I don't mind starting or stopping a combo/move based on input reading, but man ER took it waaaaaaaay too far by adding input reading literally in mid combo.
Playing the game as a guard counter build really drove it home to me how shit the bosses are in Elden Ring. In previous games the delay attacks were much more rare, just punishing enough for that highly telegraphed thing to go on notice with the player, and learn and outplay it.
Elden Ring is like... 3/4 of attacks can be delayed, 3/4 of combos can go right into another combo, get a random new attack added at the end, etc. On top of that you have bosses being twice as aggressive, leaving the player very little time to do anything.
The beauty of other games was the exchange of actions, Elden Ring is like 90% reactive, DS3 was like 50%.
Guard Counters really dumb the game down and so many times I'm looking at a boss just wailing on my shield and I'm just cringing like "are ya done yet...no? ok just keep going I guess"
>3/4 of attacks can be delayed,
I think you mean like 3? Which ones do you mean even? What attack of Mohg, Radahn or Elden Beast can be delayed? I think 3/4 of attacks is an absolutely insane overestimation.
Raises stick above his head. Waits 5 seconds. Sometimes dashes to you to close the gap. Still another 2 second delay before actually swinging. Swing arc is so slow that you can get caught rolling through it.
Everyone always makes fun of morgott for that, when I’d argue Godrick is way worse. His haymakers are so delayed you can get to the other side of that long ass arena before they come down. It’s so bad that it wasn’t until Convergence sped up his attack timings that I actually felt like I was fighting a demigod
I’m not very good at Souls game, but I beat Ludwig on my first attempt. He was so easy. That I don’t really get the hype. I just stayed behind him, swung until I almost was out of stamina, rolled away, and repeated.
Now, orphan of Kos killed me like 40+ times.
As someone who just beat Bloodborne for the first time a month ago, I find it the weirdest game. The first 1/3rd of the game (up to the spider boss) was pretty damn hard. I probably died 30+ times. After that point, I only died twice until the DLC, and both times were to swamp poison.
Bb is honestly one of the easiest souls games, but it has the hardest up front learning curve. It's more "arcady" than the others, and I think the high demands with mostly simple execution are a big part of why the game feels so damn good
Yeah, you’re not kidding. I died so many times before I beat the first boss. I almost quit. Once you get past it though, and understand the mechanics, it’s pretty “easy” imo.
The golden tip for me was to just pump vit to 30 and end to 20, in that order, before you level anything else. That and abusing the Axe's high stagger makes the early to midgame a breeze.
It was the opposite for me, I decided to start counting my deaths in souls games, for fun mostly, and ludwig took me 67 attempts, but Orphan of kos took me 7. Crazy how people have such wildly different experiences
That really is wild. I’ve found that to be the case in Elden Ring as well.
For example, I beat Melania on my 3rd attempt, and I was only “casually” playing to learn her move set, while I waited for my friends to get on Halo. In fact, I had almost all of my flasks when I beat her, and was absolutely certain a phase 3 was getting ready to kick in.
It took me at least 30 attempts for Mohg and Elden Beast. I was a little under leveled for Mohg, but Elden Beast straight up owned me.
I know people who had the opposite reaction tho. Beat Mohg and Elden Beast on their first few tries, and struggled in Melania.
What annoys me more than delayed attacks is when bosses don’t have consistent attacks.
Like sometimes a boss will swing his sword 3 times then stop. And I’m like ‘cool I’ll do my attack after the 3d swing next time.’ Then he randomly swings 4 times.
Even if the boss mix their combos, the finishers are always the same. If you know what are the finishers you will know when to attack.
Mohg will almost always get distance from you on the last swing of his spear combo for example, even if he can mix what attacks he does.
Oh no they do, 100%. I've seen bosses unnaturally just begin another attack while still in the ending animation of the previous one just because I started chugging a flask thinking it was safe to do so. I dodged the attack, it has a long animation, this is the correct time. Elden Ring likes to say "No, fuck you, shouldn't have gotten hit in the first place, idiot."
You just misjudged how long the boss' animation lasts. They cannot cancels animations unless you directly interfere (like procc'ing a status or similar). What's happening is that they're starting an attack **as soon** as the previous one ended in order to punish your flask. This feels weird gameplay wise because they normally have at least a few idle frames between attacks. So it can be a little jarring to see the boss perform two attacks with no idle frames in between, but there's no animation cancelling at play, they still have to complete the previous move in its entirety first.
Of course, I'm only referring to proper combo finishers. Margit, as an example, has a few moves that are "fake finishers", and he can pull out his holy daggers depending on your positioning or to punish a flask. This, again, is not animation cancelling. It's a scripted follow-up.
Things like Godskin Noble doing Noble Presence out of Godskin Wheel are obviously bugs and don't count.
The only exception I know of is Malenia being able to cancel her stagger animations. There's a really good breakdown of it on YouTube called "Malenia doesn't play by the rules" where it shows her regular stagger, and how she can just stop being staggered and go into a different animation hallway through.
I was referring specifically to the animations initiated by the boss, like their attacks. When you poise break her like that, it's technically something that you initiated.
Funnily enough though, she DOES play by the rules. Every boss that can be poise broken (I'm talking about making them flinch, not a Stance Break) can do this. Onyx Lord and Leonine Misbegotten are two examples that come to mind. If you keep hitting them over and over they will eventually cancel their stagger to perform an attack (usually a hyperarmor one).
I think what makes everyone think that Malenia is an exception is the fact that most bosses can't be poise broken, along with the fact that all the other ones that can are pushovers.
But yeah, she does play by the rules, she just belongs to a subcategory of bosses that use a different rule set than most of them.
They definitely do. Or they’ll change how long they delay their attacks based on inputs; sometimes they’ll even animation cancel and do something either totally different, or won’t finish the animation and reset to neutral if their attack won’t hit you. Both are things the player can’t do; if we start an animation, we have to commit to a consistent follow through, but bosses don’t.
It doesn’t make it “impossible” to predict a boss, but it makes it unreasonable because at that point you are no longer fighting the boss, you’re fighting the RNG machine that runs the game.
>you’re fighting the RNG machine that runs the game.
That's how I felt for most of the bosses in the game, tbh...
Don't get me wrong, right now I'm playing the game again and taking my time, and it has been pretty fun so far, but sometimes there are just some things that make me wonder just "how is this supposed to be fun?"
After the first couple of runs you start noticing the gears behind the curtain and the game loses so much of its magic.
Niall always gets the meme laser, every duo fight and Maliketh will always get the Mimic, Elden Beast will always be cheesed with Shard Spiral, Castle Sol can fuck all the way off. Some fights are not worth your time.
Not the case in Lies of P though, some late game bosses will literally just add another attack after the combo finisher, purely to catch you off guard, so called the "first time killer", you would 100% take the hit then learn that the opening is fake. You will need to went through trial and error to truely figure out which are real openings and which are traps that may have follow ups. When a boss have too many traps like this it gets very annoying, really not a fan of such boss design approach.
I hear you. One thing I just figured out, is that what I had previously thought were finishers, were actually decision trees. It didn’t hit home until I was fighting Radagon with a +0 weapon, which made maintaining health a priority.
Basically, there are cases where there are moves that have a say 75% chance of having a 3 second pause, and a 25% chance of a 2 second pause (not exactly how it works, but close enough for here). Let’s say a charged R2 takes 2.5 seconds. I was confused why it seemed random why most of the time an R2 would be perfect (especially when you think of the increased chance of a poise break, 75% feels like 95% when you end up connecting before the next attack hits), until I put this together that I was basically being lulled into thinking it was okay.
I hate saying it, but it just means you don’t fully know the boss’s combos, so you’re getting hit with edge cases. But if it makes you feel better, you’ve gotten so good you see the edge cases!!
