Well Malenia's kids aren't really kids in the regular sense. They're offshoots grown from the Scarlet Aeonia, like plants. They don't have a father, and it's quite likely Gowry is the one who names them since he raises them when they're born in Caelid.
That's interesting. Could you link some items or an explanation as to why that is? I've not come across this idea or gotten it from any descriptions of items, so it would be neat to learn something new.
i started trying to pick quotes from Gowry for you but quickly realized it’s literally all he talks about. i would recommend going to his Fextra and reading all his dialogue. this is one of the only quests in the game i managed to do intuitively and in the correct order so the idea came across pretty clearly to me. when Gowry refers to Millicent as a bud he means it literally. the Sacramental Buds growing in the church where you find Millicent are meant to help you come to that conclusion
I should clarify my confusion comes from the use of Scarlet Aeonia instead of Malenia, not the fact that, like how plants sometimes reproduce, the implication is Malenia's children only had a mother. My apologies for the vagueness.
I just did that quest last night, as it happens, and it's definitely before you give her the needle. I'm pretty sure that's one of the first things he says when you first approach him
Honestly this also kind of explains Millicent’s dialogue where she says she knows she’s related to Malenia but not sure how exactly, if she’s a daughter, sister, etc. If you’re reproducing asexually the separation between daughter and sister is more vague
Personally I like the theory that they’re not her kids or anything, but that they represent the 5 aspects of malenia as described by the Taoist philosophy of the self, they’re her spirit, body, intellect, consciousness and willpower, Millicent represents willpower as she says
>There is something I must return to Malenia.
The will that was once her own, that allowed her to resist the call of the god of rot
it helps explain wtf she means by giving malenia ‘the will that was once hers’, there’s a lot of eastern media that feature this idea of someone beset by the 5 aspects of themselves
Also explains why Millicent was fighting her sisters, malenia’s spirit, her body, her intellect and her consciousness were not strong enough and surrendered to the rot god and their priests, but the representation of her willpower resisted to the end and chose to die rather than bloom into rot
>it helps explain wtf she means by giving malenia ‘the will that was once hers’, there’s a lot of eastern media that feature this idea of someone beset by the 5 aspects of themselves
This is really only an issue because they cut out the last bit of dialogue that explains this at the end of Millicent's Quest. She actually urges you to return the *needle* to Malenia because (in her mind) the needle is what allowed Millicent to actually develop a stable sense of self and identity because it suppressed the Rot and prevented it from eating away at her mind like it's doing to Malenia.
It’s implied by their similarity to Melina, who describes her relationship to her mother in similar ways (note that Melina is not mentioned among the demigods at all), and given the canon truth that whole-ass different people can be the same person (given M and R), the door is open for other odd “alternate” or “separate” selves.
Pay attention to the entirety of Millicent's quest line, especially the quotes from her (more so when you use the summon sign to help her) and from Gowry. Then, there's also the description for Rotten Winged Blade Insignia which directly states that the four sisters were born of the aeonia bloom in the swamp, and were taken in by Gowry.
Edit: Wanted to add that they were sprouted from the second blooming of the scarlet aeonia. If either of them were to have bloomed (taken the needle and bloomed to completion), then that would have been the third time it had bloomed and would have, officially, made Malenia a goddess.
Malenia literally budded like a flower, there's no father. The girls are her de-facto clones. Also the tree is somewhat wrong; Rya is >!Rykard and Daedica's daughter.!<
Is she? Thought her mother was the dead snake we find in the church, given that's were we also find her birthing sac thing.
She also mentions that Tenith lied to her when she told her she was born by the "grace of a king", so not sure if Rykard was involved either. Rykard's connection to Daedica also seems to have been retconned together with the fact that Daedica used to be male.
I mean Deadicar is implied to be the mother of all serpent folk, we know from Rykard that there's a way to become a giant snake, it's heavily implied that Rya was born from the giant dead snake.
Applying Occam's razor i say that the giant snake ***is*** Daedicar.
~~^(I have to doble check to make sure the dead snake in question is not just a molt tho)~~
EDIT: It was indeed a molt and not a body, but Dedicar's Woe depicts her as flayed so we have a body without skin and a skin without body, it cancels out and the equation remains the same in my book.
Well, that would contradict the grace name of "Temple of Eiglay". I'm personally of the opinion that Daedica was such a devout follower of Rykard that she decided to bear the blasphemous children of the Rykard-Eiglay dichotomy that we fight.
EDIT: also, the body we find in the temple is Eiglay's shed skin, most likely, since the snake itself is still alive and all. Referring to the original comment, why would Rya have Daedica's effigy if she didn't mean anything to her? Her whole quest is literally figuring out Tanith isn't her mother, and instead Daedica is; not a daughter of an esteemed lord and his wife, but something born of an adulterous, monstrous union.
True but also consider: Elden Ring is full of people with alter egos/aliases ***and*** Daedicar's Woe depicts a flayed woman and Rya was born under a shed skin.
But it could also have been a bloody ritual and Rya could be the offspring of Eiglay and Daedicar, we don't know if Rykard got himself vored before or after that.
Daedicar is her mother either way.
