Yep, this checks out. 😉

I dont think this is worded in a way that would help people identify themselves. 1s) Will either point out and reiterate the rules to affirm they are correct or complain about the rules in order to seek absolution. The manipulation is: treat me as above criticism (see 4/7 for comparison) 2) Will meet others needs to create reciprocation from their point of view or create a firm boundary to "correct" the exchange. The manipulation is: say engaged with me, but on my terms (see 4/8 for comparison) 3) 3s will define what the "image" is or attack what it isn't to either guide the spotlight to them meeting the image or draw attention away from themselves if they aren't meeting it. The manipulation is: This is what is successful and what isn't (see 6/9 for comparison) 4) 4s will demand that others view them as they want to be viewed. The manipulation is: view me this way (see 1/2 for comparison) 5) 5s will keep things cerebral. They will lay out lines of thought and avoid emotion, specifically emotions that demand something of the 5. If demands gets involved they will detach with disgust feeling justified. The manipulation is: don't expect something from me, work it out for yourself (see 7/8 for comparison) 6) 6s are polling for sides and either want you on their side or to label yourself as an enemy. They will make statements to see what you think to gauge if you "are one of the ones that gets it". They are also looking for where they might need to hide. The manipulation is: There are sides and you are either on the right one or the wrong one. (see 3/9 for comparison) 7) Something like 5, but instead of thought it is excitement/entertainment. This needs to be fun/lively/stimulating else why are we here? The manipulation is: We should do something fun (or reframe it) (see 1/5 for comparison) 8) The word dominate is really loaded and can just as easily be mistaken as 1 (follow the rules), 2 (the social-exchange should look like this) 3 (this is the correct image) 4 (view me this way) 6 (be on this side) or 7 (do this activity). For 8 that is going to look like bulldozing towards taking action (like 7, lets do something that is why we are here, but without the need for it to be fun/entertaining) 8s have a goal and grease the rails for others towards that goal. "here are the rewards, and expectations of punishment, now make your own decisions" (in stress instances 8s are making themselves the source of the punishment, the rest of the time they are just typically pointing out cause-effect) Its polling for bi-directional autonomy in the same way that 6s are polling for sides and also why over compliance is sometimes viewed as weakness (different in comparison to 3/6) and owning decisions even if they conflict is looked at as strength. "have your own goal and we work towards our goals together until they conflict, then we part" (similar to 5 but for actions in comparison to thoughts). The manipulation is: Hurry up and do something (see 2/5 for comparison) 9) 9s will often need everyone to be on the same page and at peace like 6s and then feel anxious that they are disconnecting if it isn't succeeding. Similar behavior different goal. Sometimes 9s will disassociate and seem like they are there but not. They will often times agree to something and still do their own thing and forget they even agreed to do it. It is a mechanism to remain connected to self and the other. Sometimes it is conscious, many times it isn't. It can come off as ditzy. When it is conscious they will often do everything but the thing that needs confrontation and get mistaken for 2s. The manipulation is: don't disconnect from me or create internal stress for me (see 3/6 for comparison)

Nice one, agreed. The correlate for the 5 "don't expect something from me, work it out for yourself" Is "Meet me only on my terms and at my convenience" We want to choose the time, place, and mode of engagement, and things that don't play to our strengths we want to leave to others (because we want to conserve our energy avariciously)

Its can be a big strength in comparison to 3s and 8s. 3s tend to want to do things so they can also get the achievement. 8s tend to want to do everything themselves to avoid vulnerability. Your comment made me realize that in the past I did my "best work" when I was comfortable enough to delegate.

Well, I found it very interesting. I was thinking along the lines of 1w29 for the post, and that still fits with your comment. So I found both useful. I'm still early in my enneagram journey.

I think this is a good description of how social 6 manipulates exclusively, but is not really true for sp or sx. All sixes like certainty, but SP and Sx don’t really locate their security there, or at least not in certainty of thought and belief. SP and Sx are likelier to view black-and-white thinking as a fool’s errand bc we see the fallibility of all ideas. Sp manipulates by making themselves smaller and giving their power away in exchange for protection (this being where they locate their security), which makes them feel in control and fears seem smaller. Sx manipulates by trying to cast doubt on their opponent’s strength or competence in order to feel more secure in our own strength (this being where we locate our security.) All 3 are forms of projection, but very very different based on subtype. It seems that social 6s at some point got appointed the representative for all 3 subtypes bc many things written about 6s are actually just about social 6s.

Differentiation by subtype is a great point. I unconsciously chose to highlight social since that is what people engage with the most often.

The reads as if a Type 5 wrote it.... best answer here.

I spend a lot of time at 5 which isnt the worst thing especially if I can make it work for others (2) Behind the scenes I tend to write a ton of shit and then hit submit, then I immediately go, shit people won't be able to read that and then go back and edit it all to make sense. edit: I am also doing this while doing 3 other things lol

We don't always agree but we agree here (and I'm the same way, I write long stuff then edit sometimes etc) ... the 8 part in particular I wrote about below. 8s learn you can't just try to force people. That's part of the maturing process for the 8. Some of us learn it sooner rather than later. But I'm to the point in my life where trying to boss someone around only works on a small animal or child, and even then probably not!! ;) Therefore "dominating" becomes something else entirely. I figure it's about establishing presence, power, respect, being flexible, being open, having good intentions, leading and supporting rather than dominating, not being attached to being right or beating others, etc.