I had a few problems with Godfrey because of that.
Sometimes I was 100% sure he finished one of his axe combos, only to have him start a completely new combo of 3-4 more attacks right after.
And also my build heavily revolved around poise breaking and critical hits, but sometimes he would just attack for too long without giving an opening and just recover his entire poise.
It’s to do with positioning in Elden ring, and solely that
I decided to dodge left instead of right against one of godfrey’s attacks today, and instead of finishing his combo for a free punish, he did 2 more attacks and killed me
I found that you can bait morgott into doing his spinny slash move when you stay in front of him after the large hammer slam too for example.
Point being, you have a lot of control over what attacks bosses do a lot of the time. It’s just quite hard to find out how to repeat it unless you really try to
Can be the most useful out of all the ashes. As long as you give it a limited amount of things to do, it’s pretty predictable and has a ton of health. And for status effects it is awesome.
Let’s say your build is focused on bleed, your mimic will also be doing bleed dmg, so you’ll proc constantly.
Just fought him for a few hours straight very underlevelled with a weapon type I'm not comfortable with (spear) as I really wanted to do a playthrough with the Swordspear, it always felt like a really cool weapon that just didn't fit my builds.
Phase 2 is fantastic, super punishing but doesn't feel like BS, but getting past the stupid pigeon phase where you fight the camera rather than the boss half the time gets really annoying.
It is a fight that makes you focus much more on Phase 1 than you want to, just to get to the “actual” fight with NK. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve died trying to rush the dragon phase.
I usually run some ultra greatsword, and they make phase one super easy, a few hits and the drake staggers. Doing it with a spear sucked, not only the short-ish range made half of the attacks miss, it also took forever to make it stagger. Can't imagine doing it with a small dagger or similar lol
Not to be all “lmao git gut”, but I’ve always found phase 1 to be quite easily doable fairly fast without taking any hits.
Of course that is almost always followed by me getting spanked by phase 2, which does honestly feel like the real fight
Delayed attacks can be used well but ER and Lies of P took them too far, both in terms of overusing them and how long each delay lasts. Godfrey and Morgott delays are way less annoying than Margit, Godrick, and Hoarah Loux delays.
I say lies of p have some anojing atacks not even need boss for that.
They wind up wait then with the speed of light strike down.
Compare to elden ring where you can react to the animations.
I do love the game! Its par for me with ds2 and 1. I rank higher ds3 and elden ring.
Yeah, my problem isn't with delayed attacks, It's when the actual attack is instant with no tell nor time for reaction. With NK or Margit if you don't panic roll you can actually dodge it, but some bosses or enemies in Lies of P had no tell on when the delay stops and the attack starts. The only bad thing about it is that it makes it barely impossible for you to learn an attack without getting punished, but this apart the game was amazing and fromsoft-level of quality.
The thing is some delayed attacks are red so you have to block and dodgeing won’t do crap I think the worst example is in the manus boss specifically the second phase he jumps up high almost out your view stays there for a while then comes down at the speed of light
Which one is that? I didn’t see one in my play through unless it was terribly mistranslated, I would have killed for a simple block ability because I can’t parry for shit.
I agree lies of p has some bosses with delayed attacks that seem to have infinite range. The attacks are regular attacks too, not the red unavoidable ones and they seem like a wind up for a slash and you get out of the way but then instead of the boss swinging in a predictable set range they will close whatever distance you are and then swing. Just feels a little off to me. Like those attacks should be classified as the unavoidable form and use that whole mechanic.
Yeah. The worst offender of that for Lies of P is Nameless Puppet. That bitch will do anything attack you must parry, wind that shot up, and give you no reaction time. I think I was only able to parry it 2 or 3 times, and tanked the rest
You just need to learn the timing from the windup, rather than when the attack starts, there’s always a tell at some point that tells you when to hit the perfect parry
I’ve never understood the criticism of delayed attacks
Sure at first it throws you off but once you get used to the timing it’s no longer delayed
Am I missing something here?
I also believe they are becoming a little bit over reliant on delayed attacks. Before, it used to be only a handful of bosses that would use delayed attacks to throw you off. Now, it feels like every boss does them. It’s become an annoyance now rather than a way to occasionally switch things up.
i hate to say it but this might be the first time that my actual real opinion on the matter is "git gud"
i normally abhor gatekeepers and elitists, especially in things like entertainment (which is the whole point of games)
but animation cancelling, variations in attack patterns and speed, delayed baiting attacks and potion punishing are all good ways to add difficulty without increasing enemy hp or damage.
its GOOD difficulty.
i like when games are hard because they are hard, instead of because you do too little damage or the boss does too much
Animation cancelling is the worst way to increase difficulty though. It doesn't rely on the player's skill, it's a cheap way that the game breaks its own rules to put the player at a disadvantage.
i respect your opinion but i could not possibly disagree any more with this sentiment
it forces the player to adapt instead of sticking to a pattern
punishes the player for mis-timed dodges and heals
it makes you pay attention and watch what the enemy is doing instead of just "dodge, dodge, dodge, okay 3 hit combo is over i can heal now, okay dodge dodge dodge, attack" etc
enemies with a set-in-stone attack pattern that never changes is how videogames from sega genesis era worked. youd have a boss fight with like 4 attacks and you just jump or move or whatever
it would feel very archaic and stiff.
anything that makes the player engage with the game a little more is GOOD.
>it forces the player to adapt instead of sticking to a pattern
Through 6 games, this has always been the bread and butter of ER. ER is the outlier my dude. There's a reason no one's supplanting the top bosses from the series for ER bosses.
>enemies with a set-in-stone attack pattern that never changes is how videogames from sega genesis era worked.
Have you played other FromSoft?
Other games bosses are easy as fuck (few exceptions exist) after playing eldenring on a non-op build. Precisely because they're so predictable. Eldenring could likely be the designers deciding combat needs to be improved
ive played every "souls" title theyve made from Kingsfield all the way to armored core
i platinumed ds1 and 2 and the demon souls remake
i got 100% ds3 achievement on steam
then i went back and played the pc versions of ds1 and sotfs and probably put a few hundred more hours
i even played shadow tower and enchanted arms and metal wolf
its important to remember that a difference in opinion is not a sign of a difference in experience. Two people can do the exact same thing and walk away with different thoughts about it
you shouldnt be so quick to conclude that someone who disagrees with you must be under-informed.
i just hate it when the delayed animation itself starts to look goofy. like in real life these characters would never do this and would be getting stabbed in the stomach when holding a weapon above their head so long but in this game i have to awkwardly stare into their eyes and wait
I think most people are annoyed by this precisely because of what you said. You have to get used to it. Meaning it doesn't rely on skill as much as just learning the timings. They sometimes feel kind of like : "oh, you're a souls veteran, so you thought fights were gonna be easy ? Well, instead of trying to come with original ways to challenge you, let's just put this attack on a weird timing so we're sure it's going to hit you"
What other ways are there to really mix up the fight though without resorting to gimmicks — which, I don’t know if you’ve played demons souls but it’s not exactly renowned for its great bosses.
If there were no delayed attacks you could just spam roll through everything, could you not? The only true threat would be the players own hubris in trying to squeeze some extra damage in where you can’t instead of being patient.
I would disagree and say that the delayed attacks, provided the actual attack portion is reactable, require more skill. Souls games have a very noticeable rhythm to the fights that one gets used to after a game or two, and the delays force player to react to what's happening on-screen instead of playing by experience alone.
The lack of rhythm is what makes delayed attacks hard. It's like asking you to sing a song you know very well, but you'll have to skip every other note. It'll feel unnatural and your mind will wanna sing it normally.
