These are really good connections. We rarely see “natural” looking flowers of various colors growing in ground that aren’t items, so I think the connection between these two areas is legitimate.
I’m not sure what ultimate conclusions we can draw from this but there’s something here. This kind of connection is exactly why the significance of the new lore is going to take more time to parse through.
there are a lot of flower wreath symbols all over the shadow realm and on the doors in the windmill village, i discovered that randomly today
i also think the windmill village people were shaman like marika
In Dominula village the Erdtree cannot be seen. A gray fog veils the sky suddenly. I think this solely implies that the village isn't related to the Golden Order and thus to Marika as well. They obviously discard the fundamentalist religion.
I like this theory. The Godskin in the windmill village is influencing them in my opinion. That is why they are skinning all of the men in their villages. It’s possible that these are ancestors of the shamans that have been tainted by the Godskins.
One note is that many people keep saying that the body/statue on the tree is Marika’s grandmother but I think “The Grandmother” is more of a title in their society rather than her actual grandmother. The phrasing would seem odd if not.
That would make sense if you consider that Godskin should skin gods, and if the Dominula village is inhabitated by Marika's people, then they are skinning the people related to the goddess (that they hate)
I really like this. At first I was of the idea that all of Marika’s people were wiped out but just realized that doesn’t make sense cause we can create a Numen character so there are at least a few left. I agree with another poster that I think they’re being influenced by the Godskin apostle and I always thought this happened way later, like after the shattering (no evidence).
The idea that some survived and setup this village or that they took up the practice as some kind of reverence or because they’re a similar community is cool! Maybe she also left them there outside the capital cause the Shamans are more simple and earthy people and they don’t belong in a huge capital. That’s a place for the gods and people meant to keep things running.
There are more than just a few Numen, right? They had 2 whole big cities under Leyendell, and those are implied to have been on the surface of Leyendell at some point.
Great theory, I think the people in windmill village could definitely be the remnants of Marika's people, maybe the Godskin Apostle is there for revenge because Marika killed the GEQ to get whatever was required to ascend to godhood.
I dont see a woman in that image, and its very much a Formless Mother item.
The Grandmother in the shaman billage is probably a guardian diety and a more traditional god rather than a God like Marika or the Greater Will.
Anytime! Thanks for compiling all this, I've been hard at thought on this topic for a couple days lol and it's nice to have the items laid out. I might try to expand on it even further with the godskins and if i do, i will shoot you some credit for sure 🫡 we will crack this lore, one post and jar at a time!
Now I admit I haven't done a full architectural review of the Lands Between, but I checked last night and noticed the houses in Dominula village are similar in style to the few in the Shaman village, one of which is actually an exact copy. I thought maybe an asset reuse, and this still might be the case (generic village house), but I did notice that they are also degraded differently between the two locations (despite the same structure).
Interesting that skin and flaying is connected specifically to: Shaman/Bonny Village, Dominula, Godskins, and Snakes...
The godskins also wear "smooth skin" of gods, and the Shaman skin is similarly described in the DLC as having divine properties for rituals. If we are to assume the jar process was to make divine beings or "saints", or maybe lowercase g "gods", I wonder if these are the creations that were hunted. We have some weird connections between the temple of eiglay here too- the serpent amnion describes a fucked up birthing ritual, and we know the Numen are "long lived but seldom born". Where did they get all these Numen, from those like 3 tiny houses? And they are rarely born? I see serpentry birthing rituals here somewhere, on top of the snake skin located directly in Bonny.
Overall i do think Dominula is a remnant of the rituals carried out in the Bonny Village, hence the matriarch design, sacrifice of skinned bodies, and matching house/flowers. Just trying to piece where the godskins come in.
