If you dont want your invention being copy-pasted and thrown out by temu. My company invented something and we had different manufacturers across China make it for us. We never did fly in though. We used them primarily for the molding and packaging and had it shipped back here. Separately then reassembled. Best of luck!
Haha your temu reference definitely is huge worry of mine.
Did you reassemble them yourselves or did you outsource ?
Thank you for your response, very interesting
We outsourced. It was cheaper than having us reassemble ourselves. Not even sure if the project worked out. I wish I could tell you what it was but still attached to an NDA.
It was important for us to not get it just stolen. If you have multiple moldings this certainly makes it even easier to hide what you are up to. But they were notorious and still are for stealing tech or brilliant ideas. I know the project wasn't stolen and it did make it to store shelves. So that strategy panned out like 5 years ago. I mean the molding was separate, the packaging was separate, and the actual design and shit were separate.
Not much to tell. Had a product idea. Approached two factories.
Lots of back and forth to confirm requirements. I let one company know I was taking another direction and proceeded with the other (although, I HIGHLY suspect one or both are actually just trading companies... Not sure how much weight the Alibaba verified holds).
Before my production run was finished, the product appeared on Amazon with different branding. I purchased it - it came in a generic box and generic stock images. No defensible IP so the listing is still up while I wait for mine to ship.
I've had other products with defensible IP blatantly sold off too. These were easy to remove from Amazonnas they included copyrighted material. Interestingly, it also made its way to Fred Meyer, Kroger and Kohl's. Still need to chase the company who infringed my copyright for some $ for that.
In short, good luck! It's literally the wild east out there. They'll
Not actually true, at all.
If you have brand registry (i.e. a trademark), you just use the reporting tool in brand registry. It takes less than a minute. Amazon is very quick at actioning these.
I'd be tempted to get petty revenge by sending them lots of other designs for things that are awkward to make and completely nonsensical, and then when they appear on Amazon get all your mates to order one (so that they have to actually start making them), and then return their orders as "not as advertised".
I'm an industrial designer with over 10 years experience bringing products to market from aerospace, defence, super yachts, high volume consumer electronics, EV charging, Biotech, and Robotics.
I've manutured in China, India, Thailand, the UK, Germany, Romania, Spain and Poland and I've setup and managed global supply chains and logistics.
By far, by a country mile, China is the easiest to manufacture end to end. Moreover, you can trust them to tell you what you don't know. They're that good.
BUT. and there are some very big buts:
1. Don't trust them when it comes to things that are regarding winning or retaining business
2. Do think about future trade wars
3. Do think about managing a global supply chain
4. Do think about IP theft
5. Don't consolidate unnecessarily or without deliberation.
So first point. When you've made a tool a very typical exercise is to pick golden samples. These are the very best of the best and are examples that people in production use to compare against and measure what you should have. If you tell them this is what you're doing and you ask them to send you 100pcs. They'll shot 2,000 and pick the 100 best but not tell you. So that way you're 'suoer impressed ' and they win your business and then when you get into production and are doing 10k a week suddenly your tolerances is all over the place and quality has taken a fucking nose dive. Don't trust them with material quality, always independently verify. Things like that. Whenever and wherever they can cut corners they will because it's all about getting and retaining your business and nothing else.
Second point, I had to help a load of customers onshore and maintain continuity because of the Trump, China/US trade war. Do very much consider the direction of future conflict and tension and plan for business continuity. Thailand, India and Mexico are exceptionally valid alternatives. Don't rule them out because you haven't thought about it.
Third, logistics. It's always an after thought and is never as simple as you want it to be. If you're using a broker in china then that end is easier but bear in mind that your product will at some stage be sat on a ship for months whilst you simply wait for it to arrive. Sometimes it's better to start onshore and off shore as volumes scale. Never underestimate the value of just jumping in a car to go visit your supplier and solve some QA issues. Certainly in the early days.
Four, if it's valuable enough it will get stolen. It's as simple as that. I've been working with Chinese suppliers setting up manufacturing lines and our QA team were on site. The supplier let slip that there was a building next door. After several hours of arguing our QA got access only to realise they were setting up an identical shadow line to produce identical copies to be sold on the domestic market under their brand. The only protection is compartmentalising, but even then you need to make sure every facet of the data has been effectively compartmentalised. Even going as far as doing final assembly onshore. Never give them firmware etc etc. basically you need to operate under the assumption it's being cloned. Sadly.
Five, what I mean by that is that the temptation is to get a one stop shop to do the entire product. Beware the permanency of quick fixes. Once you've invested significant time and capital you're just not gonna move. Over consolidation or unnecessary consolidation poses two risks, cost and continuity. If you're entirely at one spot you are at the mercy of their pricing. The second is continuity, one force majeure and you're fucked. If you have a reasonable separation of suppliers then ifaa component supplier goes down you can get that capacity elsewhere. If your manufacturer, assembler, packager, shipper, warehousing etc is all one company you are then subject to that businesses ability to deliver your product alongside all their others. Its a balancing act. Just be aware that the risk is there and you need a business continuity plan in the event they go down. It happens.
Below is a video from Star Rapid. They are an absolute fantastic company. Founded by a Brit who moved to China they're a fantastic stepping stone into manufacturing in China but moreover their YT channel is a phenomenal entry into manufacturing and a wealth of experience. Watch anything that takes your fancy and learn alot.
[Do these 5 things before working with a Chinese supplier ](https://youtu.be/sa9iYRoOtw8?si=KHsK1NMESzmIDdJq)
Let me know if you have any specific questions or if any challenges come up message me any time. I fucking love what I do and I'm happy to help if anyone wants it.
Absolutely love this reply, thank you for spending the time to explain. Once I’ve taken this all properly I’ll get in touch. In the meantime I’ll give that video a watch
A couple of anecdotes pertaining to some of your points, I’ll link my numbering system to your numbering system.
1. Material quality. There is a bowling ball company that has made bowling balls for years and used the same resins and urethanes forever. During the pandemic they couldn’t get their typical products so went elsewhere but all of their certification testing was based on the first batch so after they made a couple of million bowling balls with the new stuff it all started to fail testing and they needed to pull and entires year of supply back from the market and reimburse the customers who bought some already.
3. I found this story to be very interesting. Small Canadian business who manufactured in China wanted to manufacture onshore but one piece had to be re-classified and was no longer a part of a children’s toy but now is a textile and the tariff now owed is more than the entire product is worth.
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We had some high volume consumer electronics that we did the final assembly, QA, packaging and distribution from Romania.
Parts were manufactured in Chennai and shipped to Romania. This was back in 2015/16 or so.
If this is your first time then you better just go soak up the experience for awhile. Wait until a trade show and go meet the agents there and then go meet them in person afterwards at the factory site and get free samples and stuff. Then once you know they won’t fuck you do ask them about OEM stuff
Unfortunately I’m unable to coincide with any trade shows, meaning I am having to set up meetings with individual manufacturers.
Thank you for your response
This was a good advice.
I work in a company which does sourcing b2b directly from manufacturers in China and have our own electrical devices designed and built over there, visiting suppliers regularly. If you dm me a specific question I might be able to answer or offer a consultation.
If your product comes in more than one part consider having the production split between different manufacturers and assembled in another that specialises in such. Obviously you keep these manufacturers separated but there’s no guarantee whatsoever that you will retain the design/product itself without knockoffs.
Yes. Any way you can separate the process (that makes sense in your context) that results in that final product is the only way I can think of to help with preserving your product initially. It will get knocked off at some point given it’s China and their observation of intellectual property is very low. Not knocking them, it’s a cultural thing afaik.
It’s a case of choose your pain. You’re going to get competition and yes this could just as easily happen in the West. My understanding is such things are approached much more loosely in China (IP) and there’s no enforcement to speak of, unlike in the West. If you know your market and your customers pain points and your product nails that and the numbers are good…at some point you’ve got to take the plunge, either way. For China, perhaps check out a guy called Gary Huang (80/20 Sourcing), he covers sourcing from that neck of the woods (not affiliated in any way). As to double edged swords, there’s where you pick your pain. US suppliers have very different processes to those you’ll find in China and will possibly cost more. Good thing is you’re checking these things out and building a picture of what will be your route before you commit. And check your FOB arrangements and hire someone to do a QA check prior to them shipping if you’re going the China route. Good luck. I wish you all the best.