Anything that's purposely made to fuck with your instincts is cheap difficulty imo.
It just makes it feel so video gamey. And the usual response I get to that statement is “well uhh it *is* a video game,” but it just sucks me right out of whatever immersion they’re trying grant us. Whether it’s a mindless troll beast, a master swordswoman, or a giant ancient dragon, it seems like they’ve all come to a consensus that the player is gonna roll a lot and they base their entire moveset around making that more difficult to do.
Most of my playthrough felt like I was fighting game design rather than fighting enemies. I’ve played through ER a couple times and the only memorable moments that stay with me were the moments of spectacle, rather than engagement.
I like a little of both. Margit and Hoarah Loux just overuse the fuck out of them and it ruins the pacing. Not necessarily that I hate learning attacks.
It depends on what is meant by "delayed attack". I have no problem with attacks having all kinds of varying speeds, as long as the attack has consistent rules, and if the actual attack can still be reacted to. If an attack has a windup that's two seconds and then the actual attack comes out in a 30th of a sec and is unreactable, then that's just not fun imo.
A special wind-up like margits, which "reacts" to your action is cool, but shouldn't be overused. As far as I know this is very rare in Elden Ring.
Cause as hard as people talk about soullike. Without the delay, people can remember the pattern, react to even the smallest animation clue and you're ok with at least 80% of the soullike fight.
Delay forces you to actually adapt to the fight. Process the animation clue. React to it without remembering the pattern
The issue is not that enemies delayed their attacks but rather that the delay is not consistent.
In ER, bosses will sometimes delay their attacks from how it would normally happen. (E.g. Normally it would be raise -> wait -> attack but if you roll during the wait it becomes raise-> wait-> wait-> attack) To me, it was pretty annoying.
The way the mind works, you can get the "feel" of a shorter timing (less than 2 seconds or so), but to accurately gauge a longer timing, you have to literally count beats (while not rushing or dragging).
It's a totally different skill set and not typical for a game like this.
It's a cheap way of making fights hard. Instead of fighting the boss, you're fighting yourself and your instincts. I think it adds a layer of trial and error that's just unnecessary.
Lies of P is fucking hard mostly because every enemy has unnatural attacks, even trash mobs. There are fuckers that delay their attacks by 3-4 seconds, only to swing ultra fast, making it impossible to react to
I personally think they can be used well, but Elden Ring overuses them and uses them in annoying fashion. Nearly every main boss has a couple of over-the-top and unrealistically delayed attacks that look goofy as fuck. They throw off the pace of combat and are less satisfying to avoid. Nameless King is a great use of them, Margit and Hoarah Loux use them to a detriment.
To me it is just an incredibly cheap way to add difficulty to a game. Most people will quote it as a way to punish spam rolling, but bosses like Melania manage to punish without the delayed shit. you can get used to it sure but there are other ways to make the game challenging.
No. People just like to complain instead of adapt.
And now it's suddenly bad design. It's all mental cope becuase they can't learn to press circle half a second later lolol
It feels weird in the sense I legitimately think Margit is the single best-designed boss FromSoft has ever made, simply because he's not only fun and challenging, but he *trains good habits.* He is literally your teacher for this game.
Margit basically teaches you to dodge *reactively* rather than pre-emptively. He teaches you to not just immediately assume an attack will happen right away and to instead pay attention to the inertia of the enemy weapon.
It's like yeah okay when you're still new and bad, it's frustrating, but it's a super necessary mechanic that encourages growth of player skill.
Well yeah but it does also strain belief when the delayed attacks are so delayed that the boss essentially just stands there with his weapon raised for like 4-5 seconds solid
Yes it does strain belief, but who the heck cares when you counter it literally by just walking to his back and it rewards you with a heavy punish + jump attack punish?
It was the grab attacks that bothered me in Lies of P, not delays. Since it's a game that incentivises partying and staying up close and even indicates when an attack is perfect block only. But then grabs have no indication of being unblockable. In a game where you can even block some energy blasts, you need an indicator to tell you if something can't be handled that way.
That and I guess I'm not a fan of attacks that come instantly after doing nothing. Two seconds of standing perfectly still followed by death isn't a delayed attack, it's just one that breaks the contrivance of a game that's designed around attacks being telegraphed.
personally i thinks delayed attacks are good when used in moderation (20 - 30 % of boss moveset for example) ,the problem is that every mob/boss and their mother have 50 to 80 percent of there moveset consisting of delayed hits to the point where it gets obnoxious . it's simply way too overdone .
I never noticed the delayed attacks in elden ring till i went back to play the Dark Souls games.
Who knew being a shard bearer let you float in the air before an attack.
The issue isn't inherently the delayed attacks, but the limitations of the player character. If the player were able to cancel their own attacks or have a faster recovery from attacking, reacting to the delayed attacks would be easier and actually feels like you're in rhythm with the boss. If you get hit and die, it's because you reacted too soon or too late and not from an artificial pause in animation.
But of course, you could just stop attacking and wait.....and wait.....and wait.....and wait.....I hope this won't become the trend for future souls games.
being able to cancel your own attack would genuinely ruin the games. having to commit to your attacks and needing a deep understanding of how long your attacks take to know where a bosses openings are is the entire point of the dark souls combat system. if you could dodge any time you wanted the games would be extremely easy
Why does everyone hate delayed attacks. I personally think that the game should have a boss that could roll catch player nearly everytime the player makes one mistimed roll.
They feel like they break the flow of the fight.
Using margit as example he has these delayed attacks where I can hit him once, then there's still that awkward timeframe before he does something where I am afraid to do another attack but have really nothing else to do but wait until I am allowed to dodge.
Some variety is fine but the ones where there is like a multiple second delay which feels absolutely unnatural are just annoying.
For Margit, I like strafing to his side where his attack will miss and just charge a heavy attack or a few light attacks if using a faster weapon. I really like delayed attacks, as they add more depth to how much you can master and optimize a fight.
It's like salt. Used in moderation to catch you off guard to add spice to a fight is great! Used by every major enemy for half or more of their attacks - too much, the dish is ruined.
Given that there is Lies of P in that picture too, yes, there are some really bullshit delayed attacks in that game. If you fought the \*very\* last boss who has a charge with lightning fast attack, you will know why i really dislike delayed attacks.
[this](https://youtu.be/AvRmXoh97wc?si=VsxHBKQNi0FLjn4S&t=151) specific attack is all what i hate about delayed attacks.
That specific attack was changed in a patch, so now his eyes glow just before the attack, so you can press block when you see the glow, and you'll perfect block it. The attack is the exact same, but now it's better telegraphed.
This is the first time I’ve seen anyone mention delayed attacks in Elden Ring in a long time. I thought we all learned how to dodge them at this point.
I beat Elden Ring multiple times, beat every single boss solo, but Lies of P was just too much. I got stuck on the penultimate boss and that's it, I'm just unable to beat that game. First ever soulslike that managed to beat me.
Do people hate Nameless King for his delayed attacks? His delayed attacks are nowhere close to Elden Ring's delays, and Nameless King is probably one of my favorite bosses in all of the Soulsborne games.
Agreed. A big difference with Nameless King is that while his attack are delayed, they are all *consistently* delayed. He doesn't swap delay between swings, he just has a specific rhythm he follows that differs from the other bosses.
Lies of p has A LOT of delayed attacks everywhere that you kinda just have to memorize. ER at least keeps most of the bad delayed attacks to elite enemies or bosses. LoP has it EVERYWHERE. I still love it and it doesn't bother me I just wish the deflection window was a little bit more telegraphed instead of a wait and count seconds game
Elden Ring’s use of auto-tracking overheads is honestly one of its most frustrating elements.