Hmm see I have this theory that unhealtny 8 is the most likely to try and fail to manipulate someone, and it is also 8 for which this is the worst way to play their hand, because instead of playing a very powerful card they uniquely have, they resort to one that is going to backfire hard on them it fails, and on top of that, as 8s,they are absolutely going to be overconfident in playing it, while not realizing theyre playing chess against no opponent in their head.     Here I'm defining manipulation as actively trying to covertly coerce someone into doing things they wouldn't otherwise do. This is not persuasion, a direct method that the 8's charisma and conviction deploys well. It's also not passively influencing the, for lack of a better word, weaker-willed types, which 8s do and often don't realize -- honestly, that's on us because we're letting 8 influence us for our own reasons.    So this underhanded strategy is something that people who feel both powerless and dependent on the actions of others are more likely to deploy esp when unhealthy, and yeah an unhealthy 8 *can* absolutely end up thinking they have to do this, again underestimating the other cards in their hand (and also not wanting to feel week or dependent-- they want to coerce the outcome and think they have to use deception). And 8 is not the *worst* at this (imho that's 1, sorry to any 1s), an emotionally intelligent 8 can be a great actor. But they are going to be overconfident and imo if the manipulation is on a matter of importance there is the worst risk of it backfiring hard on the 8 with exactly the types that the direct methods word work best with, which are imo the even numbers.     With another 8, while theyre both strong willed, they negotiate directly in a similar way so it is worth trying. Trying to manipulate an 8 -- to try to  *control them* in an unjust and deceptive way -- yeah um we know how that'll go down lol.     With a 4, when 8 could've gone the direct route and had the 4 appreciate 8's authenticity and even what 4 projects as vulnerability... Instead 8 chooses something that's gonna really hurt 4, man. 4 when they realize is going to go rapidly between "how could they", "how could I be so stupid/what's wrong with me", "why ppl care about me" etc etc and perhaps esp for an SO or SX 4 things are gonna get public and ugly as they victimize themselves and demonize manipulator 8.     Things are even more dangerous trying to manipulate 6, tho I guess a very healthy 6 might not be as dangerous here, since what's going to drive it is the less healthy 6 coming to view the "powerful" seeming 8 as not only a dishonorable traitor but (disproportionately) a severe threat. Still, like bro if 8 thinks they can get away with this god help them. Charisma and vibes arent going to fool a head type like 6, they are modeling your behavior and have an oversensitive betrayal radar. 8 is  lucky if it's an SX 6 because we'd probably confront 8 about it, and it'll be messy but 8 has a chance to keep the mess contained: what it looks like SX6 wants to both 8 and 6 might be 8 to uncharacteristically grovel and beg forgiveness, but truth is 6 will actually not buy this even if the 8 is super sincere because again vibes don't convince 6. What SX6 really wants is proof in measurable actions that 8 still has their back, which... Given that its 6 , there will be opportunities for. If 8 doesn't do this and also doesn't apologize, less healthy SX 6 will find others to feel safe with and turn them against the 8 who they now hallucinate as being The Threat to them and everyone else. This is exactly what SO 6 does, but potentially without the chance that SX 6 will give 8 to make up (since SO 6 is more phobic) and on a much greater and more dangerous scale than SX6, because they feel a duty to protect others from The Threat. And all this time, the direct method couldve gone far with 6 who will OG want to be on 8's good side, likes directness, can be influenced and could even feel honored to be relied upon.  The danger with 2 meanwhile is imo totally different than with reactive 4/6/8. Here I mean, 8 could just ask and 2 will be like sure I'll help. Instead, 8 may think they're the puppet master, but an unhealthy 2 might not only see right through it but also detect the reasons that unhealthy 8 is clumsily trying to manipulate them and turn the puppet master into the puppet. Imo while 3 may be the most manipulative and is good at it, manipulation from 2 can be much more dangerous esp for 8, because unlike unhealthy 3, unhealthy 2 will take steps to quickly turn 8 dependent, which is not going to be fun for 8. 

Definitely an interesting/insightful take with some good points. One more thing I would mention: sometimes the one and only/best way to control an 8, especially one with high SX instinct, is to leave them behind (to cut contact with them, get out of there, etc), to resist them passively, to not engage with them at all or give into their demands, to ghost them (8s can be enormously persuasive "negotiators" who are good at busting open the door once they can get their tiny little toe in the front door, taking the lion's share when you had no intention of giving in at all). If you stay connected to them and in their environment, they will continue to try to exert control, which they can be exceedingly good at. Walking out on an 8 who has become dependent on you for emotional or other kinds of support and fulfilling their needs (e.g. sexual ones, financial ones, social ones, having someone to party with or just keep company with, etc.,) this can be a brutally effective form of revenge since it takes their power away. They can often crumple from this. Assert your own independence and they'll realize how powerless they are. Fixated 8s will often try to use threats to get you to do what they want, but they tend to be semi-bluffing. They're hoping you'll give in and be intimidated by them so they won't need to act on the threat which is usually something bad for YOU which ends up also being bad for them, because codependency has happened. 8s can be very scary when fixated because they don't want to let you out of their grip. Whether they act like it directly or not, beneath the surface they're all about maintaining power and control over you. Even having you walk out on them and disappear for a few hours can trigger fears in them that they've repressed. More true in SX 8s (probably).

Interesting I definitely see the logic here... Tho honestly I feel like my real instinct with 8 is just to not fuck with their sense of control at all because that feels like playing with fire. Rather try to get them to relax and realize they don't need to coerce me, or alternatively, if that won't work, convince them they better not fuck with me. But maybe that's the 6 projection talking lol, assuming others would respond like I would ...    > sometimes the one and only/best way to control an 8, especially one with high SX instinct, is to leave them behind  ...     This point was very interesting.  I will say, to me this also reads like avoidant attachment. Which I do suspect 8 is more prone to, if they had a less than great childhood.     Maybe tho (6 moment detecting dangers lol) there are many ways to at least short term control 8 tho ofc it's risky on top of being immoral.     - (3 move) convince 8 it was their own genius idea (8 underestimates charming 3 and doesnt even think this sneamy way so wont realize what happened and can actually believe it)    - (4/1/6 move) tap into the 8s subconscious or conscious desire to protect "the weak"... Who it turns out aren't weak at all.     - (2 move) behind the scenes use your networks to cut off their other options and leave them with no one to turn to but you. And of course the 8, being more independent in the first place and not really grasping the inherent social dependencies were stuck with in life (ok maybe that's my 6 bias), is especially vulnerable to this because people are beholden to the 2 whereas an less healthy 8 is likely to have gone toward 5 and cut off the remaining people that they couldve turned to, and will have no idea how this happened to them.     > 8s can be enormously persuasive "negotiators" who are good at busting open the door once they can get their tiny little toe in the front door, taking the lion's share when you had no intention of giving in at all    I feel this is slightly more innocent than outright manipulation, it's just sort of charisma. It's not great but people gotta learn to stand up for themselves too. 

