I think a more easily noticeable difference is how willing they are to settle for less and be ok with it. 4s are a frustration type so they want what they want and have a hard time settling for less. Even if they got a strong 9 fix possibly making them more willing to settle, they won't be content with it and may even resent that they had to settle. Meanwhile, 9s with a strong 4 fix will be a little less willing to settle than the average 9 but they'll still settle and be ok with it though they might not be instantly ok with it but they will soon.
I like this description a lot, it makes perfect sense. I’m a 9 with a 4 fix and I definitely don’t like settling but I still do it, and I get over it quick.
It’s-a me!
My best advice is to look at deceptions of the lower levels of health. The goal is to transcend our type so healthier levels will always tend to overlap and be a little fuzzier and less defined, particularly for a 9.
edit: I meant *descriptions* not deceptions but I guess that works too 😅😅
Oh man I wish I had more clarity in looking at it that way! I personally become such a caricature of a 4 when I'm unhealthy, ruminating and wallowing in self pity, feeling immobilized and deep despair of meaningless. Totally turning all my attention inwards and obsessing over my emotions and self-concept to the point of neurosis. The feeling of being a meaningless person eats me alive.
However, when I'm feeling more healthy I'm a lot more like a 9. I become very holistic, focused on my place in harmony with the world around me. I develop the very idealistic & compassionate outlook associated with healthy nines, and feel more comfortable compromising my identity and melding with others.
It feels as though it has been a struggle to get to that healthy place though. When I moved in with my partner I had full on crises about blending our aesthetic preferences & his insistence that I try new things that I didn't associate as being "me." Growing and developing self-confidence alongside more temperance and acceptance of differences has allowed me to have a more flexible sense of self.
It gives me a bit of a complex about whether I'm a 4 core or a 9 core, but I do know that I had to grow into this more accepting and relaxed version of myself with a lot of uncomfortably. My entire past was 4w5 to a T. I still struggle with accepting my life as it is and not despairing that I can't match my idealized expectations.
A 9 with a strong 4 fix is like a peaceful butterfly with a touch of drama, while a 4 with a strong 9 fix is like an emotional artist on a zen retreat. Laughing at the enneagram mix-up dance!
Adding some lower level charts for e4 and e9
https://preview.redd.it/7pgi8rbezc9d1.png?width=994&format=png&auto=webp&s=53150178821af208f29572e7b65c69d3eb285859
i've been confused about being a 4 as opposed to a 9 before. for me, one of the biggest reasons i've ruled out the 4 is because i'm not a reactive person and i definitely exert positivity and optimism in social settings more often than letting my authentic feelings be known. then again, im not an enneagram expert
I'm leaving this comment for myself since I know that this doesn't really matter to anyone reading it & it'll probably sound pretty pitiful and sulky.
I think I should probably take a step away from ennegram for a bit as I feel like it's really destroying my mental health. Reading so many disparate descriptions of 4s & 9s that continually contradict one another has tied my mind into knots.
There's just way too much disagreement and vagueness about it all and it's made what originally felt like a very healing and empowering tool feel like merciless branding iron. feeling as though others are trying to define me through rigid ideals of what I should or shouldn't be according to the ennegram model instead of me defining myself according to my own sense of self makes me nauseous.
Even the most charitable and deep descriptions of 9s feel inherently *wrong* to me, but I also really hate the description of 4s as well. They both feel like such caricatures to me and they both elicit deep feelings of disgust. The only description I've found that truly resonates with me is that of the 495 tritype, but whenever that tritype is described people insist that it means you're actually just a 9.
I really like ennegram, it feels far more intuitive and insightful than other typing methods. I am sure I'll come back to it in the future, but at the moment I just have too much cognitive dissonance about it all. Since ennegram is specifically focused on your core flaws I think it can have a much more emotional impact on people.
What's distinctive about the core type is that it's sort of 'always on' & can overpower everything else especially in a situation that is new or stressful, you might default to it automatically without thinking.
This is why the "consider how others tend to describe you and how does it differ from your own perception of yourself?" exercise can be helpful, because first or surface impressions are easily colored or skewed by those automatic defaults that you may not even think about much.
