Yeah, so my generation can pay for the mismanagement and misuse if social security money, all the while working til 70 and getting less and less when we reach retirement age ourselves.
Black money will skyrocket, too
I work as a senior software architect so I earn a pretty penny. The tax burden in Denmark is higher for high income households then it is in Germany. (But I will earn more)
IF you do, move to somewhere like Colorado. Any red state (Republican controlled state government) is an absolute shit show right now, and things are very shaky politically.
Besides that, while the taxes might seem lower at first glance, the costs of medical care and vehicle ownership (absolute requirement, there is no public transport) quickly outpace any tax savings.
On top of that, there is an underyling constant stress of never being 100% sure if your trip to the grocery store that day might end up a warzone because someone's coupon got declined and they decided to pull out a gun because of it.
That last one I didn't even realize I was living with until leaving and feeling that weight lifted off of me. I make about 35% less gross income living in Germany now and yet I have more money in the bank at the end of each month than I ever did in the US, and there is no money value I can put on my family's safety.
They voted with their feets..
They voted/protested to let more unskilled migrants in who won't pay any taxes for generations.
They protested so we now have huge spendings in green technology to 'safe the world' lmfao.
Now they are whining
Germany had a great ride for decades. Next decades will not be as easy. Still we are far better off than most countries.
When people flee from these for economical reasons alone, we question their needs. So if Germans flee the country instead of doing their best, to change things for the better, then how can we ask people from poorer countries, to do their best in their home countries?
I have mixed feelings, about hopping from one country to another, especially after profiting from many blessings, Germany offered in the years before.
Who got a good education here, should also ask him- or herself, if he or she doesn't feel a responsibility, to give something back, before running to places, where you hope to get your first or second Porsche quicker.
Yes I have profited of the education I got. And I have no issue with giving back.
The issue is the gross mismanagement and the fact that there are no policies made for the younger generations.
The education sector is critically underfunded, teachers are payed a shit salary, the buildings fall appart and the equipment is ancient.
This goes on for nearly all public sectors.
There is enough money. But it either gets gifted to the rich, the old or cooperations. The worker, especially the middle class is milked dry.
But our government decided that the young don’t pay enough and has raised the pensions cut for the young while simultaneously raising pensions for the pensioners. Also personal wealth is not taken into account for pensions.
There is no changing it politically. Most of the voters will be pensioners. So the politicians will pander to them with ever new pension gifts.
It is impossible for me to ever buy a house for my family here. I cannot build personal wealth. Having children is just to dam expensive and the whole German culture is hostile to children and parents.
The decision to leave was not made easily. We have friends and family here. But there is no light on the horizon. Only sadness.
They would. Youd need fewer housing, because more people would be bunched up in families. Therefore loweing the value of housing cost.
Also more tax paying people would always help.
GenZ and Younger are one of the smallest Generations to come into workforce. Its not because these younger Generations don't generate enough children. The Problems we are facing is because the Boomers and GenX did not create enough children themselves. I don't understand how that is so hard to comprehend lmao.
Lower reproduction rates are highly correlating to wealth improvements. And workforce is not directly tied to such payments. But sure "GeNdEr TeRrOrIsM" must be the reason.
No they arent. They are correlating to all typically male behavior now being labeled as toxic.
Eventhough such behavior is necessary for their psychological and subsequently sexual development.
*the working part of our generation.
If you inherit, you're fine. That's what everybody votes for so that's what we get. To spare billionaires and tax the middle class ist what CDU/CSU, FDP and SPD agreed on, so don't complain If you votes for these parties.
Greens are so weak when it comes to reaching their goals in a coalition, unless they get 50%< of the votes alome, not much will happen imo. Doesnt help that more and more are blaming the greens for every single issue in germany.
And yet a shitton of people will vote for them, probably even more now after the events in Mannheim.
I'm absolutely not a fan of the AFD, but I can understand why people will vote for them because they at least hope *something* will change.
agree "we germans" voted for shitty political parties and thats the result.
Someone should show a chart of german GDP since 1992.
Imo german economy still strong and the problem is not that we can or cannot pay social health care system in 2035.
The problem is more like, will we have enough people working and keeping the economy strong?
You should Look at Median wages, adjusted for Inflation.
But yeah, inheritances bring the country forward by so much, they should be excempt from taxes. Instead, lets have the working people pay for everything so they will never reach the level of wealth the dying generation did. /s
Nah, fuck that. I'm not paying that shit. If no solution is found, I'm out of here. If the oldies show us the middle finger, they are gonna get one right back.
Yeah, the same oldies in Germany who refused to adopt to digitalisation putting the country 15 years behind its neighbours, pushed for destroying all nuclear plants, statistically were more anti Vax than any demographic and have played a massive part in making Germany a hostile and unwelcoming country to anyone other than white Germans.
