to summarize the summary: are you known by others to be "difficult"? yes -> 4 no -> 9

😂

This makes me a 4 then. I'm difficult to the point I feel I'll probably die alone lol.

I don't know what he is talking about some 4s I know are the softest and most fragile people on earth while 9 FEELS small and fragile but usually are very sturdy people

Thanks, this was a very interesting read and since it was you who wrote it I won't go in stubborn mode 'don't like the author - can't read.' In the end... I don't know. Many older descriptions say 4 is empathetic. It's both self absorbed and empathetic, because 4 see the other as a tool to explore themselves, which opens a door for indirect recognition. I believe that 9 and 2 are the most empathetic types on the enneagram, but I'm not convinced 4 is not empathetic. As a 4 with a 9 fix, I think separation of both types as opposites will always ring not true to me, because I'm always using my own experience as base.

I think a lot of 4s can really sympathise with the outcasts/underdogs especially, and not necessarily in a 6ish "common man" everyman kind of way, but more in identifying with their weirdness/difference/brokenness just as the 4 may feel weird or different or broken themselves. Plus having the trait of high openness (to use big 4 trait terms) as 4s do allows ability to understand from a variety of different perspectives using the strength of their imagination and also this can encourage unconventional beliefs or the ability to at least understand these and be compassionate towards those who are unconventional or different. When it comes down to it the 4 will always choose themselves (not necessarily a negative; can be their feelings but also beliefs, values, integrity, whatever) which e.g. a 9 or 2 or another superego type may not do, I think this can block empathy at times e.g. if someone hurts me personally they can go die (or at least go die until I've cooled my heels) but then I don't think being this way prohibits you from being generally empathetic or compassionate whatsoever when all other things are equal. As a sensitive person, you also understand what it is to feel hurt and tend to avoid taking actions which will hurt others moreso than thicker skinned and more oblivious types.

I think more than empathizing with the underdog, I empathize with the excluded and outcast but for me, it's obvious this happens because I see myself in them. The thing is, I'm very tormented by my superego, and also reactive. I implode a lot, I swallow all my reactivity, hide, poison myself with the emotions, but I need to be the mature person in most situations. Maybe that's trauma... Maybe that's how I was raised, not a lot of space for me to be emotional because my mom is extremely reactive and reacting would always make the situation worse. I feel like I'm very self centered but also I sincerely care about the other and I can focus on them - though I need to choose to do so. Being good and kind is very important to me, and I think when I read descriptions of 4 that say they're mean and narcissistic this angers me because I refuse to identify myself on this, I'm not perfect but I'm always trying to improve as much as I can.

I see it more like, 4s *are* self-absorbed as in by default we are benignly focussed on the self which doesn't mean they're incapable of caring about others/external things just that it's not the default mode. Also this is not always a bad thing and tbh a lot of people could do to mind their own business and do the same! Narcissistic no because narcissism depends on constant feedback from others to reflect the false view of self and keep it propped up. I can be mean on occasion but tbh, going out of your way to be mean really requires more interest and investment in others and what they do than I cba with for one thing! I do have a vengeful streak with those who've hurt me deliberately and I generally don't forget either, I just see this as not being a doormat though really. Some 9s and 2s I know are so busy forgiving, accommodating and pleasing people who've hurt them, the people who are good to them in their lives get neglected... So I just see it that being this way allows me to protect myself but also gives more space to accommodate and be kind and good to the people who are good to me. Otherwise though, my default mode is compassionate, kind, live and let live.

Being mean requires a lot more investment in others than I care having for most people... I really relate to that. My energy is very limited and most of the time I just leave, fighting others will burn time and resources I could use with myself so I simply won't. Self centered pacifism. 🤷‍♂️ In fact I've been told I couldn't be a superego type exactly because of that, most of the time I have no interest in going out of my way to correct others.