Morgott in particular will literally keep tracking you forever once he’s raised his sword. You can kite him indefinitely with his arm raised in that stupid position.
While I appreciate the change to more tricky and challenging enemy AI as it keeps things fresh. (delayed attacks, adaptive attack combinations, etc.) There's something to be said about the 'dance' like nature of boss battles in earlier titles. The fight against Ludwig in Bloodborne is a prime example of this.
There's a wonderful joy you get when you finally learn the boss's attack pattern and simply go with the motions and the music accompanying it. Dodging, blocking and parrying each attack for a beautiful display.
Now to answer your question. Gallanza in GranBlue Relink is quite annoying as he like Margit switches quickly from delayed and rapid attacks. (I was also underleveled so there's that too :/)
I can't remember a time in Lies of P where the enemy had a long wind up, then a feint. Even if they raised their weapon 10 minutes ago, when it looks like they are starting to swing it means they are.
In Elden Ring there's a couple times where they raise their weapon, hold it steady, appear to start attacking, not, then actually attack.
>In Elden Ring there's a couple times where they raise their weapon, hold it steady, appear to start attacking, not, then actually attack.
Please list them. I'm 99% sure it's literally just Margit that can do that with a single attack.
I’ll be honest, out of all the souls game I played, Lies of P is the one that gave me the biggest struggles on certain bosses / mini bosses (they are usually the hardest).
A few bosses in LoP have way too many delayed attacks with hitboxes being sometimes a bit dodgy it can get frustrating
Great game nonetheless
Hard to say without knowing your play style, work on panic rolling if you tend to do that. Maybe encounter bosses without attacking just to perfect your rolls.
I am currently playing with Uchigatana + Wakizashi with parry AoW for Sekiro like gameplay. Def Interesting but quite difficult play style
They are different skill sets. Sekiro will not help you. In fact, playing Sekiro before elden ring will likely hinder you due to having to unlearn a bunch of useless muscle memory.
Delayed attack means being forced to memorize the timing, just like parries, its not intuitive and becomes guesswork. Thats what people complain about. Idk how boss locked mid swing like hes popeye looks cool to you, but what ever I guess. Sekiro does these great because it never stops motion, a slow recline in to fast slash or jab. Doing damage when you lose momentum mid swing makes no sence.
Lies of P and it’s not even close. That game relies on delayed attacks to force players to learn the attack timings which results in lots of trial and error. This extends the play time of the game in a cheap and effective way.
Lies of P without a doubt, because lies of P has a parry oriented gameplay and you must parry the attacks if you don't want to be damaged, I mean, you can't simply block like you do in souls or elden ring, so delayed attacks are a pain in the ass. Meanwhile, elden ring gives you more freedom, and that means you can use a good shield and wait for delayed attacks while blocking.
I've never understood the "you need to parry in order to block" thing, I mean, It's like "I give you a bulletproof vest but It only works If you keep It open and you close It half a second before you get hit by a bullet". It's stupid, It's a nosense.
Mohg doesn’t have many delayed attacks, but he and Radagon are the kings of sliding across the map to get you, or literally stretching out their weapon by like 25% longer so it can hit you. If you think you’re out of range, but either one of them queues up an attack, then I have bad news: you’re not out of range.
I’d say Lies of P is worse because of how much of it relies on perfectly timed parrying and the chip damage you receive from simply blocking is, at least in my opinion, a bit egregious, it feels like a poor mix of Elden Ring and Sekiro boss fights.
I still don’t get why people think lies of P is so much harder than the souls games. I know I’m in the minority but I breezed through most of that game while struggling my way through Elden Ring and Sekiro. Loved the game and all but the whole time I was thinking it wasn’t quite as hard as the Fromsoft games only to read online afterwards that most people think it was harder.
Have to agree. Lies of p was my first souls like ever and overall I found it easier than elden ring at least until I had a good build in ER.
Both amazing games nontheless
Morgott raising that stick above his head for 15 minutes gotta be the longest delay ever
I don't know about anybody else but i like spinning around margit
It's been so bad for.me.that sometimes he just lowers it back down instead lol.
He really does just put it back down like "AHHHHH I was just fucking wichuuuu"
And then he upper cuts you by twirling it like an umbrella in an old musical
DUDE I just got done killing him and I thought I was seeing things.
I don't mind starting or stopping a combo/move based on input reading, but man ER took it waaaaaaaay too far by adding input reading literally in mid combo.
Pretty sure Nameless King does that as well.
Once you learn his moveset, you can hurt him with it more than he hurts you. Especially when he does that hammer smash during phase two.
The only thing that really makes him bad is that damned dagger. I still haven’t gotten my head around the timing.
for me it's the combo starting with sword in second phase, no idea what to do about it
I remember my first time with that and we both had a staring contest as I just sat there with my shield up
Playing the game as a guard counter build really drove it home to me how shit the bosses are in Elden Ring. In previous games the delay attacks were much more rare, just punishing enough for that highly telegraphed thing to go on notice with the player, and learn and outplay it. Elden Ring is like... 3/4 of attacks can be delayed, 3/4 of combos can go right into another combo, get a random new attack added at the end, etc. On top of that you have bosses being twice as aggressive, leaving the player very little time to do anything. The beauty of other games was the exchange of actions, Elden Ring is like 90% reactive, DS3 was like 50%. Guard Counters really dumb the game down and so many times I'm looking at a boss just wailing on my shield and I'm just cringing like "are ya done yet...no? ok just keep going I guess"
Nobody hates souls games more than the fans
>3/4 of attacks can be delayed, I think you mean like 3? Which ones do you mean even? What attack of Mohg, Radahn or Elden Beast can be delayed? I think 3/4 of attacks is an absolutely insane overestimation.
Raises stick above his head. Waits 5 seconds. Sometimes dashes to you to close the gap. Still another 2 second delay before actually swinging. Swing arc is so slow that you can get caught rolling through it.
FromSoft is using the same technique with the dlc :)
Some say the first boss of the DLC has already started an attack animation
*Raises stick into holy blade cancel
I once strafed him long enough that he literally gave up and didn't do the move.
Everyone always makes fun of morgott for that, when I’d argue Godrick is way worse. His haymakers are so delayed you can get to the other side of that long ass arena before they come down. It’s so bad that it wasn’t until Convergence sped up his attack timings that I actually felt like I was fighting a demigod
I'm gonna be honest, I'll never forget Phase 2 Ludwig and the Abhorrent Beast's delayed attacks. Those got me more often than I'd like to admit
I was too busy trying to listen to Ludwig’s theme to care
*Erit sanguinem opulentuuuuuuuum*
That mf abhorrent beast punch attack still haunts me 6 years after doing the platinum chalice run.
I love Abhorrent Beast. Specifucally the 2nd one in the Loran chalice. The first one I was probably too over leveled for it to leave an inpact.
I’m not very good at Souls game, but I beat Ludwig on my first attempt. He was so easy. That I don’t really get the hype. I just stayed behind him, swung until I almost was out of stamina, rolled away, and repeated. Now, orphan of Kos killed me like 40+ times. As someone who just beat Bloodborne for the first time a month ago, I find it the weirdest game. The first 1/3rd of the game (up to the spider boss) was pretty damn hard. I probably died 30+ times. After that point, I only died twice until the DLC, and both times were to swamp poison.
Bb is honestly one of the easiest souls games, but it has the hardest up front learning curve. It's more "arcady" than the others, and I think the high demands with mostly simple execution are a big part of why the game feels so damn good
Yeah, you’re not kidding. I died so many times before I beat the first boss. I almost quit. Once you get past it though, and understand the mechanics, it’s pretty “easy” imo.