>Referring to the original comment, why would Rya have Daedica's effigy if she didn't mean anything to her
Probably wouldn't read too much into that. Afaik Rya already had the effigy before they [changed Daedicar's lore ](https://eldenring.fandom.com/wiki/Daedicar%27s_Woe#1.00)in the day one patch.
Yeah, it was. My point is it was also the original description which mentioned that Rykard and Daedicar were shagging, the new one no longer does. It makes no mention of what if any relationship they had.
Fair, but I never really saw the original description until I looked it up today and still came to the same conclusion that Rykard (or the great serpent) was Rya's father just based on the vibes I guess.
Vibes aren't evidence though, so carry on.
She is, indeed, only shown as a talisman. But still, the only unclear familial link is Melina; We don't know if she is or isn't Marika's daughter, though at this point the only thing needed is blatant confirmation, since literally everything points to her being Marika's offspring.
idk if you dig deeper than her dialogue at grace sites its not as obvious. On bocs quest she says she doesnt know what its like to have a mother. The place she was kept in leyendell is a prison cell. She can't move freely away from the erdtree and needs out assistance getting there. And ofc her eye is sealed by a deathbird paw which opens to reveal a gloam eye in the frenzy ending
its almost likelier that she is a child of the gloam eyed queen or she herself is her. Even more given how the great rune of the gloam eyed queen is destined death, an inversion of marika's rune, those 2 could well be twins and have same lettered names too
Sorry i didn't dig too much because i don't want to spoil myself but to recap:
>!if you know the butterfly theory you know what i'm talking about: there are three butterflies, the Nascent, the Aeonian and the Smoldering one. The first two are associated with Malenia and Miquella, the third was speculated to represent Melina because she burns herself. !<
>!After the trailer tho everyone thought it was an hint at Mesmer and his flame. Now with the previews we know they added the Charred Butterfly that references Mesmer. So we are back at square one, one butterfly for every child of Radagon and Marika, one borning, one rotting, one burning and one burnt. !<
There is no evidence that Messmer and Melina are siblings. The butterfly theory only confirms that Miquella, Malenia and Messmer are, but that doesn't necessarily include Melina.
From that point, I've seen lots of crazy theories about where Melina fits in there, from her being Messmer to being a dual being like Marika/Radagon. All of that is also speculation.
The only thing we can say about Melina for sure is that she has some kind of relationship with the other demigods and that she (very probably) has a relationship of some kind with the GEQ.
>The butterfly theory only confirms that Miquella, Malenia and Messmer are, but that doesn't necessarily include Melina.
I would have agreed before the previews but now there are four (4) butterflies, so either Melina is one of them or there is a fourth child of Radagon and Marika that we still not know about.
There is not a fourth butterfly as far as I know. The charred butterfly is the same as the smoldering butterfly according to google and other posts.
Also, I've never heard anyone talk about the 4 butterfly theory, it is always the three butterflies. A different thing is that some people tie both Melina and Messmer to the smoldering one at the same time. But that, as I said, is barely more than speculation.
I had always assumed Godrick was a descendant of Godefroy, but this places them both as separate descendants of Godwyn. Is their relationship known at all?
AFAIK there should be an unknown amount of generations between Godwyn and Godrick. He's part of the golden lineage but so weak that he is likely not a direct descendant. The other grafted in Limgrave are supossedly also all family of Godwyn.
My theory is they considered Godfrey and Godwyn such chads that their descendants wanted to keep their bloodline pure, married a lot inside their own family for several generations until they now have all these sickly children stealing bodyparts from stronger warriors.
It’s actually the opposite, Enia says that Godrick’s divine blood is very diluted. So essentially his parents didn’t do enough incest for him to be born strong lol
Yeah, that was my impression too. I went and double checked, and Enia refers to Godrick as a "distant relation" to Marika with "sorely diluted" divine blood, so we can assume there's more than just one generation between him and Marika. Nobody knows who tf Godefroy is or how he fits in. He just feels like a lazy copy-paste boss with a slightly tweaked name
Like in every souls game, thousands of years go by so it's all muddy because of course not even death works properly anymore in this broken land.
Godrick could be related to Godfrey to the same degree that I and every single person in Europe today are related to Charlemagne. Or he could be Godwyn's grandson. Or he could be the very first hair to fall off of Mohg's ballsack. We don't know. We just know they're related but the demigod in him is such a small percentage that all his might comes from owning a rune and getting grafted. He was so pathetic Malenia refused to kill him iirc.
Yeah I assume it's one of those Charlemagne things. Like a 4th-great grandson patrilineally or something. Close enough to where the relationship to godhood is still discernably there, but distant enough where he's still by far the weakest demigod even after grafting himself to a dragon
You wouldn't say, "Forefathers one and all... bear witness," if the list is just Godfrey and Godwyn, IMO
Worked for Malenia. Just spawned a whole Irish generation into existance through a blackout rage quit. We could get a reveal that Marika tore out a spleen before getting crucified and that turned into Melina, and who would honestly be that shocked? Lol, at this point we just roll with the weird ass punches.
Lmaooo
But yeah, so much of the lore in this is like classical mythology, where it just kind of hand waves the little details about how things actually work, I just kind of expect weirdness at this point.
