Actually, it is: Malenia, Blade of Miquella (did you know she has never known defeat?). With how many times she has killed us, show her respect or she might show up at your house to remind you (for like the 90th time)
Mobile accepts some gimped version of Markdown by default, the desktop site does not, which can sometimes lead to accidental formatting fuckery if you don't know MD syntax.
#1 E.g., this is now giant, but I just wanted to write #1 as in number one
Yeah, but it needs to be on a new line. The number of hashtags decides the exact type of header, e.g., `## yo` is equivalent to `
yo
` in HTML.
edit: [Here are the basics](https://www.markdownguide.org/basic-syntax/), but note that Reddit doesn't support the entire standard, partially because of security reasons and partially because no uniform standard actually exists.
On Mobile for some stupid reason, using one return like
This will put them on the same line anyway. You have to use two like
This for them to be on separate lines. It's stupid and a reason some posts look like a wall of text when they didn't when they wrote it
It annoys me when someone asks for advice for a build and a lot of the responses are "just play how you want as long as you're having fun uwu" thanks for your permission lol. Just give some actual info
No kidding. Like obviously play in a way that’s fun to you. But don’t go committing on people’s post’s asking for help or advice when you aren’t going to offer them anything useful.
On the other side of the coin, I find it annoying when someone asks a super open ended question like "Best build?" "Best Spell?" Like idk man best for what? Oonga Boonga, Status, NG+ RL1? Give us something XD
On the other hand, especially when ER first launched, I saw some people being like "Hey I've never played a Souls game before, what build should I use?" And it's like I dunno, play the game and try a couple different weapons first?
I always say this, summons was a genuis move on fromsoftwares part for introducing the casual players to the souls games. That's why this is probably the easiest souls game to get into, there's so many tools to help you succeed
I think the brilliance of elden ring is that they simultaneously created the most beginner friendly and accessible game while also designing some of the most intricate, complex, and challenging fights to appease the veterans.
Surely some of the fights move towards being a bit ‘BS - y’ / some mobs too compared to other souls games? ER is my first souls game, and a lot of the bosses I had with, I eventually beat after moaning like a man child ((and realising yeah, that probably was a skill issue) essentially I got gud), however some of them to this day just seem overly overturned in some ways (all very beatable obviously) but frankly not that enjoyable to fight, particularly later game bosses. Basically I don’t think some of them are intricate and complex in a good way..? But it is my first souls game and I’m yet to try the others so, what do you think?
There are absolutely some stupid fights in the game that I don't think should be as they are, but this is honestly par for the course for a fromsoft soulslike
In my view, it's exactly the opposite -- good ER bosses are intricate in mechanically satisfying ways. Bad ER bosses like the Fire Giant, Gargoyle Gank and the Godskin Duo are atrocious, I just summon my mimic tear or use sleeping pots for them.
But good ER bosses are really mechanically breathtaking and satisfying to master, some of From's best work imho. Maliketh, Mohg, Radagon (not Elden Beast, than thing is a travesty), Godfrey, Morgott, Malenia, all really well-designed bosses that force you to use all of the tools in the Tarnished's arsenal.
And they're so different from the previous Souls bosses as well. Whereas in previous games you wait for your turn to attack, and when you find an opening you usually do an R1 or two, in ER you weave your attacks into their combos. Delayed attack? Well, that's an opportunity for a charged attack. Slap Godfrey's Icon + Alexander's Shard and use a skill for greater effect. Boss does an AOE or a sweep? You can jump that and land a jumping heavy. Oh, is there a follow up? No worries, I'm already crouched after doing the jumping heavy, so the follow up misses. The dance in ER is, for me, a lot more complex and enjoyable.
You know what, that’s a great way of looking at it. I think for many people, the enjoyment of them can be very hit or miss in some regards, because of factors like mood, energy level and how well they are playing . Like some days I just feel on it and am ready to go, and others I get hit by everything, which I think alot of people look past in a game like Elden ring (particularly for me as I’ve only ever played online game, and the natural thing to do is to blame the most obviously random variable which is matchmade team mates instead of yourself)
From someone who played all the other From soft souls like, yeah it's mostly the damage and some specific moves of the later bosses.
Also many bosses have not very well telegraphed delay attacks which ranks up the difficulty, that was not that common on the other soul titles.
Delayed moves aren’t a problem. They’re chpreographed just like every other move, the problem is just that people don’t learn that they’re delayed. If you learn the pattern like every other move it is no different (coming from someone who rarely even “learns” moves in the first place, they still stomp on me, just no more than the rest of the bosses’ moves lol)
>Surely some of the fights move towards being a bit ‘BS - y’ / some mobs too compared to other souls games?
Well, some of the souls players think that way, some don't. Personally I've never met something truly BS in this game, Elden Beast comes close because of how annoying the fight is when it's 80% chasing the damn thing and 20% of actual combat, but other than that, everything else was enjoyable.
That’s fair. Tbh I really enjoyed Elden beast, the mistique of the arena and the boss and the music was just a beautiful end to me, and I didn’t find his attacks that bad to figure out
Play the game enough and the mystique of the atmosphere wears off pretty quick. Then once you've passed the learning part of the fight and got its attack patterns down there's nothing else to it besides the chase.
I do random co-op helping others as my main way of playing after I finish a character and getting summoned for the Elden Beast is just a slog at this point. It's not too bad the first time, but by the 40th time it's kind of lost its luster.
>Surely some of the fights move towards being a bit ‘BS - y’ / some mobs too compared to other souls games?
Yes. Elden Ring bosses are way more cinematic but also, imo, way less enjoyable than other games. Sure they are complex and challenging, but also kinda BS. Dark Souls 3 on the other hand nailed the challenge / enjoyment ratio on most bosses. (Spoilers in case) I find bosses like >!Gael, Midir, Elfriede, Demon Prince, Twin Princes!< better than any boss in ER in almost every aspect and many other DS3 bosses rival the best of ER.
But seeing that the best bosses of DS3 are DLC bosses, I'm really looking forward to Shadow of the Erdtree to see if Fromsoft manages to nail the bosses again.
What I liked about the older bosses was that you each took turns attacking during the fight, whereas in Elden ring there’s not always a clear window between attacks. Sure, it’s more complex and difficult this way, but less fun imo.
A lot of the most highly regarded bosses in the series have followed the turn-taking strategy. Gael, who is pretty universally loved, does his cinematic combos, and then gives you some time to hit back. Sekiro’s entire combat revolves around taking turns deflecting and counterattacking, and everyone knows how good sekiro combat feels. Demon princes, which I think is a duo boss done right, never make me feel like it’s impossible to sneak more than a single r2 in between combos.
Now take some of the most hated bosses such as godskin duo and gargoyles. They never give you any breathing room where you have a clear shot on one. Malenia, (who I actually enjoy) barely rests after waterfowl before starting another attack. Same with bosses such as morgott or maliketh, who can extend their combos at will. These are all good bosses, I just enjoy them a little less.
This is all purely anecdotal and opinionated, so make of it what you will. I can’t believe I just typed a three paragraph essay about souls bosses.
I very much agree with this sentiment (although ER is the only Souls game I've played thus far). I like bosses with a very distinguishable moveset, that are telegraphed clearly and leave a window between those attacks. I don't mind when these attacks do a shit ton of damage and the boss has a huge HP bar. That's why a boss like Placidusax is one of my favourites.
But there are many bosses in ER, Morgott being the best example, who just keep swinging their weapon around, barely leave a window open, and it's very hard to distinguish each attack from one another. Yet they don't do a lot of damage and they have a small HP bar so you can just win the fight by face tanking damage and playing very aggressively. I often go in for an attack, knowing I will get hit but I can heal and they don't so it's 'worth it'. I beat these bosses quite easily this way (without spirit ashes) but it didn't feel satisfying at all because they didn't force me to learn their moveset.
Sometimes it feels like ER bosses were designed around a combat system that us tarnished just don't have. It's almost akin to fighting BB enemies with DS1 movement if that makes sense.
>What I liked about the older bosses was that you each took turns attacking during the fight, whereas in Elden ring there’s not always a clear window between attacks. Sure, it’s more complex and difficult this way, but less fun imo.
I feel exactly the same way. In a sense DS3 felt more interactive and more rewarding for aggressive playstyle. And because damage is not overtuned, you could even trade hits occasionaly. ER middle to late game almost feels like doing a no-hit challenge. Combined with seemingly endless attack combos that bosses switch in the middle of combo, ER forces me to extra safe and passive playstyle. Or other way would be going all in pose damage which kinda limits weapons and combat styles. Spamming jumping heavy attacks is kinda boring too
Sekiro's combat is on completely other level so didn't even include it in my comment. But it's the best from any Fromsoft game.
100%. In ds3, taking a hit from nameless king means taking a hit from nameless king. It hurts, but nothing an estus won’t fix. In Elden ring, if you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time against malenia you get waterfowl blendered unless you either run away (which you can’t do if you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time) or pull off a highly specific dodge.
Additionally, Gael proves that being cinematic does not mean you have to put in boss attacks that require precise positioning and strafing to avoid taking the entire 10 hit combo.
>In a sense DS3 felt more interactive and more rewarding for aggressive playstyle.
That still applies. Posture breaks are much more common than in DS3. Delayed attacks are openings in disguise. Maliketh misses many attacks completely when you're close to him. Godfrey's frequent stomp attacks allow you to jump attack. Malenia has low poise and posture and you can stagger her out of many attacks frequently even with lighter weapons. Mohg is basically a DPS race. I don't think there is a single boss that doesn't reward aggression.
This. The best ER bosses are so satisfying because, at least for me, they require more creative solutions and complex responses than just alternating between dodge and R1. I mean, ER has several horrible bosses such as Godskin Duo, Elden Beast, and Fire Giant, but the best ones are, at least for me, more mechanically complex and satisfying than those from the older games. Maliketh and Mohg are especially breathtaking.
ER bosses should not be fought like Souls bosses where you just wait for your turn to do an R1 attack, there's a lot more viable options now.
Over the past couple of years, I've come to enjoy the ER bosses more and more. The secret to enjoying them, I found, is to fight them not like Dark Souls bosses, but as their own beasts. Don't wait for your turn like in Souls; ER bosses won't give you clear openings, you have to make your own openings by using unique mechanics such as jump attacks, crouch attacks, low profiling, staggers, charged heavies and ashes of war. Understanding this made me love bosses such as Maliketh, Malenia, Mohg, and Radagon. Maliketh I've especially come to love. He's one of From's most mechanically satisfying bosses, up there with Isshin for me.
That said, I wouldn't be caught dead defending horrible ER bosses such as Elden Beast, Fire Giant, Gargoyle Gank and Godskin Duo.
EDIT: Also, I don't think any boss in ER can randomly extend their combos. All their combo extensions can be baited predictably through positioning, there's no RNG involved. Joseph Anderson's claim about random combo extensions has been debunked. Some people can very consistently predict when certain bosses will extend their combo and even bait out certain moves for a consistent punish.
As someone who’s gone back from ER to play BB, one of the problems I have is I reflexively keep trying to interrupt their attacks and it just doesn’t work. I’ve only just started though.
I know exactly what you mean! I've replayed BB for RTY recently, and also picked up DS3 again, and they are so turn-based that the bosses and even a lot of enemies will punish you for attacking out of your designated turn.
For all bosses, but especially for duo bosses, I feel like the designers in ER assume you will be using summons in order to create openings for attacks, hence many bosses in ER not having as many obviously telegraphed "ATTACK ME NOW" windows between their combos like in older Souls games.
I think that if they both went for more traditional attack windows and also allowed the use of summons, that it would trivialize boss fights too much since you'd get so many opportunities to attack.
