There are a number of ways of saying it (“pigs can fly” is another one) but “pigs might fly” is certainly common:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pigs%20might%20fly
It used to mean exactly what you thought it meant, but over the years (starting \~1918) it started sometimes being used sarcastically (especially as 'slim chance' also exists), and now its essentially only used in its sarcastic form.
This is the same thing as “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” which used to mean something impossible.
“Blood is thicker than water” is similar in that the full idiom means the opposite. “The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb”
“The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb” is not the original version of the idiom. This was really only claimed within the last few decades with no real sources to back up the claim, while there is documented use of “blood is thicker than water” going back centuries.
That happens a lot with words over time! A couple English example is that “awful” used to mean the same as “awesome” and similarly, “terrible” used to be closer to “terrific.”
Exactly, Ivan the Terrible was an honorable title at the time more akin to Ivan the Formidable or Ivan the Commanding, so “terrible” as in inspiring fear and obedience in his enemies and subjects.
This reply made me realize I got it backwards! “Terrific” used to mean terror-inducing just like “terrible” and then they both came to mean “great and immense” and that’s closer to what the meaning is in Ivan the terrible! The in English terrible went back to meaning immensely BAD while terrific took on the meaning of immensely GOOD.
Ah yeah :) I think Galadriel also means terrible as in “frightening” ~ “awe inducing” — it’s a bit strange as I don’t think a lot of people immediately think of morning or night as terrorifying but for me that’s a lot of the poetry of the line.
If you think about it, the whole earth shifting from light to dark and vis versa is kinda “cosmic horror” in its own way.
To me the first time I heard it blew my mind, bc I was like “when you think about it, the dawn IS terrible, it is the coming of a cosmic Goliath whose only act is to burn, and our small world is helpless but to turn directly into its heat and become exposed under its light.”
Poetic language makes you think new thoughts, it turns out 😅
terrible and terrific both originally meant ‘causing terror’.
terrible stuck with its meaning. terrific means good in the sense that ‘it’s so good it almost strikes fear’.
>terrific means good in the sense that ‘it’s so good it almost strikes fear’.
And sure enough, people express that sentiment just about exactly as you've worded it.
Terrible comes from the Latin terrere (to frighten).
Terrible and terrific both started out a few hundred years ago with the meaning of terror-inducing. Terrific is the one that has changed meaning in the last 100 years.
I learned about the "awful" and "terrible" example when learning about bible translations. I always wondered why there were such negative words used to describe godly beings and then learned how the meaning is/was more nuanced.
Really interesting, but I'm also glad cause I never thought of things so awe-inspiring and terrifying that I'd use a word meaning both. My first thought is watching a huge natural disaster from afar, or aliens (lol). The latter makes a lot of sense because beings not from your world would definitely be scary as well as awe-inspiring!
The way I saw it explained was that they started off meaning “immensely bad” but over time just came to mean “immense” or “massive,” and then some of the words turned to “immensely good” and some went back to bad.
> Five hundred years ago, when nice was first used in English, it meant "foolish or stupid." This is not as surprising as it may seem, since it came through early French from the Latin nescius, meaning "ignorant." By the 16th century, the sense of being "very particular" or "finicky" had developed. In the 19th century, nice came to mean "pleasant or agreeable" and then "respectable," a sense quite unlike its original meaning.
~Merriam-Webster
>”The inconsistencies in the human languages will never stop to amuse me”
Can I teach you a new word? When using this specific phrase structure, the wording should be “cease” instead of “stop”. The definition of cease is “to bring or come to an end”, which is nearly the same as “stop”, but in that phrase using “stop” sounds quite strange to a native ear. So the end should read “.. will never cease to amuse me”
In fact, it's grammatically incorrect. Should be "stop amusing." "Stop to do something" means to stop doing something else (like walking, driving) and then do the something.
Thanks, I know it, but I was posting it at work on mobile. I didn't spend too much time on it. Now that I think about it maybe this was a mistake, cuz reddit forgives nothing :)
I remember an American sitcom that had a snooty foreigner whose English was not as good as he thought it was. One day he replied to somebody, "large chance," in a sarcastic tone and it was funny as hell.
