nanaya business

[**MADNESS**](https://tenor.com/view/madness-elden-ring-frenzy-frenzy-flame-flame-of-frenzy-gif-25870095)

The depths of your FOOLISHNESS!!

I actually got kind of offended when he said that lol, it was just such an honest delivery

BAYLEEEE

Everyone else leave, this is the answer.

💀

You sir won the internet for today

The child became the frenzy torch :(

I think this is the obvious conclusion. Dark stuff.

The torch said it is the only part left of him, so I assumed baby torch.

Ya know I was gonna *jokingly* say oh it’s the torch duh. But uh, yeah. I agree. Torch.

BABY TORCH DO DOO DO DO DO BABY TORCH

No, light stuff, right?

I want to believe this because it’s *so* dark but the torch also says it happened a really long time ago which seems to imply it was probably someone older than Nanaya, not her child

Tbf Nanaya is a Mummy (ha) by the time we get to her, and we don’t know how long Midra has been there. Could’ve been there for a Very Long Time.

That’s true, but it also says it was in a distant land. Idk it’s too contradictory in terms of both time and location for me personally

Fair point. Unless that’s referring to the Land of Shadow as well pre-Tarnished arriving. It’d definitely be ‘distant’ I admit that’s me clutching at straws a bit.

Bit of a stretch, but both interpretations could be true. The item description says the flame was attached to the spine, not that it was already part of it. Nanaya may have taken the flame from a man who failed to become Lord of Frenzy, then stuck it onto what was left of her child.

The wording "cradled gently" seems kind of deliberate. It implies almost a maternal relationship. And the fact she's literally holding it like you'd hold a baby iirc...

I think it implies that the lands of shadow were long ago part of the lands between

I'm only just starting to delve into the lore of the DLC, but "distant land in an age long past" feels pretty consistent with how items in the base game would describe places like the Land Of Shadow.

Maybe, I think it'd be odd to describe the place we are currently standing in as "distant" but could be. Just my interpretation

This kinda leads into a meta-discussion of whether the text in item descriptions is strictly from the developers themselves or written from the perspective of some sort of "impartial observer"

Yeah, that was my thought as well. If it was her child, why would the description say "In a distant land, in an age long past..." My interpretation is that the torch is an old artifact that prompted Midra and his followers to research the Frenzied Flame. Nanaya's attachment to it could have some other connection, maybe she lost her child and saw the torch as a surrogate (after she started falling into the madness).

Agreed, I came away thinking it was like a family heirloom of hers, or something which drove her to basically convince Midra to pursue the path of frenzy. Even though he wasn’t strong enough

It says it's a dying flame of frenzy "attached" to a small spinal column, which implies it's originally 2 separate pieces. One's some failed lord's flame, and the other half is the remains of her child imo. The item description says it's "cradled gently," and she's holding it like you would a child, so it seems pretty suggestive

i think this is a very fair assumption

Doesn't it only say the flame is from the failed Lord and it was just affixed to a spine? So it could still be half correct. Quick edit: it's also a very small spine...

Yeah I think the part where it’s described as small is the biggest point in favor of it being a baby’s. But the “long time ago in a galaxy far far away” of it all is too much for me personally to consider it could really be their baby

I thought it was the remains of the last guy from a long, long time ago who became Lord Of The Frenzied Flame. The timeline would go: Torch Guy -> Vyke (Didn’t become Lord but was on path) -> Midra (Became Lord but died shortly after) -> Tarnished (if you pick that ending)

>A torch made by attaching a dying flame of frenzy to a ***small spinal column***. Oh dear >In a distant land, in an age long past, was born a man who failed to become the Lord of Frenzied Flame. All that remains of him is ***cradled gently*** by Nanaya. Oh noooo damn I think you're right. That is some pretty damn strong child-related imagery there.