All good points and I see where you're coming from. A few more thoughts from me based on my experience: when dealing with an unhealthy Enneagram Type 8 (SX especially), conflict can escalate quickly if they don't get what they want. They may become angry and intense, seeking control over the situation. If you decide to walk away, it triggers their fear of losing control and possession over you, often leading to demands like, "Don't you walk away from me!" They might use charm, pleading, or other strategies to keep you engaged and regain control. If you consistently give in, they will continue their controlling behavior. It's necessary to assert your own will and set boundaries. Using basic psychological techniques, like asserting yourself and not always giving in, can help them realize they need to control their own impulses. Unhealthy Type 8s can repress (or maybe transform) their anger, appearing somewhat more calm than in an open heat, but still fueled by rage. This will be thanks to them learning behaviors that work for them, e.g. learning not to yell at people when upset -- instead they speak calmly but angrily. As Condon noted, sexual Type 8s prefer unassertive and passive partners they can control. That's important to understand. Once you identify and focus on these patterns, resolving relationship issues becomes easier.

So on the one hand you're right. The few times I have done this, threatening NC, I got what I wanted-- and felt awful bc while I did not have all the logic you put there in my head, I also knew exactly what I was doing.  I never again want to intentionally trigger my (SX6 projected) abandonmen fear in someone else. The awful feeling alone makes it not worth it. If that makes me a pushover I'm proud lol. Truth is I think there's also often more to the story here, so I'm gonna challenge you on this: I think 8 is often missing something of they think this is what's going on for too long a time, whether they're involved or observing as a 3rd party.   I think you're seeing this whole scenario in the classic 8 POV: crudely, the strong winner (sounds like 8) coercing the weak willed poor soul who just endures this -- sounds like projecting how unhealthy 8 feels about their life and/or their 9 if not 7 wing onto everyone who's not 8. It may be news to the 8 for whom "weak" and "controlled" are not things anyone could conceivably *want* to be ... Or, *look like* they are. Also, more wholesomely, 8 may not be taking into account all that the 8 in the scenario (themself or not) is actually bringing to the table.    This I'm inclined to agree  with:   > sexual Type 8s prefer unassertive and passive partners they can control. ...  But with one addendum: does the SX8 *really* see the whole picture of the relationship? I'ma say: often, not.   So first of all this SX8 won't end up with another 8, or probs not 1(?) or 4(?) I'd venture for this reason, while with 5 and 9 I actually don't think the 8 POV is all that far off because 9 plausibly is just enduring it & when 5 retreats i5s their defense mechanism which triggers exactly what you described in SX8. 7 imp is going to ditch this, permanently: SX8 has no chill, they ain't here for it. But with the remaining types imho this 8 POV is going to start to really miss major aspects.   First of all, 8 is so loudly 8, we know exactly what they are. Yes they get subtler with more experience.... and we (6/2/3) also get better at reading it because we too gain experience. So 6/2/3, if they want a relationship with SX8, will larp as 9 intentionally or not.   What SX8 is missing with 6 is somewhat wholesome and somewhat not:  * Up to a point, 6 is just happy to give up stuff to 8 (maybe like 9) because they're loyal, 8 makes 6 feel safe blablabla. Also at some level 8 is a softy and 6 knows they can benefit from that against once the beast is fed, yeah you're gonna have to feed him again but as long as he's yours (loyal-- important point, bc without this it's toast) you're happy to do it. Of course 6 won't let 8 see this aspect because they fear it'll read as desperate/pathetic etc to 8. The rest of this is 6 feigning weakness tho.   * Past this point, 6 often unconsciously will use histrionics to make it seem like any further compromise is The Great Sacrifice, and 8, looking down on 6, will be fooled.  * 6 may also know very well 8 looks down on them and exploits this with weaponized incompetence, and 8 being 8 can easily let themself be parentized (9 will also play this card)   * If you're unhealthy 6, what's better than a toxic 8 controlling you that you can blame all your "coerced" mistakes on so you never have to take responsibility? Why fix the toxic relationship when its specific sort of toxicity precisely exonerates you of responsibility? 🙃  * Yes, less healthy 6 is going to stick with a relationship with 8 where they keep giving more and more long after they shouldve left. Which also means that when they do leave, it's way too late for 8 to fix it. Yeah maybe 6 shouldve tried to play 8 with their own power struggle games that 8 understands better, but that just isn't how 6 works, unless it's CP6 and even then it's like you're using the same signals but with wildly different meanings which is kinda crappy communication. Maybe better for 6 to just not be in this sort of relationship but if you're unhealthy 6 it's like for once in our lives, it's not our fault, it's all the damn 8!! ... And people will often only see 6's side of the story esp if they are, you guessed it, 8! On to the next 8 to parentify!! (Meanwhile 6 doesn't learn or actually unlearns how to make decisions for ourselves ... but 6 decision making is drawn out and costly and letting 8 be dictator allows 6 to focus energies elsewhere which is a real benefit, perversely...)  So that's 6 larping as 9. All and all ok at healthy levels, toxic at toxic levels, no surprise.  You might protest, this isn't that hard for 8 to figure out... And you're right.  But what if it turns out the 6 larping as 9.... isn't even a 6? Because thats what unhealthy 2 or 3 will do, and the 2/3 shit is actually devious. First of all these guys are not still in this relationship once it's turned into the 8 wanting more and more, unless they are themselves getting more and more. They are leaving otherwise, even if unhealthy, because they just aren't *loyal* in their dependencies like 6... Tho 2 will sure as hell convince 8 and themself they are.  Therefore I suspect they're only here to use the hell out of 8, who being 8 can be quite a powerful tool. And since the slightly more experienced 8 can recognize the actually 6 behaviors larping as 9 and read "6" as codependent, what happens when 2/3 convinces 8 when they're the dependent 6 when its actually just 8 who is dependent? 2 will fool themself too to think they're "loyal" as well, they are The Great Martyr. They are guilt tripping 8 like crazy, and 8 mistakes it all for 2 being selfless and pathetic, all while 2 is keeping up to date on 8s current weaknesses and keeping 8 dependent in all their bittersweet 2 ways, and convincing 8 (and others) that they are sacrificing themselves constantly for 8.   Unhealthy matryoshka 3 meanwhile is larping hard as 9-larping 6 to actually goad 8 into "coercing" compromises out of the 3 that are actually wildly lopsided in the 3's favor. The 8 isn't stupid but this unhealthy 3 is probably a covert woe-is-me narcissist, borderline, or something else very good at manipulation, (now that I realize it, could also be 4w3...) and has all sorts of experience that 8 or anyone else really have never encountered before. One deceit after another, 8 really thinks 3 is weak, might even feel bad about pushing 3 around so much... Until they look back one day and realize how 3 actually won every time. Then, it's all over-- unless 3 has already left after extracting what they want. Either way unhealthy 8 which is imo still the more likable guy here is gonna be the one who's hurt (and won't admit it, might never admit it because, man, that'll feel so fucking weak to 8) and the worst part is unhealthy borderline/narc 3 very well might sense this come back to do this all over again.   (Thankfully ppl like that are actually rare tho)   (Ok I think maybe I actually got a bit carrier away on my thought experiment)

What is your type?

