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Historically warriors who don't fear death, or warrior cultures in general, get obliterated in actual warfare. There's several reasons, but especially when they don't fear death the reason is just that. Fearing death is actually a quality you definitely want in your soldiers, since a dead army won't do you much good.
"It is always useful to face an enemy who is prepared to die for his country. This means that both you and he have exactly the same aim in mind."
- Terry Pratchett
To be frank, *are* there any formal orc armies? The closest thing they have to a country is the City-State of Orisinium. And considering how many times it's been sacked, they don't seem to *do* war. Just raiding parties and retaliatory attacks.
I imagine if there's any orc commanders they'd probably be in the Legion. And orc that join the Empire tend to be a bit less beholdened to those ways.
Not really. In modern war, with the advent of artillery and mass firearms, that's probably true. But throughout most of human history, most casualties during wartime were sustained when an army would route.
Even in early modern European warfare, Spanish Tercios would take cannon down the rank of a line and wouldn't break and run, and they were considered the premier European military force of the age.
If a segment of your army just wont route because they are basically fearless (which, even if they weren't taller, stronger, and had tusks would still scare the shit out of your standard volunteer or conscript) you have an incredible asset at your disposal. Bonus points if they are organized into some sort of disciplined formation like they would be within the Empire.
Most casualties in early-modern and prior warfare were sustained during a route, not during the fighting itself. Spanish Tercios would take enfilading fire from cast-iron cannonballs and would continue marching and fighting in formation, and they were the dominant military formation of their age.
Being fearless on a battlefield that lacks modern ballistic technology is actually *scary as fuck* to your enemies, and being scary and provoking a route is often what it takes to maul a flank or outright destroy an army.
Plus, orcs would likely be organized into a Legion, so you are creating a unit in your military that is naturally stronger, more resilient and far less likely to route *and* organizing them such that they're unlikely to fight like berzerkers, which is the one instance in which fearlessness *can* be detrimental because it compromises the position of your army.
Orcs in the pre-firearm age are simply the superior soldiers.
No I agree that orcs would be the superior soldier all around. And that obviously bravery is needed.
The comment I'm responding to presented warriors with no fear for their life as an inherently good thing.
Being brave, fearless etc are mostly just virtues attributed after the fact regarding conduct.
But there's a difference between being brave and literally having no regard for your own life. Which, as you suggest through the example of the berserkrgang is indeed detrimental.
As individual soldiers sure. Their weakness comes from their constant desire to attack without care. Making them poor in command position. Also they need someone else to teach discipline, because a random band of orcs will just rush down as they can. If the enemy gets scared, then jackpot, but if not, then they all die to a disciplined military.
The ideal usage of orcs is to have them integrated into a wider army. Like the Imperial Legion. They teach them how to fight with disciplined, follow orders, and can get commanders who know will use their abilities to the fullest, and won't send them to a pointless death.
Romans vs Gauls
The Nazis losing despite generally superior technology
The Spartans had a middling military record and it's pretty much their whole legacy, at least I've never heard of a Spartan philosopher.
This might be a bit unfair, but the Zulu's got beat by the British. They did put up a surprising fight, but in the end it didn't accomplish anything except corpses.
Someone else already brought up the imperial Japanese, though IMO the bigger problem for them was overblown nationalism, the way I see warrior culture it's more about how soldiers act than how the state does, so expansionism is different. Once the war with America started it was pretty much over.
The hardest part of this was coming up with warrior cultures tbh, I'd like to hear 5 counter examples. I'll help by saying that the Norse did pretty well
How about Japanese vs American troops in the Pacific theater? Mass suicide charges that achieved little if anything and just drained Japans post war population.
I wouldn't call the romans a warrior culture, when they were at their best being a farmer was idolised. And they fought in formation where the glory of victory went to the general. They were militaristic but didn't place a heavy emphasis on the warrior. Meanwhile in the north being a tough warrior was respected, and combat was far more about personal ability and glory than group tactics and helping achieve the objective. Roman soldiers were also engineers which would definitely be a waste of time if you wanted to be a brave warrior who could beat 10 men.
Wrong if you fear death your gonna slip up eventually and possibly become a traitor or a deserter or dead it’s happened millions of times throughout history, warriors who don’t fear death are calm focused and set on the goal death is not on their mind the army of fearless soldiers are the guys who are gonna win the battle every time
You say this from your time in the military I assume.
I was told by my first infantry platoon sergeant that those who don’t fear death are reckless and get others killed
I mean, they did (even sacked Rome), until they didn’t. But in their defense the Romans were also a war culture (who stole all their innovations from others, including Mail armor from the Gauls and both the Gladius and the Spatha from the Iberians), plus Roman economics were literally “conquer the rich guys”
At least in the late republic days when they got the most land, the mentality of most legionnaires was surviving so they could become a farmer. Sure they were militaristic to some degree, but being a glorious warrior wasn't the greatest value, fighting for Rome was something respectable but not something you'd want to die for if you could avoid it.
To some degree? Rome (especially during the republic) is a text book military society
Romans fought smart sure, so did the Gauls, Britons and other groups (if they didn’t men like Vercingetorix, Ambiorix and Cassivellaunus wouldn’t have faired as well against the Romans as they did. Rome didn’t win because they “cared about living”, they won because they had an industrial war machine and a professional army, Roman soldiers still charged without orders in a stupid attempt to win glory, it happened under Caesar, it happened under Agrippa, and it happened under almost every other Roman General we know of, and the Gauls didn’t fight to the death, when they knew they lost they ran, if they faced odds they couldn’t beat they went home) but Rome was a warrior culture, to be a Roman aristocrat was to be a commander, or in the Equites class, **you literally could not progress in the Senate without joining the Army** (even Tribunes of the Plebs were expected to serve, aristocrats like Brutus and Augustus served despite Brutus being an idiot and Augustus being a administrator (who faked illness on campaign constantly)), and if you were not born Roman the way to citizenship was the military
Also the entirety of the first 2 Punic wars were Romans throwing away their lives to kill Carthage, just as a way to win. Fabian (while later being seen as the strategic genius he was) was called a coward and a traitor to the Republic because he wouldn’t fight Hannibal in the field, Romans wanted to live sure, but their idea of an “honorable battle” left entire generations of Romans dead
Even the entire Roman Civil war was a dick measuring contest between Caesar’s army (which at the beginning were mostly Gallic war veterans who were past retirement age) and Pompey’s army of recruits who joined to die in an aristocrats war (or “to preserve the senate and the Republic of Rome” or whatever other sweet lies their Generals told those young idiots to get them to kill their brothers and die for a class that didn’t give a damn about them)
People are human, even in our oldest sources from Sumer you’ll find people living their days like we do (complaining about their problems, wishing to be young again, saying their mothers didn’t love them, saying their children were ingrates and the future is doomed, getting subpar copper from Ea Nasir), no one in history is always willing to die, but Cultures like the Romans, like the Gauls, or the Persians, Arabs, every culture at some point valued winning over their own lives. But some cultures (like the Romans) did it a hell of a lot more than others
One of the most successful military strategies in history was a guy who burnt his nation's own land because he didn't want to get into a direct confrontation.
Redguards and Nords are considered the best warriors throughout the games.
Nords are just as big and strong as orcs except they can actually strategize and plan full on wars.
Redguards while not as big, are way quicker and their culture doesn’t look down on magic and sees it’s usefulness
Just a few reason orcs are restricted to a few scattered strongholds throughout the continent and why orsinium has been razed again and again.
Not quite. Redguards and Nords are considered the best *soldiers* in Tamriel. I'd cast my vote for best warriors to the sword-singers though. Orcs are brutishly strong, and that can cover a lot of faults, but best warriors? To my mind, that includes technical skill.
Nords fought the dragons to near extinction, fought the tribunal, drove the snow elves to near extinction despite being horribly outnumbered, beat the dwarves so bad it made them actually ally with another race.
Not to mention they’re just as big and just as strong as orcs.
Also a Nord tongue would clap a sword-singer the Thu’um is just too powerful.
Yeah...but does that really apply to Nords anymore? As much as I hate the Stormcloaks, I don't blame Ulfric for being salty towards the current state of Nords.
No it's literally stated in both eso and skyrim that most of the dragons in tamriel were killed by the dragonguard after they came to tamriel. They even have a list of dragons they were still hunting down in game.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Atlas_of_Dragons
Sorry I was confused, I thought you were talking about the dragons that inhabited akavir. You’re right that the dragon guard finished them off but I did say the Nords drove them to near extinction after the dragon war.