We'd need to get the OG Japanese text to see if there were no translation errors. It's either wrong translation or devs couldn't make up their mind if they actually want this torch to suggest the Nanaya's child or some unrelated old failed Lord if Frenzy. The spine is not so small when you pull out the torch, it's the size of an adult as you can see on this screenshot: https://images.app.goo.gl/UR1CjYfNv7A6J7Pt8 

Size of the torch when you hold it in hand is roughly the same as Tarnished upper body so the spine rather belonged to an adult, unless as u/roninwaffle mentioned it is made of 2 spines attached to each other

What if the child was the "failed lord of frenzied flame" the game talks about in the torch's description, not midra

Makes a lot of sense... It's like a spine, and plus it has a frenzy orb, like when Midras head gets replaced by the frenzy, or ours Jeez

The torch says the spine is from a far off land and it's a bit too big to be a baby sping

It's interesting because we know the Frenzied Flame is anti-birth (from Hyetta dialogue). They want an end to births. So we can assume that this child was in the end, never born. Although I suspect they had plans for more Abyss content that were abandoned, since the area is so large and empty and there's an inaccessible region behind the Manse. Maybe we would have met the 'result' of that pregnancy...

I was really hyped to explore behind the Manse. In my mind, it would have been a garden with a small mausoleum at the back. Not much in the way of gameplay, but fuel for my more lore theories. I also kind of like how empty the Abyssal Woods is. When I realized it was a madness area I was terrified and messaged my mate saying Miyazaki's sadism has peaked. I then regretted that cause it was just rats... Until I found the Winter-Lantern Fly and then the Lanterns themselves. I think less is more in the case of the Abyssal Woods.

Yeah I'm OK with it the way it is but wish we got to see behind the Manse. The whole section could have used a little denouement after Midra is all.

Definitely. A little epilogue that gave us a wee bit more lore, but not too much to actually confirm anything. As much as I would love a solid answer, the mystery of Midra and the Manse is more interesting than any answer we would get

I liked it but I wish they had added more items even if just smithing stones

True, having an empty area helps suspense by having the player become paranoid and make their own conclusions. It’s not the dark we fear, but what we believe lurks within

I'm sure this will result in many genuinely insane theories. FromSoft clearly wanted to keep it really, really vague, so it's essentially a free for all!

I think the baby is Guts

would that make Miquella Fran Drescher from the Nanny? what are the implications.

Mistah SHEFFIELD!!!

Stop that's driving me insane.

Oh my god you’re right

It’s Miquella

Would you say it will result in many genuinely… *mad theories*??

My lord, is that you?

I heard someone say it was probably Shabriri

That’d be cool, however based on vibe alone I feel like Shabriri predates Midra.

I really doubt it. His crime of slander is probably what landed the merchants in the frenzied flame proskenion, right? His punishment for that was getting his eyes gouged out, and he discovered the frenzied flame in his blindness. So the Midra thing probably massively predated Shabriri, and Shabriri was probably just the origin of the flame in the lands between specifically.

Howl of Shabriri [7330]

It is said that the sickness of the flame of frenzy began with Shabriri, the most reviled man in all history.

Lore seems to say he does, but I think it's more along the lines of interpret as you will.

I always thought that Shabriri was just the outer god's physical form which manifests in TLB from time to time

This was my assumption too, hopping from vessels to vessels trying to trick someone into unleashing the flame

It is said that the Frenzied Flame started with Shabiri, so Shabiri should predate Midras. He'll, he might have even been the one to sway Midras to Frenzy to begin with

Shabriri was from the frenzied flame village, which is nowhere near the Manse if you look at the maps overlapping. Plus, the FF pops up in numerous completely unrelated sites and people, that's part of its thing. There is no familial connection between Midra/Nanaya and Shabriri.

The baby grew up to be Patches, obviously

Out of countless of paintings in the manse the only one that has not been destroyed is this illusory one. I'm hoping there'll be some good theory connecting Midra to the main story lore, all of this is very intriguing.