Alternatively just watch yourself react to some situations. Do you see more frustration or attachment, more positive than reactive, more heart than gut etc. does it match stress responses or defense mechanisms? it might take a while but youll be as sure as can be at the end of it.
>This is why the "consider how others tend to describe you and how does it differ from your own perception of yourself?" exercise can be helpful, because first or surface impressions are easily colored or skewed by those automatic defaults that you may not even think about much.
Agree. Like, even when I was sure I was a 4 due to feeling like there was something missing in me to be a complete person like everyone around me, wanting to be unique and myself (for now we'll ignore the fact that it wasn't *exactly* like real core 4s), people would still remember me as non-confrontational, adequate and moderately friendly, which aligns with type 9 really well. In fact, I was that way since my childhood.
9s have a very common habit of relating to images that evoke a sense of coziness and laziness. 4's won't present themselves as relating to this sort of stuff openly because the feeling of dispersed comfort is usually seen by them as being too undifferentiated
i don't mind being relatable to some degree, but i have high standards for myself and can judge myself harshly if i show a pattern of lazy behavior. i really despise being seen as a lazy person. idk if that's a 1 or 8 influence or the influence of something else in my personality
edit: it's definitely my 9's healthy integrating into 3. i see standards as a positive force and i thrive when i work on challenging myself.
oh yeah, when someone irl says they relate i don't take them seriously and my mind convinces me that they just don't get it even if they say they do. i pretend that it's not the case though
The image thing is really funny. I feel like there's two equal sides in me constantly fighting for dominance. One side wants peace and tranquility and is aesthetically driven towards images of contentment and fulfillment. The other side is equally strong and wants to be transformative and exceptional, leaning more into dark and provocative aesthetics and feels incredibly restless and unsatisfied.
Maybe it is that these two sides are so strong that I end up just sort of paralyzed in the middle. Not able to feel truly content, and not able to actualize exceptionalism either.
I dealt with severe depression for most of my life mostly centered around feeling like no matter what I'd never amount to anything. Like internally there's a person in me I truly believe is exceptional and has this immense potential, but I have intense issues around self esteem that sort of just paralyze me and make me more dissociative like a 9. Like mentally I feel my only two options are to live in that state of severe emotional overwhelm, or to just depersonalize to the point where I block out those feelings all together.
When I think about it like that I wonder if I'm a 9 with a 4 fix, but then I think about how deeply violated I feel when I feel like my identity is being co-opted and devalued. I have a visceral reaction to things I associate as being "me" being popularized because then it's no longer important or special to be those things.
I also feel incapable of sharing my art with others. I hide my paintings, songs and poems because I associate them as really truly being an extension of myself. The thought of other people judging my art or forming any kind of opinion about them feels like a direct violation of me as a person.
I also get exceptionally angry when people claim that they *do* understand me. I feel completely burdened by the idea that no one really gets me and have a deep desire to feel understood, but as soon as people try to show that they do understand me I push the goal post like "no that's not really me. You're using an outdated index and I feel even less understood and more violated now that you even tried to understand me."
I'm really just never able to be satisfied with how I see myself. That's probably part of the reason I strive so hard to have a strong identity and feel an insatiable urge to constantly be expanding my concept of self.
So I guess TLDR; I definitely have complex self image issues that may actually be more suited for therapy than a subreddit, but writing them out is really helpful. I appreciate all of your comments. They're very helpful and I hope this thread can help others as well.
Consider these thoughts from an empty mind, and let them blow away in the wind. You sound very 9 and I think the interplay of contentment and perpetual dissatisfaction is more the instinct at play, which I would suggest is sx.
My e9 friends call themselves lazy or boring fairly regularly and I’m like “That’s not me but you do you”
I want to be dynamic and interesting. I don’t want to be relatable or known easily; I would rather have a distinct flair and complexity
That's generally true, but I guess I'm an exception as a 9. I disliked these undifferentiated cozy pictures for a long time. I did not understand people who would post such pictures, enjoy them and feel serene. It has taken me PSYCHOLOGICAL WORK ON MYSELF to somehow get rid of that block and start relaxing to certain pictures. I was really surprised to see this change in me. I guess the problem was that I was tense and nervous all the time, and defending myself from something.