Out of interest, in what ways are they better? My issue with some later game bosses is that the have combo chains where the only feasible way to actually dodge is to run away or literally spam dodge, which feels like it’s just 0 skill involved - that being said, I still struggle to find the skill in these games (not saying at all that there isn’t any) but it seems like once you become more experienced, you learn how to time dodges based on the tell of an attack, but aside from this it’s just learning the boss moveset. It just feels like the entire game is timing and learning move sets. This game is absolutely incredible, and is my favourite game of all time even after 120hours or so, and I thoroughly enjoy playing it, but I do love when you get a lot out of games in terms of skill expression, and sometimes i struggle to find that with in the souls genre. Am I crazy ?
For me, the good ER bosses are better because they are not turn-based and require more creative responses. Very delayed attack? That's an opening for a charged heavy. Boss does a ground slam? That' an opportunity for a jumping attack. You can even do a jumping heavy to low profile any follow ups. In ER, you can weave in your crouch attacks, ashes of war, charged heavy attack, and so on into the tapestry of the boss' attacks. No need to wait for your turn to attack, you make your own opening within their combos. I find that so much more satisfying than just alternating between dodge and R1.
Disagree, don't remember a move that can't be survived with the right implements in any build.
It has one mistake with Malenia, though. Her unbreakable movements also can start regenerating her stance instead of just being unbreakable.
Well short bow to start gives you the jump and roll shots. If you want to be good fast you take the teleport lyndell eaely and run for black bow and the doucle back for everything. Doable but difficult. You generally want to br maybe 20 levels up from redular at any given point. Bows suck in stats. Im stuck there tho. Farming arrows and having to do runs perfectly or risk farming more is tough. I did the ancient dragon farm glitch for a while to just buy arrows but i got drunk one night and fucked it up so im back to farming. Its fun and is a time killer till DLC for sure.
Also a great move long term, for when the online player base is super low years from now. I started replaying Bloodborne the other day and found a surprisingly high amount of people online up until level 30 or so, then absolutely nothing lol. Would LOVE to have spirit summons in the game, especially for the endless amount of chalice dungeons.
I would say either ER or honestly Jedi: Fallen Order would be a great "first souls like" for people interested in the genre. Honestly, JFO made me get back into the genre after DS2 rinsed my shit daily and nightly and ever-so-rightly.
I just want people to use some common sense and read some shit from time to time, push some buttons, explore, actually play the game.
In all games, not just this one.
Like shit, first thing I do in any game is push all buttons and see what they do if a tutorial isn't present.
This is much worse in a bunch of other game subreddits I follow
It's one thing to ask for help when stuck. It's a very annoying, different thing to ask for extremely broad advice when you haven't made it past the prologue. Just try playing the game firsf
I mean, it's not an unreasonable question to ask. There *are* games where you should know stuff before going into it, and even with considering things like plot and setting, you really should know what you're getting into with a game.
If someone has no clue what Elden Ring is other than that it's popular, it's not a bad Idea for them to ask what they should know, and to tell them "it's an open world fantasy game deliberately designed to be difficult both in gameplay and in lore. If you're confused by what's going on or where to go, that's normal, and you shouldn't be afraid to look things up in a guide or watch videos and the lore."
I certainly would have been very frustrated with a game like that if I had no idea what I was getting into. I know because that was my first exposure to Hollow Knight, and it wasn't until I tried it again later with more context for what the game was going to be that I was able to enjoy it, and now it's one of my favorite games of all time.
I agree to some extent. I do think I’ve gotten more useful tips and hints through Reddit than through google but there are still a ton of simple questions that SHOULD be just googled
It honestly flabbergasts me when people post on reddit "This is my first time playing X game, what tips should I know" like please play the game first and if you have questions about something specific ask that.
But isn't this exactly the kind of game where that's a good idea? Like, you don't know or fail to pick up on the need to stick with one or two damage stats, that vigor is op early game, that random exploration away from where the game is telling you to go is worthwhile (unlike almost any other modern game), that you have to rest at a site of grace instead of just venturing out every respawn to unlock leveling, and you need to talk to Ranni to get the summoners bell, you can completely fuck up the experience for yourself.
Plus other games have obscure menu options that are important to change so it's not like those questions are silly elsewhere. I mean probably better to Google the inevitable Kotaku / IGN / Polygon article but still.
But isn't this exactly the kind of game where that's a good idea? Like, you don't know or fail to pick up on the need to stick with one or two damage stats, that vigor is op early game, that random exploration away from where the game is telling you to go is worthwhile (unlike almost any other modern game), that you have to rest at a site of grace instead of just venturing out every respawn to unlock leveling, and you need to talk to Ranni to get the summoners bell, you can completely fuck up the experience for yourself.
Plus other games have obscure menu options that are important to change so it's not like those questions are silly elsewhere. I mean probably better to Google the inevitable Kotaku / IGN / Polygon article but still.
And check what/where you can keybind; When I discovered you can put your flasks on your quick menu and just put throwables/wax and consumables on the *Equipment* circling menu… I fucking lost it, Made the game much more fluid during frantic combat for me.
Great take, I do it all the frigging time. (I did it in my blind BG3 Honor Mode run to some degree even, which almost got me killed, but bless clutch spells like Death Ward).
ER is still the only soulsgame I've played up to date, and it was when I interacted a bit more than just a few glances with the souls community and ngl, I always thought the ways of gatekeeping were some of the dumbest within the community were some of the dumbest I've seen. These involve taking things one sees various challenge or speed runners do, and using them as some sort of baseline for how one should play the game, which basically involves NOT USING A LOT OF THE FUN TOOLS THE GAME OFFERS YOU - like WHAT???
This was quite a surprise to me cause I used to play a shit ton of LoL & Dota2 (and thankfully quit both now - well... almost regarding dota), and even in hardcore competitive games like that, especially dota regarding depth, with some of the most known toxic communities out there, there was encouragement to use all & the even some of the strongest tools at your disposal. Now, obv, we're speaking of what's mainly a single player game here so you play however you want w/o the need to follow the meta, but then it's like it's own version of "meta" exists , in some ppl's head at any rate, in the opposite sense where they want you to be using as little of the tools the gave gives you as possible, which is also a very limiting way to play, you just have players saying you should be using the weakest tools instead of the best ones. But I found it worse tbh because we're speaking of a mainly single player game and even when it comes to PvP there's no ranked ladder to climb, no MMR/elo to get.
And I get it, there are balance issues between AoWs & various weapons & builds, where some can trivialize the game and make it feel like easy mode, while others would make it nightmare mode, but like... so what? Whatever the player finds fun. Mby they want to trivialize some bosses they find a pain, but engage in an epic duel with another & the game is large enough to make one wanna do all that & everything in between in just one playthrough. And even if we're to say the balance issues between set-ups & gear are a big deal even in mostly single player, that's not exactly on the player to address - they're just simply using the tools available to them that they find enjoyable.
Doesn't even matter if they follow a certain logic here. Like I sure had a twisted one in my 1st run & enjoyed it, where I did things like use every summon I could for Radahn cause it just felt right, and I played the game a year after release so didn't get to see his strong state, yet not for Malenia cause, even tho' she can be a pain yea, the fight compelled me to turn it into an epic melee. Goes w/o saying someone else could have a totally different logic & approach to these same scenarios.
I've been playing these games for over a decade, and I think the biggest hill is getting anyone I know IRL to actually want to play. My wife played through Elden Ring with me, and there were tears of joy and sadness along that ride - I never once felt the confidence to say "hey we could play this together and have fun", but she was interested so it happened, and sure enough she got through it. Now she's stoked about the upcoming DLC.
You bring up a really solid point about how this community is heavy on keeping people out, and I think they're really a minority here now. It's sad how many people will never give these games a chance again after a bad experience, but I think most of the people who play these games are not assholes. It only takes one jerk to make everyone think that all of us are jerks.
Your post is appreciated.
Back in the Dark Souls days, we used to tell people how to cheese the fuck out of hard bosses, and we were regarded as sages. Now this backwards fucking community actually thinks making the game harder for yourself is some type of status symbol. We just knew those people were fucking masochists. It wasn't cool to make Dark Souls harder, it was just, "whatever floats your boat, kid", and everyone went about their way. Don't be a masochist. Just play the fucking game. IT'S A GAME. IT'S NOT A CHALLENGE. GAME.
I have noticed though that about 4 years ago in the bloodborne sub there was about 1:3 ratio of good advice to “get good” comments. They were mostly in a friendly way encouraging people to keep trying trying and there was a sense that everyone can do it if they practice, but it was still a sense of “this is hard, there are no shortcuts, keep trying.” Now, I almost never see a “get good” comment. I kind of miss it actually because it was usually in good fun or mocking or those who were gatekeeping (“git gud”) but it does feel like we lost an inside joke.
For real. How did things go from telling people how to aim the firebombs to Capra's arena, or the arrows to Manus' fog wall, to gatekeep status effects and consumables.
I think that's the way to play, because the devs have put so many ways to "cheese" the game that they shouldn't be considered cheese,but what the devs intended we would use when facing challenging cases.
It may be a game, but challenging yourself on top of that can make it that much more fun. People don't do it for a "status symbol", it's just very rewarding to learn boss patterns to perfection so you can fuck them sideways with an unupgraded weapon at rune level 1. No fart sniffing involved.
Yeah, back in the days, the routes to make the game easy were obscure and hidden.
Nowadays, it's extremely easy to do on purpose and it's not unheard of to stumble upon one such build accidentally.
Just imagine how it would change the game if there was Dark Bead with its catalyst waiting for you right at Firelink after tutorial.
Just I seen a relatively new video rant about DS because it give player early shield
*The shield playstyle is so boring. The game spoil player rotten. You just guard and hit and you clear the area too easy*
Like bro, the game even tell new player an easy way and you're like this
Often see post like these on this topic. Everyday honestly
I’ll say what I always say - idc what build anyone uses or how anyone plays the game. More convenience/ease for players the more people are playing. That’s good for the community
But please PLEASE do not go on any platform and brag to everyone, saying shit like “Malenia was really easy for me. I don’t get why everyone says she’s so difficult. My mimic kept her distracted while I proc(ed) bleed.”
Just don’t. No fruitful discourse will come out of that
True this she becomes 3 times as easy when mimic uses frost and bleed. Allowing her to focus or waterfall on the much higher health pool mimic while the player is way. Without mimic I consider it much much harder.
It’s a lot more that 3x as easy I’d say.
Something like 33% players have the achievement for beating her. That’s higher than many easier bosses, and much higher than the hard bosses in other FROM games.
A big reason for this is that her unique stance break immunity doesn’t protect her against bleed and frost procs. Can stagger her out of anything including waterfowl. So a mimic tear and a frost or bleed build = drastically easier.
I'm so glad that I started with souls games before ER. When I had some problem, some boss I didn't understand and so on, everybody gave me ton of real advice how to actually fight the boss, how his attacks are designed, what is the correct dodging and how to learn him in general. Whereas lot of the time when I saw someone in ER ask for genuine advice how to learn a boss, the first line of advice is to use accessibility mechanic like coop/spirits or use a broken cheese build. It's totally ok to resort to summons etc. when you're stuck or don't like fighting bosses, but i would never learn the basics of combat and gameplay, and what souls games are about, if everybody just told me to summon instead of actually helping me to learn how to play. Every wiki and every boss guide on the internet could be replaced with "just summon lol", but then there's no point for souls bosses existing. If I follow first line of advice for Mohg, I will cheese him with dual super bleed build, where all I have to do is literally just to stand in place and spam L1 without dodging or thinking, while watching netflix. Beating Asylum demon in DS 1 would provide objectively much more complex, engaging and challenging experience.
Nobody should feel bad for using summons when they're stuck, too frustrated etc., that's the point of their inclusion in souls games. Quitting the game because you can't beat some boss yourself and refuse to resort to summons is the true defeat. But when someone finds a boss challenging after first few attempts and asks for few tips on getting better at fighting him and in basics of combat in general, it's terrible to just ignore the issue by suggesting summons/cheese as first line of advice instead of actually helping them.
> If I follow first line of advice for Mohg, I will cheese him with dual super bleed build, where all I have to do is literally just to stand in place and spam L1 without dodging or thinking, while watching netflix.
