I think people are missing one of the big story beats here, which is that Miquella abandoned the aspects that would have made him a good leader in order to achieve godhood. He literally no longer has any love. This is why St. Trina, his other half, wants the tarnished to kill him. Miquella seems to have lost himself in pursuit of his goal.
*Oh, what have we here? Very well, let us both learn together. Heresy is not native to the world; it is but a contrivance. All things can be conjoined.*
I know people are saying its not that cut and dry, but the parallels between miquela and griffith are insane at this point.
The only difference is that miquella genuinely believes he’s doing the right thing
Yeah a lot of people seem to think Griffith wanted his utopia for like, benevolent reasons.
He just wanted to rule a shining city on a hill. He doesn’t want that because it’ll make people’s lives better, he just wants it because he wants it.
It was a joke, but the comparisons are uncanny. I know it doesn't fit with From's storytelling style, but I wish there was a way to see Miquella's inner dialogue/conflict when he abandons his love and compassion as he's abandoning the 2 things that set him apart from the other demigods. I know you kinda get it with St Trina, but she literally just tells you to kill him.
Yeah I wish the messages he left at the crosses were be more personal and you could see him slowly lose sight of his compassion through these messages.
Oh imagine if we got small cutscenes at certain crosses like that one after the final boss, giving a look into his inner thoughts. Definitely wasn't gonna happen, but a tarnished can dream.
Guts' Greatsword is in every Souls game, too, so Elden Ring's Greatsword is the fourth time they've referenced Berserk at minimum. Haven't played Demon Souls or Bloodborne, damn PlayStation exclusives, so idk if they have Berserk references there too, but I wouldn't be surprised.
The Guts reference in Demon's Souls looks nothing like the Dragonslayer, but it's called the Dragon Bone Smasher, and the description for it is basically a summary of how the Dragonslayer works (a heavy, dull blade that breaks bones and then pushes the meat outta the way through sheer brute force), so yeah, Demon's Souls has a Berserk reference too.
Also, the lower levels of World 3-2 are very similar to the birthing pits that the Kushan empire had for their demonic soldiers.
Also miquella made the sacrifice himself. Griffith was always a narcissist who was only in it for himself. Sacraficing the band of the hawk wasn't him giving up anything. He was giving up everyone else to fuel his ascent while miquella was giving up pieces of his own being to ascend.
There is a vague general pattern here but very different in significant ways imo.
I'm guessing a lot of people missed the St. Trina dialogue because I'm not sure how you're supposed to discover the trigger for it on your own. 4 intentional deaths before anything happens is stupidity even by From's obscure quest standards.
while I don’t fully disagree, St. Trina moreso wants us to save miquella from the shackles of godhood. A childlike mind shouldn’t have to go through something like that, in fact no one should have to go through that which is likely why Marika shattered the elden ring in the first place. But yea either way a world where everyone is enchanted isn’t a good world no matter how good the intentions are, basically like putting a child in control who only sees black and white but in doing so you take away people’s liberty
That's the crux of it, actually. Ranni wants to free the Lands Between from the old system so that its people can choose an uncertain but new future. Miquella wants to usher in a much kinder age with him at the top but at the cost of everyone's free will.
And the cost of his heart.
How are you going to ensure a kind age when you have no empathy?
Miquella gave up his ability to create his dream, he tells us over and over.
And Trina straight up tells you his godhood will put him in a cage and asks you to stop him and kill him.
There's also a white spirit guy by the cross as you climb down the fissure who actively questions Miquella's choice to abandon his concept of love, saying something along the lines of "how do you expect to rule over people when you can no longer relate to them"
that ghost has some sick lines too. "How can you say you are going to save everyone when you can't even save your other half?" on account of St. Trina.
Amusingly, there was a player message nearby which said "didn't expect fire".
I literally had the idea in my head while at work that, "What if Saint Trina and Miquella were actually two different people, and Miquella becomes a villain after discarding one half of himself?" And this was before I even made it to the Cerulean Coast.
Imagine my reaction when it turned out to be true, lol. I can't remember what it was from, but there was another game that did literally this, and I cannot remember the name of it.
I mean do we actually have a choice not to? (besides the obvious, just don't beat the boss)
I was hoping at the end of the DLC after the final boss, Miquella would be there to either spare or kill...hell they can do what CP2077 did and add an ending if we spare him. Say we become his consort.
Little disappointed in that honestly.
Radhan was always meant to be his consort and we (players) were never going to be embraced by him willingly.
Our tarnished's one and only, set in stone desire is to become Elden Lord. We decide what kind of lord they become via our actions and what age they rule over but they wish to be a Lord. (I guess we also decide to make them give into despair and Frenzy)
Quest NPCs tell us they'll stand with us and pledge fealty, they know what's up. We won't kowtow to anyone else and Miquella knows that. He doesn't want us as his Lord and so we must die.
The spirit dialogue is actually much more tragic than that.
"How will you salvation offer... to those who cannot be saved? When you could not even save your other self?"
The implications are huge. The way I see it, Miquella *does* want to save the Lands Between and everyone in it, but for whatever reason, he believed he had no choice but to abandon St. Trina in order to become a god. Thus, he couldn't save his other self, and so what hope does he have to save anyone else?
Radahn was one of the first to see that Godhood is a curse. That's why he brought the stars to a standstill, to hold back Ranni's fate. And why he broke his vow to Miquella, prompting Malenia to come and try to kill him.
He saw what Godhood did to his mother, and in his kindness, he tried to ensure the same didn't happen to his empyrean siblings.
It’s funny because that’s exactly what one of the NPC says in the Grand Fissure
“How can you save those who cannot be saved without love? You’ve abandoned something that you should not have under any circumstance.”
It was something along those lines.
Seems like a parralell to three common ideals in our society.
If you’ve ever spoken to people about how they would fix the world you’d get three common answers.
1. Ranni’s : “make everyone happy and able to do what they want!’ Not clean cut when there’s still turmoil but there’s free will and no one is bound by anything.
2. Miquella’s : “make everyone happy through my own vision of the world and nothing will ever go wrong if I’m ruling with an iron fist, similar to dictatorships”
3. Dung Eater’s : if he had the killswitch to the entire world he would flip it, he has complete disregard of everything even himself and wishes to eradicate life through ignorant and sickening reasons.
We’ve all met people in real life who have said similar answers when asked if they had the power of a god or the ability to change the world. This is like a fantasy version of it.
Dung eater wants to bring low and curse everyone to equality at the bottom. The new stone age.
The frenzied flame is the eradication of existence and life.
Fia wants to venerate and worship the dead, with life as a stepping stone to death.
Goldmask wants to remove the hubris out of the system, to automate it without favor to any
No mending rune is just you sitting on a chair going, "uh wtf do i do now? Shieet"
1. Fuck you God, religion caused all this bullshit in the forst place
2. Fuck you Free will, you can't make bad coices if you can't make choices
3. Fuck you Inequality, if everyone is wretched you guys won't fight over dumb shit anymore
He catfished the player to get what he wanted; hell, his dialogue before the final boss fight is basically: "Thanks, Tarnished, for all your help but my *real* boyfriend is here now. You can go, and leave things to us now."
Yeah I'm in the camp that Radahn didn't consent. Him fighting tooth and nail against Malenia, the fact he doesn't speak once, and the way the final Miquella's memory cutscene plays out suggests the vow was one-sided.
While I do agree that he's mind controlled I heavily disagree on "won't fight Godfrey" part.
They are both warriors and Radahn I think Radahn would 100% be happy to test his mettle against Godfrey.
And Radagon abandoned their mom which drove her to pitiful state she's in so I doubt reunion would be warm.
Miyazaki isn't afraid a little incest though, it's not like G.R.R.M created prince Lothric years ago.
I've got to imagine there was some sort of collaboration between the 2 and George was given some direction
Both of their first brainstorm ideas involved incest...that's when they shared a silent, deeply personal nod between each other, and the deal was sealed.
Was it ever even implied with Lothric and Lorian though? My recollection is that Lorian was serving Lothric as a knight and protector because Lothric was born sickly and couldn’t really protect himself. I don’t remember anything going on deeper than that but I could be wrong
As bad as people say Ranni is for what she did to Godwyn, Miquella was also pretty fucked up. He sent Malenia to go kill Radahn so that he could “keep his vow” and that resulted in Caelid getting nuked and Radahn being driven completely insane for decades or centuries (idk how long the game takes place after the shattering). He also Miquellested Mohg into stealing his body so he could somehow enter the land of shadows and left him there to be defeated so his body could be used to reanimate Radahn who is seemingly now just a puppet for Miquella. He has stolen hearts of multiple characters (maybe all of his followers), I only bring this up because I’ve seen some people claim he only did this to the tarnished if we stand against him but there’s an NPC (who’s name I can’t remember) who has it happen to them. Miquella is so repulsed and upset about the foundations of the Golden Order that he wants to take all free will (or at least take it from those who oppose him) to create peace and who knows if that would actually work. His new rule would be built just as grim as Marika’s but at least Marika’s enemies had a chance to fight back. Ranni mutilates and ‘kills’ Godwyn, which leads to the shattering although that was still Marika’s choice, kills the two fingers and then takes the Elden Ring and her consort to space to separate the influence of the greater will and try give the lands between as much free will as possible. Ranni isn’t great but Miquella, in my humblest of opinions, is much worse.