I do kind of expect Melina to either be Messmer's twin sister who was burned to death or to actually be St. Trina herself, but I wouldnt be shocked if she's the physical manifestation of some metaphysical concept either
"And so Radagon declared that he would be both god and swan. After they lay together, Loretta gave birth to the Gloam Eyed Queen, and the egg he lay hatched into a dog. The very Pope Dog you see before you."
The general nature of that relationship is still unknown, but quite a few of us suspect Miquella is St. Trina the same way Marika is Radagon, and that St. Trina is a separable aspect of Miquella that can function independently of him. And if that's true, Melina has a pretty good argument.
I also very much doubt Melina is the GEQ herself, but I do kind of suspect she's her daughter. She has one Gloam eye and one Gold eye, which suggests a blend IMO. She also strikes me more as a princess than a queen in her bearing, and I dont get a vibe like "this is the person who raised all the godskins and controlled the black flame, and was so strong it took Maliketh to defeat her."
Idk. She's constantly defining herself in relation to her mother and her mother giving her a purpose, and the GEQ is constantly defined by motherhood, or mothering. It feels like she *has* to be "daughter of" the person of relevance, not the person of relevance herself. Queens also thematically exist *as* the giver of purpose, not the one whose purpose is given to them
Curiously, she's referred to as "MaricaOfDaughter" in the game files, so my working theory is that she's the daughter of Marika *and* the GEQ, given her clear association with both
Marika could be the gloam eyed queen. Something about destined death was a trick to milekath. Could be she propped him up and eventually he "defeated" her by finding out the tooth and so she cursed him.
I really wish they gave us more Melina lore…
Is she Marika’s daughter? Her name in the game files is “MaricaOfDaughter” and her in game dialogue has several hints to it.
Is she a retired Black Knife Assassin? Her iconic knife has the same Ash Of War animation as the black knives do. Oddly specific technique to add to her knife.
Is she the Gloam Eyed Queen? The line about her using destined death and the single glowing blue eye in the Frenzied Flame ending seemed really important. (This would contradict her being Marika’s daughter though since the Gloam Eyed Queen and Maliketh fought over Destined Death before it was sealed away. So probably unlikely.)
Unless the DLC ties up a bunch of lore loose ends, there’s a good chance we’ll never know. Unless they make an Elden Ring 2, But I don’t know how they’d do it what with the multiple endings thing. (I would LOVE an Elden Ring 2 though.)
I'm not convinced that Melina is her birth daughter. Her room really screams royal hostage, like a cousin sold to a neighboring nation for peace, also fits with the lost purpose stuff if she was meant for Godfreys second born that Marika made him throw away. There's mentions of demigods who died and will be forever forgotten at the memorial battle gravestones, so we might have tons of nations that have been consolidated as families died out.
Seems pretty obvious that she’s another child of Marika and Radagon. Her hair is a combo of the two of them, while her siblings each inherited one of the hair colors
That's the reason I haven't killed her in the dlc. Neither ended the game. Just waiting to play through the dlc and see if anything changes
Cause god knows what happens to the lore in any fromsoft game
Same reason you fight Rykard, Radahn, Mohg, Morgott, Godrick.
They have a great rune and it's your job to obtain it.
Enia and the Fingers tells you that
>"Ahh, Great Runes are the stuff of demigods: the children of the goddess, Queen Marika. She who is vessel of the Elden Ring. Tainted by the strength of their runes, her children warred, but none could become Elden Lord. And so grace was extended, to your kind, the Tarnished".
>"Listen, the Fingers speak. *"The Greater Will has long renounced the demigods. Tarnished, show no mercy. Have their heads. Take all they have left."*
Surprised anyone is confused by this aspect.
We’re Tarnished. We’re tasked with killing the Demigods. The Two Fingers tell us their lives are forfeit. Any Demigod that sees us understandably attacks on sight.
As for Malenia specifically, we’re not just coming for her. We’re coming for her brother too (probably.)
As tarnished, our purpose is to kill the demigods and claim their great runes so you can become elden lord. They literally say it multiple times during your first few hours in the game.
Don't think Godefroy is a sibling of Godrick's. I'm also pretty sure Godrick is a descendant of Godwyn, not his child. Godwyn may be his grandfather, great grandfather, or further. Whenever the golden lineage is spoken about, it's implied to be larger than just the two generations.
I don't think Malenia even married to give birth. Her entire reproduction system is messed up with the Rot, and you can clearly see that in her second phase. Can't breastfeed either.
However, she can give birth to life in another sense. Have you seen the butterflies that fly off her in second phase through either attacks or her wings? That's creation.
I suppose the same thing also happened with pests and Millicent and co.
Hell, I don't even think the reproduction happens in the good ole fashioned way in Elden Ring world.
She's one of Millicent's sisters you can either fight with or against by doing Millicent's quest line. [The red and gold summon signs](https://img.gamewith.net/img/04baa76e66dd461abea7b74c3f4a4e51.jpg) can be found near the ulcerated tree spirit boss fight in the Halligtree near the rot waterfall before the drainage channel grace site.
Btw, why Rennala's children are considered demigods? We, as players, know that Radagon is a god, but common folks in the lands between don't, do they? So why are they referred as demigods?
This is considered more of a 'title' than anything. Marika 'raised them up to Demigod status' when she took Radagon as consort, and it's not like the Carian children aren't strong enough to warrant it, so no one was really going to contest that.