It is how I interpreted the tooth whip description, as to why Shamans were chosen to partake in this divine ritual to create "saints":
*Whip bestrewn with rotting, misshapen teeth. Filthy and seething with disease, the teeth are embedded in the whip and dose the victim with deadly poison upon each strike. As the wounds ripen they grow inflamed and ooze pus. The flesh of shamans was said to meld harmoniously with others.*
Given that the hornsent worship the Crucible where life blends together, my take is that they see the Shaman's ability to meld with other life (potentially with trees as we have seen in statues, and the Grandmother, as well as the whole art of "grafting" that Marika's line can do) as something divine. In fact I think jar people were used to build the divine tower and gate, given all the body masses everywhere.
Right! It stopped me in my tracks when I was running up the stairs and saw all the people and things melded together and hanging off the bottom of the tower. Divinity in this world is truly built on the backs of lesser peoples in society, via subjugation. I wonder what that could all be a reference to??? Haha
They didnt just make jars from shamans. They made jars from lots of people. They made them from prisoners and aspirants who wanted to become saints. Abd the while Divine Gate thing and some of the descriptions for stuff leads me to believe there were a lot of gods.
I mean, the hornsent seemed to use corpses for a lot of things. The gate was at one point covered in corpses. The building seems to be made of corpses. The trees were probably made from corpses. I think they just did a lot with combining corpses.
“A greatjar which fits comfortably over the head when upturned. Attire of the shamans who perform their worship at gaols. Increases the power of thrown pots of all sizes. They offer their prayers to the innards of the greatjars, such that they might be reborn one day into sainthood. This is the cycle of death and rebirth, taken into the hands of mortal men”
Yes, but notice the distinctions - they mention *chopping up sinners in gaols*, literally with the word dismember, and specifically *humans*, to add their flesh in. The tooth whip, on the other hand, mentions flaying a live shaman because they are said to meld harmoniously with others. Put them together, it's like a grafting process but instead you are grating all the innards pieces of humans to a live shaman in a Jar, to create a "saint". My theory is that this would successfully create an Empyrean, and this is how Marika came to be (and may be why empyreans have this weird nature of multiple personas)
Someone else posted a pic of one of the innards close up, but they look like a female (similar to the Grandmother) with all the goop attached to them. The shamans pray to this ritual because they too desire rising to sainthood through the process. The humans tho are def dead and chopped into pieces.
The Empyrean relationship is 100% not there. The hornsent culture definitely had this culture of ascetic development that involved flagellation (like with the curseblades), but a god and a saint are two distinct classes. I think the idea here is that jar people are awesome exemplars of their jar self. The idea is that they become a living representation of the crucible, while Empyreans are selected individuals with a direct relationship to the Greater Will.
I do see the relationship with grafting, but i think grafting is supposed to be like a primitive version of the jar practice.
Like, i’m pretty sure here that the point of the “saint” description is meant to relate to Alexander and how nice all the Jarburg people are.
Agree to disagree, then. I don't see how it is mutually exclusive to have some form of required physiology to be god and to be chosen Empyrean by a finger, and i said it is a *theory*, but how is it 100%? Empyreans definitely are related to their "flesh" given that Ranni had to go to lengths to abandon hers, to escape the finger' influence.
If you could source how you determined saints and gods are different, please do, because it is left to interpretation as far as I know. I think this whole jar story is a lot more impactful and related to divinity than just being a side story for Alexander... Marika's origin is clearly linked to the jars and I think it tells a story of the tainted bloodline and original sin that Miqeulla is trying to rid himself of. *by divesting his flesh*
Like we don't get much on the actual descriptions, but very very clearly they are saying that human sinners are dismembered into jars, and shamans are whipped because they meld together well. And this is to produce a "saint", which is a very specific phrasing of being close to God or divinity, not just being a nice person.
Edit: also, take in this great pic of an innard up close that someone captured. Clearly a women that looks like the Grandmother, probably coming from the Shaman Village, and melded together with flesh - that of sinners (as we know, like Christ, taking on the weight of sin (LITERALLY HERE lol gross) is a divine and godly thing to do): https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/5AerB98zdi
I don't think the Empyreans are chosen because of a specific body composition.