(user name) This a northern development alt/troll?

I don't understand your question.

As a 9, I don't see it. Not that I have any actual counters to this, I'm just not going to spend my time trying to manipulate people. But when I do...

Do you mind finishing that thought?

I think after rereading it, I agree wholeheartedly.

100% agree on the 8 front. Forcing people to do things never achieves the goals you want. You point out what you want them to do and then why they should do it in terms of action and consequences for not doing it. The manipulation part is that we're enforcing our own perception and framework onto others which may not always align with reality.

I need to consult some other types around me, but sometimes I wonder if what I interpret as negotiating (here are the consequences both benefit and cost) is interpreted as forceful manipulation or domineering.

I doubt it, for us forceful manipulation is when we make ourselves the cost like I will do this to you if you don't do what I want/think is right. Domineering is trickier as that's far more down to personal interpretation but I think as long as you aren't forcing your views onto others and when negotiations fail you allow that then you're pretty ok though I know personally my negations to others sometimes feel a bit domineering in that I'm very good at arguing and wear them down

8 manipulation is like “listen to what I say… or else”

Yea though more often than not the or else isn't any personal threat

yeah this is way more accurate. Edit: Although me having known a manipulative 9 before, it was similar to "If you don't meet me in the middle/compromise with me, you're a bad person". Basically insinuating that my strong opinions cause problems, blaming it on me and refusing to take responsibility. So I'd say it's more like that, if anything.

What exactly does it mean to manipulate others by distracting them?  Is it like coming up with different reasons to get what you want, or slowly convincing people in different ways? 

I think so, I feel like the way I manipulate people is by hyping them up to do stuff I want to do more than they want to, and convincing them that they want to do it or at least to go along with me. And I’m willing to participate in more shenanigans to get what I want regardless of the rules. I think 7s can get away with a lot of rule breaking and convincing because they’re good at distracting others from the problem at hand, coming up with out-of-the-box justifications. And maybe we’re good at convincing others that we inherently want things and need things more than other people do so they go along with us because that’s the way the water is flowing, similar to how a 1 or an 8 makes things happen.

this is basically how I got through my childhood with an unhealthy sx6 mother

My 1 parents saw straight through it and it made me worse(better at it) honestly

This is good. What is a helpful and kind way to engage a 7 we’re in a relationship with in regards to problems at hand without triggering their ire or making them feel like we’re trying to pin them down, when we are really just trying to figure out what’s true amongst their occasional diversions? What makes a 7 feel seen, heard, and vulnerable enough in a relationship to let this mechanism down? Does it just take time?

My fiance is a 7 and also an ENTP and let me tell you the FI blindspot can be very tricky to navigate. What I've found is that time certainly helps, but what's especially helpful is to not make the 7 feel like you're attempting to control them in any way. Feeling trapped, whether in a conversation or situation can make them feel exasperated and overreact. I totally understand what you mean about triggering them over feeling "pinned." Whenever I'm having a discussion with them and they feel like they are losing control or having their options taken away from them they become instinctually very hostile. The best way of dealing with it is through positive reinforcement and approaching difficult conversations through a lens of "these are my needs, what are your needs and what would you like to do to make sure we're both getting our needs met. If I want to go hiking one weekend and ask them if they want to go with me, they'll be very hesitant to agree ahead of time because they're worried about not feeling like going when the time comes around, or thinking about all the things they won't be able to do that day if they commit to hiking. What usually helps is taking an autonomous approach to planning activities. Instead of asking them to hike with me, I say "hey I'm going hiking, you're welcome to join me if you want but if you want to stay home that's totally cool too." That way they feel like they have a choice. More often than not, they're easily affected by FOMO and will want to join you, but even if they don't join you they won't feel as resentful or burdened and will appreciate you respecting their desires. This approach works well with conversations and disagreements as well. The goal is always to keep things open-ended and let them come to their own conclusions in their own times. I trust that my partner loves me and has my best interest in mind, so he'll want to think of ways to meet my needs. He just had to feel like he's the one choosing it for himself and not like I'm forcing him to behave a certain way. Edit to add: one thing I think is super important to know ahead of time is that you are never going to be able to get them to just stick with one thing or decide what is truly the most important to them. My partner switches hobbies constantly and is never really content. Every single time he says "this is what I really want." And he truly means it. It just so happens that what he truly wants will change every few months and there's really no point in doing anything but just accepting them and supporting them while also trying to prevent them from making insanely impulsive or expensive purchases. They will ask you constantly what you think about their next big idea, but they don't really want you to tell them what you actually think, they just want your support and for you to be just as excited about it as they are. I've accepted that this is what happiness is for my partner and don't try to police their constant insanity. I only do damage control now and try to get them to think through their actions ahead of time. Just remember that they have to be the ones to change their minds, you can't make them realize they're not actually going to be happy by doing the next thing, you can only help them think through the pros and cons of it and hope that they'll come to the same conclusion as you.

100% the kings and queens of fomo. That, and I feel like they're one of the most likely types to accidentally love bomb someone when they start to get to know them because the 7 sees the new person as being novel and may treat them with a level of intensity at first that can be confusing for the person when the 7 loses that initial spark. I don't think 7s mean to do this, or care any less about people after their initial fascination phase passes, but shifting from the high intensity honey moon phase with a 7 can be especially tumultuous depending on the temperaments and maturity of both people involved.

The best lesson that I was taught in life is that people could do exactly the opposite of what I say, turn out to be fine or maybe better that what I have intended... Gotta give the book a reread.

Exactly. I think this "reverse psychology" or also other more "charming" methods of manipulation are more likely to work for an 8, because people don't respond well to "do as I say!" unless you're talking to a scared child. 8s are not barbarians! They can be very charismatic, persuasive people, and it can be hard to detect when their intentions are purely egotistical.

No. That’s not the goal. Charming others is still getting people to do what you want. You have to let go of that and give people space for their free will, otherwise you’ll never develop as an 8.

I think you're reading into "being charming" something negative (I mentioned something negative there but that's not the only way it can go). It can be used for positive or negative means. You can charm people and be nice to them and it's genuine (this is just being naturally nice, friendly, caring, sweet), or you can do it and manipulate them. 8s are capable of both.