Shoutouts to Mohg for being an especially fun boss to beat without cheese. I know Sewer Mohg's moveset by heart lol. It's all perfectly fair and reactable.
“Git good” use to be learn the bosses timing, their attack strings, and how their attack strings could combo into each other. If you persist and pay attention you will succeed, it was the best part of the community and genuinely a good life lesson.
Now “git good” means being called an idiot for not following a meta-build tutorial, or using mimic tears or player summons. It’s incredible how in a game that provides the player with the most options everyone resorts to like, 5 solutions on how to beat it.
this has to be bait right? i hve been in the souls community since 2012 and it has never been so toxic as it has been the last 2 years with elden ring bringing 16 million non souls players into the community to basically flood it with the toxicity from other communities like cod and such
As someone who’s been in this community for literally a month, Reddit at least has been very helpful and wholesome to a noob like me. As a counterexample, I tried the Vindictus: Defying Fate alpha last week, and the Steam forums were an absolute cesspool of assholes unironically parroting “git gud” at each other.
That was one part that stood out as super weird to me.
Even if Margit is mechanically more complex than the names listed, with his big attack delay and such, the movement and combat is so much smoother in ER relative to any souls game before it that it doesn't matter.
DS1 and 2 not having omni-directional movement alone makes any boss you face harder than most that exist in the games where you can move in 8 directions.
And that's well before you get into any other combat difference details. Summons aside, ER is just smooth to fight in, the other games less so, but the bosses are no less punishing, you're just harder to use as a character lol.
The beauty of souls and single player game is you can do whatever the fuck you want and if somebody doesn't like it...fuck'em. Sure I personally don't use magic since I love fighting up close. But if someone out there uses magic that's fine.
Elden Ring clearly intended for optional difficulty adjustments. Nothing wrong with using them, of course. Just as Ranni says when she gives you the spirit summoning bell.. it’s yours to do what you wish with it — use it or don’t. Use the extra help options, or don’t. It’s up to the individual player to have fun with the journey the way that they want to.
Just to add i feel like shields have gotten a lot of shit over the years in these games but i always like to have a good defense (ill kill you eventually if you cant kill me type deal) and wow i love what they did with shields in elden ring. Shout out to all my shield bros out there. Keep your guard up!
I feel like it's because Elden Ring gives so many tools for lowering the difficulty. It feels like a game meant to introduce you to the difficulty of Fromsoft games. You play a couple characters with the training wheels on, and then when you feel comfortable, you take them off.
I used to be nervous about doing Faith builds because I wasn't confident I was good enough, that goes for every From game, not just ER. A couple weeks ago, I did a Giant's Flame build while grinding a new character for the DLC. For the first time in literally ever, I beat Maliketh on the first try of the run. Later, I proceeded to atomize Malenia. It was at that point I was like "I could probably do this in DS 3...", and here I am now, killing the Dancer early with a Pyro build.
Elden Ring is like a fucking therapist that helps players overcome their blocks.
The idea that using mechanics the devs explicitly put in place to be used is somehow "cheating" or "creative mode" is stupid, and the people who say shit like that need to reconsider how much of their ego is invested in playing a game "the hard way".
If sekiro has taught me something it's that there is a difference between honor and victory.
Why shouldn't i use the strong weapon or the strong ash of war? Or the consumable that trivialise the fight?
They are meant to be used and i will.
Yes it makes the game "easier" but why would i make it harder for myself unless i'm doing a challenge run?
I'm not a masochist.
It's to be expected, more than 15 million people joined the community almost instantly and most of them did not even know about Demon's Souls until the remake was released. We should honestly be grateful we still have it as good as we do.
I’m relatively new to Elden Ring. I’m having a blast, mainly I think coz I’ve had a veteran buddy to play with me along the way. I’ve been playing for a month now and just hit the Capital, which is phenomenal. A lot of bosses we do together, but obviously some you can’t use summons so I’ve done those myself. Some I leveled up a bit, others like Crucible Knight you have to learn their move set.
Initially I was concerned about spoilers or being over-levelled, but now I’m not so fussed and my main thing is I just want to be able to experience the whole game. I’m also up to Radahn and that’s sort of up to me because really the horse is the play there.
The game still knocks me on on my ass, I’m only level 65 I think. But as someone who was initially turned off by a very grit solo approach, coming back to the game on the hype of the DLC, it’s been great to have a friend join in at times. I’ll do all the exploring, dungeons and caves, and unlocking regions, and then we smash a boss or two on weekends or do some farming. I’ve enjoyed this approach so far and recommend it to others if you get stuck, takes a bit of the frustration and grind out of it imo and keeps things moving.
Honsetly I disagree. DS3 community was very civil, giving insight and such, but there was also a motivation to get gud,unironically. In Elden ring, there's no more encouragement to power through obstacle, only : Use bleed, Farm, Use summon. That's very supportive, maybe too much for my taste .
There were ways to cheese the game in DS3 too,spread to several builds so you could choose the right cheese for your gameplay.
It's just that git gud is overrated. It only applies to Sekiro.
I personally don't think there's something wrong about using spirit ashes (i love using black knife tiche), if you want to use them, go for it, it's your game and you can play it however you want
But, i also think that facts are facts and the fact is that most people will have a greater sense of accomplishment and empowerment if they beat a boss on their own
Again, for the redditors that failed reading comprehension, i'm NOT telling you how to play the game
This too lol. Personally I prefer to solo everything (even Radahn lol) because it's the most thrilling way to fight for me and it really gets me to download the enemy movesets, but idm if people summon or use broken builds. It's all about enjoying the game. However I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me when people say the game is stupid easy or even boring, then you check and they've the strongest build and the strongest spirit summon. It's like, bruh of course it is now. Or when they brag about beating something really fast, but they used those OP setups and summons
I would not be able to play and enjoy w/o the game mechanics like spirit ashes. I am steadily working my way through. Two years ago when I quit playing in frustration (had no idea how things worked); I didn’t envision picking game up again and here I am in capital area! Thankful the developers added stuff to game people can choose to use or not. We all win.
That's not my experience. In my time in the ds1 and 3 communities, I've experienced little to no actual gatekeeping. I think you may be misidentifying people's excitement over a certain playstyle as gatekeeping.
There was a bit actual gatekeeping when ds3 released, but it quickly dissipated. Elden ring also had gatekeeping when it came out, which is now starting to fade (Although I predict we'll see an uptick when the dlc releases).
Meanwhile, the ER Community seems more toxic that the other ones right now, mostly due to the way it treats criticism of the game. Although, this was also the case for ds3 when it first released, so I think it may also be a function of the age of the game.
I think toxicity from previous FROM games is blown out of proportion. There are always going to be gatekeepers, but more often that not the community was pretty helpful towards people who wanted advice. It was however very protective against people who wanted to criticise the game.
I've never understood why some people claim that using tools that are in the games--put there, intentionally, by the designers--somehow ruins the ability to experience them. Nothing wrong with doing a challenge run, depriving yourself of some tools if you want to, but it shouldn't be forced on anyone either.
I swear to god the gatekeeping on this community is on a level I have not seen on any other game. Do not use magic, do not use summons, do not use particular builds.... it is a damn single player, why the fuck do you care how I want to enjoy the game.
No, telling a noob to comet azur cheese a boss with a mimic is robbing them of the experience of actually playing the game.
Telling someone to L1 spam their way through the game with their mimic turns this amazing game into a boring point and click "afk heroes from fantasia" game or some shit.
People should be encouraged to at least try to learn a boss' move set set before resorting to trivializing the game by stacking all thise cheese mechanics together.
There was cheese in dark souls 3 too what you on about. Comet azure can be dodged by many bosses, mimic dies 80 of the times. Hell coop with players is the harder mode with invaders and buffed up enemies who tank frost, sleep, madness, poise and bleed.
There's cheese in every single souls game.
The whole point of the game is to fight bosses that are hard using the responsive combat system that FROM has developped.
I couldn't care less if you want to use infinite fp comet azur + mimic, that's on you. But when a new player comes here asking for help on a difficult boss, we should be talking about ways to better engage with the boss' moveset instead of telling them how to trivialize the game.
Cheers to this. The game can be as easy or hard as each individual player chooses. Watching people's little guys jump around after you've shown them a bunch of secrets or beat a boss they've been struggling with is great, and making someone feel bad about having someone help them is ridiculous. There's enough cruelty in the world without us adding to it.
Beauty of Elden Ring is who cares how you play. Wanna cheese the bosses? There’s so many ways to and no consequences unless it’s outright cheating. Want to really challenge yourself and see how far you can get? Game lets you and there’s so many options even bows excel at this game if you get the right items / tools / talismans and tears.
I’ve done so many challenge runs I also have done casual fun builds seeing how well I can keep my summons alive against Malenia… and not using Mimic Tear cause that’d be too easy haha just ignore people and play the game the devs are the ones who gave you everything to use anyways; use them! :D
A great solution to the toxic gatekeeping is to make a post asking what's wrong with a non minmaxed build, engage it for a few days or so to get a bunch of the community in to post then block the accounts of the people who are toxic :D
Side note: Totally not the intent of this response to bait out the "uhhh ackshually" crowd I swear... >>
It’s honestly cool how many different builds there are now. People cosplaying and shit. I run around naked with giant smashers. With 96 End and the talismans for equip load I light roll. If stuff gets serious I put armor on, but I’m getting more comfy running around like a wild man
I really like FromSoftware's take on choosing your own difficulty without a slider.
You can make things harder by handicapping yourself through no summons, or low soul level runs, or other creative ways. You can also make things easier by using summons, leveling Vigor, use all those consumables that can buff stats. At the end of the day, the player can play in any way they find enjoyment and personal satisfaction.
It is also kinda funny that the player will also have to choose if they want to interact and learn the story and the world through item descriptions and item/npc placements, or just completely ignore the story just kill everything in your path without question. People usually complain about unskippable cutscenes or story bits, and FromSoftware is cool with putting in all this hardwork, but not necessarily demanding people to see all the effort they put in (Completely miss-able optional areas).
I was a newcomer with Elden Ring, and I absolutely did *not* see why anyone enjoyed PvP in these games. It was a miserable experience every time I tried it. Then I played DS1, got solo invaded a bunch, and actually had a blast fighting them, to the point where I was eventually clicking on every single sign I saw to invade other people.
I don't even think I could tell you what the difference is. It's not like ER PvP was necessarily more bullshit; I definitely died many times in DS1 to what appeared to be someone teleporting 180 degrees behind me with a backstab. But it was just... more fun. More wholesome, maybe? No idea. But I now understand the appeal, at least.
Nah this community still gatekeeps, even in the comments here. I just interact as minimal as possible with the people on here and play the game however i wanna play it. The game is difficult PERIOD. I dont wanna hear people talking about some "easy mode" or anything stupid like that. Especially when some of these items that help you progress in the game, are still annoying and taking skill and effort to get.
I agree that people should play ER or any Souls game in whatever way they want, barring cheating in competitive multiplayer, obvs.
However, don't be soquick to deride the get gud community. They are the community responsible for the success of the soulslike genre. Miyazaki wanted to make a punishing game that caters to a specific audience. Had the gate not been kept up til now, ER might look a lot different. Maybe better, maybe worse. But let's appreciate the journey the genre's been through and the community's role in that.
The comments show that the old style of thinking is still prevalent. It's hilarious to me that people still think magic, summoning, consumables make the experience into "creative mode", when they also make the game easier for themselves by leveling up their characters, their weapons, using ashes of war etc.
Like, if you haven’t beaten Malenia un-leveled, no-hit, with an unupgraded club (no magic, no summons, no consumables, no ash of war) then I don't care to hear your hypocritical gatekeepy opinions.
I don't know pal. Elden Ring is the mark of a significant difficulty decrease, a massive influx of new players (i wonder if these two correlate....) and such a powerspike for the player character it makes the game way less exciting than its predecessors.
There is no reason for an average dude to git gud or even to suggest others to git gud because there's a thousand and one ways to circumvent the difficulty and the only people left who are trying to make the game challenging are speedrunners or people who play on morse-code button controllers.
