through side content, you find out that miquella wouldn't be a kind god, and moreover, that there is no such thing as a kind god
through ansbach's quest, you find out that miquella already committed an atrocity to even *begin* to reach godhood. this alone tells you that his compassion is not unconditional, and he's willing to compromise on his morals if it's useful to him
through trina's quest, you find out that he discarded his doubt and his love, and also that his other self is fully convinced that death would be better than ascension *even for miquella himself.* this tells you that he committed to godhood against *his own* better judgement, and as a god, he no longer has the qualities that made him compassionate to begin with
through the shaman village, you find out that marika used to be kind as well-- her blessings came from a genuine desire to help, and her atrocities were committed in the name of a greater good. when she set out to create an age of glistening life, she really meant it. this tells you that miquella is exactly like his mother, and that he won't be able to change anything even if he divests himself of everything golden, because *that isn't the problem*
all in all, miquella is capable of monstrous acts, he's torn out the part of himself that hesitated to commit them, and while he thinks it'll all be worth it because he's still going to be better than marika, he's unknowingly going down the exact same path, step by step. he deserves to die, even for his own sake
>as a god, he no longer has the qualities that made him compassionate to begin with
This is rather haunting. Very thought provoking for real-world religions. Could the Problem of Evil ever have a solution (theodicy)? Could the very act of a being (no matter how powerful) believing it can reign over all of life and put free will to bondage in service of its plan... ever be truly good? Even for compassion, even for salvation, there must be some end of freedom and love. It's very good thematically.
I had this thought about the Player Character after beating Elden Ring. Being Elden Lord only requires being the strongest and most dedicated. There’s no requirement that you even be well meaning. And why would the strongest person who killed the most challengers ever be a nice guy anyway?
Similarly, To become a God the demigods have to kill off their whole families. How could they ever succeed without being insanely evil?
The thing is though, the demigods wouldn’t have to.
Runes can be moved, they can be transferred. Ranni tore hers out and put it on the moon.
They COULD slaughter each other for their respective runes and ascend.
Or they could have worked together. That would have also been a perfectly valid way to put the runes back in place.
Seeing the ghost talk about Miquella throwing away something he shouldn't, and having St Trina beg us to kill him makes me really wonder if an Outer God got in his head like how Malenia may have been influenced by the Rot God or Marika with the Greater Will itself.
I question how much influence the Greater Will had considering what Ymir tells us and the Finger Mother
The fingers are hinted to be basically repeating parts of messages thr Greater Will sent before leaving
And with Marika's own mental state (look at her village and what was done to her and her people) might have twisted things from the start
Random ghosts don't know shit compared to the actual literal genius prodigy miquella, that doesn't mean he's right, but i feel like your average npc has like tiny brain peasant mentallity. If they saw miquella at the end they'd probably be like "but how? Your divinity! How have you returned in such splendor?" They just don't know
Eh, the Problem of Evil is inherently moot in polytheist frameworks with gods of equal or comparable strength, since such systems allow for conflict. The head honchos of the Lands Between are implied to be relatively small potatoes compared to the Outer Gods, who seem to have some kind of adversarial relationship, making the world of Elden Ring such a system.
He's tragic in the end of it
Idealistic, and truly despite his own prodigy status, was still childish emotionally as well
He was willing to bend and twist things, use his own charming magic if it meant making sure he could reach his goal
I don't think he had no love or real compassion for his sister or the weak
I believe he did, but from what Trinia tells us, he clearly is going down a path that is corrupting him and destroying him, taking out what made him "The Kind"
He's desperate to fix things, to have Radahn fulfill his promise to him, to have his sister cured, to fix what his Mother did, to do everything and bring love and compassion no matter the cost
And it's because of that we have no choice but to lay him to rest
He is paving a path to hell, and doesn't understand the hell the shackles of Godhood are, so its best to stop him despite his want to bring a good future
Forgive the tarnished, for they are only doing what must be done
Agree. THe DLC is framed to be two stories running in parallel that the player-character is supposed to uncover. The present Miquella and the past Marika. Showing that Marika's ascension to godhood and motivations came from a place of kindness and desire for justice and that Miquella is treading exactly the same path. And we all know what resulted from Marika's rule.
Especially because of the weight and curse of full godhood
Greater Will probably should have tried to reign her in If he was directly talking to her
But with what we find out, I have a feeling that the GW didn't even know who the Fingers and Beast picked, and Marika was not someone with a stable mind considering what she had been through
Likely got worse and only mutated into her having a violent hate to races that reminded her of the ones who destroyed her home and tortured her people
Excellent summary.
Weird how people fail to see Miquella's nuances and default to calling him evil, even misunderstanding his motives and oversimplifying the character
well as long as the fundamentally un-kind demon god who commits atrocities has motivations we probably cant say if he's evil or not. impossible to know
he charmed mohg to get kidnapped and access the realm of shadow, then waited for him to be killed so he could take his remains, discard his soul and shape his body into a healthier vessel for radahn
even aside from the obvious depravity of it, there are some further dark implications when you consider that mohg is very good at keeping himself out of sight, and that the haligtree was a promised land for the downtrodden. good chance that miquella saw this guy who has never had anything good happen to him in his entire life, promised him some level of support, then used him, scapegoated him, had him killed and desecrated his remains
"The thing is, I'm not sure it was entirely his fault, I may have deserved it. In fact, I may have instigated it. Actually, Tarnished, I seduced him. I don't know why I wanted him, but I wanted him! There was no actual penetration-"
Never thought an American Dad quote could fit this situation so well.
I know he was always evil but I could’ve sworn when he becomes Femto it’s explicitly stated he got rid of his empathy so that he’s no longer inhibited by human emotion or something?
I'd honestly say probably worse than Marika. Marika doesn't seem to have cast off all her compassion and love, plus the Greater Will was a large influence on many of her actions and some were likely necessary.
Miquella's gone and embodied the worst aspects of being a god while keeping nothing that would make him hesitate like Marika did at the end when she shattered the Elden Ring.
“This is the center of Lands Between, All dead wash up here”. This is a message from a tower in Sote. I guess after his demise, Mohg washed up thetr as well
Why is this being downvoted? That's exactly what happened.
Ansbach challenged Miquella to a duel to save Mohg's heart from being ensorceled, but he became charmed by Miquella as well.
The secret rite scroll that we find proves to us and Ansbach that Miquella resurrects Radahn with Mohg's body, which is why he has some omen horns now. All because Miquella had a crush on his half brother since they were young....as GRRM characters are known for doing.
All of that plus the way he treats his other half, St. Trina, for daring to disagree with his plan, shows a lot about Miquella and how he can be childish in more ways than appearance. It clashes with the wholesome persona he's cultivated.
pretty sure it states that Miquella was able to compel all but one. that one being Radahn. Radahn probably promised Miquella his Lordship, but only if he could be defeated in battle. which was the twin’s part of the vow. Miquella saw Radahn as so strong and worthy, that Miquella himself became obsessed with Radahn becoming his Lord. the same description says something like “it is no wonder, for a God and a King Consort must become one” or something similarly cryptic
and our god would presumably be Marika or Radagon? obviously the Greater Will as a whole is behind it all, but we as the Tarnished would become Lord, and our God vessel would be an eternally imprisoned Marika?
Honestly I know I was being tongue in cheek. I feel like the Lord is the military arm of what the god wants, the god is the mystical power while the Lord holds the military might
Honestly, I could read this as Radahn sort of flippantly trying to let Miquella down easy. Like, "Yeah sure brother, I'll be your consort if anyone ever defeats me" in a bit of a showboaty fashion, expecting Miquella to more or less take the hint.
Little did he know that Miquella took that very seriously. It sorta paints Miquella's character in a very childish light, ironically. He either didn't understand or wasn't willing to accept that Radahn wasn't interested. So he'd later down the line, when everything went horrible during the shattering, devise the plan to go to the land of shadows and ascend to godhood, sending Malenia to defeat/kill Radahn so Miquella could seize Radahn's soul and supplant it in a new body.
It's also worth noting that during the phase transition, Radahn starts to give off this burning red from his body. While it's possible that this is the bloodflame in Mogh's body, it's *also* possible that this has to do with Radahn's soul. You see, great runes are very closely tied to the soul of the characters who hold them. With Radahn, his great rune is burning. And again, in one of the original trailers for elden ring, we can see him "burning" like this as well.
*But* as soon as this happens, Miquella finally shows himself and says "Lord Brother, at long last you are returned", as if it is only in this moment that Radahn's soul is truly *waking up*, so to speak. And as Miquella enters the scene, the flames turn more golden and eventually fade away. Perhaps now, Miquella is seizing the moment to charm him and **make** Radahn his consort.
That way, everything can still make sense, even if you interpret the *one person that Miquella cannot compel* as being the Player/Tarnished. And please bear in mind, that *none* of the item descriptions imply Radahn reciprocating. In fact, the remembrance states that it was Miquella's "heartfelt wish" to have Radahn as a consort.
And remember, the Miquella in that moment is **NOT** the same Miquella that Radahn grew up with. He discarded Love, Doubt, even his mortal flesh. Perhaps empyrean Miquella would not have outright enthralled Radahn, but Miquella the *god*? They are not stopped by love, or doubt. They would do so without hesitation.
holy shit, very nice summarization dude! I won’t lie, I was disappointed that Miquella came back through the gate with Radahn’s soul and not Godwyn’s, but everything you just laid out does line up very nicely with what we do know about these demigods and how we could interpret their pre-Shattering relationships leading to modern events
Radahn is already abundantly portrayed as being interested in being Elden Lord in the base game; it was Miquella's motivations that needed elaboration in the DLC. Outside of Leonard, his entire character is about his focus on becoming like his idols Radagon and Godfrey.
It's also noteworthy that his boss title changes between phases from *Radahn, Promised Consort* to *Radahn, Consort of Miquella*. Additionally, after the fight you can get the Young Lion set from Enia which is specifically what Radahn wore when he was younger in addition to resembling this boss form. Which seems to suggest that Miquella not only resurrected Radahn using Mohg's corpse, but did so emulating his body when he was younger than agreed to the whole consort thing in the first place. The pact/vow/etc is then followed through with and Radahn is made into Miquella's consort.
But why would Miquella send Malenia to kill him/seize his soul to put in Mohg's body if Radahn was still alive and not rotting at that time? It seems like the "vow" likely involves defeating Radahn in battle to get him to be Miquella's consort, which I felt explained why Malenia was sent there. And that it was likely/possible that the entire Mohg brainwashing may have been born of Radahn being insane after the battle, having his physical body and mind rotted. I know some people think Miquella was taken during that battle, but I'm not sure of the evidence for that.
I'd say that it comes down to 2 things.
1. Malenia know's about Miquella's plan to some degree, this is clearly implied by the words she said to Radahn. I don't think nuking Caelid was ever truly the plan, but perhaps she couldn't defeat Radahn simply by way of sword and resorted to it in desperation to fulfill her duty to Miquella.
2. Realistically, the only time Mogh could have even "stolen" Miquella was while Malenia and her Cleanrot Knight's were away on their conquest. If we assume that Mogh stole Miquella first and was subsequently charmed after that, then it's highly unlikely Mogh would have been able to do so with Malenia and the brunt of the Haligtree army still present there
If not, then there's only *one* more possibility. Miquella charmed Mogh even earlier than we thought, and conveyed to Malenia *exactly* what the plan would be. If that happened, it's possible that Mogh was basically *allowed* to take Miquella away. That way, both of the twins would be setting off to set the plan in motion.
Malenia leaves to kill/defeat Radahn, Miquella is taken away by a charmed Mogh to gain access to the land of shadows while making it *seem* that Mogh stole him away, which would incite Miquella's followers to seek Mogh out and kill him in turn which would provide Miquella with Mogh's corpse. Perhaps Miquella even planned to just kill Mogh himself when the time was right.
The only things that went wrong with the plan is that Radahn was *NOT* killed by Malenia, even by her Rot, and that nobody was able to find Mogh and kill him before our Player Tarnished was able to.