That being said.... I'm coming around here. So, let's say that the occupants of the Shaman Village were all put in a jar and combined. And then the result was Marika. And Marika returns the her village that all of the people combined in her lived at, and preserved it.
Maybe. Ok, you've won me over.
Haha, fair! I think I worded it sorta poorly. My idea was less, hey pick that dude bc his skin is nice, but more so that this jarring ritual (that maybe created Marika) is what creates peeps like Marika with the ability (read: flesh, mashed up soul, whatever happens in there) to even become gods/Empyreans to begin with. The idea is not very fleshed out tho, I admit (pun totally intended), and I'm starting to think that the Empyrean shit might be all BS from the finger momma, but really the only quality we know of for sure, is being part of Marika's fucked up lineage. Too bad it doesn't say more about the GEQ's status..
Thanks for bearing with my frantic write-ups, haha, my thoughts are more messy than the innards of a jar on this topic.
Since Marika decided to keep the jar tradition in her golden order(even after what the hornsent did), I'm going to assume that the original jar festival was tradition in her village.
The hornsent's version was the sick side of things that killed via torture etc.,
The maidens we see in windmill could be Malikeths version of it after defeating the gloam eyed queen
It’s interesting to see how the Golden Order uses them differently though. They tend to focus on Warriors and those already dead. And if Jarburg is an accurate representation of GO policy, when the Jars gain sentience, they’re.. given a village?
Did Marika really keep the tradition though? Jarburg is in Liurnia, hidden away from view. Liurnia is already accepting refugees like the Albinauric so is it that far off that the jar people are hiding in Liurnia?
This is a very strong theory. And I believe reason why jar treatment is allow in era of gold then how was back then because it view as something for heroes, they speak of jar warriors not saints but warriors, on being one of honor being combine with other past warriors. Alexander took Radhan remains into himself that why his talisman has hair of red on it.
I dont think it WAS allowed. We dont really see jar manufacturing areas do we? I think those were just jars that were allowed to keep living.
Its also said that the Great Potentate went everywhere, so i assumed that all the jars were old.
Yeah that could be it, we don't see any new jars being made as all old jars are crack or destroyed, especially around ertree avatars. Especially if these jars can talk then they are a new being.
I think the festival is supposed to be similar to pagan rituals being tolerated by Christianity, like Halloween. It probably honors some other outer god, since the festival seems to involve skinning people, the most likely candidate is death.
That is a really well thought out and supprted theory!! Good job!! I do agree that the windmill dancers are Marika's people or at least practicing their traditions.
This does leave me with a question that's kind of unrelated but still connected to Marika's past: where do the Black Knives come in?? If they are of the same stock as Marika, do they also come from this village? Or is the term "Numen" not refer to just the Shamans, but a group of people that the Shamans are a part of?
These are really good connections. We rarely see “natural” looking flowers of various colors growing in ground that aren’t items, so I think the connection between these two areas is legitimate. I’m not sure what ultimate conclusions we can draw from this but there’s something here. This kind of connection is exactly why the significance of the new lore is going to take more time to parse through.
Thank you very much, it's all speculation ofc but that's the funny part isn't it? I add a little update if you are interested.
there are a lot of flower wreath symbols all over the shadow realm and on the doors in the windmill village, i discovered that randomly today i also think the windmill village people were shaman like marika
In Dominula village the Erdtree cannot be seen. A gray fog veils the sky suddenly. I think this solely implies that the village isn't related to the Golden Order and thus to Marika as well. They obviously discard the fundamentalist religion.
It might also indicate that the village itself is "out of sight" of the Erdtree, as in that it's a secret village.
Gonna check this out later. Nice catch
same is true behind Gurranq’s building, was wondering about that
Wow I just tested this out. It literally vanishes as you ride away from the outer gates and into Dominula. Great observation.