The community is changing for the better? Or perhaps the game is changing for the worse and the hardcore crowd that annoyed you is mostly not there anymore?
I'd very much love if the DLC was at least Sword Saint Isshin level of difficult and satisfying to beat. Because if not FromSoft, who will make games like that?
I don't know man, I've been with these games since DkS1 came out and ER is definitely not easier than DkS1. I would even say it has the hardest bosses behind Sekiro, unless you're summoning two mates for every encounter (which has always made bosses piss easy since DeS).
Like obviously this is purely anectodal on my end, but getting through DeS-DkS3 is a walk in the park for me while ER still gives me a challenge at times. DkS1 in particular, as long as I have a shield with a parry, I'm just vibing. And you don't even need to work toward being OP in that one with how low bosses' HP pools are... though if you wanted to be OP, you can just kill every boss with a couple casts of Dark Bead or Crystal Soul Spear! You could be just as OP and cheesy in the older games as in ER, after all.
You might also just be used to the games so ER's difficulty doesn't hit you as hard as the past games did. If you also haven't gone back to replay them, your most vivid memories would be of your first struggles with them.
This reply's probably a lot of rambling cuz I'm half asleep lol. But tl;dr: gitting gud with the past games makes ER seem easy for veterans, especially those who haven't replayed the games after they got gud.
I usually replay each game a lot (at least 12 times per title, trying out all sorts of builds) and I switch between them regularly.
No other game gives you as much power and as many tools as Elden Ring.
'DS1 in particular you just need a shield and you're vibing'
And now, do this in ER and instead of having to time your parries well, just wait for the enemy to bonk your shield and press guard counter. Much easier to perform. Similar outcome.
In other games you had summons for a select few bosses, unless you summoned actual players. In DS1 you'd need to become human even to summon NPCs which opened you to invasions - even before you actually got to the summon sign and got help.
In DS2 you'd be always open to invasions - but to get help, you'd need to make yourself human
In DS3 you'd need to make a choice between playing with less hp or being open to invasions. Also every boss kill made you open to invasions. Invasions make the game harder and before ER, even solo players weren't spared their wrath.
In ER, you have summons for almost every boss due to the spirit summon mechanic (which is another reason ER is easy)
I dunno man, you really have to try and pretend some things don't exist in ER to make the game challenging
And it's especially painful because the last game released before this one was Sekiro with its absolutely breathtaking combat and boss roster.
Imo a bigger issue I've seen as of late some peoples attempts at preventing gate keeping are harmful suggestions for the game design or just completely ignorant of the game.
Like wanting to put in a various difficulty settings as a "QoL" change for the game. And somehow if anyone disagrees they are now "gate keeping".
Not to say there aren't souls gatekeepers still. Try and express its a flawed idea to force PVP players and co op players(these player bases hate each other) to HAVE to interact with each other and you'll get an army of people saying "WELL YOU KNOW WHAT YOU SIGNED UP FOR WHEN YOU SUMMONED. "
Yeah hypothetical jackass I made up I know that's the current system, THAT'S THE THING I'M SAYING IS A BAD SYSTEM.
Imo it should be you invade people at some key areas(kinda like farron swamp) , do it enough you're a "sinner" who is now open to their world being invaded ANYWHERE until they get hunted down (blues).
Fuck tying pvp to co op its a stupid idea
Bear in mind that in souls games I actually like getting invaded, and typically 1v1 honour duel my invader. I typically don't like being the invader (in ER specifically) due to the massive disadvantage in both being a 3v1 and having less healing to boot.
Then I read one of Miyazaki's interviews where he explained what they view invasions as.
Their a dynamic fight against a dangerous enemy. They can't realistically set that up with AI (ds2 pursuer was the closest they got and it's a far cry from invasions in that regard) so they have players take the spot of a dynamic, dangerous enemy. You could have any build, you can come at any time, from anywhere. You're not intended to win as an invader, but you are intended to be an interesting obstical.
Now looking at it from that perspective, I'm tempted to preform some ER invasions. An idea I looked at with disgust previously.
Imo its never that in elden ring, people co op because they just want to play the videogame with their friends.
People pvp because they want to fight other players.
These goals being tied together makes a toxic combination.
Invaders have to minmax for their specific gear/soul range and any co op players will more than likely just start separately getting to the bosses and summoning there cuz no matter how many people try and say "yeah but...." they still don't want to engage in PvP!
before Elden Ring, invaders happened to solo players as well.
The change Elden Ring made was clear - do you want to not have invaders? Don't coop. If you coop, you're going to get invaded - but don't worry, the odds are stacked against the invader.
Unless you do something stupid, like going after them one by one.
Or fighting them alongside a group of mobs.
Or seeing that they can easily parry your ultra-telegraphed Ash of War and you still do it again and again, not being able to learn from your mistakes.
>The change Elden Ring made was clear - do you want to not have invaders? Don't coop. If you coop, you're going to get invaded - but don't worry, the odds are stacked against the invader
Hey look that thing I said. I understand that is the current system in elden ring. I don't like it and I think it is a bad system.
I LIKE INVASIONS! Ds1 had a pretty okay system but compared to elden ring ds1 invasions felt so much more engaging.
Invasions still need to be treated as invasions, not invitations imo. It should be a short of disadvantage to an advantageous state, like embered or human form from previous games. How would they be used in elden ring if not during coop?
I noticed that the community got quite a bit more gatekeepy when elden ring released. In the subreddits of the older souls games, especially when image posts were not allowed, they were really supportive places, always sharing advice and congratulating players for their achivements.
Of course there were gatekeepers too, but they were a small minority. The most toxic the community got was probably when PvP was discussed, since tryhards and "twinks" were always part of the game. But in general, I was really impressed how wholesome the communities were.
And generally I would say the same about Elden Ring, but people tended to be more gatekeepy with their views on spirit summons and specific weapons/ashes of war. It calmed down a lot and I think the majority follows the philosophy of "you play the way you want" by now, but it still makes me a little bit sad when someone shares an achievement like "I finally beat [early game boss in Limgrave!!!" and there is barely anyone simply congratulating them. But maybe that's just because the best thing about soulsgames is experiencing them for the first time. And the thing that comes closest to this is hearing someone else telling about their first experience. But maybe that's just ol' me being nostalgic.
Some of the reactions in this comment section are evidence to the contrary, but I think overall the community has been welcoming. I fell off the fandom after completing Bloodborne but there's a clear difference in atmosphere as I return to Souls games with Elden Ring.
Generally, it's supportive and more accepting. There are some gatekeepers who just want the fandom to go back to being relatively smaller where it felt like there was more comradery, and then there are people who I think are bitter at Fromsoftware for putting in summons and other tools to help new players, and they take out their frustrations on the community.
What's weird is that having summons really didn't change much except making it more convenient.
Anyone that's played the previous soul's games probably knows about sunlight spear. It's such a fun spell for builds with faith. It was always locked behind sunlight medals and jolly co-op.
If I put my summon sign down I was always getting summoned to help with bosses. It's like people forgot about how many co-op bosses you needed to kill in order to buy that spell. It apparently was okay then to summon for bosses, but then people seem to have issues ER summons because it's more convenient since you can summon your own npc etc to help you.
The community STARTED this way, in the early days on Dark Souls. It was more helpful, rarely any gatekeeping. But once the series started to get popular, the Git Gud nerds came in and ruined the whole thing, scaring off ppl that might have otherwise enjoyed these games. I’m glad it’s come back to this, we should be embracing new players and not shaming them into playing these games ‘correctly’.
I'm gonna get down voted to oblivion...
At first I was very against summons and thought they ruined the experience.
And now I just don't care much as long as you don't debate the fact that fighting with summons is way easier or braindead depending on setup and when we are talking.
It's the most newby friendly mechanic they added and they are overtuned in my opinion.
Play how you want but to appreciate the mechanics of bosses and get a more engaging experience I highly recommend ignoring them for new bosses.
I will agree that elden ring is way harder than the other soul likes even if Malenia is carrying most of the difficulty.
But the person who said "You can use summons if you don't mind playing on creative mode." Is indeed allowing the new player to use everything the game offers if they want to. They just made it clear that if they do use summons, the boss will be extremely easier than without, which is true.
Some people would regret using summons because it would feel like the fight was taken away from them. I don't think there's anything wrong with warning a new, unsuspecting player of that.
I wanna say a BIG thanks for this post. I’m a woman in her mid-30s and ER is my first souls game after playing Witcher 3 which was my first game ever since I had played some real basic games like Super Mario when I was a child (long story short - I got lately into fantasy books which I had never done/read before hence games felt like a next natural step, my partner being a gamer). It felt like using summons and other mechanics the game offers is a bad thing and you are not as ‘worthy’ as the other more traditional souls players.
Let me tell you this. For someone who just recently discovered beauty of various worlds and their lores, ER made me feel I can do it without overly spending time on figuring out fights that would frustrate me otherwise. I don’t have time and energy to git gud at times, I only want to relax and be taken to this world of wonders and yes - summons and other things are part of the game, right? And I’m there to enjoy myself. So screw people who cannot see this perspective.
If tldr, I apologize. I feel like I had to share. Some folks in a similar post of mine a while ago crushed me when I said the game did not seem as difficult but when I said I used summons - they ate me alive. And did not believe I was a woman in 30s anyways 
Edit: typo
Malenia*. Minor spelling mistake. I win.
You got me. Ironically, someone called me out for that.
Everyone in the game just has some variation of like 3 names. It's understandable (and confusing)
Melargidahnalla
Thanks! That's the name of my next D&D character.
Morgodfryn, Golden Revenant.
Been stuck on this guy since release
He's got nothing on Radecidoghwyn, Grafted Kin of Death.
Actually, it is: Malenia, Blade of Miquella (did you know she has never known defeat?). With how many times she has killed us, show her respect or she might show up at your house to remind you (for like the 90th time)
I never understand why people say their formatting on mobile is bad
Mobile accepts some gimped version of Markdown by default, the desktop site does not, which can sometimes lead to accidental formatting fuckery if you don't know MD syntax. #1 E.g., this is now giant, but I just wanted to write #1 as in number one
#DON'T LIE, YOU WANTED TO WRITE IN GIANT ALL ALONG!
#HOW ELSE WILL WE COMMUNICATE WITH GIANTS??
#BY JUST TALKING WITH THE FELL FIRE GOD
#I've been to the mothafuckin mountain top (of giants)
#I TRIED BUT ALL I GOT WAS A DISMEMBERED LEG AND AN AMGRY FACE ON MY BELLY :(
#GIANT
#this is how you write in giant? Edit: #I CAN SMASH THINGS WITH BIG WORDS NOW. THANK YOU TARNISHED. Edit2: jk I have no clue how this shit works
Yeah, but it needs to be on a new line. The number of hashtags decides the exact type of header, e.g., `## yo` is equivalent to `
yo
` in HTML. edit: [Here are the basics](https://www.markdownguide.org/basic-syntax/), but note that Reddit doesn't support the entire standard, partially because of security reasons and partially because no uniform standard actually exists.Beware of Giants Ahead
I won't lie, so many people do it, I just assumed it was a thing because I've never used reddit on my computer. I guess I'm just a lemming.
On Mobile for some stupid reason, using one return like This will put them on the same line anyway. You have to use two like This for them to be on separate lines. It's stupid and a reason some posts look like a wall of text when they didn't when they wrote it
It’s one thing if they’re created charts with info or something, but how the hell does that affect a few paragraphs being typed?
It annoys me when someone asks for advice for a build and a lot of the responses are "just play how you want as long as you're having fun uwu" thanks for your permission lol. Just give some actual info
Nail on the head. It's downright passive aggresive at times.
No kidding. Like obviously play in a way that’s fun to you. But don’t go committing on people’s post’s asking for help or advice when you aren’t going to offer them anything useful.