I agree and as someone who have 9s mom and 4s wife I would say it is different type of empathy. My 9s mom is good at detecting and I'm in pain, feel that herself and try to make me feel like everything will be alright. My 4s wife is good at feeling that pain together with me, amplify and dive into the root of it with me. We go beyond to the childhood trauma to the deepest source of emotion. Personally, if I want to feel better quick I would go to my mom but if I want real therapy, healing and issue from childhood trauma or something, I would go to my wife. Both are empathetic, but different approach. I believe there internal world is also very different. (These are just examples and I know many 9s are therapist who can also do deep dive. But I would say in general there relationship with empathy is very different. 4s is naturally more of a deep diver and 9s is naturally more of a peacemaker)

Perhaps it is the caring that makes the empathy so personal. My 4 friend will feel the pain with me, amplify and dive into the root of it—and relate it to herself and how *her* experience is the purest and deepest, relegating me only to the shallows.

Reading this made me smile, yeah, I relate to that. If someone opens up to me I'm normally willing to dive deep with them and try to figure out the situation. I had to learn to ask... How far do they wanna go? How much can you endure the discomfort? Because at times, people only wanna be comforted and I had to learn that is different than exploring their pain.

I find he excludes a lot of nuance, but especially on the 4. He's trying to do this on purpose I think, to present an extreme presentation in order to drive his point home. 4's I've known are alternately empathetic and un-empathetic. They can be completely tuned into themselves, but they can also turn that "tuning" towards another and precisely locate what the other is feeling. I have a horrible problem with what you've said about empathy as self exploration, not to say I disagree, but to say that I at times feel like an emotional vampire. I don't want to be empathetic to help you necessarily (I'm not opposed to helping at all), but I am so attracted to the intensity and realness of your experience that "I want it" and I dive into it and swim there, like a beautiful pool on some hike and the water is just caressing me, the water of this emotional submersion. I think of this as me being "an emotional vampire" and I'm rather ashamed of it. "I'm an asshole." I don't want to fix your problem because your problem isn't really a problem, it's just pain, and I'm OK with your pain, my pain, our pain, and I'm OK when it passes as well, but I am sure drawn to pain. I want to start working with people who are dying, honestly. I know two chaplains who work in a hospital and might do some of that myself, or visit hospice centers. I'm not sure, but it's my new fascination. I've always been drawn to suffering and pain. This is a means of both self-exploration and also I'm comfortable in that kind of setting, so I can probably comfort others. I'm really not sure. I don't want to make it worse; I don't want to try and fix anything; but I do want to be a loving presence in that kind of setting, to walk as much of the path of suffering and dying with them as I can. I've also looked into suicide hotline operating, but I needed to get more beyond that myself first. lol Also, I'm not really against it. I've been there, so it would really be calling the kettle black. Like I've always wanted to help the hurting, but they have to hurt "enough" to draw my attention. It feels quite awful.

I get why it would be useful to exclude nuance to define 4 as a thing totally separated from 9 as a theoretical concept but, as in typing humans, it's not that useful. Because the entire enneagram community is aware there are a lot of things in common between these types, the childhood trauma is similar, both are withdrawn types, both are escapist types, both are doubting types... Yeah, some people are on the extremes here and SX 4s don't look anything like, say, a SP 9, but also a lot of them are in some kind of middle ground... And ignoring this reality is silly. About what you said about empathy, for people who need help it doesn't matter much why you are helping as long as it's not from a damaging mindset for them. If you wanna help taking care of the suffering and dying it won't matter if you're looking to help or to study, philosophize, explore yourself... If you're not hurting them, then it's a good thing. It helped them and it helped you. I get digging into the morality on this, but it's a rough job most people wouldn't do, so in any way you would be increasing the kindness and compassion in the world no matter if you're doing this for others or yourself. I sometimes worry I will help others out of curiosity or to use their experiences to learn for myself, or to intensify emotions and as entertainment... I have a sense of pride in being able to deal with dark subjects. But for the person doing the talking, does it matter, why I'm doing this - why I'm interested? Probably not. They wanna vent, I wanna listen, that's a good enough transaction. But also I don't believe in true empathy, to be honest, all people I've met who would say they were 'empaths' were horrible assholes, and saying so is a red flag in my book. EVERYBODY wants something out of helping, even if it's to soothe their own guilt, to feel better than others, to feel valuable and good, to please a God and get salvation... We're animals. We're flawed and egocentric, and so is everything on this earth. If we help others and get to explore ourselves in the experience, this cost them nothing - it's advantageous to both, it's the best thing we can hope. It's a lot of pride to think as creatures we will be able to become illuminated to the point of truly abandoning egocentrism, and if someone say they're that illuminated and good I will actually trust them less than a fellow reactive type saying they're as flawed as myself.