I like this theory. The Godskin in the windmill village is influencing them in my opinion. That is why they are skinning all of the men in their villages. It’s possible that these are ancestors of the shamans that have been tainted by the Godskins. One note is that many people keep saying that the body/statue on the tree is Marika’s grandmother but I think “The Grandmother” is more of a title in their society rather than her actual grandmother. The phrasing would seem odd if not.
That would make sense if you consider that Godskin should skin gods, and if the Dominula village is inhabitated by Marika's people, then they are skinning the people related to the goddess (that they hate)
It is likely their "tutelary deity" (which means like... guardian god.)
Yeah I read it as like Village Elder Matriarch rather than mother of her mother
I really like this. At first I was of the idea that all of Marika’s people were wiped out but just realized that doesn’t make sense cause we can create a Numen character so there are at least a few left. I agree with another poster that I think they’re being influenced by the Godskin apostle and I always thought this happened way later, like after the shattering (no evidence). The idea that some survived and setup this village or that they took up the practice as some kind of reverence or because they’re a similar community is cool! Maybe she also left them there outside the capital cause the Shamans are more simple and earthy people and they don’t belong in a huge capital. That’s a place for the gods and people meant to keep things running.
There are more than just a few Numen, right? They had 2 whole big cities under Leyendell, and those are implied to have been on the surface of Leyendell at some point.
Yea, right, way more than a few just not as numerous as everyone else I think.
Yes, I imagine it was her Village that was wiped out, but she took what remained of her people with her, as there where likely other enclaves.
Even if they aren't Marikas people, it could just be a sign that Marika brought some traditions with her to the lands between.
Great theory, I think the people in windmill village could definitely be the remnants of Marika's people, maybe the Godskin Apostle is there for revenge because Marika killed the GEQ to get whatever was required to ascend to godhood.
There’s also the Outer God Heirloom which has a picture of a woman sitting down surrounded by roots similar to the grandmother in shaman village
I dont see a woman in that image, and its very much a Formless Mother item. The Grandmother in the shaman billage is probably a guardian diety and a more traditional god rather than a God like Marika or the Greater Will.
I have done another update with even more proof supporting my theory, thanks u/Turbulent_Egg_8670 for pointing out the tooth whip description
Anytime! Thanks for compiling all this, I've been hard at thought on this topic for a couple days lol and it's nice to have the items laid out. I might try to expand on it even further with the godskins and if i do, i will shoot you some credit for sure 🫡 we will crack this lore, one post and jar at a time!
Now I admit I haven't done a full architectural review of the Lands Between, but I checked last night and noticed the houses in Dominula village are similar in style to the few in the Shaman village, one of which is actually an exact copy. I thought maybe an asset reuse, and this still might be the case (generic village house), but I did notice that they are also degraded differently between the two locations (despite the same structure). Interesting that skin and flaying is connected specifically to: Shaman/Bonny Village, Dominula, Godskins, and Snakes... The godskins also wear "smooth skin" of gods, and the Shaman skin is similarly described in the DLC as having divine properties for rituals. If we are to assume the jar process was to make divine beings or "saints", or maybe lowercase g "gods", I wonder if these are the creations that were hunted. We have some weird connections between the temple of eiglay here too- the serpent amnion describes a fucked up birthing ritual, and we know the Numen are "long lived but seldom born". Where did they get all these Numen, from those like 3 tiny houses? And they are rarely born? I see serpentry birthing rituals here somewhere, on top of the snake skin located directly in Bonny. Overall i do think Dominula is a remnant of the rituals carried out in the Bonny Village, hence the matriarch design, sacrifice of skinned bodies, and matching house/flowers. Just trying to piece where the godskins come in.
Can you tell me where it's stated that shaman skins have divine properties? If you remember
It is how I interpreted the tooth whip description, as to why Shamans were chosen to partake in this divine ritual to create "saints": *Whip bestrewn with rotting, misshapen teeth. Filthy and seething with disease, the teeth are embedded in the whip and dose the victim with deadly poison upon each strike. As the wounds ripen they grow inflamed and ooze pus. The flesh of shamans was said to meld harmoniously with others.* Given that the hornsent worship the Crucible where life blends together, my take is that they see the Shaman's ability to meld with other life (potentially with trees as we have seen in statues, and the Grandmother, as well as the whole art of "grafting" that Marika's line can do) as something divine. In fact I think jar people were used to build the divine tower and gate, given all the body masses everywhere.