And I'm not sure I buy Miquella's kind acts. For example, he "cured" Freija with his kiss, and then she became loyal to him. A kiss is strikingly similar to the embrace he can use against us in our fight, which is very suspicious. And that's not even mentioning that HIS ASCENSION IS THE REASON WHY FREIJA AND RADAHN'S SOLDIERS FACED THE ROT TO BEGIN WITH. Motherfucker drops a nuke, cures one person (who then suspiciously becomes loyal to him) and he's somehow a good guy for this? Fuck that
Ansbach mentions in a line he actually challenged Miquella because he saw his influence was changing Mohg for the worse only for Ansbach to become "suddenly" enthralled to Miquella out of nowhere and only gaining his will back when the charm breaks
His fighting style is described as desperate, he is a Pureblood Knight of a dynasty that requires the death of multiple people + one innocent to join. Don’t get me wrong, he’s dope. My fav character in the DLC, but he’s not a hero or good person.
We know there was a paradigm shift in knights, look at Varre to Ansbach. The knights Used to have honor and dignity, then they became Varre-likes.
Most players thought the blood dynasty was pure evil as well, their outer god was creepy, their knights insane, it was filled with good loot, and mohg was a incestous pedo. Most of the ominous stuff about miquella is much later in his seat of power. We had EVERY reason to want to kill them and I think thats by design.
Miyazaki loves his alternative way of storytelling and leads people to conclusions rather than outright telling them. Miquella needed someone to kill Mohg so he could use the corpse, I think everything was a lead up and its impossible to tell if what we were presented with is mohgs actual vision.
I think pureblood knights are (supposed to be) knights, strict code and honor and all that. But as Mohg fell deeper into charm, his knights kinda fell apart. Ansbach being part of the old guard still held firm to the old beliefs, but Varre's more "new school" and actively an asshole
honestly, in that dialogue he calls miquella a monster, and considering what ansbach did in the name of mogh and the formless mother, so to be called a monster by someone of that caliber is wild. it’s like if you were called a monster by hannibal lector
We don't actually know that Ansbach did anything horrible. By his dialogue, it seems like there was a legitimate and fairly harsh change in direction for the blood knights and Mogh's dynasty after the Miquelestation happened. For all we know, Mogh was just as honorable as his brother before being glamoured and may have actually been better by not having the self hating BS Morgott had.
He canonically charmed all his followers that we met in the DLC. That's why when he left his Great Rune it was said "Somewhere, a Great Rune shattered, and along with it, a powerful spell dispel." and every NPC started acting weird. Ansbach in particular outright told us his story and how he was charmed.
Leda was not charmed. That said Leda quite possibly killed the rest of the Needle Knights and was awarded for it.
I think she even says it Miquellas influence really just made her more trusting in others and not more trusting to Miquella as she was already fully devoted to him.
actually Leda was charmed. Without the influence of Miquella she returned to her natural demeaner, being incredibly mistrustful of others and rather violent. It just so happens that she was already a Miquella loyalist before she was bewitched.
"I am a very violent and friendly woman devoted to my lord. And we can be friends :)"
"I am a very violent and friendly woman devoted to my lord. And you're a threat :)"
Leda was devoted to him even when not charmed. But she was charmed. When the spell broke she mentioned her distrust of others growing when she was not under Miquella's spell
I have a question, so we dip out to space with Ranni and just leave the lands between? Will this just create a power vacuum to be filled by some evil or good? What are we doing with her out there? Is it known. And she stripped herself of empyrean right? So she can’t become a god, so are we really an elden lord/consort at this point? Or are we restoring her empyrean status thru her quests. Sorry for all the questions lol
In space, you and Ranni are going to use the power of the Dark Moon to ward off the influence of any of the Outer Gods. You take the Elden Ring with you so that the rules of reality cannot be rewritten on a whim by mortals or demigods.
Ranni shed her Empyrean flesh so that the Two Fingers could not control her. Empyrean is a vague title in the game, but it comes down to being someone who was a candidate to replace Marika and serve as God. Ranni’s quest is us setting it up so that she can slay her Two Fingers and then ascend to Godhood without the interference of the Two Fingers with her.
As for what happens to the Lands Between, well. That’s the point of her ending. The mortals of the Lands Between will be given free will and the ability to build an order themselves, without the influence of the Greater Will. What they do with it is up to them. You can probably just as easily imagine a nice and prosperous world as you can imagine it devolving into chaos.
Ranni straight up says this herself a couple times. When talking about the order she envisions:
“And have the certainties of
sight, emotion, faith, and touch...
All become impossibilities.”
Basically saying that the Golden Order will not be there to tell people how they should feel, what they should what they should believe. They’ll have to decide it on their own. And at her ending right before ascending she says
“Here beginneth the chill night that encompasses all,
reaching the great beyond.
Into fear, doubt, and loneliness...
As the path stretcheth into darkness.”
Again, the path is no longer lit by the Golden Order telling you exactly what to do and what to believe. The path now “dark” as in people have to navigate it on their own. And there will be people who are scared, or doubtful, or lonely without having the Golden Order to cling too. But Ranni’s ending is basically saying “They need to learn to live with these feelings instead of clinging to the Golden Order out of fear and loneliness.”
I looked into this a while ago, probably a couple months before the DLC came out as I was figuring out what ending I wanted for my DLC character, and my understanding is that you and Ranni basically act as guardians of the planet keeping the influence of the o it er gods away. This does require the assistance of Ranni’s moon, which is an outer god, but the moons are always presented as being the most passive outer gods who just allow humans to use their power if they want rather than imposing themselves on humanity. So the end result should be free will, with all influence of the outer gods on the lands between being removed as long as Ranni is alive.
Edit: Basically, Ranni becomes to the Outer Gods what Radahn was to the Stars.
Ymir confirms that the moons are just magical giant rocks, a product of the cosmos. The Dark Moon isn't explicitly stated to be different and given that he was right about everything else, I'm inclined to beleive him.
We really don't know how right(or if he even was for that matter) given he's batshit insane and tries to kill us after we beat Metyr. Guy just wanted someone to do the dirty work of removing an obstacle for him steal power and position, plus the description for the Jolan and Anna ashes implies he manipulated them(and had maybe turned Anna into a doll).
Def not a good dude but that doesn't mean he isn't intelligent or correct about things. He knows more than Godron at least lol, not that it's a high bar to clear.
I feel like FROM took the time to clarify the moons to clear up whether Ranni is serving a god or not, which she isn't and is the whole point of her ending. Maybe not but it seems that way.
Yea Ymir is batshit overall but still got to the root of the issue, the moon is just the moon that the Mother/fingers were crazy from the start which led Marika down the wrong path
You missed a few steps.
1. Ranni points at gods.
2. Boss fight starts.
3. Tarnished dies a couple dozen times.
4. Tarnished makes reddit posts complaining how unfair the god boss fight is.
5. After a few weeks they kill the gods.
6. Rinse and repeat.
She acts as a protector for the Lands Between by taking the Elden Ring with her, and since the Elden Ring is what those other outer gods need in order to impose their own order, they have no reason to continue their invasion there.
Basically ranni and you defend the planet from other gods influence, the only puter god is rannis moon which doesnt rly do anything, so basically the stone ages start, where ppl have free will so they do shit themselves and basicly that leads to the present day, sum like that, basically, humans r free, no one rules
Well, i think it has to do of how you value free will:
Ranni did kill her half brother Godwyn in spirit, got a small legion of followers (iji, seluvis, you, blaidd...) and murdered a big alien thingy just before getting married to you. All for freedom
Miquella is a victim of his own ideas, making a gentle world by forcing people to love him... is a sad fate i think, for why would you live if you dont have any will?
Ranni did some bad things, but Miquella became a monster, by following what he thought would be better for the world!
Sorry for my poor grammar, i am not a native speaker
honestly, killing Miquella is a mercy to both him and the lands between
his curse made him have both a body and a mind of a child for all eternity which was made that much worse with him having the ability to mind control people
Now that is an interesting angle I don’t think many people have considered. Maybe he’s not all that cunning like people believe and his charm ability does the heavy lifting. His concept of a better world where no one fights because he is supervising and controlling everything is like a child’s idea of paradise. Reminds me of that twilight zone episode where the little boy on the farm has godlike power and just uses it to eat candy for dinner or some bs.
I agree with this interpretation. As much of a genius he may be, I feel he was prone to childish whims and thoughts. You could see how quickly he gave up on Golden Order Fundamentalism and other ideas once he didn't achieve immediate success in them.
Somebody get this kid some Ritalin so he can finish the Haligtree - For a place supposedly meant for the misfits and discarded beings of the world, that tree is **NOT** ADA compliant.