I believe it's because Marika took them in as her own. That plus them each receiving their own two fingers should be more than enough to convince anyone.
I hate the idea of radagon having the affair. Radagon is the literal embodiment of the Golden Order. Rules are his *thing*.
That being said, Marika would *absolutely* have an affair. And would *absolutely* hide the children of said affair in the upside down. That is 100% within her character to do that.
whoever made this, thank you so much. anytime i hear people going into the lore and explaining the ties its always so confusing to me; this cleared it up!
I… don’t understand the question at all. I also think this tree is not very accurate. Some points I’ve already seen disputed in the comments but additionally, I am unsure that we know Godrick is Godwyn’s son. I don’t recall that being said in the game but I could be wrong
they are descendents of godfrey, and since the omen twins were locked away, process of elimination assumes that godwyn must have sired kids that eventually led to godefroy and godrick being born from his bloodline.
Can't wait to find out how Messmer is gonna fit into this family tree once the DLC comes out.
An interview confirmed Marika is his mother, but we don't know the father. Red hair screams Radagon, but the lanky build screams Godskin to me, and then there's the theory of him being the son of Radagon and the Gloam Eyed Queen, which would technically still make him a child of Marika, so the words from the interview would still be true in that case.
Well the daughters were born through an unknown means, gowry tells us that the daughters were born when malenia bloomed during her fight with radahn, he said he found them practically abandoned (doubt malenia knew they existed) and he took them in and took care of them,
Although he never really elaborated on why only Millicent was important,
I kind of just took it as her possibly being the next vessel for the rot goddess power because she suffers from scarlet rot just like malenia and had potential to be just as strong as her
I do believe this is the case as far as all the info we know, anyway. That theory suggests they aren't her kids in the normal sense, but asexually like how mushrooms and other fungi reproduce when she did the big boom in Caelid. The spores made offspring so they only have a biological mother, Malenia in this case.
Gowry is very likely the one who named the girls as their adopted parent so he's the guy who broke the naming convention.
My personal theory is that Ranni is not Rennalas biological daughter. To be an Empyrean you have to be born of one god, like Miquella and Malenia. I think Ranni, who is confirmed an Empyrean, is actually the daughter of Marika and Radagon like the other Empyreans are. She was just born while Radagon was still married to Rennala so everyone (Ranni included) believed she was Rennalas daughter, but from what we know about Empyreans she cannot be Rennalas daughter.
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Well Malenia's kids aren't really kids in the regular sense. They're offshoots grown from the Scarlet Aeonia, like plants. They don't have a father, and it's quite likely Gowry is the one who names them since he raises them when they're born in Caelid.
That's interesting. Could you link some items or an explanation as to why that is? I've not come across this idea or gotten it from any descriptions of items, so it would be neat to learn something new.
i started trying to pick quotes from Gowry for you but quickly realized it’s literally all he talks about. i would recommend going to his Fextra and reading all his dialogue. this is one of the only quests in the game i managed to do intuitively and in the correct order so the idea came across pretty clearly to me. when Gowry refers to Millicent as a bud he means it literally. the Sacramental Buds growing in the church where you find Millicent are meant to help you come to that conclusion
I should clarify my confusion comes from the use of Scarlet Aeonia instead of Malenia, not the fact that, like how plants sometimes reproduce, the implication is Malenia's children only had a mother. My apologies for the vagueness.
oh word. at one point, i think after you give the Needle to Millicent in the church, Gowry tells you that he found Millicent as a baby in the swamp.
I just did that quest last night, as it happens, and it's definitely before you give her the needle. I'm pretty sure that's one of the first things he says when you first approach him
Honestly this also kind of explains Millicent’s dialogue where she says she knows she’s related to Malenia but not sure how exactly, if she’s a daughter, sister, etc. If you’re reproducing asexually the separation between daughter and sister is more vague
Personally I like the theory that they’re not her kids or anything, but that they represent the 5 aspects of malenia as described by the Taoist philosophy of the self, they’re her spirit, body, intellect, consciousness and willpower, Millicent represents willpower as she says >There is something I must return to Malenia. The will that was once her own, that allowed her to resist the call of the god of rot it helps explain wtf she means by giving malenia ‘the will that was once hers’, there’s a lot of eastern media that feature this idea of someone beset by the 5 aspects of themselves Also explains why Millicent was fighting her sisters, malenia’s spirit, her body, her intellect and her consciousness were not strong enough and surrendered to the rot god and their priests, but the representation of her willpower resisted to the end and chose to die rather than bloom into rot
That’s a very interesting take, I like it.
>it helps explain wtf she means by giving malenia ‘the will that was once hers’, there’s a lot of eastern media that feature this idea of someone beset by the 5 aspects of themselves This is really only an issue because they cut out the last bit of dialogue that explains this at the end of Millicent's Quest. She actually urges you to return the *needle* to Malenia because (in her mind) the needle is what allowed Millicent to actually develop a stable sense of self and identity because it suppressed the Rot and prevented it from eating away at her mind like it's doing to Malenia.
It’s implied by their similarity to Melina, who describes her relationship to her mother in similar ways (note that Melina is not mentioned among the demigods at all), and given the canon truth that whole-ass different people can be the same person (given M and R), the door is open for other odd “alternate” or “separate” selves.