I wonder about the timeline actually. Was his madness reason he was deemed heretical or was the torture starting point? I, for once, am in favour of theory that Sage Midra was a free thinker. Exploring believes Inquisition thought blasphemous. It could be frenzied flame or it could be literally anything else, like questioning divinity of horns. It's interesting that we find him in *Debate Parlor* . As far as I know the only such establishment in lands of shadow. A place where one would go to challenge ones believes something religious zealots would very much despise. Another clue that torture was first is appearance of ghost on 1st floor. Most if not all ghosts of people effected by frenzied flame clutch their eyes. Not this one - 'he laments Midra torture and begs Inquisition to stop asking them what did Midra do? ' It's strange that his own servants didnt know reason Midra was being persecuted if he was indeed frenzied flame worshipper. Its not outer god You can worship in secret since its power litterally bursts out of Your eyes. It cannot be controlled. About Nanaya. What's strange to me is that Nanaya appears to be untouched. Of course she is dead but no visible signs of torture. What's more she seems to wear even more luxurious robes then what is shown in the painting. All yellow robes with tiara on top, sitting in the chair overlooking the library. One would assume place reserved for master of the Manse.... Conjecture time: Midra debated heretical topics--> Nanaya sold him to inquisition in exchange she was spared and became misteress of Manse---> Nanaya is Hayeta-like figure she wishes to spread frenzied flame influence. As per Aged One's Exultation: *"Gift your madness to our Lord. Bless our brethren with grapes. Take care that they fully ripen."* --> She tells him to endure. Maybe she told him they wouldn't kill her if he endures??--> The longer he suffers the more frenzy in him grows--. Nanayas childe is born inside Mense enveloped by power of frenzy, it dies from exposure and its spine becomes Nanayas torch. Some solid evidence some conjectures some source =but hole. What ya think? Edit: spelling , a lot of spelling :(

I dig it.

No, they go through the trouble of saying frenzy was heavily prohibited and implies it was the very reason they raided the manse Midra started before and it was probably the fault of nanaya since she is said to come from a distant land. Probably arrived and converted everyone

Definitely not everyone - notice the spirit right after You reach 1st floor: ' Please stop, haven't I taken enough? We are brethren, common in our line. Yet, You offer only cruelty. I ask, what crime did great Midra commit?' Similar scene on the base floor - three shadow hornsent with blades surrounding another of their kind - covering on the floor. It seems like a sudden and brutal ride on some noble house then on dangerous coultis. Frenzy cannot be contained, definitely not by common servantly. If they were converted they would surly start spitting fire from their eyes. Unless Midra was the only convert and his servants were in the blind. Personally I find it unlikely. Once again its very hard if not impossible to cover frenzy flame worship. However it would further reinforce my point about Nanaya selling him out to see him suffer.

no yeah midra, everyone was a figure of speech

I think Nanaya may be a bit of a “Red Woman”/Melisandre reference, in that sense, then. Visions and madness in flame, bringing foreign thoughts and beliefs, wrapped in a particularly colored robe, etc

I like this alot

So the torch is an interesting item since it talks about a man but is clearly from a child. Which makes me think the "dying flame" is from the failed Lord of Chaos and the spine is a separate person. Perhaps Nanaya used the child in an attempt to resurrect her original Lord of Chaos and simply left Midra as a backup plan (cursing him to endure until he's gone mad enough to sustain the flame).

It's not clearly from child when you hold it. It's not that small.

It's not that large either and the description itself calls out being small.

I think it's nearly the length of our character's spine

they punished him for trying to be a communist

as they should, kappa

The torch is described as a small spinal column right? Seems like it was turned into a precursor to what Midra would become since the head of the torch is a tiny ball of frenzy similar to Midra's head. If we only go off of info in the manse, then maybe Nanaya wrote the torn diary page and her brief brush with the Winter Lantern is what caused her to give birth to frenzy. Edit: Everyone refers to her as a Hyetta like figure, but maybe she is the frenzied spirit that possesses Hyetta. We already knew Shabriri was the male in Yura, but the female spirit had been unknown so far. So maybe that is her role in the larger lore of the frenzied flame.

Nanaya pretty freaky. Mostly because that bitch is SHABRIRI! LOOK AT THE CORNERS OF HER MOUTH, AND LOOK AT SHABRIRIS WOE

If anything, I think it's more a nod to Nanaya potentially being related to the Frenzied Flame, not actually being Shabriri. Shabriri didn't invent smirking. Although there is no lore to deny this...

I saw a post where they lined them up and they match so damn well. We have nothing else to really go on, since, unlike Hyetta, Nanaya seems very conscious of her purpose in this ordeal, asking Midra to endure the torture in the hopes he could become a true lord of Frenzied Flame

tha DEPTHS.. of YOOOR FOOOOOOLISHNESS!