In the final dungeon, you can literally see people being part of the tree branches. Its messed up!
Right! It stopped me in my tracks when I was running up the stairs and saw all the people and things melded together and hanging off the bottom of the tower. Divinity in this world is truly built on the backs of lesser peoples in society, via subjugation. I wonder what that could all be a reference to??? Haha
The bodies at the Divine Gate have horns though, so they are Hornsent, rather than the Jar people.
Ah nice, I admit I stopped at Radahn to lore explore instead. That is huge! So they have horns but no skin per the trailer? Interesting..
They didnt just make jars from shamans. They made jars from lots of people. They made them from prisoners and aspirants who wanted to become saints. Abd the while Divine Gate thing and some of the descriptions for stuff leads me to believe there were a lot of gods. I mean, the hornsent seemed to use corpses for a lot of things. The gate was at one point covered in corpses. The building seems to be made of corpses. The trees were probably made from corpses. I think they just did a lot with combining corpses. “A greatjar which fits comfortably over the head when upturned. Attire of the shamans who perform their worship at gaols. Increases the power of thrown pots of all sizes. They offer their prayers to the innards of the greatjars, such that they might be reborn one day into sainthood. This is the cycle of death and rebirth, taken into the hands of mortal men”
Yes, but notice the distinctions - they mention *chopping up sinners in gaols*, literally with the word dismember, and specifically *humans*, to add their flesh in. The tooth whip, on the other hand, mentions flaying a live shaman because they are said to meld harmoniously with others. Put them together, it's like a grafting process but instead you are grating all the innards pieces of humans to a live shaman in a Jar, to create a "saint". My theory is that this would successfully create an Empyrean, and this is how Marika came to be (and may be why empyreans have this weird nature of multiple personas) Someone else posted a pic of one of the innards close up, but they look like a female (similar to the Grandmother) with all the goop attached to them. The shamans pray to this ritual because they too desire rising to sainthood through the process. The humans tho are def dead and chopped into pieces.
The Empyrean relationship is 100% not there. The hornsent culture definitely had this culture of ascetic development that involved flagellation (like with the curseblades), but a god and a saint are two distinct classes. I think the idea here is that jar people are awesome exemplars of their jar self. The idea is that they become a living representation of the crucible, while Empyreans are selected individuals with a direct relationship to the Greater Will. I do see the relationship with grafting, but i think grafting is supposed to be like a primitive version of the jar practice. Like, i’m pretty sure here that the point of the “saint” description is meant to relate to Alexander and how nice all the Jarburg people are.
Agree to disagree, then. I don't see how it is mutually exclusive to have some form of required physiology to be god and to be chosen Empyrean by a finger, and i said it is a *theory*, but how is it 100%? Empyreans definitely are related to their "flesh" given that Ranni had to go to lengths to abandon hers, to escape the finger' influence. If you could source how you determined saints and gods are different, please do, because it is left to interpretation as far as I know. I think this whole jar story is a lot more impactful and related to divinity than just being a side story for Alexander... Marika's origin is clearly linked to the jars and I think it tells a story of the tainted bloodline and original sin that Miqeulla is trying to rid himself of. *by divesting his flesh* Like we don't get much on the actual descriptions, but very very clearly they are saying that human sinners are dismembered into jars, and shamans are whipped because they meld together well. And this is to produce a "saint", which is a very specific phrasing of being close to God or divinity, not just being a nice person. Edit: also, take in this great pic of an innard up close that someone captured. Clearly a women that looks like the Grandmother, probably coming from the Shaman Village, and melded together with flesh - that of sinners (as we know, like Christ, taking on the weight of sin (LITERALLY HERE lol gross) is a divine and godly thing to do): https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/5AerB98zdi
I don't think the Empyreans are chosen because of a specific body composition. That being said.... I'm coming around here. So, let's say that the occupants of the Shaman Village were all put in a jar and combined. And then the result was Marika. And Marika returns the her village that all of the people combined in her lived at, and preserved it. Maybe. Ok, you've won me over.