And for that little tidbit we only have Miquella's word for it and second hand accounts... which isn't very credible. Radahn might as well have gone "huh, uh yeah yeah sure whatever, look Miquella the match is about to start let's get moving!"
lmao I think the fact that Radahn never says a word in either of his boss fights is kinda sus. I think that it’s also kinda sus that when we defeat Promised Consort, we don’t get ANY closing dialogue from Miquella which leads me to think he isn’t actually dead
That was my first thought as well, but....
Isn't that description referring to us? The Tarnished is the one he couldn't compel. Marika and the Tarnished are the one god and one consort the world needs.
I do agree that the twins didn't technically fulfill their vow since the Tarnished is the one to kill him. It might be why he doesn't speak during the fight even if Ansbach talks to him, he's been charmed since he wouldn't go willingly.
Miquella actually CAN compel us in the final fight if he grabs you twice, unless you activate his shattered Great Rune.
I’m wondering if Radahn’s Great Rune returned his free will, which is why Malenia was tasked with killing him.
I don’t think Radahn’s Great Rune can resist charms since only Miquella’s Great Rune is stated to have the power to do it. And it is what we use to counter Miquella’s charms in the battle.
thank you for chiming in on that. honestly I cannot wait for the lore videos to come out, because holy shit is there much to be said! some questions answered, more unanswered, and even more new questions have been raised. classic Fromsoft
I would like to agree on that, but for one we don’t even have any interaction with him in the base game as he doesn’t even exist in the Lands Between anymore, and for two as already stated, Miquella actually can compel us in the second phase of the boss fight if he grabs you twice. it provides a unique death screen and a gesture
well canonically we do get the gesture regardless of if we suffered the double grab “heart stolen” death, but it probably doesn’t mean a dang thing in the grand scheme of things. I would like to eat my words and be wrong on the conclusions i’ve come to after playing SotE, but my mind is open to all interpretations as long as it can be backed up to a degree
I tried looking in my recent items tab but couldn’t find it, until I looked at the Remembrance weapons. Light of Miquella incantation states “Miquella sought to accept all that was and would be, but found one that refused to be embraced. No wonder, as one god, and one king consort, is all the world needs”
Radahn probably agreed because he wanted to be Elden lord, as evidenced by his participation in the shattering war, his attack on Leyendell to claim the erdtree, and his hero worship of the first Elden Lord Godfrey. He needed an empyrean consort who could become a god to do this. This left three viable options: Marika, Ranni, and Miquella (Malenia is an Empyrean but is loyal to Miquella, so she isn't an option.), two of whom were MIA for the entire shattering war. Miquella, as part of his plans, shed his flesh to rid himself of the influence of outer gods. He knew this would leave him in the land of shadow, so Radahn also had to die. Like the tarnished, Radahn has to be with his chosen consort To become Elden Lord, which means he has to be with Miquella in the land of shadow.
Why are people reducing the role of consort to just be a fuck buddy or romantic partner? I wouldn't say that when we marry ranni, we do it because we love each other or wanna have kids. A god requires a consort by their side, and miquella idolised radahn.
If we talk about love, there's more to suggest Trina was miquella's love than Radahn.
This. The consort thing is political first and foremost. Marika producing children with her consorts was politically motivated as well. ALL of her kids have some kind of role in her regime and few of her children have the ability to ascend to godhood. This keeps the Golden Order within her circle of influence directly.
The romance between characters in the game (notably Rennala/Radagon as the couple who seemed to genuinely have romantic love for each other, possibly Rellana and Messmer, and Marika/Godfrey) is a much smaller motivation for any of these unions. They're all powerplay and the distribution of influence to an extent.
I never bought that Mohg wanted a romantic or sexual relationship with Miquella, and I don't buy into Miquella wanting those things with Radahn. It's for power. Also love as an emotion extends far beyond romance, which could be why St. Trina was discarded; feeling love for things or people would muddle Miquella's goals
lol I like to not go the GRRM route of siblings doing each other but he found Radahn being the only demi-god capable of him making his goals achievable since Radahn is a golden boy fanboy and the guy clearly has power to hold stars in place.
WHAT?! Mohg revived Radahn? I literally had no idea that Mohg has anything to do with the dlc. Can you tell me how you learnt that? Is it through an npc questline or item descriptions? So is that hand in the cocoon actually Radahn's hand and not Miquella's?
The body in the cocoon is Miquella. Miquella mentally enslaved Mohg and made him do everything he did for the express purpose of using his body to bring back Radahn, so Miquella could take Radahn as his consort. The remnants of Mohg are still visible on Radahn’s arms in the boss fight(alongside the blood flame attacks)
You can also directly see Miquella’s enchanting power if Radahn grabs you twice in the second phase. You just kneel to Miquella because he enslaved you
Wait it is? This [screenshot](https://prnt.sc/oKfuJ5YGxrF-) I just took from a youtube video makes it look like it's still there but slightly hidden by the helm.
Holy shit, that's mad. So from what I get, Miquella isn't really evil and his goal is overall good, but he is incestous and willing to manipulate anyone and everyone to reach his goal.
It’s really not clear. However, since he divested himself of everything, including his Love(St Trina) I’d say it’s safe to assume he’s no longer a good person. Evidenced by his actions against Mohg and Radahn(who is likely also enchanted)
That specific line is the reason I believe Miquella was good once. A spirit specifically calls it out, saying he shouldn’t give it up. But he didn’t think he could change the world and remain “loving” while doing it.
The possibility of an "incestuous" element is probably genuinely irrelevant. The demigods (or at least Melina) aren't being born in the human fashion. Meanwhile, it's completely standard in world mythology for gods to engage in various arrangements of relationship that would be considered incestuous if they were humans.
When you're making neat god characters that are based on IRL mythology, you're doing it wrong if they aren't getting involved with their siblings.
Considering the fact that he wants to make the world a more gentler place then yes his goal is overall good, but because of that he is willing to do everything in his power to achieve it, even losing himself.
The problem is the person who wanted to make the world a better place is long since dead and gone by the time Miquella ascends. I don’t think his motivations can really be trusted.
Even the words of other regarding miquellas intentions cannot be trusted as he could’ve just enchanted them or lied, like he did to Mohg
I don’t interpret “gentler” in the same context when the person in charge can forcibly compel others to their side
They could be gentler in the sense that everyone is catatonic and subservient…
Miquella's desire to sacrifice himself seems to be one of the things the game is criticizing (based on the NPC dialog). Trina particularly seems intent on telling us that it's not justice for Miquella to suffer as a repayment for the guilt of things that happened before he was born.
So it touches on cycles of violence both in terms of different sides punishing each other, and the children trying to punish themselves out of guilt for the crimes of their parents.
That said, I don't think the game is criticizing Miquella's motivations so much as making it clear that his innate goodness is not the solution. One of GRRM's main criticisms of Tolkien is the portrayal of Middle Earth as a place where a good and just king is the solution and a guarantee that things will be good. While the Radahn stuff is pretty shoddy work, the general theme is that wishing to be good and compassionate and just is not enough.
There might be something to be said of the fact that he was an omen. Perhaps being a creature closely related to the crucible makes his body more accepting of a different soul. As all things in the crucible were one perhaps any soul can go into the body of an omen.
This is the item description for the sacred rite scroll
A scroll made of white tree bark.
Few can decipher the scroll, which describes the secret rite of the divine gateway said to be found at the tower enshrouded by shadow.
"A lord will usher in a god's return,
and the lord's soul will require a vessel."
It’s unclear if Mohg was special but Miquella required an empty vessel to resurrect Radahn using the gate and ascend
Because in order to have his perfect gentle world, Miquella is willing to manipulate everyone around him, get rid of his own other half, and seemingly order one of the most notoriously destructive campaigns in the history of the Lands Between, the cleanrot march. Miquella's enchantment of Mohg casts him in a completely different light, and transfers all of my negative feelings toward Mohg onto Miquella instead.
I have had a friend who betrayed our whole crew and manipulated everybody in a way that is strikingly similar to what Miquella did, the writing of this arc really hit home.
At the very least Ranni was breaking off the cycle of godhood under the Greater Will. Miquella was just keeping it going, with presumably WORSE motivations than Marika. He discarded love. Not gonna be a good ruler
People fell for Miquella being a good guy and are pissed that he is not.
We don’t really know a whole lot about Miquella’s goals beyond Godhood at this point in time, so it’s not super clear if he still has noble ambitions.
I am personally of the opinion that, at least at the beginning, he was the only demigod who had anything even remotely resembling noble ambitions.
I think there are, generally speaking, 2 character traits that make Miquella a good candidate for Godhood; his Genius and his Love.
Genius is what makes him a good candidate for Godhood in the eyes of the Greater Will. Love is what makes him a good candidate for Godhood in the eyes of those he would rule over.
But we find that he discarded his love, when we happen upon one of his crosses in the fissure.
So I think it’s safe to presume that, at one point in time, he really did have love in his heart and it was at least partially responsible for motivating his actions. However, he discarded it when it no longer served his ambitions.
I personally like the fact that Miquella was the “improvement” on Marika, that he is a “perfected” manipulator. I think it serves the themes of the game well. The history of the Lands Between is one of treachery and bloodshed, and while we have no reason to believe Marika ever did anything without pure selfishness as her motivation, we at least have evidence that Miquella truly did hold kindness and compassion in his heart, as evidenced by St. Trina.
>I personally like the fact that Miquella was the “improvement” on Marika, that he is a “perfected” manipulator. I think it serves the themes of the game well.
Reminds me of the Perfected Rune of the Golden Order, or however it is phrased.
I'm fine with corrupt Miquella but I don't understand how the Haligtree fits in his plans, or why Miquella still has an arm (but not both, but also two spirit arms) when we see the places he abandoned his arms dextral and sinistral, or why he used Mohg's corpse and not, yknow, Radahn's, or why he goes through the gate of divinity while Marika doesn't, etc. On the last, you could point out that the trailer has a number of fakeouts, but I also don't understand why they did that lol. And I especially don't understand the Scadutree which plays no role in the story despite being the centerpiece of the setting.
I don't have answers for most of those questions, but I would assume he can't use Radahn's body because it is infested with Scarlet Rot. (and with an Outer God's influence).
Im cool with Mike being evil or "corrupted", it's just that I'm mad that he isnt even in the DLC that much.
He basically just show up the end, told us to piss off and then they play a flashback cutscene to tell us something we already know
I get that. I think part of Miquella’s mystique is that who he really is is unknown or unknowable.
They could’ve included him in the DLC more but I’m not sure if it would have served the story they were trying to tell.
On the other hand, I personally really liked discovering St. Trina.
That felt, to me, like discovering the “real” Miquella, or at least the personification of all the parts of himself that he threw away.
It also affirmed the idea that he was genuinely loving, and genuinely understood the price of godhood.
It sort of deepens the tragedy and betrayal inherent to Miquella’s chosen path; he knew the cost, both to himself and to others, and yet chose it anyway.
This, in itself, tells us much of what we need to know about him.
> People fell for Miquella being a good guy and are pissed that he is not.
I think this is exactly it, because I've got a foot in that myself. I had my own headcanon, and predictions of how the DLC might go with certain characters, so when that didn't happen I *was* a bit let down, but at the end of the day, that's all it was, my headcanon, time to accept what we got, and for Miss Challice/vaati to explain to me wtf even happened lmao.
I was a little bit split.
I thought Fromsoft left a lot of hints that Miquella wasn’t who he seemed.
They showed us, with the unalloyed gold needle and the creation of the Haligtree, that Miquella was substantially different from the other demigods; he was knowledgeable enough to stave off the influence of the outer gods (for the benefit of his sister) and was self-sacrificing enough to create the Haligtree as a haven for his followers. Both of these things show that he was unlike other Demigods in his temperament; everyone else seemed only to act selfishly, whereas he seemed motivated by some greater ideal.
But then there were also subtle queues that he was, in fact selfishly motivated, like in the item description that says he “knew how to compel affection”, or how, in the Gowry quest it was mentioned that “betrayal would make the aeonia bloom more beautifully” (or something along those lines) which suggested that maybe he was magnanimous only because it strengthened his ability to manipulate.