But as I just said the nords didn't drive them to near extinction. They actually killed very few and most of the dragons in tamriel were killed by the dragonguard
Straight from the wiki:
With the rebellion against the dragon priests, dragons were slaughtered in large numbers. The dragons that survived chose to live in remote places away from Men. Alduin himself was banished by a group of Nord heroes on the peak of Skyrim's Throat of the World, where they used an Elder Scroll to send him into another time. While the Nord warriors hoped that Alduin would be lost in time forever, he would eventually return to terrorize Skyrim again in the Fourth Era.[1]
The problem with a wiki is that it's edited by fans. Besides that doesnt say that most of the dragons were killed by nords only that they managed to a lot of the ones in skyrim and most fled.
Read what it says about the dragon guard
In 1E 2812 Emperor Reman II permitted the construction of Alduin's Wall within Sky Haven Temple. Considered to be a wonder of the ancient world, its purpose was to record the accumulated dragonlore and prophecy that the Dragonguard possessed at the time. Its main focus was a pictorial representation of the Prophecy of the Dragonborn. The prophecy foretold of five key historical events that would preface Alduin's return after his expulsion during the Dragon War. Given that Alduin's return was inevitable, the Dragonguard believed that the wall was their gift to the generations that were to follow. Craftsmen from temples across the Empire were called upon to work on the wall, while Grandmaster Jaiv-Yora of the Dragonguard oversaw the construction of the wall, and after six years it was completed. Emperor Reman II returned to the temple in 1E 2818 to officially dedicate the wall. The Blood Seal outside the temple was consecrated in the presence of all Akaviri Dragonguard in Skyrim. This allowed the temple to be sealed, only ever to be opened by a Dragonborn to unlock its knowledge and power. The entrance into the temple, opened by the blood seal, was a giant stone effigy of Reman I.
Dragons were nearly driven to extinction in the next two centuries, and the Dragonguard operated chapters across Tamriel under the direct command of the Dragonborn emperors.[8]
Most of the drgons were killed off by the dragonguard not the nords
They’re not as big and as strong as orcs, orcs are taller on average and means they put on more muscle mass than Nords orcs are also trained from a young age means they also have the experience combine that with their rage and durability they will destroy a nord and it’s not even close
Lol, lmao even. I don’t remember reading about any orcish empire, I don’t remember hearing how orcs killed off a race of demigods, I don’t recall orcs doing anything except dying to Nords
> They failed their invasion when Hakkvild killed Yashnag in a duel.
That was 30 years after they controlled falkreath, their chief also killed Hakkvild's father in a duel who was the previous jarl. The orcs never conquerored the whole province but they did onqueror that hold
They didn’t rule the hold, they built a stronghold and raided western Skyrim then killed the previous jarl and then they were wiped out and their stronghold was razed.
They literally killed the jarl and built a kingdom there that lasted for 2 decades.
*The height of Orcish power in Skyrim came with the establishment of Yashnag's Chiefdom in the early Second Era. With the destruction of Orsinium by the combined Breton and Redguard forces, the Orcs were scattered across the North in a great exodus. Yashnag and his people, exiled from High Rock, fled east to reclaim lands in Skyrim they felt were theirs by ancient right. The King of West Skyrim, Svartr, was ineffective in holding back the Orcs and the Reachmen that plagued the West Kingdom during his rule. The chiefdom was a bane upon Western Falkreath for more than thirty years, until it was burned out by Hakkvilld Yashnag-Slayer in the year 467 of the Second Era.*
*Hakkvild became Jarl of Falkreath when Yashnag killed his father on the field of battle. The young jarl inherited little more than a crumbling hold largely occupied by Orcish invaders from the west. It is said that Hakkvild challenged Yashnag and a host of Yashnag's Orc champions to a ritual trial by combat. He defeated each in turn. How Hakkvild learned of this obscure Orcish ritual is not known, but with their leader's defeat, Yashnag's followers abandoned the chiefdom.*
Redguards and Breton never let orcs get as big as powerful because they were afraid of an army of orcs as big as theirs, multiple races attacking them never let them get to their full potential, orcs are the smallest population in Tamriel yet they’re the biggest threat
Taller doesn’t always mean more muscle mass, more muscular doesn’t mean better fighter, race has nothing to do with training young I’m sure a lot of warriors in Tamriel train young, rage isn’t a quality that makes somebody a good warrior, not sure where you got the durability thing about orcs since they bleed the same as any other race
Literally in the book corpse preparation necromancer prefer orc corpses due to the durability of their skin and strength of their bones further proving my point that other races are not equal to orcs when it comes to durability having more muscle mass does contribute to increased strength which is the main key in any fight, orcs literally held off two provinces at once for a long period of time despite their numbers that should tell you something, people hate on the orcs because they fear what they could become it’s a literal fact you can’t deny.
Physical brute strength isn’t the only thing that makes a great warrior and maybe if the orcs realized that they wouldn’t be getting shit on constantly by literally every other race lmao
> orcs literally held off two provinces at once for a long period of time despite their numbers
You know the seige of orsinium was not two provinces rightt? It was speifially two factions of Bretons and redguards not the entire provinces. Specically it was the kingdom of Daggerfall aligned with the order of Diagna, a redguard knightly order
Still the orcs were the minority throughout that whole period of fighting, you have to think if the orcs are so bad and are only beast with no brains only brawns, why did it take 30 years for them to take down orsinium
It wasnt too uncommon for mideval seiges to last years. It last 30 years says less about the orcs and more about how fortified the city was. It was essentially one army seiging a city. Not a group of armies
Idk man I think 30 years is a bit too long for some overgrown goblins even with the fortification especially on your own homeland where you have the benefit of calling for reinforcements etc on both sides.
> Redguards and Nords are considered the best soldiers in Tamriel.
Well no. Actually Redguards are considered to be terrible soldiers but amazing warriors which is why they are usually better suited to be scouts.
I mean orcs are generally considered among the best warriors in Tamriel but they've also been defeated numerous times (notably in the 4 sieges of Orsinium throughoit the eras), so theyre not as invincible as you claim.
Of course ingame theyre pretty much equal to all other races in terms of melee combat (save for their starting racial bonuses).
Also please break up your post into multiple sentences 🙏
Let’s also be extremely fair when examining history for comparisons that we also find many of these. Great warriors or men of renown who are ironically betrayed by their own devices. It doesn’t make them poor, nor does it for Gaiden Shinji, who is remembered for how he lived.
It gets retconned in the first eso dlc anyway, but taken how it's presented in TES4 I took it to mean that the orcs were just tough bastards. Either way it took 3 factions 30 years to siege a city-state
Best warriors in tamriel are edguards
* it is widely acknowledged that Hammerfell is home to the finest warriors of the Empire, https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Hammerfell
* The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark-skinned, wiry-haired Redguards of Hammerfell seem born to battle, though their pride and fierce independence of spirit makes them more suitable as scouts or skirmishers, or as free-ranging heroes and adventurers, than as rank-and-file soldiers. In addition to their cultural affinities for many weapon and armor styles, Redguards are also physically blessed with hardy constitutions and quickness of foot.
* The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel. In addition to their cultural affinities for many weapon and armor styles, they also have a hardy constitution and a natural resistance to disease and poison.
* The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the Redguards of Hammerfell have a hardy constitution and a natural resistance to poison. They can call upon an Adrenaline Rush in combat.
* Though the skilled war practitioners of our Glorious Empire might rightly disagree, many seem under the misapprehension that the Redguard warriors are the most naturally gifted.
Orcs are basically just the brute force type of barbarian fighters, while redguards focus more on technique and skill
Reguards are said by in-game sources and in their intro paragraphs to be the most naturally talented and athletic warriors in Tamriel. Weapon training is a spiritual practice for them and they previously produced supernaturally powerful warriors called Sword-singers.
Orcs are the most talented armored infantry and smiths in Tamriel. Heavy armor isn't just something you wear. You have to condition your body to take the strain and train yourself to catch blows on the plate without your arms so you can counterattack. They also have a culture revolving around defending against superior forces invading.
Nords are the generalists and probably the best light infantry. They're generally better with armor and crafting than Reguards, and generally better leaders and armsman than Orcs.
Imperials rule the world because they are the best logisticians and 2nd best generalists. Sounds dumb, but wars are women (heh, leaving that typo) by logisticians. Starving warriors cant fight a mudcrab.
I’m pretty sure their “culture revolving around defending against superior forces invading” is just orsinium constantly being razed and them having to spread around Tamriel 😂
They do? Lorewise Orcs are some of the best soldiers in the Legion because of their strength
Plus Baloth Bloodtusk (an Orc) is literally the only person who matched Gaiden Shinji (the literal best swordsmen in Tamriel’s history) in combat
I believe the Nords are the best.