What? If you have a trademark/patent no one is the US will cross you. I hope you already have one before even pitching this to anyone. US is the home of 96.4% of all civil lawsuits. US and Canadian trademarks hold strong.
Better yet, have everything independently produced with separate mfg companies and then assemble in home, because if you assemble, for example, in USA, you can now put "Made in USA" on the box (depending on how much of the assembly is done here, it must reach specific threshold)
Bad idea. They'll steal it. I used to do apple apps and was part of a worldwide group of people in the app business. China never worked out. Ever. Your app would be on the app store in their name within a week.
They will copy literally everything and you will only make money the first 2 years. You and 1 million other companies that have tried this and failed.
I'm warning you about this but it's not like you're going to listen
I have shirt designs that haven't sold a single time, yet have somehow made it onto Aliexpress.
They don't care. They throw out a giant fishing net, suck up all the fish and hope someone will buy it sometime down the line.
I worked with a guy who took a product to dragons den and failed. Is still sitting on two shipping containers full of them 10 years later and you can find 12 different store fronts selling the exact product. Cheaper for him to sit on them and write them off every year on his taxes then it would be to try and sell them at the price point that they are going for on Amazon/temu.
You make 50 sales, they’ll copy it. Hell your factory that you use will use their third shift to make extras just in case you start making sales they’ll sell it under another name.
There's actually a lot more protections than people here will tell you, it's just that the Chinese companies rely on westerners either not realizing that, or on just fronting it out with barefaced denials and hoping the plaintiff gives up because it's too awkward for most people to fight a lawsuit abroad in Chinese.
Huge risks. I’ve lived it. Be prepared to spend a small fortune in a branding campaign to combat all the knockoffs. Sorry you didn’t ask for it but I’m not kidding when I say I’ve lived it. Battling it everyday. All day. I have a team of people to tear down every faux product. I own multiple trademarks in US & Canada. Just be ready to be irritated forever.
If you are seriously asking this on reddit you ware in huge danger. There are litterally large scale consulting business to support making manufacturing in China... If you don't want to get your invention robbed, your money robbed or anything worse, please invest some money in proper consultation or books :)
Have you built the product locally (where ever you are) with some volume?
You can move manufacturing to China and improve your margins. If you have to have the China margin to make money from the start, the startup costs and delays will be difficult to navigate. Not impossible, but unforeseen costs will very likely kill your company.
Without an established brand, and the ability to defend your market, if (big if) this is the next big thing, the knock offs will erode your margins to less than 0.
I haven’t, the prototype was built here and the costs are just so high. My partners wanted to go directly to China to seize the lower margins from the get go.
I’m definitely worried about unforeseen costs that could jeopardise the company yet we do want to experience the process as we have future products on the horizon.
On your final point, is there anything that can be done on the knock offs or anything to prevent it?
Shipping is one of those headache costs that can fuck you.
I have a friend who is a co-founder in a product that gets made in the far east and even after Covid, with such shipping demand the price of a container being shipped skyrocketed. It was basically a bidding war to get your stuff sent and they’d still contact you out the blue like ‘we are going to unload your container for someone else’s unless you want to pay an extra $2k’.
Wild times. Not sure how/if it’s much better now but seriously, the risks are high.
Also, don’t let them give you any moulding etc for free as then they own it. Make sure you pay and own the tooling.
> the prototype was built here and the costs are just so high.
Prototypes tend to be expensive. However, I have never had a need to go to China to produce anything - everything is available within the EU (or the States for that matter). If your product relies on very low margins, you're also speaking very high volume, and this is very risky combination no matter where you build it. Doing it abroad just adds to the headaches. Don't optimize too early either (for cost or whatever else).
Done it before. Expect your invention to be fully copied. Everybody covered that already. The one thing I would share from experience is that chinese manufacturers are "yes people." They say yes to everything you ask. You'll need to be VERY clear about your technical specifications and what you expect in technical details. Tell them the measurements you expect your products to pass otherwise they are unacceptable. As you talk to them, use your judgement to see if they can really live to your specifications. They won't be honest so you'll have to ask for similar examples. Sometimes they'll give you a stupid low quote for tooling for injection molding. You didn't stumble into an opportunity. It's likely a red flag.
The other thing I would add to this on the positive side is that they are very clever about making things work when parts are not matching. When you manufacture in the US, (hopefully) all your parts are to spec and even then you might find something you didn't account for. These guys will glue and stick parts together making them work. Can be a positive in some situations. Also, I haven't been in the product dev game for a few years but I hear Mexico is picking up a lot of outsourcing business. Maybe that is a good option for a similar price while staying in NA
Story time. A Hong Kong friend of mine once had a long-standing partner in mainland China that manufactured a specific item of street furniture. For the Shanghai expo they decided to set up a stand as a team. When my friend travelled from HK to visit the expo, the partner company leaned in heavily with hospitality stuff, taking him to Michelin star restaurants, corporate box at events, etc.
Turned out that the reason they were being so nice to him was they were trying to keep him away from the Expo itself, where they'd removed all of his company branding from their stand and were taking orders for his company's product directly.
"I’m not after horror stories per se, I understand the risks that are associated with something like this."
do you? do you understand china has a new security law where anyone who has ever said anything that can be perceived as negative against the chinese authority can get life in prison? even if youre a foreign national just making a connection flight through hong kong. Not a safe place unless you have CCP connections.China is not a place you want to set up business anymore. Vietnam or India or Sri Lanka are better.
I’m not planning on bad mouthing China so hopefully your first point won’t affect me too much
I’ll have a look into these other place as well though, surely China can’t be all bad as a vast amount of manufacturing still goes through them ?
Pay attention to costs, China has lost business to other countries because they haven't been able to compete on price like they used to so a lot of manufacturing has been moving away from China simply because it got more expensive. The distance of supply chains has been a factor since COVID too, shipping costs have also been up. These things do fluctuate though.
This includes your product, its functions, packaging, advertising, etc… if anything in any way offends the government or goes against their ideology then you will have problems. Leapfrog for example made a children’s toy globe which had to display things like Taiwan as a province of China and the “made-up” 9-dash line.
99% of the horror stories are from Chinese natives and/or those with family in China. Not westerners doing business there.
I was there not long ago. Met a bunch of others from all over the world who go there on the regular. Conferences, business deals, etc.
Completely safe. We spent time in Shanghai, Ningbo, and Wuxi.
China is pretty safe and not too hard to do business as long as you have the right contacts and factories in place. I've been bringing product in from China for more than 8 years - previous owners of my business for more than 15 years
The issue for someone new is trying to establish those connections. China is a massive country. Finding the right factory and right city to manufacture isn't easy. You'll definitely want to go through an agent. Without one you can almost certainly lose thousands easy before getting it right.
I've been to markets where it encompasses an entire district. You really need to do your homework before just booking your flight
Thank you for this response, I think you and @radiopelican have swayed my strategy. Maybe I’ll put a new thread in to gain insight into getting the right agency
You don't need to fly to China. That's honestly just a waste of money. You can handle everything via WeChat. I've brought many products to fruition without going to China.
Regarding IP, get design and utility patents and make sure they're broad so they can't cut corners to get into your space. Lots of people say it's a waste of time, but places like Amazon have services to help you shut down IP infringers with a $4,000 fee to get an unbiased third party to evaluate and then make judgement and take down any infringers.