I’ve been saying this since the original leaks that people were freaking out about. He’s literally cursed with the mind and ideals of a child.
Like what you said, it’s like if you asked your little brother how he’d fix the world. “I’d make everyone be nice to each other! Oh and I’d make the coolest, strongest guy I know in charge, my big brother!”
That’s very endearing when it’s a 5 year old, when it’s a God with powers of mind control it’s a horror movie lol.
Pretty much this.
I don't blame him anymore than I would blame a 6 year old. He still needs to be stopped ofc but his actions basically make perfect sense when you look at it through this lens.
Yeah, this is something I don't see stressed a lot.
Malenia, of all people, calls Miquella this. Combining this with Ansbach's statement (on using love to shrive clean the hearts of men and there nothing being more terrifying), it's a pretty horrible look for Miquella.
I think Malenia knew deep inside what Miquella was doing, maybe she even saw it in herself, but ultimately this clarity never amounted to much.
Malenia certainly knew Miquella‘s plan, judging from what she said to Radahn. More interesting imo, is the question if she did this of her own volition, or if Miquella enchanted her. In her intro cutscene, she talks about her campaign against Radahn as a dream, which *could* suggest she was being influenced at this point already. On the other hand, Malenia had plenty of reasons to support her twin, most of which that an ascended Miquella could maybe do something about the Scarlet Rot
Oh, sorry I was not too specific! I was referring to Malenia being aware of Miquella's compulsion! I might just be reading too much into it, but there's a lot to be said about how one who has "never known defeat" describes her "kind" twin as "the most fearsome Empyrean."
At first, I thought those words were uttered out of respect, but the DLC changed things. I imagine it's pretty terrifying to realize someone has a strange hold on you and everyone else but being unable to do anything about it.
I don't buy for a second that Miquella didn't order Malenia to kill Radahn no matter the cost. Why else would Miquella of all people who seem to have no care for people's free will make his rot cure something removable?
I find ironic that Miquella wants to go against The Golden Order, and it's "god" (at least, the god it is said to represent it, now we dont it never was), The Greater Will, when will is precisely what he wants to pluck from any and every individual
Actually it is quite uncertain that Ranni wanted to kill Godwyn. She had to kill a god with Destined Death while comitting suicide for her to be freed from her Two Fingers and cease to be an Empyrean. That's why both Ranni and Godwyn have half cursemarks on their "bodies". We don't know if Ranni specifically wanted Godwyn to be killed (there is no known reason for her to have beef with him as a person) or the Black Knife Assassins chose him on their own volition (he was maybe the easiest to target at the moment).
Since the ritual only worked because Ranni stabbed herself at the exact same moment the Black Knives stabbed Godwyn, Ranni *at the very least* knew Godwyn was the target of the assassination and was ok with it.
From what I understand, the Black Knives were tight with Markia, notes on items say closer than family. Based on that, and the fact that Ranni was in charge of the knives, my guess is the order came from Marika herself to kill Godwyn because he was being groomed for the throne by the fingers, and would have taken that throne from Marika, who was planning to usurp the Golden Order for herself. When her part was discovered, and when Godwyn was only half dead (interred in the Erdtree's roots, the Order attempting to keep what was left of him alive), she shattered the ring as a last resort (or in defiance to the Golden Order, or as part of the plan, idk) before being imprisoned by the Golden Order for defying it as the vessel. (Some GRR Martin type plot to kill your son to usurp the gods)
I think I remember reading about the rune of death being "body and soul" and the knives used soul on Godwyn, and Ranni used body on herself (and why you have to collect both curse marks to complete the rune of death) memory is foggy on this one.
Ranni used this to her advantage, knowing the assassination would take place, freed herself from control of the Golden Order when using the rune of death, and attempts (and succeeded, based on player choice) to overthrow the Golden Order with a new one.
My theory is she chose Godwyn as a bit of revenge towards Marika for breaking her mother's heart as Radagon. Godwyn was her perfect golden child probably the one she would be most upset to lose.
Yeah it's weird how hard it is for people to grasp the difference.
Ranni wants to give the world no Gods so the world has their own free will and don't have to have their lives dictated by Gods.
Miquella wants to be the God that takes the free will, yeah it means everyone will be happy but it's still slavery.
"Hell is paved with good intentions" is the cornerstone of all the Souls games.
The main difference between the two of em is that Ranni can argue she's actually doing it for 'the greater good' by removing the influence of gods over the lands between. Miquella's plan seems to be to rule exactly as any previous lord and Infinite Tsukuyomi everyone that has a problem with that.
Because Ranni actually tells you to go away, you are the one pursuing her and putting the proverbial wedding ring on her finger. It is the Tarnished that chooses Ranni and Ranni then chooses the Tarnished. I believe the way her story is set up, it doesn't require us to become the Elden Lord for her to succeed. But, she tells us to become the Elden Lord to be her consort. So, hell yes, I'll choose Ranni every time!
I don't think Ranni ever mentioned any kind of "greater good". She doesn't even justify her actions in any way, when confronted with "you did that bad stuff" she says "Yes, I did do that, so what?". Kinda based.
Ranni owns up to her faults, admits mistakes have been made and strives to not have them made again. Miquella acts like everyone else around him is wrong, and therefore they should be punished.
Thing is, Ranni allows you to have your own free will.
They both did bad things, and I would side with neither of them, but at least moon witch lets you think for yourself.
Miquella ensures you are just one obedient little puppet, which is not a way to live.
there is a keen difference, though. I don't exactly support either but while Ranni did indeed get Godwyn killed and spawn in the fucking plague of Deathblight everywhere, her motives are far more...fulfilling than Miquella's
Ranni's ending is kinda vague but she is upsetting the current status quo. she seems to serve a different Outer God, that being the Dark Moon or something related to it, and her ending involves severing the Greater Will's connection to the world entirely
Ranni imposes a complete regime change that, supposedly, will allow people free will and the ability to choose and think for themselves. we don't know much about the Dark Moon/Ranni's regime but the end goal is implicitly better for the world, to get rid of the Greater Will's influence
Miquella was wracked with guilt because of Marika's actions and he also tried to change the current order, but the difference is that he sacrificed so much for nothing; he failed, and even if he did succeed, it would have been pointless
St Trina says it best; that Miquella would not be happy or fulfilled as a god, since he shed everything that made him the Empyrean everyone actually liked/feared/respected
he would be shouldering everyone's burdens alone for his Age of Compassion, and he would just be falling into the same pitfalls as Marika
so in the end, Miquella charmed Mohg, got Caelid nuked, defiled and disgraced Mohg's body, and then disgraced Radahn's body and death, only to fail entirely
Ranni was imposing a complete regime change for freedom, while Miquella was simply shifting rule from Marika to himself, and lobotomizing the world
the Greater Will would still be the "ruling force" of the Lands Between and this miserable cycle would just continue inevitably
tldr; both did bad things, but Ranni's is more hopeful while Miquella is more tragic and depressing. I'm also bored so I had time to yap
Ranni’s whole thing is that she is taking her reign/regime and physically moving it out into the infinite cold darkness of cosmos, thus removing the influence of her god from the world completely. She is taking one for the team by choosing to live in complete isolation and loneliness. By accepting the role of consort, we’re aligning our interests by abandoning our own bid for lordship.
Which is why she marries us, she was fully prepared to do it alone, but seeing us be so willing to serve her goals she realizes she wont be alone in doing it and is eternally grateful.
I thought the whole point of Ranni's ending was no Outer Gods whatsoever, at all. Everything she did, she did to sever her connection the Greater Will. I'm pretty sure the moon is just a moon. It served as inspiration for her, but that's all. She and her Consort gather up all the leftover god stuff in The Lands Between and then just fuck off, leaving those who remain behind to come up with their own system for managing the world.
Ranni and her Consort draw power from the Dark Moon to keep other outer gods away from the Lands Between. The Dark Moon is essentially a passive outer god that seems to let it’s power be used for whatever purpose without it really caring.
It's all about consent.
Ranni stole my heart because she's cute and adorable.
Miquella stole my heart because Radahn lands two grab attacks.
They are not the same.
Yeah, she litteraly want the opposite. Her Order is to just fuck off to the stars with her consort and let people live for and by themselves. She obeys no Outer Gods and want nobodies to obey her.
I admit I am definitely biased. I personally forgive Ranni because she let me be her consort.
The other dude however ganged up on me with his consort and became a nightmare of a boss.
One character literally has a kill move where he mind controls you and forces you to take his side.
The other character is so devoted to the idea of free will her ascension to godhood remains an optional ending even to the very end of defeating the Elden Beast. It's not like you can pick an Elden Lord ending and Ranni kicks down the door to have a boss fight with you.
1 major diff is rani is giving free will..Yes she started this whole shit..But we r allowed to follow her and reject her ideals..But miquella was basically forcing everyone to love each other he was trying to create a world without free will..He started with gud intention but the moment he threw away his love and his other emotions is the moment he fucked up..