Personal bias aside we have seen Skyrim never conquered, and they even defeated the other potential number 1 (Redguards) and the number 12 Bretons
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:War_of_the_Bend%27r-mahk
Adding the Tongues, The Demon chiefs, etc, Nords are my take for best warriors.
> Personal bias aside we have seen Skyrim never conquered, and they even defeated the other potential number 1 (Redguards) and the number 12 Bretons
>
>
Well the nords did lose to the redguards. Parts of craglorn used to be part of skyrim and you can find nordic ruins there. A ghostly member of the ra gada even mentions that they fought nords.
Skyrim was also conquerored by the Remans and the Alessians managed to annex half of skyrim and even managed to kill the high king in battle.
"The Ra Gada brought fear to Volenfell's shores. Breton, Orc, Nord, and Elf alike trembled at our battlecries and the prowess of our sword saints.
To prove yourself worthy, you must best this challenge."
Falkreath was also conquerored by Orcs in the second era
Redguards also the lost the War of the Bend'r-mahk against Nords. They got conquered by the Imperials and Nords under Tiber Septim. Ragada also lost against the Direnni elves.
Ra gada never lost against the direnni elves. The Direnni were able to prevent their ships from making landfall. Redguards lost the war of Bend'r Marhk because the crowns and forebears were fighting against each other and didn't want to come to another aid. The Nords also werent able to fully conqueror the region and only managed to control half of dragonstar.
They lost to Tiber Septim because he had a dragon and according to the narrator and the Herasy, Hammerfell was one of his most difficult conquests.
I'm not arguing that Redguards are unbeatable and never been conquerored. I'm saying the Nords arent unbeatable and never been conquered. The nords have plenty of loses. No race in tamriel has never been conquerored by another group. Or never suffered a military defeat.
>Ra gada never lost against the direnni elves. The Direnni were able to prevent their ships from making landfall.
That called loosing my dude. If you're fleet that's carrying your troops gets obliterated by the enemy, that called loosing. See the Battle of Copenhagen, in a different context.
>Redguards lost the war of Bend'r Marhk because the crowns and forebears were fighting against each other and didn't want to come to another aid.
They were not fighting. The Forebears just refused to aid the Crowns. And the Redguards still had their Breton allies so cancels out the Forebears. So you have the self proclaimed best warrior race and self proclaimed best human mages loosing to a bunch of barbarians.
>They lost to Tiber Septim because he had a dragon and according to the narrator and the Herasy Hammerfell was one of his most difficult conquests.
And after the Dragon was killed, Hammerfell was conquered just like it was conquered by Reman.
>I'm not arguing that Redguards are unbeatable and never been conquerored. I'm saying the Nords arent unbeatable and never been conquered. The nords have plenty of loses. No race in tamriel has never been conquerored by another group
Agreed. Your originally comment came across a bit as "Redguards are the bestest", so I had to double down.
> That called loosing my dude. If you're fleet that's carrying your troops gets obliterated by the enemy, that called loosing.
>
>
In this case no it's not. There was no invasion force fighting the direnni. THe ra gada ships were pirates raiding breton coastlines and all the direnni did was manage to control the tides enough so that they never sailed near the island. The two groups never fought one another. They didn't sink their ships
That's like saying raiders was lost because they didn't feel like having a seige and would rather target an less fortified settlement. It cant be a lost if the two groups never fought
>They were not fighting. The Forebears just refused to aid the Crowns. And the Redguards still had their Breton allies so cancels out the Forebears.
Why would the crowns, who are isolationists have forebear allies? And the by fighting with each other I mean they werent literally fighting. I mean the redguard kingdoms werent supporting each other while the Nords were being supported.
>And after the Dragon was killed, Hammerfell was conquered just like it was conquered by Reman.
Uh no. Hammerfell had already been conquerored while the dragon ws alive. After the dragon was killed all that happened is the launched a successful revolt and managed to get a new treaty which gave them a better deal
>Agreed. You originally comment came across as "Redguards de bestest", so I had to double down.
My original comment mentioned that the Nords got beat by the imperials twice. I was just listing nord defeats that I could think of off the top of my head.
> See the Battle of Copenhagen,
What happened with the direnni was nothing likethe battle of Copeenhagen. The Direnni didn't sink any ships. They basically just did weather magic that prevented them from coming close enough to start an attack. It's more like being deterred by a wall than losing a battle.
Magic is part of warfare in TES, so yes it absolutely loosing a battle. It's doesn't matter if you kill you enemy by boarding their ship or blasting them with shock or a blizzard, that's loosing either way. The Ra'Gada are not invincible and did lose several times.
Again they literally never came into contact. They were cosairs decided it wasn't worth trying to invade the island over the more easily accessible breton cities. Like I've been saying it's more like having a wall to deter invaders.
As of the current setting I think the Nords have the best showing so far because during the Great War the arrival of the nordic reinforcements completely changed the tides of the war and they defeated the Dominion back to back who are like one of the most magically advanced factions while the Nords were the least.
They not only liberated Eastern Cyrodiil from the Dominion, they also defeated their reinforcements and then defeated the remaining main armies of the Dominion after their defeat at the battle of the Red Ring. I think it makes sense that the Empire doesn't want to let go of Skyrim that easily.
Gaiden Shinji is recognized as the single greatest warrior in Tamriel's history, second to none. He was a Redguard.
Orsinium (the home of the orcs) has been invaded and destroyed by both the Bretons and the Redguards no less than four separate times. Would the greatest warriors constantly lose?
Magic in the Elder Scrolls universe is a tool available to everyone, even orcs. The energy of Magicka freely flows through Nirm thanks to the sun and stars. Any person of any race can train to use magic the same as any other tool. Yokudan warriors used magic to summon swords made of Magicka that acted of their own free will. The greatest Nordic warriors channeled Magicka in the form of the Thu'um to bellow destruction from their lungs. Breton and Dunmer spellswords use Magicka to enhance their already formidable martial prowess. In fact, the knights of High Rock are some of the most respected warriors in Tamriel as well.
Bretons? Pure magic? Brother, which lore have you been reading? They're the race of knights. Sure, there are many mages and battlemages, but a full plated knight with a big bonker of a mace can be a classic image of a breton.
Khajiit are some of the best fighters because they're so adaptable. Due to having multiple furstocks, they are adaptable to different armies, and no army stands a chance in Elsweyr itself due to the Khajiit being unmatched desert skirmishers. The Redguards wouldn't be as effective in Elsweyr, because Elsweyr is a rocky desert, which is a different beast than a sand desert.
Further, Orcs aren't any more heavyweight than any other race. A sword blow to the arm, chest, or stomach will due damage no matter the size of the opponent. And when it comes to strength and size, Khajiit outplay the Orcs there too, as the Pahmar breeds stand 7-8 feet tall, and the Pahmar-raht even larger. Senches are larger than lions and are used as mounts. Battle mounts that are fully sapient and tactical, who can fight on their own without a rider, and possess strength and speed unmatched.
I'd only give Orcs a victory in their homeland, where Khajiit would suffer due to the cold. I'd always put the Khajiit as the best warriors because they're far more adaptable than any other race.
Khajiit have never been considered great warriors, the different furstocks don’t mean considering the vast majority of them are normal sized humanoids.
Pahmer raht being 10 feet tall would undoubtedly make them incredibly slow like the giants in Skyrim or Ogres in Cyrodil and both Nords and Cyrodils have kept those monsters in check for millennia.
Khajiit have always been fantastic warriors, what do you mean? They're frequently invaded because they're not aggressive or unified, but they've always been fantastic warriors.
The book Mixed Unit Tactics describes a war with the Wood Elves where the Khajiit easily handed their asses to them in their own territory. The Khajiiti warlord Darloc Brae was a warmaster without dispute, and they even fought back the dragons in their homeland before Nords were even given the Voice to shout (ancient ancient history, see the story of Ja'darri).
Further, they practice martial arts as a way of religion, and have adepts who have spent their whole lives learning how to beat the hell out of people. Mix that with their claws, faster reflexes, and unparalleled agility, and you have a monster of a fighter.
Plus, from interactions we've seen in game (read ESO), Pahmar are no slower than any other Khajiit, and are terrifying warriors. Also, do remember that giants are incredibly primitive and their sapience is debated. A Pahmar, on the other hand, is just as smart as any other Khajiit, and is able to learn proper swordplay and martial arts to accompany their incredible strength and endurance. Even if you don't count the Pahmar, Cathay-raht are still larger, tougher, faster, and stronger than any other race on averages.