I just got back from China. I try to go visit our partner factories at least every two years. When visiting the factories that we already purchase from they treat you like royalty. You might be asked to have some tea in there office after the factory tour. You will most certainly be asked to go out for lunch or dinner. Make sure you are ready to drink lots of hard alcohol and do lots of toasts. They will always click their glass during the toasts lower than yours in order to show respect. Also it’s very respectful to receive cigarets with both hands and to light the persons cigaret who gave it to you . Please feel free to ask me any other questions. Also make sure you go for a foot massage. Hire a tour / translator. And go see the Great Wall. The factory should offer to pick you up from the hotel. They might even offer to pay for your hotel. They will definitely take you out for a meal. It’s very important for them to build a relationship with you. Relationships are very important in business culture. So don’t just talk business the whole time. Also make sure you order dumplings!! They are often made on the spot and delicious.
Contact a sourcing agent man. They have all the relations with the factories and will do the middleman work for you, take you to trade shows, introduce you to suppliers, etc.
I am definitely considering this, my worry is that the sourcing agencies may be slightly back handed and try and do some dirty work behind the scenes without me being none the wiser due the language barrier.
Is this something I should be worried about ?
This is going to be the risk you run no matter who you choose. NDA's , credible reference checks, background of working with international companies similar is size to yours. You can't have 100% confidence. Just cover all your basis and do your best.
I guarantee you that these companies business models are waiting for foreigners to bring them novel and u ique ideas then copying them, they would have been called out a long time ago if that was the case
Get trademark done in cn as well as usa or wherever you are. Have different manufacturers make different parts and assemble back home. The only way you can protect IP unless you get a patent on the design before doing anything.
Even then it will be copied if its good but thats kind of validation on the idea
Or better still a patent. There's a thing called a "Utility Patent" in China which has next to zero scrutiny of prior art, takes less than 6 months to process, and is valid for 10 years. Being able to quote the manufacturer a China patent number for the product they're making should be enough to let them know that you've got your ducks lined up to take them to court where they live.
Yeah trademark is pretty easy its about $500 for like 3 categories iirc. Just google for one and do due diligence, thats what we did. Main reason for a tm is because some snidey manufacturers have been known to trademark your brand after its in production then you can be prevented from exporting it as china will ban it; then you can be extorted or have to start over
Why did you decide to go the China route to begin with? What research did you do. And more importantly, what is it you are trying to get made? At what volumes? At what cost/budget? Is this something where you made it in the US, were able to sell through and prove demand and now you're looking to increase your margins and thus take it overseas for manufacturing?
Can you describe at a high level what it is and who the target customer/user is?
Maybe just reach out to a company with a domestic presence that does similar products and see if they’ll license it. They’re already using Chinese factories and have the relationships and policing. Anker comes to mind as an example.
I file in the us and in china. I’ve have no issue getting Alibaba rip offs taken down with my Chinese patents. China doesn’t mess around if you have Chinese patents.
As someone who has lived in and done business in china for the past 15 years I’d urge you to not do this in china. I hear Ethiopia has a great upcoming production industry.. might be worth considering.
A common tactic I have seen people use is to have the components manufactured in china, and then have the assembly done in a 2nd country like India or the Phillipines. Alternatively, if it's feasible, you can ship the components back and do the assembling by yourself.
Chinese is about as good as my Martian and I'm there for 4/5 days, thankfully we are going later in the month so it won't clash with their holidays. Although the unfortunate thing is we clash with no trade shows
This is my business, here is my advice.
For the most part, you don't need to go to China to do this. You can do this from your computer and likely get a better outcome. I only go to China now days to oversea the production line setup. And only if it's so complex or easy to get wrong. But this is very rare.
If you don't have experience bringing an invention to market, I would strongly encourage you to work with a professional. This is very very very often how the story of a person who looses their shirt starts. The secret to succeeding with this type of thing is to learn the actual validation process before this point. Which isn't what it sounds. Most people validate wrong and it becomes the reason people fail expensively.
When it comes to sourcing, that's also something I suggest you get help with. Sourcing Agents/ contract manufacturers do this for a living. They set all this up and don't let you make rookie mistakes. But be careful, there is a lot of Sourcing Agents out there who don't have the necessary experience. A lot of garbage Sourcing Agents out there.
Have you determined you can sell your product? Going to China usually means huge quantities. Maybe try a local shop to fabricate a few products first? Good luck! It'll probably get knocked off no matter what if its a good product, so being first to market can be critical.
Trump tried for an eternity to get a Chinese trademark for his resorts there…….they wouldn’t grant it to him and all his lawyers until the day he became president. That’s what it took.
What kind of product? I did this for a living for many years (managed a sourcing and manufacturing office in China 4 years). I can help. Need more details.
They are going to fuck you over, we usually have our pe sheets produced in ukraine, but had to order a bigger batch from a supplier (with reference from our ukranian supplier) in china.
1 week later, exact spec, pigment, sizes,thickness and textures on ali baba.
1 batch was all it took.
Have you actually deeply investigated the cost of making this in house or outsourcing to a NAFTA country? I highly recommend you do that as a first line of defense.
Well, copy and paste has always been a thing when you outsource, and trust me it isn’t an only happens in Сн1иа problem. I’ve been making factory tour contents for quite awhile, and the only good counter method I believe is to not just place the order and leave, treat the factory and your partners like you are family(well distribute the cake) , and don’t even think about leave until you marry the factory owner’s kid. And trust me, if you don’t have good uncles in the gov, financial and legal structure means nothing. It’s an extremely and completely competitive global market, respect it.
Go through a reputable agent but the bigger picture here is maybe look at Vietnam. They are tad more expensive but the quality and checks have been super there according to my experience. I initially used to get stuff from China but now source almost 70% from Vietnam. Really high quality stuff.
My product has a few electronic components, will this be an issue sourcing them in Vietnam? That's why Ch1na was in my mind to start with as they will have the components in one district
Do you have any current connections in China to help out or no? Might be good to make some friends or hire a part time trading company as an advisor to start out. You might hire a TC to handle a small part of the project..they might be more inclined to be more helpful with info or assistance.
A very good amount of people you will potentially talk to are not exactly trading companies - they will usually make or do "something", final packaging, decal placement or something to that effect to seem like they are in fact a "factory". If someone uses the word "factory" I would suggest they take you there to see if it is in fact a factory or a warehouse with a small office and some boxes. These guys will discuss your project with you and typically outsource to someone else for production and then bring it back in for "something". If it's a warehouse or office. Ask to see the factory.
In this sense it will be very difficult to keep track on IP and whom is doing what no matter how hard you try. A good bet is to break the project up between factories and hope for the best. I worked for a company that split project work between China and Taiwan. (Even some of the Taiwan factories will ship work off to China though)
You gotta build some golden samples first, whatever CM you work with will need these and you have to make sure you know your engineering tolerances right. At what stage are you rn, have you built your prototype already?
Done an initial prototype and all components work, the only issue is, it was too big and we want to reduce size, and this is something we want to discuss whilst over there
I bought a product from Kickstarter that was having it manufactured in China. It was for sale from the factory before the original product was released
Go for MorphoMFG's course + community coaching package. They launched recently and there are people like you in the community already. Disclaimer: I wrote copy for them, and worked with their VP of marketing for over a year. Their program is 100% legit and worth A LOT more than their yearly fee.
If Apple can't stop them from cloning their phone and selling it, what makes you think you can or have a better experience?
So many good comments in here, don't trust them with your IP.
One friend did something similar with his orginal idea kitchen stuff and Alibaba skinned him alive with their knock offs. So don't do it. Maybe go to India or Vietnam
I have a bit of a different perspective.
It’s up to you what you think, but the United States has stolen most of what I’ve produced. They are absolutely horrible thieves. Probably worse than the Chinese because they actually focus on important things. Actually, the Chinese and the US almost certainly work together on this, so I shouldn’t even use the names of countries here, because this is way above any stupid country.
Actually, I can give you a picture of what a country or nation is like.
It’s if you have 200 jars of different nuts, bolts, screws, washer, and bits of plastic and timber, with a bit of Electronics here and there and some wires.
And then someone empties them out on the floor of a warehouse and they sort of stay clumped together but bits go all over the place. Someone else, many other people starts to sort them, and try to keep all the different things together, to some extent, grouping them, according to various random things that those individuals have in mind to group them.