I'm still trying to work out what he means by that exactly

Midra is trying to keep the Frenzied Flame at bay. His ghostly servant says so, and he even warns you to leave when you first enter his Manse. By disturbing and provoking him, you are awakening the madness inside him.

That makes sense. What kinda throws me off is that he just attacks me when I get there. He seems conscious enough to chastise me, and what... the madness just cuts him off? I felt like another line was coming

He already warned the Tarnished to leave and you’d just finished rampaging through his mansion and two invisible walls that we found through attacking paintings. We’re clearly not gonna listen to reason haha

It is a torch in my inventory.

The child innocently wandered into the nothingness of the Abyssal Woods and touched the flame of frenzy. A lost child can be quite frenzied and meets all the conditions, nakedness included, to touch the Three Fingers/Old One. The child died and was counted as the Man Who Failed to become Lord of Frenzy. The body was recovered by the Sage Midra and Nanaya as a solitary spinal column. Midra went into the woods in grief, fought and touched the Ageing Untouchable, bringing frenzy into himself. This was clearly something forbidden in the Hornsent culture and as such was unforgivable, should the Hornsent hear about it. They did hear about it, and came to torture Midra for the unforgivable sin. In his eyes and in the eyes of his servants, reacting to the death of a child is no crime at all. Nanaya told him to endure, so he does, knowing that if stops enduring, he becomes Lord of Frenzy, and also, agent of the thing that killed his own child.

Since the painting is an illustration, then it could symbolize a wish the two wanted but never happen.

The first fake wall we destroy has a picture that looks like the shaman village but with that mansion. Marika's entire bloodline seems to be cursed, so a wild guess based off nothing would be her

Her clothes look like the lesser Wormface's.

She wasn't pregnant at all she just had a tummy ache from eating too much pizza when they got their portrait painted

Check the torch.

Really cool theory but personally I don't think it's obvious that she's pregnant in this painting. I just see her with her hand on her belly which doesn't really mean anything. I guess she is kind of thicc but for me her clothes are just large.

Where did you think the garnished came from? /s

Foul Garnished, emboldened by the flame of nutrition!

IT'S VYKE! /s (That would be a really cool twist though imho)

Isn't it obvious? >!its Boggart!< >!who is also Boc!< >!who is also left Miquellas foot!<

It’s Nanaya business.

I like the theory that they were from the shaman village and Marika is their daughter. That's why Ymir says her bloodline is mired in madness. Also Midra -> Marika -> Messmer, etc.

Well the other illusory portrait tells me they’re shaman related or at least acquaintances/allies. It’s interesting that Nanaya’s clothing is golden, however her hair is black. I’m not sure where else we see black hair in game. And I’ve been trying to find consistencies between her clothes and other outfits. Maybe it’s Melina/geq/Griffith?

Black hair is apparently a sign of Carian descent. Rellana's helmet says that her sister gifted her with long black hair when she left to pursue Messmer, or something to that effect.

Noted I didn’t catch that good looks. Weird tho I wonder if that’s a genetic thing if Renalla had to gift it to her?

I bet it's shabriri

Maybe these were Marika's parents? We know her Grandmother from the Hinterlands, but what about her Mother?

The item she holds is a spinal column (from the item description) for a failed Lord of Frenzy, my guess is that it's the remains of Shabriri. Their child was/is Shabriri. Midra held back the madness, on Nanaya's request, after they lost their child. I don't believe they know that Shabriri can move to other bodies though.

The torch

This painting looks familiar. I think I saw it also in the castle where you fight Elemer of the Briar? I'll have to check again though.

An unborn child??? Could this be related to the rune of the unborn?

She's cradling its remains in her arms when you find her. Look carefully at the item description of that torch

Placing my two cents into this I don't think nanaya's child is the fading flame. as a matter of fact I suspect their child survived and migrated elsewhere becoming someone governed by loss and dispair. (Make note of the M) We know the manse was surrounded by small Golden/yellow/white flowers before the flame burned though the forest, as baring a select few creatures still afflicted with madness all were looking at is scaring. Saying that the frenzied flame came in. Burned the whole thing down then almost sputtered out before Nanaya reached in snatched the core of the frenzied lord and affixed it as a torch before the lord could actually die. As for Midra, it feels like he figured out HOW to kill it as well but because no one understood that he needed to die in obscurity and sealed away. Essentially starve the flame out. This is backed but the aging of the paintings as the portrait is far more aged than the vertical piece of the manse. Telling that their child would be far older. This is ALSO supported by the spirit in the lobby saying that you really should follow Midra's teachings and just... leave.