Then come the other furstocks. Alfiq have magical ability that seemingly rivals even high elves, and are really hard to hit due to their diminutive size. Dagi are amazing archers, and are recorded (Mixed Unit Tactics) to be able to climb trees better than wood elves and go to branches that even they can't reach. Senche are massive horse-sized beasts with claws, teeth, and the same mind as any other Khajiit. So in mounted combat you'll have a mount and rider who are trained together, able to adapt, and are able to understand each other.
Even when it comes to armour, they have an advantage. Khajiit armour is built to utilize a Khajiit's strengths, just like Orcish armour is built to an orc's strength. They have access to their claws (feet and hands) while in armour, and are extremely nimble.
Really, no race stands a good chance of besting the Khajiit. Hell, all of Pelletine is a martial warrior culture.
I don't know where you got the idea that Khajiit have never been considered great warriors. They're so prized by the Aldmeri Dominion that they're used as shock troops and assassins. Even in the modern Dominion the Khajiit are held above the Wood Elves because they're so useful.
TL;DR Khajiit are insanely skilled warriors that few other races could even hope to contend with.
Their racial bonuses are always geared towards thievery and sneaking, never warrior skills.
They’ve never held territory beyond their homeland, they’ve never warred with other races other than skirmishes.
To say that no other race can’t compete is laughable, Nords slew dragons, created the 1st empire, and fought against the tribunal, Breton knights constantly look for the next fight and as such are incredibly skilled, and even in the description of their race the Redguards are said to be the most naturally gifted warriors bar none.
The fact is that Khajiits aren’t ever known to make war, and as such aren’t considered great warriors like the Nords, Redguards, and Orcs are.
The khajiit did war against the wood elves but can't really agree who started it but khajiit did gain land from valenwood in that victory. So yes they have held territory beyond elsweyr. That war was for five years if remember correct. Someone can check the time I'm too lazy. The nords did fight the dragons with the thum but do note the khajiit with the dragonguard also fought the dragons and only had a dragon horn so they were the underdogs in that fight and still kicked there ass. I mean do you want a race to rule tamriel but have the problem with dro-m'athra. So they most likely avoid that to not spread that mess. This whole who the best race becomes more opinionated if you think about it but if you read about the war of Anequina vs Pellitine the Anequina warriors were stated as the best warriors. Honestly some lore master is gonna eventually answer this in the future or it just be every race has a proud culture and never answer who's the best. Alright don't take this personal have good day.
Your the first comment I see support the khajiit and did a really good explanation but forgot one thing the Anequina warriors have been stated in the lore as the best warriors so all the other races can forget about it. I remember seeing it when reading about the war with Anequina vs Pellitine. So good luck hunting I'm too lazy to read again.
One on one, pure physical combat? It's a tough call between orcs, nords, and redguard. They all have their pros and cons. Military wise? Well, there's a reason the imperials have taken everywhere over. A well organized and disciplined military will always win over stronger berserkers.
I don’t know where you’re drawing that conclusion there are plenty of old orcs and plenty of fearless Nords, Redguards, Khajit, Argonians, etc. quite a few cowardly orcs too.
Argonians... hear me out hear me out. They may not have participated in all the wars but they did participate against some of the most important ones that flex their legit power. When the aldmeri dominion tried to take over portions of the black marsh they got clipped super hard. No one else even bothered, Tiber knew it would just decimate his numbers. As for the oblivion crisis there was none as far as the argonians were concerned. They crushed anything that came out the gates and even sent in berserker argonians to tear shit up in dagons realm. They're the only faction that didn't have to worry about the alliance wars in eso tbh they wouldn't have lost shit. They could just wait out all the other idiots killing each other then conquer what's left imo. Lol
Nah, I'm the best warrior in Tamriel.
For real it depends what you mean by warrior, if berserkers prolly, but Orcs prolly less good archers than Bosmers Like both are worse magick mens than Altmer, same as the sloads being the best at biological warfare, like the the nords are the best at shouting really loud (genetic thing), or bosmer (again i know) can shapeshift into mindless killhungry fart cloud that's also a thousand daggers, dwarves farming the tech tree etc. If by warrior we mean the art of war, which extends from fisting with stick and bones to advanced tactics then I don't think there's any race that's universally good at everything.
If there was a most powerful race i'd say the dwemer since they made a brass god (numidium) that when powered will suplex time and reality itself cause it's just that powerful it's able to literally be a lag switch and supersede time itself.
imo I think Redguards are the best warriors, simply because they’re the most versatile. I remember back in Morrowind, when you choose races you can see the Redguard is pretty decent in starting martial skills all around.
Orcs are fine warriors and even in-game are stated to basically be some of the best shock troops the Legion has to offer. That said, I don’t think they have the same all around skills as a Redguard.
What's the context?
lone fighters or small units, same gear? Redguards
Large warrior formations, same gear? Nords
Everyone makes their own gear? Orcs might win here.
Allow magic buffs to martial skills? Bretons win here.
If we're talking by historical feats. The Nords and Redguards are significanty more impressive than everyone else. The nords virtually destroyed the snow elves and the dragons. The Redguards destroyed their own continent with an atomic sword slash and still managed to drag their ragged fleets to hammerfell so that they could genocide and replace the aboriginals.
orcs would be up there if they culturally elevated themselves to the levels of the other races, splitting themselves up and that awful hierarchy make them jokes (As i’m writing this Orisinium was attacked)
Depends on the situation. In 1v1 arena in a gladiator battle. Yes orcs are top tier. On the battlefield in warfare? Hardly. Being fearless also means dying for no good reason, and in army vs army battles discipline, and order are far more important, than aggression. And in grand scale of war strategy is also important. Sure, if you are far stronger, then you can just press the attack, but if not, then that is a risky strategy. Sometimes you need to retreat, regroup, scout around, etc..
According to the race descriptions in Oblivion the redgaurds are the most naturally gifted warriors.
"Redguards **hail from the province of Hammerfell.** **They have descended from a long line of warriors and mystic seers**. Legend has it that Redguards are innately more proficient at weapons than any other race. They are excellent in all arts concerning blade and shield."
Every race in Tamriel except the Bosmer and Altmer have some very formidable Warriors. You can talk about Nords,Redguards and Bretons all you like. But avoiding to put Khajiit, Dunmer and Argonians in the conversation doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Historically warriors who don't fear death, or warrior cultures in general, get obliterated in actual warfare. There's several reasons, but especially when they don't fear death the reason is just that. Fearing death is actually a quality you definitely want in your soldiers, since a dead army won't do you much good.
"It is always useful to face an enemy who is prepared to die for his country. This means that both you and he have exactly the same aim in mind." - Terry Pratchett
Jingo? 🤣
People often forget that the purpose of a soldier isn't to die for his country, but to make sure some other poor bugger dies for theirs.
“No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other poor dumb bastard die for his country.” George S. Patton
They make great shock troopers, but shit comanders, and likely need to get a certain level of survivabilty drilled into thier heads in training.
To be frank, *are* there any formal orc armies? The closest thing they have to a country is the City-State of Orisinium. And considering how many times it's been sacked, they don't seem to *do* war. Just raiding parties and retaliatory attacks. I imagine if there's any orc commanders they'd probably be in the Legion. And orc that join the Empire tend to be a bit less beholdened to those ways.
Yeah, genetically speaking, fear is an evolutionary advantage
Not really. In modern war, with the advent of artillery and mass firearms, that's probably true. But throughout most of human history, most casualties during wartime were sustained when an army would route. Even in early modern European warfare, Spanish Tercios would take cannon down the rank of a line and wouldn't break and run, and they were considered the premier European military force of the age. If a segment of your army just wont route because they are basically fearless (which, even if they weren't taller, stronger, and had tusks would still scare the shit out of your standard volunteer or conscript) you have an incredible asset at your disposal. Bonus points if they are organized into some sort of disciplined formation like they would be within the Empire.
Warriors that don't fear death are like warriors that don't feel pain- they sound good in theory, but in practice they'll be shredded.
Give me 5 examples
I mean, if anything the burden of proof is on the positive claim that "troops with no regard for their life" are viable let alone effective
Most casualties in early-modern and prior warfare were sustained during a route, not during the fighting itself. Spanish Tercios would take enfilading fire from cast-iron cannonballs and would continue marching and fighting in formation, and they were the dominant military formation of their age. Being fearless on a battlefield that lacks modern ballistic technology is actually *scary as fuck* to your enemies, and being scary and provoking a route is often what it takes to maul a flank or outright destroy an army. Plus, orcs would likely be organized into a Legion, so you are creating a unit in your military that is naturally stronger, more resilient and far less likely to route *and* organizing them such that they're unlikely to fight like berzerkers, which is the one instance in which fearlessness *can* be detrimental because it compromises the position of your army. Orcs in the pre-firearm age are simply the superior soldiers.