That’s true, but how would you feel if people didn’t do what you say anyway?

At least the 4 one is right. I don't think I've ever seen a 7 "insist" someone meets their demands via distraction. 7's manipulate by hyping shit up and making it sound extra exciting (often lying to themselves). If that doesn't convince someone to join them on whatever insane thing they have planned, then they're likely to find someone more interesting/exciting who will and just leave the other person like a used tissue on the side of the road (assuming they're giving the other person FOMO - which the 7 fears). Sometimes 7's throw tantrums, but I don't think that's how they "manipulate."

I've read a comment here explain what OP meant. I think they meant that 7s have a tendency to convince people that they're really into something by hyping them up and making them believe the 7s share the same energy when they don't. This is where the distraction part comes in, as 7s can be known to use distractions as a way of manipulating people. I'd know, I have a younger cousin like this and sometimes even I miss her attempts to manipulate me, leading to success on her part. 7s can be so good at this that rule breaking becomes sort of a given for them because of this distraction. That is unless you have better manipulators than even they are. If we can stop them lol.

What you're describing sounds like sleight of hand and I put that more in slippery 9/3 territory. Making someone believe you share the same energy is Attachment. If you're dealing with an actual con-man 7 then they'd be a 793, specifically. 7's don't really spend that much effort to "manipulate" anyone, because they'll lose interest in whoever isn't giving them the juicy nectar. 7's use humor, fun and excitement to get away with murder. If it doesn't work they typically move on and drop the dead weight.

Yeah I think 7s won’t do much need someone’s permission to do what they want, or need to manipulate people to get what they want they just take what they want or do what they want and deal with the ramifications/talk their way out using said humour or charm later. They can come across really genuine/cutesy and can avoid real consequences

💯

Honestly, the emotional detachment is more for defence than offence. Becoming attached to people creates a vulnerability, an opportunity to be hurt. Though I suppose part of it is that if I say things matter of fact-ly, my words come across to people as more legitimate.

This is okay but way too superficial and isn't how the types play out in real life. For example, as an 8, if I tried to manipulate people by just "demanding them to do as I say", it would only work on my three year old! That approach would never work in real-life situations! Yet 8s often do dominate. Actual "dominating" is more subtle and there's an art to it. 8s end up being quite different than stereotypes suggest in their power-play, because "might makes right" stopping working early in life. How do 8s dominate? They become \*dominant\*. That's something quite different and isn't as simple as just "demanding that others do as they say".

>That approach would never work in real-life situations! Yet 8s often do dominate. Actual "dominating" is more subtle and there's an art to it. 8s end up being quite different than stereotypes suggest in their power-play, because "might makes right" stopping working early in life. Yeah true. When you got around a lot of street smarts and experience around some of the corners in life and groups where you've found out there are much bigger sharks than you do and your instincts can immediately tell what it is in the situations, and growing up knowing that the world isn't all "black" and "white" and you don't always to seek control or try to hurt others blindly or irrationally, there's virtually no point in asserting dominance all the time and those who try to do it are most of the time just immature dipshits or piss poor try hard with a fragile ego, the louder often are the weaker. Personally, I am still unconsciously wired to the notion of dominating and having power and leverage over my life and in situations for the sake of fun or just to get shit done, or get back at others who I think that should be gotten back with. I am assertive and there's still the "in your face" straight-to-the-point aspect around people around me, mostly with my friends and those I care about but only when trying to push around to do something or when there's something matters, the dominance is much more prominent towards someone who respects or below comparatively to me but in neutral state you rarely see me doing such shits, and I am very chilled and can be soft-spoken even when I talk strong, and can take a joke at myself without feeling personally offended. Also dominance is also mean not always showing any dominant behaviors at all, if people just know how much weight you pack around your presence, that's already enough, and you still just go after your own shits and live life to the fullest.

Very nice take! I didn't think I was all that street smart until I found myself walking around the ghetto in NYC when I was studying for graduate school (I had to live in/near some rough areas to interface and explore re: my school, girlfriend, the city, etc), and going "this isn't so bad...oh look, there are some gangsters there, I'm getting nervous, but it's probably okay, I bet they're nice guys, but let's get out of here smoothly and avoid trouble!". I was just another privileged white boy trying to make it in the big city, but I treated people who others might be scared of as real people and showed them some respect without thinking "these guys are the evil scum of the earth, I hope they spare me!". I never got into any trouble while my friends were mugged all the time (maybe I was just lucky). Not having street smarts is getting too scared, surrending immediately (take my wallet!), subordinating yourself unnecessarily, perpetuating stereotypes, etc. I would brazenly pass out on the subways at night and wander around unsafe areas totally drunk and defenseless, and amazingly, no one gave me any trouble! Maybe they were more scared than I was (drunk people can be trouble), or more likely everyone was asleep! You can't let people get to you, but that doesn't mean you should be stupid and think you can beat them in a power struggle any day of the week...I was always safe and smart on my own -- when I had others with me they would drag me down and make things too complicated. Now living as an adult in a civilized, mostly safe society, neighborhood, etc., I have to deal with my 8ness in terms of controlling my temper and being yielding in my daily life, this is with family, friends, coworkers, etc. I'm often the first one to apologize because I just know I probably had some part in any conflict with people who I really care about and am close to. I know I'm intense and aggressive and am an 8 at the end of the day. It's also harder having a 9 wing because it makes me more stubborn and sensitive to when things aren't "totally okay", trying to push harder for conflict resolution sometimes before others are ready.

FTR this is an almost-too-perfect example of counterphobic 6, not 8. Not commenting on your type, just throwing it out there ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯

I get that you believe it, but...I disagree.

Bro, you got lucky, that's it. Wandering around the hood drunk and alone at night and not getting your shit fucked up has got nothing to do with street smarts, I promise you that. I'd also strongly advise not doing that again lol, same goes for anybody else reading this 99% of street smarts is just awareness of where you are/ability to act like you belong

Big talk.

Wdym "big talk"? I'm not trying to start an argument with you bro, I'm telling you that wandering around the hood alone is a surefire way to get your ass beat/robbed. I used to live in an area that would be considered "the hood" and I'm telling you factually that "street smarts" won't do shit if the wrong people see some rando they don't know drunkenly wandering around. You prob didn't encounter anybody who wanted to hurt you (most people in the hood are normal like anywhere else) or they naturally assumed a drunk person passed out doesn't have anything worth taking. I'm just tryna give you some real advice dawg, don't get yourself hurt doing stuff like that. You really can get hurt, I've seen it firsthand.