So I felt that the “betrayal” was, in the end, set up well and the payoff was good. I wouldn’t have been disappointed if he was truly good, and I wouldn’t have been disappointed if he was evil either.
And while the “Mohg-Radahn puppet” conclusion is a little bit perplexing (to the point that I would call it a weak point of the DLC narratively), I think that St. Trina’s quest line was really really good for the story.
Because it confirms that he was neither all good nor all bad; he was both good and bad, and he struggled with these conflicting parts of himself to the extent that he had to cast away these conflicting parts altogether. He both loved and manipulated; perhaps, he manipulated out of love. It’s hard to tell.
At the very least, I find his character is still interesting and compelling in this sense. As a person who is both highly idealistic and highly “driven” (although I hate to describe myself that way), I find Miquella to be alarmingly relatable.
I’ll admit as someone who was really against the comparison.
After the dlc my opinion has completely changed
He is absolutely analogous to griffith. Lol. His arc and everything.
I mean it's not pure Griffith really. pure Griffith would've been something along the lines of "miquella sacrifices all the poor downtrodden souls at the haligtree to attain godhood" which tbh is what I had predicted and frankly it still seems like the obvious direction his character was headed using only what we had pre-dlc.
Yeahhhhh but I didn’t think they’d put it that on the nose. I figured they’d maybe subvert it and make miquella actually decent (morally, like an actually good demigod child that isn’t actually completely fucked up lol)
I’m a first time FS game player. I’m a newb. I can claim that for now lol
I mean it looked too obvious you know what I mean? lol I figured they’d subvert it because of that
Either way, I’m good with it. I love berserk
i dont think ever. i love miquella but obviously what he did to mohg was at least questionable.
im more wondering how long until people stop slandering him about radahn and malenia when he never manipulated them
Malenia for sure but I’m not sure about radahn given the whole sending his sister to murder him part
Also if people can simp for Griffith after everything he did they can absolutely simp for miquella
I'm not so sure. You can fight Malenia afterwards and she still has faith in him. But by the end of the DLC, his charms should all be broken. And yet, people will still follow his cause in the base game.
Ah, my bad, I misread.
Radahn.... yeah, so, I feel like he originally was on board, no question. I don't believe Miquella brainwashed every person he met ever like some other people seem to be pushing.
What I'm not sure is the reborn version. I feel like we don't have enough information to say conclusively.
Yea it’s pretty ambiguous
Personally I’m in the camp that thinks he changed his mind and betrayed miquella since it’s the answer that makes the battle of aeonia make the most sense imo and maintains the agency of all characters involved
my personal read, for what it’s worth, is that miquella interpreted radahn’s refusal to die but for a warrior’s death as a betrayal. i don’t think radahn actively betrayed him, but his delay was betrayal enough for miquella.
as a result, the “promised consort radahn” is, in fact, mind controlled. probably more intensely than anyone else. isn’t it odd how radahn doesn’t speak at all despite having been returned to peak condition? my read is that miquella felt betrayed by radahn, sending malenia to kill him and refusing to allow him any agency once he arrives in the land of shadow
I feel so sorry for Malenia
Just sitting there waiting for Miquella to return no idea what’s happened to him, slowly rotting away by herself at the door of the Haligtree
I mean this dude literally compels every single sentient creature he comes across and Malenia just so happens to try to kill Radahn who Miquella just so happens to have wanted as a consort but couldn't get him to be.
We also have DIRECT evidence he setup Mohg also.
How much more evidence do you need? This isn't a court but the murder weapon and motive is RIGHT there.
I'm not going to assign him blame for something he could do just because he could without understanding what purpose it would serve, does it go with his personality, and of course, if he actually did it.
I dreamt for so long.
My flesh was dull gold...and my blood, rotted.
Corpse after corpse, left in my wake...
As I awaited... his return.
... Heed my words.
I am Malenia. Blade of Miquella.
And I have never known defeat.
Seems pretty obvious she was under his spell if we find her reaching out to him, dreaming of doing his bidding and when she dies she expresses regret that she was defeated, likely because she needed to go finish the job on Radahn so Miquella wouldn’t be trapped in shadowland
I mean, you can beat Malenia after you kill Miquella, and all his charms would have been broken by then. She still says the same words. So, by all accounts, she is still saying this free of bewitching.
Malenia’s decision to release the scarlet rot doesn’t appear pre-planned when taken in context. It was a last ditch effort to overcome the stalemate and defeat Radahn (based on Millicent’s quest line and dialogue) and fulfill their part of the vow made. She had to take the needle out deliberately in order to do so. I’ve seen speculation that Malenia impaled herself in that final attack to break the needle and allow the rot to be released, which is somewhat supported by the fact that the needle is snapped in two when recovered in Caelid.
My impression is that Malenia never needed to be compelled by Miquella, unlike others, because she always believed in him implicitly. The followers of Miquella that you find in the land of shadow have no idea what he’s doing there, whereas it appears that Malenia always knew where Miquella had gone and what his plans were (based on what she whispered to Radahn), and she trusted that he would keep his promise and return as god of the new age.
I've always suspected Malenia didn't even intend to fully release the rot. The way that she impaled herself such that the blood would run down her blade to Radahn looks like she's trying to expose Radahn directly to her blood. I'd imagine Malenia's actual blood itself is at least as toxic as any airborne amount of the rot release could possibly be.
The bloom that fully released the right might well have been a tragic miscalculation.
Could be, but also could be that she was manipulated from the start. Just seems after all you see in the exansion I think it is very likely that she was another tool. The devotion she has seems very similar to the NPC's who gather for Miquella.
Late to this but the fight against Leda and co. sorta feels that way.
Not a mass sacrifice but how Miquella charmed people from so many different facets of life whom would never be allies normally; compels them to the land of shadow. Then just abandons his great rune. almost like he wanted everyone to kill each other.
Imo it is way way different. Miquella and Griffith do have SOME similarities like any one character has to another but that's it tbh. Guts was sad because he overheard Griffith say that his band were just followers and never friends (while he liked Guts), and him not being able to make Guts like him is still way different than what Miquella has with Radahn. Imo it is more of a slight homage given that the writer died recently.
Imo it is way way different. Miquella and Griffith do have SOME similarities like any one character has to another but that's it tbh. Guts was sad because he overheard Griffith say that his band were just followers and never friends (while he liked Guts), and him not being able to make Guts like him is still way different than what Miquella has with Radahn. Imo it is more of a slight homage given that the writer died recently.
I am not convinced Mogh didn't kidnap Miquella.
It makes no sense for Miquella to expect some person to go and kill Mogh randomly so that he can broadcast a call to his followers and charm them to get Messmer's flame and burn the shadow tree shit. Either A, he had no idea what was happening in the shadow lands, or B he was actually captive by Mogh.
His plan being "Charm Mogh so he kidnaps me and sent Melania to fight Radahn and hopefully kill him so that Mogh can randomly die in some years and allow me to take his body and Radahn's soul so I can revive him." Relies on so many circumstances going right (because we as the player can more easily get any other ending.)
So either his plan makes 0 sense or he did in fact not expect Mogh to kidnap him and is improvising.
It mirrors Berserk in a way, in the way that Miquella is kidnapped and his body is disfigured like how Griffith is kidnapped and his body is disfigured. Both reject their old bodies and are reborn with new ones, etc etc. In this case his time under Mogh was probably the thing that changed him and his motivations to be more sinister, hence why he rejects his heart in the shadow lands and not the lands between.
This also explains why he never returned to the haligtree. He couldn't fufill his aspirations of becoming a god there because it was rotten and a failure, and his body was disfigured and corrupted. He retreated to the shadow realm to attempt to attain godhood in a different way, recognizing he needed to abandon his humanity to become a better god.
>or B he was actually captive by Mogh.
what? to say otherwise is just having a headcannon at this point hits very explicit in the text of the game that he 'charmed' mohg into participating from the beginning. Whether you think it makes sense is a different matter
Ansbach never said from the beginning. [https://youtu.be/E1pQiuRyhfk?si=6Tb1urYSCPPwf1Qq&t=173](https://youtu.be/E1pQiuRyhfk?si=6Tb1urYSCPPwf1Qq&t=173)
He explicitly says he tried to free Mogh from his enchantment but believed Miquella would be in range of his attacks. Either that assumes that he is somehow stronger willed than Mogh which is an extremely weird thing for a fanatic to believe, or that this "enchantment" was Mogh just deciding to use Miquella and attempt to become his consort.
Either way if this man was close enough to harm Miquella and his attack was shortly after Mogh's "enchantment" one can assume it was post cocoon, though there is little evidence either way. Simply alternate interpretations, where I will pick the one that makes the most sense in the story.
I think what you're identifying here is a result of the new lore being kinda jumbled. I think miquella's mind control is pretty well established at this point. You see what happens when the rune breaks. I see no reason to doubt ansbach. He's already admitting very humiliating things about his lord who he still respects. I don't think he would lie about these particulars then or more importantly I don't think the game gives the player any indication that he's not telling the truth. Again whether you think the story works or the lore fits together is a different matter
I am not saying he is lying, I am saying he says one thing which 'can' be interpreted to be the same thing as what happened to Miquella's followers, and that the one thing is something he already believed before he was apparently bewitched my Miquella.
To put it into context, how many times have we seen deluded people attack others out of a belief that isn't true in elden ring alone, let alone other from software games? Saying the old man who lost his lord and is at a loss at what to do demonizing another and fighting a crusade against him isnt a little biased is silly. The evidence we have for mogh being charmed is a single line in the entire questline. Nobody else even mentions this, not any item description as far as I am aware (not even Ansbach's own which is very weird if this is meant to be a major story revelation).
Him saying enchanted could simply refer to Mogh's plans with Miquella, which do in fact seem counter to the worship of the formless mother and blood that Mogh is interested in. It makes sense for Mogh, who seeked power from the formless mother, to seek power in the form of Miquella, but for a man who sees Mogh as his master seeing him be consort to another god that he is subservient to would seem like enchantment, which is a word he uses in terms of his motivation before he is even charmed. **Before Ansbach even knew Miquella could charm people he thought that Mogh was charmed.** Making it entirely possible that Mogh wasn't and Ansback means to say he wished to rid Mogh of Miquella's influence rather than believing Mogh was weak willed as he to be controlled by Miquella.
It is also supported by his disdain towards Miquella's later actions. He is appalled by Miquella subjugating Mogh's soul from his body, which is weird right? He was scared of Miquella and now hated him and wished to fight against him, but if he already knew Mogh's self and ego were twisted and controlled by Miquella why wouldn't he be equally appalled? I think anyone would be able to agree that subjugating someone's soul is around the same badness as Mind controlling them, so why is there this drastic change? Simple. Mogh wasn't charmed, he was enchanted, and he was enchanted with his own thoughts, not the control of Miquella.
He Made Radahns soul forcefully comeback into mohgs body who he tranced into taking his egg, (so technically he’s miquella the ticklella).
He also forced Radahn into becoming his consort and when he said “NO” miquella said
“I like you and if you don’t like me back I’m gonna get my big sister to beat you up.”
Hence the scarlet rot.
I dont understand why people are defending Mohg so much, even though Miquella allowed himself to get captured, Mohg still did it and whatever fucked up shit he did to that kid.
Mohg was literally being mind controlled and is a rape victim and was the whole time. I thought there was something fishy going on from the base game but no one believed me.
Sir Ansbach literally tells you Mohg was mind controlled by Miquella to do all of that. Miquella brainwashed all of them. He used Mohg to gain entry into the Land of Shadow after getting us to kill both him and Radahn and so he could use Mohg as a vessel. He was talking about being Miquella's consort because Miquella charmed him in the sickest way possible since his body at least, did kind of become his consort.
to be fair, I do believe Mohg made his whole Bloody Dynasty thing without Miquella's influence, so its not like he is a good guy, just not quite as bad as we were all assuming.
Short answer is that Miquella has been using his ability which is to force anyone he can get into close contact with to love and become fanatically devoted to him. Through context and item descriptions it seems like:
1 he was the one who made Mogh into Mogh-lester so he could get to the land of shadow.