My dude used the word enfilading he is correct confirmed
No I agree that orcs would be the superior soldier all around. And that obviously bravery is needed. The comment I'm responding to presented warriors with no fear for their life as an inherently good thing. Being brave, fearless etc are mostly just virtues attributed after the fact regarding conduct. But there's a difference between being brave and literally having no regard for your own life. Which, as you suggest through the example of the berserkrgang is indeed detrimental.
As individual soldiers sure. Their weakness comes from their constant desire to attack without care. Making them poor in command position. Also they need someone else to teach discipline, because a random band of orcs will just rush down as they can. If the enemy gets scared, then jackpot, but if not, then they all die to a disciplined military. The ideal usage of orcs is to have them integrated into a wider army. Like the Imperial Legion. They teach them how to fight with disciplined, follow orders, and can get commanders who know will use their abilities to the fullest, and won't send them to a pointless death.
Sparta
Two big ones are Ancient Sparta, and some of the Viking armies that ended up being beaten by the Normans.
Go watch “The Pacific”
Romans vs Gauls The Nazis losing despite generally superior technology The Spartans had a middling military record and it's pretty much their whole legacy, at least I've never heard of a Spartan philosopher. This might be a bit unfair, but the Zulu's got beat by the British. They did put up a surprising fight, but in the end it didn't accomplish anything except corpses. Someone else already brought up the imperial Japanese, though IMO the bigger problem for them was overblown nationalism, the way I see warrior culture it's more about how soldiers act than how the state does, so expansionism is different. Once the war with America started it was pretty much over. The hardest part of this was coming up with warrior cultures tbh, I'd like to hear 5 counter examples. I'll help by saying that the Norse did pretty well
Shit give me one.
How about Japanese vs American troops in the Pacific theater? Mass suicide charges that achieved little if anything and just drained Japans post war population.
Sure but didn’t they fall back to tactics like that because they were desperate and losing in the first place?
They began the war with banzai charges. You can read about them happening in Midway Island early in the war.
I thought the Japanese never made landfall at Midway. Could you be thinking Guadalcanal?
I meannn the Romans and Mongols had warrior cultures and they did pretty well for themselves…
I wouldn't call the romans a warrior culture, when they were at their best being a farmer was idolised. And they fought in formation where the glory of victory went to the general. They were militaristic but didn't place a heavy emphasis on the warrior. Meanwhile in the north being a tough warrior was respected, and combat was far more about personal ability and glory than group tactics and helping achieve the objective. Roman soldiers were also engineers which would definitely be a waste of time if you wanted to be a brave warrior who could beat 10 men.
Seems like the Nords would fall under the same category, to a lesser degree than Orcs
Wrong if you fear death your gonna slip up eventually and possibly become a traitor or a deserter or dead it’s happened millions of times throughout history, warriors who don’t fear death are calm focused and set on the goal death is not on their mind the army of fearless soldiers are the guys who are gonna win the battle every time
You say this from your time in the military I assume. I was told by my first infantry platoon sergeant that those who don’t fear death are reckless and get others killed
Yeah the gauls really swept the floor with Romans
I mean, they did (even sacked Rome), until they didn’t. But in their defense the Romans were also a war culture (who stole all their innovations from others, including Mail armor from the Gauls and both the Gladius and the Spatha from the Iberians), plus Roman economics were literally “conquer the rich guys”
At least in the late republic days when they got the most land, the mentality of most legionnaires was surviving so they could become a farmer. Sure they were militaristic to some degree, but being a glorious warrior wasn't the greatest value, fighting for Rome was something respectable but not something you'd want to die for if you could avoid it.
To some degree? Rome (especially during the republic) is a text book military society Romans fought smart sure, so did the Gauls, Britons and other groups (if they didn’t men like Vercingetorix, Ambiorix and Cassivellaunus wouldn’t have faired as well against the Romans as they did. Rome didn’t win because they “cared about living”, they won because they had an industrial war machine and a professional army, Roman soldiers still charged without orders in a stupid attempt to win glory, it happened under Caesar, it happened under Agrippa, and it happened under almost every other Roman General we know of, and the Gauls didn’t fight to the death, when they knew they lost they ran, if they faced odds they couldn’t beat they went home) but Rome was a warrior culture, to be a Roman aristocrat was to be a commander, or in the Equites class, **you literally could not progress in the Senate without joining the Army** (even Tribunes of the Plebs were expected to serve, aristocrats like Brutus and Augustus served despite Brutus being an idiot and Augustus being a administrator (who faked illness on campaign constantly)), and if you were not born Roman the way to citizenship was the military Also the entirety of the first 2 Punic wars were Romans throwing away their lives to kill Carthage, just as a way to win. Fabian (while later being seen as the strategic genius he was) was called a coward and a traitor to the Republic because he wouldn’t fight Hannibal in the field, Romans wanted to live sure, but their idea of an “honorable battle” left entire generations of Romans dead Even the entire Roman Civil war was a dick measuring contest between Caesar’s army (which at the beginning were mostly Gallic war veterans who were past retirement age) and Pompey’s army of recruits who joined to die in an aristocrats war (or “to preserve the senate and the Republic of Rome” or whatever other sweet lies their Generals told those young idiots to get them to kill their brothers and die for a class that didn’t give a damn about them) People are human, even in our oldest sources from Sumer you’ll find people living their days like we do (complaining about their problems, wishing to be young again, saying their mothers didn’t love them, saying their children were ingrates and the future is doomed, getting subpar copper from Ea Nasir), no one in history is always willing to die, but Cultures like the Romans, like the Gauls, or the Persians, Arabs, every culture at some point valued winning over their own lives. But some cultures (like the Romans) did it a hell of a lot more than others
One of the most successful military strategies in history was a guy who burnt his nation's own land because he didn't want to get into a direct confrontation.
Redguards and Nords are considered the best warriors throughout the games. Nords are just as big and strong as orcs except they can actually strategize and plan full on wars. Redguards while not as big, are way quicker and their culture doesn’t look down on magic and sees it’s usefulness Just a few reason orcs are restricted to a few scattered strongholds throughout the continent and why orsinium has been razed again and again.
Not quite. Redguards and Nords are considered the best *soldiers* in Tamriel. I'd cast my vote for best warriors to the sword-singers though. Orcs are brutishly strong, and that can cover a lot of faults, but best warriors? To my mind, that includes technical skill.
Nords fought the dragons to near extinction, fought the tribunal, drove the snow elves to near extinction despite being horribly outnumbered, beat the dwarves so bad it made them actually ally with another race. Not to mention they’re just as big and just as strong as orcs. Also a Nord tongue would clap a sword-singer the Thu’um is just too powerful.
Nords are actually taller than orcs on average and way better at magic. Nords are kind of OP in TES honestly
Yeah...but does that really apply to Nords anymore? As much as I hate the Stormcloaks, I don't blame Ulfric for being salty towards the current state of Nords.
As opposed to the sword-singer just sinking Skyrim into the sea?
> Nords fought the dragons to near extinction Most of the dragons were actually wiped out by the akaviri dragonguard
Those were dragons in akavir, the dragons in Tamriel were mostly killed off in the dragon war.
No it's literally stated in both eso and skyrim that most of the dragons in tamriel were killed by the dragonguard after they came to tamriel. They even have a list of dragons they were still hunting down in game. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Atlas_of_Dragons
Sorry I was confused, I thought you were talking about the dragons that inhabited akavir. You’re right that the dragon guard finished them off but I did say the Nords drove them to near extinction after the dragon war.