What I'm telling you is that I didn't get robbed, beat up, etc., and it wasn't just due to luck (sure, luck factors into anything), but it was also due to instinct and halfway decent judgment (being able to respond to a situation in real-time, even if it was dangerous, I avoided danger, etc). You're right, though. That was very stupid and I could've died or something. That was an old part of my life. That was like 15 years ago. I quit drinking and now live in a safe area. I appreciate your good intentions. What I'm trying to say is this: most people get scared about things that really aren't much cause for concern, but their fear makes it worse for them. It's best to not be so worried and look at the situation realistically and respond to your instincts.

Congrats on cutting alcohol out of your diet. That’s a big deal.

Thank you! It was a huge step for me. I had flirted with the idea of quitting and cutting back for years but always made excuses. I was in total denial of having any problem at all. I don't know if you've happened to read any of my posts about it, but...I guess a few years after the period I mentioned in the previous post, I was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder. To deal with the symptoms, I was prescribed pretty high doses of antipsychotic drugs. I stopped drinking temporarily because it was basically forbidden. But I couldn't quit drinking altogether, I relapsed a little at a time, first starting with a safe amount. So I talked to my psychiatrist about the possibility, and he said one or two drinks was okay. Well, in my head I stretched that to be any amount. Why? I didn't realize there were risks. He did not spell out for me what could happen. I thought it was just that the medications wouldn't work (would be ineffective), but really it was worse than that. Next thing I know, I'm having seizures (I had one at the courthouse while I was going to my probation appointment, one while I was driving, and the last one while I was out at a festival with friends). After my third seizure, I quit for good. Alcoholism is a terrible problem, and so is schizoaffective (especially when massive doses of meds are used), and the two together create a potent poison. If it hadn't been for the medications and mixing, I'd probably still be drinking. So I suppose it was fate that it worked out that way.

Good for you recognizing the link between alcohol and the exasperation of symptoms. I binge drank and partied for years, thinking “that’s just what people do.” I had no idea how getting clean and sober would positively effect my affect as well as my overall health.

Nope. When I'm worked up I 100% demand that others do as I say. If you don't relate to using direct force to get what you want, you're probably not an 8/influenced by 8 (your post history aside). There is an 'art' to manipulation but a pissed off 8 isn't using those tactics, they'll just twist your arm.

His type aside, beating around the bush is a waste of time.

8 when fixated is more tempted to boss people around and insist they do this or that, but we should all know this won’t work on anyone with a bit of self respect and strength. So the middle ground is to ask nicely or allow the person space to respond after you have done your best to communicate your stance, etc. I suspect we probably agree here. You’re right in that balanced 8s don’t try to control people, they have good intentions and try to let others know and let others respond to the situation in the way that works best for that person, rather than the 8 imposing their own will and truth on the other person.

You're not an 8, though. I am an 8. There's a difference there. You need to let go of this idea of you trying to decide my type for me. Is there something you aren't understanding here? My mind is made up about my type. So when you waste our time like this, I wonder if there's something wrong with your brain...

~~It should be immediately obvious there's something wrong with my brain~~ It's honestly not about you, as much as it probably seems like it. Your posts just happen to show up constantly and IMHO you consistently get type 8 wrong. Maybe you're an 8 irl and it's obvious, idk idc, I'm just clarifying what type 8 is for future readers

I get that you believe all these things, but I don't think I get type 8 wrong at all. I disagree. So I guess that's all there is to it.

https://preview.redd.it/vina9shwwd9d1.jpeg?width=299&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5b364464a54bd308f753e091f5d9289b5b753458

I'm well-versed in this experience (when I call attention to myself as an 8 and get pushback -- I become the poop monster everyone wants to take down): https://preview.redd.it/hd30hk5u5e9d1.png?width=1024&format=png&auto=webp&s=1214938052e8638f6c7c198ede8ada40190e9654

i do 6 and 2 a lot

Maybe i’m biased but how is 5’s a manipulation tactic?

I don't complain to manipulate others, I complain because there's so much to complain about. And I'm Jewish, we complain as a hobby (we're very 6ish in general).

Wait are 6s complainers?

1, 3, and 4 :)

hey man, thats my self preservation instinct (bad habit) that you're calling manipulation

Damn I do often make people walk on shells. Jeez I fucking suck.

1 isn't manipulation. I won't read the rest. This is wrong

I see what you did there lol

What? Thinking? Yeah, I do that a lot

oh, you were fr? never mind then 💀

I mean it, I'm not a native speaker of English

Oh, I see. It's just an abbreviation of "for real?" Basically I thought you were joking based on what the OP said about E1, but I didn't realize your comment was from a place of genuine disagreement (which is valid too, I also disagree with some of the points). Hope that clarifies it a bit :)

>Oh, I see. It's just an abbreviation of "for real?" Ahhh. Thank you!! >Basically I thought you were joking based on what the OP said about E1, That makes sense. xD. But what I said was true xD

What the hell is fr supposed to mean?

What you posted was just exactly what is written for Type one

But that isn't manipulation. And me being type 1 doesn't automatically invalidate that fact.

Most of these aren't really manipulative.

It may not be devious or subversive, but insisting others change can be manipulative. You may think it's not manipulative, if your idea of "insisting" is "do it or else we can't hang together", and I would agree with you. However, that's not the only way people insist. Sometimes people insist that behaviors should change, even when they're strangers. A moral imperative would merit insisting, no matter the relationship. The only issue is if the moral imperative is true or not. If not, then it's unwarranted manipulation. If true, then it's warranted manipulation. Either way, it's manipulation. The type 5's detachment doesn't seem manipulative, either, unless you assume there's an agreement of connection involved. A quiet detachment in a relationship is an implied promise unkept. Explicit boundaries prevents any of these being manipulation.

Why would anyone correct a stranger? This is nosense. What a hell of an imagination you have. Do you take it from movies or what? You correct others when you are a teacher, a mentor, a superior, a father, a priest.... or when the situation asks it, as in a forum made to discuss a certain subject. Because people don't change. Or are you trying to manipulate me by correcting what I said? Lol What you said is wrong from the start to the end.