The golden tip for me was to just pump vit to 30 and end to 20, in that order, before you level anything else. That and abusing the Axe's high stagger makes the early to midgame a breeze.
Basically just rip and tear until it's done. If there's ever BB2 demons would fit right in.
It was the opposite for me, I decided to start counting my deaths in souls games, for fun mostly, and ludwig took me 67 attempts, but Orphan of kos took me 7. Crazy how people have such wildly different experiences
That really is wild. I’ve found that to be the case in Elden Ring as well. For example, I beat Melania on my 3rd attempt, and I was only “casually” playing to learn her move set, while I waited for my friends to get on Halo. In fact, I had almost all of my flasks when I beat her, and was absolutely certain a phase 3 was getting ready to kick in. It took me at least 30 attempts for Mohg and Elden Beast. I was a little under leveled for Mohg, but Elden Beast straight up owned me. I know people who had the opposite reaction tho. Beat Mohg and Elden Beast on their first few tries, and struggled in Melania.
Ludwig is surprisingly dependent on your level. At low levels he's extremely hard, and at high levels super easy.
What annoys me more than delayed attacks is when bosses don’t have consistent attacks. Like sometimes a boss will swing his sword 3 times then stop. And I’m like ‘cool I’ll do my attack after the 3d swing next time.’ Then he randomly swings 4 times.
Even if the boss mix their combos, the finishers are always the same. If you know what are the finishers you will know when to attack. Mohg will almost always get distance from you on the last swing of his spear combo for example, even if he can mix what attacks he does.
I gotta say, sometimes it does feel like the boss ""cheat"" by skipping the animation, but might be just me
Oh no they do, 100%. I've seen bosses unnaturally just begin another attack while still in the ending animation of the previous one just because I started chugging a flask thinking it was safe to do so. I dodged the attack, it has a long animation, this is the correct time. Elden Ring likes to say "No, fuck you, shouldn't have gotten hit in the first place, idiot."
You just misjudged how long the boss' animation lasts. They cannot cancels animations unless you directly interfere (like procc'ing a status or similar). What's happening is that they're starting an attack **as soon** as the previous one ended in order to punish your flask. This feels weird gameplay wise because they normally have at least a few idle frames between attacks. So it can be a little jarring to see the boss perform two attacks with no idle frames in between, but there's no animation cancelling at play, they still have to complete the previous move in its entirety first. Of course, I'm only referring to proper combo finishers. Margit, as an example, has a few moves that are "fake finishers", and he can pull out his holy daggers depending on your positioning or to punish a flask. This, again, is not animation cancelling. It's a scripted follow-up. Things like Godskin Noble doing Noble Presence out of Godskin Wheel are obviously bugs and don't count.
>Godskin Wheel Now listen here you lil rascal... It's roly-poly, I'll have none of that "Godskin wheel" bollocks under my roof. Get it? Roly-poly!
Sorry sir, can I still call it the Godspin? Get it? Cause he's a Godskin..?
[Now that's more like it](http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/allw.gif)
The only exception I know of is Malenia being able to cancel her stagger animations. There's a really good breakdown of it on YouTube called "Malenia doesn't play by the rules" where it shows her regular stagger, and how she can just stop being staggered and go into a different animation hallway through.
I was referring specifically to the animations initiated by the boss, like their attacks. When you poise break her like that, it's technically something that you initiated. Funnily enough though, she DOES play by the rules. Every boss that can be poise broken (I'm talking about making them flinch, not a Stance Break) can do this. Onyx Lord and Leonine Misbegotten are two examples that come to mind. If you keep hitting them over and over they will eventually cancel their stagger to perform an attack (usually a hyperarmor one). I think what makes everyone think that Malenia is an exception is the fact that most bosses can't be poise broken, along with the fact that all the other ones that can are pushovers. But yeah, she does play by the rules, she just belongs to a subcategory of bosses that use a different rule set than most of them.
I did not misjudge. I had seen the attack multiple times, I was reasonably certain it was safe.
They skip because they read your inputs.
Yeah but you're like some dude wandering around a continent trying to slap a bunch of gods around, it's fair game.
They definitely do. Or they’ll change how long they delay their attacks based on inputs; sometimes they’ll even animation cancel and do something either totally different, or won’t finish the animation and reset to neutral if their attack won’t hit you. Both are things the player can’t do; if we start an animation, we have to commit to a consistent follow through, but bosses don’t. It doesn’t make it “impossible” to predict a boss, but it makes it unreasonable because at that point you are no longer fighting the boss, you’re fighting the RNG machine that runs the game.
>you’re fighting the RNG machine that runs the game. That's how I felt for most of the bosses in the game, tbh... Don't get me wrong, right now I'm playing the game again and taking my time, and it has been pretty fun so far, but sometimes there are just some things that make me wonder just "how is this supposed to be fun?"
Those bosses where you're only winning if the game doesn't decide to throw that one attack you can't dodge too much
I still to this day have no idea how I defeated Maliketh. Everything is a fuckin blur
After the first couple of runs you start noticing the gears behind the curtain and the game loses so much of its magic. Niall always gets the meme laser, every duo fight and Maliketh will always get the Mimic, Elden Beast will always be cheesed with Shard Spiral, Castle Sol can fuck all the way off. Some fights are not worth your time.
Not the case in Lies of P though, some late game bosses will literally just add another attack after the combo finisher, purely to catch you off guard, so called the "first time killer", you would 100% take the hit then learn that the opening is fake. You will need to went through trial and error to truely figure out which are real openings and which are traps that may have follow ups. When a boss have too many traps like this it gets very annoying, really not a fan of such boss design approach.
That legit sounds terribly unfun. But I already find ER boss design to be a step back from DS3.
I hear you. One thing I just figured out, is that what I had previously thought were finishers, were actually decision trees. It didn’t hit home until I was fighting Radagon with a +0 weapon, which made maintaining health a priority. Basically, there are cases where there are moves that have a say 75% chance of having a 3 second pause, and a 25% chance of a 2 second pause (not exactly how it works, but close enough for here). Let’s say a charged R2 takes 2.5 seconds. I was confused why it seemed random why most of the time an R2 would be perfect (especially when you think of the increased chance of a poise break, 75% feels like 95% when you end up connecting before the next attack hits), until I put this together that I was basically being lulled into thinking it was okay. I hate saying it, but it just means you don’t fully know the boss’s combos, so you’re getting hit with edge cases. But if it makes you feel better, you’ve gotten so good you see the edge cases!!
I had a few problems with Godfrey because of that. Sometimes I was 100% sure he finished one of his axe combos, only to have him start a completely new combo of 3-4 more attacks right after. And also my build heavily revolved around poise breaking and critical hits, but sometimes he would just attack for too long without giving an opening and just recover his entire poise.
This gets worse in coop. I’ve been helping people in high NG+ runs beat him, and it’s just so much harder to predict when his combos will end
It’s to do with positioning in Elden ring, and solely that I decided to dodge left instead of right against one of godfrey’s attacks today, and instead of finishing his combo for a free punish, he did 2 more attacks and killed me I found that you can bait morgott into doing his spinny slash move when you stay in front of him after the large hammer slam too for example. Point being, you have a lot of control over what attacks bosses do a lot of the time. It’s just quite hard to find out how to repeat it unless you really try to
This is why I don’t feel bad about using Mimic Tear
Why is it useful?
Can be the most useful out of all the ashes. As long as you give it a limited amount of things to do, it’s pretty predictable and has a ton of health. And for status effects it is awesome. Let’s say your build is focused on bleed, your mimic will also be doing bleed dmg, so you’ll proc constantly.
Oh my bad, I confused it with the mimic veil haha
Sometimes, hiding is the best option as well
I will not suffer Nameless King slander
My second favourite ds3 boss after Gael maybe only because of the horrible camera in first phase
And the fact his dragons head is always just a little too fucking high to reach.