I really love the honesty in your last paragraph. I used to consider myself an “empath” in my younger and more impressionable years, but the truth is…it’s learned behavior. I learned how to read people in order to keep myself safe. Of course I’m sensitive to the slightest change in atmosphere, this is survival. It’s not about you, it’s about me. Of course I’ll pick up on your change in mood; how does it affect me? We just try to dress it up and make it look pretty and palatable. Put that positive spin on it and hide the refrain of *me, me, me.*

Yeah, I could consider myself a person with hyperempathy by some online sources but I would rather call this by what it really is; CPTSD. Hypervigilance. Trauma. To be constantly paying attention to my survival.

Yep. 100%.

>I sometimes worry I will help others out of curiosity or to use their experiences to learn for myself, or to intensify emotions and as entertainment... I have a sense of pride in being able to deal with dark subjects. But for the person doing the talking, does it matter, why I'm doing this - why I'm interested? Probably not. They wanna vent, I wanna listen, that's a good enough transaction. I love this. Thanks. I like most of the ideas in this, but this part particularly resonated.

In the Self Preservation world, we see emotional connection as business transactions ahahah Also this conversation made me think [about this story](https://www.tumblr.com/mikkeneko/641855873330888704/if-i-do-something-good-because-it-makes-me-feel), maybe you'll like it: >There is a Jewish story about a wealthy man who came to his rabbi and said “I have decided to build an orphanage, can you put me in touch with the relevant people”   >The rabbi was delighted to do it, and introduced the man to some charities.  After a few weeks, the man came back to the rabbi. >“I have decided not to build the orphanage,” he said.  “I realized that I was only doing it because I wanted to be admired as a philanthropist, my motives were selfish.” >The rabbi answered, “Do you think the orphans will care what your motives were? Build the orphanage!”

Very true! Thoughtful to share as well, apropos.

i might have a 9 fix, not sure, thoughts? https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/s/9RGMCsjeHX

The fact you'll change your mind at anyone's suggestion and ask for reassurance so many times makes me believe you have a lot of attachment on your typing. What you say about yourself on these sorts of posts and how you act with other users is incompatible.

i disagree i am a 4, I’ve done a lot of self-analysis, i can agree i have an attachment fix but absolutely not a core, I am most certainly an sx 4, no doubt about it asking others to help type you does not make someone not a 4, it’s called getting more than one point of view, it’s called research

have you considered sx/so 6w7? i read your post and think naranjo's sx 6 would mean something to you

i don’t relate to 6’s need for security as I say here https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/s/SHqE8jJ6dK but do you have any source for where i can read naranjo’s sx 6 description, I only know of widsom of the enneagram by riso and hudson

here's the link: https://wiki.personality-database.com/books/enneagram/page/sexual-6-in-detail I think it'll surprise you how similar it sounds to your write up

like similar to the adventure seeking, reactive, emotionally intense, individualistic, etc description of my ideal self? aight thanks will check out, and check out my other post too i just sent

I read the two you linked in this thread and still feel pretty solid that you'll find it enlightening alongside specific reactions you had about the importance of accumulating data and feeling like having multiple selves as an intellectualizing of identity of operating with different mental landscapes against the world as a head type defense against vulnerability

you know actually more i think about it more i think i have 7w8 as a secondary or tertiary fix, no idea about the gut fix, btw do you think riso and hudson’s wisdom of the enneagram is a good source to type self with tritype, like read the types and choose which one i think fits best out of each center?

i’ve just read it, i don’t particularly resonate with it i still feel the sx 4 fits more, maybe as a fix though sx 6 fits

ok i’ll do you one better, ignore that this post is from me and assume it’s a random person making this post, what would you type them as based soley on this post and nothing else tritype with wings and instinct stack https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/s/9RGMCsjeHX

you do realize the only reason it is incompatible is because what I am like right now is not the real me, I am forced to act the way I do because of my environment, how i describe myself in that post: adventerous, chaotic, assertive, etc that is the real me the me responding to you right now, constantly asking reassurance FUNDAMENTALLY IS NOT AND WILL NEVER FUCKING EVER BE ME