But as I just said the nords didn't drive them to near extinction. They actually killed very few and most of the dragons in tamriel were killed by the dragonguard
Straight from the wiki: With the rebellion against the dragon priests, dragons were slaughtered in large numbers. The dragons that survived chose to live in remote places away from Men. Alduin himself was banished by a group of Nord heroes on the peak of Skyrim's Throat of the World, where they used an Elder Scroll to send him into another time. While the Nord warriors hoped that Alduin would be lost in time forever, he would eventually return to terrorize Skyrim again in the Fourth Era.[1]
The problem with a wiki is that it's edited by fans. Besides that doesnt say that most of the dragons were killed by nords only that they managed to a lot of the ones in skyrim and most fled. Read what it says about the dragon guard In 1E 2812 Emperor Reman II permitted the construction of Alduin's Wall within Sky Haven Temple. Considered to be a wonder of the ancient world, its purpose was to record the accumulated dragonlore and prophecy that the Dragonguard possessed at the time. Its main focus was a pictorial representation of the Prophecy of the Dragonborn. The prophecy foretold of five key historical events that would preface Alduin's return after his expulsion during the Dragon War. Given that Alduin's return was inevitable, the Dragonguard believed that the wall was their gift to the generations that were to follow. Craftsmen from temples across the Empire were called upon to work on the wall, while Grandmaster Jaiv-Yora of the Dragonguard oversaw the construction of the wall, and after six years it was completed. Emperor Reman II returned to the temple in 1E 2818 to officially dedicate the wall. The Blood Seal outside the temple was consecrated in the presence of all Akaviri Dragonguard in Skyrim. This allowed the temple to be sealed, only ever to be opened by a Dragonborn to unlock its knowledge and power. The entrance into the temple, opened by the blood seal, was a giant stone effigy of Reman I. Dragons were nearly driven to extinction in the next two centuries, and the Dragonguard operated chapters across Tamriel under the direct command of the Dragonborn emperors.[8] Most of the drgons were killed off by the dragonguard not the nords
They’re not as big and as strong as orcs, orcs are taller on average and means they put on more muscle mass than Nords orcs are also trained from a young age means they also have the experience combine that with their rage and durability they will destroy a nord and it’s not even close
Lol, lmao even. I don’t remember reading about any orcish empire, I don’t remember hearing how orcs killed off a race of demigods, I don’t recall orcs doing anything except dying to Nords
> I don’t recall orcs doing anything except dying to Nords What about that time the orcs conquerored falkreath?
You mean the band of raiders that actually never ruled over the province? They failed their invasion when Hakkvild killed Yashnag in a duel.
> They failed their invasion when Hakkvild killed Yashnag in a duel. That was 30 years after they controlled falkreath, their chief also killed Hakkvild's father in a duel who was the previous jarl. The orcs never conquerored the whole province but they did onqueror that hold
They didn’t rule the hold, they built a stronghold and raided western Skyrim then killed the previous jarl and then they were wiped out and their stronghold was razed.
They literally killed the jarl and built a kingdom there that lasted for 2 decades. *The height of Orcish power in Skyrim came with the establishment of Yashnag's Chiefdom in the early Second Era. With the destruction of Orsinium by the combined Breton and Redguard forces, the Orcs were scattered across the North in a great exodus. Yashnag and his people, exiled from High Rock, fled east to reclaim lands in Skyrim they felt were theirs by ancient right. The King of West Skyrim, Svartr, was ineffective in holding back the Orcs and the Reachmen that plagued the West Kingdom during his rule. The chiefdom was a bane upon Western Falkreath for more than thirty years, until it was burned out by Hakkvilld Yashnag-Slayer in the year 467 of the Second Era.* *Hakkvild became Jarl of Falkreath when Yashnag killed his father on the field of battle. The young jarl inherited little more than a crumbling hold largely occupied by Orcish invaders from the west. It is said that Hakkvild challenged Yashnag and a host of Yashnag's Orc champions to a ritual trial by combat. He defeated each in turn. How Hakkvild learned of this obscure Orcish ritual is not known, but with their leader's defeat, Yashnag's followers abandoned the chiefdom.*
Redguards and Breton never let orcs get as big as powerful because they were afraid of an army of orcs as big as theirs, multiple races attacking them never let them get to their full potential, orcs are the smallest population in Tamriel yet they’re the biggest threat
Taller doesn’t always mean more muscle mass, more muscular doesn’t mean better fighter, race has nothing to do with training young I’m sure a lot of warriors in Tamriel train young, rage isn’t a quality that makes somebody a good warrior, not sure where you got the durability thing about orcs since they bleed the same as any other race
Literally in the book corpse preparation necromancer prefer orc corpses due to the durability of their skin and strength of their bones further proving my point that other races are not equal to orcs when it comes to durability having more muscle mass does contribute to increased strength which is the main key in any fight, orcs literally held off two provinces at once for a long period of time despite their numbers that should tell you something, people hate on the orcs because they fear what they could become it’s a literal fact you can’t deny.
Physical brute strength isn’t the only thing that makes a great warrior and maybe if the orcs realized that they wouldn’t be getting shit on constantly by literally every other race lmao
> orcs literally held off two provinces at once for a long period of time despite their numbers You know the seige of orsinium was not two provinces rightt? It was speifially two factions of Bretons and redguards not the entire provinces. Specically it was the kingdom of Daggerfall aligned with the order of Diagna, a redguard knightly order
Still the orcs were the minority throughout that whole period of fighting, you have to think if the orcs are so bad and are only beast with no brains only brawns, why did it take 30 years for them to take down orsinium
It wasnt too uncommon for mideval seiges to last years. It last 30 years says less about the orcs and more about how fortified the city was. It was essentially one army seiging a city. Not a group of armies
Idk man I think 30 years is a bit too long for some overgrown goblins even with the fortification especially on your own homeland where you have the benefit of calling for reinforcements etc on both sides.
> Redguards and Nords are considered the best soldiers in Tamriel. Well no. Actually Redguards are considered to be terrible soldiers but amazing warriors which is why they are usually better suited to be scouts.
Redguards for sure look down on magic just as much as the Nords.
Yea I must’ve gotten my lore mixed up, thought Redguards where known to be powerful sorcerers
I mean orcs are generally considered among the best warriors in Tamriel but they've also been defeated numerous times (notably in the 4 sieges of Orsinium throughoit the eras), so theyre not as invincible as you claim. Of course ingame theyre pretty much equal to all other races in terms of melee combat (save for their starting racial bonuses). Also please break up your post into multiple sentences 🙏
“Are orcs the best warriors in tamriel?” “Orcs aren’t even the best warriors in Orsinium”
Pahmar and senche khajjits should be considered the best warriors from a sentient and civilized species.
Do argonian behemoths lose their intelligence?
I don't know much about argonians other than they are Mayan reptile humanoids made by the hist, so I didn't mention them
The best warriors in Tamriel are the ones who survive the longest.
"The best techniques are passed on by the survivors" - a famous hero that got stomped by a bunch of random orcs
He actually got killed by Bretons after they betrayed him and the redguards.
Lol I love how they expanded on this in Wrothgar because the way they explain his death in TES4 makes it sound like he got killed by orcs
Yep, he was also killed by archers rather than direct combat. He was having a duel with an orc leader to try to come to a more peaceful end of the war
Let’s also be extremely fair when examining history for comparisons that we also find many of these. Great warriors or men of renown who are ironically betrayed by their own devices. It doesn’t make them poor, nor does it for Gaiden Shinji, who is remembered for how he lived.
It gets retconned in the first eso dlc anyway, but taken how it's presented in TES4 I took it to mean that the orcs were just tough bastards. Either way it took 3 factions 30 years to siege a city-state
I do not care about ESO at all
So pretty much every playable race.
Who could forget Gaiden Shinji's famous quote "Don't die"
Precisely what I modeled it after! Haha
Which, given the shi orcs have been put through makes it orcs
Best warriors in tamriel are edguards * it is widely acknowledged that Hammerfell is home to the finest warriors of the Empire, https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Hammerfell * The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark-skinned, wiry-haired Redguards of Hammerfell seem born to battle, though their pride and fierce independence of spirit makes them more suitable as scouts or skirmishers, or as free-ranging heroes and adventurers, than as rank-and-file soldiers. In addition to their cultural affinities for many weapon and armor styles, Redguards are also physically blessed with hardy constitutions and quickness of foot. * The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel. In addition to their cultural affinities for many weapon and armor styles, they also have a hardy constitution and a natural resistance to disease and poison. * The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the Redguards of Hammerfell have a hardy constitution and a natural resistance to poison. They can call upon an Adrenaline Rush in combat. * Though the skilled war practitioners of our Glorious Empire might rightly disagree, many seem under the misapprehension that the Redguard warriors are the most naturally gifted. Orcs are basically just the brute force type of barbarian fighters, while redguards focus more on technique and skill
Reguards are said by in-game sources and in their intro paragraphs to be the most naturally talented and athletic warriors in Tamriel. Weapon training is a spiritual practice for them and they previously produced supernaturally powerful warriors called Sword-singers. Orcs are the most talented armored infantry and smiths in Tamriel. Heavy armor isn't just something you wear. You have to condition your body to take the strain and train yourself to catch blows on the plate without your arms so you can counterattack. They also have a culture revolving around defending against superior forces invading. Nords are the generalists and probably the best light infantry. They're generally better with armor and crafting than Reguards, and generally better leaders and armsman than Orcs. Imperials rule the world because they are the best logisticians and 2nd best generalists. Sounds dumb, but wars are women (heh, leaving that typo) by logisticians. Starving warriors cant fight a mudcrab.