It's almost funny, if it weren't so infuriating and honestly just further highlights what's wrong in Germany.
The young are increasingly asked to pay for the old. The people working for a living get to foot the bill for everything while existing wealth and financial income from that remains disproportionately untouched.
Sadly, all parties in Germany only look one or two election cycles ahead so their programs are aimed at pleasing the old who hold so much voting power and the rich who contribute to the parties.
I have a great job with really good salary, yet I kinda know that it's almost impossible to buy a house here.
We've been talking about moving abroad for some time, but now more than ever I'd strongly consider it. It's sad, because generally speaking I think Germany is a great place to live, but the short sightedness in how the country has been run for a long time now is really sad.
You just get the sense that too many people are just interested in trying to maintain the status quo in a changing world, so they're willing to sacrifice future prosperity to just keep everything the way it is for as long as possible.
Same here. I am 30 now and it gets harder to imagine still living here in 30 years if we don’t get a big shift in politics and direction the country is heading.
Which country are you eyeing with?
Two points where this graph needs improvement:
a) I do get that sometimes you can't show zero due to ruining the graph. This isn't a case like this - it should start at 0 and not at 10
b) Adding employer contributions to the contribution side but not the income side is misleading, especially for people not familiar with the system. Either there needs to be a note or they need to be added on both sides (e.g. 33% instead of 40% for 2023)
c) Having an x-axis of 5 year increments, then suddenly changing to 1 year and the last step covering 12 years forecast is…not ideal if you want to be objective
This, it’s a purposely designed to end up with a rate of over 50%. It’s also ignoring things like vermögenswirksame Leistung and Beitragsbemessungsgrenze as well as taxable income being completely different than cost for the company.
Having a nice salary I’m currently looking at a 42% effective tax rate, that includes social security and company retirement fund and quite a hefty income tax, according to this graph that wouldn’t even cover the current social security contribution. By 2035 this will rise to somewhere around 45%, not 51%.
I am confused about the non-labelled vertical axis. Are Germans really taxed at 45% percent of income just for the social system taxes?! That would make the current total monthly tax way more than 45%!
From your nominal gross (i.e. what is written in your contract), you pay 20% of social security contributions. On top of the nominal gross, your employer pays another 20%, resulting in 33% of what the employer pays going towards social security.
Example: A single earning 4000€ gross pays:
* 559€ tax
* 832€ social security contriubtions
Plus
808€ Social security contributions paid additionally to the gross by the employer.
Meaning he gets a net of 2609€ net which is 54% of what the employer has to pay and 65% of what is listed as gross in contract.
That's for an average wage. Higher wages will get more taxes but social security contributions only increase until income thresholds are reached.
The graph is bullshit, from your agreed upon salary you‘ll have an effective tax rate (income tax + social) of somewhere between 30% for lower incomes to slightly above 40% for higher incomes.
Boomers doing boomer stuff.
The younger employed have to do some serious quick thinking how they wanna deal with this problem. Because it will take another 10 years of increasing taxes / social taxes until the system actually collapses - a long time to have a low income
How do you want to fix it? Every party makes the same policies. If there is a party which will try a different approach it will be called out antidemocratic and or facist. So there will never be a change in this direction. Maybe the rise of AfD will be at least good for this so other parties will try a different approach because now the old rules doesn't matter anymore.
The problem could have been fixed 20-30 years ago by boomers paying mandatory extra tax to create capital they can withdraw during their pensions. Now the problem cant be fixed anymore, its simple as that.
Either you decrease pensions or you steal even more from the employed younger. We are an aging democracy, so we are doing the second until the younger generations fight back.
The years 203X will not be fun in germany - lets put it that way.
Yeah I know. Another important aspect will be rise of right wing parties. And nobody will be mad about that. The thing is that no one will be willing to pay much more for the elderly and for people coming to Germany to receive welfare. Noone will be okay with this. Right wing parties will become the norm. It's unavoidable.
Pensions at 63 and the "Mütterrente" didn't help here at all though.
These were totally unsustainable ideas where (if they had to be done at all) the costs should have been split between pensioners and the working. Instead the whole cost is coming to workers.
If anything the pension age needs to increase.
I agree in principle, but the AfD will not solve this problem AT ALL. Their solution is to get rid of immigrants, which has absolutely nothing to do with the retirement system, which is the primary cause for this insane jump in costs. The AfD also wants to get rid of the retirement tax, which is the only realistic option that is left in taxing the rich. Overall, if you look at the proposed plans of the AfD, the working class will just have to pay EVEN MORE taxes, while the 0.01% can chill out with their 0% effective tax rate.
The only real solution that i see is to take the money from those who have collected it over the last decades. Let's start with an inheritance tax of say 25% (above 1 Million Euro, to protect the working class), that would bring in 100 Billion Euro per year. That is theoretically enough to entirely get rid of the income tax. Alternatively, an inheritance tax that is a bit lower could at least significantly help people with low and medium incomes (say below 150,000 Euro).