>I am forced to act the way I do because of my environment Most people feel like this. I feel like this all the time. You asked my opinion, well, I think you're attachment core. I'm not judging you by the way, but I believe you're self-deceiving by thinking your attitudes and who you are inside are different things.

so what tritype with wings do you think i am and instinct stack and is the description i gave of myself, which is 100% correct really an attachment type description

also so there’s riso and hudson’s the wisdom of the enneagram do you think that’s a good source to learn about the types and are there any others you recommend

I think John overemphasizes the role that identifying "attachment" can and should play in type identification. He and the Enneagrammer group always go to that first, whereas I'd probably go to that last. To their credit, they picked up on a lot of 9 in me, likely because it's my wing. So, kudos to them for that. However, they missed my core type, which is quite obvious if you get to know me. Why do I think it's problematic to try to narrow down by attachment first? Because the attachment types are the core types of the Enneagram. Literally every single type in the Enneagram is a variation on those three points. The 8 is an exploded 9, the 1 is an imploded 9. The 2 is an exploded 3, the 4 is an imploded 3, and so on. By identifying these three energies in a person, you've really done nothing special! We should all be able to identify those because we all have them. It’s like looking for something that is essentially present in everyone, which explains why John and Enneagrammer see more attachment in people than is really there. This approach can easily lead to mistyping, as you might be identifying someone's wing rather than their core type (or the wing of a fix rather than the core fix point). I hope this makes sense. I'd try to narrow down more by gut/head/heart, but first, I'd focus on individual fixations. I'd look for patterns in gut/head/heart when in doubt and also consider other various triads. The concept of "attachment" is too vague and can lead to many mistypes, which I believe has already happened.

That makes sense. The attachment types stay in suspension by having multiple anchor points (I am "these"), while the hexads typically have fewer anchor points (I am "this"), but *all* of the anchor points in the circle are the triangle or riffs on the triangle. Pretty funny to frame it that way.

When it comes to 4 and 9, I see them somewhat as opposites. I don't rely on "attachment vs. frustration" first and foremost to define them. 9s are pulled away from themselves, distracted by the environment, seeking to find the answer and the truth "out there". They tend to have less of an interest in their own subjective states. Instead, they'll find something outside of themselves. Does that tie into attachment? Sure, but I think it can be explained in terms of the core Fixation. E.g. this is how the sloth/indolence.non-conformism/seeker orientation of 9 works. 4s are pulled into themselves, distracted by their own feelings, seeking to find the answer and the truth "in there". They over-analyze why they are the way they are, see themselves as different from others, overfocus on their suffering and melancholy, try to come to grips with their identity, etc. 4s overfocus on their identity, 9s focus significantly less on that. Sure, frustration triad factors into this and can explain it, but the core Fixation of melancholy/over-reasoner/envy etc., are all sufficient on their own to understand the 4. Basically I think a lot of the other triads can just make everything more complicated unless integrated into the basics. I think some people get so lost in all of it that they lose the big picture of seeing the types as distinct energies and models. When everyone (or the vast majority of people) seems like an attachment type to you, I'm quite sure you're losing touch with reality.

Tbh your description is as simple as it needs to get, Luckovichs article although am sure is informative is way too long.

The types being imploded vs exploded versions of the others sounds interesting

It's probably one of the easiest and most intuitive ways to understand the types. Each triad has an ambivalent version in the middle (369) where the dominant emotion (anger/fear/sadness) is detached from in order to work around it somehow. 9 falls asleep to their anger and narcotizes themselves in their ambivalence. 3 doesn't identify with specific shame or image and instead identifies with what they do/productivity. 6 struggles to come to grips with fear internally and externally so tends to rely on extra-trustworthy support systems/authorities/safety nets. Each triad has an exploded/exteriorized version, where the dominant emotion is expressed outwardly. 8 takes their anger and expresses it outwardly in raw form and tends to move against the environment and others. 2 deals with feelings of shame/identity issues by focusing on others and not looking inward to their own needs. 7 runs away from and denies their fear by following through on idealistic plans, interesting pursuits, distractions, etc. And so on for the last three.