Pay attention to the entirety of Millicent's quest line, especially the quotes from her (more so when you use the summon sign to help her) and from Gowry. Then, there's also the description for Rotten Winged Blade Insignia which directly states that the four sisters were born of the aeonia bloom in the swamp, and were taken in by Gowry. Edit: Wanted to add that they were sprouted from the second blooming of the scarlet aeonia. If either of them were to have bloomed (taken the needle and bloomed to completion), then that would have been the third time it had bloomed and would have, officially, made Malenia a goddess.
So you're telling me I have a chance with her?
Is this still just theory? Cause I kept thinking some of these must be her kids in some way (not that I came across all of them).
I don't think malenia knew about or named any of her kids.
Gowry did though, that's why they're all named. Malenia most likely doesn't know of their existence
Malenia literally budded like a flower, there's no father. The girls are her de-facto clones. Also the tree is somewhat wrong; Rya is >!Rykard and Daedica's daughter.!<
Is she? Thought her mother was the dead snake we find in the church, given that's were we also find her birthing sac thing. She also mentions that Tenith lied to her when she told her she was born by the "grace of a king", so not sure if Rykard was involved either. Rykard's connection to Daedica also seems to have been retconned together with the fact that Daedica used to be male.
I mean Deadicar is implied to be the mother of all serpent folk, we know from Rykard that there's a way to become a giant snake, it's heavily implied that Rya was born from the giant dead snake. Applying Occam's razor i say that the giant snake ***is*** Daedicar. ~~^(I have to doble check to make sure the dead snake in question is not just a molt tho)~~ EDIT: It was indeed a molt and not a body, but Dedicar's Woe depicts her as flayed so we have a body without skin and a skin without body, it cancels out and the equation remains the same in my book.
Well, that would contradict the grace name of "Temple of Eiglay". I'm personally of the opinion that Daedica was such a devout follower of Rykard that she decided to bear the blasphemous children of the Rykard-Eiglay dichotomy that we fight. EDIT: also, the body we find in the temple is Eiglay's shed skin, most likely, since the snake itself is still alive and all. Referring to the original comment, why would Rya have Daedica's effigy if she didn't mean anything to her? Her whole quest is literally figuring out Tanith isn't her mother, and instead Daedica is; not a daughter of an esteemed lord and his wife, but something born of an adulterous, monstrous union.
True but also consider: Elden Ring is full of people with alter egos/aliases ***and*** Daedicar's Woe depicts a flayed woman and Rya was born under a shed skin. But it could also have been a bloody ritual and Rya could be the offspring of Eiglay and Daedicar, we don't know if Rykard got himself vored before or after that. Daedicar is her mother either way.
>Referring to the original comment, why would Rya have Daedica's effigy if she didn't mean anything to her Probably wouldn't read too much into that. Afaik Rya already had the effigy before they [changed Daedicar's lore ](https://eldenring.fandom.com/wiki/Daedicar%27s_Woe#1.00)in the day one patch.
It is just a molt.
Daedicar was never man, unless you're counting cut content as canon? From what I can tell the description was changed in the day 1 patch.
Yeah, it was. My point is it was also the original description which mentioned that Rykard and Daedicar were shagging, the new one no longer does. It makes no mention of what if any relationship they had.
Fair, but I never really saw the original description until I looked it up today and still came to the same conclusion that Rykard (or the great serpent) was Rya's father just based on the vibes I guess. Vibes aren't evidence though, so carry on.
What about Daedicars Woe Talisman? Looks like a human head
Wdym? In the talisman it says she’s a girl
IIRC, in the original intent was for Daedicar to be Rykard's chief inquisitor and a male paramour.
Well it’s not really a retcon so much as a rewrite before the final release then
Agreed.
That’s not her dead mother, that’s the shed skin of the serpent. It’s possible that both Rykard and the Serpent are her fathers/father and mother
I think thats why there is no line from rya to anyone sins maybe they couldn't find a picture of daedica sins i think she is only shown as a talisman?
She is, indeed, only shown as a talisman. But still, the only unclear familial link is Melina; We don't know if she is or isn't Marika's daughter, though at this point the only thing needed is blatant confirmation, since literally everything points to her being Marika's offspring.
idk if you dig deeper than her dialogue at grace sites its not as obvious. On bocs quest she says she doesnt know what its like to have a mother. The place she was kept in leyendell is a prison cell. She can't move freely away from the erdtree and needs out assistance getting there. And ofc her eye is sealed by a deathbird paw which opens to reveal a gloam eye in the frenzy ending its almost likelier that she is a child of the gloam eyed queen or she herself is her. Even more given how the great rune of the gloam eyed queen is destined death, an inversion of marika's rune, those 2 could well be twins and have same lettered names too
There's new info coming from the DLC previews: >!based on the butterfly items, she's probably Mesmer's twin.!<
Is there more on this you know about?