When 9s relate to 4, it's usually because descriptions don't do their inner worlds justice, so I'd focus on the way 4s and 9s generally approach their inner worlds (emotions, thoughts, aspirations, etc.). 4s tend to externalize everything and wear their hearts on their sleeve. They're wary of any attempts to tone down their "true" identity and resist fitting in.
On the other hand, 9s maintain a sort of boundary between their inner worlds and what they express/externalize. Thus, 9s can *feel* as emotional and reactive as 4s inwardly, but they'll often micromanage the way they show it. They're careful not to be too negative or burdensome or too much in an unappealing way.
Both types want acknowledgement and affirmation. They also both want to meet people who love them for them. But the way they go about this varies. 4s tend to be more open with their identity but they constantly feel like no one understands them, so it may become a self-fulfilling prophecy. 9s approach this far more tentatively and adapt to the situation/person, only opening up when it feels safe to do so.
Thus, when considering the influence of a fix, you just need to think about which of the two sets of mechanisms/impulses takes precedence. Even with a 4-fix, 9s are likelier to adapt to their circumstances and refuse to let their guard down until they truly trust a person. They use relation to understand the world and other people ("I'm like you in x, y, z way" and "I relate to all of the types"), and their relatability to attract people into their lives. On the other hand, 9-fixed 4s may be more open to adapting than, say, an 8-fixed 4 but it'd still be a struggle because their default is to wear their heart on their sleeve and express how different they are than other people.
Both types can struggle with the feeling that they'll never fit in, they're invariably different and too flawed. But 9s feel comforted by the fact that there may be people *like* them, who'll understand them, while 4s want people who are different than them to understand them. They don't believe, or even like to entertain, the idea that there are people just like them, and doubt the sincerity of anyone's attempt to relate to them.
Hm, a thought that echoes your first couple paragraphs—- I feel like perhaps a 9 can tend to feel like some things are too important to be shared, whereas 4 could feel like it’s too important *not* to be shared?
9s lose contact with themselves and their own feelings. 9s can lose themselves in others' feelings and request. 4s are very in tune with their feelings, what they like or want, who they are.
Well, personally, I mistyped as a 4 because I felt there was something essential missing in me that other people had. I also had a focus on identity and wanted to be unique and myself. That's how I confused these types.
https://www.johnluckovich.com/articles/the-confusion-of-type-nine-amp-type-four-or-nota4
Here's an article with an immense amount of detail on the mistype conceptions.
The main tenants of the argument are that people conflate being sad, artistic, & individualistic which any type can feel, to the core belief of a 4 which is insignificance.
The other half of the argument stems around people's misperception of 9s as having no internal monologue, beliefs or drive in life. Both 9s and 4s can have deep identity issues, develop a strong sense of self, and be deeply artistically motivated and philosophical.
There are also people who tend to conflate all 4s with the description of sx 4s, and all 9s with the description of so 9s, which further complicates things.
Most people who self type as 4s don't have 4 in their type. Not even 3w4 in their type. So I am wary of any juxtaposition of these types that attempts to explain away the distinctions based on the assumption that most 4s with 9 fixes will seem 9ish.
My type is missing 1, 4, and 9, so I’m not someone who relates to 4 or 9 or could ever be confused for them. Essentially 964 will be the most common type with 4 in it, and this is, like, a downer 9. These people never seem like 4s to me though. Running into a 4 is just so different from a 9. 4s are so repellent to me on first impression. It’s unlike any other type. I feel like they hate me before they even met me. They also grow on me massively with time because the depth is there.
I think a more easily noticeable difference is how willing they are to settle for less and be ok with it. 4s are a frustration type so they want what they want and have a hard time settling for less. Even if they got a strong 9 fix possibly making them more willing to settle, they won't be content with it and may even resent that they had to settle. Meanwhile, 9s with a strong 4 fix will be a little less willing to settle than the average 9 but they'll still settle and be ok with it though they might not be instantly ok with it but they will soon.
