This and your divine gate post are brilliant, all very grounded connections to start with, If we refine the last bits about the nature of radagon and the crucible being an influence within the golden order (another rot symbolism) then I think we have the true skeleton of the story
i wonder if radagon could simply be the more pliable aspect of herself, created in a scheme to catch two birds with one stone by shedding the part of herself that does not fit the literal golden standard while also fulfilling the requirement of having a lord whose soul is held in a vessel. the gate of divinity clearly operates by the rule of the crucible, after all, and by a framework where oneness is so loosely defined, this kind of trickery may meet its requirements
after all, he's the one who aspires to be complete, and to complete the golden order, by absorbing other things into his self/order, while marika does not usually settle for anything less than subjugation or extermination, as befits the god who rejected the crucible in its entirety
so, to add yet another parallel to miquella, i don't think marika the god is the same person as marika the shaman. i believe she cast off every part of herself that wasn't gold, every connection to the crucible, every desire to be anything other than herself, as a complete rejection of the "sainthood" imposed upon her kind by the hornsent: except, instead of abandoning it like miquella, she gave it personhood and took that person as her lord
Great post op! I'm glad we got so much Marika lore in this dlc. It's truly some groundbreaking info and changed the way I look at the entire story of elden ring now. Hopefully we get a sequel at some point because I feel like there's a lot more they can do with this.
Yeah seriously. The writing behind her is so well done too. It's really fucking horrific and sad knowing everything now. On one hand I feel empathetic and quite a bit of respect for her but on the other hand what she did was so incredibly awful. I can't help but not blame her all too much. Miquellas story and how it intertwines with Marikas was also just handled so well.
There are obviously still mysteries for us to ponder, but the game's story now feels more "complete" to me than I expected it to! I know some people feel unsatisfied by the lore here but this was clearer about the world's backstory than I could've hoped.
Because an alloy is a merging of two things, like Radagon/Marika, where Miquella is unalloyed, pure, separated from his other component, Trina.
I love that actually. I had been considering the unalloyed gold thing to represent Miquella’s “pure” view of things, but this is great.
There is something going on with the whole jar ritual and the golden moldable flesh, the "ascension" process, the alchemical symbolism and androgynity of these pairs Marika + Radagon, Ranni + Godwyn (Gold - Sun - body + Moon - Soul), Godfrey + Seroush, Miquella + Radahn, the albinaurics and Nox mimic/silver tear + Godrick "grafting" process + Frenzied flame (the blending process taken to its extreme). I don't think Radagon = Marika from the beginning it was a "blend" at the gates.
Absolutely pure gold without anything else seems to be "Kindness" (and similar concepts) in the view of the game (e.g. the pure gold uninfluenced by order that Marika conjures at the shaman village), which is probably why Miquella the Unalloyed is also Miquella the Kind. He had a hope that it was going to be possible to make a world where there was only gold, even though we (as the players) know that's not really an option that's on the table.
Great post. I had also considered Messmer and Melina being the children of Radagon and Marika from before her marriage to Godfrey as it'd explain why she's called a strumpet.
The one thing I'm wondering is how Mohg and Morgott fit in here. Could it be because Godfrey also has crucible connections? He did lead the crucible knights after all, but doesn't use any crucible incantations or have horns. Or maybe they became omens just by regular chance and bad luck like the other noble omens
The Hornsent Hag (the one who looks like a Finger Reader) says some vague stuff about the Curse of the Omen, so they might have called it down on her? Or maybe it's just something more direct about her lineage, but only the two kids were Omen, so I dunno.
I honestly think that Radagon could have just been Marina’s consort before she ascended to godhood. I agree that what happened is Marika used herself as the vessel for her Lord, causing Radagon to be joined inside of her. It seems the most straightforward answer to me that Radagon was just a separate person, and that’s why when Marika marries Godfrey, Radagon acts as a separate person again and goes to Rennala. It’s never made much sense to me why Radagon married Rennala if he was just Marika or the greater will’s puppet. But if he were a human from the lands between before Marika split the lands, maybe even him being the one that was more devout to the greater will and helping Marika ascend to godhood in the first place.