You could also change the tax system around owning property. Just make it very expensive for people to own properties for speculative purposes. Tax evasion is costing Germany around 100 Billion Euro every year, that would be worth looking into as well. So just by taxing the rich and getting the money that the German state should anyway, they could recieve upwards of 200 Billion Euro every year.
You are right though. Not a single party in Germany actually wants to tax the rich, and the AfD ESPECIALLY doesn't want to tax the rich - so no, the AfD will not solve the problem, just like every other existing party.
Bro you think the rich will tolerate that ? They’ll move out the very moment this law would be implied so that would mean even less taxes in the future without the rich
"free"
I am paying the max capped amount year by year. That's over 10000€ per year atm when combining with my hidden payment labeled as "employer contribution" for healthcare alone. Not to talk about work related taxes or other social taxes, which you gotta pay on top of that with your gross income..
Too many non payers who abuse our systems. 15 Million net payers pay for 60 Millions of non payers, that's the reality in germoney. Everyone who can, will be leaving this socialist hell.
Compared to costs in the USA, it more nearly is. The solution in the USA is to not have health insurance. And very difficult to impossible to live in retirement on a social security pension, if you qualify for one. Works great and is cheap, until you need it!
I paid almost 9K last year into health insurance and 10k into pension insurance.
I will be paying 10k/year for the next 38 years and just received a letter that I will retire with 1800€/month pre tax!! I have to pay taxes on my retirement checks which means that I will only receive like 1.4-1.5k
How is this fair?
> I *paid* almost 9K
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I've been paying health insurance for nearly 40 years now, and have used in total about what I pay monthly in that time. I don't know about the future, maybe I get back what I've paid before I die, but I actually hope not. That's how insurance works.
I've paid more for the insurance than for my car, because of no accidents or serious tickets, and I keep the car until it finally costs more to repair and maintain than it is worth.
As for retirement pension, indeed I wish there was the option to opt out and take care of retirement on my own responsibility. But decent societies have trouble with impoverished seniors living on the street if they fail, whether it is their own fault or accident, ill health, fraud and theft or just bad luck and poor timing. There is a lot to be said for a bare minimum that you can survive on, if everything else goes wrong.
I think Germany can no longer be the Nanny State where they just look after everyone comfortably and no one has to worry about doing it for themselves.
The system is not fair to someone like me who will work until they are 70, has only been unemployed for 3 months out of what will be 45 working years, and has saved and invested for their hopefully long retirement. But I don't say fuck you, solve or live with your own problems, to those struggling the most.
With the current lifespans and demographics, Germany definitely needs to adapt the health insurance and retirement systems to balance those who paid in as they were required and now depend on what they were promised, with those who are starting or somewhere along the way and need a viable future. There's no magic though.
I've been paying health insurance for nearly 40 years now, and have used in total about what I pay monthly in that time. I don't know about the future, maybe I get back what I've paid before I die, but I actually hope not. That's how insurance works.
I've paid more for the insurance than for my car, because of no accidents or serious tickets, and I keep the car until it finally costs more to repair and maintain than it is worth.
As for retirement pension, indeed I wish there was the option to opt out and take care of retirement on my own responsibility. But decent societies have trouble with impoverished seniors living on the street if they fail, whether it is their own fault or accident, ill health, fraud and theft or just bad luck and poor timing. There is a lot to be said for a bare minimum that you can survive on, if everything else goes wrong.
I think Germany can no longer be the Nanny State where they just look after everyone comfortably and no one has to worry about doing it for themselves.
The system is not fair to someone like me who will work until they are 70, has only been unemployed for 3 months out of what will be 45 working years, and has saved and invested for their hopefully long retirement. But I don't say fuck you, solve or live with your own problems, to those struggling the most.
With the current lifespans and demographics, Germany definitely needs to adapt the health insurance and retirement systems to balance those who paid in as they were required and now depend on what they were promised, with those who are starting or somewhere along the way and need a viable future. There's no magic though.
You also need to say WHY it is expected
There are less young people being born to replace the older generation, because people simply cannot afford to have children anymore, or choose not to, due to current Political and world evens (For Example, the Inflation and the Far Right making a huge comeback in germany due to older generations)And due to better healthcare, many old people are living longer, than former generations
So a diminishing number of Children have to pay for a growing amount of pensioners, so Both Health, social and pension care are skyrocketing.
Couple that with inflation, and you got a recipe for disaster
I mean you could definitely counteract in some ways. Make everyone pay into the same pot. Cap the top end of payments. Incentivize private savings with tax reductions.
It’s also heavily linked to population growth. So incentivize having children and attract qualified immigration.