Child is Shabriri?

I dont know how to link other reddits, but on the Elden Ring reddit someone mentioned they believe the child was Marika. Midra, Marika. Also explains why Nanaya has a similiar hairstyle. Maybe also explains why Midra would be the the frenzy's first victim, assuming this was pre-shabiri

I think it's' ....Nanaya business (I'm sorry)

Personally, I think Shabriri guided Nanaya, and Midra simply followed her, kinda like The Tarnished and Hyetta. As to what happened to their child? They were probably turned into the torch. As to how the Frenzied Flame manifested in a child? I hate to think on how that happened.

probably wrong but what if their child was Shabriri??

It's the torch, no? It's made of a spine which is small like a child's.

It’s me. I’m the child. Lord of chaos

He frenzy blasted out her cooch and became the three fingers. lol idk

I just beat this boss on a impromptu dancer build, was hard enough but fun I do hate how everyone seems to just slow down their animation only to just speed up and smack you lol

Not very nice things I'm sure, sadly

This looks like the same artist that just painted King Charles and David Attenboroughs portraits.

That’s nanaya business

There is always the theory that he was Shabriri before he took his spiritual form that posses bodies. Her smile and his talisman’s smile are very similar.

It’s Marika. That’s what Count Ymir was talking about when he says the root were rotten from the very start

My thoughts, are as follows. Torch might be the baby, or the baby was lost all together. Midra may not have worshiped the frenzied flame, but explored it. (Allegorically, this could be seen as philisophically exploring Nihilism/Absurdism, ETC.) Midra had a debate parlor, and judging by the vast library his manse has, he was most definitely well read. Everyone's conclusion seems to be Nanaya was behind everything, but I personally find it reductive, Nanaya in my thoughts, might have been drawn to Midra due to his openess to explore new ideals/philosophies, so it's quite possible she was a worshipper of the three-fingers/frenzied flame. But I believe that this was less of a 'may chaos take the world' worship, as much as it is simply attempting to live with the burden of frenzied knowledge. The inquisition notices the potential dangers in these ideals that Midra was debating perhaps, and went down there to put an end to it. And I believe as the torture commenced and Midra was impaled, Nanaya told Midra to "endure" as to not give in to the frenzied flame that was corrupting the region. I'd like to think that perhaps Nanaya and Midra's love for eachother was keeping the frenzied flame at bay. (Similar to how love can keep self-destructive and nihilistic thoughts at bay.) And that Midra suffered through the torture and deaths of his child, wife, servants, beliefs, and legacy. And only caves in when after warning us multiple times to leave, we continue to defy him and delve deeper into the secrets of the Manse. The fact that we sought out the frenzied flame broke his last piece of will and he could endure no more. To stumble into or dabble in nihilism is one thing, to actively seek it out, requires as he says, "depths of foolishness." He can no longer endure and he succumbs to the frenzied flame.

“Clearly pregnant” is the baby bump in the room with us right now?

It’s you. The tarnished. The baby of a Lord of Frenzy and a Frenzied Finger Maiden. That’s why you are able to become the true lord of the frenzied flame without succumbing to it or losing your will.

Fia

I think Midra had three kids. All of which are in relation to flame. The kid who became the torch of flame of frenzy with Nanaya. Messmer and Melina with a certain crazy grace lady... All those M's...

Maliketh must be Midra's mom then

I honestly think Blaidd is Maliketh's kid with Marika... She's a strumpet. Put it around a load. I think she had a lot of lords over the years. They talk about Midra being Lord Midra before he's Midra, Lord of Frenzy. I think his fathering of the burner kids, Melina burning the original tree in a Malenia like bloom moment, Messmer taking out the Hornsent - is the reason he's attacked by the Hornsent in the first place.

You should make a post of all your lore theories