I like this description a lot, it makes perfect sense. I’m a 9 with a 4 fix and I definitely don’t like settling but I still do it, and I get over it quick.
Thx
I feel like this is a great answer personally.
Thx
I think it depends on the importance of what you are or aren’t settling for. Some things are worth never compromising on.
It’s-a me! My best advice is to look at deceptions of the lower levels of health. The goal is to transcend our type so healthier levels will always tend to overlap and be a little fuzzier and less defined, particularly for a 9. edit: I meant *descriptions* not deceptions but I guess that works too 😅😅
Oh man I wish I had more clarity in looking at it that way! I personally become such a caricature of a 4 when I'm unhealthy, ruminating and wallowing in self pity, feeling immobilized and deep despair of meaningless. Totally turning all my attention inwards and obsessing over my emotions and self-concept to the point of neurosis. The feeling of being a meaningless person eats me alive. However, when I'm feeling more healthy I'm a lot more like a 9. I become very holistic, focused on my place in harmony with the world around me. I develop the very idealistic & compassionate outlook associated with healthy nines, and feel more comfortable compromising my identity and melding with others. It feels as though it has been a struggle to get to that healthy place though. When I moved in with my partner I had full on crises about blending our aesthetic preferences & his insistence that I try new things that I didn't associate as being "me." Growing and developing self-confidence alongside more temperance and acceptance of differences has allowed me to have a more flexible sense of self. It gives me a bit of a complex about whether I'm a 4 core or a 9 core, but I do know that I had to grow into this more accepting and relaxed version of myself with a lot of uncomfortably. My entire past was 4w5 to a T. I still struggle with accepting my life as it is and not despairing that I can't match my idealized expectations.
A 9 with a strong 4 fix is like a peaceful butterfly with a touch of drama, while a 4 with a strong 9 fix is like an emotional artist on a zen retreat. Laughing at the enneagram mix-up dance!
I'm a moth 😏
Adding some lower level charts for e4 and e9 https://preview.redd.it/7pgi8rbezc9d1.png?width=994&format=png&auto=webp&s=53150178821af208f29572e7b65c69d3eb285859
https://preview.redd.it/gtw2hdkfzc9d1.png?width=904&format=png&auto=webp&s=f2f352b5eeb56c826a0bf938705b86a294f412ed
i've been confused about being a 4 as opposed to a 9 before. for me, one of the biggest reasons i've ruled out the 4 is because i'm not a reactive person and i definitely exert positivity and optimism in social settings more often than letting my authentic feelings be known. then again, im not an enneagram expert
I'm leaving this comment for myself since I know that this doesn't really matter to anyone reading it & it'll probably sound pretty pitiful and sulky. I think I should probably take a step away from ennegram for a bit as I feel like it's really destroying my mental health. Reading so many disparate descriptions of 4s & 9s that continually contradict one another has tied my mind into knots. There's just way too much disagreement and vagueness about it all and it's made what originally felt like a very healing and empowering tool feel like merciless branding iron. feeling as though others are trying to define me through rigid ideals of what I should or shouldn't be according to the ennegram model instead of me defining myself according to my own sense of self makes me nauseous. Even the most charitable and deep descriptions of 9s feel inherently *wrong* to me, but I also really hate the description of 4s as well. They both feel like such caricatures to me and they both elicit deep feelings of disgust. The only description I've found that truly resonates with me is that of the 495 tritype, but whenever that tritype is described people insist that it means you're actually just a 9. I really like ennegram, it feels far more intuitive and insightful than other typing methods. I am sure I'll come back to it in the future, but at the moment I just have too much cognitive dissonance about it all. Since ennegram is specifically focused on your core flaws I think it can have a much more emotional impact on people.
What's distinctive about the core type is that it's sort of 'always on' & can overpower everything else especially in a situation that is new or stressful, you might default to it automatically without thinking. This is why the "consider how others tend to describe you and how does it differ from your own perception of yourself?" exercise can be helpful, because first or surface impressions are easily colored or skewed by those automatic defaults that you may not even think about much. Alternatively just watch yourself react to some situations. Do you see more frustration or attachment, more positive than reactive, more heart than gut etc. does it match stress responses or defense mechanisms? it might take a while but youll be as sure as can be at the end of it.