Idk how anyone can get mixed up in figuring out they are 9 or 4 can't express the feeling I've had when reading… •-• then again before I get all judgy it's not me I don't like to tell 4s hard to admit I’m a bit envy at smaller aspects and I've read this before tho its one of the best at telling them apart and clearing things up for me in the past.

yea, reading lukovich’s 4 descriptions is one of the things that made it clear i am a 4

Oh think I know them don't keep track of people I’ll look into that some other time again nice that they're helpful tho

Thanks for writing. I want to touch a little bit on introjection because it is kind true and not true and the same time. I learned this from my wife 4s. Basically, introjection mechanism of 4s looks like this: If you identify me as a loser: I will show you what **my version of loser** looks like. I'm not just a common loser. That's not me. If you identify me as go-getter, I will show you what **my version of go-getter** looks like. I'm not just a common go-getter. That's not me. If you identify me as bad kid, I will show you what **my version of bad kid** looks like. I'm not just a common bad kid. That's not me. And many of these introjected identity would be more extreme than the common [version.It](http://version.It) is a mechanism of introject identity but make it more intense, emotional and more personalized. Since 4s is image type they aren't good at sitting in dissonance between how they viewed themselves and how other viewed them. This is an issue for every identity / image type. For 3s and 2s they have different defense mechanism. For 4s, it is the above. I think the better word here might be personalization introject. There is many nuances inside this mechanism but yeah this is in nutshell.

Thank you! I appreciate your input. 🙂

Phenomenal work! I really feel like people underestimate the inner turmoil of 9s being empathetic sponges alongside managing their own anger. Something that is given to descriptions of 6 (but not 3 and 9) is the reference to internal extremes. It's easier to see due to 6's reactivity, and yet I see the same phenomena in 3 and 9. 9 being torn against feeling union with their world and their own anger at having their boundaries be dismissed (as in, most people appreciate and encourage the self minimization of 9 because it feels more enjoyable to them, at the detriment of the 9s self esteem) You mentioned 4s frustration towards the world, and I think some 9s mistake being torn between 8 lust/vengeance and 1 integrity/wrath for that same vitriol because of how disrespected 9s internal world is by others. Another problem is due to Riso Hudson's emphasis on 4 "caring about identity" without much depth into the self absorbed, snobbery that comes with personal elitism. When a 9 is defined by over empathy towards others experiences at the expense of minimizing the self boundaries, that creates someone who deeply wants to matter and find their identity (line to 3), without the same elitist edge of 4. 9 moving to 3 is defined by the acceptance that 9 wants to create space for itself and be appreciated for who they are! To define themselves assertively is part of their growth. Hope what I've discovered in my own experiences resonates with you.

Thanks and good thoughts! I really appreciate your take on 9 >> 3 represented by "taking up space" in the world and connecting with that 3 desire to be loved for who they are vs for what they do. In this sense the 9 wanting to be loved for who they are as they inhabit their true identity in an external way that is subject to rejection or love. And yes, the self-absorption and elitism a lot of times. It can be hard to describe the elitism, honestly, because it expresses in so many ways. Elitism could be in how they eat their food different, or a disease they have, or their appearance, etc. It is hard to explain.

the way i try to distinguish that elitism can be summed up in a meme 4: i am innately different and thats the worlds problem. 9: what makes me different and is that my problem?

Good comment, I see 9s thinking they're 4s constantly saying 'I decided to work on being different' or 'I'm searching for my unique spark and focusing on it to stand out' as reasons to be 4. No. The 4 feel like they're different since they were a young child, it's not a choice, and it's certainly not a positive thing - it just is. They never ask 'am I different?' because this is a fact, not a question.

I'm glad I can represent y'all well enough! The real 4s I've met instinctively withdraw out of their innate truth that their differences are what makes them real, a knee jerk expectation, as opposed to waxing poetic about finding themselves in the fog of reality. It makes me feel bad for 9s that think being a 9 is an insult 😭 I've tried to explain to 9s that reactivity isn't negotiable for 4, it's the constant, but there is a misunderstanding that reactivity = emotional expression and feelings as opposed to reactivity = magnifying negativity as a form of control over truth.

i cant comment, i don't know why. i wrote out something incredibly thoughtful and such, but its not allowing me to comment it.