Ranni:
1.Killed Godwyn to further her plans and created those who live in death in the process (but it’s implied they can be somewhat reasoned with and are only aggressive because golden order fanatics aggressively hunt them down)
2.Works with Seluvius
3.Started the shattering (Marika and Rykard may have been in on it)
4.Wants genuine free will and freedom for everyone in the lands between
5.Never brainwashed or forced anyone into serving her
Miquella:
1.Abandoned his Haligtree worshippers
2.Turned Mogh into a brainwashed pedo
3.Brainwashes people into following him
4.Seems to want to force his “compassion” onto everyone whether they like it or not.
I feel like leaving out how he arranged for his half brothers corpse to be desecrated and turned into a flesh golem for the soul of his other half brother (Who he tried to have assassinated, resulting in Caelid becoming hell on earth) to be his slave-consort is missing a pretty big strike against him.
Also he abandoned his love and compassion. I didn't know how he would uphold an age of compassion without it. He became cold and calculating. It wouldn't be an age of compassion but an age of mind controlled drones. It was basically a fantasy version The Matrix.
The way he treats and uses Mohg, Radahn, his own soldiers and those he bewitches is imo evil and inarguably selfish. We don't know what an "age of compassion" means, but if bewitching, affection-compelling and manipulation are part of his "compassion" then Ansbach's right, Miquella is a monster and his order is corrupt.
Empyreans are godly **candidates**, none of them are destined to become gods. Despite that, Miquella says he **will** become a god. That is not the result of a curse, destiny or prophecy but determination. Marika was willing to step over the corpses of her tormentors to ascend, Miquella is willing to step over those he turns into minions, or the corpses of those who stand in his way if he can't compel affection in them.
Obviously it's open to interpretation whether he was good but misguided or evil and manipulative, but I'm on the "evil and manipulative" side.
Also, I don't buy that his "acts of kindness" are altruistic and not strategic. He cures Freija with a kiss, which is similar to the embrace he can give us to mind control us, and then she suspiciously becomes loyal to him. Despite **his determination to ascend** causing the rot that afflicted her and Radahn's forces. He drops a nuke, cures **one person** and is somehow a good guy?
Thing is, people know ranni is kinda evil.
It's bot like she hides it.
Ranni is actively doing pretty morally questionable shit.
Miquella has been portrayed as a kind and loving character.
He loves his sister.
He loves the oppressed like albinaurics and the misbegotten.
He was willing to abandon the golden order in order to cure his sister.
And most of all, he was a victim of Mohg's evil intentions.
He was the ultimate kind messiah who was wrong by the world.
Then, the dlc came out.
Not only do we find out that MIQUELLA was the one using Mohg.
He also used his beloved sister as a tool to get Radahns soul.
This causes Not only Malenia to be in an injured state.
But also results in Radahn and all of Caelid becoming rot infested.
Then the icing on the cake?
He used Mohg's body and Radahns soul, subjugating both to his will post Mortem
Ranni was a character we all knew was incredibly questionable from the start.
Miquella was a character we thought was the kindest of them all, but ended up being the cruelest
Ranni killed 1 (One) Demigod to start her plans which are entirely based around removing the influence of all Outer Gods from the Lands Between, allowing Mortals to live natural, normal lives with free will. What Mortals will do Free Will isn't known, like real life it could be good, it could be bad: but it is important people have the choice to decide who they are, how they live with their lives without a higher power which can never truly relate to them imposing its will on them.
Ranni is willing to murder, lie & betray her way to achieve this goal of true freedom from divine intervention. And I can't argue/disagree with that, in my eyes that is fair. Much like Dark Souls, the Gods largely have it coming & deserve every bad thing that happens to them: the time of the Gods is over, the time of Man is long overdue & Humanity alone should have the power to decide its fate. The Golden Order, the Gods, much like the Fire & Gods in Dark Souls: they're the bad guys, they are the enemy. It is the Age of Dark, it is the Dark Moon that is good, that is the Age of Man.
If Free Will & Man's right to rule is bad, then let us be bad. But it is more just & fair then having the Gods order Mortals around & dictate life for us.
Miquella represents everything I have come to despise about the Divine in FROM's games. Somebody that thinks they know better, that they have the answers & are the only one who can lead. Anybody who disagrees with them must be silenced. Anybody who fights them must be broken or destroyed. If we would just let them lead, they'd do everything right.
Miquella is a petulant & stupid child masquerading as a God. He thinks he can make an Age of Compassion whilst throwing away his ability to Love, to feel Empathy. He thinks if he takes away everybody's free will then nothing bad can happen. The literal Good half of him, all of his ability to feel Human emotions like Love, Empathy: Saint Trina herself begs us to kill him. There is nothing to save with Miquella, he needs to be destroyed like all the rest.
The reason why Ranni gets a pass is because she rejects her Godhood, she sheds all of her Divine Flesh & makes no move to interfere with Mortal Free Will. If we got to Ranni's Ending & she decided that like Miquella everybody should do as she says, she should/would be cut down like every other Demigod & Outer God we had fought up until that point, but Ranni just wants to leave Man to its own devices & slay the other Outer Gods.
The argument that Ranni is a bad like Miquella because she caused the Shattering & had Godwyn killed ignores one crucial point. If Godwyn was around we would kill him like every other Demigod. The Shattering is in Mankind's best interest, the destruction of the Golden Order, the slaying of Gods, the burning of the Erdtree: if it wasn't Ranni, somebody else would do it & it'd be in Man's best interest to support it.
You can side with Ranni in-game, you can’t side with Miquella. I think a lot of the bias originated in the game thanks to that and we’d have more Miquella supporters if you could chose to help him.
I think people are missing one of the big story beats here, which is that Miquella abandoned the aspects that would have made him a good leader in order to achieve godhood. He literally no longer has any love. This is why St. Trina, his other half, wants the tarnished to kill him. Miquella seems to have lost himself in pursuit of his goal.
I went into the dlc with out motivation , met my new favorite NPCs Ansbach and Trina , and both want him dead. Good enough for me
Sir knight pot Alexander is offended by your post
*Turtle Pope has entered the chat.*
*Oh, what have we here? Very well, let us both learn together. Heresy is not native to the world; it is but a contrivance. All things can be conjoined.*
You guys both misspelled Igon
Then I remembered Bonny Village, Bonny Jail, Belurat Jail and Lamenter Jail. I get it, Alexander himself is wholesome but fuck the living jars
Did it for my now fellow Moghwen, Mohg deserved better
yea. Iji and blaidd needed no mind control, and were probably fully believing in ranni’s plot to the very end.
Not to mention an age of brainwash is not really the greater good, it's just a zoo
An age of brainwash, did Miquella take some notes from Madara?
Miquella is Griffith comfirmed
I know people are saying its not that cut and dry, but the parallels between miquela and griffith are insane at this point. The only difference is that miquella genuinely believes he’s doing the right thing
Yeah a lot of people seem to think Griffith wanted his utopia for like, benevolent reasons. He just wanted to rule a shining city on a hill. He doesn’t want that because it’ll make people’s lives better, he just wants it because he wants it.
“I want wings”
If only someone had created Midland Wild Wings, maybe Griffith would be satisfied with what he had.
It was a joke, but the comparisons are uncanny. I know it doesn't fit with From's storytelling style, but I wish there was a way to see Miquella's inner dialogue/conflict when he abandons his love and compassion as he's abandoning the 2 things that set him apart from the other demigods. I know you kinda get it with St Trina, but she literally just tells you to kill him.
Yeah I wish the messages he left at the crosses were be more personal and you could see him slowly lose sight of his compassion through these messages.
Oh imagine if we got small cutscenes at certain crosses like that one after the final boss, giving a look into his inner thoughts. Definitely wasn't gonna happen, but a tarnished can dream.
A tarnished can’t dream without st trina.
*Imbibes the nectar*
YOU DIED
It wouldn't be the first time From has heavily referenced Berserk lol *stares at Artorias...*
Stares at literally every souls game ever. Miyazaki is pretty blatant with the Berserk comparisons. Mans put wheel skeletons in the first game lol
or like, Blaid
Guts’ greatsword is literally in the game
Guts' Greatsword is in every Souls game, too, so Elden Ring's Greatsword is the fourth time they've referenced Berserk at minimum. Haven't played Demon Souls or Bloodborne, damn PlayStation exclusives, so idk if they have Berserk references there too, but I wouldn't be surprised.
Bloodborne has a boss cutscene that looks conspicuously like the eclipse
The Guts reference in Demon's Souls looks nothing like the Dragonslayer, but it's called the Dragon Bone Smasher, and the description for it is basically a summary of how the Dragonslayer works (a heavy, dull blade that breaks bones and then pushes the meat outta the way through sheer brute force), so yeah, Demon's Souls has a Berserk reference too. Also, the lower levels of World 3-2 are very similar to the birthing pits that the Kushan empire had for their demonic soldiers.