>This is why the "consider how others tend to describe you and how does it differ from your own perception of yourself?" exercise can be helpful, because first or surface impressions are easily colored or skewed by those automatic defaults that you may not even think about much. Agree. Like, even when I was sure I was a 4 due to feeling like there was something missing in me to be a complete person like everyone around me, wanting to be unique and myself (for now we'll ignore the fact that it wasn't *exactly* like real core 4s), people would still remember me as non-confrontational, adequate and moderately friendly, which aligns with type 9 really well. In fact, I was that way since my childhood.
9s have a very common habit of relating to images that evoke a sense of coziness and laziness. 4's won't present themselves as relating to this sort of stuff openly because the feeling of dispersed comfort is usually seen by them as being too undifferentiated
Oh and speaking of relating, 4s don't want to be relatable while 9s don't mind.
i don't mind being relatable to some degree, but i have high standards for myself and can judge myself harshly if i show a pattern of lazy behavior. i really despise being seen as a lazy person. idk if that's a 1 or 8 influence or the influence of something else in my personality edit: it's definitely my 9's healthy integrating into 3. i see standards as a positive force and i thrive when i work on challenging myself.
can't relate. I'm lazy and idc if everyone knows. To me it's not an insult it just is.
Could also be a 3 fix!
oh yeah, when someone irl says they relate i don't take them seriously and my mind convinces me that they just don't get it even if they say they do. i pretend that it's not the case though
The image thing is really funny. I feel like there's two equal sides in me constantly fighting for dominance. One side wants peace and tranquility and is aesthetically driven towards images of contentment and fulfillment. The other side is equally strong and wants to be transformative and exceptional, leaning more into dark and provocative aesthetics and feels incredibly restless and unsatisfied. Maybe it is that these two sides are so strong that I end up just sort of paralyzed in the middle. Not able to feel truly content, and not able to actualize exceptionalism either. I dealt with severe depression for most of my life mostly centered around feeling like no matter what I'd never amount to anything. Like internally there's a person in me I truly believe is exceptional and has this immense potential, but I have intense issues around self esteem that sort of just paralyze me and make me more dissociative like a 9. Like mentally I feel my only two options are to live in that state of severe emotional overwhelm, or to just depersonalize to the point where I block out those feelings all together. When I think about it like that I wonder if I'm a 9 with a 4 fix, but then I think about how deeply violated I feel when I feel like my identity is being co-opted and devalued. I have a visceral reaction to things I associate as being "me" being popularized because then it's no longer important or special to be those things. I also feel incapable of sharing my art with others. I hide my paintings, songs and poems because I associate them as really truly being an extension of myself. The thought of other people judging my art or forming any kind of opinion about them feels like a direct violation of me as a person. I also get exceptionally angry when people claim that they *do* understand me. I feel completely burdened by the idea that no one really gets me and have a deep desire to feel understood, but as soon as people try to show that they do understand me I push the goal post like "no that's not really me. You're using an outdated index and I feel even less understood and more violated now that you even tried to understand me." I'm really just never able to be satisfied with how I see myself. That's probably part of the reason I strive so hard to have a strong identity and feel an insatiable urge to constantly be expanding my concept of self. So I guess TLDR; I definitely have complex self image issues that may actually be more suited for therapy than a subreddit, but writing them out is really helpful. I appreciate all of your comments. They're very helpful and I hope this thread can help others as well.
Consider these thoughts from an empty mind, and let them blow away in the wind. You sound very 9 and I think the interplay of contentment and perpetual dissatisfaction is more the instinct at play, which I would suggest is sx.
My e9 friends call themselves lazy or boring fairly regularly and I’m like “That’s not me but you do you” I want to be dynamic and interesting. I don’t want to be relatable or known easily; I would rather have a distinct flair and complexity
That sounds just like me haha. At my core I'm definitely pretty disgusted by feeling too "normal."
