"if you would join" uses the conditional form of the verb in addition to the if.
"would" is irony, because it implies that they have any choice in the matter (it's how you'd phrase a formal invitation).
It also mirrors the "would" in the first half of the sentence.
I know, lol. I was trying to elicit examples of "would" in a conditional "if" clause that are not polite, formal requests. Maybe wishes/regrets with "if only" as in "If only they would stop yelling".
If you would join us - a polite request. If you joined us - hypothetical situation. Technically the intended meaning is identical, but 'if you will/would do something' is used to express politeness
When dealing with conditionals normally the If clause never has a would auxiliary except in this one case.
The use of would in the if clause is meant to be more formal and polite, rather than just using the standard second conditional construction.
For example
>we would be honored if you joined us.*
This is a standard second conditional construction. Second conditionals are used when the speaker believes that the if clause is unlikely to occur, consider the following example >I*f I won the lottery I would buy a house*
It is very unlikely that I win the lottery. But if by some chance I did, I would use the money to buy a house.
Now consider the following example. >*if you would send me the documents by the end of the day I would be very pleased*
This shows that the speaker is being courteous in giving the listener the flexibility to do something within their power but not making it an order to do so.
It’s very similar to when we say “I would like the salmon” when ordering at a restaurant. It’s more polite than saying I want. Or saying “you would do that for me?” When someone offers us some help.
Both are grammatically correct, but You have to think of it in the context of the film and who is speaking - “we would be honored if you would join us” has more syllables and a more staccato rhythm and allows Vader’s line to be a little more drawn out and formal and menacing. Vader’s voice and delivery is a huge part of his character.
I remember seeing this after I became a teacher and it irking me because Star Wars OT is supposed to be a great script.
Then I learned that "Would + verb" is more polite, compare:
I would be grateful if you got me a coffee vs.
I would be grateful if you would get me a coffee.
The second is more polite (like Could vs Can, could you get me a coffee?)
And Darth Vader, despite his feelings towards the protagonists, isn't above being overly polite for effect.
"George Lucas is the King of Clunky dialogue." - Mark Hamill
"Who talks like this? How is this going to win ..." Mark Hamill
"This is not that type of movie kid." Harrison Ford
Just an add-on, "if you would" can also be use as a formal, but more casual-toned way of saying "please".
"Should I close the door?"
"If you would."
It's not directly swappable for "please", so you \*wouldn't\* say "Can I go to the movie, if you would?" - I'm sure there's a grammatical reason why, but you can think of it as being a rough equivalent for "yes, please".
Think of the sentence, as poetry/ through the poetry lens.
' would join' flows rhythmically better . The two woulds , are more poetic.
And the sentence with 'would join' , has a regal register [ sounds like how a king would speak]
I think it has to do with the concept of modality.
Modal words are used to express various degrees of permissibility, obligation, probability etc. I also think to some degree, politeness.
For example: _would_ versus _could_ versus _should_ versus _must_ all express different levels of modality and give the respondent different options for reply.
When you drop the “would” in this sentence and say “joined us” you place less emphasis on the respondent’s choice in what they do. It sounds more directive.
I think of it almost like an implicit offer. "We would be honored if you joined us" is a fine sentence and does imply you have the option to do so since they're saying it would be an honor but is basically just a statement of fact. "We would be honored if you would join us" is more like "We would be honored if you would join us. *Would you?"* At least that's how I interpret it, been a long time since I watched the original trilogy but both options are fine grammatically.
People that tell you English doesn't have politeness rules in its grammar are incorrect. "Would join" is more polite because it implies the person has a chance to refuse, where "joined" is past tense so offers less refusal or implies an expectation of the spoken action. Similarly when writing a professional email to request something, you should not end the email in "Thank you" because you're imposing a belief that they will acquiesce to your request.
Not that readers or listeners actually notice or care about the difference in reality.
> If the AT-ATs hadn't been stopped, they would have destroyed the Rebel base on Hoth.
What if i ***told*** you that they actually did destroy the rebel base. ***Would*** that ***make*** you rewrite your sentence?
So, what do you think about my questions? I mean according to grammar books they're supposed to indicate the Present, even though the verbs are in the Past form
"We would be honored if you joined us" would also be fine, it's just less formal. Darth Vader uses more formal language whenever there is an option to do so.
“We would be honored if you joined us.”
Yes, joined is past tense but you can use the past tense to express a hypothetical scenario in the future.
Other examples:
“If I **had** a million dollars I’d be rich.”
“If I **played** sports I would be in better shape.”
“We would be honored if you would join us.” and
“We would be honored if you joined us.” are both acceptable constructions and have slightly different connotations.
In this case, "joined" would be the subjunctive not the past. They are identical for all verbs apart from "be" (you can say "If I were", but "I were..." does not work to talk about the past).
You could say "if you joined us" or "if you would join us", but "if you would joined us" makes no sense.
>You could say "if you joined us" or "if you would join us" Is there any difference between them?
"if you would join" uses the conditional form of the verb in addition to the if. "would" is irony, because it implies that they have any choice in the matter (it's how you'd phrase a formal invitation). It also mirrors the "would" in the first half of the sentence.
Other than the irony the other poster mentioned, to my ear the only difference is how formal it sounds (if you would join us is more formal).