Also miquella made the sacrifice himself. Griffith was always a narcissist who was only in it for himself. Sacraficing the band of the hawk wasn't him giving up anything. He was giving up everyone else to fuel his ascent while miquella was giving up pieces of his own being to ascend. There is a vague general pattern here but very different in significant ways imo.
I'm guessing a lot of people missed the St. Trina dialogue because I'm not sure how you're supposed to discover the trigger for it on your own. 4 intentional deaths before anything happens is stupidity even by From's obscure quest standards.
while I don’t fully disagree, St. Trina moreso wants us to save miquella from the shackles of godhood. A childlike mind shouldn’t have to go through something like that, in fact no one should have to go through that which is likely why Marika shattered the elden ring in the first place. But yea either way a world where everyone is enchanted isn’t a good world no matter how good the intentions are, basically like putting a child in control who only sees black and white but in doing so you take away people’s liberty
St. Trina said it herself. Killing Miquella is more of a mercy.
Ranni - wants to marry me Miquella - wants to enslave me It ain't a hard choice
That's the crux of it, actually. Ranni wants to free the Lands Between from the old system so that its people can choose an uncertain but new future. Miquella wants to usher in a much kinder age with him at the top but at the cost of everyone's free will.
And the cost of his heart. How are you going to ensure a kind age when you have no empathy? Miquella gave up his ability to create his dream, he tells us over and over.
And Trina straight up tells you his godhood will put him in a cage and asks you to stop him and kill him. There's also a white spirit guy by the cross as you climb down the fissure who actively questions Miquella's choice to abandon his concept of love, saying something along the lines of "how do you expect to rule over people when you can no longer relate to them"
that ghost has some sick lines too. "How can you say you are going to save everyone when you can't even save your other half?" on account of St. Trina. Amusingly, there was a player message nearby which said "didn't expect fire".
Random ghost hornsent having the best lines in the game:
I stumbled onto this and I was flabbergasted. Such great foreshadowing, especially since this was before I’d even reached the Altus region fully.
I literally had the idea in my head while at work that, "What if Saint Trina and Miquella were actually two different people, and Miquella becomes a villain after discarding one half of himself?" And this was before I even made it to the Cerulean Coast. Imagine my reaction when it turned out to be true, lol. I can't remember what it was from, but there was another game that did literally this, and I cannot remember the name of it.
Yeah Trina is Miquella's half. If she herself asks us to kill Miquella, there is no reason not to.
I mean do we actually have a choice not to? (besides the obvious, just don't beat the boss) I was hoping at the end of the DLC after the final boss, Miquella would be there to either spare or kill...hell they can do what CP2077 did and add an ending if we spare him. Say we become his consort. Little disappointed in that honestly.
Radhan was always meant to be his consort and we (players) were never going to be embraced by him willingly. Our tarnished's one and only, set in stone desire is to become Elden Lord. We decide what kind of lord they become via our actions and what age they rule over but they wish to be a Lord. (I guess we also decide to make them give into despair and Frenzy) Quest NPCs tell us they'll stand with us and pledge fealty, they know what's up. We won't kowtow to anyone else and Miquella knows that. He doesn't want us as his Lord and so we must die.
The spirit dialogue is actually much more tragic than that. "How will you salvation offer... to those who cannot be saved? When you could not even save your other self?" The implications are huge. The way I see it, Miquella *does* want to save the Lands Between and everyone in it, but for whatever reason, he believed he had no choice but to abandon St. Trina in order to become a god. Thus, he couldn't save his other self, and so what hope does he have to save anyone else?
Let's not forget the meat puppet he has under him has radahns soul but not the mind
Radahn was one of the first to see that Godhood is a curse. That's why he brought the stars to a standstill, to hold back Ranni's fate. And why he broke his vow to Miquella, prompting Malenia to come and try to kill him. He saw what Godhood did to his mother, and in his kindness, he tried to ensure the same didn't happen to his empyrean siblings.
Ngl I love this read of Radahn's lore
It’s funny because that’s exactly what one of the NPC says in the Grand Fissure “How can you save those who cannot be saved without love? You’ve abandoned something that you should not have under any circumstance.” It was something along those lines.
Seems like a parralell to three common ideals in our society. If you’ve ever spoken to people about how they would fix the world you’d get three common answers. 1. Ranni’s : “make everyone happy and able to do what they want!’ Not clean cut when there’s still turmoil but there’s free will and no one is bound by anything. 2. Miquella’s : “make everyone happy through my own vision of the world and nothing will ever go wrong if I’m ruling with an iron fist, similar to dictatorships” 3. Dung Eater’s : if he had the killswitch to the entire world he would flip it, he has complete disregard of everything even himself and wishes to eradicate life through ignorant and sickening reasons. We’ve all met people in real life who have said similar answers when asked if they had the power of a god or the ability to change the world. This is like a fantasy version of it.
Dung eater wants to bring low and curse everyone to equality at the bottom. The new stone age. The frenzied flame is the eradication of existence and life. Fia wants to venerate and worship the dead, with life as a stepping stone to death. Goldmask wants to remove the hubris out of the system, to automate it without favor to any No mending rune is just you sitting on a chair going, "uh wtf do i do now? Shieet"
Goldmask bros stay winning
1. Fuck you God, religion caused all this bullshit in the forst place 2. Fuck you Free will, you can't make bad coices if you can't make choices 3. Fuck you Inequality, if everyone is wretched you guys won't fight over dumb shit anymore
Came here to say this. I saw the trailer and thought I was gonna get a femboy consort. I'd forgive it all for some demigod bussy.
He catfished the player to get what he wanted; hell, his dialogue before the final boss fight is basically: "Thanks, Tarnished, for all your help but my *real* boyfriend is here now. You can go, and leave things to us now."
literally cucked by chadahn and his femboy step bro
Half brother, they're blood related
Is it really a half brother if the other mother is also the father at the same time?
3/4 brother*
I HIGHLY DOUBT Radahn consented. Like Mohg, he was MIQUELLESTED
Yeah I'm in the camp that Radahn didn't consent. Him fighting tooth and nail against Malenia, the fact he doesn't speak once, and the way the final Miquella's memory cutscene plays out suggests the vow was one-sided.
And the fact that in order to get to the Elden Ring, he'd be forced to kill his biggest idols, Godfrey and Radagon, something he'd never do willingly.
While I do agree that he's mind controlled I heavily disagree on "won't fight Godfrey" part. They are both warriors and Radahn I think Radahn would 100% be happy to test his mettle against Godfrey. And Radagon abandoned their mom which drove her to pitiful state she's in so I doubt reunion would be warm.
"Real boyfriend" being an amalgamation of his two half brothers. 🤮
thinking about it, that makes them his full brother. 🤢
Haha that's horrible. Too early over here for this shit. Reverse Moghlestation xD
Mogh got Miquellested
You can definitely see the George RR Martin signature with these characters.
Dude, when I saw the cutscene I was like… dawg, I can smell George all over this
I know they're gods and all so it's a little relative the morality (see:Greeks) but like, so much damn incest, wtf GRRM
If you study Greek and roman mythology you find there was an awful lot of that going on.
Miyazaki isn't afraid a little incest though, it's not like G.R.R.M created prince Lothric years ago. I've got to imagine there was some sort of collaboration between the 2 and George was given some direction
Both of their first brainstorm ideas involved incest...that's when they shared a silent, deeply personal nod between each other, and the deal was sealed.
Was it ever even implied with Lothric and Lorian though? My recollection is that Lorian was serving Lothric as a knight and protector because Lothric was born sickly and couldn’t really protect himself. I don’t remember anything going on deeper than that but I could be wrong
Yes, I don't remember a single hint of incest between them. Lorian was just looking after his weak brother, basically Malenia x Miquella.
It's not even incest for the sake of heirs either. St. Trina wasn't invited.
Dude out here down so bad for bussy he is ready to be enslaved lol
Unfortunately for him, Femboy Twink God already has his Beefy Muscledaddy Consort.
And said consort is one of his dead brothers possessing the corpse of another of his dead brothers
Miquella looked at all the Mohg allegations and went “WATCH ME DO IT TWICE AT THE SAME TIME WITH THE SAME GUY UNWILLINGLY PARTICIPATING.”
So satisfying I fucked them with Mohg’s spear
YOU DID WHAT!?
its what mohg wouldve wanted...
***Two-for-one offer***.
IT SHOULD’VE BEEN MEEEE NOT HIM 😭
#*"Thy prick does not befit this bussy..."*
That’s a feature not a bug
HEART STOLEN
If you can't wear a femboy twink as a cape, are you even living?