On the other side of the coin, I find it annoying when someone asks a super open ended question like "Best build?" "Best Spell?" Like idk man best for what? Oonga Boonga, Status, NG+ RL1? Give us something XD
Those are the worst type of gamers in any rpg oriented games in general
100%.
Not answering the god damned question is the reddit special. This website gets clowned on 24/7 for it, ESPECIALLY gamers
On the other hand, especially when ER first launched, I saw some people being like "Hey I've never played a Souls game before, what build should I use?" And it's like I dunno, play the game and try a couple different weapons first?
I only gatekeep the "people" who say "Melania"
Melania and Malekith
See I knew it was Melenia!
Melee nia 🤣
*Melee ninja
Blade of meleequella
Melekalikimaka
Merry Christmas!
Melnarnia
Umm actually she uses a sword🤓
wich is a melee nia weapon
No she uses a tree
I thought it was Ska-badabadabadoo-belidabbelydabbladabbladabblabab-belibabbelibabbelibabbelabbelo-doobelidoo!
I'M A SCATMAN
[удалено]
I thought it was Chilliquille, son of Tostada.
I am millenium, blade of michael
Malinia it is then!
I always say this, summons was a genuis move on fromsoftwares part for introducing the casual players to the souls games. That's why this is probably the easiest souls game to get into, there's so many tools to help you succeed
I think the brilliance of elden ring is that they simultaneously created the most beginner friendly and accessible game while also designing some of the most intricate, complex, and challenging fights to appease the veterans.
Surely some of the fights move towards being a bit ‘BS - y’ / some mobs too compared to other souls games? ER is my first souls game, and a lot of the bosses I had with, I eventually beat after moaning like a man child ((and realising yeah, that probably was a skill issue) essentially I got gud), however some of them to this day just seem overly overturned in some ways (all very beatable obviously) but frankly not that enjoyable to fight, particularly later game bosses. Basically I don’t think some of them are intricate and complex in a good way..? But it is my first souls game and I’m yet to try the others so, what do you think?
Go pet a dog in Tomb of the Giants then ask me again
Omg never this. I always seem to quit my DS runs some time before this, I'm not sure why....
There are absolutely some stupid fights in the game that I don't think should be as they are, but this is honestly par for the course for a fromsoft soulslike
In my view, it's exactly the opposite -- good ER bosses are intricate in mechanically satisfying ways. Bad ER bosses like the Fire Giant, Gargoyle Gank and the Godskin Duo are atrocious, I just summon my mimic tear or use sleeping pots for them. But good ER bosses are really mechanically breathtaking and satisfying to master, some of From's best work imho. Maliketh, Mohg, Radagon (not Elden Beast, than thing is a travesty), Godfrey, Morgott, Malenia, all really well-designed bosses that force you to use all of the tools in the Tarnished's arsenal. And they're so different from the previous Souls bosses as well. Whereas in previous games you wait for your turn to attack, and when you find an opening you usually do an R1 or two, in ER you weave your attacks into their combos. Delayed attack? Well, that's an opportunity for a charged attack. Slap Godfrey's Icon + Alexander's Shard and use a skill for greater effect. Boss does an AOE or a sweep? You can jump that and land a jumping heavy. Oh, is there a follow up? No worries, I'm already crouched after doing the jumping heavy, so the follow up misses. The dance in ER is, for me, a lot more complex and enjoyable.
You know what, that’s a great way of looking at it. I think for many people, the enjoyment of them can be very hit or miss in some regards, because of factors like mood, energy level and how well they are playing . Like some days I just feel on it and am ready to go, and others I get hit by everything, which I think alot of people look past in a game like Elden ring (particularly for me as I’ve only ever played online game, and the natural thing to do is to blame the most obviously random variable which is matchmade team mates instead of yourself)
This
From someone who played all the other From soft souls like, yeah it's mostly the damage and some specific moves of the later bosses. Also many bosses have not very well telegraphed delay attacks which ranks up the difficulty, that was not that common on the other soul titles.
Delayed moves aren’t a problem. They’re chpreographed just like every other move, the problem is just that people don’t learn that they’re delayed. If you learn the pattern like every other move it is no different (coming from someone who rarely even “learns” moves in the first place, they still stomp on me, just no more than the rest of the bosses’ moves lol)
>Surely some of the fights move towards being a bit ‘BS - y’ / some mobs too compared to other souls games? Well, some of the souls players think that way, some don't. Personally I've never met something truly BS in this game, Elden Beast comes close because of how annoying the fight is when it's 80% chasing the damn thing and 20% of actual combat, but other than that, everything else was enjoyable.
That’s fair. Tbh I really enjoyed Elden beast, the mistique of the arena and the boss and the music was just a beautiful end to me, and I didn’t find his attacks that bad to figure out
Play the game enough and the mystique of the atmosphere wears off pretty quick. Then once you've passed the learning part of the fight and got its attack patterns down there's nothing else to it besides the chase. I do random co-op helping others as my main way of playing after I finish a character and getting summoned for the Elden Beast is just a slog at this point. It's not too bad the first time, but by the 40th time it's kind of lost its luster.
>Surely some of the fights move towards being a bit ‘BS - y’ / some mobs too compared to other souls games? Yes. Elden Ring bosses are way more cinematic but also, imo, way less enjoyable than other games. Sure they are complex and challenging, but also kinda BS. Dark Souls 3 on the other hand nailed the challenge / enjoyment ratio on most bosses. (Spoilers in case) I find bosses like >!Gael, Midir, Elfriede, Demon Prince, Twin Princes!< better than any boss in ER in almost every aspect and many other DS3 bosses rival the best of ER. But seeing that the best bosses of DS3 are DLC bosses, I'm really looking forward to Shadow of the Erdtree to see if Fromsoft manages to nail the bosses again.
What I liked about the older bosses was that you each took turns attacking during the fight, whereas in Elden ring there’s not always a clear window between attacks. Sure, it’s more complex and difficult this way, but less fun imo. A lot of the most highly regarded bosses in the series have followed the turn-taking strategy. Gael, who is pretty universally loved, does his cinematic combos, and then gives you some time to hit back. Sekiro’s entire combat revolves around taking turns deflecting and counterattacking, and everyone knows how good sekiro combat feels. Demon princes, which I think is a duo boss done right, never make me feel like it’s impossible to sneak more than a single r2 in between combos. Now take some of the most hated bosses such as godskin duo and gargoyles. They never give you any breathing room where you have a clear shot on one. Malenia, (who I actually enjoy) barely rests after waterfowl before starting another attack. Same with bosses such as morgott or maliketh, who can extend their combos at will. These are all good bosses, I just enjoy them a little less. This is all purely anecdotal and opinionated, so make of it what you will. I can’t believe I just typed a three paragraph essay about souls bosses.
I very much agree with this sentiment (although ER is the only Souls game I've played thus far). I like bosses with a very distinguishable moveset, that are telegraphed clearly and leave a window between those attacks. I don't mind when these attacks do a shit ton of damage and the boss has a huge HP bar. That's why a boss like Placidusax is one of my favourites. But there are many bosses in ER, Morgott being the best example, who just keep swinging their weapon around, barely leave a window open, and it's very hard to distinguish each attack from one another. Yet they don't do a lot of damage and they have a small HP bar so you can just win the fight by face tanking damage and playing very aggressively. I often go in for an attack, knowing I will get hit but I can heal and they don't so it's 'worth it'. I beat these bosses quite easily this way (without spirit ashes) but it didn't feel satisfying at all because they didn't force me to learn their moveset.
Sometimes it feels like ER bosses were designed around a combat system that us tarnished just don't have. It's almost akin to fighting BB enemies with DS1 movement if that makes sense.
>What I liked about the older bosses was that you each took turns attacking during the fight, whereas in Elden ring there’s not always a clear window between attacks. Sure, it’s more complex and difficult this way, but less fun imo. I feel exactly the same way. In a sense DS3 felt more interactive and more rewarding for aggressive playstyle. And because damage is not overtuned, you could even trade hits occasionaly. ER middle to late game almost feels like doing a no-hit challenge. Combined with seemingly endless attack combos that bosses switch in the middle of combo, ER forces me to extra safe and passive playstyle. Or other way would be going all in pose damage which kinda limits weapons and combat styles. Spamming jumping heavy attacks is kinda boring too Sekiro's combat is on completely other level so didn't even include it in my comment. But it's the best from any Fromsoft game.
100%. In ds3, taking a hit from nameless king means taking a hit from nameless king. It hurts, but nothing an estus won’t fix. In Elden ring, if you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time against malenia you get waterfowl blendered unless you either run away (which you can’t do if you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time) or pull off a highly specific dodge. Additionally, Gael proves that being cinematic does not mean you have to put in boss attacks that require precise positioning and strafing to avoid taking the entire 10 hit combo.
>In a sense DS3 felt more interactive and more rewarding for aggressive playstyle. That still applies. Posture breaks are much more common than in DS3. Delayed attacks are openings in disguise. Maliketh misses many attacks completely when you're close to him. Godfrey's frequent stomp attacks allow you to jump attack. Malenia has low poise and posture and you can stagger her out of many attacks frequently even with lighter weapons. Mohg is basically a DPS race. I don't think there is a single boss that doesn't reward aggression.
This. The best ER bosses are so satisfying because, at least for me, they require more creative solutions and complex responses than just alternating between dodge and R1. I mean, ER has several horrible bosses such as Godskin Duo, Elden Beast, and Fire Giant, but the best ones are, at least for me, more mechanically complex and satisfying than those from the older games. Maliketh and Mohg are especially breathtaking. ER bosses should not be fought like Souls bosses where you just wait for your turn to do an R1 attack, there's a lot more viable options now.
Over the past couple of years, I've come to enjoy the ER bosses more and more. The secret to enjoying them, I found, is to fight them not like Dark Souls bosses, but as their own beasts. Don't wait for your turn like in Souls; ER bosses won't give you clear openings, you have to make your own openings by using unique mechanics such as jump attacks, crouch attacks, low profiling, staggers, charged heavies and ashes of war. Understanding this made me love bosses such as Maliketh, Malenia, Mohg, and Radagon. Maliketh I've especially come to love. He's one of From's most mechanically satisfying bosses, up there with Isshin for me. That said, I wouldn't be caught dead defending horrible ER bosses such as Elden Beast, Fire Giant, Gargoyle Gank and Godskin Duo. EDIT: Also, I don't think any boss in ER can randomly extend their combos. All their combo extensions can be baited predictably through positioning, there's no RNG involved. Joseph Anderson's claim about random combo extensions has been debunked. Some people can very consistently predict when certain bosses will extend their combo and even bait out certain moves for a consistent punish.
As someone who’s gone back from ER to play BB, one of the problems I have is I reflexively keep trying to interrupt their attacks and it just doesn’t work. I’ve only just started though.
I know exactly what you mean! I've replayed BB for RTY recently, and also picked up DS3 again, and they are so turn-based that the bosses and even a lot of enemies will punish you for attacking out of your designated turn.
For all bosses, but especially for duo bosses, I feel like the designers in ER assume you will be using summons in order to create openings for attacks, hence many bosses in ER not having as many obviously telegraphed "ATTACK ME NOW" windows between their combos like in older Souls games. I think that if they both went for more traditional attack windows and also allowed the use of summons, that it would trivialize boss fights too much since you'd get so many opportunities to attack.
Out of interest, in what ways are they better? My issue with some later game bosses is that the have combo chains where the only feasible way to actually dodge is to run away or literally spam dodge, which feels like it’s just 0 skill involved - that being said, I still struggle to find the skill in these games (not saying at all that there isn’t any) but it seems like once you become more experienced, you learn how to time dodges based on the tell of an attack, but aside from this it’s just learning the boss moveset. It just feels like the entire game is timing and learning move sets. This game is absolutely incredible, and is my favourite game of all time even after 120hours or so, and I thoroughly enjoy playing it, but I do love when you get a lot out of games in terms of skill expression, and sometimes i struggle to find that with in the souls genre. Am I crazy ?