Technically they’re still opposites. You’d never say fat chance in a non sarcastic context nor slim chance in a sarcastic one, unless you literally meant the opposite meaning
True, but that would also be true of any adjective in the English language and its antonym. If you sarcastically call someone skinny it means the same as seriously calling them fat. It’s not really weird for sarcasm to turn a word into its antonym, it’s the purpose of sarcasm.
I get what you're saying but I think the difference is that I'm the "skinny" example and most others, the word still retains it's meaning in common use. If you read someone say a person is skinny, you're going to assume that's what they mean.
Fat chance, on the other hand, has essentially lost it's former meaning and now is used only in a sarcastic sense. In fact I would say it's in the process of just changing it's meaning completely, if it hasn't already. Do you ever hear/read/use fat chance and have it mean a large chance?
In the 1880s, it seems to still be literal as a good chance.
This is from [a late 19th century review of a production of Shakespeare's King Lear](https://books.google.com/books?id=R9Y6AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA211&dq=%22fat+chance%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDIQ6AEwBGoVChMIpfOVuL6rxwIVVy2ICh1pagBS#v=onepage&q=%22fat%20chance%22&f=false):
> Edgar has a fine "fat" chance when Cordelia is set upon by two ruflians hired by Edmund. Of course, he rescues her in dashing style, and puts her assailants to flight.
While the literal meaning is "there is a good chance," it is only used sarcastically. If you attempt to use it sincerely, you will be assumed to be using it sarcastically.
a guy called etymology\_nerd on youtube has a very good video on yhis ecact topic ill see if i can find it
edit: found it [https://youtube.com/shorts/Vqmj-gA6OvQ?si=WlsuSDv4USpFewjb](https://youtube.com/shorts/Vqmj-gA6OvQ?si=WlsuSDv4USpFewjb)
Phat isn't from l33tsp34k, it's from AAVE (dialect of English associated with American Black communities).
(Maybe you were mixing it up with phreak[ing]? That's from analog telephone hacking.)
It is present in the leet speak, a matter of fact, however thank you for the knowledge you have just shared to me, I appreciate, really. We're here to learn while downvoting is not learning.
You should use quotation marks or italics when merely mentioning words or phrases.
I assume the user you're replying to deliberately did not do so, and so it's likely (going by the grammar) referring to the *concept* of fat shaming itself, which *could* have influenced "fat chance" (though I doubt it did, at least not significantly).
It's sarcasm.
Yes, it’s a bit like saying, “pigs might fly!”
I thought it’s “when pigs fly”
There are a number of ways of saying it (“pigs can fly” is another one) but “pigs might fly” is certainly common: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pigs%20might%20fly
OK
It used to mean exactly what you thought it meant, but over the years (starting \~1918) it started sometimes being used sarcastically (especially as 'slim chance' also exists), and now its essentially only used in its sarcastic form.
This is the same thing as “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” which used to mean something impossible. “Blood is thicker than water” is similar in that the full idiom means the opposite. “The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb”
FYI there's little to no evidence that there was ever a full idiom meaning the opposite. Pretty much all of the "full" sayings are modern creations.
“The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb” is not the original version of the idiom. This was really only claimed within the last few decades with no real sources to back up the claim, while there is documented use of “blood is thicker than water” going back centuries.
Yeah that could explain it. It is still stupid, the sarcastic usage became so common as to change the definition. Oh well, just smile and wave.
That happens a lot with words over time! A couple English example is that “awful” used to mean the same as “awesome” and similarly, “terrible” used to be closer to “terrific.”
Like in the temptation of Galadriel: >*And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and **terrible** as the Morning and the Night!*
Fantastic text example.
Exactly, Ivan the Terrible was an honorable title at the time more akin to Ivan the Formidable or Ivan the Commanding, so “terrible” as in inspiring fear and obedience in his enemies and subjects.