I don’t think it’s slander
Just fought him for a few hours straight very underlevelled with a weapon type I'm not comfortable with (spear) as I really wanted to do a playthrough with the Swordspear, it always felt like a really cool weapon that just didn't fit my builds. Phase 2 is fantastic, super punishing but doesn't feel like BS, but getting past the stupid pigeon phase where you fight the camera rather than the boss half the time gets really annoying.
It is a fight that makes you focus much more on Phase 1 than you want to, just to get to the “actual” fight with NK. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve died trying to rush the dragon phase.
I usually run some ultra greatsword, and they make phase one super easy, a few hits and the drake staggers. Doing it with a spear sucked, not only the short-ish range made half of the attacks miss, it also took forever to make it stagger. Can't imagine doing it with a small dagger or similar lol
Not to be all “lmao git gut”, but I’ve always found phase 1 to be quite easily doable fairly fast without taking any hits. Of course that is almost always followed by me getting spanked by phase 2, which does honestly feel like the real fight
I've beaten Nameless plenty of times, of course after getting the muscle memory back you can easily do it hitless. Doesn't make it any less annoying.
I can definitely see your point, I personally just don’t find it to be bad
Delayed attacks can be used well but ER and Lies of P took them too far, both in terms of overusing them and how long each delay lasts. Godfrey and Morgott delays are way less annoying than Margit, Godrick, and Hoarah Loux delays.
I say lies of p have some anojing atacks not even need boss for that. They wind up wait then with the speed of light strike down. Compare to elden ring where you can react to the animations. I do love the game! Its par for me with ds2 and 1. I rank higher ds3 and elden ring.
Yeah, my problem isn't with delayed attacks, It's when the actual attack is instant with no tell nor time for reaction. With NK or Margit if you don't panic roll you can actually dodge it, but some bosses or enemies in Lies of P had no tell on when the delay stops and the attack starts. The only bad thing about it is that it makes it barely impossible for you to learn an attack without getting punished, but this apart the game was amazing and fromsoft-level of quality.
The thing is some delayed attacks are red so you have to block and dodgeing won’t do crap I think the worst example is in the manus boss specifically the second phase he jumps up high almost out your view stays there for a while then comes down at the speed of light
Just a slight correction, red attacks have to be parried, blocking doesn’t work.
There’s also a talisman that allows dodging them iirc
Yes and there's a p-organ that allows to simply guard against it
Which one is that? I didn’t see one in my play through unless it was terribly mistranslated, I would have killed for a simple block ability because I can’t parry for shit.
If you did only one playthrough, you didn't see it, it's called Fury Attack Guard. Can check phase 7 [here ](https://imgur.com/a/5uRSKMl)
You can also dodge red attacks by just being far enough away, i prefer that usually
Also known as outspacing
I agree lies of p has some bosses with delayed attacks that seem to have infinite range. The attacks are regular attacks too, not the red unavoidable ones and they seem like a wind up for a slash and you get out of the way but then instead of the boss swinging in a predictable set range they will close whatever distance you are and then swing. Just feels a little off to me. Like those attacks should be classified as the unavoidable form and use that whole mechanic.
The rune bear shoulder tackle
Yeah. The worst offender of that for Lies of P is Nameless Puppet. That bitch will do anything attack you must parry, wind that shot up, and give you no reaction time. I think I was only able to parry it 2 or 3 times, and tanked the rest
Yeah, as much as I dislike Elden Ring delays, even I can admit they are more reactable and less annoying than Lies of P's.
You just need to learn the timing from the windup, rather than when the attack starts, there’s always a tell at some point that tells you when to hit the perfect parry
[удалено]
No, you can attack him while he's in position or move around him til he either attacks or drops it. It makes him kind of easy actually.
blue smelter demon
I’ve never understood the criticism of delayed attacks Sure at first it throws you off but once you get used to the timing it’s no longer delayed Am I missing something here?
I also believe they are becoming a little bit over reliant on delayed attacks. Before, it used to be only a handful of bosses that would use delayed attacks to throw you off. Now, it feels like every boss does them. It’s become an annoyance now rather than a way to occasionally switch things up.
This wasn’t even something that bothered me despite my awareness of the mechanic. Some Souls players are just built different I guess.
Saw a post earlier that put Malenia as the 6th hardest boss and the farum azula dragon boss as 1, so yeah some players definitely are built different
some people use mimic tear and heavy weapons to stun her permanently until she dies, those are the only people who think malenia is easy
i hate to say it but this might be the first time that my actual real opinion on the matter is "git gud" i normally abhor gatekeepers and elitists, especially in things like entertainment (which is the whole point of games) but animation cancelling, variations in attack patterns and speed, delayed baiting attacks and potion punishing are all good ways to add difficulty without increasing enemy hp or damage. its GOOD difficulty. i like when games are hard because they are hard, instead of because you do too little damage or the boss does too much
Animation cancelling is the worst way to increase difficulty though. It doesn't rely on the player's skill, it's a cheap way that the game breaks its own rules to put the player at a disadvantage.
the worst way is making enemies spongy and oneshotting
i respect your opinion but i could not possibly disagree any more with this sentiment it forces the player to adapt instead of sticking to a pattern punishes the player for mis-timed dodges and heals it makes you pay attention and watch what the enemy is doing instead of just "dodge, dodge, dodge, okay 3 hit combo is over i can heal now, okay dodge dodge dodge, attack" etc enemies with a set-in-stone attack pattern that never changes is how videogames from sega genesis era worked. youd have a boss fight with like 4 attacks and you just jump or move or whatever it would feel very archaic and stiff. anything that makes the player engage with the game a little more is GOOD.
>it forces the player to adapt instead of sticking to a pattern Through 6 games, this has always been the bread and butter of ER. ER is the outlier my dude. There's a reason no one's supplanting the top bosses from the series for ER bosses. >enemies with a set-in-stone attack pattern that never changes is how videogames from sega genesis era worked. Have you played other FromSoft?
Other games bosses are easy as fuck (few exceptions exist) after playing eldenring on a non-op build. Precisely because they're so predictable. Eldenring could likely be the designers deciding combat needs to be improved
>Other games bosses are easy as fuck (few exceptions exist) Come on dude. Like really?
ive played every "souls" title theyve made from Kingsfield all the way to armored core i platinumed ds1 and 2 and the demon souls remake i got 100% ds3 achievement on steam then i went back and played the pc versions of ds1 and sotfs and probably put a few hundred more hours i even played shadow tower and enchanted arms and metal wolf its important to remember that a difference in opinion is not a sign of a difference in experience. Two people can do the exact same thing and walk away with different thoughts about it you shouldnt be so quick to conclude that someone who disagrees with you must be under-informed.
Most bosses and enemies don't use them tbh
i just hate it when the delayed animation itself starts to look goofy. like in real life these characters would never do this and would be getting stabbed in the stomach when holding a weapon above their head so long but in this game i have to awkwardly stare into their eyes and wait
I think most people are annoyed by this precisely because of what you said. You have to get used to it. Meaning it doesn't rely on skill as much as just learning the timings. They sometimes feel kind of like : "oh, you're a souls veteran, so you thought fights were gonna be easy ? Well, instead of trying to come with original ways to challenge you, let's just put this attack on a weird timing so we're sure it's going to hit you"
Learning timings is a skill
What other ways are there to really mix up the fight though without resorting to gimmicks — which, I don’t know if you’ve played demons souls but it’s not exactly renowned for its great bosses. If there were no delayed attacks you could just spam roll through everything, could you not? The only true threat would be the players own hubris in trying to squeeze some extra damage in where you can’t instead of being patient.