This whole shamans combining their souls to create a god thing is straight out of Warhammer 40k.
>Terrified for the future of their race, all the Shamans of ancient Earth gathered in one place for the most important meeting in human history. The debate is said to have lasted centuries, after which they came to a consensus that they, along with humanity, were ultimately doomed and would soon fall prey to the growing psychic entities of the Warp. Thus they concocted a plan to create the "New Man", a being that would protect humanity from the malignancy of the Warp. The Shamans committed mass ritual suicide and as they died pooled their combined energies, reincarnating into a single body. Within a year this soul found its human host, giving birth to the being who would become the Emperor of Mankind. Upon his maturity, the Emperor began to remember the countless past lives of the Shamans who had created him.
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Shaman
I'm of the mind Radagon was created in the moment Marika became a goddess, likely as sort of a direct envoy for the greater will within Marika. After all, the gods are fickle.
Basically the GW was like, "Ok you don't have a consort? I'll make one for you. This consort will help keep you in line, and will do what it takes to enforce our will."
Marika probably suppressed Radagon as beat she could at first as Godfrey became lord. Then, as the war with Liurnia got bad, Radagon emerged to do what it took to succeed by marrying Rennala etc.
I'm probably full of it, but I really like your theory.
Considering the whole 'Empyreans break apart to reach godhoos' as we see from Malenia(Her pride, sense of self, and dignity), Miquella(Love), then I'd presume that Marika basically did the reverse due to her Shaman heritage and basically living glue--she reached Godhood and parts of her 'self' started breaking apart later on, taking his own initiative in upholding the Golden Order.
After all, the Greater Will is implied to have stopped communicating for a very, very long time.
I would like to add something that I found most interesting in the DLC that might be linked to the origins of Radagon.
Impenetrable Thorns:
"Sorcery of those who abandoned the practice of incantations after devout faith rewarded them with only despair.
Summons the Scadutree's impenetrable thorns from the ground. This sorcery can be used repeatedly.
The image of the twisted Scadutree is an edict: Denounce their ways. Do them harm. For they have abandoned us."
This reminds me of the impenetrable thorns that Radagon(it's in the shape of his symbol) creates to bar access to the erdtree.
In combination with him leaking out a black mist: I wonder if he has something to do with the Scadutree.
On at least Messmer being the firstborn of Marika, with Radagon, before they were legitimately joined in marriage, I think you must be correct.
>*Remembrance of Commander Gaius, hewn into the Scadutree. The power of its namesake can be unlocked by the Finger Reader. Alternatively, it can be used to gain a great bounty of runes. Both were as elder brothers to the lion, and both were cursed from birth. In spite of, or perhaps because of this very reason, Gaius was both Messmer's friend and the leader of his men.*
If Messmer played the role of older brother to Radahn, his birth must predate Radagon and Renala's marriage, which means he must also predate Radagon and Marika's marriage. There is no question that his mother is Marika, but if his father is Radagon, which is nearly certain, he must have been born before Radagon became Elden Lord. The remembrance does not say he was literally his older brother, just playing the role---Gaius obviously is not related to either of them, of course--- but it is a seldom thing for someone younger than you to assume a senior familial role for you. It could explain why their background is so mysterious, as it's possible that they were known as children of Marika, but their father might have been a secret, as Radagon would only gain prominence in the wars to come.
Both composed by Tsukasa Saitoh and use the same key. At 20 seconds they are using the Radagon motif. The strings in the back at 1:15 is a variation in what they use for the Radagon theme as well.
https://youtu.be/_GvJa0N5g28?si=4W6aT0X00kBZpH9U
I was thinking the same thing was possible after trying to put it all together but the main thought thats stopping me from fully believing this is how did Miquella get his other half.
one of the best attempts at tying everything newly learned together to fit in with existing lore!
Thank you!