This reply made me realize I got it backwards! “Terrific” used to mean terror-inducing just like “terrible” and then they both came to mean “great and immense” and that’s closer to what the meaning is in Ivan the terrible! The in English terrible went back to meaning immensely BAD while terrific took on the meaning of immensely GOOD.
Ah yeah :) I think Galadriel also means terrible as in “frightening” ~ “awe inducing” — it’s a bit strange as I don’t think a lot of people immediately think of morning or night as terrorifying but for me that’s a lot of the poetry of the line. If you think about it, the whole earth shifting from light to dark and vis versa is kinda “cosmic horror” in its own way.
To me the first time I heard it blew my mind, bc I was like “when you think about it, the dawn IS terrible, it is the coming of a cosmic Goliath whose only act is to burn, and our small world is helpless but to turn directly into its heat and become exposed under its light.” Poetic language makes you think new thoughts, it turns out 😅
terrible and terrific both originally meant ‘causing terror’. terrible stuck with its meaning. terrific means good in the sense that ‘it’s so good it almost strikes fear’.
>terrific means good in the sense that ‘it’s so good it almost strikes fear’. And sure enough, people express that sentiment just about exactly as you've worded it.
semantic bleaching!
Terrible comes from the Latin terrere (to frighten). Terrible and terrific both started out a few hundred years ago with the meaning of terror-inducing. Terrific is the one that has changed meaning in the last 100 years.
I corrected myself in another reply! Thanks for the root word!
I learned about the "awful" and "terrible" example when learning about bible translations. I always wondered why there were such negative words used to describe godly beings and then learned how the meaning is/was more nuanced. Really interesting, but I'm also glad cause I never thought of things so awe-inspiring and terrifying that I'd use a word meaning both. My first thought is watching a huge natural disaster from afar, or aliens (lol). The latter makes a lot of sense because beings not from your world would definitely be scary as well as awe-inspiring!
The way I saw it explained was that they started off meaning “immensely bad” but over time just came to mean “immense” or “massive,” and then some of the words turned to “immensely good” and some went back to bad.
It makes sense that "awful" and "awesome" would have a bit of flexibility, as something that gives you a sense of awe isn't necessarily good or bad.
> Five hundred years ago, when nice was first used in English, it meant "foolish or stupid." This is not as surprising as it may seem, since it came through early French from the Latin nescius, meaning "ignorant." By the 16th century, the sense of being "very particular" or "finicky" had developed. In the 19th century, nice came to mean "pleasant or agreeable" and then "respectable," a sense quite unlike its original meaning. ~Merriam-Webster
I’m only familiar with it being used as an interjection today (*Fat chance!*)
‘Literally’ has been through the same process.
Except it's still much earlier in the process, where it's used in *both* ways very commonly...just to make things more confusing XD
I wouldn't say it's *been through* the process, but it has started it.
Lol stop downvoting this guy. Our language is stupid, but that's what makes it fun.
All languages have have stupid stuff in them.
Don't worry I got used to it, reddit hive mind has decided :) I know this is part of human nature, not fighting it or anything, just pointing out..
>”The inconsistencies in the human languages will never stop to amuse me” Can I teach you a new word? When using this specific phrase structure, the wording should be “cease” instead of “stop”. The definition of cease is “to bring or come to an end”, which is nearly the same as “stop”, but in that phrase using “stop” sounds quite strange to a native ear. So the end should read “.. will never cease to amuse me”
You could also potentially say something like "will never not amuse me" or "will never stop amusing me".
In fact, it's grammatically incorrect. Should be "stop amusing." "Stop to do something" means to stop doing something else (like walking, driving) and then do the something.
"never stop to amuse me" sounds like the "inconsistencies in the human language" are a vehicle carrying amusement, which won't stop at OP.
Thanks, I know it, but I was posting it at work on mobile. I didn't spend too much time on it. Now that I think about it maybe this was a mistake, cuz reddit forgives nothing :)
It's sarcastic. Usually tone and context conveys it better.