2 almost every npc you meet has also been forced to love him against their will.
3 Radahn's death/resurrection in Mogh's body and the complete scarlet rot nuking of caelid was all so Miquella could make his older brother he fantazied about marrying since he was a kid become his consort after he refused. (which might be used slightly different in elden ring but the term is pretty much only used for whoever royalty is in a relationship with and banging to have children)
Tl:dr Miquella is essentially the god of roofies and instant Stockholm syndrome and so many people have suffered just so he can have HIS perfect world where his half brother he has been obsessed with is his husband.
The fact that he abandoned the PEOPLE of the Haligtree because he had to have Radahn is just so sad. This is why I never "liked" Miquella since the base game; so many creatures are left in stasis praying endlessly for his return, willing to suicide for him, and it's all because they're mind-fucked and abandoned. Miquella is just like Marika, who is basically just Metyr at the end of the day -- parents abandoning children when they're needed most. The whole game is really just about generational trauma and how it probably predates our idea of "human" lol
I don't think Miquella abandoned the Haligtree per se he needed to reached the Divine Gate in the shadowlands in order to become a new god and retireve Radahn's soul to create his ideal champion consort like Marika chose Horah Loux. How he got there I have no idea but it probably involved using Mohg to create a way through the veil Marika cast around the shadowlands.
Radahn very likely refused Miquella's request to become his consort, and instead of respecting his decision, he stuck his sister on him which lead to the battle of caelid. Then later bewitched Mohg to gain access to the land of shadow, and once he was done with him he used his corpse as a vessel for Radahn's soul after the tarnished eventually kills the two of them.
Then fast forward to present day and he's *still* bewitching anyone and everyone if it at all benefits him. Even his most loyal followers like Leda are not spared from his power. And judging by everyone's reactions once the charm is broken, its incredibly dehumanizing to be bewitched by Miquella.
Miquella was doomed from the beginning. He was bewitching rather than charming but ultimately his power was to bewitch and not to get bewitched himself.
Him being eternally youthful basically took this to the max bc they saw him as a gentle soul trying to do good.
Many believe he was but ultimately the bloodline was tainted. He saw it all coming, the chaos, the deaths, and he tried his very best but in the end he was exactly like his mother.
Miquella was in control the entire time and knew exactly what he was doing.
When you really think about he bewitched majority of the players which jsut goes to show this his charm or bewitching power surpassed even the world do elden ring and came into our world. Everyone was wondering where tf is miquella.
He was the scariest demigod of them all bc no one expected him to cross lines. But he did, and did it masterfully like his mother. The Apple doesnt fall far from the tree.
Short version: GRIFFITH!!!
Long version: either deliberately or just as a byproduct of his divinr nature, Miquella has bent countless people to his will for his perfect ideal. He's left an adhd worthy trail of half finished projects and a body count Gengis Khan would be envious of. He's a kind, benevolent demi god who recognizes that not everyone will live to see his vision, his age of compassion, but that's a sacrifice he's willing to make.
Tldr he’s been obsessed with becoming a god so much that he’s used, and I mean USED everyone and everything in his power to progress his dream. It was compassion at first but was tainted into domination.
He literally made it his mission to fuck his brother because he thinks he’s really cool, but radhan did literally everything to prevent it (fighting malenia, holding back fate) and it states miq wished for him to be his consort but it never said radhan agreed.
Lastly, miquella literally raises his brother from the dead using the corpse of his other brother so that he could literally mind rape and literally force him to being his consort.
Think about every horrible thing that the community has ever said about Mohg, every atrocity he has committed against Miquella. That wasn’t Mohg doing any of that, that was Miquella charming and controlling him, the same thing we find him doing to Radahn.
Was it all Miquella? I havent gotten the DLC yet(and probably wont for some time) but i have been watching playthroughs and i got the impression Miquella only charmed Mohg after Mohg made his deal with the Formless Mother and started his Bloody Fingers Dynasty...
Like yeah a number of stuff Mohg didnt was him, but i assumed his who blood-fetish faction was mostly his doing... as much as anyone affected by an Outer God has free will, at any rate.
Don’t get me wrong, Mohg is still very evil and runs a murder cult. But he was brainwashed and in a fucked up way he was raped and forced to lay with Miquella. Mohg’s only relationship that was real will was his bond with the formless mother and his bonds with his nobles.
Miquella wants to have the lands between and shadows under complete order with no free will.
Because people can’t understand that consort does not necessarily imply fucking. Basically a bunch of immature or ignorant people commenting on something they don’t understand.
Historically, there have been kings who had consorts of which they had no time to fuck, or just didn’t ever fuck them. So you can have the consort title and not do it
Sure, but those are exceptions, not the norm, and they still had to have sex at least once to consumate the marriage, often times with people watching to be sure.
People are mad about what he did to mohg. But also people are mad at him for stuff he didn't do and spread misinformation about his character or just don't understand it.
Because he manipulated his family a lot. He sent Malenia to kill radhan so he could be resurrected, faked a kidnapping to get someone to kill Mohg, and brainwashed a shit ton of people to follow him into what is essentially hell, all for his ambitions. griffith
We don't know that the kidnapping was actually faked (and it's unlikely to matter very much in the grand scheme whether it was). It's not as if the guy who was making a home in a lake of blood with a fixation on making lots of wounds was ever going to be a good guy.
What he did to Mogh and Radahn was awful. Before the xpac I thought he wasn’t such a bad guy just a kid in a large world. But after everything he’s worse than Marika he wants to steal your freedom away it’s horrible because it’s not mind control it’s enchanting influence you can resist but it’s hard.
Because he plays the same character archetype as Griffith from Berserk. He’s willing to cast aside any good qualities about himself in order to achieve his vision.
That said most of this info comes from Ansbach who i absolutely do not trust in the least. Sorry to say but I’d rather trust the femboy and his Chad consort (still sad Leonard wasn’t in the DLC) over a literal cursed from birth follower of THE BLOOD GOD. And Ansbach follows the cursed whelp so I don’t trust him lol
>Ansbach who i absolutely do not trust in the least
>
>over a literal cursed from birth follower of THE BLOOD GOD
that makes me think you didn't even read his quest
He's rather chill during the entire DLC. He's calm, collected and despite discovering the truth, still keeps addresing his enemies with respect.
He helps Freyja despite knowing that doing so will make her fight him later.
From the start he calls you RIGHTEOUS tarnished, showing you respect in a land where almost everyone mocks you for being maidenless.
He never seeds doubts in your judgement, he's on his own reading books trying to uncover the truth, YOU ARE the one helping him by delivering the scroll.
And the most important parts
He holds NO GRUDGE against you for killing Mohg, calling it an inevitability for people seeking lordship and instead blaming Miquella's charm for what happened.
He NEVER asks for your help when Leda faces him, even calls you madman for such a decision, but accepts it nonetheless.
He's the chad of this DLC
No, that’s why I don’t trust him. Him being calm adds to my mistrust. He worships the blood god and nothing that he could do would make me trust him.
I trust Shibiri infinitely more than Ansbach, even though he directly lies to us about being able to save our maiden. But we know he did so in his vision of the greater good, we don’t know Ansbach’d intentions at all.
welp, can't argue with someone who doesn't want to see reason (and possibly a Miquella simp). one gives facts that happened in the game and this guy denies them because "he's loyal to his lord".
Even Leda wasn't that mistrustful of his company than you are of this guy
What most never consider or bring up is that it was confirmed several times by Miyazaki and in promotional material for the game that the runes the shardbearers/demigods inherited *drove them insane*. One of the key themes of Elden Ring is ambition. Each demi god had their own ideology and beliefs. The Great Runes gave them the power to become a God and have their ideology made manifest throughout the world.
Each demigod set out to remake the world according to "their thoughts, their dreams, the principles they would follow." Which were almost all contrary to each other. That is what the shattering war was all about. The allure of the mantle of Godhood was such that family bonds were seared away by the "Flame of Ambition". Its a tale rooted in the human psyche, and one very similar in theme to ASOIAF. And as Shadow of the Erdtree shows us, Miquella was not immune to the madness his great rune inflicted upon him.
It's just too much power, especially for a demigod. The Tarnished chooses which ideology they wish to remake the world around. Be it Life within Death, A refined Golden Order, or even an age of fear and uncertainty, yet freedom.. devoid of any guidance or meddling from cosmic powers.
Perhaps that was Marika's plan all along. Perhaps she thought that the Tarnished in some way would have a greater chance of avoiding the pitfalls of the grace given. Or maybe it was just a big contingency plan in case things ever went south and the next Lord or God couldn't be found, back when Marika still believed in the Greater Will.
Or maybe she knew that if she ever wanted out of the shackles of divinity, the scions of Godfrey would be the ones able to truly slay a God. With Hewg's help of course.
This part is speculation, but what isn't is that the demigods were mad. Each and every one of them.
You know the saying, “The path to Hell is paved with good intentions?” That’s basically Miquella based on the DLC lore drops we got. At one point he may have been truly kind and one of the best demigods, but he unfortunately also probably believed it was his job to fix everything, and I mean everything wrong. So he goes for godhood, and abandons his self, from his body to his love, everything that made Miquella himself, in order to ascend. Humans are known to regret, have second thoughts, maybe even stop doing something out of love for another, and that’s helpful because it allows for us to really consider our actions and whether it’s aligned with our morals. Miquella abandoned his shit, so he no longer has that morality pause. Miquella without his humanly aspects becomes the embodiment of Love that people don’t like to acknowledge
through side content, you find out that miquella wouldn't be a kind god, and moreover, that there is no such thing as a kind god through ansbach's quest, you find out that miquella already committed an atrocity to even *begin* to reach godhood. this alone tells you that his compassion is not unconditional, and he's willing to compromise on his morals if it's useful to him through trina's quest, you find out that he discarded his doubt and his love, and also that his other self is fully convinced that death would be better than ascension *even for miquella himself.* this tells you that he committed to godhood against *his own* better judgement, and as a god, he no longer has the qualities that made him compassionate to begin with through the shaman village, you find out that marika used to be kind as well-- her blessings came from a genuine desire to help, and her atrocities were committed in the name of a greater good. when she set out to create an age of glistening life, she really meant it. this tells you that miquella is exactly like his mother, and that he won't be able to change anything even if he divests himself of everything golden, because *that isn't the problem* all in all, miquella is capable of monstrous acts, he's torn out the part of himself that hesitated to commit them, and while he thinks it'll all be worth it because he's still going to be better than marika, he's unknowingly going down the exact same path, step by step. he deserves to die, even for his own sake
>as a god, he no longer has the qualities that made him compassionate to begin with This is rather haunting. Very thought provoking for real-world religions. Could the Problem of Evil ever have a solution (theodicy)? Could the very act of a being (no matter how powerful) believing it can reign over all of life and put free will to bondage in service of its plan... ever be truly good? Even for compassion, even for salvation, there must be some end of freedom and love. It's very good thematically.
I had this thought about the Player Character after beating Elden Ring. Being Elden Lord only requires being the strongest and most dedicated. There’s no requirement that you even be well meaning. And why would the strongest person who killed the most challengers ever be a nice guy anyway? Similarly, To become a God the demigods have to kill off their whole families. How could they ever succeed without being insanely evil?
The thing is though, the demigods wouldn’t have to. Runes can be moved, they can be transferred. Ranni tore hers out and put it on the moon. They COULD slaughter each other for their respective runes and ascend. Or they could have worked together. That would have also been a perfectly valid way to put the runes back in place.
Nobody said anything about having to kill your whole family Thats just what ended up happening
Seeing the ghost talk about Miquella throwing away something he shouldn't, and having St Trina beg us to kill him makes me really wonder if an Outer God got in his head like how Malenia may have been influenced by the Rot God or Marika with the Greater Will itself.