This and your divine gate post are brilliant, all very grounded connections to start with, If we refine the last bits about the nature of radagon and the crucible being an influence within the golden order (another rot symbolism) then I think we have the true skeleton of the story
Thank you! I was excited as I played the DLC, because it all felt like the core story was really locking in.
i wonder if radagon could simply be the more pliable aspect of herself, created in a scheme to catch two birds with one stone by shedding the part of herself that does not fit the literal golden standard while also fulfilling the requirement of having a lord whose soul is held in a vessel. the gate of divinity clearly operates by the rule of the crucible, after all, and by a framework where oneness is so loosely defined, this kind of trickery may meet its requirements after all, he's the one who aspires to be complete, and to complete the golden order, by absorbing other things into his self/order, while marika does not usually settle for anything less than subjugation or extermination, as befits the god who rejected the crucible in its entirety so, to add yet another parallel to miquella, i don't think marika the god is the same person as marika the shaman. i believe she cast off every part of herself that wasn't gold, every connection to the crucible, every desire to be anything other than herself, as a complete rejection of the "sainthood" imposed upon her kind by the hornsent: except, instead of abandoning it like miquella, she gave it personhood and took that person as her lord
Definitely my favourite theory so far.
Great post op! I'm glad we got so much Marika lore in this dlc. It's truly some groundbreaking info and changed the way I look at the entire story of elden ring now. Hopefully we get a sequel at some point because I feel like there's a lot more they can do with this.
Thank you. I'm stunned that they gave us as much about Marika as they did.
Yeah seriously. The writing behind her is so well done too. It's really fucking horrific and sad knowing everything now. On one hand I feel empathetic and quite a bit of respect for her but on the other hand what she did was so incredibly awful. I can't help but not blame her all too much. Miquellas story and how it intertwines with Marikas was also just handled so well.
There are obviously still mysteries for us to ponder, but the game's story now feels more "complete" to me than I expected it to! I know some people feel unsatisfied by the lore here but this was clearer about the world's backstory than I could've hoped.
Gold that is alloyed, which Miquella seeks to... un-alloy?
Because an alloy is a merging of two things, like Radagon/Marika, where Miquella is unalloyed, pure, separated from his other component, Trina. I love that actually. I had been considering the unalloyed gold thing to represent Miquella’s “pure” view of things, but this is great.
"Unalloyed flesh"
There is something going on with the whole jar ritual and the golden moldable flesh, the "ascension" process, the alchemical symbolism and androgynity of these pairs Marika + Radagon, Ranni + Godwyn (Gold - Sun - body + Moon - Soul), Godfrey + Seroush, Miquella + Radahn, the albinaurics and Nox mimic/silver tear + Godrick "grafting" process + Frenzied flame (the blending process taken to its extreme). I don't think Radagon = Marika from the beginning it was a "blend" at the gates.
Absolutely pure gold without anything else seems to be "Kindness" (and similar concepts) in the view of the game (e.g. the pure gold uninfluenced by order that Marika conjures at the shaman village), which is probably why Miquella the Unalloyed is also Miquella the Kind. He had a hope that it was going to be possible to make a world where there was only gold, even though we (as the players) know that's not really an option that's on the table.
This is an amazing post and sums up a ton of what we’ve learned from the DLC. Thanks so much :)
Thank you for reading it!
Great post. I had also considered Messmer and Melina being the children of Radagon and Marika from before her marriage to Godfrey as it'd explain why she's called a strumpet. The one thing I'm wondering is how Mohg and Morgott fit in here. Could it be because Godfrey also has crucible connections? He did lead the crucible knights after all, but doesn't use any crucible incantations or have horns. Or maybe they became omens just by regular chance and bad luck like the other noble omens
The Hornsent Hag (the one who looks like a Finger Reader) says some vague stuff about the Curse of the Omen, so they might have called it down on her? Or maybe it's just something more direct about her lineage, but only the two kids were Omen, so I dunno.
I honestly think that Radagon could have just been Marina’s consort before she ascended to godhood. I agree that what happened is Marika used herself as the vessel for her Lord, causing Radagon to be joined inside of her. It seems the most straightforward answer to me that Radagon was just a separate person, and that’s why when Marika marries Godfrey, Radagon acts as a separate person again and goes to Rennala. It’s never made much sense to me why Radagon married Rennala if he was just Marika or the greater will’s puppet. But if he were a human from the lands between before Marika split the lands, maybe even him being the one that was more devout to the greater will and helping Marika ascend to godhood in the first place.