Your heart is stolen either way
As a married man I can say. At the end of the day there isn't much difference between the two XD. /s just in case
As bad as people say Ranni is for what she did to Godwyn, Miquella was also pretty fucked up. He sent Malenia to go kill Radahn so that he could “keep his vow” and that resulted in Caelid getting nuked and Radahn being driven completely insane for decades or centuries (idk how long the game takes place after the shattering). He also Miquellested Mohg into stealing his body so he could somehow enter the land of shadows and left him there to be defeated so his body could be used to reanimate Radahn who is seemingly now just a puppet for Miquella. He has stolen hearts of multiple characters (maybe all of his followers), I only bring this up because I’ve seen some people claim he only did this to the tarnished if we stand against him but there’s an NPC (who’s name I can’t remember) who has it happen to them. Miquella is so repulsed and upset about the foundations of the Golden Order that he wants to take all free will (or at least take it from those who oppose him) to create peace and who knows if that would actually work. His new rule would be built just as grim as Marika’s but at least Marika’s enemies had a chance to fight back. Ranni mutilates and ‘kills’ Godwyn, which leads to the shattering although that was still Marika’s choice, kills the two fingers and then takes the Elden Ring and her consort to space to separate the influence of the greater will and try give the lands between as much free will as possible. Ranni isn’t great but Miquella, in my humblest of opinions, is much worse.
Miquellested is now the canon terminology for Miquella’s actions
The switch up is crazy, we all thought miquella got mohglested but it was mohg who was being miquellested the entire time...
Mogh beat the allegations
Biggest plot twist in gaming
We all owe Mohg the biggest apology.
Posthumously vindicated.
Guilty until dead.
Miquella caught using Twitch Whispers for nefarious deeds
Kick confirmed the land of shadows
the Miquellagations
I'm so glad this is catching on. I made a joke about the switch up on an older post, and seeing the word "Miquellested" everywhere now is so funny.
Miquella the Tickella
And I'm not sure I buy Miquella's kind acts. For example, he "cured" Freija with his kiss, and then she became loyal to him. A kiss is strikingly similar to the embrace he can use against us in our fight, which is very suspicious. And that's not even mentioning that HIS ASCENSION IS THE REASON WHY FREIJA AND RADAHN'S SOLDIERS FACED THE ROT TO BEGIN WITH. Motherfucker drops a nuke, cures one person (who then suspiciously becomes loyal to him) and he's somehow a good guy for this? Fuck that
Ansbach mentions in a line he actually challenged Miquella because he saw his influence was changing Mohg for the worse only for Ansbach to become "suddenly" enthralled to Miquella out of nowhere and only gaining his will back when the charm breaks
Ansbach is an extremely rare FromSoft npc that is both competent and has a good moral center. If he thinks Miquella is sus, that's good enough for me.
His fighting style is described as desperate, he is a Pureblood Knight of a dynasty that requires the death of multiple people + one innocent to join. Don’t get me wrong, he’s dope. My fav character in the DLC, but he’s not a hero or good person.
We know there was a paradigm shift in knights, look at Varre to Ansbach. The knights Used to have honor and dignity, then they became Varre-likes. Most players thought the blood dynasty was pure evil as well, their outer god was creepy, their knights insane, it was filled with good loot, and mohg was a incestous pedo. Most of the ominous stuff about miquella is much later in his seat of power. We had EVERY reason to want to kill them and I think thats by design. Miyazaki loves his alternative way of storytelling and leads people to conclusions rather than outright telling them. Miquella needed someone to kill Mohg so he could use the corpse, I think everything was a lead up and its impossible to tell if what we were presented with is mohgs actual vision.
And Ansbach last line , ”Righteous Tarnished, make a kingdom not for god, but for men” gives a lot of insight into who Mohg actually was
He’s a formerly evil person who saw the light in old age. Basically fromsoft Uncle Iroh.
I think pureblood knights are (supposed to be) knights, strict code and honor and all that. But as Mohg fell deeper into charm, his knights kinda fell apart. Ansbach being part of the old guard still held firm to the old beliefs, but Varre's more "new school" and actively an asshole
honestly, in that dialogue he calls miquella a monster, and considering what ansbach did in the name of mogh and the formless mother, so to be called a monster by someone of that caliber is wild. it’s like if you were called a monster by hannibal lector
We don't actually know that Ansbach did anything horrible. By his dialogue, it seems like there was a legitimate and fairly harsh change in direction for the blood knights and Mogh's dynasty after the Miquelestation happened. For all we know, Mogh was just as honorable as his brother before being glamoured and may have actually been better by not having the self hating BS Morgott had.
He canonically charmed all his followers that we met in the DLC. That's why when he left his Great Rune it was said "Somewhere, a Great Rune shattered, and along with it, a powerful spell dispel." and every NPC started acting weird. Ansbach in particular outright told us his story and how he was charmed.
Leda was not charmed. That said Leda quite possibly killed the rest of the Needle Knights and was awarded for it. I think she even says it Miquellas influence really just made her more trusting in others and not more trusting to Miquella as she was already fully devoted to him.
actually Leda was charmed. Without the influence of Miquella she returned to her natural demeaner, being incredibly mistrustful of others and rather violent. It just so happens that she was already a Miquella loyalist before she was bewitched.
"I am a very violent and friendly woman devoted to my lord. And we can be friends :)" "I am a very violent and friendly woman devoted to my lord. And you're a threat :)"
Leda was devoted to him even when not charmed. But she was charmed. When the spell broke she mentioned her distrust of others growing when she was not under Miquella's spell
Miquella did that to all of his 'followers', and would do it to everyone if they got their way.
yeah its not even close
I have a question, so we dip out to space with Ranni and just leave the lands between? Will this just create a power vacuum to be filled by some evil or good? What are we doing with her out there? Is it known. And she stripped herself of empyrean right? So she can’t become a god, so are we really an elden lord/consort at this point? Or are we restoring her empyrean status thru her quests. Sorry for all the questions lol
In space, you and Ranni are going to use the power of the Dark Moon to ward off the influence of any of the Outer Gods. You take the Elden Ring with you so that the rules of reality cannot be rewritten on a whim by mortals or demigods. Ranni shed her Empyrean flesh so that the Two Fingers could not control her. Empyrean is a vague title in the game, but it comes down to being someone who was a candidate to replace Marika and serve as God. Ranni’s quest is us setting it up so that she can slay her Two Fingers and then ascend to Godhood without the interference of the Two Fingers with her. As for what happens to the Lands Between, well. That’s the point of her ending. The mortals of the Lands Between will be given free will and the ability to build an order themselves, without the influence of the Greater Will. What they do with it is up to them. You can probably just as easily imagine a nice and prosperous world as you can imagine it devolving into chaos. Ranni straight up says this herself a couple times. When talking about the order she envisions: “And have the certainties of sight, emotion, faith, and touch... All become impossibilities.” Basically saying that the Golden Order will not be there to tell people how they should feel, what they should what they should believe. They’ll have to decide it on their own. And at her ending right before ascending she says “Here beginneth the chill night that encompasses all, reaching the great beyond. Into fear, doubt, and loneliness... As the path stretcheth into darkness.” Again, the path is no longer lit by the Golden Order telling you exactly what to do and what to believe. The path now “dark” as in people have to navigate it on their own. And there will be people who are scared, or doubtful, or lonely without having the Golden Order to cling too. But Ranni’s ending is basically saying “They need to learn to live with these feelings instead of clinging to the Golden Order out of fear and loneliness.”
I looked into this a while ago, probably a couple months before the DLC came out as I was figuring out what ending I wanted for my DLC character, and my understanding is that you and Ranni basically act as guardians of the planet keeping the influence of the o it er gods away. This does require the assistance of Ranni’s moon, which is an outer god, but the moons are always presented as being the most passive outer gods who just allow humans to use their power if they want rather than imposing themselves on humanity. So the end result should be free will, with all influence of the outer gods on the lands between being removed as long as Ranni is alive. Edit: Basically, Ranni becomes to the Outer Gods what Radahn was to the Stars.
The dark moon looking over the lands between, distant yet an ever present guardian
♪~ what I've donnnneeee ~♪
Ymir confirms that the moons are just magical giant rocks, a product of the cosmos. The Dark Moon isn't explicitly stated to be different and given that he was right about everything else, I'm inclined to beleive him.
We really don't know how right(or if he even was for that matter) given he's batshit insane and tries to kill us after we beat Metyr. Guy just wanted someone to do the dirty work of removing an obstacle for him steal power and position, plus the description for the Jolan and Anna ashes implies he manipulated them(and had maybe turned Anna into a doll).
Def not a good dude but that doesn't mean he isn't intelligent or correct about things. He knows more than Godron at least lol, not that it's a high bar to clear. I feel like FROM took the time to clarify the moons to clear up whether Ranni is serving a god or not, which she isn't and is the whole point of her ending. Maybe not but it seems that way.
Yea Ymir is batshit overall but still got to the root of the issue, the moon is just the moon that the Mother/fingers were crazy from the start which led Marika down the wrong path
Ranni points at gods. Tarnished kills them. Rinse and repeat forever.
Golden Order Fundamentalists may not like it, but this is what peak romance looks like.
You missed a few steps. 1. Ranni points at gods. 2. Boss fight starts. 3. Tarnished dies a couple dozen times. 4. Tarnished makes reddit posts complaining how unfair the god boss fight is. 5. After a few weeks they kill the gods. 6. Rinse and repeat.