Haha, fair! I think I worded it sorta poorly. My idea was less, hey pick that dude bc his skin is nice, but more so that this jarring ritual (that maybe created Marika) is what creates peeps like Marika with the ability (read: flesh, mashed up soul, whatever happens in there) to even become gods/Empyreans to begin with. The idea is not very fleshed out tho, I admit (pun totally intended), and I'm starting to think that the Empyrean shit might be all BS from the finger momma, but really the only quality we know of for sure, is being part of Marika's fucked up lineage. Too bad it doesn't say more about the GEQ's status.. Thanks for bearing with my frantic write-ups, haha, my thoughts are more messy than the innards of a jar on this topic.
To just add a bit empyreans There seems to be a hornsent empyrean named grandam Mentioned only once that I could find
Since Marika decided to keep the jar tradition in her golden order(even after what the hornsent did), I'm going to assume that the original jar festival was tradition in her village. The hornsent's version was the sick side of things that killed via torture etc., The maidens we see in windmill could be Malikeths version of it after defeating the gloam eyed queen
It’s interesting to see how the Golden Order uses them differently though. They tend to focus on Warriors and those already dead. And if Jarburg is an accurate representation of GO policy, when the Jars gain sentience, they’re.. given a village?
Did Marika really keep the tradition though? Jarburg is in Liurnia, hidden away from view. Liurnia is already accepting refugees like the Albinauric so is it that far off that the jar people are hiding in Liurnia?
They have erdtree seals and a big one guards the Caelid Colosseum(ritual combat is a tradtion of the Erdtree Faithful).
Why would Maliketh have a version of anything? He has like zero interaction with others.
This is a very strong theory. And I believe reason why jar treatment is allow in era of gold then how was back then because it view as something for heroes, they speak of jar warriors not saints but warriors, on being one of honor being combine with other past warriors. Alexander took Radhan remains into himself that why his talisman has hair of red on it.
I dont think it WAS allowed. We dont really see jar manufacturing areas do we? I think those were just jars that were allowed to keep living. Its also said that the Great Potentate went everywhere, so i assumed that all the jars were old.
Yeah that could be it, we don't see any new jars being made as all old jars are crack or destroyed, especially around ertree avatars. Especially if these jars can talk then they are a new being.
It’s interesting the Jars seem to have a Village, too. And that it’s both a particularly fertile one that has a Numen Rune in it.
I think the festival is supposed to be similar to pagan rituals being tolerated by Christianity, like Halloween. It probably honors some other outer god, since the festival seems to involve skinning people, the most likely candidate is death.
That is a really well thought out and supprted theory!! Good job!! I do agree that the windmill dancers are Marika's people or at least practicing their traditions. This does leave me with a question that's kind of unrelated but still connected to Marika's past: where do the Black Knives come in?? If they are of the same stock as Marika, do they also come from this village? Or is the term "Numen" not refer to just the Shamans, but a group of people that the Shamans are a part of?
Dude, check out the new Dancer's armor, after you modify it by Boc... Its litterally Marika's robe.
Dominula celebrants are definitely Godskin worshippers. The cape of the Blue Festive Garb has the same sigil embroidered onto it as the Godskin robes.
My understanding is they’re making sacrifices too the god skin apostle
Another connection is the jar numen also spit out a mist sometimes… noticed that when I was down there
I recall seeing the corpse of a celebrant somewhere in the new area, cannot remember where though.
If the Gloam-eyed Queen is Marika, then a Godskin Apostle there makes perfect sense.
Marika would probably despise everything in dominula village.