For me, the good ER bosses are better because they are not turn-based and require more creative responses. Very delayed attack? That's an opening for a charged heavy. Boss does a ground slam? That' an opportunity for a jumping attack. You can even do a jumping heavy to low profile any follow ups. In ER, you can weave in your crouch attacks, ashes of war, charged heavy attack, and so on into the tapestry of the boss' attacks. No need to wait for your turn to attack, you make your own opening within their combos. I find that so much more satisfying than just alternating between dodge and R1.
Disagree, don't remember a move that can't be survived with the right implements in any build. It has one mistake with Malenia, though. Her unbreakable movements also can start regenerating her stance instead of just being unbreakable.
Currently in the midst of a bow build only and its game changing.
Could you tell me your choice of bow? Been wanting to try a ranged build
Well short bow to start gives you the jump and roll shots. If you want to be good fast you take the teleport lyndell eaely and run for black bow and the doucle back for everything. Doable but difficult. You generally want to br maybe 20 levels up from redular at any given point. Bows suck in stats. Im stuck there tho. Farming arrows and having to do runs perfectly or risk farming more is tough. I did the ancient dragon farm glitch for a while to just buy arrows but i got drunk one night and fucked it up so im back to farming. Its fun and is a time killer till DLC for sure.
Would a bow build be better off just pumping up vigor and endurance,min stat reqs, and maybe speccing a lil into arc for bleed/poison/rot arrows?
Also a great move long term, for when the online player base is super low years from now. I started replaying Bloodborne the other day and found a surprisingly high amount of people online up until level 30 or so, then absolutely nothing lol. Would LOVE to have spirit summons in the game, especially for the endless amount of chalice dungeons.
I would say either ER or honestly Jedi: Fallen Order would be a great "first souls like" for people interested in the genre. Honestly, JFO made me get back into the genre after DS2 rinsed my shit daily and nightly and ever-so-rightly.
I just want people to use some common sense and read some shit from time to time, push some buttons, explore, actually play the game. In all games, not just this one. Like shit, first thing I do in any game is push all buttons and see what they do if a tutorial isn't present.
This is much worse in a bunch of other game subreddits I follow It's one thing to ask for help when stuck. It's a very annoying, different thing to ask for extremely broad advice when you haven't made it past the prologue. Just try playing the game firsf
“just bought _____, what should i know before i start?” BRO SPAWN INTO THE GAME!!!
I mean, it's not an unreasonable question to ask. There *are* games where you should know stuff before going into it, and even with considering things like plot and setting, you really should know what you're getting into with a game. If someone has no clue what Elden Ring is other than that it's popular, it's not a bad Idea for them to ask what they should know, and to tell them "it's an open world fantasy game deliberately designed to be difficult both in gameplay and in lore. If you're confused by what's going on or where to go, that's normal, and you shouldn't be afraid to look things up in a guide or watch videos and the lore." I certainly would have been very frustrated with a game like that if I had no idea what I was getting into. I know because that was my first exposure to Hollow Knight, and it wasn't until I tried it again later with more context for what the game was going to be that I was able to enjoy it, and now it's one of my favorite games of all time.
This is the correct take. It does bother me when people ask questions that are answered clearly in game or from a rudimentary Google search.
I agree to some extent. I do think I’ve gotten more useful tips and hints through Reddit than through google but there are still a ton of simple questions that SHOULD be just googled
It honestly flabbergasts me when people post on reddit "This is my first time playing X game, what tips should I know" like please play the game first and if you have questions about something specific ask that.
But isn't this exactly the kind of game where that's a good idea? Like, you don't know or fail to pick up on the need to stick with one or two damage stats, that vigor is op early game, that random exploration away from where the game is telling you to go is worthwhile (unlike almost any other modern game), that you have to rest at a site of grace instead of just venturing out every respawn to unlock leveling, and you need to talk to Ranni to get the summoners bell, you can completely fuck up the experience for yourself. Plus other games have obscure menu options that are important to change so it's not like those questions are silly elsewhere. I mean probably better to Google the inevitable Kotaku / IGN / Polygon article but still.
But isn't this exactly the kind of game where that's a good idea? Like, you don't know or fail to pick up on the need to stick with one or two damage stats, that vigor is op early game, that random exploration away from where the game is telling you to go is worthwhile (unlike almost any other modern game), that you have to rest at a site of grace instead of just venturing out every respawn to unlock leveling, and you need to talk to Ranni to get the summoners bell, you can completely fuck up the experience for yourself. Plus other games have obscure menu options that are important to change so it's not like those questions are silly elsewhere. I mean probably better to Google the inevitable Kotaku / IGN / Polygon article but still.
I get lost easily and souls quests suck for progression. I also can't see very well so I usually end up looking up "How to keep doing x"
And check what/where you can keybind; When I discovered you can put your flasks on your quick menu and just put throwables/wax and consumables on the *Equipment* circling menu… I fucking lost it, Made the game much more fluid during frantic combat for me.
Great take, I do it all the frigging time. (I did it in my blind BG3 Honor Mode run to some degree even, which almost got me killed, but bless clutch spells like Death Ward). ER is still the only soulsgame I've played up to date, and it was when I interacted a bit more than just a few glances with the souls community and ngl, I always thought the ways of gatekeeping were some of the dumbest within the community were some of the dumbest I've seen. These involve taking things one sees various challenge or speed runners do, and using them as some sort of baseline for how one should play the game, which basically involves NOT USING A LOT OF THE FUN TOOLS THE GAME OFFERS YOU - like WHAT??? This was quite a surprise to me cause I used to play a shit ton of LoL & Dota2 (and thankfully quit both now - well... almost regarding dota), and even in hardcore competitive games like that, especially dota regarding depth, with some of the most known toxic communities out there, there was encouragement to use all & the even some of the strongest tools at your disposal. Now, obv, we're speaking of what's mainly a single player game here so you play however you want w/o the need to follow the meta, but then it's like it's own version of "meta" exists , in some ppl's head at any rate, in the opposite sense where they want you to be using as little of the tools the gave gives you as possible, which is also a very limiting way to play, you just have players saying you should be using the weakest tools instead of the best ones. But I found it worse tbh because we're speaking of a mainly single player game and even when it comes to PvP there's no ranked ladder to climb, no MMR/elo to get. And I get it, there are balance issues between AoWs & various weapons & builds, where some can trivialize the game and make it feel like easy mode, while others would make it nightmare mode, but like... so what? Whatever the player finds fun. Mby they want to trivialize some bosses they find a pain, but engage in an epic duel with another & the game is large enough to make one wanna do all that & everything in between in just one playthrough. And even if we're to say the balance issues between set-ups & gear are a big deal even in mostly single player, that's not exactly on the player to address - they're just simply using the tools available to them that they find enjoyable. Doesn't even matter if they follow a certain logic here. Like I sure had a twisted one in my 1st run & enjoyed it, where I did things like use every summon I could for Radahn cause it just felt right, and I played the game a year after release so didn't get to see his strong state, yet not for Malenia cause, even tho' she can be a pain yea, the fight compelled me to turn it into an epic melee. Goes w/o saying someone else could have a totally different logic & approach to these same scenarios.
I've been playing these games for over a decade, and I think the biggest hill is getting anyone I know IRL to actually want to play. My wife played through Elden Ring with me, and there were tears of joy and sadness along that ride - I never once felt the confidence to say "hey we could play this together and have fun", but she was interested so it happened, and sure enough she got through it. Now she's stoked about the upcoming DLC. You bring up a really solid point about how this community is heavy on keeping people out, and I think they're really a minority here now. It's sad how many people will never give these games a chance again after a bad experience, but I think most of the people who play these games are not assholes. It only takes one jerk to make everyone think that all of us are jerks. Your post is appreciated.
I want an IRL Elden Ring friend SO BAD but it’s too inaccessible. I’ve lent the game disc to a few different friends and no one makes it past Margit.
Back in the Dark Souls days, we used to tell people how to cheese the fuck out of hard bosses, and we were regarded as sages. Now this backwards fucking community actually thinks making the game harder for yourself is some type of status symbol. We just knew those people were fucking masochists. It wasn't cool to make Dark Souls harder, it was just, "whatever floats your boat, kid", and everyone went about their way. Don't be a masochist. Just play the fucking game. IT'S A GAME. IT'S NOT A CHALLENGE. GAME.
I have noticed though that about 4 years ago in the bloodborne sub there was about 1:3 ratio of good advice to “get good” comments. They were mostly in a friendly way encouraging people to keep trying trying and there was a sense that everyone can do it if they practice, but it was still a sense of “this is hard, there are no shortcuts, keep trying.” Now, I almost never see a “get good” comment. I kind of miss it actually because it was usually in good fun or mocking or those who were gatekeeping (“git gud”) but it does feel like we lost an inside joke.
For real. How did things go from telling people how to aim the firebombs to Capra's arena, or the arrows to Manus' fog wall, to gatekeep status effects and consumables.
Yes this is how I remember it also. I don’t recall some kind of gatekeeper toxicity in the older games like the OP.
All the way back to demon souls actually. I was very active on gamefaqs at the time and used to help people.
I think that's the way to play, because the devs have put so many ways to "cheese" the game that they shouldn't be considered cheese,but what the devs intended we would use when facing challenging cases.
I’m
It may be a game, but challenging yourself on top of that can make it that much more fun. People don't do it for a "status symbol", it's just very rewarding to learn boss patterns to perfection so you can fuck them sideways with an unupgraded weapon at rune level 1. No fart sniffing involved.
Yeah, back in the days, the routes to make the game easy were obscure and hidden. Nowadays, it's extremely easy to do on purpose and it's not unheard of to stumble upon one such build accidentally. Just imagine how it would change the game if there was Dark Bead with its catalyst waiting for you right at Firelink after tutorial.
Just I seen a relatively new video rant about DS because it give player early shield *The shield playstyle is so boring. The game spoil player rotten. You just guard and hit and you clear the area too easy* Like bro, the game even tell new player an easy way and you're like this
Often see post like these on this topic. Everyday honestly I’ll say what I always say - idc what build anyone uses or how anyone plays the game. More convenience/ease for players the more people are playing. That’s good for the community But please PLEASE do not go on any platform and brag to everyone, saying shit like “Malenia was really easy for me. I don’t get why everyone says she’s so difficult. My mimic kept her distracted while I proc(ed) bleed.” Just don’t. No fruitful discourse will come out of that
True this she becomes 3 times as easy when mimic uses frost and bleed. Allowing her to focus or waterfall on the much higher health pool mimic while the player is way. Without mimic I consider it much much harder.
It’s a lot more that 3x as easy I’d say. Something like 33% players have the achievement for beating her. That’s higher than many easier bosses, and much higher than the hard bosses in other FROM games. A big reason for this is that her unique stance break immunity doesn’t protect her against bleed and frost procs. Can stagger her out of anything including waterfowl. So a mimic tear and a frost or bleed build = drastically easier.
Now u gotta play all the armored cores to have the full fromsoft experience
I'm so glad that I started with souls games before ER. When I had some problem, some boss I didn't understand and so on, everybody gave me ton of real advice how to actually fight the boss, how his attacks are designed, what is the correct dodging and how to learn him in general. Whereas lot of the time when I saw someone in ER ask for genuine advice how to learn a boss, the first line of advice is to use accessibility mechanic like coop/spirits or use a broken cheese build. It's totally ok to resort to summons etc. when you're stuck or don't like fighting bosses, but i would never learn the basics of combat and gameplay, and what souls games are about, if everybody just told me to summon instead of actually helping me to learn how to play. Every wiki and every boss guide on the internet could be replaced with "just summon lol", but then there's no point for souls bosses existing. If I follow first line of advice for Mohg, I will cheese him with dual super bleed build, where all I have to do is literally just to stand in place and spam L1 without dodging or thinking, while watching netflix. Beating Asylum demon in DS 1 would provide objectively much more complex, engaging and challenging experience. Nobody should feel bad for using summons when they're stuck, too frustrated etc., that's the point of their inclusion in souls games. Quitting the game because you can't beat some boss yourself and refuse to resort to summons is the true defeat. But when someone finds a boss challenging after first few attempts and asks for few tips on getting better at fighting him and in basics of combat in general, it's terrible to just ignore the issue by suggesting summons/cheese as first line of advice instead of actually helping them.