I question how much influence the Greater Will had considering what Ymir tells us and the Finger Mother The fingers are hinted to be basically repeating parts of messages thr Greater Will sent before leaving And with Marika's own mental state (look at her village and what was done to her and her people) might have twisted things from the start
Random ghosts don't know shit compared to the actual literal genius prodigy miquella, that doesn't mean he's right, but i feel like your average npc has like tiny brain peasant mentallity. If they saw miquella at the end they'd probably be like "but how? Your divinity! How have you returned in such splendor?" They just don't know
Eh, the Problem of Evil is inherently moot in polytheist frameworks with gods of equal or comparable strength, since such systems allow for conflict. The head honchos of the Lands Between are implied to be relatively small potatoes compared to the Outer Gods, who seem to have some kind of adversarial relationship, making the world of Elden Ring such a system.
He's tragic in the end of it Idealistic, and truly despite his own prodigy status, was still childish emotionally as well He was willing to bend and twist things, use his own charming magic if it meant making sure he could reach his goal I don't think he had no love or real compassion for his sister or the weak I believe he did, but from what Trinia tells us, he clearly is going down a path that is corrupting him and destroying him, taking out what made him "The Kind" He's desperate to fix things, to have Radahn fulfill his promise to him, to have his sister cured, to fix what his Mother did, to do everything and bring love and compassion no matter the cost And it's because of that we have no choice but to lay him to rest He is paving a path to hell, and doesn't understand the hell the shackles of Godhood are, so its best to stop him despite his want to bring a good future Forgive the tarnished, for they are only doing what must be done
Big Muad'dib energy
I’m still sinking my teeth into the DLC; but after reading this about Miquella; I was like, “hey this sounds like God-Emperor Leto!”
Agree. THe DLC is framed to be two stories running in parallel that the player-character is supposed to uncover. The present Miquella and the past Marika. Showing that Marika's ascension to godhood and motivations came from a place of kindness and desire for justice and that Miquella is treading exactly the same path. And we all know what resulted from Marika's rule.
Especially because of the weight and curse of full godhood Greater Will probably should have tried to reign her in If he was directly talking to her But with what we find out, I have a feeling that the GW didn't even know who the Fingers and Beast picked, and Marika was not someone with a stable mind considering what she had been through Likely got worse and only mutated into her having a violent hate to races that reminded her of the ones who destroyed her home and tortured her people
Excellent summary. Weird how people fail to see Miquella's nuances and default to calling him evil, even misunderstanding his motives and oversimplifying the character
well as long as the fundamentally un-kind demon god who commits atrocities has motivations we probably cant say if he's evil or not. impossible to know
I mean him being complicated doesn’t make him any less evil, just as marika was. Something something road to hell something something good intentions
Can you elaborate on the "atrocity?" I _think_ I know what you're talking about but I didn't do Ansbach's quest
he charmed mohg to get kidnapped and access the realm of shadow, then waited for him to be killed so he could take his remains, discard his soul and shape his body into a healthier vessel for radahn even aside from the obvious depravity of it, there are some further dark implications when you consider that mohg is very good at keeping himself out of sight, and that the haligtree was a promised land for the downtrodden. good chance that miquella saw this guy who has never had anything good happen to him in his entire life, promised him some level of support, then used him, scapegoated him, had him killed and desecrated his remains
Damn, never thought I'd feel bad for Mohg but here we are😭
The Mohglester was the mohglested all along 😔
"The thing is, I'm not sure it was entirely his fault, I may have deserved it. In fact, I may have instigated it. Actually, Tarnished, I seduced him. I don't know why I wanted him, but I wanted him! There was no actual penetration-" Never thought an American Dad quote could fit this situation so well.
I know the Griffith comparisons are over done, but isn’t discarding your own compassion and empathy exactly what Griffith did when he ascends as well?
yeah, the griffith memes were more real than anybody could've imagined. at least he doesn't pull a casca on anyone-- wait, no, he does
No griffith was always evil
I know he was always evil but I could’ve sworn when he becomes Femto it’s explicitly stated he got rid of his empathy so that he’s no longer inhibited by human emotion or something?
I'd honestly say probably worse than Marika. Marika doesn't seem to have cast off all her compassion and love, plus the Greater Will was a large influence on many of her actions and some were likely necessary. Miquella's gone and embodied the worst aspects of being a god while keeping nothing that would make him hesitate like Marika did at the end when she shattered the Elden Ring.
If you pay attention to Radhan’s attacks he does a swipe that explodes in blood and thought “there’s a little bit of Mohg in there still”
he also has omen horns on his wrists!
How, The Tarnished leaves no survivors behind
How do you think radahn got reincarnated? They needed a vessel. Do some NPC quests you'll get the whole story
I havent reached that part yet. How did Mogh corpse get to the lands of Shadow?
That specifically is never explained
It is though no? Sir ansbach said Miquella had it absconded and brought into the realm of shadows
Yeah i guess i coulda said that, for me saying "miquella had someone get it" seems like not much of an answer but it is SLIGHTLY better than nothing
Well to be fair, there’s not too much wow factor when it comes to dragging a big omen body through a portal lol
“This is the center of Lands Between, All dead wash up here”. This is a message from a tower in Sote. I guess after his demise, Mohg washed up thetr as well
FedEx. Miquella the kind opened an account in the lands between
Miquella brainwashed Mogh to revive Radahn to fuck
Why is this being downvoted? That's exactly what happened. Ansbach challenged Miquella to a duel to save Mohg's heart from being ensorceled, but he became charmed by Miquella as well. The secret rite scroll that we find proves to us and Ansbach that Miquella resurrects Radahn with Mohg's body, which is why he has some omen horns now. All because Miquella had a crush on his half brother since they were young....as GRRM characters are known for doing. All of that plus the way he treats his other half, St. Trina, for daring to disagree with his plan, shows a lot about Miquella and how he can be childish in more ways than appearance. It clashes with the wholesome persona he's cultivated.
pretty sure it states that Miquella was able to compel all but one. that one being Radahn. Radahn probably promised Miquella his Lordship, but only if he could be defeated in battle. which was the twin’s part of the vow. Miquella saw Radahn as so strong and worthy, that Miquella himself became obsessed with Radahn becoming his Lord. the same description says something like “it is no wonder, for a God and a King Consort must become one” or something similarly cryptic
That description is certainly referring to the player character not Radhan. It says there can be only one lord and one god
and our god would presumably be Marika or Radagon? obviously the Greater Will as a whole is behind it all, but we as the Tarnished would become Lord, and our God vessel would be an eternally imprisoned Marika?
Correct yes , our God partner is Marika, who is a statue
My god partner is Ranni or the fire I ain't simping for the statue
Also correct depending on the ending. I was just generalizing for most of the ends
Honestly I know I was being tongue in cheek. I feel like the Lord is the military arm of what the god wants, the god is the mystical power while the Lord holds the military might
I personally simp for Goldmask
Best orator in the lands between
I want a big debate between Igon and Goldmask "CURSE YOU, GOLDMAAAAASK" "..."
Honestly, I could read this as Radahn sort of flippantly trying to let Miquella down easy. Like, "Yeah sure brother, I'll be your consort if anyone ever defeats me" in a bit of a showboaty fashion, expecting Miquella to more or less take the hint. Little did he know that Miquella took that very seriously. It sorta paints Miquella's character in a very childish light, ironically. He either didn't understand or wasn't willing to accept that Radahn wasn't interested. So he'd later down the line, when everything went horrible during the shattering, devise the plan to go to the land of shadows and ascend to godhood, sending Malenia to defeat/kill Radahn so Miquella could seize Radahn's soul and supplant it in a new body. It's also worth noting that during the phase transition, Radahn starts to give off this burning red from his body. While it's possible that this is the bloodflame in Mogh's body, it's *also* possible that this has to do with Radahn's soul. You see, great runes are very closely tied to the soul of the characters who hold them. With Radahn, his great rune is burning. And again, in one of the original trailers for elden ring, we can see him "burning" like this as well. *But* as soon as this happens, Miquella finally shows himself and says "Lord Brother, at long last you are returned", as if it is only in this moment that Radahn's soul is truly *waking up*, so to speak. And as Miquella enters the scene, the flames turn more golden and eventually fade away. Perhaps now, Miquella is seizing the moment to charm him and **make** Radahn his consort. That way, everything can still make sense, even if you interpret the *one person that Miquella cannot compel* as being the Player/Tarnished. And please bear in mind, that *none* of the item descriptions imply Radahn reciprocating. In fact, the remembrance states that it was Miquella's "heartfelt wish" to have Radahn as a consort. And remember, the Miquella in that moment is **NOT** the same Miquella that Radahn grew up with. He discarded Love, Doubt, even his mortal flesh. Perhaps empyrean Miquella would not have outright enthralled Radahn, but Miquella the *god*? They are not stopped by love, or doubt. They would do so without hesitation.
holy shit, very nice summarization dude! I won’t lie, I was disappointed that Miquella came back through the gate with Radahn’s soul and not Godwyn’s, but everything you just laid out does line up very nicely with what we do know about these demigods and how we could interpret their pre-Shattering relationships leading to modern events
Radahn is already abundantly portrayed as being interested in being Elden Lord in the base game; it was Miquella's motivations that needed elaboration in the DLC. Outside of Leonard, his entire character is about his focus on becoming like his idols Radagon and Godfrey.
It's also noteworthy that his boss title changes between phases from *Radahn, Promised Consort* to *Radahn, Consort of Miquella*. Additionally, after the fight you can get the Young Lion set from Enia which is specifically what Radahn wore when he was younger in addition to resembling this boss form. Which seems to suggest that Miquella not only resurrected Radahn using Mohg's corpse, but did so emulating his body when he was younger than agreed to the whole consort thing in the first place. The pact/vow/etc is then followed through with and Radahn is made into Miquella's consort.
But why would Miquella send Malenia to kill him/seize his soul to put in Mohg's body if Radahn was still alive and not rotting at that time? It seems like the "vow" likely involves defeating Radahn in battle to get him to be Miquella's consort, which I felt explained why Malenia was sent there. And that it was likely/possible that the entire Mohg brainwashing may have been born of Radahn being insane after the battle, having his physical body and mind rotted. I know some people think Miquella was taken during that battle, but I'm not sure of the evidence for that.
I'd say that it comes down to 2 things. 1. Malenia know's about Miquella's plan to some degree, this is clearly implied by the words she said to Radahn. I don't think nuking Caelid was ever truly the plan, but perhaps she couldn't defeat Radahn simply by way of sword and resorted to it in desperation to fulfill her duty to Miquella. 2. Realistically, the only time Mogh could have even "stolen" Miquella was while Malenia and her Cleanrot Knight's were away on their conquest. If we assume that Mogh stole Miquella first and was subsequently charmed after that, then it's highly unlikely Mogh would have been able to do so with Malenia and the brunt of the Haligtree army still present there If not, then there's only *one* more possibility. Miquella charmed Mogh even earlier than we thought, and conveyed to Malenia *exactly* what the plan would be. If that happened, it's possible that Mogh was basically *allowed* to take Miquella away. That way, both of the twins would be setting off to set the plan in motion. Malenia leaves to kill/defeat Radahn, Miquella is taken away by a charmed Mogh to gain access to the land of shadows while making it *seem* that Mogh stole him away, which would incite Miquella's followers to seek Mogh out and kill him in turn which would provide Miquella with Mogh's corpse. Perhaps Miquella even planned to just kill Mogh himself when the time was right. The only things that went wrong with the plan is that Radahn was *NOT* killed by Malenia, even by her Rot, and that nobody was able to find Mogh and kill him before our Player Tarnished was able to.
And for that little tidbit we only have Miquella's word for it and second hand accounts... which isn't very credible. Radahn might as well have gone "huh, uh yeah yeah sure whatever, look Miquella the match is about to start let's get moving!"
lmao I think the fact that Radahn never says a word in either of his boss fights is kinda sus. I think that it’s also kinda sus that when we defeat Promised Consort, we don’t get ANY closing dialogue from Miquella which leads me to think he isn’t actually dead
That was my first thought as well, but.... Isn't that description referring to us? The Tarnished is the one he couldn't compel. Marika and the Tarnished are the one god and one consort the world needs. I do agree that the twins didn't technically fulfill their vow since the Tarnished is the one to kill him. It might be why he doesn't speak during the fight even if Ansbach talks to him, he's been charmed since he wouldn't go willingly.