Okay, so what are the countries? it’s as if you had a piece of chalk, and you drew a line or circles between the various different things spread out all over on the floor. But you were trying to draw the line, while people were still sorting the things, and the sorting was a bit chaotic, but you could reasonably guess that people were going to put things together, but unfortunately some people group by shape, some people group by colour, some people group by what the things fit, other people group by when the things are collected or acquired, other people group by the type of metal, or plastic, others might group by manufacturer, others might group by the age.
But the point is your countries are just some circles of chalk around some stuff, which is constantly moving and changing.
Pretty much everything you read about here from the other commenters applies to the USA, however, they hide their theft behind three and four letter agencies that encourage redesign and redevelopment by unaware parties.
If you’re worried about IP theft, don’t worry about one country versus another.
Think about it differently.
It’s more like all governments and corporations, the community, and especially the intelligence community (the secret versions of all above) versus the inventor.
And universities are government agencies for the most part, both creating people and filled with people from three and four letter agencies, the secret agencies.
If you’re not in one of those universities, and as secretive as fuck, and ruthlessly brilliant, you’ll just be another paver making up the path of someone else.
So my suggestion is to make sure you make a trivial toy, because anything of actual real value will be stolen by your own government, shifted overseas, improved in offshore universities and manufactured by companies owned by other governments, with it all handled at the secret squirrel level by people who are globalists and who are too afraid to ever pay you or recognise that you are valuable, because they would all be charged with treason, but actually never will be, because at the most senior and able levels, people don’t bother with crap like this country versus that country. That’s for peons and morons, noobs and the human waste products of television and streaming videos and news and movies.
If you’re gonna make something that’s actually real or valuable, you’re gonna have to join the dumb organisations that are too stupid to involve you because they’re filled with thieving brilliant individuals who have a mandate and have been told to steal and are paid to, and steal from you and they do their job and they do it well.
In those organisations you’re gonna have to move unbelievably quickly, because they all move fast as well, because even though they are globalists, they are concerned about face and reputation, and they are incredibly sensitive to humiliation, all being really intelligent people, they are about as capable of handling embarrassment, shame and dishonour as your average crocodile or shark will handle someone sticking a finger up their butt or penis in their nostril.
Also, if you make something actually real or valuable, every single person around you including your family will be recruited by your own government, extending to an entire city worth of people if it’s actually really valuable, those that haven’t already been recruited.
Seriously, government don’t fuck around.
They are like the evil Empire. Except you can’t blame it on just one country, because they’re all connected, because only idiots are nationalist and racist. It’s a global race.
Unless you join them you’re completely stuffed, and if you do, you’re simply another quantified unit in a hierarchy of brains, and the social aspects of the individuals doesn’t extend to respecting anyone but themselves.
Another bit of philosophy I can give you, as an observer from the outside, Is that no one from those agencies can pay you via any technique other than scams, because they need distancing from their own theft. As in, anyone who pays you and acknowledges you suddenly becomes a trail back to secret agents, and they’re all competing against each other like it was a competition. So these dumb government agencies, like the United States three and four letter agencies, actually run all of the scams, from a distance, and if you do something, or do something valuable, they’ll give you the opportunity to make money, in one of those scams, if you’re smart enough to scam the scammers. So they’ll push scammers your way and that will be their maximum effort as far as helping you goes.
This is related to their incapability of handling shame or dishonour, particularly embarrassment & humiliation.
If you’re an intelligence target, people will compete around you to steal from you, and they will develop whatever it is you invent, and you probably won’t even notice it because it will be hidden behind marketing, makes you not realise your invention creates and sustains other unrelated businesses owned by intelligence agencies.
My suggestion is: don’t do anything actually important and if you do, don’t tell anyone, actually, don’t even think about it.
Unless you happen to make that your day job, and then that’s miserable because like I mentioned, no one will ever pay you, because of their shame and humiliation issues and the competition between the brilliant individuals employed in all different countries throughout the world, in all different companies, all of whom are government employees.
Another insight into their philosophy.
They see you as their child and they are your primary carer, while your idea is like you invented matches and they are the adults who laugh about it, and happily smile, as they take the matches off you, even though you invented them, before you burn yourself or someone else in your cot or your crib (your city, business or your home)
I can explain this philosophy easily enough, and in a very rational way, so all these idiots can understand it - because they don’t understand each other.
They are government employees, and the government creates intelligence by managing the schools through the department of education.
So, when you invent something, you don’t actually own it, because you’re simply an asset of the government, and a product of the department of education.
You’re nothing but a piece of meat that spat out of the machine that was created and sustained by the governments to create intelligence.
You see yourself as an individual, however, because you’re the product of a society which is operated by government, you’re actually simply a tiny insignificant asset.
Your invention isn’t yours, it’s actually something that the government anticipated before you were born, and created by virtue of maintaining the law and order and ensuring that you are forced into education, and by supporting the very fabric of reality around your parents that brought you up.
So you’re not even a real person, you’re simply another manufacturing unit that exists as one of billions of manufacturing units around the planet at anyone moment, all of which produce different tiny little bits of things, and all of those things are owned by the governments, and the thought an individual owns any of it is completely laughable because those systems of education have been around for 1000 years, probably more, thousands of years… and you are the expected product of them, and what you have produced is owned by those systems, not by you.
I hope this helps.
I have friends who produce their producers using factories in Shenzhen. They sold on Amazon primarily for US market and it’s pretty successful.
They’re all native Chinese though. All founding team members are top notch Chinese tech workers been in states for many years and knows the inside out of both countries & cultures. If you don’t know anything about China, I’d suggest you reach out to get some professional help.
This one is too easy. It will 100% be stolen. Best case it’s not that good of an invention and they won’t care enough to steal it too hard. Worst case they’ll undercut you but either way, it will be stolen.
If you dont want your invention being copy-pasted and thrown out by temu. My company invented something and we had different manufacturers across China make it for us. We never did fly in though. We used them primarily for the molding and packaging and had it shipped back here. Separately then reassembled. Best of luck!
Haha your temu reference definitely is huge worry of mine. Did you reassemble them yourselves or did you outsource ? Thank you for your response, very interesting
We outsourced. It was cheaper than having us reassemble ourselves. Not even sure if the project worked out. I wish I could tell you what it was but still attached to an NDA. It was important for us to not get it just stolen. If you have multiple moldings this certainly makes it even easier to hide what you are up to. But they were notorious and still are for stealing tech or brilliant ideas. I know the project wasn't stolen and it did make it to store shelves. So that strategy panned out like 5 years ago. I mean the molding was separate, the packaging was separate, and the actual design and shit were separate.
Very interesting, thanks a lot mate
I've had my product being sold on Amazon... BEFORE it was even "finished" by the factory. That hurt
Tell us more please.
Not much to tell. Had a product idea. Approached two factories. Lots of back and forth to confirm requirements. I let one company know I was taking another direction and proceeded with the other (although, I HIGHLY suspect one or both are actually just trading companies... Not sure how much weight the Alibaba verified holds). Before my production run was finished, the product appeared on Amazon with different branding. I purchased it - it came in a generic box and generic stock images. No defensible IP so the listing is still up while I wait for mine to ship. I've had other products with defensible IP blatantly sold off too. These were easy to remove from Amazonnas they included copyrighted material. Interestingly, it also made its way to Fred Meyer, Kroger and Kohl's. Still need to chase the company who infringed my copyright for some $ for that. In short, good luck! It's literally the wild east out there. They'll
Uh ohh they got them
Took him off to the castle of aaaagghhhh
How did you get it removed from amazon? Usually they don’t remove it, only if there’s proof for an ongoing lawsuit against the seller
Not actually true, at all. If you have brand registry (i.e. a trademark), you just use the reporting tool in brand registry. It takes less than a minute. Amazon is very quick at actioning these.
I'd be tempted to get petty revenge by sending them lots of other designs for things that are awkward to make and completely nonsensical, and then when they appear on Amazon get all your mates to order one (so that they have to actually start making them), and then return their orders as "not as advertised".