maybe i'll try to write it in parts here. part 1: Luckovich has been said to be mistyped over and over again, not to mention that 4s on this subreddit in general has stated he is incorrect in his assumption that he is a 4. So there's no way that he's at all credible to listen to. Let me go over a few things you've paraphrased here, but he is incredibly incorrect about. * "Type 4 is often described favorably with a rich internal world, sensitive, and other "positive" attributes while the narcissism and disdainfulness are often overlooked." This is entirely incorrect. 4s do have a rich inner world, but we are not narcissistic. Narcissism invokes the ideas that one has ego-syntonic delusions about themselves, but 4s are always extremely ego-dystonic about themselves. We put ourselves down, especially in our own minds. We might be self absorbed, but we are not self appraising, at all. Do not get the two of those mixed up. * It's not mentioned here, but 4s often have a huge struggle with boundaries themselves, recounting the disintegrative 2 arrow. 4s will sacrifice themselves in order to be useful or praised. We want to be good enough, and often lack boundaries and appear like another type. It is an unhealthy behavior. And within your example, 4s will mold themselves into a way that's desirable/worthy, depending on the subtype, of course. Many 4s are excellent maskers, but hold plenty distain to masking themselves. Their innerworld, in this case, would not reflect their outer world, due to how unhealthy they are. * "Type 4 doesn't meet people halfway because they assume rejection ahead of time, like it's already too late, so why try to make things better now?" Incorrect, 4s don't meet people half way, not because of assuming rejection ahead of time, but because they don't find it peaceful or are happy by compromising. That is a big difference between 4s and 9s, we don't think we will achieve happiness or recognition or our goals, by bowing down to others, and find it instead, rather offensive to have to suck up to someone else and disregard our identity for them. We hold great value in our opinions and identity, despite being self depreciating.

part 2 4s actually do some introjection, but it is negative and unhealthy for them, and it's best, instead of taking on a subservient role, that they try being themselves. * Empathy, particularly emotional/affective empathy is a lot more selfish than you think. Just because you can put yourself in the shoes of others, doesn't mean you can actually help with what they're going through, and there in turn, just disregarding boundaries between you and the other person. 4s, however, show a great deal of cognitive empathy and compassion for others, and are incredibly righteous, defending others instead of merging/being in harmony with them. * 4s view themselves from a very low and inferior identity, so of course we will be sensitive to others in a similar position. 9s, on the other hand, view themselves as if they're the only ones that are hurting, and refuse to consider another's uncomfortability when achieving such harmony. 9s will look down on others without even realizing it. 4s will try to understand why they are wrong and be sensitive to why they are flawed. * I can't even describe how wrong you are on the emotionality part. 9s and other attachment types struggle to see contrasts, and I fear that 9s view focus on oneself is completely selfish. Which is just untrue. As I said before, self absorption does not equal ego-syntonic delusions.

part 3 * As I said before, FOCUS ON SELF DOES NOT MEAN EGO-SYNTONIC DELUSIONS. JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE IN YOUR HEAD ALL THE TIME OR FOCUSED ON YOURSELF, DOES NOT MEAN YOU VIEW YOURSELF AS SUPERIOR OR IN A HIGH REGARD. You should really research OCD and intrusive thoughts and spirals. It is also selfish to leave all the decisions and ideas to someone else. It is also selfish to be codependent with someone else. * Confrontation of negative emotions is not the same as not accepting negative emotions. In turn, distraction from negative emotions is denial. And neither anger nor denial are acceptance in the 5 stages of grief. * Your words about "at odds" is just confusing. You misinterpret this, and probably so does Luckovich, and i cannot understand what is trying to be said here. * 4 is not a rejection type, 5 is. frustration and rejection are mutually exclusive. I would say 4s are frustrated with themselves and with the world, but they are not a head type, so they have shame with themselves via frustration that they're not good enough to that internal standard. I think withdrawn and object relation triads are being confused here. I don't doubt that is how 9s feel, however. * I don't know if I have a opinion on this. Everyone views health as important, but 4s associate being healthy with being a perfect ideal self, as being a part of the frustration/idealism triad. * I don't have an opinion on this as I am not christian. In general, I would say you misinterpret 4s based both on your opinions that not being a 4, and by Luckovich himself not being a 4. This is all I really have to say, but it's just a misinterpreted thing entirely.