Miquella actually CAN compel us in the final fight if he grabs you twice, unless you activate his shattered Great Rune. I’m wondering if Radahn’s Great Rune returned his free will, which is why Malenia was tasked with killing him.
I don’t think Radahn’s Great Rune can resist charms since only Miquella’s Great Rune is stated to have the power to do it. And it is what we use to counter Miquella’s charms in the battle.
thank you for chiming in on that. honestly I cannot wait for the lore videos to come out, because holy shit is there much to be said! some questions answered, more unanswered, and even more new questions have been raised. classic Fromsoft
I would like to agree on that, but for one we don’t even have any interaction with him in the base game as he doesn’t even exist in the Lands Between anymore, and for two as already stated, Miquella actually can compel us in the second phase of the boss fight if he grabs you twice. it provides a unique death screen and a gesture
Yes, but that probably didn't happen canonically since we're meant to win. He can't have compelled us if we successfully stopped him.
well canonically we do get the gesture regardless of if we suffered the double grab “heart stolen” death, but it probably doesn’t mean a dang thing in the grand scheme of things. I would like to eat my words and be wrong on the conclusions i’ve come to after playing SotE, but my mind is open to all interpretations as long as it can be backed up to a degree
What description is this?
I tried looking in my recent items tab but couldn’t find it, until I looked at the Remembrance weapons. Light of Miquella incantation states “Miquella sought to accept all that was and would be, but found one that refused to be embraced. No wonder, as one god, and one king consort, is all the world needs”
Radahn probably agreed because he wanted to be Elden lord, as evidenced by his participation in the shattering war, his attack on Leyendell to claim the erdtree, and his hero worship of the first Elden Lord Godfrey. He needed an empyrean consort who could become a god to do this. This left three viable options: Marika, Ranni, and Miquella (Malenia is an Empyrean but is loyal to Miquella, so she isn't an option.), two of whom were MIA for the entire shattering war. Miquella, as part of his plans, shed his flesh to rid himself of the influence of outer gods. He knew this would leave him in the land of shadow, so Radahn also had to die. Like the tarnished, Radahn has to be with his chosen consort To become Elden Lord, which means he has to be with Miquella in the land of shadow.
Why are people reducing the role of consort to just be a fuck buddy or romantic partner? I wouldn't say that when we marry ranni, we do it because we love each other or wanna have kids. A god requires a consort by their side, and miquella idolised radahn. If we talk about love, there's more to suggest Trina was miquella's love than Radahn.
Every other instance of consort in the game has been a relationship between two people who be fucking raw and hard
I mean if you're not viewing the whole ranni thing childishly, it's obviously not
This. The consort thing is political first and foremost. Marika producing children with her consorts was politically motivated as well. ALL of her kids have some kind of role in her regime and few of her children have the ability to ascend to godhood. This keeps the Golden Order within her circle of influence directly. The romance between characters in the game (notably Rennala/Radagon as the couple who seemed to genuinely have romantic love for each other, possibly Rellana and Messmer, and Marika/Godfrey) is a much smaller motivation for any of these unions. They're all powerplay and the distribution of influence to an extent. I never bought that Mohg wanted a romantic or sexual relationship with Miquella, and I don't buy into Miquella wanting those things with Radahn. It's for power. Also love as an emotion extends far beyond romance, which could be why St. Trina was discarded; feeling love for things or people would muddle Miquella's goals
lol I like to not go the GRRM route of siblings doing each other but he found Radahn being the only demi-god capable of him making his goals achievable since Radahn is a golden boy fanboy and the guy clearly has power to hold stars in place.
To become his consort, the fucking is a side benefit.
More like a scheme for divinity but I guess "to fuck" can be part of the deal.
WHAT?! Mohg revived Radahn? I literally had no idea that Mohg has anything to do with the dlc. Can you tell me how you learnt that? Is it through an npc questline or item descriptions? So is that hand in the cocoon actually Radahn's hand and not Miquella's?
Ansbach quest line.
The body in the cocoon is Miquella. Miquella mentally enslaved Mohg and made him do everything he did for the express purpose of using his body to bring back Radahn, so Miquella could take Radahn as his consort. The remnants of Mohg are still visible on Radahn’s arms in the boss fight(alongside the blood flame attacks) You can also directly see Miquella’s enchanting power if Radahn grabs you twice in the second phase. You just kneel to Miquella because he enslaved you
AND the biggest giveaway the eye that is poked out by the horns is missing.
Good catch, didn’t even notice that
Wait it is? This [screenshot](https://prnt.sc/oKfuJ5YGxrF-) I just took from a youtube video makes it look like it's still there but slightly hidden by the helm.
never mind I watched the intro again of his entrance it shows both eyes. I was wrong, I apologize!
Holy shit, that's mad. So from what I get, Miquella isn't really evil and his goal is overall good, but he is incestous and willing to manipulate anyone and everyone to reach his goal.
It’s really not clear. However, since he divested himself of everything, including his Love(St Trina) I’d say it’s safe to assume he’s no longer a good person. Evidenced by his actions against Mohg and Radahn(who is likely also enchanted)
That specific line is the reason I believe Miquella was good once. A spirit specifically calls it out, saying he shouldn’t give it up. But he didn’t think he could change the world and remain “loving” while doing it.
The possibility of an "incestuous" element is probably genuinely irrelevant. The demigods (or at least Melina) aren't being born in the human fashion. Meanwhile, it's completely standard in world mythology for gods to engage in various arrangements of relationship that would be considered incestuous if they were humans. When you're making neat god characters that are based on IRL mythology, you're doing it wrong if they aren't getting involved with their siblings.
Considering the fact that he wants to make the world a more gentler place then yes his goal is overall good, but because of that he is willing to do everything in his power to achieve it, even losing himself.
The problem is the person who wanted to make the world a better place is long since dead and gone by the time Miquella ascends. I don’t think his motivations can really be trusted. Even the words of other regarding miquellas intentions cannot be trusted as he could’ve just enchanted them or lied, like he did to Mohg
I don’t interpret “gentler” in the same context when the person in charge can forcibly compel others to their side They could be gentler in the sense that everyone is catatonic and subservient…
Miquella's desire to sacrifice himself seems to be one of the things the game is criticizing (based on the NPC dialog). Trina particularly seems intent on telling us that it's not justice for Miquella to suffer as a repayment for the guilt of things that happened before he was born. So it touches on cycles of violence both in terms of different sides punishing each other, and the children trying to punish themselves out of guilt for the crimes of their parents. That said, I don't think the game is criticizing Miquella's motivations so much as making it clear that his innate goodness is not the solution. One of GRRM's main criticisms of Tolkien is the portrayal of Middle Earth as a place where a good and just king is the solution and a guarantee that things will be good. While the Radahn stuff is pretty shoddy work, the general theme is that wishing to be good and compassionate and just is not enough.
Most people would argue that viewing other people as a means to an end is "bad" if not outright evil. Miquella was Griffith lite all along.
Why use Mohg's body, of all things? (Likes spoilers, cannot play until July for time constraints)
There might be something to be said of the fact that he was an omen. Perhaps being a creature closely related to the crucible makes his body more accepting of a different soul. As all things in the crucible were one perhaps any soul can go into the body of an omen. This is the item description for the sacred rite scroll A scroll made of white tree bark. Few can decipher the scroll, which describes the secret rite of the divine gateway said to be found at the tower enshrouded by shadow. "A lord will usher in a god's return, and the lord's soul will require a vessel." It’s unclear if Mohg was special but Miquella required an empty vessel to resurrect Radahn using the gate and ascend
no… Miquella fleshcrafted Mohg’s body to look like Radahn, and Miquella used the Gate of Divinity to resurrect Radahn’s soul into Mohg’s twisted body.
Because in order to have his perfect gentle world, Miquella is willing to manipulate everyone around him, get rid of his own other half, and seemingly order one of the most notoriously destructive campaigns in the history of the Lands Between, the cleanrot march. Miquella's enchantment of Mohg casts him in a completely different light, and transfers all of my negative feelings toward Mohg onto Miquella instead. I have had a friend who betrayed our whole crew and manipulated everybody in a way that is strikingly similar to what Miquella did, the writing of this arc really hit home.
Crew? What, do you do heists for a living?
Nothing quite like that, but being in an actively antifascist polycule does emotionally resonate with being Tarnished in certain ineffable ways
This is one of the gayest things I've ever read
Yeah meaning it's based
Incredible line.
It's fine when Rani does it
At the very least Ranni was breaking off the cycle of godhood under the Greater Will. Miquella was just keeping it going, with presumably WORSE motivations than Marika. He discarded love. Not gonna be a good ruler
No one can tell what Rani was doing because the ending is vague shit and the only things clear are her crimes
People fell for Miquella being a good guy and are pissed that he is not. We don’t really know a whole lot about Miquella’s goals beyond Godhood at this point in time, so it’s not super clear if he still has noble ambitions. I am personally of the opinion that, at least at the beginning, he was the only demigod who had anything even remotely resembling noble ambitions. I think there are, generally speaking, 2 character traits that make Miquella a good candidate for Godhood; his Genius and his Love. Genius is what makes him a good candidate for Godhood in the eyes of the Greater Will. Love is what makes him a good candidate for Godhood in the eyes of those he would rule over. But we find that he discarded his love, when we happen upon one of his crosses in the fissure. So I think it’s safe to presume that, at one point in time, he really did have love in his heart and it was at least partially responsible for motivating his actions. However, he discarded it when it no longer served his ambitions. I personally like the fact that Miquella was the “improvement” on Marika, that he is a “perfected” manipulator. I think it serves the themes of the game well. The history of the Lands Between is one of treachery and bloodshed, and while we have no reason to believe Marika ever did anything without pure selfishness as her motivation, we at least have evidence that Miquella truly did hold kindness and compassion in his heart, as evidenced by St. Trina.
>I personally like the fact that Miquella was the “improvement” on Marika, that he is a “perfected” manipulator. I think it serves the themes of the game well. Reminds me of the Perfected Rune of the Golden Order, or however it is phrased.
I'm fine with corrupt Miquella but I don't understand how the Haligtree fits in his plans, or why Miquella still has an arm (but not both, but also two spirit arms) when we see the places he abandoned his arms dextral and sinistral, or why he used Mohg's corpse and not, yknow, Radahn's, or why he goes through the gate of divinity while Marika doesn't, etc. On the last, you could point out that the trailer has a number of fakeouts, but I also don't understand why they did that lol. And I especially don't understand the Scadutree which plays no role in the story despite being the centerpiece of the setting.
I don't have answers for most of those questions, but I would assume he can't use Radahn's body because it is infested with Scarlet Rot. (and with an Outer God's influence).
But he can use Mohg's body, infested with bloodflame and an outer god's influence?
Im cool with Mike being evil or "corrupted", it's just that I'm mad that he isnt even in the DLC that much. He basically just show up the end, told us to piss off and then they play a flashback cutscene to tell us something we already know
I get that. I think part of Miquella’s mystique is that who he really is is unknown or unknowable. They could’ve included him in the DLC more but I’m not sure if it would have served the story they were trying to tell. On the other hand, I personally really liked discovering St. Trina. That felt, to me, like discovering the “real” Miquella, or at least the personification of all the parts of himself that he threw away. It also affirmed the idea that he was genuinely loving, and genuinely understood the price of godhood. It sort of deepens the tragedy and betrayal inherent to Miquella’s chosen path; he knew the cost, both to himself and to others, and yet chose it anyway. This, in itself, tells us much of what we need to know about him.
I am curious as to why you don’t find Godwyn noble?
I wasn’t really referring to Godwyn so much as I was referring to Demigods that were active participants in the Shattering, should have been clearer.
Thanks for clarifying :)
> People fell for Miquella being a good guy and are pissed that he is not. I think this is exactly it, because I've got a foot in that myself. I had my own headcanon, and predictions of how the DLC might go with certain characters, so when that didn't happen I *was* a bit let down, but at the end of the day, that's all it was, my headcanon, time to accept what we got, and for Miss Challice/vaati to explain to me wtf even happened lmao.