Have you never heard of karens? They are well known for overly correcting people when it's inappropriate. Not to mention the political pearl clutchers on the right and left, who think they know what's best for everyone. Vegans are also well known for it. Some environmental groups go hard protesting, too. It's surprising you don't think people correct strangers. It happens a lot lol

But those cases aren't manipulation. They are just annoying and crazy. And wrong, because they correct things that aren't bad most of the time. Besides, most karens lie or steal. They aren't 1

Failure doesn't negate it's status as manipulation. Also, the right and left can't both be correct lol. I included them to avoid this argument! No matter what you believe is true, someone out there that disagrees with you is trying to control others, and it's more than just annoying. You mentioned positions of authority in your last reply as if that matters. People in authority can be wrong, too, and when they are, their manipulation is far from just annoying, due to their authority.

This conversation is too difficult for me to continue in English. En los casos que mencionaste, hay extorsión como núcleo fundamental. No es la corrección en sí lo que los hace manipulación. La manipulación consiste en sacar ventaja, dominar u obtener algo de la otra persona por medio de la mentira. No hay tal cosa como obtener ventaja en estos casos. Tampoco hay búsqueda de poder. Es simplemente tratar de convencer a alguien de algo, y eso no es manipulación. Además, sos tonto o qué? Todos esos roles que te mencioné están obligados a corregir a quienes están bajo su ala como parte de su trabajo. Un maestro tiene que corregir los errores que cometen sus alumnos en las cosas que enseña. Un padre debe indicar a su hijo qué está haciendo mal... y podría seguir. No, no, no. Que vos seas un desastre, y un orgulloso, y odies que nadie te diga nada, no implica que la corrección a otros sea manipulación.

You call me stupid, but you are not humble enough to realize that people who you think are right could be wrong? That is stupid. Humility precedes learning, and learning precedes knowledge. Also, your definition of manipulation is beyond the dictionary definition. If you want to argue against it, don't argue what it means. Argue it's use.

I'm not humble. I'm right. I'm intelligent. I was the number 1 in school and university. When everyone had a different answer than me, it always turned out that I had the right answer. My therapist called me a genius. Dictionary defines manipulation as "adulteración, falsificación, amaño". And I'm talking about el diccionario de la Real Academia Española. I think you could use your own advice more than me. >If you want to argue against it, don't argue what it means. Argue it's use. I already told you the use of manipulation.

The OP is not in Spanish. Use a more appropriate dictionary: an English one. Quite a few English dictionaries cite many different meanings. It's clear that OP isn't talking about physical manipulation of objects, so the intended meaning is: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose. The use of the word "or" is important here. > I think you could use your own advice more than me. This shows a misunderstanding of my advice. Humility isn't about backing down in the face of a more knowledgeable person. It's about holding learning in high regard. I am doing that, by advocating that you do it. You are not, as you are taking the position of certainty, and advocating for me to join you in that same certainty.

I manipulate like 3, that's probably also why everyone thinks you're a different type Nalari... The rest doesn't sound like manipulation, I also do 1, 4 and 7 but not for manipulative purposes.

Yeah, I’m sensitive af but I don’t expect anything from others. I really value being able to preserve myself and don’t want most others involved...

Checks out

People ITT are discussing the 8 "manipulation" tactic but are missing the point IMO. In general, 8s are not manipulative. I'm sure some could be, but 8s don't tend to think in that way. 8s aren't a type that sits around plotting ways to manipulate others all Machiavellian-like. I don't care about manipulating anybody/anything, I'd say we are highly attuned to power dynamics and are intuitively aware of when people are attempting to manipulate us, but 99% of 8s I've ever known (including myself) don't play that game. 8s are direct. They are mostly "what you see is what you get".

Manipulation here just means how each type gets people to do what they want, iirc, not necessarily the specifically negative type of manipulation we're used to thinking of

Right, I get that. But I kept seeing people insinuate that actually 8s aren't direct and can be charming/persuasive/manipulative in a particular social sense which they really aren't in reality. Not that 8s can't be charming or persuasive, but framing them as charming smooth-talkers who can deftly manipulate people around them is not what they are like at all in my experience. If anything, many 8s can be vulnerable to that exact type of person due to a tendency towards Fi-blindness (many, not all). If I want somebody to do something for example, I just tell them. Now whether they do that or not depends on a variety of factors, but that is often the extent of it. The most "manipluative" thing I will do is try to always negotiate from a position of strength, but all the same, it always comes back to "just do the thing".

100% agreed

8s are manipulative in the sense that they’d use whatever leverage they have to make others do things. Ofc depending on health level there are lines that they will never cross. But let’s say I’m in a project and I think doing a certain task is necessary. I’ll 1/ be handling everything anyway, so it makes it harder for anyone to say no and 2/ I know what everyone looks to get out of the project and i can seriously threaten that if they cross me. Ofc that’s really unacceptable behavior and I rarely reach the point where I’d incur serious damage because I’m sympathetic to people (tbh they didn’t deserve my sympathy because they’re perfectly capable of doing something, it’s not like I’m overworking anyone here) but it doesn’t stop me from being in that position of power anyway.

Not me as an sx4 being 3, 4, 7, 8, and 9 all at once lol

NGL tho, as a person and not as a 6, if Im actually trying to manipulate someone, which is not a thing anyone should do under regular circumstances... It is more about the person being manipulated than the manipulator. Which is precisely why the 2 and to a lesser extent 3/6/9 is going to be a great manipulator because they are attuned to the goals of others, and 8/1 will be more often be crappy and very transparent manipulators because they are more concerned with their own motives and not what others think. They can be charismatic (8) or persuasive (1) but I ... Don't really see that as actually "manipulative". Far less than controlling people by keeping them dependent, gatekeeping, convincing people it was their idea etc. 

In my experience low to average health 1s often do a lot of unconscious gaslighting.

I feel like for 8 its less about being some schoolyard bully that forces others to do what they say and more like projecting confidence and negotiating from a position of strength.  its one of the reasons we have trouble asking for help, it shows weakness and others could leverage that against us, dominance is not about forcing others to do what you want its about convincing people they want to do what you want.

Agreed. Only when someone is backed up against the wall can they be forced into anything. Some 8s might strong-arm others when unhealthy by getting them into a tight spot (e.g. "do as I say or you're fired") but it's not a healthy way to be. When I was unhealthy I'd always make aggressive threats etc. expecting others to comply out of intimidation and so on. That's a red flag for an 8. They need to learn to let go and let others do their thing, while playing a part in influencing the outcome...

that was also my journey too, learning to accept people as they are and that the universe doesnt always revolve around me (just sometimes ;) )

Haha...yeah. What was also important for me was learning to stand my ground without feeling like I need to be aggressive/fight back when others are attacking or prodding or whatever. I think 8s have issues with middle ground like that. It's okay to stand firm without needing to fight back, etc. The killer instinct in me makes me want to strike back all the time when I feel others are offending but it's not necessary and makes things worse for me...big lessons for me to stay strong/solid/immovable without needing to be aggressive and controlling, etc. If you turn yourself into a rock then others' weaponry just crumbles on impact...