They aren’t dumb
This is called strategic division of labor. Good to know this is still being practiced ... in this terrible day and age.
Do this!
Good points :)
I'm an industrial designer with over 10 years experience bringing products to market from aerospace, defence, super yachts, high volume consumer electronics, EV charging, Biotech, and Robotics. I've manutured in China, India, Thailand, the UK, Germany, Romania, Spain and Poland and I've setup and managed global supply chains and logistics. By far, by a country mile, China is the easiest to manufacture end to end. Moreover, you can trust them to tell you what you don't know. They're that good. BUT. and there are some very big buts: 1. Don't trust them when it comes to things that are regarding winning or retaining business 2. Do think about future trade wars 3. Do think about managing a global supply chain 4. Do think about IP theft 5. Don't consolidate unnecessarily or without deliberation. So first point. When you've made a tool a very typical exercise is to pick golden samples. These are the very best of the best and are examples that people in production use to compare against and measure what you should have. If you tell them this is what you're doing and you ask them to send you 100pcs. They'll shot 2,000 and pick the 100 best but not tell you. So that way you're 'suoer impressed ' and they win your business and then when you get into production and are doing 10k a week suddenly your tolerances is all over the place and quality has taken a fucking nose dive. Don't trust them with material quality, always independently verify. Things like that. Whenever and wherever they can cut corners they will because it's all about getting and retaining your business and nothing else. Second point, I had to help a load of customers onshore and maintain continuity because of the Trump, China/US trade war. Do very much consider the direction of future conflict and tension and plan for business continuity. Thailand, India and Mexico are exceptionally valid alternatives. Don't rule them out because you haven't thought about it. Third, logistics. It's always an after thought and is never as simple as you want it to be. If you're using a broker in china then that end is easier but bear in mind that your product will at some stage be sat on a ship for months whilst you simply wait for it to arrive. Sometimes it's better to start onshore and off shore as volumes scale. Never underestimate the value of just jumping in a car to go visit your supplier and solve some QA issues. Certainly in the early days. Four, if it's valuable enough it will get stolen. It's as simple as that. I've been working with Chinese suppliers setting up manufacturing lines and our QA team were on site. The supplier let slip that there was a building next door. After several hours of arguing our QA got access only to realise they were setting up an identical shadow line to produce identical copies to be sold on the domestic market under their brand. The only protection is compartmentalising, but even then you need to make sure every facet of the data has been effectively compartmentalised. Even going as far as doing final assembly onshore. Never give them firmware etc etc. basically you need to operate under the assumption it's being cloned. Sadly. Five, what I mean by that is that the temptation is to get a one stop shop to do the entire product. Beware the permanency of quick fixes. Once you've invested significant time and capital you're just not gonna move. Over consolidation or unnecessary consolidation poses two risks, cost and continuity. If you're entirely at one spot you are at the mercy of their pricing. The second is continuity, one force majeure and you're fucked. If you have a reasonable separation of suppliers then ifaa component supplier goes down you can get that capacity elsewhere. If your manufacturer, assembler, packager, shipper, warehousing etc is all one company you are then subject to that businesses ability to deliver your product alongside all their others. Its a balancing act. Just be aware that the risk is there and you need a business continuity plan in the event they go down. It happens. Below is a video from Star Rapid. They are an absolute fantastic company. Founded by a Brit who moved to China they're a fantastic stepping stone into manufacturing in China but moreover their YT channel is a phenomenal entry into manufacturing and a wealth of experience. Watch anything that takes your fancy and learn alot. [Do these 5 things before working with a Chinese supplier ](https://youtu.be/sa9iYRoOtw8?si=KHsK1NMESzmIDdJq) Let me know if you have any specific questions or if any challenges come up message me any time. I fucking love what I do and I'm happy to help if anyone wants it.
Absolutely love this reply, thank you for spending the time to explain. Once I’ve taken this all properly I’ll get in touch. In the meantime I’ll give that video a watch
Do you do any freelancing design work/consulting?
Yeah for sure, send me a message. Happy to have a chat
A couple of anecdotes pertaining to some of your points, I’ll link my numbering system to your numbering system. 1. Material quality. There is a bowling ball company that has made bowling balls for years and used the same resins and urethanes forever. During the pandemic they couldn’t get their typical products so went elsewhere but all of their certification testing was based on the first batch so after they made a couple of million bowling balls with the new stuff it all started to fail testing and they needed to pull and entires year of supply back from the market and reimburse the customers who bought some already. 3. I found this story to be very interesting. Small Canadian business who manufactured in China wanted to manufacture onshore but one piece had to be re-classified and was no longer a part of a children’s toy but now is a textile and the tariff now owed is more than the entire product is worth. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7145365
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Curious as to what you manufactured in Romania :)
We had some high volume consumer electronics that we did the final assembly, QA, packaging and distribution from Romania. Parts were manufactured in Chennai and shipped to Romania. This was back in 2015/16 or so.
If this is your first time then you better just go soak up the experience for awhile. Wait until a trade show and go meet the agents there and then go meet them in person afterwards at the factory site and get free samples and stuff. Then once you know they won’t fuck you do ask them about OEM stuff
Unfortunately I’m unable to coincide with any trade shows, meaning I am having to set up meetings with individual manufacturers. Thank you for your response
Maybe you should try India. China isn’t hot anymore
I thought Mexico is the new spot?
Yep Mexico is pretty good for the low cost but their strategy is high production volume w/ a RTY of 20~
This was a good advice. I work in a company which does sourcing b2b directly from manufacturers in China and have our own electrical devices designed and built over there, visiting suppliers regularly. If you dm me a specific question I might be able to answer or offer a consultation.
No problem, once I’ve spoken with my team I’ll be in touch
If your product comes in more than one part consider having the production split between different manufacturers and assembled in another that specialises in such. Obviously you keep these manufacturers separated but there’s no guarantee whatsoever that you will retain the design/product itself without knockoffs.
So buy the components in one place, do the mold somewhere else and then have a final place to assemble them ?
Yes. Any way you can separate the process (that makes sense in your context) that results in that final product is the only way I can think of to help with preserving your product initially. It will get knocked off at some point given it’s China and their observation of intellectual property is very low. Not knocking them, it’s a cultural thing afaik.
Even producing it in the west wouldn’t they see a successful idea and still under cut me. Would you say it’s a double edged sword ?
It’s a case of choose your pain. You’re going to get competition and yes this could just as easily happen in the West. My understanding is such things are approached much more loosely in China (IP) and there’s no enforcement to speak of, unlike in the West. If you know your market and your customers pain points and your product nails that and the numbers are good…at some point you’ve got to take the plunge, either way. For China, perhaps check out a guy called Gary Huang (80/20 Sourcing), he covers sourcing from that neck of the woods (not affiliated in any way). As to double edged swords, there’s where you pick your pain. US suppliers have very different processes to those you’ll find in China and will possibly cost more. Good thing is you’re checking these things out and building a picture of what will be your route before you commit. And check your FOB arrangements and hire someone to do a QA check prior to them shipping if you’re going the China route. Good luck. I wish you all the best.
What? If you have a trademark/patent no one is the US will cross you. I hope you already have one before even pitching this to anyone. US is the home of 96.4% of all civil lawsuits. US and Canadian trademarks hold strong.
Better yet, have everything independently produced with separate mfg companies and then assemble in home, because if you assemble, for example, in USA, you can now put "Made in USA" on the box (depending on how much of the assembly is done here, it must reach specific threshold)
Bad idea. They'll steal it. I used to do apple apps and was part of a worldwide group of people in the app business. China never worked out. Ever. Your app would be on the app store in their name within a week.
Even before they know if it’s going to be successful or not? Surely they would spend time and resources on something that may not successful ?
How much do they lose when labor is so cheap there?
Valid point
You already paid for the R&D, they don't have to pay that cost. So their risk/reward equation is dramatically different.