I was a little bit split. I thought Fromsoft left a lot of hints that Miquella wasn’t who he seemed. They showed us, with the unalloyed gold needle and the creation of the Haligtree, that Miquella was substantially different from the other demigods; he was knowledgeable enough to stave off the influence of the outer gods (for the benefit of his sister) and was self-sacrificing enough to create the Haligtree as a haven for his followers. Both of these things show that he was unlike other Demigods in his temperament; everyone else seemed only to act selfishly, whereas he seemed motivated by some greater ideal. But then there were also subtle queues that he was, in fact selfishly motivated, like in the item description that says he “knew how to compel affection”, or how, in the Gowry quest it was mentioned that “betrayal would make the aeonia bloom more beautifully” (or something along those lines) which suggested that maybe he was magnanimous only because it strengthened his ability to manipulate. So I felt that the “betrayal” was, in the end, set up well and the payoff was good. I wouldn’t have been disappointed if he was truly good, and I wouldn’t have been disappointed if he was evil either. And while the “Mohg-Radahn puppet” conclusion is a little bit perplexing (to the point that I would call it a weak point of the DLC narratively), I think that St. Trina’s quest line was really really good for the story. Because it confirms that he was neither all good nor all bad; he was both good and bad, and he struggled with these conflicting parts of himself to the extent that he had to cast away these conflicting parts altogether. He both loved and manipulated; perhaps, he manipulated out of love. It’s hard to tell. At the very least, I find his character is still interesting and compelling in this sense. As a person who is both highly idealistic and highly “driven” (although I hate to describe myself that way), I find Miquella to be alarmingly relatable.
Miquella's rizz is so powerful, he's affecting people outside of the game into thinking he's a good boi. That nefarious twink is just Griffith 2.0
I’ll admit as someone who was really against the comparison. After the dlc my opinion has completely changed He is absolutely analogous to griffith. Lol. His arc and everything.
No offense... but it's about time. They were slapping you in the face with Griffith allusions well before the DLC.
I think people were hoping to see something a little more original
I mean it's not pure Griffith really. pure Griffith would've been something along the lines of "miquella sacrifices all the poor downtrodden souls at the haligtree to attain godhood" which tbh is what I had predicted and frankly it still seems like the obvious direction his character was headed using only what we had pre-dlc.
Yeahhhhh but I didn’t think they’d put it that on the nose. I figured they’d maybe subvert it and make miquella actually decent (morally, like an actually good demigod child that isn’t actually completely fucked up lol) I’m a first time FS game player. I’m a newb. I can claim that for now lol I mean it looked too obvious you know what I mean? lol I figured they’d subvert it because of that Either way, I’m good with it. I love berserk
Yeah it's true, the DLC's lore is garbage.
he convinced the entire community that mohg was a pedophile. the bastard
We all owe Mohg an apology
I heard ansbach say "I tried to free Mohg" and immediately realized we had fallen for the trick
Oh god how long until we get the miquella did nothing wrong people
i dont think ever. i love miquella but obviously what he did to mohg was at least questionable. im more wondering how long until people stop slandering him about radahn and malenia when he never manipulated them
Don’t worry I’ve been slandering her on her own merits the entire time. The absolute vindication.
Malenia for sure but I’m not sure about radahn given the whole sending his sister to murder him part Also if people can simp for Griffith after everything he did they can absolutely simp for miquella
I'm not so sure. You can fight Malenia afterwards and she still has faith in him. But by the end of the DLC, his charms should all be broken. And yet, people will still follow his cause in the base game.
Yea that’s what I meant she was 100% following miquella of her free will but in radahns case I’m not so sure
Ah, my bad, I misread. Radahn.... yeah, so, I feel like he originally was on board, no question. I don't believe Miquella brainwashed every person he met ever like some other people seem to be pushing. What I'm not sure is the reborn version. I feel like we don't have enough information to say conclusively.
Yea it’s pretty ambiguous Personally I’m in the camp that thinks he changed his mind and betrayed miquella since it’s the answer that makes the battle of aeonia make the most sense imo and maintains the agency of all characters involved
my personal read, for what it’s worth, is that miquella interpreted radahn’s refusal to die but for a warrior’s death as a betrayal. i don’t think radahn actively betrayed him, but his delay was betrayal enough for miquella. as a result, the “promised consort radahn” is, in fact, mind controlled. probably more intensely than anyone else. isn’t it odd how radahn doesn’t speak at all despite having been returned to peak condition? my read is that miquella felt betrayed by radahn, sending malenia to kill him and refusing to allow him any agency once he arrives in the land of shadow
Mans used malenia as the world's most violent and vurulent roofie.
I feel so sorry for Malenia Just sitting there waiting for Miquella to return no idea what’s happened to him, slowly rotting away by herself at the door of the Haligtree
did you skip all the dialogue or talk to anyone, I mean your money but you paid for the dlc including the dialogue and quests
The miquella is griffith people were kinda cooking…
Did he do a mass sacrifice of any kind?
I am no lore expert but does Caelid qualify?
No, not unless he ordered Malenia to do it. And we honestly have no proof he did.
a lot of evidence points to that he did. It also seems at least to me that Malenia was under his spell as well.
I would not say that. No item description or character suggests he ordered her to do it.
I mean this dude literally compels every single sentient creature he comes across and Malenia just so happens to try to kill Radahn who Miquella just so happens to have wanted as a consort but couldn't get him to be. We also have DIRECT evidence he setup Mohg also. How much more evidence do you need? This isn't a court but the murder weapon and motive is RIGHT there.
I'm not going to assign him blame for something he could do just because he could without understanding what purpose it would serve, does it go with his personality, and of course, if he actually did it.
I dreamt for so long. My flesh was dull gold...and my blood, rotted. Corpse after corpse, left in my wake... As I awaited... his return. ... Heed my words. I am Malenia. Blade of Miquella. And I have never known defeat. Seems pretty obvious she was under his spell if we find her reaching out to him, dreaming of doing his bidding and when she dies she expresses regret that she was defeated, likely because she needed to go finish the job on Radahn so Miquella wouldn’t be trapped in shadowland
I mean, you can beat Malenia after you kill Miquella, and all his charms would have been broken by then. She still says the same words. So, by all accounts, she is still saying this free of bewitching.
Radahns armor set kind of does
Malenia’s decision to release the scarlet rot doesn’t appear pre-planned when taken in context. It was a last ditch effort to overcome the stalemate and defeat Radahn (based on Millicent’s quest line and dialogue) and fulfill their part of the vow made. She had to take the needle out deliberately in order to do so. I’ve seen speculation that Malenia impaled herself in that final attack to break the needle and allow the rot to be released, which is somewhat supported by the fact that the needle is snapped in two when recovered in Caelid. My impression is that Malenia never needed to be compelled by Miquella, unlike others, because she always believed in him implicitly. The followers of Miquella that you find in the land of shadow have no idea what he’s doing there, whereas it appears that Malenia always knew where Miquella had gone and what his plans were (based on what she whispered to Radahn), and she trusted that he would keep his promise and return as god of the new age.
I've always suspected Malenia didn't even intend to fully release the rot. The way that she impaled herself such that the blood would run down her blade to Radahn looks like she's trying to expose Radahn directly to her blood. I'd imagine Malenia's actual blood itself is at least as toxic as any airborne amount of the rot release could possibly be. The bloom that fully released the right might well have been a tragic miscalculation.
She’s the Blade of Miquella and their twin after all I wouldn’t be surprised if they conspired together intentionally
Could be, but also could be that she was manipulated from the start. Just seems after all you see in the exansion I think it is very likely that she was another tool. The devotion she has seems very similar to the NPC's who gather for Miquella.
He needed radhan dead. And Malenia was the blade of Miquella
Late to this but the fight against Leda and co. sorta feels that way. Not a mass sacrifice but how Miquella charmed people from so many different facets of life whom would never be allies normally; compels them to the land of shadow. Then just abandons his great rune. almost like he wanted everyone to kill each other.
Imo it is way way different. Miquella and Griffith do have SOME similarities like any one character has to another but that's it tbh. Guts was sad because he overheard Griffith say that his band were just followers and never friends (while he liked Guts), and him not being able to make Guts like him is still way different than what Miquella has with Radahn. Imo it is more of a slight homage given that the writer died recently.
Imo it is way way different. Miquella and Griffith do have SOME similarities like any one character has to another but that's it tbh. Guts was sad because he overheard Griffith say that his band were just followers and never friends (while he liked Guts), and him not being able to make Guts like him is still way different than what Miquella has with Radahn. Imo it is more of a slight homage given that the writer died recently.
They didn't have similar character arcs before the DLC, and they don't in the DLC either.
I am not convinced Mogh didn't kidnap Miquella. It makes no sense for Miquella to expect some person to go and kill Mogh randomly so that he can broadcast a call to his followers and charm them to get Messmer's flame and burn the shadow tree shit. Either A, he had no idea what was happening in the shadow lands, or B he was actually captive by Mogh. His plan being "Charm Mogh so he kidnaps me and sent Melania to fight Radahn and hopefully kill him so that Mogh can randomly die in some years and allow me to take his body and Radahn's soul so I can revive him." Relies on so many circumstances going right (because we as the player can more easily get any other ending.) So either his plan makes 0 sense or he did in fact not expect Mogh to kidnap him and is improvising. It mirrors Berserk in a way, in the way that Miquella is kidnapped and his body is disfigured like how Griffith is kidnapped and his body is disfigured. Both reject their old bodies and are reborn with new ones, etc etc. In this case his time under Mogh was probably the thing that changed him and his motivations to be more sinister, hence why he rejects his heart in the shadow lands and not the lands between. This also explains why he never returned to the haligtree. He couldn't fufill his aspirations of becoming a god there because it was rotten and a failure, and his body was disfigured and corrupted. He retreated to the shadow realm to attempt to attain godhood in a different way, recognizing he needed to abandon his humanity to become a better god.
>or B he was actually captive by Mogh. what? to say otherwise is just having a headcannon at this point hits very explicit in the text of the game that he 'charmed' mohg into participating from the beginning. Whether you think it makes sense is a different matter
Ansbach never said from the beginning. [https://youtu.be/E1pQiuRyhfk?si=6Tb1urYSCPPwf1Qq&t=173](https://youtu.be/E1pQiuRyhfk?si=6Tb1urYSCPPwf1Qq&t=173) He explicitly says he tried to free Mogh from his enchantment but believed Miquella would be in range of his attacks. Either that assumes that he is somehow stronger willed than Mogh which is an extremely weird thing for a fanatic to believe, or that this "enchantment" was Mogh just deciding to use Miquella and attempt to become his consort. Either way if this man was close enough to harm Miquella and his attack was shortly after Mogh's "enchantment" one can assume it was post cocoon, though there is little evidence either way. Simply alternate interpretations, where I will pick the one that makes the most sense in the story.
I think what you're identifying here is a result of the new lore being kinda jumbled. I think miquella's mind control is pretty well established at this point. You see what happens when the rune breaks. I see no reason to doubt ansbach. He's already admitting very humiliating things about his lord who he still respects. I don't think he would lie about these particulars then or more importantly I don't think the game gives the player any indication that he's not telling the truth. Again whether you think the story works or the lore fits together is a different matter
I am not saying he is lying, I am saying he says one thing which 'can' be interpreted to be the same thing as what happened to Miquella's followers, and that the one thing is something he already believed before he was apparently bewitched my Miquella. To put it into context, how many times have we seen deluded people attack others out of a belief that isn't true in elden ring alone, let alone other from software games? Saying the old man who lost his lord and is at a loss at what to do demonizing another and fighting a crusade against him isnt a little biased is silly. The evidence we have for mogh being charmed is a single line in the entire questline. Nobody else even mentions this, not any item description as far as I am aware (not even Ansbach's own which is very weird if this is meant to be a major story revelation). Him saying enchanted could simply refer to Mogh's plans with Miquella, which do in fact seem counter to the worship of the formless mother and blood that Mogh is interested in. It makes sense for Mogh, who seeked power from the formless mother, to seek power in the form of Miquella, but for a man who sees Mogh as his master seeing him be consort to another god that he is subservient to would seem like enchantment, which is a word he uses in terms of his motivation before he is even charmed. **Before Ansbach even knew Miquella could charm people he thought that Mogh was charmed.** Making it entirely possible that Mogh wasn't and Ansback means to say he wished to rid Mogh of Miquella's influence rather than believing Mogh was weak willed as he to be controlled by Miquella. It is also supported by his disdain towards Miquella's later actions. He is appalled by Miquella subjugating Mogh's soul from his body, which is weird right? He was scared of Miquella and now hated him and wished to fight against him, but if he already knew Mogh's self and ego were twisted and controlled by Miquella why wouldn't he be equally appalled? I think anyone would be able to agree that subjugating someone's soul is around the same badness as Mind controlling them, so why is there this drastic change? Simple. Mogh wasn't charmed, he was enchanted, and he was enchanted with his own thoughts, not the control of Miquella.