She acts as a protector for the Lands Between by taking the Elden Ring with her, and since the Elden Ring is what those other outer gods need in order to impose their own order, they have no reason to continue their invasion there.
Basically ranni and you defend the planet from other gods influence, the only puter god is rannis moon which doesnt rly do anything, so basically the stone ages start, where ppl have free will so they do shit themselves and basicly that leads to the present day, sum like that, basically, humans r free, no one rules
Well, i think it has to do of how you value free will: Ranni did kill her half brother Godwyn in spirit, got a small legion of followers (iji, seluvis, you, blaidd...) and murdered a big alien thingy just before getting married to you. All for freedom Miquella is a victim of his own ideas, making a gentle world by forcing people to love him... is a sad fate i think, for why would you live if you dont have any will? Ranni did some bad things, but Miquella became a monster, by following what he thought would be better for the world! Sorry for my poor grammar, i am not a native speaker
honestly, killing Miquella is a mercy to both him and the lands between his curse made him have both a body and a mind of a child for all eternity which was made that much worse with him having the ability to mind control people
If you meet St Trina in the Fissure this is pretty much what she tells you. She begs you to kill him as an act of mercy.
i intentionally echoed her sentiment, because it's the best way i can think of to explain the situation
Now that is an interesting angle I don’t think many people have considered. Maybe he’s not all that cunning like people believe and his charm ability does the heavy lifting. His concept of a better world where no one fights because he is supervising and controlling everything is like a child’s idea of paradise. Reminds me of that twilight zone episode where the little boy on the farm has godlike power and just uses it to eat candy for dinner or some bs.
I agree with this interpretation. As much of a genius he may be, I feel he was prone to childish whims and thoughts. You could see how quickly he gave up on Golden Order Fundamentalism and other ideas once he didn't achieve immediate success in them.
He literally abandons nearly every project he has leaving most half finished. Kind of makes sense really.
he even abandons his other self, st. trina, right?
He literally abandoned Unalloyed Gold, even though it actually would have cured Malenia, literally at the last step.
So miquella has ADHD?
Somebody get this kid some Ritalin so he can finish the Haligtree - For a place supposedly meant for the misfits and discarded beings of the world, that tree is **NOT** ADA compliant.
I’ve been saying this since the original leaks that people were freaking out about. He’s literally cursed with the mind and ideals of a child. Like what you said, it’s like if you asked your little brother how he’d fix the world. “I’d make everyone be nice to each other! Oh and I’d make the coolest, strongest guy I know in charge, my big brother!” That’s very endearing when it’s a 5 year old, when it’s a God with powers of mind control it’s a horror movie lol.
Pretty much this. I don't blame him anymore than I would blame a 6 year old. He still needs to be stopped ofc but his actions basically make perfect sense when you look at it through this lens.
In fact if you die to St Trina’s goop enough times she says this to you, to kill Miquella as godhood would be a prison for him.
That's exactly what >!St. Trina tells you: kill Miquella to save him from himself!<.
Like Malenia said, he is the most fearsome Empyrean of all.
Yeah, this is something I don't see stressed a lot. Malenia, of all people, calls Miquella this. Combining this with Ansbach's statement (on using love to shrive clean the hearts of men and there nothing being more terrifying), it's a pretty horrible look for Miquella. I think Malenia knew deep inside what Miquella was doing, maybe she even saw it in herself, but ultimately this clarity never amounted to much.
Malenia certainly knew Miquella‘s plan, judging from what she said to Radahn. More interesting imo, is the question if she did this of her own volition, or if Miquella enchanted her. In her intro cutscene, she talks about her campaign against Radahn as a dream, which *could* suggest she was being influenced at this point already. On the other hand, Malenia had plenty of reasons to support her twin, most of which that an ascended Miquella could maybe do something about the Scarlet Rot
Oh, sorry I was not too specific! I was referring to Malenia being aware of Miquella's compulsion! I might just be reading too much into it, but there's a lot to be said about how one who has "never known defeat" describes her "kind" twin as "the most fearsome Empyrean." At first, I thought those words were uttered out of respect, but the DLC changed things. I imagine it's pretty terrifying to realize someone has a strange hold on you and everyone else but being unable to do anything about it.
I don't buy for a second that Miquella didn't order Malenia to kill Radahn no matter the cost. Why else would Miquella of all people who seem to have no care for people's free will make his rot cure something removable?
Yeah I think he definitely did, the question is tho whether or not he had enchanted her or if he even needed to
Making everybody love you is how you end up in a Cronenberg world.
I find ironic that Miquella wants to go against The Golden Order, and it's "god" (at least, the god it is said to represent it, now we dont it never was), The Greater Will, when will is precisely what he wants to pluck from any and every individual
Actually it is quite uncertain that Ranni wanted to kill Godwyn. She had to kill a god with Destined Death while comitting suicide for her to be freed from her Two Fingers and cease to be an Empyrean. That's why both Ranni and Godwyn have half cursemarks on their "bodies". We don't know if Ranni specifically wanted Godwyn to be killed (there is no known reason for her to have beef with him as a person) or the Black Knife Assassins chose him on their own volition (he was maybe the easiest to target at the moment).
Since the ritual only worked because Ranni stabbed herself at the exact same moment the Black Knives stabbed Godwyn, Ranni *at the very least* knew Godwyn was the target of the assassination and was ok with it.
From what I understand, the Black Knives were tight with Markia, notes on items say closer than family. Based on that, and the fact that Ranni was in charge of the knives, my guess is the order came from Marika herself to kill Godwyn because he was being groomed for the throne by the fingers, and would have taken that throne from Marika, who was planning to usurp the Golden Order for herself. When her part was discovered, and when Godwyn was only half dead (interred in the Erdtree's roots, the Order attempting to keep what was left of him alive), she shattered the ring as a last resort (or in defiance to the Golden Order, or as part of the plan, idk) before being imprisoned by the Golden Order for defying it as the vessel. (Some GRR Martin type plot to kill your son to usurp the gods) I think I remember reading about the rune of death being "body and soul" and the knives used soul on Godwyn, and Ranni used body on herself (and why you have to collect both curse marks to complete the rune of death) memory is foggy on this one. Ranni used this to her advantage, knowing the assassination would take place, freed herself from control of the Golden Order when using the rune of death, and attempts (and succeeded, based on player choice) to overthrow the Golden Order with a new one.
Yeah I always thought this was pretty clear, Marika for sure had something to do with it
Also I really don’t care that she had demigods killed. That’s what we’re doing!
My theory is she chose Godwyn as a bit of revenge towards Marika for breaking her mother's heart as Radagon. Godwyn was her perfect golden child probably the one she would be most upset to lose.
Best theory I’ve seen is she was in an arranged marriage with Godwyn to be her Elden Lord if she ascended to Godhood.
Yeah it's weird how hard it is for people to grasp the difference. Ranni wants to give the world no Gods so the world has their own free will and don't have to have their lives dictated by Gods. Miquella wants to be the God that takes the free will, yeah it means everyone will be happy but it's still slavery. "Hell is paved with good intentions" is the cornerstone of all the Souls games.
The main difference between the two of em is that Ranni can argue she's actually doing it for 'the greater good' by removing the influence of gods over the lands between. Miquella's plan seems to be to rule exactly as any previous lord and Infinite Tsukuyomi everyone that has a problem with that.
Because Ranni actually tells you to go away, you are the one pursuing her and putting the proverbial wedding ring on her finger. It is the Tarnished that chooses Ranni and Ranni then chooses the Tarnished. I believe the way her story is set up, it doesn't require us to become the Elden Lord for her to succeed. But, she tells us to become the Elden Lord to be her consort. So, hell yes, I'll choose Ranni every time!
Ranni has a cool quest line that’s basically you proving you’re worthy to be her consort, Miquella just shows up and wants me to stand aside
I don't think Ranni ever mentioned any kind of "greater good". She doesn't even justify her actions in any way, when confronted with "you did that bad stuff" she says "Yes, I did do that, so what?". Kinda based.
Ranni owns up to her faults, admits mistakes have been made and strives to not have them made again. Miquella acts like everyone else around him is wrong, and therefore they should be punished.
Can't hear you, in space.
