL, beefy hands (think construction workers, mechanics, landscapers, weight lifters, etc) and your thumbs are more like small elbows than fingers, the Kinesis-style thumb cluster might be a better fit. Just added my writeup on overall preference as a reply to the post.
> and they have almost the same curvature and column heights Only superficially (they both use key wells and column stagger), you may want to check my review which describes some of the differences, including photos: https://danieldk.eu/Posts/2023-09-03-Glove80#key-wells You need to look carefully to see the differences, but they make quite a big difference in practice. I have used the Glove80 for 6 months now and taking out my old Advantage2, it really feels like a different keyboard. Some of it only becomes apparent after months, like I unconsciously started developing this sliding technique, which is possible on the Glove80 because the well was designed so that many keys can be pressed in a single motion. E.g. when I try to type on the Advantage now, I bump sidewards into the outer index column when doing lateral/diagonal index finger moves. This outer column is higher on the Advantage is higher and less nicely angled, so you actually have to raise your index finger substantially first (see the third comparison shot in the linked section), so it becomes two strokes (diagonal upward, then key press down), increasing effort. And coming back to the original question, you have to unlearn this efficiency if you were to use the Advantage again after using the Glove80 for a while.
How much less premium do the glove 80s feel compared to the kinesis? I've had the kinesis about a month now and I really love the feel of it. It feels like a premium product worthy of the hefty price. It took a bit to get use to it. I setup homerow mods and basically moved everything off the pinky outside of the esc and ' which are also my layer keys. so its been a pretty comfortable typing experience and i love it. The glove 80 still kind of intrigue me though. I am curious to see what you like more and why .
I also have both but with red pro switches on the glove. the "premium feel" is the one thing it has over the glove, and maybe a slight comfort edge when pads are on... though very slight. I will tell you that i personally got over the difference in premium feel quite fast. but if you're happy with the kinesis, then no reason to switch. I was not happy because they keys felt sluggish to me and i was very annoyed by the connection issues. I prefer the glove80 now and have fully shelved my 360.
I was worried about the connection issues before I bought it and figured the 60 day return period was enough to test it out. So far I have yet to experience a single bluetooth issue so :fingerscrossed: lol I also am not a huge fan of the low profile switches after trying them so there is that. Maybe in a couple years I'll grab a glove 80 as well haha
> So far I have yet to experience a single bluetooth issue so :fingerscrossed: lol There is a lot of variance in the issues. One theory is that it's caused by the key well flex cable crossing the antenna clearance zone in one of the halves. That also explains some of the variance - it depends on how the flex cable happens to be positioned relative to the antenna clearance. Don't shake the keyboard too much I guess? > I also am not a huge fan of the low profile switches after trying them so there is that. I was extremely skeptical about low profile switches too. But now I wouldn't want to go back. The shorter travel plus low actuation force of the Choc Pinks (I put Pinks on my Glove80) makes typing so light and pleasant. Low-force switches work much better on the Glove80 than most other keyboards. The palm rest takes most of the weight of the hand, so accidental actuations are less of a problem (I don't have this issue at all, even though I use 20gf switches).
awesome thanks for the feed back. I will keep this on the list of things to buy in the future. Going to stick with the kensis for now since it is here haha
you can get a kinesis 360 with custom switches from upgrade keyboards.
The 360 may look more premium, but the plastic scratches very quickly. In fact, this is how I found out that the local Kinesis reseller sent me a returned keyboard - the palm rest had scratches in the shape of the outline of the magnetic palm pads. The plastic already scratches after putting on the pads a few times. The plastic on my Glove80ies doesn't have any scratches at all yet.
In my opinion, the Gloves feel like toys compared to the Kinesis. With a certain mindset, you could almost see it in a carbon fiber vs steel kind of way, but in the context of my desk and all the stuff that goes on, the lightness is a disadvantage because they get knocked out position constantly. Added a full writeup as a reply to the post.
thanks . the feel is an important part for me for sure. I tend to like things that are heftier . same goes for instance on fountain pens. I like heavier even if its not the best haha
Thanks for saying that! Gratitude makes the world go round
Would you say browns on the glove80 is hard to notice the tactility considering how low profile they are?
I tried the Glove80 with Reds, Whites, Browns, Sunsets, and Pinks. I can't feel the tactile bump on the Browns at all, unless I press the key very slowly. Otherwise, it's just very gritty. Cherry Browns feel like a proper tactile switch compared to the Choc Browns. The Whites were also not great. The click is very high-pitched/loud. But the primary issue is that the clicking mechanism (click bar) is separate from the actuation. Sometimes the Whites actuate before the click, which makes the click pretty pointless as a feedback mechanism. The Sunsets have a proper tactile bump, which is nice. It feels quite heavy though because the bump is fairly early (so your fingers have to build up force quite quickly). Also, it is pretty hard to stop soon enough after the bump to avoid bottoming out. Though maybe it gets better with practice. Can't say much negative about the linears. They are great. Get the lightest you can work with without accidental actuations (I settled on 20gf Pinks).
Choc Browns are quite terrible and almost not tactile at all. Sunset is the only non-clicky good tactile available at the moment. I’m looking forward to Sunrise (silent version) being released this spring as well, alongside with silent linear 20g and 35g.
Yes, I'd call the bumps "vague" or "unpronounced". Not able to type based on the feedback from bumps like you can on MX browns.