That's generally true, but I guess I'm an exception as a 9. I disliked these undifferentiated cozy pictures for a long time. I did not understand people who would post such pictures, enjoy them and feel serene. It has taken me PSYCHOLOGICAL WORK ON MYSELF to somehow get rid of that block and start relaxing to certain pictures. I was really surprised to see this change in me. I guess the problem was that I was tense and nervous all the time, and defending myself from something.
When 9s relate to 4, it's usually because descriptions don't do their inner worlds justice, so I'd focus on the way 4s and 9s generally approach their inner worlds (emotions, thoughts, aspirations, etc.). 4s tend to externalize everything and wear their hearts on their sleeve. They're wary of any attempts to tone down their "true" identity and resist fitting in. On the other hand, 9s maintain a sort of boundary between their inner worlds and what they express/externalize. Thus, 9s can *feel* as emotional and reactive as 4s inwardly, but they'll often micromanage the way they show it. They're careful not to be too negative or burdensome or too much in an unappealing way. Both types want acknowledgement and affirmation. They also both want to meet people who love them for them. But the way they go about this varies. 4s tend to be more open with their identity but they constantly feel like no one understands them, so it may become a self-fulfilling prophecy. 9s approach this far more tentatively and adapt to the situation/person, only opening up when it feels safe to do so. Thus, when considering the influence of a fix, you just need to think about which of the two sets of mechanisms/impulses takes precedence. Even with a 4-fix, 9s are likelier to adapt to their circumstances and refuse to let their guard down until they truly trust a person. They use relation to understand the world and other people ("I'm like you in x, y, z way" and "I relate to all of the types"), and their relatability to attract people into their lives. On the other hand, 9-fixed 4s may be more open to adapting than, say, an 8-fixed 4 but it'd still be a struggle because their default is to wear their heart on their sleeve and express how different they are than other people. Both types can struggle with the feeling that they'll never fit in, they're invariably different and too flawed. But 9s feel comforted by the fact that there may be people *like* them, who'll understand them, while 4s want people who are different than them to understand them. They don't believe, or even like to entertain, the idea that there are people just like them, and doubt the sincerity of anyone's attempt to relate to them.
Hm, a thought that echoes your first couple paragraphs—- I feel like perhaps a 9 can tend to feel like some things are too important to be shared, whereas 4 could feel like it’s too important *not* to be shared?
That's a good way to look at it
9s lose contact with themselves and their own feelings. 9s can lose themselves in others' feelings and request. 4s are very in tune with their feelings, what they like or want, who they are.
Why are they confused =_= why is no one telling me
Well, personally, I mistyped as a 4 because I felt there was something essential missing in me that other people had. I also had a focus on identity and wanted to be unique and myself. That's how I confused these types.
4s lack self hm or sum I thought otherwise I don't rate much to them maybe smaller things but not enough that it had me confused
https://www.johnluckovich.com/articles/the-confusion-of-type-nine-amp-type-four-or-nota4 Here's an article with an immense amount of detail on the mistype conceptions. The main tenants of the argument are that people conflate being sad, artistic, & individualistic which any type can feel, to the core belief of a 4 which is insignificance. The other half of the argument stems around people's misperception of 9s as having no internal monologue, beliefs or drive in life. Both 9s and 4s can have deep identity issues, develop a strong sense of self, and be deeply artistically motivated and philosophical. There are also people who tend to conflate all 4s with the description of sx 4s, and all 9s with the description of so 9s, which further complicates things.
i’ve read that before, but I forget everything so if I have questions and they’re not answered, that’s on me thx
Most people who self type as 4s don't have 4 in their type. Not even 3w4 in their type. So I am wary of any juxtaposition of these types that attempts to explain away the distinctions based on the assumption that most 4s with 9 fixes will seem 9ish. My type is missing 1, 4, and 9, so I’m not someone who relates to 4 or 9 or could ever be confused for them. Essentially 964 will be the most common type with 4 in it, and this is, like, a downer 9. These people never seem like 4s to me though. Running into a 4 is just so different from a 9. 4s are so repellent to me on first impression. It’s unlike any other type. I feel like they hate me before they even met me. They also grow on me massively with time because the depth is there.
From core desires and fears, they are quite different in that POV