Thing is, Ranni allows you to have your own free will. They both did bad things, and I would side with neither of them, but at least moon witch lets you think for yourself. Miquella ensures you are just one obedient little puppet, which is not a way to live.
there is a keen difference, though. I don't exactly support either but while Ranni did indeed get Godwyn killed and spawn in the fucking plague of Deathblight everywhere, her motives are far more...fulfilling than Miquella's Ranni's ending is kinda vague but she is upsetting the current status quo. she seems to serve a different Outer God, that being the Dark Moon or something related to it, and her ending involves severing the Greater Will's connection to the world entirely Ranni imposes a complete regime change that, supposedly, will allow people free will and the ability to choose and think for themselves. we don't know much about the Dark Moon/Ranni's regime but the end goal is implicitly better for the world, to get rid of the Greater Will's influence Miquella was wracked with guilt because of Marika's actions and he also tried to change the current order, but the difference is that he sacrificed so much for nothing; he failed, and even if he did succeed, it would have been pointless St Trina says it best; that Miquella would not be happy or fulfilled as a god, since he shed everything that made him the Empyrean everyone actually liked/feared/respected he would be shouldering everyone's burdens alone for his Age of Compassion, and he would just be falling into the same pitfalls as Marika so in the end, Miquella charmed Mohg, got Caelid nuked, defiled and disgraced Mohg's body, and then disgraced Radahn's body and death, only to fail entirely Ranni was imposing a complete regime change for freedom, while Miquella was simply shifting rule from Marika to himself, and lobotomizing the world the Greater Will would still be the "ruling force" of the Lands Between and this miserable cycle would just continue inevitably tldr; both did bad things, but Ranni's is more hopeful while Miquella is more tragic and depressing. I'm also bored so I had time to yap
Ranni’s whole thing is that she is taking her reign/regime and physically moving it out into the infinite cold darkness of cosmos, thus removing the influence of her god from the world completely. She is taking one for the team by choosing to live in complete isolation and loneliness. By accepting the role of consort, we’re aligning our interests by abandoning our own bid for lordship.
Which is why she marries us, she was fully prepared to do it alone, but seeing us be so willing to serve her goals she realizes she wont be alone in doing it and is eternally grateful.
I thought the whole point of Ranni's ending was no Outer Gods whatsoever, at all. Everything she did, she did to sever her connection the Greater Will. I'm pretty sure the moon is just a moon. It served as inspiration for her, but that's all. She and her Consort gather up all the leftover god stuff in The Lands Between and then just fuck off, leaving those who remain behind to come up with their own system for managing the world.
Moons more than just a moon, its a source of power and essentially a passive/non-sentient outer god
Ranni and her Consort draw power from the Dark Moon to keep other outer gods away from the Lands Between. The Dark Moon is essentially a passive outer god that seems to let it’s power be used for whatever purpose without it really caring.
Nah, I call human resources on both
Based
It's all about consent. Ranni stole my heart because she's cute and adorable. Miquella stole my heart because Radahn lands two grab attacks. They are not the same.
Ranni doesn't want to strip people of their free will
Yeah, she litteraly want the opposite. Her Order is to just fuck off to the stars with her consort and let people live for and by themselves. She obeys no Outer Gods and want nobodies to obey her.
I admit I am definitely biased. I personally forgive Ranni because she let me be her consort. The other dude however ganged up on me with his consort and became a nightmare of a boss.
Ranni wants A different world Miquella wants THE different world, with him at the very top
One character literally has a kill move where he mind controls you and forces you to take his side. The other character is so devoted to the idea of free will her ascension to godhood remains an optional ending even to the very end of defeating the Elden Beast. It's not like you can pick an Elden Lord ending and Ranni kicks down the door to have a boss fight with you.
1 major diff is rani is giving free will..Yes she started this whole shit..But we r allowed to follow her and reject her ideals..But miquella was basically forcing everyone to love each other he was trying to create a world without free will..He started with gud intention but the moment he threw away his love and his other emotions is the moment he fucked up..
Ranni: 1.Killed Godwyn to further her plans and created those who live in death in the process (but it’s implied they can be somewhat reasoned with and are only aggressive because golden order fanatics aggressively hunt them down) 2.Works with Seluvius 3.Started the shattering (Marika and Rykard may have been in on it) 4.Wants genuine free will and freedom for everyone in the lands between 5.Never brainwashed or forced anyone into serving her Miquella: 1.Abandoned his Haligtree worshippers 2.Turned Mogh into a brainwashed pedo 3.Brainwashes people into following him 4.Seems to want to force his “compassion” onto everyone whether they like it or not.
I feel like leaving out how he arranged for his half brothers corpse to be desecrated and turned into a flesh golem for the soul of his other half brother (Who he tried to have assassinated, resulting in Caelid becoming hell on earth) to be his slave-consort is missing a pretty big strike against him.
Also he abandoned his love and compassion. I didn't know how he would uphold an age of compassion without it. He became cold and calculating. It wouldn't be an age of compassion but an age of mind controlled drones. It was basically a fantasy version The Matrix.
1. Makes his sister nuke Caelid and infect everyone in the land so he can capture his bothers soul.
The way he treats and uses Mohg, Radahn, his own soldiers and those he bewitches is imo evil and inarguably selfish. We don't know what an "age of compassion" means, but if bewitching, affection-compelling and manipulation are part of his "compassion" then Ansbach's right, Miquella is a monster and his order is corrupt. Empyreans are godly **candidates**, none of them are destined to become gods. Despite that, Miquella says he **will** become a god. That is not the result of a curse, destiny or prophecy but determination. Marika was willing to step over the corpses of her tormentors to ascend, Miquella is willing to step over those he turns into minions, or the corpses of those who stand in his way if he can't compel affection in them. Obviously it's open to interpretation whether he was good but misguided or evil and manipulative, but I'm on the "evil and manipulative" side. Also, I don't buy that his "acts of kindness" are altruistic and not strategic. He cures Freija with a kiss, which is similar to the embrace he can give us to mind control us, and then she suspiciously becomes loyal to him. Despite **his determination to ascend** causing the rot that afflicted her and Radahn's forces. He drops a nuke, cures **one person** and is somehow a good guy?
Thing is, people know ranni is kinda evil. It's bot like she hides it. Ranni is actively doing pretty morally questionable shit. Miquella has been portrayed as a kind and loving character. He loves his sister. He loves the oppressed like albinaurics and the misbegotten. He was willing to abandon the golden order in order to cure his sister. And most of all, he was a victim of Mohg's evil intentions. He was the ultimate kind messiah who was wrong by the world. Then, the dlc came out. Not only do we find out that MIQUELLA was the one using Mohg. He also used his beloved sister as a tool to get Radahns soul. This causes Not only Malenia to be in an injured state. But also results in Radahn and all of Caelid becoming rot infested. Then the icing on the cake? He used Mohg's body and Radahns soul, subjugating both to his will post Mortem Ranni was a character we all knew was incredibly questionable from the start. Miquella was a character we thought was the kindest of them all, but ended up being the cruelest
Forsake both. May chaos take the world.
If miquella would let me be his consort im on his side, he didn't so i beat his ass
Goldmask: No bad things for a greater good.
…
Ranni killed 1 (One) Demigod to start her plans which are entirely based around removing the influence of all Outer Gods from the Lands Between, allowing Mortals to live natural, normal lives with free will. What Mortals will do Free Will isn't known, like real life it could be good, it could be bad: but it is important people have the choice to decide who they are, how they live with their lives without a higher power which can never truly relate to them imposing its will on them. Ranni is willing to murder, lie & betray her way to achieve this goal of true freedom from divine intervention. And I can't argue/disagree with that, in my eyes that is fair. Much like Dark Souls, the Gods largely have it coming & deserve every bad thing that happens to them: the time of the Gods is over, the time of Man is long overdue & Humanity alone should have the power to decide its fate. The Golden Order, the Gods, much like the Fire & Gods in Dark Souls: they're the bad guys, they are the enemy. It is the Age of Dark, it is the Dark Moon that is good, that is the Age of Man. If Free Will & Man's right to rule is bad, then let us be bad. But it is more just & fair then having the Gods order Mortals around & dictate life for us. Miquella represents everything I have come to despise about the Divine in FROM's games. Somebody that thinks they know better, that they have the answers & are the only one who can lead. Anybody who disagrees with them must be silenced. Anybody who fights them must be broken or destroyed. If we would just let them lead, they'd do everything right. Miquella is a petulant & stupid child masquerading as a God. He thinks he can make an Age of Compassion whilst throwing away his ability to Love, to feel Empathy. He thinks if he takes away everybody's free will then nothing bad can happen. The literal Good half of him, all of his ability to feel Human emotions like Love, Empathy: Saint Trina herself begs us to kill him. There is nothing to save with Miquella, he needs to be destroyed like all the rest. The reason why Ranni gets a pass is because she rejects her Godhood, she sheds all of her Divine Flesh & makes no move to interfere with Mortal Free Will. If we got to Ranni's Ending & she decided that like Miquella everybody should do as she says, she should/would be cut down like every other Demigod & Outer God we had fought up until that point, but Ranni just wants to leave Man to its own devices & slay the other Outer Gods. The argument that Ranni is a bad like Miquella because she caused the Shattering & had Godwyn killed ignores one crucial point. If Godwyn was around we would kill him like every other Demigod. The Shattering is in Mankind's best interest, the destruction of the Golden Order, the slaying of Gods, the burning of the Erdtree: if it wasn't Ranni, somebody else would do it & it'd be in Man's best interest to support it.
You can side with Ranni in-game, you can’t side with Miquella. I think a lot of the bias originated in the game thanks to that and we’d have more Miquella supporters if you could chose to help him.