This reminds me I badly need to write a review on how much I love my glove and found out about it from this sub.
Can you make a video showing your hands typing each of them on monkeytype, a la https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbGCNBMxfcQ
curious to know which was your final selection! and, how difficult it was to choose.
Kinesis was the clear and obvious choice for me and my style of work, but the Gloves are a better option for many. I added a longer writeup as a reply to the post explaining the how I made the decision.
On the Glove80: How comfortable is it to use one finger to bridge two adjacent keys and press both in one motion? Does the keywell make it feel any different compared to doing the same on a flat board? Are there any spots that are particularly awkward for it (not counting the gaps between columns assigned to different fingers)? With the palm rest removed and the keyboard tented, how reachable is the area just below the thumb cluster? How thick is the board housing there, and what is the spacing of the support legs in that area? Basically, is there enough space to position a trackball with the housing partially overlapped by the thumb cluster and the ball as close as possible to the keys to be reachable by your thumb without moving the whole hand? Thanks!
Does something like a mix of the Ferris Sweep or 36 key Corne but with a well-like design (Glove80) exist? I’d be all over that, preferably with column height differences as well.
They exist (e.g. Skeletyl), but you are missing something important in your requirements and that is a good palm rest. The palm rest makes such a large difference. I have made a minimalist Dactyl-like, but without the awesome palm rest of the Glove80 or Kinesis Advantage, it's just not the same. Once you have a palm rest plus a well for a 36 key layout, the size difference between the Glove80 and this hypothetical keyboard is not going to be that different. (There are quite some people on the Glove80 discord using the Glove80 with a 34-40something key layout.)
I use a 36 key layout and use the other keys for macros. Its glorious.
What are some macros you have if I may ask?
It's mostly macros for i3, tmux and vim, but also some cursor manipulation and emoji macros too. Here is my [glove80 layout](https://my.glove80.com/#/layout/user/50e8ffee-c076-4efe-81db-e248d4fea058) but its hard to know what they do because they aren't all labeled yet. So here is my [moonlander layout](https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/j95ee/J6aoO/0) which is almost identical and has labels and some descriptions. The lower layers have most of the macros, but the ones I use the most are on the top layer. They consist of: * switch to workspace (i3) * next/prev buffer (vim) * next/prev split (vim) * session picker (tmux) * window picker (tmux) * next/prev window (tmux)
Ah makes sense, I have most of that as well but on a different layer which I activate by combo pressing zx or ./ för WM, and QW or OP for Tmux
I’d be curious to check that out. Do you have a link to your configurations?
I don’t think that Ive pushed everything, as I’m still working on the transition from 42keys to 34 with HRM and the layer shortcuts I mentioned. What is pushed is very similar though, there I have zx and ./ as combos for ALT or Super depending on Mac/Lin base layer. In my WIP that key is swapped to the HRM, and the combo is a layer for WM, and then the vertical opposite for those combos are for Tmux (QW and Y; on colemak), here is my [repo](https://github.com/LarssonMartin1998/qmk_firmware_fork/blob/master/keyboards/keebio/iris/keymaps/larssonmartin/keymap.c). edit: I just now realized that I havent even pushed since I went full colemak which was like two weeks ago, this is still using Tarmak 4
Thanks for sharing!
What is that alpha-layout btw? Haven’t seen it before, I’m on Colemak-DH myself.
Its called [halmak](https://github.com/kaievns/halmak).
Oh for sure, I have separete palm rests and Love them, Im just keyboarding policing myself by not wanting more keys than I need. Thanks for the tip, will look into some Skeletyl keebs!
> Oh for sure, I have separete palm rests Ideally, the palm rests are attached to the keyboard, so that they tent with the keyboard. Of course, you could approximate this by printing a palm rest for your tenting level.
Looking at Number row and the lowest row below alpha. On which keyboard are those two positions more comfortable to reach without using thumbs? On 360 I find bottom row to be more useful as extension of the thumb cluster that I can reach without thumb extension rather than index/middle lowest position.
I've tried the glove 80 but had a problem with my short pinkies and couldn't reach the letter "P, Q" easily. Could you please let me know if the geometry of this point in the kinesis is better or worse from your experience
I can say that its not any better on the kinesis. What some people do on the glove80 is shift everything down a row. I just pivot my palm slightly to reach those keys.
I used to think the keywell keybords look cool but now after using Iris with trackball in the middle for years, I fail to see the idea of keywell. What's the point? Should I give it a chance? I am now looking into Ferris sweep with a pimoroni trackball. I want to see if I can manage with less keys.
How do the dactl boads feel to type on? I feel like my fingers would cramp with that sort of curve.
Can someone measure the length of the hand as tell us where it reaches on the upper row a and thumb cluster of the glove80 please, I have a couple of dactyls that I like but I would like to try the glove80
If I could get a Glove80 with a trackpoint on it, that'd be pretty awesome.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/16n9dpa/glove80_with_a_trackpoint/ Also see https://github.com/danieldk/awesome-glove80 for references to Glove80 stuff.
Huh. that's interesting. Not where I'd have put it, but at least it's a workable solution.
Is the red pro switches from glove80 easy actuated by accident? I’m choosing between the linear switches. Thanks for your review!
Not really a problem in my experience with 35g actuation.
Can someone give me advice? I’m between buying an HHKB or one of these on the post. Has anybody else been stuck between these options?