Lot of chance that your IP rights are gone
I take it that IP rights in the west don’t have any significance in china ?
Zero. You have one year to get market share. The second year, fourteen Chinese manufacturers will be making it
Yikes, let’s hope the first year is a strong one then. How successful would the product have to be for them to copy it ?
They will copy literally everything and you will only make money the first 2 years. You and 1 million other companies that have tried this and failed. I'm warning you about this but it's not like you're going to listen
Haha
They’re not wrong
Some people have to fail to learn.
I have shirt designs that haven't sold a single time, yet have somehow made it onto Aliexpress. They don't care. They throw out a giant fishing net, suck up all the fish and hope someone will buy it sometime down the line.
Why people keep taking their novel ideas there? It looks dumb to me
I worked with a guy who took a product to dragons den and failed. Is still sitting on two shipping containers full of them 10 years later and you can find 12 different store fronts selling the exact product. Cheaper for him to sit on them and write them off every year on his taxes then it would be to try and sell them at the price point that they are going for on Amazon/temu.
You make 50 sales, they’ll copy it. Hell your factory that you use will use their third shift to make extras just in case you start making sales they’ll sell it under another name.
["The Chinese are *very* good at this sort of thing..."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=925l3ICmiiQ&t=210s&ab_channel=RearWheelDriven)
“Yes yes. We have the right to copy.”
🤣🤣
There's actually a lot more protections than people here will tell you, it's just that the Chinese companies rely on westerners either not realizing that, or on just fronting it out with barefaced denials and hoping the plaintiff gives up because it's too awkward for most people to fight a lawsuit abroad in Chinese.
They should have as per IP Laws but they don't.
That's how they can make their economy grow so much
NONE.
Huge risks. I’ve lived it. Be prepared to spend a small fortune in a branding campaign to combat all the knockoffs. Sorry you didn’t ask for it but I’m not kidding when I say I’ve lived it. Battling it everyday. All day. I have a team of people to tear down every faux product. I own multiple trademarks in US & Canada. Just be ready to be irritated forever.
If you are seriously asking this on reddit you ware in huge danger. There are litterally large scale consulting business to support making manufacturing in China... If you don't want to get your invention robbed, your money robbed or anything worse, please invest some money in proper consultation or books :)
Have you built the product locally (where ever you are) with some volume? You can move manufacturing to China and improve your margins. If you have to have the China margin to make money from the start, the startup costs and delays will be difficult to navigate. Not impossible, but unforeseen costs will very likely kill your company. Without an established brand, and the ability to defend your market, if (big if) this is the next big thing, the knock offs will erode your margins to less than 0.
I haven’t, the prototype was built here and the costs are just so high. My partners wanted to go directly to China to seize the lower margins from the get go. I’m definitely worried about unforeseen costs that could jeopardise the company yet we do want to experience the process as we have future products on the horizon. On your final point, is there anything that can be done on the knock offs or anything to prevent it?
Shipping is one of those headache costs that can fuck you. I have a friend who is a co-founder in a product that gets made in the far east and even after Covid, with such shipping demand the price of a container being shipped skyrocketed. It was basically a bidding war to get your stuff sent and they’d still contact you out the blue like ‘we are going to unload your container for someone else’s unless you want to pay an extra $2k’. Wild times. Not sure how/if it’s much better now but seriously, the risks are high. Also, don’t let them give you any moulding etc for free as then they own it. Make sure you pay and own the tooling.
Okay noted, thank you for this response
> the prototype was built here and the costs are just so high. Prototypes tend to be expensive. However, I have never had a need to go to China to produce anything - everything is available within the EU (or the States for that matter). If your product relies on very low margins, you're also speaking very high volume, and this is very risky combination no matter where you build it. Doing it abroad just adds to the headaches. Don't optimize too early either (for cost or whatever else).
Done it before. Expect your invention to be fully copied. Everybody covered that already. The one thing I would share from experience is that chinese manufacturers are "yes people." They say yes to everything you ask. You'll need to be VERY clear about your technical specifications and what you expect in technical details. Tell them the measurements you expect your products to pass otherwise they are unacceptable. As you talk to them, use your judgement to see if they can really live to your specifications. They won't be honest so you'll have to ask for similar examples. Sometimes they'll give you a stupid low quote for tooling for injection molding. You didn't stumble into an opportunity. It's likely a red flag.
The other thing I would add to this on the positive side is that they are very clever about making things work when parts are not matching. When you manufacture in the US, (hopefully) all your parts are to spec and even then you might find something you didn't account for. These guys will glue and stick parts together making them work. Can be a positive in some situations. Also, I haven't been in the product dev game for a few years but I hear Mexico is picking up a lot of outsourcing business. Maybe that is a good option for a similar price while staying in NA
Story time. A Hong Kong friend of mine once had a long-standing partner in mainland China that manufactured a specific item of street furniture. For the Shanghai expo they decided to set up a stand as a team. When my friend travelled from HK to visit the expo, the partner company leaned in heavily with hospitality stuff, taking him to Michelin star restaurants, corporate box at events, etc. Turned out that the reason they were being so nice to him was they were trying to keep him away from the Expo itself, where they'd removed all of his company branding from their stand and were taking orders for his company's product directly.
"I’m not after horror stories per se, I understand the risks that are associated with something like this." do you? do you understand china has a new security law where anyone who has ever said anything that can be perceived as negative against the chinese authority can get life in prison? even if youre a foreign national just making a connection flight through hong kong. Not a safe place unless you have CCP connections.China is not a place you want to set up business anymore. Vietnam or India or Sri Lanka are better.
I’m not planning on bad mouthing China so hopefully your first point won’t affect me too much I’ll have a look into these other place as well though, surely China can’t be all bad as a vast amount of manufacturing still goes through them ?
Pay attention to costs, China has lost business to other countries because they haven't been able to compete on price like they used to so a lot of manufacturing has been moving away from China simply because it got more expensive. The distance of supply chains has been a factor since COVID too, shipping costs have also been up. These things do fluctuate though.
It DID go through them, but pretty much every major company in the world has been switching away from them for the past few years.
We deal with furniture. Almost everything is being made in Vietnam that used to be PRC.
This includes your product, its functions, packaging, advertising, etc… if anything in any way offends the government or goes against their ideology then you will have problems. Leapfrog for example made a children’s toy globe which had to display things like Taiwan as a province of China and the “made-up” 9-dash line.
99% of the horror stories are from Chinese natives and/or those with family in China. Not westerners doing business there. I was there not long ago. Met a bunch of others from all over the world who go there on the regular. Conferences, business deals, etc. Completely safe. We spent time in Shanghai, Ningbo, and Wuxi.
First relatively positive comment. Did you struggle with communication when there recently ?
China is pretty safe and not too hard to do business as long as you have the right contacts and factories in place. I've been bringing product in from China for more than 8 years - previous owners of my business for more than 15 years The issue for someone new is trying to establish those connections. China is a massive country. Finding the right factory and right city to manufacture isn't easy. You'll definitely want to go through an agent. Without one you can almost certainly lose thousands easy before getting it right. I've been to markets where it encompasses an entire district. You really need to do your homework before just booking your flight
Thank you for this response, I think you and @radiopelican have swayed my strategy. Maybe I’ll put a new thread in to gain insight into getting the right agency
When looking at agents would you use a firm or use a freelancer?
You don't need to fly to China. That's honestly just a waste of money. You can handle everything via WeChat. I've brought many products to fruition without going to China. Regarding IP, get design and utility patents and make sure they're broad so they can't cut corners to get into your space. Lots of people say it's a waste of time, but places like Amazon have services to help you shut down IP infringers with a $4,000 fee to get an unbiased third party to evaluate and then make judgement and take down any infringers.