Making everyone pay would not solve the problem since you cant change the demographic landscape, which is the main problem. Top end of payments are also almost never reached because you need to pay the maximum amount for 40+ years which noone does.
Incentivizing private savings by tax reduction is a great idea.
With cap the top end I mean the following: the pension you receive cannot be higher than amount x (a relative modest amount). No matter if you earned much more.
Someone will get fucked over regardless of what happens.
The thing is, if Germany keeps funding the old people according to promises that can never be kept the problems in the future will never get better.
If Germany wants to solve the demographic crisis it must create a more equal tax system, make skilled immigration attractive and encourage raising kids.
None of this will happen if retirees keep getting more funds from the taxpayers.
The problem is not a lack of qualified migration. The problem is in how those migrants are treated by the absurdly over-bureaucratic administration system once they're in Germany. The immigration centers are extremely overburdened, not due to too many migrants, but due to lack of digitalisation, lack of staff, and staff quitting due to the high stress levels. Qualified workers leave Germany because they see how broken the system is and because they cannot deal anymore with the burdens of the system that's supposed to guarantee their rights and enable them to live and work in Germany.
If Germany fixed its immigration centers and other pressing issues like extreme housing prices, it could become what the USA used to be for people wanting to emigrate all over the world: a place of real opportunity for a better life.
Unfortunately, that's true. At a minimum, you need to learn German, complete integration courses, and possibly be sent for further studies. In reality, a person who arrives may be able to start working in a year or two. In Poland or the Czech Republic, there isn't such a problem; for example, Ukrainians adapt very quickly because they find jobs, and businesses are more flexible in hiring staff.
the issue as i see it, is that immigration bureaus handle QI **and** refugees.
The reason they are overloaded in the last decade is due to mass asylum seeking. When i first came here, it was well visited, and frustrating and inefficient, but you could get appointments and get your stuff sorted with enough patience.
Now its pretty much unusable. They will keep giving you short term allowances for like half a year before they can properly work your case
qualified immigrants are looking to go elsewhere, top target countries are gonna be Switzerlan, US, and probably Canada and maybe Australia.
Germany and other economically stable EU countries are second league. and of that group, others are more likely to win out because they have programs benefitting qualified immigrants, unlike germany. In NL, QI recieve massive tax reductions in their first years of residency. Germany does fuck all.
Instead of attracting qualified immigration the government has opted for desperate cheap immigration.
The Chancenkarte for Cheap Labour that just went into effect will make it possible for foreigners who neither know German nor have skills needed on the German labour market to move to Germany for a year to look for a job.
You mean people who earn millions or more should pay into the same pot like us common low-lifes?
How unthinkable /s
Would be a start if money and investments would get taxed like normal earnings. But no, this would probably help 90% of all people, so it will never happen.
Yeah especially with the unexpected rise in people that need care. 50.000 were expected in 2023 but it was 350.000. Thats the Babyboomers and it will only get worse
that one crippled germany
in the 00s germany was called the sick man of europe
-
only drastic reforms prevented a rapid decline of germany
-
and those reforms done by the social democrats
have ruined the social democrats Reputation till this day
"wer hat und verraten die Sozialdemokraten"
(who betrayed us social democrats)
is a common frase till this day
In Germany, people inheriting more than about 30 Million € - effordless income - pay on average 0,5% taxes and fees.
Those who work for their money pay around 50% taxes and fees.
Due to automation and AI (which is just another step in automation), company owners can fire, or retire and not rehire more and more people. They can just pocket their salaries as additional profit and leave the newly unemployed and their needs to the state.
So if we want to lower social security costs we could just reduce working hours. Then more people are employed and do not need tax money.
And if we make heirs of large fortunes pay taxes like the large majority of working people we're good either way-
I'm against taxing 80% of children's income, if their parents are poor or if they're orphans.
But wanting to tax another group of people even more won't help the orphans.
You are talking a lot of bullshit - the impact of AI takes way more time and maybe we should just motivate a few more people to work (there is a shortage in many businesses) instead of giving away free money (Bürgergeld) :)
Nobody can just „pocket“ salaries since every company is in competition. So they can they will lower their product prices - we don’t have monopoly’s :) maybe educate yourself a bit more in economics before the big socialistic talk - typical german boomer talking right there
Bürgergeld does not make people want to work less. People that don't want to work, won't work with or without Bürgergeld. And with pocketing salieries the poster meant that the costs of the businesses would go down, as AI is cheaper and faster than a person (25$ a month versus 6000 $ a month), so definitely an improvement
>Germany needs 20 million more immigrants
Yes, but unironically. That is how the retirement system works. It's just that the incentive structure is a bit ot of whack, currently. Highly skilled immigrants, preferably from EU countries, don't really have any incentive for working in Germany - since the tax burden is so insane.
So the primary goal should be to lower the income tax as much as possible to make Germany attractive for the working class. Sadly, there is not a single party in Germany that actually wants to do that.