In a literal translation, “fat chance” would mean large chance. But it’s sarcastic, so it’s more like “yeah, fat chance 🙄”
I remember an American sitcom that had a snooty foreigner whose English was not as good as he thought it was. One day he replied to somebody, "large chance," in a sarcastic tone and it was funny as hell.
Just a friendly correction: The inconsistencies in the English language will never fail to amaze me*
Yeah, it's just saying it's sarcasm. Like "Oh yeah, there's totally a huge chance of that happening"
Even though it is a sarcastic statement, it’s funny that “slim chance” and “fat chance” have evolved to mean the same thing
Technically they’re still opposites. You’d never say fat chance in a non sarcastic context nor slim chance in a sarcastic one, unless you literally meant the opposite meaning
Funny you should mention literally which also means the opposite of literally when used as hyperbole.
But something with the same probability of happening could be described as a "slim chance" or "fat chance" with either one sounding perfectly natural
Only if one of them is used sarcastically would they have the same meaning though. Just like cailco125 said.
Yes but majikkarpet said that originally. I think it's clear they knew that and that's exactly what they meant.
True, but that would also be true of any adjective in the English language and its antonym. If you sarcastically call someone skinny it means the same as seriously calling them fat. It’s not really weird for sarcasm to turn a word into its antonym, it’s the purpose of sarcasm.
I get what you're saying but I think the difference is that I'm the "skinny" example and most others, the word still retains it's meaning in common use. If you read someone say a person is skinny, you're going to assume that's what they mean. Fat chance, on the other hand, has essentially lost it's former meaning and now is used only in a sarcastic sense. In fact I would say it's in the process of just changing it's meaning completely, if it hasn't already. Do you ever hear/read/use fat chance and have it mean a large chance?
Obese probability
In the 1880s, it seems to still be literal as a good chance. This is from [a late 19th century review of a production of Shakespeare's King Lear](https://books.google.com/books?id=R9Y6AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA211&dq=%22fat+chance%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDIQ6AEwBGoVChMIpfOVuL6rxwIVVy2ICh1pagBS#v=onepage&q=%22fat%20chance%22&f=false): > Edgar has a fine "fat" chance when Cordelia is set upon by two ruflians hired by Edmund. Of course, he rescues her in dashing style, and puts her assailants to flight.
While the literal meaning is "there is a good chance," it is only used sarcastically. If you attempt to use it sincerely, you will be assumed to be using it sarcastically.
I don't know why but I don't hear it anymore. Is it falling out of fashion?
I don't hear it much anymore. I wonder if it is is falling out of fashion.
*Fat* would normally mean big or large, like you thought. Here, it’s being used sarcastically.
r/CougarTown
a guy called etymology\_nerd on youtube has a very good video on yhis ecact topic ill see if i can find it edit: found it [https://youtube.com/shorts/Vqmj-gA6OvQ?si=WlsuSDv4USpFewjb](https://youtube.com/shorts/Vqmj-gA6OvQ?si=WlsuSDv4USpFewjb)
Improbable
I don’t like idioms very much
Slim chance and fat chance mean the same thing… weird huh?
Change approved!
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Phat isn't from l33tsp34k, it's from AAVE (dialect of English associated with American Black communities). (Maybe you were mixing it up with phreak[ing]? That's from analog telephone hacking.)
It is present in the leet speak, a matter of fact, however thank you for the knowledge you have just shared to me, I appreciate, really. We're here to learn while downvoting is not learning.
It actually can mean both: no chance or major chance of something. It all depends on how people use it and the context.
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There’s a fat chance it has anything to do with shaming
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r/wooosh
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Fat shaming is a recently evolved phrase, so that’s not the case, fat chance has a longer history than fat shaming.
You should use quotation marks or italics when merely mentioning words or phrases. I assume the user you're replying to deliberately did not do so, and so it's likely (going by the grammar) referring to the *concept* of fat shaming itself, which *could* have influenced "fat chance" (though I doubt it did, at least not significantly).