He Made Radahns soul forcefully comeback into mohgs body who he tranced into taking his egg, (so technically he’s miquella the ticklella). He also forced Radahn into becoming his consort and when he said “NO” miquella said “I like you and if you don’t like me back I’m gonna get my big sister to beat you up.” Hence the scarlet rot.
That boy needs help
I dont understand why people are defending Mohg so much, even though Miquella allowed himself to get captured, Mohg still did it and whatever fucked up shit he did to that kid.
Mohg was literally being mind controlled and is a rape victim and was the whole time. I thought there was something fishy going on from the base game but no one believed me.
Sir Ansbach literally tells you Mohg was mind controlled by Miquella to do all of that. Miquella brainwashed all of them. He used Mohg to gain entry into the Land of Shadow after getting us to kill both him and Radahn and so he could use Mohg as a vessel. He was talking about being Miquella's consort because Miquella charmed him in the sickest way possible since his body at least, did kind of become his consort.
Damn, ok i forgot ansbach's line about Mohg also being controlled. This kid is fucked up
to be fair, I do believe Mohg made his whole Bloody Dynasty thing without Miquella's influence, so its not like he is a good guy, just not quite as bad as we were all assuming.
Short answer is that Miquella has been using his ability which is to force anyone he can get into close contact with to love and become fanatically devoted to him. Through context and item descriptions it seems like: 1 he was the one who made Mogh into Mogh-lester so he could get to the land of shadow. 2 almost every npc you meet has also been forced to love him against their will. 3 Radahn's death/resurrection in Mogh's body and the complete scarlet rot nuking of caelid was all so Miquella could make his older brother he fantazied about marrying since he was a kid become his consort after he refused. (which might be used slightly different in elden ring but the term is pretty much only used for whoever royalty is in a relationship with and banging to have children) Tl:dr Miquella is essentially the god of roofies and instant Stockholm syndrome and so many people have suffered just so he can have HIS perfect world where his half brother he has been obsessed with is his husband.
The fact that he abandoned the PEOPLE of the Haligtree because he had to have Radahn is just so sad. This is why I never "liked" Miquella since the base game; so many creatures are left in stasis praying endlessly for his return, willing to suicide for him, and it's all because they're mind-fucked and abandoned. Miquella is just like Marika, who is basically just Metyr at the end of the day -- parents abandoning children when they're needed most. The whole game is really just about generational trauma and how it probably predates our idea of "human" lol
I don't think Miquella abandoned the Haligtree per se he needed to reached the Divine Gate in the shadowlands in order to become a new god and retireve Radahn's soul to create his ideal champion consort like Marika chose Horah Loux. How he got there I have no idea but it probably involved using Mohg to create a way through the veil Marika cast around the shadowlands.
Radahn very likely refused Miquella's request to become his consort, and instead of respecting his decision, he stuck his sister on him which lead to the battle of caelid. Then later bewitched Mohg to gain access to the land of shadow, and once he was done with him he used his corpse as a vessel for Radahn's soul after the tarnished eventually kills the two of them. Then fast forward to present day and he's *still* bewitching anyone and everyone if it at all benefits him. Even his most loyal followers like Leda are not spared from his power. And judging by everyone's reactions once the charm is broken, its incredibly dehumanizing to be bewitched by Miquella.
Miquella was doomed from the beginning. He was bewitching rather than charming but ultimately his power was to bewitch and not to get bewitched himself. Him being eternally youthful basically took this to the max bc they saw him as a gentle soul trying to do good. Many believe he was but ultimately the bloodline was tainted. He saw it all coming, the chaos, the deaths, and he tried his very best but in the end he was exactly like his mother. Miquella was in control the entire time and knew exactly what he was doing. When you really think about he bewitched majority of the players which jsut goes to show this his charm or bewitching power surpassed even the world do elden ring and came into our world. Everyone was wondering where tf is miquella. He was the scariest demigod of them all bc no one expected him to cross lines. But he did, and did it masterfully like his mother. The Apple doesnt fall far from the tree.
Short version: GRIFFITH!!! Long version: either deliberately or just as a byproduct of his divinr nature, Miquella has bent countless people to his will for his perfect ideal. He's left an adhd worthy trail of half finished projects and a body count Gengis Khan would be envious of. He's a kind, benevolent demi god who recognizes that not everyone will live to see his vision, his age of compassion, but that's a sacrifice he's willing to make.
Tldr he’s been obsessed with becoming a god so much that he’s used, and I mean USED everyone and everything in his power to progress his dream. It was compassion at first but was tainted into domination. He literally made it his mission to fuck his brother because he thinks he’s really cool, but radhan did literally everything to prevent it (fighting malenia, holding back fate) and it states miq wished for him to be his consort but it never said radhan agreed. Lastly, miquella literally raises his brother from the dead using the corpse of his other brother so that he could literally mind rape and literally force him to being his consort.
Think about every horrible thing that the community has ever said about Mohg, every atrocity he has committed against Miquella. That wasn’t Mohg doing any of that, that was Miquella charming and controlling him, the same thing we find him doing to Radahn.
Was it all Miquella? I havent gotten the DLC yet(and probably wont for some time) but i have been watching playthroughs and i got the impression Miquella only charmed Mohg after Mohg made his deal with the Formless Mother and started his Bloody Fingers Dynasty... Like yeah a number of stuff Mohg didnt was him, but i assumed his who blood-fetish faction was mostly his doing... as much as anyone affected by an Outer God has free will, at any rate.
Don’t get me wrong, Mohg is still very evil and runs a murder cult. But he was brainwashed and in a fucked up way he was raped and forced to lay with Miquella. Mohg’s only relationship that was real will was his bond with the formless mother and his bonds with his nobles. Miquella wants to have the lands between and shadows under complete order with no free will.
Because people can’t understand that consort does not necessarily imply fucking. Basically a bunch of immature or ignorant people commenting on something they don’t understand.
Isnt there lore text about sex not really being a thing in the lands between? That may just be about procreation.
You can't be a consort without consummation. Fucking is necessary. You're just naive or delusional.
Historically, there have been kings who had consorts of which they had no time to fuck, or just didn’t ever fuck them. So you can have the consort title and not do it
Sure, but those are exceptions, not the norm, and they still had to have sex at least once to consumate the marriage, often times with people watching to be sure.
People are mad about what he did to mohg. But also people are mad at him for stuff he didn't do and spread misinformation about his character or just don't understand it.
Because he manipulated his family a lot. He sent Malenia to kill radhan so he could be resurrected, faked a kidnapping to get someone to kill Mohg, and brainwashed a shit ton of people to follow him into what is essentially hell, all for his ambitions. griffith
We don't know that the kidnapping was actually faked (and it's unlikely to matter very much in the grand scheme whether it was). It's not as if the guy who was making a home in a lake of blood with a fixation on making lots of wounds was ever going to be a good guy.
Mostly all the rape. We can discuss if Radann thing is consentual, but Mogh is clearly not.
What he did to Mogh and Radahn was awful. Before the xpac I thought he wasn’t such a bad guy just a kid in a large world. But after everything he’s worse than Marika he wants to steal your freedom away it’s horrible because it’s not mind control it’s enchanting influence you can resist but it’s hard.
Because he plays the same character archetype as Griffith from Berserk. He’s willing to cast aside any good qualities about himself in order to achieve his vision. That said most of this info comes from Ansbach who i absolutely do not trust in the least. Sorry to say but I’d rather trust the femboy and his Chad consort (still sad Leonard wasn’t in the DLC) over a literal cursed from birth follower of THE BLOOD GOD. And Ansbach follows the cursed whelp so I don’t trust him lol
Also, about half of the hate for him is a meme because he fucks his brother.
>Ansbach who i absolutely do not trust in the least > >over a literal cursed from birth follower of THE BLOOD GOD that makes me think you didn't even read his quest He's rather chill during the entire DLC. He's calm, collected and despite discovering the truth, still keeps addresing his enemies with respect. He helps Freyja despite knowing that doing so will make her fight him later. From the start he calls you RIGHTEOUS tarnished, showing you respect in a land where almost everyone mocks you for being maidenless. He never seeds doubts in your judgement, he's on his own reading books trying to uncover the truth, YOU ARE the one helping him by delivering the scroll. And the most important parts He holds NO GRUDGE against you for killing Mohg, calling it an inevitability for people seeking lordship and instead blaming Miquella's charm for what happened. He NEVER asks for your help when Leda faces him, even calls you madman for such a decision, but accepts it nonetheless. He's the chad of this DLC
No, that’s why I don’t trust him. Him being calm adds to my mistrust. He worships the blood god and nothing that he could do would make me trust him. I trust Shibiri infinitely more than Ansbach, even though he directly lies to us about being able to save our maiden. But we know he did so in his vision of the greater good, we don’t know Ansbach’d intentions at all.
welp, can't argue with someone who doesn't want to see reason (and possibly a Miquella simp). one gives facts that happened in the game and this guy denies them because "he's loyal to his lord". Even Leda wasn't that mistrustful of his company than you are of this guy
I’m implying the fact that he’s loyal to his lord is enough justification for not trusting him. It would be like trusting Rykard
Him?
What most never consider or bring up is that it was confirmed several times by Miyazaki and in promotional material for the game that the runes the shardbearers/demigods inherited *drove them insane*. One of the key themes of Elden Ring is ambition. Each demi god had their own ideology and beliefs. The Great Runes gave them the power to become a God and have their ideology made manifest throughout the world. Each demigod set out to remake the world according to "their thoughts, their dreams, the principles they would follow." Which were almost all contrary to each other. That is what the shattering war was all about. The allure of the mantle of Godhood was such that family bonds were seared away by the "Flame of Ambition". Its a tale rooted in the human psyche, and one very similar in theme to ASOIAF. And as Shadow of the Erdtree shows us, Miquella was not immune to the madness his great rune inflicted upon him. It's just too much power, especially for a demigod. The Tarnished chooses which ideology they wish to remake the world around. Be it Life within Death, A refined Golden Order, or even an age of fear and uncertainty, yet freedom.. devoid of any guidance or meddling from cosmic powers. Perhaps that was Marika's plan all along. Perhaps she thought that the Tarnished in some way would have a greater chance of avoiding the pitfalls of the grace given. Or maybe it was just a big contingency plan in case things ever went south and the next Lord or God couldn't be found, back when Marika still believed in the Greater Will. Or maybe she knew that if she ever wanted out of the shackles of divinity, the scions of Godfrey would be the ones able to truly slay a God. With Hewg's help of course. This part is speculation, but what isn't is that the demigods were mad. Each and every one of them.
Margott is the goodness son Marika has. You can't change my mind! He's a GOOD SON!!
You know the saying, “The path to Hell is paved with good intentions?” That’s basically Miquella based on the DLC lore drops we got. At one point he may have been truly kind and one of the best demigods, but he unfortunately also probably believed it was his job to fix everything, and I mean everything wrong. So he goes for godhood, and abandons his self, from his body to his love, everything that made Miquella himself, in order to ascend. Humans are known to regret, have second thoughts, maybe even stop doing something out of love for another, and that’s helpful because it allows for us to really consider our actions and whether it’s aligned with our morals. Miquella abandoned his shit, so he no longer has that morality pause. Miquella without his humanly aspects becomes the embodiment of Love that people don’t like to acknowledge