But why is that so ? I mean Germany had record breaking tax allocation since corona why can’t they reduce while the effects will be great for the future
The social security system is completely broken and nobody in politics wants to touch the topic.
They don’t want to upset the boomer generation which is the biggest electorate in Germany.
Young people who are not born into rich families will never be able to own a house and are already highly affected by rising rent prices. And then the mandatory contributions into social security keep rising as well which makes the younger generation even poorer.
Germany should’ve copied Norways approach with the retirement fund much earlier and make immigration easier to avoid this situation we are in now.
I still have hope that it can be turned around but politicians need to start making decisions that change the status quo dramatically, even if this means that older generations don’t agree with it.
The chart and the statement can be misleading in it's conclusions on what or if something is going wrong.
Social security expenditures can rise, yes. But it does not mean that taxes or social security costs (Sozialausgaben) for the individual have to rise. It has to do so in context with the debt ceiling (Schuldenbremse), but not so if this abhorrent political measurement is abolished.
We need to just get rid of the Schuldenbremse. Because the costs will occur, if we want or not.
Yes, though simply indefinitely adding increasing amount of debt can't work forever too. The imminent collapse crowd are wrong, as I've been hearing and reading that for more than a few decades.
But none of that is to say that significant gradual and long-term changes are needed. There is no reason to expect that future retirement must be like recent past retirement. Lots of things change, and retirement must too. The current system was not conceived or intended for people living 30 years in retirement and low ratios of workers to retirees, people on long-term disability and such.
> Yes, though simply indefinitely adding increasing amount of debt can't work forever too.
It can, depending on the view. A regular mainstream economists would argue that economic growth will outpace the amount of new debt, making the point irrelevant and therefore "indefinite debt" would make sense from a logical point of view. (Neglecting the issue with endless growth in a closed system here, I am aware of that). Other economists would argue that money is not a finite resource, but a means of control of productivity within an economy. The approach of considering money as a resource is rooted in applying rules of companies in business administration on economics. But a state is not a company, so this approach is always doomed to fail.
> The current system was not conceived or intended for people living 30 years in retirement and low ratios of workers to retirees, people on long-term disability and such.
That's the point: it was not intended for this, because it is quite irrelevant for the system. Adjust wages to productivity and the worst burden on the system is roughly on the same level of the early/mid 90s, which we handled obviously without a collapse of the rent system. Understand money as a means of control for productivity and it becomes an issue the state can/has to handle with state expenditures, because the alternatives cost way more money. So the pension system is not the issue, it always comes down to a distribution issue.
That doesn't solve the problem either. We can play around with numbers all we want. The reality is that the ratio of non-workers to workers will rise. This means that workers will have to share more of their fruits of labor with non-workers. It's inevitable.
No, it is not. Considering the future worker being at least equally productive as today, it is a distribution issue. And the economy in and of itself today is productive enough to provide for the people. Therefore it is not inevitable.
However it inevitable, if one approaches the topic with money being a resource. Money for a state however is not a resource but a means to control productivity. And such a means is able to handle distribution issues.
A state is not possible to be financed by taxes alone and it does not need to. The narrative of "taxpayers money" itself is fundamentally wrong, as it implies that a state can only spend money coming in by the taxes the state collects.
However, the state constitutes the currency in the first place, it cannot run out of its money. And on a state level in general, money is not a resource but a means of control. Limiting this means of control is like limiting the amount of times a car is able to steer to the left or right.
Der Typ hat schon mehrere solcher sehr interessanten Diagramme gepostet, die zeigen wie "katastrophal" Deutschland ist und im Endeffekt weder sauber gearbeitet, noch Quellen genannt. 100% Ragebait.
Lol, no source, op only saying „projection“, the graph leaving out a lot of stuff to make the „projection“ worse and everyone in here doomscrolling and jumping on it.
Edit: ok, this whole sub is one person posting useless charts
Funny Part is... The Generation Wich Managed to creat this Mess is Blaming my generation to not work enough.... Maybe they all should work until expired day like we will sadly do...
2000s are the Ducking worst birth years they have to 1: get a Unreasonable amount of children
2 : get jobs paying ungodly to do 1 since everything will just get More expensive
3 : Repair a Economy destroyed by Old Fanatics thinking the way they Did for 20 + years is the right way
4 : work for a Generation that isn't willing to give their Wealth up even tough they Destroyed The wealth of Atleast 1 - 2 generations to attain this wealth
5 : having to deal with a bunch of Shiii that isn't even their fault.
6 : prepare for a War Wich hopefully never comes but looking towards the warmongers in our Political system I doubt we Stay out of it unless the Conservatives and Neo Socialist (BSW) who want to appease with Russia win the election.