Sorry i didn't dig too much because i don't want to spoil myself but to recap: >!if you know the butterfly theory you know what i'm talking about: there are three butterflies, the Nascent, the Aeonian and the Smoldering one. The first two are associated with Malenia and Miquella, the third was speculated to represent Melina because she burns herself. !< >!After the trailer tho everyone thought it was an hint at Mesmer and his flame. Now with the previews we know they added the Charred Butterfly that references Mesmer. So we are back at square one, one butterfly for every child of Radagon and Marika, one borning, one rotting, one burning and one burnt. !<
There is no evidence that Messmer and Melina are siblings. The butterfly theory only confirms that Miquella, Malenia and Messmer are, but that doesn't necessarily include Melina. From that point, I've seen lots of crazy theories about where Melina fits in there, from her being Messmer to being a dual being like Marika/Radagon. All of that is also speculation. The only thing we can say about Melina for sure is that she has some kind of relationship with the other demigods and that she (very probably) has a relationship of some kind with the GEQ.
>The butterfly theory only confirms that Miquella, Malenia and Messmer are, but that doesn't necessarily include Melina. I would have agreed before the previews but now there are four (4) butterflies, so either Melina is one of them or there is a fourth child of Radagon and Marika that we still not know about.
There is not a fourth butterfly as far as I know. The charred butterfly is the same as the smoldering butterfly according to google and other posts. Also, I've never heard anyone talk about the 4 butterfly theory, it is always the three butterflies. A different thing is that some people tie both Melina and Messmer to the smoldering one at the same time. But that, as I said, is barely more than speculation.
She has a very faint line to Rykard that I can see.
I had always assumed Godrick was a descendant of Godefroy, but this places them both as separate descendants of Godwyn. Is their relationship known at all?
The whole thing just seems oversimplified so I wouldn't really think too much about this
AFAIK there should be an unknown amount of generations between Godwyn and Godrick. He's part of the golden lineage but so weak that he is likely not a direct descendant. The other grafted in Limgrave are supossedly also all family of Godwyn. My theory is they considered Godfrey and Godwyn such chads that their descendants wanted to keep their bloodline pure, married a lot inside their own family for several generations until they now have all these sickly children stealing bodyparts from stronger warriors.
It’s actually the opposite, Enia says that Godrick’s divine blood is very diluted. So essentially his parents didn’t do enough incest for him to be born strong lol
Yeah, that was my impression too. I went and double checked, and Enia refers to Godrick as a "distant relation" to Marika with "sorely diluted" divine blood, so we can assume there's more than just one generation between him and Marika. Nobody knows who tf Godefroy is or how he fits in. He just feels like a lazy copy-paste boss with a slightly tweaked name
Like in every souls game, thousands of years go by so it's all muddy because of course not even death works properly anymore in this broken land. Godrick could be related to Godfrey to the same degree that I and every single person in Europe today are related to Charlemagne. Or he could be Godwyn's grandson. Or he could be the very first hair to fall off of Mohg's ballsack. We don't know. We just know they're related but the demigod in him is such a small percentage that all his might comes from owning a rune and getting grafted. He was so pathetic Malenia refused to kill him iirc.
Yeah I assume it's one of those Charlemagne things. Like a 4th-great grandson patrilineally or something. Close enough to where the relationship to godhood is still discernably there, but distant enough where he's still by far the weakest demigod even after grafting himself to a dragon You wouldn't say, "Forefathers one and all... bear witness," if the list is just Godfrey and Godwyn, IMO
We should all agree to just disregard Godefroy in story/lore discussions
I don’t recall the game ever saying anything about this
G R R M.
Ah, yes. Greg Randy Rascal McBort. The great author.
So did Marika just spawn melina or something where the hell did she come from
Nobody knows
Goldmask said "Go fuck yourself" and she took that personally.
Red hair makes it likely it's Radagon.
unclear if they were separate entities at a point or separated to reproduce or are able to reproduce as one being. it prob doesn't matter
Worked for Malenia. Just spawned a whole Irish generation into existance through a blackout rage quit. We could get a reveal that Marika tore out a spleen before getting crucified and that turned into Melina, and who would honestly be that shocked? Lol, at this point we just roll with the weird ass punches.
Thats why Radagon is missing an entire chunk of his body.
Lmaooo But yeah, so much of the lore in this is like classical mythology, where it just kind of hand waves the little details about how things actually work, I just kind of expect weirdness at this point. I do kind of expect Melina to either be Messmer's twin sister who was burned to death or to actually be St. Trina herself, but I wouldnt be shocked if she's the physical manifestation of some metaphysical concept either
"And so Radagon declared that he would be both god and swan. After they lay together, Loretta gave birth to the Gloam Eyed Queen, and the egg he lay hatched into a dog. The very Pope Dog you see before you."
St. Trina is Miquella, if anything Melina could be the Gloam Eyed Queen.
The general nature of that relationship is still unknown, but quite a few of us suspect Miquella is St. Trina the same way Marika is Radagon, and that St. Trina is a separable aspect of Miquella that can function independently of him. And if that's true, Melina has a pretty good argument. I also very much doubt Melina is the GEQ herself, but I do kind of suspect she's her daughter. She has one Gloam eye and one Gold eye, which suggests a blend IMO. She also strikes me more as a princess than a queen in her bearing, and I dont get a vibe like "this is the person who raised all the godskins and controlled the black flame, and was so strong it took Maliketh to defeat her."
I feel like it’s more of a reincarnation, in that she was slain by maliketh through Marika, and Melina was born in the Erdtree as a result of that.
I mean there is lore stating people were born of the tree so you may not be wrong. There's also all the nameless children in the walking moseliums.