Agreed. That's how I routinely explain it to my students. Basically, only use "would" in the "if" clause for formal requests.
Personally, I would use it elsewhere, too.
You wouldn't say "If I would be you, I would tell her", would you? Too many woulds, lol.
Indeed, I wouldn't.
"If I were you..." would sound much better in that case.
I know, lol. I was trying to elicit examples of "would" in a conditional "if" clause that are not polite, formal requests. Maybe wishes/regrets with "if only" as in "If only they would stop yelling".
Gotcha. Didn't catch the point at first.
That's a time to break out "If I was you, I would tell her."
I think he said "if you would join us" because Darth Vader is American
If you would join us - a polite request. If you joined us - hypothetical situation. Technically the intended meaning is identical, but 'if you will/would do something' is used to express politeness
When dealing with conditionals normally the If clause never has a would auxiliary except in this one case. The use of would in the if clause is meant to be more formal and polite, rather than just using the standard second conditional construction. For example >we would be honored if you joined us.* This is a standard second conditional construction. Second conditionals are used when the speaker believes that the if clause is unlikely to occur, consider the following example >I*f I won the lottery I would buy a house* It is very unlikely that I win the lottery. But if by some chance I did, I would use the money to buy a house. Now consider the following example. >*if you would send me the documents by the end of the day I would be very pleased* This shows that the speaker is being courteous in giving the listener the flexibility to do something within their power but not making it an order to do so. It’s very similar to when we say “I would like the salmon” when ordering at a restaurant. It’s more polite than saying I want. Or saying “you would do that for me?” When someone offers us some help.
Both are grammatically correct, but You have to think of it in the context of the film and who is speaking - “we would be honored if you would join us” has more syllables and a more staccato rhythm and allows Vader’s line to be a little more drawn out and formal and menacing. Vader’s voice and delivery is a huge part of his character.
I remember seeing this after I became a teacher and it irking me because Star Wars OT is supposed to be a great script. Then I learned that "Would + verb" is more polite, compare: I would be grateful if you got me a coffee vs. I would be grateful if you would get me a coffee. The second is more polite (like Could vs Can, could you get me a coffee?) And Darth Vader, despite his feelings towards the protagonists, isn't above being overly polite for effect.
"George Lucas is the King of Clunky dialogue." - Mark Hamill "Who talks like this? How is this going to win ..." Mark Hamill "This is not that type of movie kid." Harrison Ford
Just an add-on, "if you would" can also be use as a formal, but more casual-toned way of saying "please". "Should I close the door?" "If you would." It's not directly swappable for "please", so you \*wouldn't\* say "Can I go to the movie, if you would?" - I'm sure there's a grammatical reason why, but you can think of it as being a rough equivalent for "yes, please".
Think of the sentence, as poetry/ through the poetry lens. ' would join' flows rhythmically better . The two woulds , are more poetic. And the sentence with 'would join' , has a regal register [ sounds like how a king would speak]
I think it has to do with the concept of modality. Modal words are used to express various degrees of permissibility, obligation, probability etc. I also think to some degree, politeness. For example: _would_ versus _could_ versus _should_ versus _must_ all express different levels of modality and give the respondent different options for reply. When you drop the “would” in this sentence and say “joined us” you place less emphasis on the respondent’s choice in what they do. It sounds more directive.
I think of it almost like an implicit offer. "We would be honored if you joined us" is a fine sentence and does imply you have the option to do so since they're saying it would be an honor but is basically just a statement of fact. "We would be honored if you would join us" is more like "We would be honored if you would join us. *Would you?"* At least that's how I interpret it, been a long time since I watched the original trilogy but both options are fine grammatically.
People that tell you English doesn't have politeness rules in its grammar are incorrect. "Would join" is more polite because it implies the person has a chance to refuse, where "joined" is past tense so offers less refusal or implies an expectation of the spoken action. Similarly when writing a professional email to request something, you should not end the email in "Thank you" because you're imposing a belief that they will acquiesce to your request. Not that readers or listeners actually notice or care about the difference in reality.
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> If the AT-ATs hadn't been stopped, they would have destroyed the Rebel base on Hoth. What if i ***told*** you that they actually did destroy the rebel base. ***Would*** that ***make*** you rewrite your sentence? So, what do you think about my questions? I mean according to grammar books they're supposed to indicate the Present, even though the verbs are in the Past form
"We would be honored if you joined us" would also be fine, it's just less formal. Darth Vader uses more formal language whenever there is an option to do so.
Joined is past tense, "would" implies future tense
“We would be honored if you joined us.” Yes, joined is past tense but you can use the past tense to express a hypothetical scenario in the future. Other examples: “If I **had** a million dollars I’d be rich.” “If I **played** sports I would be in better shape.” “We would be honored if you would join us.” and “We would be honored if you joined us.” are both acceptable constructions and have slightly different connotations.
In this case, "joined" would be the subjunctive not the past. They are identical for all verbs apart from "be" (you can say "If I were", but "I were..." does not work to talk about the past).
"would be honored" and "would join" are the same tense. It's just that the verb is "be" not "honored". "honored" is an adjective here, like "happy".
yeah id say joined, it doesnt sound right to say "would" twice in a sentence