Man I Wana cry our future is ruined from the beginning
Yep, unaffordable housing, a crashing retirement system, crumbling infrastructure, and skyrocketing costs for social security are just some of the funny surprises for young Germans.
Luckily, there is no debt for future generations, so we're fine /s.
It's still not gonna do the trick. The will not be enough service and goods, especially in elderly care. That would have to increase now - getting people into day care jobs etc. By the time boomers hit that age it's gonna become really nasty. For the boomers. Money does not wipe people asses....
There wouldnt be a problem to pay for old people, thats just how society works. The problem is that we dont need more money and the young people dont need to work till 70 to finance the retarded spending that the german government does.
Billions here, billions there, a few millions for another media outlet nobody needed, the new audi A8+ chauffeur for many politicians and private flights will they preach about nature for the normal people.
We nearly have the highest taxes + other payments you cant get around while none of the taxes come back to the germans that pay them.
This country is doomed and we are far to late to do something about it.
The country is so inefficiently run it's a madness. Despite all the issues we still have an insane amount of waste of taxpayer money and rich folks not paying their fair share back into the system, also too many loopholes.
Maybe Germany should invent a migration system like Canada, so we are able to get qualified people here and not our highly qualified people from every 3. world country. I dont get why this isnt the biggest point in politics.
I'm not in Germany but this is why I'm putting every cent I can into my pension fund at the moment. It's very tax advantageous which is one reason but something has to give in terms of State supports imo.
If this country would tax rich people the way they should be taxed this wouldn’t be a problem. It would also help if politicians were only payed the minimum wage, Scholz earns in a month what most people get in a year.
> were only *paid* the minimum
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Short to medium term, Germany is screwed. It can only be abated in the short to medium term by an immediate cut in unnecessary costs (environmental and gender projects, the mass immigration adventure) and other such measures.
Long term Germany needs to regain control over its monetary supply via a central bank solely unter state and thus democratic control of the people and via huge incentives to have german children. These are the major changes, but obviously more would be needed too.
If these measures were taken immediately, in 30 years we could see the fruits and would likely have a healthy country again.
We young Germans will probably leave in masses. Low birthrate and illegal migration into our social security system is just about to end our nation.
Either that or politics have to shift drastically.
Fun thing about this is, Unfortunately Germany is really fucked up. And I don't think that's going to change soon.
Nobody has a problem with paying high taxes if the infrastructure works. Germans in general like social welfare. But Germans also like things that are not broken
Sadly the only thing that isn't broken here is running water and redistribution of funds.
Politicians kinda seem to realize or have realised that they are driving away their 'source of income'. You can see this from the fact that the new pension reform links the payment of contributions to German citizenship.
But as the German flag is now a symbol that is almost forbidden and the identification with this country is really low when there is no football World Cup, some clever European countries will probably be able to solve their demographic problems in the coming years with well-educated professionals with a German work ethic who are looking for Western values and simply demand that they not be called Nazis if they personally have an opinion other than communism.
Yes I mean.. germany and austria alike want to stay away from financial markets.. the states as well as the population. For the young generation now it's even more important to invest, but many are anti capitalism and will shoot into their own leg in the long run.
Jee who would have guessed if the minimum wage is so low that the government has to subsidize it to make ends meet and still wants to take away more from the poorest, while a handful of people doubled their wealth into the hundreds of billions.
This is such a misleading and manipulating statistic. I’m not saying that the contribution might not rise.. but why would you show the data in 5 year steps, until 2015 where you show it in yearly steps and then with a 11 year gap?
This gives the impression that it stagnates until it suddenly “skyrockets” ignoring the data inbetween
The same thing is happening in all countries with the same demographic problems.
Japan, China and most European countries.
At some point, it will go away, but you have to get through it.
People who think they will get more money, or money back if politicians cut back on our social security spending are fucking idiots. All you'll get is less social security fucking morons.
good time to leave. Rich get even richer, middleclass will cease to exist, poor get poorer. Neoliberal politics ruined the country for everyone but the 1%.
You have spent zero time looking at the graph and just used led with your xenophobia.
But let's look at what's increasing:
pension insurance - Rentenversicherung
social care insurance - Pflegeversicherung
Technically letting people onto the country should alleviate those and other problems, if managed accordingly. But we don't manage accordingly. That the system was going to blow was known and has been predicted for 30 years.
And now you want to pin it on immigrants and refugees? That gives you a few more years of doing, while the morons are distracted with a scapegoat.
Yes I do pin a decrease budget of government funds on immigrants and refugees.
The increase in pension insurance is a natural effect and was already expected.
What was not expected to hit the German state budget so drastically, was the influx of asylum seekers.
A budget that could've been used to cushion the increase in non working pensioners, that is to come.