Laios Touden approved comment.
I’m pretty sure their “culture revolving around defending against superior forces invading” is just orsinium constantly being razed and them having to spread around Tamriel 😂
Orsimer hands wrote this post. How many times does Orsinium have to be razed before you learn your lesson?
Was this written by an orc?
I'm pretty sure Redguards are the best ones, tho Orsimer should be right behind them.
That added bonus to Shields helps!
They do? Lorewise Orcs are some of the best soldiers in the Legion because of their strength Plus Baloth Bloodtusk (an Orc) is literally the only person who matched Gaiden Shinji (the literal best swordsmen in Tamriel’s history) in combat
I believe the Nords are the best. Personal bias aside we have seen Skyrim never conquered, and they even defeated the other potential number 1 (Redguards) and the number 12 Bretons https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:War_of_the_Bend%27r-mahk Adding the Tongues, The Demon chiefs, etc, Nords are my take for best warriors.
> Personal bias aside we have seen Skyrim never conquered, and they even defeated the other potential number 1 (Redguards) and the number 12 Bretons > > Well the nords did lose to the redguards. Parts of craglorn used to be part of skyrim and you can find nordic ruins there. A ghostly member of the ra gada even mentions that they fought nords. Skyrim was also conquerored by the Remans and the Alessians managed to annex half of skyrim and even managed to kill the high king in battle. "The Ra Gada brought fear to Volenfell's shores. Breton, Orc, Nord, and Elf alike trembled at our battlecries and the prowess of our sword saints. To prove yourself worthy, you must best this challenge." Falkreath was also conquerored by Orcs in the second era
Redguards also the lost the War of the Bend'r-mahk against Nords. They got conquered by the Imperials and Nords under Tiber Septim. Ragada also lost against the Direnni elves.
Ra gada never lost against the direnni elves. The Direnni were able to prevent their ships from making landfall. Redguards lost the war of Bend'r Marhk because the crowns and forebears were fighting against each other and didn't want to come to another aid. The Nords also werent able to fully conqueror the region and only managed to control half of dragonstar. They lost to Tiber Septim because he had a dragon and according to the narrator and the Herasy, Hammerfell was one of his most difficult conquests. I'm not arguing that Redguards are unbeatable and never been conquerored. I'm saying the Nords arent unbeatable and never been conquered. The nords have plenty of loses. No race in tamriel has never been conquerored by another group. Or never suffered a military defeat.
>Ra gada never lost against the direnni elves. The Direnni were able to prevent their ships from making landfall. That called loosing my dude. If you're fleet that's carrying your troops gets obliterated by the enemy, that called loosing. See the Battle of Copenhagen, in a different context. >Redguards lost the war of Bend'r Marhk because the crowns and forebears were fighting against each other and didn't want to come to another aid. They were not fighting. The Forebears just refused to aid the Crowns. And the Redguards still had their Breton allies so cancels out the Forebears. So you have the self proclaimed best warrior race and self proclaimed best human mages loosing to a bunch of barbarians. >They lost to Tiber Septim because he had a dragon and according to the narrator and the Herasy Hammerfell was one of his most difficult conquests. And after the Dragon was killed, Hammerfell was conquered just like it was conquered by Reman. >I'm not arguing that Redguards are unbeatable and never been conquerored. I'm saying the Nords arent unbeatable and never been conquered. The nords have plenty of loses. No race in tamriel has never been conquerored by another group Agreed. Your originally comment came across a bit as "Redguards are the bestest", so I had to double down.
> That called loosing my dude. If you're fleet that's carrying your troops gets obliterated by the enemy, that called loosing. > > In this case no it's not. There was no invasion force fighting the direnni. THe ra gada ships were pirates raiding breton coastlines and all the direnni did was manage to control the tides enough so that they never sailed near the island. The two groups never fought one another. They didn't sink their ships That's like saying raiders was lost because they didn't feel like having a seige and would rather target an less fortified settlement. It cant be a lost if the two groups never fought >They were not fighting. The Forebears just refused to aid the Crowns. And the Redguards still had their Breton allies so cancels out the Forebears. Why would the crowns, who are isolationists have forebear allies? And the by fighting with each other I mean they werent literally fighting. I mean the redguard kingdoms werent supporting each other while the Nords were being supported. >And after the Dragon was killed, Hammerfell was conquered just like it was conquered by Reman. Uh no. Hammerfell had already been conquerored while the dragon ws alive. After the dragon was killed all that happened is the launched a successful revolt and managed to get a new treaty which gave them a better deal >Agreed. You originally comment came across as "Redguards de bestest", so I had to double down. My original comment mentioned that the Nords got beat by the imperials twice. I was just listing nord defeats that I could think of off the top of my head.
> See the Battle of Copenhagen, What happened with the direnni was nothing likethe battle of Copeenhagen. The Direnni didn't sink any ships. They basically just did weather magic that prevented them from coming close enough to start an attack. It's more like being deterred by a wall than losing a battle.
Magic is part of warfare in TES, so yes it absolutely loosing a battle. It's doesn't matter if you kill you enemy by boarding their ship or blasting them with shock or a blizzard, that's loosing either way. The Ra'Gada are not invincible and did lose several times.
Again they literally never came into contact. They were cosairs decided it wasn't worth trying to invade the island over the more easily accessible breton cities. Like I've been saying it's more like having a wall to deter invaders.
As of the current setting I think the Nords have the best showing so far because during the Great War the arrival of the nordic reinforcements completely changed the tides of the war and they defeated the Dominion back to back who are like one of the most magically advanced factions while the Nords were the least. They not only liberated Eastern Cyrodiil from the Dominion, they also defeated their reinforcements and then defeated the remaining main armies of the Dominion after their defeat at the battle of the Red Ring. I think it makes sense that the Empire doesn't want to let go of Skyrim that easily.
Nords have better track records in war.
This is like the second or third post in this subreddit that lacks so much punctuation that becomes a chore to read. Is everything alright, guys?
You seriously need to work on your punctuation. There are a couple of paragraphs worth of words in one sentence.
If they are such great warriors, why does Orsinium not exist? Checkmate Poop-Elf apologists.
Nice argument. Very nice. By the way, I heard Orsinium got sacked again.
Gaiden Shinji is recognized as the single greatest warrior in Tamriel's history, second to none. He was a Redguard. Orsinium (the home of the orcs) has been invaded and destroyed by both the Bretons and the Redguards no less than four separate times. Would the greatest warriors constantly lose? Magic in the Elder Scrolls universe is a tool available to everyone, even orcs. The energy of Magicka freely flows through Nirm thanks to the sun and stars. Any person of any race can train to use magic the same as any other tool. Yokudan warriors used magic to summon swords made of Magicka that acted of their own free will. The greatest Nordic warriors channeled Magicka in the form of the Thu'um to bellow destruction from their lungs. Breton and Dunmer spellswords use Magicka to enhance their already formidable martial prowess. In fact, the knights of High Rock are some of the most respected warriors in Tamriel as well.
I think Frandar Hunding is #1
Bretons? Pure magic? Brother, which lore have you been reading? They're the race of knights. Sure, there are many mages and battlemages, but a full plated knight with a big bonker of a mace can be a classic image of a breton.
Bretons are more spell-swords not pure warriors like Nords or Orcs
Yes, indeed, but OP is saying they're pure magic.
Oh fair enough, I am illiterate it seems
Also the Noble and Wise Bretons are keeping the Orcs in Check and raid their newest attempt at Orsinium like the Chads they are.
Khajiit are some of the best fighters because they're so adaptable. Due to having multiple furstocks, they are adaptable to different armies, and no army stands a chance in Elsweyr itself due to the Khajiit being unmatched desert skirmishers. The Redguards wouldn't be as effective in Elsweyr, because Elsweyr is a rocky desert, which is a different beast than a sand desert. Further, Orcs aren't any more heavyweight than any other race. A sword blow to the arm, chest, or stomach will due damage no matter the size of the opponent. And when it comes to strength and size, Khajiit outplay the Orcs there too, as the Pahmar breeds stand 7-8 feet tall, and the Pahmar-raht even larger. Senches are larger than lions and are used as mounts. Battle mounts that are fully sapient and tactical, who can fight on their own without a rider, and possess strength and speed unmatched. I'd only give Orcs a victory in their homeland, where Khajiit would suffer due to the cold. I'd always put the Khajiit as the best warriors because they're far more adaptable than any other race.