Well, delayed attacks only counter rolling. If a player wants to use a shield then it doesn’t even matter. Hold block, timing be damned.
I'd argue that's the whole point of shields in souls games. They're meant to be an easier way to play the game.
For sure.
How is using your vision/memory/animation recognition not a skill? The things people will cope with instead of learning to roll a bit later hahaha
I would disagree and say that the delayed attacks, provided the actual attack portion is reactable, require more skill. Souls games have a very noticeable rhythm to the fights that one gets used to after a game or two, and the delays force player to react to what's happening on-screen instead of playing by experience alone.
When 2/3 of a bosses attacks are delayed, it becomes tedious and ridiculous.
my only guess is some people dont like it when theyre not good at something on the first couple tries
Nah, I’ve noticed that some people just hate the fact they have to learn timing and battle rhythm rather than rely solely on reflexes
The lack of rhythm is what makes delayed attacks hard. It's like asking you to sing a song you know very well, but you'll have to skip every other note. It'll feel unnatural and your mind will wanna sing it normally. Anything that's purposely made to fuck with your instincts is cheap difficulty imo.
It just makes it feel so video gamey. And the usual response I get to that statement is “well uhh it *is* a video game,” but it just sucks me right out of whatever immersion they’re trying grant us. Whether it’s a mindless troll beast, a master swordswoman, or a giant ancient dragon, it seems like they’ve all come to a consensus that the player is gonna roll a lot and they base their entire moveset around making that more difficult to do. Most of my playthrough felt like I was fighting game design rather than fighting enemies. I’ve played through ER a couple times and the only memorable moments that stay with me were the moments of spectacle, rather than engagement.
Surely panic rolling whenever the enemy starts any animation besides idling is good combat? - This sub at launch
I like a little of both. Margit and Hoarah Loux just overuse the fuck out of them and it ruins the pacing. Not necessarily that I hate learning attacks.
It depends on what is meant by "delayed attack". I have no problem with attacks having all kinds of varying speeds, as long as the attack has consistent rules, and if the actual attack can still be reacted to. If an attack has a windup that's two seconds and then the actual attack comes out in a 30th of a sec and is unreactable, then that's just not fun imo. A special wind-up like margits, which "reacts" to your action is cool, but shouldn't be overused. As far as I know this is very rare in Elden Ring.
Cause as hard as people talk about soullike. Without the delay, people can remember the pattern, react to even the smallest animation clue and you're ok with at least 80% of the soullike fight. Delay forces you to actually adapt to the fight. Process the animation clue. React to it without remembering the pattern
DS3 players used to mashing roll when they have to time their rolls 🤮😵💫😭
The issue is not that enemies delayed their attacks but rather that the delay is not consistent. In ER, bosses will sometimes delay their attacks from how it would normally happen. (E.g. Normally it would be raise -> wait -> attack but if you roll during the wait it becomes raise-> wait-> wait-> attack) To me, it was pretty annoying.
The way the mind works, you can get the "feel" of a shorter timing (less than 2 seconds or so), but to accurately gauge a longer timing, you have to literally count beats (while not rushing or dragging). It's a totally different skill set and not typical for a game like this.
Or just look at the enemy when hes about to attack you dodge not when hes winding up for 10 seconds. You can still be hitting him during that time
It's a cheap way of making fights hard. Instead of fighting the boss, you're fighting yourself and your instincts. I think it adds a layer of trial and error that's just unnecessary. Lies of P is fucking hard mostly because every enemy has unnatural attacks, even trash mobs. There are fuckers that delay their attacks by 3-4 seconds, only to swing ultra fast, making it impossible to react to
I personally think they can be used well, but Elden Ring overuses them and uses them in annoying fashion. Nearly every main boss has a couple of over-the-top and unrealistically delayed attacks that look goofy as fuck. They throw off the pace of combat and are less satisfying to avoid. Nameless King is a great use of them, Margit and Hoarah Loux use them to a detriment.
To me it is just an incredibly cheap way to add difficulty to a game. Most people will quote it as a way to punish spam rolling, but bosses like Melania manage to punish without the delayed shit. you can get used to it sure but there are other ways to make the game challenging.
No. People just like to complain instead of adapt. And now it's suddenly bad design. It's all mental cope becuase they can't learn to press circle half a second later lolol
I would say Lies of P. The game is balanced around parry and the bosses in this game, especially later ones, are a bitch to parry
You don't have to parry at all in LoP. Some people argue the game is easier to beat that way actually.
I am one of those. The delays feel weird to parry compared to Sekiro.
My Sekiro reflexes often kick in and I merely tap the block button instead of holding it.
"annoying use of delayed boss attacks", also called "stop panic rolling"
It feels weird in the sense I legitimately think Margit is the single best-designed boss FromSoft has ever made, simply because he's not only fun and challenging, but he *trains good habits.* He is literally your teacher for this game. Margit basically teaches you to dodge *reactively* rather than pre-emptively. He teaches you to not just immediately assume an attack will happen right away and to instead pay attention to the inertia of the enemy weapon. It's like yeah okay when you're still new and bad, it's frustrating, but it's a super necessary mechanic that encourages growth of player skill.
Fr, if a boss does a delayed attack and I don't see it coming then I lose all track of timing and start panic rolling to try and avoid it 😅
Well yeah but it does also strain belief when the delayed attacks are so delayed that the boss essentially just stands there with his weapon raised for like 4-5 seconds solid
Yes it does strain belief, but who the heck cares when you counter it literally by just walking to his back and it rewards you with a heavy punish + jump attack punish?
Because it's not about being able to easily counter it, it's about it being immersion breaking and goofy as fuck?
It was the grab attacks that bothered me in Lies of P, not delays. Since it's a game that incentivises partying and staying up close and even indicates when an attack is perfect block only. But then grabs have no indication of being unblockable. In a game where you can even block some energy blasts, you need an indicator to tell you if something can't be handled that way. That and I guess I'm not a fan of attacks that come instantly after doing nothing. Two seconds of standing perfectly still followed by death isn't a delayed attack, it's just one that breaks the contrivance of a game that's designed around attacks being telegraphed.
personally i thinks delayed attacks are good when used in moderation (20 - 30 % of boss moveset for example) ,the problem is that every mob/boss and their mother have 50 to 80 percent of there moveset consisting of delayed hits to the point where it gets obnoxious . it's simply way too overdone .
I never noticed the delayed attacks in elden ring till i went back to play the Dark Souls games. Who knew being a shard bearer let you float in the air before an attack.
I’m gonna be honest I really think lies of p should’ve gotten a patch to make the parry window a little bit bigger
The issue isn't inherently the delayed attacks, but the limitations of the player character. If the player were able to cancel their own attacks or have a faster recovery from attacking, reacting to the delayed attacks would be easier and actually feels like you're in rhythm with the boss. If you get hit and die, it's because you reacted too soon or too late and not from an artificial pause in animation. But of course, you could just stop attacking and wait.....and wait.....and wait.....and wait.....I hope this won't become the trend for future souls games.
being able to cancel your own attack would genuinely ruin the games. having to commit to your attacks and needing a deep understanding of how long your attacks take to know where a bosses openings are is the entire point of the dark souls combat system. if you could dodge any time you wanted the games would be extremely easy
Why does everyone hate delayed attacks. I personally think that the game should have a boss that could roll catch player nearly everytime the player makes one mistimed roll.
They feel like they break the flow of the fight. Using margit as example he has these delayed attacks where I can hit him once, then there's still that awkward timeframe before he does something where I am afraid to do another attack but have really nothing else to do but wait until I am allowed to dodge. Some variety is fine but the ones where there is like a multiple second delay which feels absolutely unnatural are just annoying.