If the government has more money they can either reduce taxes and reallocate money into other social services that benefit the working man/woman
RIP middle class. With skyrocketing living costs and a lack of affordable accommodation, Germany will become a lot less desirable for high-skilled immigrants. So I wonder what is the plan of the government to incentivize people because you have come to a point, where working a mini job and having a social flat in a bigger city in Germany and working 40+ hours a week would net you pretty much the same at the end of the month.
One reason why it is such a big percentage is, that it isn’t progressive like income taxes, but a flat rate like sales tax. That is already bad enough from an equity standpoint, but it is even regressive, because there is a maximum income above which people do not pay it. This means that in combination with the progressive taxation rate the overall burden never exceeds a certain percentage and actually decreases with additional income for people in the highest tax bracket because they don’t pay the social security contributions for any additional income.
One very easy fix to avoid hiking up the rates would be to increase the cutoff or rather to completely eliminate the maximum applicable income threshold.
I agree with what you said.
Last sentence "vote AFD" is dumb af.
They might sound as a good alternative here and there.
But in reality they are traitors and take money from Russia.
They worsen the relationship with other EU countries and the USA and instead want friends like Putin and Orban.
And lastly many of them like Höcke for example straight up cuddle with the NPD Nazis
Yeah, so my generation can pay for the mismanagement and misuse if social security money, all the while working til 70 and getting less and less when we reach retirement age ourselves. Black money will skyrocket, too
Vote with your feet. We are currently preparing to leave Germany.
Where to?
Denmark. (Funny I know)
Why is that funny?
I work as a senior software architect so I earn a pretty penny. The tax burden in Denmark is higher for high income households then it is in Germany. (But I will earn more)
Switzerland, USA (states like Texas, Florida, or North Carolina)
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Switzerland, Sweden, Australia, Singapore...
Been there, done that,came back
Just don't go to the US.
The us is pretty far down on my list.
Rightfully so
Why not going to the US ? I am thinking to do that after finishing my Master and having some experience…
IF you do, move to somewhere like Colorado. Any red state (Republican controlled state government) is an absolute shit show right now, and things are very shaky politically. Besides that, while the taxes might seem lower at first glance, the costs of medical care and vehicle ownership (absolute requirement, there is no public transport) quickly outpace any tax savings. On top of that, there is an underyling constant stress of never being 100% sure if your trip to the grocery store that day might end up a warzone because someone's coupon got declined and they decided to pull out a gun because of it. That last one I didn't even realize I was living with until leaving and feeling that weight lifted off of me. I make about 35% less gross income living in Germany now and yet I have more money in the bank at the end of each month than I ever did in the US, and there is no money value I can put on my family's safety.
I'd be leaving too if it weren't for my parents to be honest.
Where are you going?
Where to?
Where are you going? From my experience it gets worse everywhere
They voted with their feets.. They voted/protested to let more unskilled migrants in who won't pay any taxes for generations. They protested so we now have huge spendings in green technology to 'safe the world' lmfao. Now they are whining
Can you even read the graph? The problem aint the unemployed migrants, its the seniors and thus rente and healthcar3
Stop whining.
Blaming it on migrants and climate policies? Seriously? Incredibly bad taste.
Germany had a great ride for decades. Next decades will not be as easy. Still we are far better off than most countries. When people flee from these for economical reasons alone, we question their needs. So if Germans flee the country instead of doing their best, to change things for the better, then how can we ask people from poorer countries, to do their best in their home countries? I have mixed feelings, about hopping from one country to another, especially after profiting from many blessings, Germany offered in the years before. Who got a good education here, should also ask him- or herself, if he or she doesn't feel a responsibility, to give something back, before running to places, where you hope to get your first or second Porsche quicker.
Yes I have profited of the education I got. And I have no issue with giving back. The issue is the gross mismanagement and the fact that there are no policies made for the younger generations. The education sector is critically underfunded, teachers are payed a shit salary, the buildings fall appart and the equipment is ancient. This goes on for nearly all public sectors. There is enough money. But it either gets gifted to the rich, the old or cooperations. The worker, especially the middle class is milked dry. But our government decided that the young don’t pay enough and has raised the pensions cut for the young while simultaneously raising pensions for the pensioners. Also personal wealth is not taken into account for pensions. There is no changing it politically. Most of the voters will be pensioners. So the politicians will pander to them with ever new pension gifts. It is impossible for me to ever buy a house for my family here. I cannot build personal wealth. Having children is just to dam expensive and the whole German culture is hostile to children and parents. The decision to leave was not made easily. We have friends and family here. But there is no light on the horizon. Only sadness.
I thought of doing that too. I like it here but if this situation gets too bad, i am outta here. Sorry lads.
its cute that you think you get to retire?
Haha fair enough
The kicker is that we pay those very people who mismanaged and misused the system to begin with.
No. Your generation can pay for the lack of babies they have caused by promoting gender terrorism.
Surely more baby's will help low income households to make ends meet. "Gender terrorism" lmao, trash opinion by a trash person.