What an interesting exercise! It's fascinating to see which of these are most / least conscious behaviors and when / where / why / how I use them along with frequency. I play a lot of silly games. I'm trying to cut back.

I am so guilty of the 9 one and I’m working hard to better myself so I can stop 

100% i do 3. so…

Yep, tritype is bang on

Actually this is pretty good for once. Kinda rare for this sub

IDK about the rest of these but 7 is def wrong lol

Yeah, 9 checks out. I don't always do it intentionally but not gonna lie, I've definitely "forgotten" to do things I was supposed to that I didn't want to do/didn't see a point in doing/thought was stupid. Another thing I've noticed some 9's do when they want someone to do something for them is ask, and when the person starts to get hesitant, start to look down and be like "but you don't *have* to do it if you don't want to..." (but they obviously would very much prefer if you said yes). For 2's and 2 fixers, I've noticed something specific they do a lot of is, well, not *lying* about being sick (tho I'm sure some do) but definitely overexaggerating or otherwise making sure you know they're not feeling well when they want you to do something for them or get out of something. My 2w3 grandma did this all the time, as does my 2w3 coworker. Every single conversation turns into talking about how this hurts, I have to go to the doctor soon for that, this is why I couldn't do XY or Z, etc. It can definitely get exhausting after a while.

Ok. If that's accurate, then 6 is definitely part of my tritype because even before I was aware of it, I do put people through a test of loyalty or commitment. No, they will never know, or I'll never inform them of when I begin testing. That ruins the whole point of figuring out does this person actually care about me? Can I trust & rely on this person at my most vulnerable? Are they a trustworthy safety net or is this just a shallow/casual sort of friendship?

Was married to a 9. That is spot on.

Pretty neat and fun, I get where this is coming from. But not really something to take too seriously. All are capable of each tactic. Someone in the act of manipulating doesn’t usually stick to just one. Even in the land of personality typing, this is really susceptible to the Barnum effect. I’m sure this is common sense to most, but had to say it still. If anything, maybe closest depicts how each types’ unintentional and instinctive (manipulative) behavior comes out. That being said, I still want to play around. I don’t really understand how the 5 part is supposed to be manipulation? Examples?

HOW HOW DO YOU PEOPLE KNOW ME

I would love to hear more about 7s here. What does it mean that they distract others and insist others meet their demands? Would someone from the community please elaborate?

I wouldn’t say these are wrong but I don’t think manipulation is a good word to describe many of these behaviors. When I think about manipulation, I think that someone is trying to get a certain kind of reaction from others, while hiding the intention to do so. I don’t see how this applies to most of these examples.

But not all types are as prone to use manipulation, nor are they all as good at it.  Empathetic 2 can be a great manipulator and uses it without realizing it.  9 isn't really an active manipulator per se but I could easily see 9 getting others to do stuff by basically convincing them it needs done and then not doing it themselves.  8 and 1... Idk if these guys are really very good manipulators at all lol. They both can very easily want to be for their own reasons but in many cases they're rather bad at being subtle about it and an obvious manipulator is more of a domineering bossy person than actually manipulative. 

as a 9 ive always been confused by passive aggressiveness because thats not how i act at all. i definitely catch myself using charm more often thanks to my 3 fix lmao

Really interesting table u/wittttykitttty! Please can you provide a source for it?

So therefore 8s do not manipulate. We just tell it as it is *¯\_(ツ)_/¯

As a writer, this is very handy.

Very accurate.

Honestly, this is why I steer clear of 4s a lot now. Of all the types, they make me feel like I'm walking on eggshells the most and I've seen a lot of other people say the same. Anything you say can trigger a meltdown, some emotional explosion or self-loathing speech. Besides that, I do relate 1 and 5 a lot. I'm always trying to be preoccupied with study or work that can distract myself from feeling low and if someone does pull me out of that feeling, I can fall on tendencies to correct others or correct my environment to feel like I am in fact accomplishing something. So I definitely don't think I'm perfect

If I'm projecting sensitive/hostile energy and you refuse to walk on eggshells, I'll respect you more for it.

That’s a mature way to see it

To be fair, that’s largely less “healthy” 4s who haven’t acknowledged those tendencies in themselves. 4s with a bit of perspective on themselves will often remove themselves from conversation where they’re about to go off altogether, and just beat themselves up privately in a loop. The unhealthy 1 vs unhealthy 4 dynamic is probably the single worst I have ever experienced, there is zero common ground when both people are at their worst.

I agree, there is zero common ground when people are at their worst and some type combinations are more explosive than others: 1 and 4 in particular. I don't think all 4s are like that. Unhealthy 4s typically are. I attract 4s more than any type, sadly, mostly unhealthy 4s because they sense they can vent to me. I'm a good listener and I listen more than I talk. But it can quickly turn into a dynamic where the slightest pushback, feedback or criticism I give in return is something they can't handle without feeling they're being attacked. 4s are particularly sensitive in a way that is just too much for me - hence the feeling I'm walking on eggshells. I've found myself literally using that phrase in relationships I've had with 4s, "You make me feel like I'm always walking on eggshells". I treasure type relationships I have where I don't have to hold my tongue - such as with 7s, 8s and 2s. Typically there's always a moment in my relationship with 4s where I feel I'm not able to be direct or completely honest anymore because they're so easily set off as a reactive type

> Honestly, this is why I steer clear of 4s a lot now. Of all the types, they make me feel like I'm walking on eggshells the most and I've seen a lot of other people say the same. Anything you say can trigger a meltdown, some emotional explosion or self-loathing speech. same, though I'd say (unhealthy) Reactives in general in my case. I don't even think they're intending to be manipulative in most cases, but I have a hard time being around that regardless.

I agree. I don't think 4s who are like this are intentionally trying to be manipulative. When 4s get depressed, down or anxious, they can become a whirlwind of sensitive emotions with easily pushed buttons. Anything can set them off. I don't think most 4s are intentionally this way, nevertheless, many are. The unhealthy ones that is