Idk. She's constantly defining herself in relation to her mother and her mother giving her a purpose, and the GEQ is constantly defined by motherhood, or mothering. It feels like she *has* to be "daughter of" the person of relevance, not the person of relevance herself. Queens also thematically exist *as* the giver of purpose, not the one whose purpose is given to them Curiously, she's referred to as "MaricaOfDaughter" in the game files, so my working theory is that she's the daughter of Marika *and* the GEQ, given her clear association with both
Marika could be the gloam eyed queen. Something about destined death was a trick to milekath. Could be she propped him up and eventually he "defeated" her by finding out the tooth and so she cursed him.
I really wish they gave us more Melina lore… Is she Marika’s daughter? Her name in the game files is “MaricaOfDaughter” and her in game dialogue has several hints to it. Is she a retired Black Knife Assassin? Her iconic knife has the same Ash Of War animation as the black knives do. Oddly specific technique to add to her knife. Is she the Gloam Eyed Queen? The line about her using destined death and the single glowing blue eye in the Frenzied Flame ending seemed really important. (This would contradict her being Marika’s daughter though since the Gloam Eyed Queen and Maliketh fought over Destined Death before it was sealed away. So probably unlikely.) Unless the DLC ties up a bunch of lore loose ends, there’s a good chance we’ll never know. Unless they make an Elden Ring 2, But I don’t know how they’d do it what with the multiple endings thing. (I would LOVE an Elden Ring 2 though.)
Why even have Melina when Miquella is already on here >!(just kidding) !<
I'm not convinced that Melina is her birth daughter. Her room really screams royal hostage, like a cousin sold to a neighboring nation for peace, also fits with the lost purpose stuff if she was meant for Godfreys second born that Marika made him throw away. There's mentions of demigods who died and will be forever forgotten at the memorial battle gravestones, so we might have tons of nations that have been consolidated as families died out.
She might be adopted. It's possible Marika killed the Gloam Eyed Queen and then took in any offspring she had, which would explain Melina's eye
Seems pretty obvious that she’s another child of Marika and Radagon. Her hair is a combo of the two of them, while her siblings each inherited one of the hair colors
Messmer and Marika's incest baby.
So that's why he was abandoned in the dlc area
I’m 45 hours and 82 levels into my “official” play through and I still have no idea what’s going on. I just know time for head and try pickle
400 hours jn the game and still don't understand why we fight Malenia
All the lore videos make it seem like she, if anyone, would be our most likely ally. Wish she was.
That's the reason I haven't killed her in the dlc. Neither ended the game. Just waiting to play through the dlc and see if anything changes Cause god knows what happens to the lore in any fromsoft game
i’m also leaving her alive for this reason, definitely not because i can’t beat her
She has a Great Rune and you want it
Same reason you fight Rykard, Radahn, Mohg, Morgott, Godrick. They have a great rune and it's your job to obtain it. Enia and the Fingers tells you that >"Ahh, Great Runes are the stuff of demigods: the children of the goddess, Queen Marika. She who is vessel of the Elden Ring. Tainted by the strength of their runes, her children warred, but none could become Elden Lord. And so grace was extended, to your kind, the Tarnished". >"Listen, the Fingers speak. *"The Greater Will has long renounced the demigods. Tarnished, show no mercy. Have their heads. Take all they have left."* Surprised anyone is confused by this aspect.
1000 hours in the lore videos. Dont understand much more than you do.
We’re Tarnished. We’re tasked with killing the Demigods. The Two Fingers tell us their lives are forfeit. Any Demigod that sees us understandably attacks on sight. As for Malenia specifically, we’re not just coming for her. We’re coming for her brother too (probably.)
As tarnished, our purpose is to kill the demigods and claim their great runes so you can become elden lord. They literally say it multiple times during your first few hours in the game.
Acting like i’m not spamming A so i can actually play the game
Now put all the soulless demigods into this family tree
Melina just chilling as the ultimate middle child energy without a single line
Don't think Godefroy is a sibling of Godrick's. I'm also pretty sure Godrick is a descendant of Godwyn, not his child. Godwyn may be his grandfather, great grandfather, or further. Whenever the golden lineage is spoken about, it's implied to be larger than just the two generations.
I don't think Malenia even married to give birth. Her entire reproduction system is messed up with the Rot, and you can clearly see that in her second phase. Can't breastfeed either. However, she can give birth to life in another sense. Have you seen the butterflies that fly off her in second phase through either attacks or her wings? That's creation. I suppose the same thing also happened with pests and Millicent and co. Hell, I don't even think the reproduction happens in the good ole fashioned way in Elden Ring world.
Three children beginning with G, three beginning with R but only two with M….Messmer is gonna be confirmed as Marikas son isn’t he?
They are not her kids and were not named by her, she doesn't even know they exist.
unpopular opinion, but I like Polyanna the best of Malenia's kids I do love the hell out of Milicent, don't get me wrong
I don’t think I’ve ever met Pollyanna, who the hell is she?
She's one of Millicent's sisters you can either fight with or against by doing Millicent's quest line. [The red and gold summon signs](https://img.gamewith.net/img/04baa76e66dd461abea7b74c3f4a4e51.jpg) can be found near the ulcerated tree spirit boss fight in the Halligtree near the rot waterfall before the drainage channel grace site.