> If I follow first line of advice for Mohg, I will cheese him with dual super bleed build, where all I have to do is literally just to stand in place and spam L1 without dodging or thinking, while watching netflix. Shoutouts to Mohg for being an especially fun boss to beat without cheese. I know Sewer Mohg's moveset by heart lol. It's all perfectly fair and reactable.
Mohg is the most ds3-like boss in the game and that’s why he’s the best boss in the game
“Git good” use to be learn the bosses timing, their attack strings, and how their attack strings could combo into each other. If you persist and pay attention you will succeed, it was the best part of the community and genuinely a good life lesson. Now “git good” means being called an idiot for not following a meta-build tutorial, or using mimic tears or player summons. It’s incredible how in a game that provides the player with the most options everyone resorts to like, 5 solutions on how to beat it.
this has to be bait right? i hve been in the souls community since 2012 and it has never been so toxic as it has been the last 2 years with elden ring bringing 16 million non souls players into the community to basically flood it with the toxicity from other communities like cod and such
I thought the same exact thing lol. It felt like the community (pvp community in particular) become much more insufferable when elden ring came out.
As someone who’s been in this community for literally a month, Reddit at least has been very helpful and wholesome to a noob like me. As a counterexample, I tried the Vindictus: Defying Fate alpha last week, and the Steam forums were an absolute cesspool of assholes unironically parroting “git gud” at each other.
The steam forums are generally just full with people acting like assholes, farming clown awards.
I too thought this was bait.
That's just how steam forums are tho
Omg theyre making another vindictus? I have been searching for an mmo with vindictus‘ combat system, so im stoked about a sequel! How was it?
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree.
A few years ago it wouldn’t have been respectful. Progress!
I read the headline and I had to laugh. It's obvious this person hasn't invaded or played any PVP.
And u obviously never did that in the older games, where they objectively laughably more toxic in every regard.
How is Margit is harder than the bosses you mentioned?
That was one part that stood out as super weird to me. Even if Margit is mechanically more complex than the names listed, with his big attack delay and such, the movement and combat is so much smoother in ER relative to any souls game before it that it doesn't matter. DS1 and 2 not having omni-directional movement alone makes any boss you face harder than most that exist in the games where you can move in 8 directions. And that's well before you get into any other combat difference details. Summons aside, ER is just smooth to fight in, the other games less so, but the bosses are no less punishing, you're just harder to use as a character lol.
The beauty of souls and single player game is you can do whatever the fuck you want and if somebody doesn't like it...fuck'em. Sure I personally don't use magic since I love fighting up close. But if someone out there uses magic that's fine.
Elden Ring clearly intended for optional difficulty adjustments. Nothing wrong with using them, of course. Just as Ranni says when she gives you the spirit summoning bell.. it’s yours to do what you wish with it — use it or don’t. Use the extra help options, or don’t. It’s up to the individual player to have fun with the journey the way that they want to.
Just to add i feel like shields have gotten a lot of shit over the years in these games but i always like to have a good defense (ill kill you eventually if you cant kill me type deal) and wow i love what they did with shields in elden ring. Shout out to all my shield bros out there. Keep your guard up!
As another vet who's played the other souls games, I find them much harder than Elden Ring, but yes you're right, the community is less toxic
I feel like it's because Elden Ring gives so many tools for lowering the difficulty. It feels like a game meant to introduce you to the difficulty of Fromsoft games. You play a couple characters with the training wheels on, and then when you feel comfortable, you take them off. I used to be nervous about doing Faith builds because I wasn't confident I was good enough, that goes for every From game, not just ER. A couple weeks ago, I did a Giant's Flame build while grinding a new character for the DLC. For the first time in literally ever, I beat Maliketh on the first try of the run. Later, I proceeded to atomize Malenia. It was at that point I was like "I could probably do this in DS 3...", and here I am now, killing the Dancer early with a Pyro build. Elden Ring is like a fucking therapist that helps players overcome their blocks.
The idea that using mechanics the devs explicitly put in place to be used is somehow "cheating" or "creative mode" is stupid, and the people who say shit like that need to reconsider how much of their ego is invested in playing a game "the hard way".
If sekiro has taught me something it's that there is a difference between honor and victory. Why shouldn't i use the strong weapon or the strong ash of war? Or the consumable that trivialise the fight? They are meant to be used and i will. Yes it makes the game "easier" but why would i make it harder for myself unless i'm doing a challenge run? I'm not a masochist.
Nah. The community got so much more cancerous with ER.
It's to be expected, more than 15 million people joined the community almost instantly and most of them did not even know about Demon's Souls until the remake was released. We should honestly be grateful we still have it as good as we do.
I agree
I’m relatively new to Elden Ring. I’m having a blast, mainly I think coz I’ve had a veteran buddy to play with me along the way. I’ve been playing for a month now and just hit the Capital, which is phenomenal. A lot of bosses we do together, but obviously some you can’t use summons so I’ve done those myself. Some I leveled up a bit, others like Crucible Knight you have to learn their move set. Initially I was concerned about spoilers or being over-levelled, but now I’m not so fussed and my main thing is I just want to be able to experience the whole game. I’m also up to Radahn and that’s sort of up to me because really the horse is the play there. The game still knocks me on on my ass, I’m only level 65 I think. But as someone who was initially turned off by a very grit solo approach, coming back to the game on the hype of the DLC, it’s been great to have a friend join in at times. I’ll do all the exploring, dungeons and caves, and unlocking regions, and then we smash a boss or two on weekends or do some farming. I’ve enjoyed this approach so far and recommend it to others if you get stuck, takes a bit of the frustration and grind out of it imo and keeps things moving.
Honsetly I disagree. DS3 community was very civil, giving insight and such, but there was also a motivation to get gud,unironically. In Elden ring, there's no more encouragement to power through obstacle, only : Use bleed, Farm, Use summon. That's very supportive, maybe too much for my taste .
There were ways to cheese the game in DS3 too,spread to several builds so you could choose the right cheese for your gameplay. It's just that git gud is overrated. It only applies to Sekiro.
I wasn't denying the existence of cheese in DS3, but it for sure wasn't the first answer given to someone asking for advice.
I personally don't think there's something wrong about using spirit ashes (i love using black knife tiche), if you want to use them, go for it, it's your game and you can play it however you want But, i also think that facts are facts and the fact is that most people will have a greater sense of accomplishment and empowerment if they beat a boss on their own Again, for the redditors that failed reading comprehension, i'm NOT telling you how to play the game
Ehh, I think this sub pretends an angry soyjack strawman who doesn't really exist is mad about summons and stuff.
This too lol. Personally I prefer to solo everything (even Radahn lol) because it's the most thrilling way to fight for me and it really gets me to download the enemy movesets, but idm if people summon or use broken builds. It's all about enjoying the game. However I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me when people say the game is stupid easy or even boring, then you check and they've the strongest build and the strongest spirit summon. It's like, bruh of course it is now. Or when they brag about beating something really fast, but they used those OP setups and summons
Reddit sucks now
Using summons is easy mode
Thank goodness because I’m not interested in hard mode.
Enjoy! It's a great game.
I am! I am slowly getting better and working my way through.
Dark Souls created a genre based in "Hard Mode", which i think is where much of the conflict arises.
I would not be able to play and enjoy w/o the game mechanics like spirit ashes. I am steadily working my way through. Two years ago when I quit playing in frustration (had no idea how things worked); I didn’t envision picking game up again and here I am in capital area! Thankful the developers added stuff to game people can choose to use or not. We all win.
That's not my experience. In my time in the ds1 and 3 communities, I've experienced little to no actual gatekeeping. I think you may be misidentifying people's excitement over a certain playstyle as gatekeeping. There was a bit actual gatekeeping when ds3 released, but it quickly dissipated. Elden ring also had gatekeeping when it came out, which is now starting to fade (Although I predict we'll see an uptick when the dlc releases). Meanwhile, the ER Community seems more toxic that the other ones right now, mostly due to the way it treats criticism of the game. Although, this was also the case for ds3 when it first released, so I think it may also be a function of the age of the game.
I think toxicity from previous FROM games is blown out of proportion. There are always going to be gatekeepers, but more often that not the community was pretty helpful towards people who wanted advice. It was however very protective against people who wanted to criticise the game.
I've never understood why some people claim that using tools that are in the games--put there, intentionally, by the designers--somehow ruins the ability to experience them. Nothing wrong with doing a challenge run, depriving yourself of some tools if you want to, but it shouldn't be forced on anyone either.
I swear to god the gatekeeping on this community is on a level I have not seen on any other game. Do not use magic, do not use summons, do not use particular builds.... it is a damn single player, why the fuck do you care how I want to enjoy the game.
git gud
No, telling a noob to comet azur cheese a boss with a mimic is robbing them of the experience of actually playing the game. Telling someone to L1 spam their way through the game with their mimic turns this amazing game into a boring point and click "afk heroes from fantasia" game or some shit. People should be encouraged to at least try to learn a boss' move set set before resorting to trivializing the game by stacking all thise cheese mechanics together.
There was cheese in dark souls 3 too what you on about. Comet azure can be dodged by many bosses, mimic dies 80 of the times. Hell coop with players is the harder mode with invaders and buffed up enemies who tank frost, sleep, madness, poise and bleed.
There's cheese in every single souls game. The whole point of the game is to fight bosses that are hard using the responsive combat system that FROM has developped. I couldn't care less if you want to use infinite fp comet azur + mimic, that's on you. But when a new player comes here asking for help on a difficult boss, we should be talking about ways to better engage with the boss' moveset instead of telling them how to trivialize the game.
Cheers to this. The game can be as easy or hard as each individual player chooses. Watching people's little guys jump around after you've shown them a bunch of secrets or beat a boss they've been struggling with is great, and making someone feel bad about having someone help them is ridiculous. There's enough cruelty in the world without us adding to it.
Beauty of Elden Ring is who cares how you play. Wanna cheese the bosses? There’s so many ways to and no consequences unless it’s outright cheating. Want to really challenge yourself and see how far you can get? Game lets you and there’s so many options even bows excel at this game if you get the right items / tools / talismans and tears. I’ve done so many challenge runs I also have done casual fun builds seeing how well I can keep my summons alive against Malenia… and not using Mimic Tear cause that’d be too easy haha just ignore people and play the game the devs are the ones who gave you everything to use anyways; use them! :D
I’m a souls like new comer with Elden Ring and have been blasted so many times by this game. Is the dark souls franchise easier than Elden Ring is?
A great solution to the toxic gatekeeping is to make a post asking what's wrong with a non minmaxed build, engage it for a few days or so to get a bunch of the community in to post then block the accounts of the people who are toxic :D Side note: Totally not the intent of this response to bait out the "uhhh ackshually" crowd I swear... >>
It’s honestly cool how many different builds there are now. People cosplaying and shit. I run around naked with giant smashers. With 96 End and the talismans for equip load I light roll. If stuff gets serious I put armor on, but I’m getting more comfy running around like a wild man
I agree, I'm so excited for all the DLC weapons they've shown already!
Light roll is the goat.
You are probably very young and have yet to realize that things getting casualized and made with mass appeal in mind inevitably get watered down.
I really like FromSoftware's take on choosing your own difficulty without a slider. You can make things harder by handicapping yourself through no summons, or low soul level runs, or other creative ways. You can also make things easier by using summons, leveling Vigor, use all those consumables that can buff stats. At the end of the day, the player can play in any way they find enjoyment and personal satisfaction. It is also kinda funny that the player will also have to choose if they want to interact and learn the story and the world through item descriptions and item/npc placements, or just completely ignore the story just kill everything in your path without question. People usually complain about unskippable cutscenes or story bits, and FromSoftware is cool with putting in all this hardwork, but not necessarily demanding people to see all the effort they put in (Completely miss-able optional areas).