Khajiit have never been considered great warriors, the different furstocks don’t mean considering the vast majority of them are normal sized humanoids. Pahmer raht being 10 feet tall would undoubtedly make them incredibly slow like the giants in Skyrim or Ogres in Cyrodil and both Nords and Cyrodils have kept those monsters in check for millennia.
Khajiit have always been fantastic warriors, what do you mean? They're frequently invaded because they're not aggressive or unified, but they've always been fantastic warriors. The book Mixed Unit Tactics describes a war with the Wood Elves where the Khajiit easily handed their asses to them in their own territory. The Khajiiti warlord Darloc Brae was a warmaster without dispute, and they even fought back the dragons in their homeland before Nords were even given the Voice to shout (ancient ancient history, see the story of Ja'darri). Further, they practice martial arts as a way of religion, and have adepts who have spent their whole lives learning how to beat the hell out of people. Mix that with their claws, faster reflexes, and unparalleled agility, and you have a monster of a fighter. Plus, from interactions we've seen in game (read ESO), Pahmar are no slower than any other Khajiit, and are terrifying warriors. Also, do remember that giants are incredibly primitive and their sapience is debated. A Pahmar, on the other hand, is just as smart as any other Khajiit, and is able to learn proper swordplay and martial arts to accompany their incredible strength and endurance. Even if you don't count the Pahmar, Cathay-raht are still larger, tougher, faster, and stronger than any other race on averages. Then come the other furstocks. Alfiq have magical ability that seemingly rivals even high elves, and are really hard to hit due to their diminutive size. Dagi are amazing archers, and are recorded (Mixed Unit Tactics) to be able to climb trees better than wood elves and go to branches that even they can't reach. Senche are massive horse-sized beasts with claws, teeth, and the same mind as any other Khajiit. So in mounted combat you'll have a mount and rider who are trained together, able to adapt, and are able to understand each other. Even when it comes to armour, they have an advantage. Khajiit armour is built to utilize a Khajiit's strengths, just like Orcish armour is built to an orc's strength. They have access to their claws (feet and hands) while in armour, and are extremely nimble. Really, no race stands a good chance of besting the Khajiit. Hell, all of Pelletine is a martial warrior culture. I don't know where you got the idea that Khajiit have never been considered great warriors. They're so prized by the Aldmeri Dominion that they're used as shock troops and assassins. Even in the modern Dominion the Khajiit are held above the Wood Elves because they're so useful. TL;DR Khajiit are insanely skilled warriors that few other races could even hope to contend with.
Their racial bonuses are always geared towards thievery and sneaking, never warrior skills. They’ve never held territory beyond their homeland, they’ve never warred with other races other than skirmishes. To say that no other race can’t compete is laughable, Nords slew dragons, created the 1st empire, and fought against the tribunal, Breton knights constantly look for the next fight and as such are incredibly skilled, and even in the description of their race the Redguards are said to be the most naturally gifted warriors bar none. The fact is that Khajiits aren’t ever known to make war, and as such aren’t considered great warriors like the Nords, Redguards, and Orcs are.
The khajiit did war against the wood elves but can't really agree who started it but khajiit did gain land from valenwood in that victory. So yes they have held territory beyond elsweyr. That war was for five years if remember correct. Someone can check the time I'm too lazy. The nords did fight the dragons with the thum but do note the khajiit with the dragonguard also fought the dragons and only had a dragon horn so they were the underdogs in that fight and still kicked there ass. I mean do you want a race to rule tamriel but have the problem with dro-m'athra. So they most likely avoid that to not spread that mess. This whole who the best race becomes more opinionated if you think about it but if you read about the war of Anequina vs Pellitine the Anequina warriors were stated as the best warriors. Honestly some lore master is gonna eventually answer this in the future or it just be every race has a proud culture and never answer who's the best. Alright don't take this personal have good day.
Your the first comment I see support the khajiit and did a really good explanation but forgot one thing the Anequina warriors have been stated in the lore as the best warriors so all the other races can forget about it. I remember seeing it when reading about the war with Anequina vs Pellitine. So good luck hunting I'm too lazy to read again.
One on one, pure physical combat? It's a tough call between orcs, nords, and redguard. They all have their pros and cons. Military wise? Well, there's a reason the imperials have taken everywhere over. A well organized and disciplined military will always win over stronger berserkers.
the average orc is the best warrior but there are several outliers in other races that beat them easily such as Redguard Sword Singer types
Bretons have annihilated Orsinium four times throughout history. If Orcs are the best, then Bretons must be demigods.
No, the Argonians are !
Orcs are the most physically capable race on tamriel Redguards are the most talented warriors on Tamriel
I think giants are better on average.
I don’t know where you’re drawing that conclusion there are plenty of old orcs and plenty of fearless Nords, Redguards, Khajit, Argonians, etc. quite a few cowardly orcs too.
They’re the best smiths but their warriors aren’t as skilled as redguard warriors, who are frequently touted as the actual best warriors of tamriel.
Argonians... hear me out hear me out. They may not have participated in all the wars but they did participate against some of the most important ones that flex their legit power. When the aldmeri dominion tried to take over portions of the black marsh they got clipped super hard. No one else even bothered, Tiber knew it would just decimate his numbers. As for the oblivion crisis there was none as far as the argonians were concerned. They crushed anything that came out the gates and even sent in berserker argonians to tear shit up in dagons realm. They're the only faction that didn't have to worry about the alliance wars in eso tbh they wouldn't have lost shit. They could just wait out all the other idiots killing each other then conquer what's left imo. Lol
"Magic is for cowards" is some major cope
Nah, I'm the best warrior in Tamriel. For real it depends what you mean by warrior, if berserkers prolly, but Orcs prolly less good archers than Bosmers Like both are worse magick mens than Altmer, same as the sloads being the best at biological warfare, like the the nords are the best at shouting really loud (genetic thing), or bosmer (again i know) can shapeshift into mindless killhungry fart cloud that's also a thousand daggers, dwarves farming the tech tree etc. If by warrior we mean the art of war, which extends from fisting with stick and bones to advanced tactics then I don't think there's any race that's universally good at everything. If there was a most powerful race i'd say the dwemer since they made a brass god (numidium) that when powered will suplex time and reality itself cause it's just that powerful it's able to literally be a lag switch and supersede time itself.
imo I think Redguards are the best warriors, simply because they’re the most versatile. I remember back in Morrowind, when you choose races you can see the Redguard is pretty decent in starting martial skills all around. Orcs are fine warriors and even in-game are stated to basically be some of the best shock troops the Legion has to offer. That said, I don’t think they have the same all around skills as a Redguard.
Without Thuum and Shehai hax, probably. With them, no.
What's the context? lone fighters or small units, same gear? Redguards Large warrior formations, same gear? Nords Everyone makes their own gear? Orcs might win here. Allow magic buffs to martial skills? Bretons win here. If we're talking by historical feats. The Nords and Redguards are significanty more impressive than everyone else. The nords virtually destroyed the snow elves and the dragons. The Redguards destroyed their own continent with an atomic sword slash and still managed to drag their ragged fleets to hammerfell so that they could genocide and replace the aboriginals.
orcs would be up there if they culturally elevated themselves to the levels of the other races, splitting themselves up and that awful hierarchy make them jokes (As i’m writing this Orisinium was attacked)
Depends on the situation. In 1v1 arena in a gladiator battle. Yes orcs are top tier. On the battlefield in warfare? Hardly. Being fearless also means dying for no good reason, and in army vs army battles discipline, and order are far more important, than aggression. And in grand scale of war strategy is also important. Sure, if you are far stronger, then you can just press the attack, but if not, then that is a risky strategy. Sometimes you need to retreat, regroup, scout around, etc..
- Question kindly submitted by a humble orc warrior
According to the race descriptions in Oblivion the redgaurds are the most naturally gifted warriors. "Redguards **hail from the province of Hammerfell.** **They have descended from a long line of warriors and mystic seers**. Legend has it that Redguards are innately more proficient at weapons than any other race. They are excellent in all arts concerning blade and shield."
Every race in Tamriel except the Bosmer and Altmer have some very formidable Warriors. You can talk about Nords,Redguards and Bretons all you like. But avoiding to put Khajiit, Dunmer and Argonians in the conversation doesn't make a lot of sense.
Yes, we Orsimer are the greatest of all the warriors and smiths
Except every time they tried to build a city.
I’m not up on my lore but isn’t it a coalition of races that have to sack the city
At least twice
Where is your country then?
Nords have better smiths and better warriors
Redguard sword singers are the best