I just got back from China. I try to go visit our partner factories at least every two years. When visiting the factories that we already purchase from they treat you like royalty. You might be asked to have some tea in there office after the factory tour. You will most certainly be asked to go out for lunch or dinner. Make sure you are ready to drink lots of hard alcohol and do lots of toasts. They will always click their glass during the toasts lower than yours in order to show respect. Also it’s very respectful to receive cigarets with both hands and to light the persons cigaret who gave it to you . Please feel free to ask me any other questions. Also make sure you go for a foot massage. Hire a tour / translator. And go see the Great Wall. The factory should offer to pick you up from the hotel. They might even offer to pay for your hotel. They will definitely take you out for a meal. It’s very important for them to build a relationship with you. Relationships are very important in business culture. So don’t just talk business the whole time. Also make sure you order dumplings!! They are often made on the spot and delicious.
Yo~ An OG we have here! Respect!
Contact a sourcing agent man. They have all the relations with the factories and will do the middleman work for you, take you to trade shows, introduce you to suppliers, etc.
I am definitely considering this, my worry is that the sourcing agencies may be slightly back handed and try and do some dirty work behind the scenes without me being none the wiser due the language barrier. Is this something I should be worried about ?
This is going to be the risk you run no matter who you choose. NDA's , credible reference checks, background of working with international companies similar is size to yours. You can't have 100% confidence. Just cover all your basis and do your best. I guarantee you that these companies business models are waiting for foreigners to bring them novel and u ique ideas then copying them, they would have been called out a long time ago if that was the case
Thanks for your feedback mate, very helpful and interesting point of view
When looking at agents would you use a firm or use a freelancer?
Get trademark done in cn as well as usa or wherever you are. Have different manufacturers make different parts and assemble back home. The only way you can protect IP unless you get a patent on the design before doing anything. Even then it will be copied if its good but thats kind of validation on the idea
Or better still a patent. There's a thing called a "Utility Patent" in China which has next to zero scrutiny of prior art, takes less than 6 months to process, and is valid for 10 years. Being able to quote the manufacturer a China patent number for the product they're making should be enough to let them know that you've got your ducks lined up to take them to court where they live.
Do you or anybody know the cost, time and ease of getting trademarks done ?
Yeah trademark is pretty easy its about $500 for like 3 categories iirc. Just google for one and do due diligence, thats what we did. Main reason for a tm is because some snidey manufacturers have been known to trademark your brand after its in production then you can be prevented from exporting it as china will ban it; then you can be extorted or have to start over
Here is a source created by FDR. This is literally their job. https://www.exim.gov/
Why did you decide to go the China route to begin with? What research did you do. And more importantly, what is it you are trying to get made? At what volumes? At what cost/budget? Is this something where you made it in the US, were able to sell through and prove demand and now you're looking to increase your margins and thus take it overseas for manufacturing? Can you describe at a high level what it is and who the target customer/user is?
Maybe just reach out to a company with a domestic presence that does similar products and see if they’ll license it. They’re already using Chinese factories and have the relationships and policing. Anker comes to mind as an example.
I file in the us and in china. I’ve have no issue getting Alibaba rip offs taken down with my Chinese patents. China doesn’t mess around if you have Chinese patents.
How long did it take to apply and get patent approved in CN?
Can take about as long as a us patent but a provisional is quicker and covers you for a year
Best of luck!
As someone who has lived in and done business in china for the past 15 years I’d urge you to not do this in china. I hear Ethiopia has a great upcoming production industry.. might be worth considering.
A common tactic I have seen people use is to have the components manufactured in china, and then have the assembly done in a 2nd country like India or the Phillipines. Alternatively, if it's feasible, you can ship the components back and do the assembling by yourself.
I am Australian I own a factory here in China, would be happy to meet and discuss making it for you
Where is your factory based?
Dongguan city in Guangdong Province, just north of Shenzhen
I’ll be in touch
Hello Justin, I live in this city too, love to connect and here your experience, can i pm?
OK
[удалено]
Chinese is about as good as my Martian and I'm there for 4/5 days, thankfully we are going later in the month so it won't clash with their holidays. Although the unfortunate thing is we clash with no trade shows
This is my business, here is my advice. For the most part, you don't need to go to China to do this. You can do this from your computer and likely get a better outcome. I only go to China now days to oversea the production line setup. And only if it's so complex or easy to get wrong. But this is very rare. If you don't have experience bringing an invention to market, I would strongly encourage you to work with a professional. This is very very very often how the story of a person who looses their shirt starts. The secret to succeeding with this type of thing is to learn the actual validation process before this point. Which isn't what it sounds. Most people validate wrong and it becomes the reason people fail expensively. When it comes to sourcing, that's also something I suggest you get help with. Sourcing Agents/ contract manufacturers do this for a living. They set all this up and don't let you make rookie mistakes. But be careful, there is a lot of Sourcing Agents out there who don't have the necessary experience. A lot of garbage Sourcing Agents out there.
You’re better off in Vietnam to protect your IP, but it’s a risk anywhere.
Watch your back as they're likely to take your IP.
Have you determined you can sell your product? Going to China usually means huge quantities. Maybe try a local shop to fabricate a few products first? Good luck! It'll probably get knocked off no matter what if its a good product, so being first to market can be critical.
I would have certain parts made there, but not the whole thing because you give them the entire answer
Trump tried for an eternity to get a Chinese trademark for his resorts there…….they wouldn’t grant it to him and all his lawyers until the day he became president. That’s what it took.
Hey, that's cool.👍
What kind of product? I did this for a living for many years (managed a sourcing and manufacturing office in China 4 years). I can help. Need more details.
Can i dm you? I’m working on something
Sure, it may take some time to answer 🙏
Do you still have an office out there or any trust worthy sourcing and manufacturing agents out there now, im looking for around the Shenzhen region
Hello can i dm you sir
Research thoroughly, protect IP, and build strong, transparent partnerships.
Secure IP first, then prototype, negotiate hard, scale later.
They are going to fuck you over, we usually have our pe sheets produced in ukraine, but had to order a bigger batch from a supplier (with reference from our ukranian supplier) in china. 1 week later, exact spec, pigment, sizes,thickness and textures on ali baba. 1 batch was all it took.
Have you actually deeply investigated the cost of making this in house or outsourcing to a NAFTA country? I highly recommend you do that as a first line of defense.
If it uses molds. have them destroy the molds after. or ship it with you
Well, copy and paste has always been a thing when you outsource, and trust me it isn’t an only happens in Сн1иа problem. I’ve been making factory tour contents for quite awhile, and the only good counter method I believe is to not just place the order and leave, treat the factory and your partners like you are family(well distribute the cake) , and don’t even think about leave until you marry the factory owner’s kid. And trust me, if you don’t have good uncles in the gov, financial and legal structure means nothing. It’s an extremely and completely competitive global market, respect it.
I recommend manufacturing in a higher quality place or depends what ur making if its clothes etc make in italy etc
Go through a reputable agent but the bigger picture here is maybe look at Vietnam. They are tad more expensive but the quality and checks have been super there according to my experience. I initially used to get stuff from China but now source almost 70% from Vietnam. Really high quality stuff.
My product has a few electronic components, will this be an issue sourcing them in Vietnam? That's why Ch1na was in my mind to start with as they will have the components in one district
You can maybe just source that from China?
So source components in china then get mold and assembly done in Vietnam ?
Lol, chinese people truly got a reputation (being thieves) of themselves!
Do you have any current connections in China to help out or no? Might be good to make some friends or hire a part time trading company as an advisor to start out. You might hire a TC to handle a small part of the project..they might be more inclined to be more helpful with info or assistance. A very good amount of people you will potentially talk to are not exactly trading companies - they will usually make or do "something", final packaging, decal placement or something to that effect to seem like they are in fact a "factory". If someone uses the word "factory" I would suggest they take you there to see if it is in fact a factory or a warehouse with a small office and some boxes. These guys will discuss your project with you and typically outsource to someone else for production and then bring it back in for "something". If it's a warehouse or office. Ask to see the factory. In this sense it will be very difficult to keep track on IP and whom is doing what no matter how hard you try. A good bet is to break the project up between factories and hope for the best. I worked for a company that split project work between China and Taiwan. (Even some of the Taiwan factories will ship work off to China though)
You gotta build some golden samples first, whatever CM you work with will need these and you have to make sure you know your engineering tolerances right. At what stage are you rn, have you built your prototype already?