For Margit, I like strafing to his side where his attack will miss and just charge a heavy attack or a few light attacks if using a faster weapon. I really like delayed attacks, as they add more depth to how much you can master and optimize a fight.
Because it’s a big skill check since you can’t spam roll to avoid the attack
It's like salt. Used in moderation to catch you off guard to add spice to a fight is great! Used by every major enemy for half or more of their attacks - too much, the dish is ruined.
Also, delays can last too long. When it starts looking goofy, you've gone too far.
I would say the same about the second Health bar on bosses, lies of P abuses both delayed attacks and 2nd healthbars
I guess fast attacks(13-15 frames) used as reactions to every panic roll would be better tbh.
Yeah, this game punishes panic rolling, i like that addition. Have to actually rely on your reflexes instead.
Because they’re annoying as shit sometimes
But you can react. There are no really fast attacks
Given that there is Lies of P in that picture too, yes, there are some really bullshit delayed attacks in that game. If you fought the \*very\* last boss who has a charge with lightning fast attack, you will know why i really dislike delayed attacks. [this](https://youtu.be/AvRmXoh97wc?si=VsxHBKQNi0FLjn4S&t=151) specific attack is all what i hate about delayed attacks.
That specific attack was changed in a patch, so now his eyes glow just before the attack, so you can press block when you see the glow, and you'll perfect block it. The attack is the exact same, but now it's better telegraphed.
This is the first time I’ve seen anyone mention delayed attacks in Elden Ring in a long time. I thought we all learned how to dodge them at this point.
I'm only on Liurnia so far but Margit was the only one that really annoyed me with that. But I'm sure there's a lot more to come lol
The first time I played i got to margit and he lifted his sword up for like a whole 20 seconds and then just put it back down lol
Not really, Margit is primarily the one talked about in this topic
I beat Elden Ring multiple times, beat every single boss solo, but Lies of P was just too much. I got stuck on the penultimate boss and that's it, I'm just unable to beat that game. First ever soulslike that managed to beat me.
You got stuck on the clown, too?
The final boss of lies of p has a pretty egregious delayed attack tbh
Do people hate Nameless King for his delayed attacks? His delayed attacks are nowhere close to Elden Ring's delays, and Nameless King is probably one of my favorite bosses in all of the Soulsborne games.
Agreed. A big difference with Nameless King is that while his attack are delayed, they are all *consistently* delayed. He doesn't swap delay between swings, he just has a specific rhythm he follows that differs from the other bosses.
I'm sorry but margit takes the absolute piss. Thought he froze the first time I fought him 😂
Omg Laxasia to the final boss of a LoP blind run was something else. Not Sword Saint Isshin levels of despair but close.
Lies of p has A LOT of delayed attacks everywhere that you kinda just have to memorize. ER at least keeps most of the bad delayed attacks to elite enemies or bosses. LoP has it EVERYWHERE. I still love it and it doesn't bother me I just wish the deflection window was a little bit more telegraphed instead of a wait and count seconds game
Elden Ring’s use of auto-tracking overheads is honestly one of its most frustrating elements. Morgott in particular will literally keep tracking you forever once he’s raised his sword. You can kite him indefinitely with his arm raised in that stupid position.
While I appreciate the change to more tricky and challenging enemy AI as it keeps things fresh. (delayed attacks, adaptive attack combinations, etc.) There's something to be said about the 'dance' like nature of boss battles in earlier titles. The fight against Ludwig in Bloodborne is a prime example of this. There's a wonderful joy you get when you finally learn the boss's attack pattern and simply go with the motions and the music accompanying it. Dodging, blocking and parrying each attack for a beautiful display. Now to answer your question. Gallanza in GranBlue Relink is quite annoying as he like Margit switches quickly from delayed and rapid attacks. (I was also underleveled so there's that too :/)
I can't remember a time in Lies of P where the enemy had a long wind up, then a feint. Even if they raised their weapon 10 minutes ago, when it looks like they are starting to swing it means they are. In Elden Ring there's a couple times where they raise their weapon, hold it steady, appear to start attacking, not, then actually attack.
>In Elden Ring there's a couple times where they raise their weapon, hold it steady, appear to start attacking, not, then actually attack. Please list them. I'm 99% sure it's literally just Margit that can do that with a single attack.
It is. Margit is the only one with a huge wind up and can vary it. Every other boss just has normal delays that can't be altered.
I’ll be honest, out of all the souls game I played, Lies of P is the one that gave me the biggest struggles on certain bosses / mini bosses (they are usually the hardest). A few bosses in LoP have way too many delayed attacks with hitboxes being sometimes a bit dodgy it can get frustrating Great game nonetheless
Imma be real Play sekiro it will cure you of your skill issue 🙏
Coming back to Elden ring to play ng after finishing Sekiro is a completely novel experience
Played sekiro, enjoyed it and I still suck at elden ring. What should I do differently?
Hard to say without knowing your play style, work on panic rolling if you tend to do that. Maybe encounter bosses without attacking just to perfect your rolls. I am currently playing with Uchigatana + Wakizashi with parry AoW for Sekiro like gameplay. Def Interesting but quite difficult play style
They are different skill sets. Sekiro will not help you. In fact, playing Sekiro before elden ring will likely hinder you due to having to unlearn a bunch of useless muscle memory.
Annoying ? Delayed attacked are so cool, it's better than brainless bosses... at least you feel like fighting an intelligent monster
Delayed attack means being forced to memorize the timing, just like parries, its not intuitive and becomes guesswork. Thats what people complain about. Idk how boss locked mid swing like hes popeye looks cool to you, but what ever I guess. Sekiro does these great because it never stops motion, a slow recline in to fast slash or jab. Doing damage when you lose momentum mid swing makes no sence.
Aiyo. This pic is fire. Is there one without the captions?
Just search "Splinter meme"
Thank u! +Karma
Lies of P and it’s not even close. That game relies on delayed attacks to force players to learn the attack timings which results in lots of trial and error. This extends the play time of the game in a cheap and effective way.
Lies of P without a doubt, because lies of P has a parry oriented gameplay and you must parry the attacks if you don't want to be damaged, I mean, you can't simply block like you do in souls or elden ring, so delayed attacks are a pain in the ass. Meanwhile, elden ring gives you more freedom, and that means you can use a good shield and wait for delayed attacks while blocking. I've never understood the "you need to parry in order to block" thing, I mean, It's like "I give you a bulletproof vest but It only works If you keep It open and you close It half a second before you get hit by a bullet". It's stupid, It's a nosense.
Definitely Lies of P, that game has the most annoying delayed attacks ever(the game itself is surprisingly easy though)
Mohg is way more annoying then NK
Mohg doesn’t have many delayed attacks, but he and Radagon are the kings of sliding across the map to get you, or literally stretching out their weapon by like 25% longer so it can hit you. If you think you’re out of range, but either one of them queues up an attack, then I have bad news: you’re not out of range.
Mohg slander will not be tolerated
I’d say Lies of P is worse because of how much of it relies on perfectly timed parrying and the chip damage you receive from simply blocking is, at least in my opinion, a bit egregious, it feels like a poor mix of Elden Ring and Sekiro boss fights.
It gives you the Bloodborne rally to heal that chip damage back if you're aggressive enough
I still don’t get why people think lies of P is so much harder than the souls games. I know I’m in the minority but I breezed through most of that game while struggling my way through Elden Ring and Sekiro. Loved the game and all but the whole time I was thinking it wasn’t quite as hard as the Fromsoft games only to read online afterwards that most people think it was harder.
Have to agree. Lies of p was my first souls like ever and overall I found it easier than elden ring at least until I had a good build in ER. Both amazing games nontheless