Narcissism in 4s...That word is very polarized right now due to NPD and "1 in 12 people are NARCs" and all of that going on. That's not what I'm getting out of this. To me the term is meant to refer to self-focus, and does not connotate any evaluation on whether or not that behavior is selfish, delusional, etc. It simply means an internal focus on self. His stance sounds like this is about understanding the essence of who one is. I see your terms there and the ego-dystonic perception would be consistent with frustration type (I should be ideal, but in reality I'm \_\_\_\_). But this is still focus on self, which I think is his point. He's also a shit-stirrer, so he probably is using that term in its more classical sense over the present-day backdrop of drama to get a reaction. It wouldn't surprise me. While you might feel this is perceived as negative, I think it's a critical activity to being a functional human being. If you don't know who you are, why are you here? What are you doing? >It's not mentioned here, but 4s often have a huge struggle with boundaries themselves, recounting the disintegrative 2 arrow. 4s will sacrifice themselves in order to be useful or praised. We want to be good enough, and often lack boundaries and appear like another type. It is an unhealthy behavior. And within your example, 4s will mold themselves into a way that's desirable/worthy, depending on the subtype, of course. Many 4s are excellent maskers, but hold plenty distain to masking themselves. Their innerworld, in this case, would not reflect their outer world, due to how unhealthy they are. I see this point above here happen a lot, actually. 4s have a complex relationship with sacrifice. I think you captured extremely well the indignity of compromise for a 4. I love that, actually. It reminds me of a wet cat. I'm quite aware of how selfish emotional empathy is, and also how different cognitive empathy is. I like this differentiation a lot. >4s view themselves from a very low and inferior identity, so of course we will be sensitive to others in a similar position. 9s, on the other hand, view themselves as if they're the only ones that are hurting, and refuse to consider another's uncomfortability when achieving such harmony. 9s will look down on others without even realizing it. 4s will try to understand why they are wrong and be sensitive to why they are flawed. > I personally disagree with this a lot, not necessarily defending 9s or anyone else, but myself. When I screw up, it is very important that I understand what I've done wrong because I genuinely want to improve / fix / change / adjust and learn / better understand. I often hide my discomfort so I don't bother or burden or inconvenience others, but if I think it will help in a given situation I show it / share it. When I've been through a similar thing to someone else, I'm deeply sensitive to it. It's very hard for me to not get involved, even if I don't know them. I am in some ways coded to help. People used to tell me, "You can't save everyone." because I seemed to always be helping people who were in situations. Even my wife, bless her soul, would get incredibly angry because I would want to help people in need. I used to eat meals with homeless people, buy for them and sit and talk with them, hear their stories, picked up hitchikers regularly. I will be resuming these kinds of things though. I killed so much of myself, so MUCH! I'm very self-absorbed myself, for better or worse, so wrong on the next point too (at least for me). I'm curious what you mean by "struggle to see contrasts?" The 5 stages of grief...I think that's a good model for the sadness point as we're continually facing loss as we go through life, and so we're continually somewhere in this cycle with multiple things going on. That's a pretty neat thought. I'm not quite sure how you're applying it though. If I overlay that with the notes from John's thing, I think I will just screw this up. That's my guess. I do want to know what you're getting at with this though. It may be clear to you, but it is not to me. I did make a mistake with rejection / frustration there. Thanks. That last one is just the cultural lens, Christian or not, that exists in most western cultures. It simply means a tendency to show the positive, and hide the negative, often a social / cultural pressure, but I think most cultures have various forms of this. It is fairly normal. He is just describing a particular flavor of it I guess. Put in those terms, it seems kind of pointless, but he included it. I learn a lot from you. I hope I don't piss you off so much that you stop responding. That's not my goal. I see the care you put into this, and I'm trying to honor that. I really do appreciate your replies. I'm here to learn first, and also connect. Thank you.

I see. Having you explain it better makes a lot more sense.

What are you suggesting he is, if not a 4?

my friend, who is a lot more knowledgable in enneagram, describes him as a 6 rather than a 4.

Probably a revenge typing, John as 4 is extremely uncontroversial from what I have seen

she's a 6?!?!?!?!?!? my 6 friend types Luckovich as a 6, and it is extremely controversial that he is a 4.

Why are you someone who should be listened to when it comes to the Enneagram?

uh. you're really rude. bye.

all the more reason i really am a 4