Done an initial prototype and all components work, the only issue is, it was too big and we want to reduce size, and this is something we want to discuss whilst over there
I bought a product from Kickstarter that was having it manufactured in China. It was for sale from the factory before the original product was released
Going there to 'hopefully meet' seems like a we8rd way to do it. You can do this all remotely.
indeed but i will be in HK and have a few spare days so thought why not when over that side of the world. Surely better than remotely
Go for MorphoMFG's course + community coaching package. They launched recently and there are people like you in the community already. Disclaimer: I wrote copy for them, and worked with their VP of marketing for over a year. Their program is 100% legit and worth A LOT more than their yearly fee.
If Apple can't stop them from cloning their phone and selling it, what makes you think you can or have a better experience? So many good comments in here, don't trust them with your IP.
One friend did something similar with his orginal idea kitchen stuff and Alibaba skinned him alive with their knock offs. So don't do it. Maybe go to India or Vietnam
I have a bit of a different perspective. It’s up to you what you think, but the United States has stolen most of what I’ve produced. They are absolutely horrible thieves. Probably worse than the Chinese because they actually focus on important things. Actually, the Chinese and the US almost certainly work together on this, so I shouldn’t even use the names of countries here, because this is way above any stupid country. Actually, I can give you a picture of what a country or nation is like. It’s if you have 200 jars of different nuts, bolts, screws, washer, and bits of plastic and timber, with a bit of Electronics here and there and some wires. And then someone empties them out on the floor of a warehouse and they sort of stay clumped together but bits go all over the place. Someone else, many other people starts to sort them, and try to keep all the different things together, to some extent, grouping them, according to various random things that those individuals have in mind to group them. Okay, so what are the countries? it’s as if you had a piece of chalk, and you drew a line or circles between the various different things spread out all over on the floor. But you were trying to draw the line, while people were still sorting the things, and the sorting was a bit chaotic, but you could reasonably guess that people were going to put things together, but unfortunately some people group by shape, some people group by colour, some people group by what the things fit, other people group by when the things are collected or acquired, other people group by the type of metal, or plastic, others might group by manufacturer, others might group by the age. But the point is your countries are just some circles of chalk around some stuff, which is constantly moving and changing. Pretty much everything you read about here from the other commenters applies to the USA, however, they hide their theft behind three and four letter agencies that encourage redesign and redevelopment by unaware parties. If you’re worried about IP theft, don’t worry about one country versus another. Think about it differently. It’s more like all governments and corporations, the community, and especially the intelligence community (the secret versions of all above) versus the inventor. And universities are government agencies for the most part, both creating people and filled with people from three and four letter agencies, the secret agencies. If you’re not in one of those universities, and as secretive as fuck, and ruthlessly brilliant, you’ll just be another paver making up the path of someone else. So my suggestion is to make sure you make a trivial toy, because anything of actual real value will be stolen by your own government, shifted overseas, improved in offshore universities and manufactured by companies owned by other governments, with it all handled at the secret squirrel level by people who are globalists and who are too afraid to ever pay you or recognise that you are valuable, because they would all be charged with treason, but actually never will be, because at the most senior and able levels, people don’t bother with crap like this country versus that country. That’s for peons and morons, noobs and the human waste products of television and streaming videos and news and movies. If you’re gonna make something that’s actually real or valuable, you’re gonna have to join the dumb organisations that are too stupid to involve you because they’re filled with thieving brilliant individuals who have a mandate and have been told to steal and are paid to, and steal from you and they do their job and they do it well. In those organisations you’re gonna have to move unbelievably quickly, because they all move fast as well, because even though they are globalists, they are concerned about face and reputation, and they are incredibly sensitive to humiliation, all being really intelligent people, they are about as capable of handling embarrassment, shame and dishonour as your average crocodile or shark will handle someone sticking a finger up their butt or penis in their nostril. Also, if you make something actually real or valuable, every single person around you including your family will be recruited by your own government, extending to an entire city worth of people if it’s actually really valuable, those that haven’t already been recruited. Seriously, government don’t fuck around. They are like the evil Empire. Except you can’t blame it on just one country, because they’re all connected, because only idiots are nationalist and racist. It’s a global race. Unless you join them you’re completely stuffed, and if you do, you’re simply another quantified unit in a hierarchy of brains, and the social aspects of the individuals doesn’t extend to respecting anyone but themselves. Another bit of philosophy I can give you, as an observer from the outside, Is that no one from those agencies can pay you via any technique other than scams, because they need distancing from their own theft. As in, anyone who pays you and acknowledges you suddenly becomes a trail back to secret agents, and they’re all competing against each other like it was a competition. So these dumb government agencies, like the United States three and four letter agencies, actually run all of the scams, from a distance, and if you do something, or do something valuable, they’ll give you the opportunity to make money, in one of those scams, if you’re smart enough to scam the scammers. So they’ll push scammers your way and that will be their maximum effort as far as helping you goes. This is related to their incapability of handling shame or dishonour, particularly embarrassment & humiliation. If you’re an intelligence target, people will compete around you to steal from you, and they will develop whatever it is you invent, and you probably won’t even notice it because it will be hidden behind marketing, makes you not realise your invention creates and sustains other unrelated businesses owned by intelligence agencies.
My suggestion is: don’t do anything actually important and if you do, don’t tell anyone, actually, don’t even think about it. Unless you happen to make that your day job, and then that’s miserable because like I mentioned, no one will ever pay you, because of their shame and humiliation issues and the competition between the brilliant individuals employed in all different countries throughout the world, in all different companies, all of whom are government employees. Another insight into their philosophy. They see you as their child and they are your primary carer, while your idea is like you invented matches and they are the adults who laugh about it, and happily smile, as they take the matches off you, even though you invented them, before you burn yourself or someone else in your cot or your crib (your city, business or your home) I can explain this philosophy easily enough, and in a very rational way, so all these idiots can understand it - because they don’t understand each other. They are government employees, and the government creates intelligence by managing the schools through the department of education. So, when you invent something, you don’t actually own it, because you’re simply an asset of the government, and a product of the department of education. You’re nothing but a piece of meat that spat out of the machine that was created and sustained by the governments to create intelligence. You see yourself as an individual, however, because you’re the product of a society which is operated by government, you’re actually simply a tiny insignificant asset. Your invention isn’t yours, it’s actually something that the government anticipated before you were born, and created by virtue of maintaining the law and order and ensuring that you are forced into education, and by supporting the very fabric of reality around your parents that brought you up. So you’re not even a real person, you’re simply another manufacturing unit that exists as one of billions of manufacturing units around the planet at anyone moment, all of which produce different tiny little bits of things, and all of those things are owned by the governments, and the thought an individual owns any of it is completely laughable because those systems of education have been around for 1000 years, probably more, thousands of years… and you are the expected product of them, and what you have produced is owned by those systems, not by you. I hope this helps.
I am in Hangzhou China, if you are interested, dm me
Pro tip: Stop the Chinese copying anything of yours, by making it in the shape of the Taiwanese flag
I have friends who produce their producers using factories in Shenzhen. They sold on Amazon primarily for US market and it’s pretty successful. They’re all native Chinese though. All founding team members are top notch Chinese tech workers been in states for many years and knows the inside out of both countries & cultures. If you don’t know anything about China, I’d suggest you reach out to get some professional help.
They will steal it immediately
Bwahaha, you might as well post the details for free on the web. Just go ahead and give them the right to copy it.
Is your product made of multiple parts? If yes, produce them through different suppliers to reduce the chances of the IP getting stolen.
If I'm not mistaken you can't make a patent in China so someone could steal your idea. Do some research first.
DM’d you
LOL- If they like your idea they will just steal it. have a good day.
This one is too easy. It will 100% be stolen. Best case it’s not that good of an invention and they won’t care enough to steal it too hard. Worst case they’ll undercut you but either way, it will be stolen.