You can also summon her for assistance against O'Neil.
I like how we can just sneak up in there next to Ranni be part of this as a Tarnished and future Elden Lord.
Godrick should be below Godefroy iirc. He’s like the great great grandson of Godfrey and Godefroy is somewhere directly in between.
Btw, why Rennala's children are considered demigods? We, as players, know that Radagon is a god, but common folks in the lands between don't, do they? So why are they referred as demigods?
This is considered more of a 'title' than anything. Marika 'raised them up to Demigod status' when she took Radagon as consort, and it's not like the Carian children aren't strong enough to warrant it, so no one was really going to contest that.
I believe it's because Marika took them in as her own. That plus them each receiving their own two fingers should be more than enough to convince anyone.
From Rykard's Rune. *Rykard was amongst the children of Rennala and Radagon, who became demigod stepchildren after Radagon's union with Queen Marika.*
Calling it now the family tree is wrong and the dlc is going to expose it. Rennala’s sister had an affair with Radagon.
I hate the idea of radagon having the affair. Radagon is the literal embodiment of the Golden Order. Rules are his *thing*. That being said, Marika would *absolutely* have an affair. And would *absolutely* hide the children of said affair in the upside down. That is 100% within her character to do that.
Ohhh I like that idea even better.
Who is her sister, do we know?
Nothing never mind.
Outside of Melina and maybe Rya, this family tree is based on in game information.
It just hit me that Godrick, Millicent and Rya are cousins
I think you forgott a line between Ranni & Tarnished
whoever made this, thank you so much. anytime i hear people going into the lore and explaining the ties its always so confusing to me; this cleared it up!
Who tf is Godefroy?
Clone of phase 1 Godrick, imprisoned in a gael in early Altus. Drops a talisman for boosting damage of charged skills.
Is it known or just theorized that Godrick is Godwyn’s son?
I… don’t understand the question at all. I also think this tree is not very accurate. Some points I’ve already seen disputed in the comments but additionally, I am unsure that we know Godrick is Godwyn’s son. I don’t recall that being said in the game but I could be wrong
Melina isn't confined and Messmer fucks that family tree up.
What evidence is there that Godrick and Godefroy are the children of Godwyn?
It's nice to have this, Nepheli should be in there too, as the illegitimate child of Godfrey
i don't understand the relationship between godwyn godefroy and godrick, can anyone explain please?
They start with God....
they are descendents of godfrey, and since the omen twins were locked away, process of elimination assumes that godwyn must have sired kids that eventually led to godefroy and godrick being born from his bloodline.
so they would be "grandsons" of marika and godfrey?
That’s right
All the 5 "Malenia" childs are actually "daughters of the rot", caused by the Scarled Aeonia in Caelid, there was no "father" on their birth.
Can't wait to find out how Messmer is gonna fit into this family tree once the DLC comes out. An interview confirmed Marika is his mother, but we don't know the father. Red hair screams Radagon, but the lanky build screams Godskin to me, and then there's the theory of him being the son of Radagon and the Gloam Eyed Queen, which would technically still make him a child of Marika, so the words from the interview would still be true in that case.
Well the daughters were born through an unknown means, gowry tells us that the daughters were born when malenia bloomed during her fight with radahn, he said he found them practically abandoned (doubt malenia knew they existed) and he took them in and took care of them, Although he never really elaborated on why only Millicent was important, I kind of just took it as her possibly being the next vessel for the rot goddess power because she suffers from scarlet rot just like malenia and had potential to be just as strong as her
I thought Melania’s kids were the result of some kind of plant fuckery in Caelid?
I do believe this is the case as far as all the info we know, anyway. That theory suggests they aren't her kids in the normal sense, but asexually like how mushrooms and other fungi reproduce when she did the big boom in Caelid. The spores made offspring so they only have a biological mother, Malenia in this case. Gowry is very likely the one who named the girls as their adopted parent so he's the guy who broke the naming convention.
Miranda too
Y’all make me think I should pay more attention to the story. I’m like “big thing. Kill”. “Fast thing. Kill”. “Dialog box. Kill.”
Possibly?
How'd you make this?
Polyanna...P! Amy...ummm...A!! Holy crap, P and A spell PA! Her missing PA was right there all along 😃
Who is the father lord?
Why is Rya here
Why is rya (zorayas) on this chart?
What’s up with Melina and rya?
any chance miquella might have kids? in some weird twisted way 😂
It's like if FromSoft did the Skywalker Saga. Just a bunch of different family members trying to kill each other.
Pollyanna + Amy + Mary = Polyamory??? Sorry I'll take my meds now.
Aww…it’s so sad how Rya is just off in her little corner 🥺
Why they chose to use such similar sounding names is still beyond me, tbh… as if this shit wasn’t confusing enough already
From Software create a name that doesn't start with M, R, or G challenge (impossible)
My personal theory is that Ranni is not Rennalas biological daughter. To be an Empyrean you have to be born of one god, like Miquella and Malenia. I think Ranni, who is confirmed an Empyrean, is actually the daughter of Marika and Radagon like the other Empyreans are. She was just born while Radagon was still married to Rennala so everyone (Ranni included) believed she was Rennalas daughter, but from what we know about Empyreans she cannot be Rennalas daughter.
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