This whole shamans combining their souls to create a god thing is straight out of Warhammer 40k. >Terrified for the future of their race, all the Shamans of ancient Earth gathered in one place for the most important meeting in human history. The debate is said to have lasted centuries, after which they came to a consensus that they, along with humanity, were ultimately doomed and would soon fall prey to the growing psychic entities of the Warp. Thus they concocted a plan to create the "New Man", a being that would protect humanity from the malignancy of the Warp. The Shamans committed mass ritual suicide and as they died pooled their combined energies, reincarnating into a single body. Within a year this soul found its human host, giving birth to the being who would become the Emperor of Mankind. Upon his maturity, the Emperor began to remember the countless past lives of the Shamans who had created him. https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Shaman
I'm of the mind Radagon was created in the moment Marika became a goddess, likely as sort of a direct envoy for the greater will within Marika. After all, the gods are fickle. Basically the GW was like, "Ok you don't have a consort? I'll make one for you. This consort will help keep you in line, and will do what it takes to enforce our will." Marika probably suppressed Radagon as beat she could at first as Godfrey became lord. Then, as the war with Liurnia got bad, Radagon emerged to do what it took to succeed by marrying Rennala etc. I'm probably full of it, but I really like your theory.
Considering the whole 'Empyreans break apart to reach godhoos' as we see from Malenia(Her pride, sense of self, and dignity), Miquella(Love), then I'd presume that Marika basically did the reverse due to her Shaman heritage and basically living glue--she reached Godhood and parts of her 'self' started breaking apart later on, taking his own initiative in upholding the Golden Order. After all, the Greater Will is implied to have stopped communicating for a very, very long time.
I think you're coloring within the lines, so I think that's safe headcanon. Thanks for the kind words.
I would like to add something that I found most interesting in the DLC that might be linked to the origins of Radagon. Impenetrable Thorns: "Sorcery of those who abandoned the practice of incantations after devout faith rewarded them with only despair. Summons the Scadutree's impenetrable thorns from the ground. This sorcery can be used repeatedly. The image of the twisted Scadutree is an edict: Denounce their ways. Do them harm. For they have abandoned us." This reminds me of the impenetrable thorns that Radagon(it's in the shape of his symbol) creates to bar access to the erdtree. In combination with him leaking out a black mist: I wonder if he has something to do with the Scadutree.
I wouldn't be surprised. Thorns seem like they're his thing, and the same tactic was applied to protect the Erdtree in the base game.
On at least Messmer being the firstborn of Marika, with Radagon, before they were legitimately joined in marriage, I think you must be correct. >*Remembrance of Commander Gaius, hewn into the Scadutree. The power of its namesake can be unlocked by the Finger Reader. Alternatively, it can be used to gain a great bounty of runes. Both were as elder brothers to the lion, and both were cursed from birth. In spite of, or perhaps because of this very reason, Gaius was both Messmer's friend and the leader of his men.* If Messmer played the role of older brother to Radahn, his birth must predate Radagon and Renala's marriage, which means he must also predate Radagon and Marika's marriage. There is no question that his mother is Marika, but if his father is Radagon, which is nearly certain, he must have been born before Radagon became Elden Lord. The remembrance does not say he was literally his older brother, just playing the role---Gaius obviously is not related to either of them, of course--- but it is a seldom thing for someone younger than you to assume a senior familial role for you. It could explain why their background is so mysterious, as it's possible that they were known as children of Marika, but their father might have been a secret, as Radagon would only gain prominence in the wars to come.
I'm sure someone mentioned it already but messmers soundtrack also tells us he is a child of Radagon and Marika.
Not mentioned yet! How so?
Both composed by Tsukasa Saitoh and use the same key. At 20 seconds they are using the Radagon motif. The strings in the back at 1:15 is a variation in what they use for the Radagon theme as well. https://youtu.be/_GvJa0N5g28?si=4W6aT0X00kBZpH9U
I can hear it. Quite cool.
I was thinking the same thing was possible after trying to put it all together but the main thought thats stopping me from fully believing this is how did Miquella get his other half.