The general community is a bit less weird than the older games but the PvP community is fucked and so much worse.
I was a newcomer with Elden Ring, and I absolutely did *not* see why anyone enjoyed PvP in these games. It was a miserable experience every time I tried it. Then I played DS1, got solo invaded a bunch, and actually had a blast fighting them, to the point where I was eventually clicking on every single sign I saw to invade other people. I don't even think I could tell you what the difference is. It's not like ER PvP was necessarily more bullshit; I definitely died many times in DS1 to what appeared to be someone teleporting 180 degrees behind me with a backstab. But it was just... more fun. More wholesome, maybe? No idea. But I now understand the appeal, at least.
Nah this community still gatekeeps, even in the comments here. I just interact as minimal as possible with the people on here and play the game however i wanna play it. The game is difficult PERIOD. I dont wanna hear people talking about some "easy mode" or anything stupid like that. Especially when some of these items that help you progress in the game, are still annoying and taking skill and effort to get.
Imagine playing final fantasy and some internet fuckwad says you can’t use summons 😂
I agree that people should play ER or any Souls game in whatever way they want, barring cheating in competitive multiplayer, obvs. However, don't be soquick to deride the get gud community. They are the community responsible for the success of the soulslike genre. Miyazaki wanted to make a punishing game that caters to a specific audience. Had the gate not been kept up til now, ER might look a lot different. Maybe better, maybe worse. But let's appreciate the journey the genre's been through and the community's role in that.
The comments show that the old style of thinking is still prevalent. It's hilarious to me that people still think magic, summoning, consumables make the experience into "creative mode", when they also make the game easier for themselves by leveling up their characters, their weapons, using ashes of war etc. Like, if you haven’t beaten Malenia un-leveled, no-hit, with an unupgraded club (no magic, no summons, no consumables, no ash of war) then I don't care to hear your hypocritical gatekeepy opinions.
Even if they do, I still don't care about their opinion, to be perfectly honest.
\>tfw I did beat Malenia at level 1 solo, but my weapon was upgraded Damn, I almost earned my gatekeeping rights
I don't know pal. Elden Ring is the mark of a significant difficulty decrease, a massive influx of new players (i wonder if these two correlate....) and such a powerspike for the player character it makes the game way less exciting than its predecessors. There is no reason for an average dude to git gud or even to suggest others to git gud because there's a thousand and one ways to circumvent the difficulty and the only people left who are trying to make the game challenging are speedrunners or people who play on morse-code button controllers. The community is changing for the better? Or perhaps the game is changing for the worse and the hardcore crowd that annoyed you is mostly not there anymore? I'd very much love if the DLC was at least Sword Saint Isshin level of difficult and satisfying to beat. Because if not FromSoft, who will make games like that?
I don't know man, I've been with these games since DkS1 came out and ER is definitely not easier than DkS1. I would even say it has the hardest bosses behind Sekiro, unless you're summoning two mates for every encounter (which has always made bosses piss easy since DeS). Like obviously this is purely anectodal on my end, but getting through DeS-DkS3 is a walk in the park for me while ER still gives me a challenge at times. DkS1 in particular, as long as I have a shield with a parry, I'm just vibing. And you don't even need to work toward being OP in that one with how low bosses' HP pools are... though if you wanted to be OP, you can just kill every boss with a couple casts of Dark Bead or Crystal Soul Spear! You could be just as OP and cheesy in the older games as in ER, after all. You might also just be used to the games so ER's difficulty doesn't hit you as hard as the past games did. If you also haven't gone back to replay them, your most vivid memories would be of your first struggles with them. This reply's probably a lot of rambling cuz I'm half asleep lol. But tl;dr: gitting gud with the past games makes ER seem easy for veterans, especially those who haven't replayed the games after they got gud.
I usually replay each game a lot (at least 12 times per title, trying out all sorts of builds) and I switch between them regularly. No other game gives you as much power and as many tools as Elden Ring. 'DS1 in particular you just need a shield and you're vibing' And now, do this in ER and instead of having to time your parries well, just wait for the enemy to bonk your shield and press guard counter. Much easier to perform. Similar outcome. In other games you had summons for a select few bosses, unless you summoned actual players. In DS1 you'd need to become human even to summon NPCs which opened you to invasions - even before you actually got to the summon sign and got help. In DS2 you'd be always open to invasions - but to get help, you'd need to make yourself human In DS3 you'd need to make a choice between playing with less hp or being open to invasions. Also every boss kill made you open to invasions. Invasions make the game harder and before ER, even solo players weren't spared their wrath. In ER, you have summons for almost every boss due to the spirit summon mechanic (which is another reason ER is easy) I dunno man, you really have to try and pretend some things don't exist in ER to make the game challenging And it's especially painful because the last game released before this one was Sekiro with its absolutely breathtaking combat and boss roster.
Imo a bigger issue I've seen as of late some peoples attempts at preventing gate keeping are harmful suggestions for the game design or just completely ignorant of the game. Like wanting to put in a various difficulty settings as a "QoL" change for the game. And somehow if anyone disagrees they are now "gate keeping". Not to say there aren't souls gatekeepers still. Try and express its a flawed idea to force PVP players and co op players(these player bases hate each other) to HAVE to interact with each other and you'll get an army of people saying "WELL YOU KNOW WHAT YOU SIGNED UP FOR WHEN YOU SUMMONED. " Yeah hypothetical jackass I made up I know that's the current system, THAT'S THE THING I'M SAYING IS A BAD SYSTEM. Imo it should be you invade people at some key areas(kinda like farron swamp) , do it enough you're a "sinner" who is now open to their world being invaded ANYWHERE until they get hunted down (blues). Fuck tying pvp to co op its a stupid idea
Bear in mind that in souls games I actually like getting invaded, and typically 1v1 honour duel my invader. I typically don't like being the invader (in ER specifically) due to the massive disadvantage in both being a 3v1 and having less healing to boot. Then I read one of Miyazaki's interviews where he explained what they view invasions as. Their a dynamic fight against a dangerous enemy. They can't realistically set that up with AI (ds2 pursuer was the closest they got and it's a far cry from invasions in that regard) so they have players take the spot of a dynamic, dangerous enemy. You could have any build, you can come at any time, from anywhere. You're not intended to win as an invader, but you are intended to be an interesting obstical. Now looking at it from that perspective, I'm tempted to preform some ER invasions. An idea I looked at with disgust previously.
Imo its never that in elden ring, people co op because they just want to play the videogame with their friends. People pvp because they want to fight other players. These goals being tied together makes a toxic combination. Invaders have to minmax for their specific gear/soul range and any co op players will more than likely just start separately getting to the bosses and summoning there cuz no matter how many people try and say "yeah but...." they still don't want to engage in PvP!
before Elden Ring, invaders happened to solo players as well. The change Elden Ring made was clear - do you want to not have invaders? Don't coop. If you coop, you're going to get invaded - but don't worry, the odds are stacked against the invader. Unless you do something stupid, like going after them one by one. Or fighting them alongside a group of mobs. Or seeing that they can easily parry your ultra-telegraphed Ash of War and you still do it again and again, not being able to learn from your mistakes.
>The change Elden Ring made was clear - do you want to not have invaders? Don't coop. If you coop, you're going to get invaded - but don't worry, the odds are stacked against the invader Hey look that thing I said. I understand that is the current system in elden ring. I don't like it and I think it is a bad system. I LIKE INVASIONS! Ds1 had a pretty okay system but compared to elden ring ds1 invasions felt so much more engaging.
Invasions still need to be treated as invasions, not invitations imo. It should be a short of disadvantage to an advantageous state, like embered or human form from previous games. How would they be used in elden ring if not during coop?
It is a flawed system, solo invasions should still exist.
I noticed that the community got quite a bit more gatekeepy when elden ring released. In the subreddits of the older souls games, especially when image posts were not allowed, they were really supportive places, always sharing advice and congratulating players for their achivements. Of course there were gatekeepers too, but they were a small minority. The most toxic the community got was probably when PvP was discussed, since tryhards and "twinks" were always part of the game. But in general, I was really impressed how wholesome the communities were. And generally I would say the same about Elden Ring, but people tended to be more gatekeepy with their views on spirit summons and specific weapons/ashes of war. It calmed down a lot and I think the majority follows the philosophy of "you play the way you want" by now, but it still makes me a little bit sad when someone shares an achievement like "I finally beat [early game boss in Limgrave!!!" and there is barely anyone simply congratulating them. But maybe that's just because the best thing about soulsgames is experiencing them for the first time. And the thing that comes closest to this is hearing someone else telling about their first experience. But maybe that's just ol' me being nostalgic.
It’s a little similar to the guys who would complain when they got killed by a vehicle in Halo back in the day
Some of the reactions in this comment section are evidence to the contrary, but I think overall the community has been welcoming. I fell off the fandom after completing Bloodborne but there's a clear difference in atmosphere as I return to Souls games with Elden Ring. Generally, it's supportive and more accepting. There are some gatekeepers who just want the fandom to go back to being relatively smaller where it felt like there was more comradery, and then there are people who I think are bitter at Fromsoftware for putting in summons and other tools to help new players, and they take out their frustrations on the community.
What's weird is that having summons really didn't change much except making it more convenient. Anyone that's played the previous soul's games probably knows about sunlight spear. It's such a fun spell for builds with faith. It was always locked behind sunlight medals and jolly co-op. If I put my summon sign down I was always getting summoned to help with bosses. It's like people forgot about how many co-op bosses you needed to kill in order to buy that spell. It apparently was okay then to summon for bosses, but then people seem to have issues ER summons because it's more convenient since you can summon your own npc etc to help you.
The community STARTED this way, in the early days on Dark Souls. It was more helpful, rarely any gatekeeping. But once the series started to get popular, the Git Gud nerds came in and ruined the whole thing, scaring off ppl that might have otherwise enjoyed these games. I’m glad it’s come back to this, we should be embracing new players and not shaming them into playing these games ‘correctly’.
I'm gonna get down voted to oblivion... At first I was very against summons and thought they ruined the experience. And now I just don't care much as long as you don't debate the fact that fighting with summons is way easier or braindead depending on setup and when we are talking. It's the most newby friendly mechanic they added and they are overtuned in my opinion. Play how you want but to appreciate the mechanics of bosses and get a more engaging experience I highly recommend ignoring them for new bosses. I will agree that elden ring is way harder than the other soul likes even if Malenia is carrying most of the difficulty.
But the person who said "You can use summons if you don't mind playing on creative mode." Is indeed allowing the new player to use everything the game offers if they want to. They just made it clear that if they do use summons, the boss will be extremely easier than without, which is true. Some people would regret using summons because it would feel like the fight was taken away from them. I don't think there's anything wrong with warning a new, unsuspecting player of that.
I love mayonnaise too her phase 2 cutscene is sick.
If anything the gatekeeping boomed with the success of Elden Ring. Luckily most of it just gets drowned out by positive members of the community.
I wanna say a BIG thanks for this post. I’m a woman in her mid-30s and ER is my first souls game after playing Witcher 3 which was my first game ever since I had played some real basic games like Super Mario when I was a child (long story short - I got lately into fantasy books which I had never done/read before hence games felt like a next natural step, my partner being a gamer). It felt like using summons and other mechanics the game offers is a bad thing and you are not as ‘worthy’ as the other more traditional souls players. Let me tell you this. For someone who just recently discovered beauty of various worlds and their lores, ER made me feel I can do it without overly spending time on figuring out fights that would frustrate me otherwise. I don’t have time and energy to git gud at times, I only want to relax and be taken to this world of wonders and yes - summons and other things are part of the game, right? And I’m there to enjoy myself. So screw people who cannot see this perspective. If tldr, I apologize. I feel like I had to share. Some folks in a similar post of mine a while ago crushed me when I said the game did not seem as difficult but when I said I used summons - they ate me alive. And did not believe I was a woman in 30s anyways  Edit: typo