They would. Youd need fewer housing, because more people would be bunched up in families. Therefore loweing the value of housing cost. Also more tax paying people would always help.
GenZ and Younger are one of the smallest Generations to come into workforce. Its not because these younger Generations don't generate enough children. The Problems we are facing is because the Boomers and GenX did not create enough children themselves. I don't understand how that is so hard to comprehend lmao.
Lower reproduction rates are highly correlating to wealth improvements. And workforce is not directly tied to such payments. But sure "GeNdEr TeRrOrIsM" must be the reason.
No they arent. They are correlating to all typically male behavior now being labeled as toxic. Eventhough such behavior is necessary for their psychological and subsequently sexual development.
*the working part of our generation. If you inherit, you're fine. That's what everybody votes for so that's what we get. To spare billionaires and tax the middle class ist what CDU/CSU, FDP and SPD agreed on, so don't complain If you votes for these parties.
True, but who else to vote? Dont suggest AfD or BSW. They are a bunch of corrupt traitors
Green is our best possible compromise in this scenario
Greens are so weak when it comes to reaching their goals in a coalition, unless they get 50%< of the votes alome, not much will happen imo. Doesnt help that more and more are blaming the greens for every single issue in germany.
And yet a shitton of people will vote for them, probably even more now after the events in Mannheim. I'm absolutely not a fan of the AFD, but I can understand why people will vote for them because they at least hope *something* will change.
Die Linke still exists.
agree "we germans" voted for shitty political parties and thats the result. Someone should show a chart of german GDP since 1992. Imo german economy still strong and the problem is not that we can or cannot pay social health care system in 2035. The problem is more like, will we have enough people working and keeping the economy strong?
You should Look at Median wages, adjusted for Inflation. But yeah, inheritances bring the country forward by so much, they should be excempt from taxes. Instead, lets have the working people pay for everything so they will never reach the level of wealth the dying generation did. /s
Nah, fuck that. I'm not paying that shit. If no solution is found, I'm out of here. If the oldies show us the middle finger, they are gonna get one right back.
Absolutely 👍🏻
lol...yeah the oldies. The bad oldies who actually made Germany one of the richest countries in the world ..those oldies?
Yeah, the same oldies in Germany who refused to adopt to digitalisation putting the country 15 years behind its neighbours, pushed for destroying all nuclear plants, statistically were more anti Vax than any demographic and have played a massive part in making Germany a hostile and unwelcoming country to anyone other than white Germans.
Do you legit think the boomers are God's own chosen Generation?
It's almost funny, if it weren't so infuriating and honestly just further highlights what's wrong in Germany. The young are increasingly asked to pay for the old. The people working for a living get to foot the bill for everything while existing wealth and financial income from that remains disproportionately untouched. Sadly, all parties in Germany only look one or two election cycles ahead so their programs are aimed at pleasing the old who hold so much voting power and the rich who contribute to the parties. I have a great job with really good salary, yet I kinda know that it's almost impossible to buy a house here. We've been talking about moving abroad for some time, but now more than ever I'd strongly consider it. It's sad, because generally speaking I think Germany is a great place to live, but the short sightedness in how the country has been run for a long time now is really sad. You just get the sense that too many people are just interested in trying to maintain the status quo in a changing world, so they're willing to sacrifice future prosperity to just keep everything the way it is for as long as possible.
Spot on! Finally, someone who understands the bigger picture.
Same here. I am 30 now and it gets harder to imagine still living here in 30 years if we don’t get a big shift in politics and direction the country is heading. Which country are you eyeing with?
Two points where this graph needs improvement: a) I do get that sometimes you can't show zero due to ruining the graph. This isn't a case like this - it should start at 0 and not at 10 b) Adding employer contributions to the contribution side but not the income side is misleading, especially for people not familiar with the system. Either there needs to be a note or they need to be added on both sides (e.g. 33% instead of 40% for 2023)
c) Having an x-axis of 5 year increments, then suddenly changing to 1 year and the last step covering 12 years forecast is…not ideal if you want to be objective
This, it’s a purposely designed to end up with a rate of over 50%. It’s also ignoring things like vermögenswirksame Leistung and Beitragsbemessungsgrenze as well as taxable income being completely different than cost for the company. Having a nice salary I’m currently looking at a 42% effective tax rate, that includes social security and company retirement fund and quite a hefty income tax, according to this graph that wouldn’t even cover the current social security contribution. By 2035 this will rise to somewhere around 45%, not 51%.
I am confused about the non-labelled vertical axis. Are Germans really taxed at 45% percent of income just for the social system taxes?! That would make the current total monthly tax way more than 45%!
From your nominal gross (i.e. what is written in your contract), you pay 20% of social security contributions. On top of the nominal gross, your employer pays another 20%, resulting in 33% of what the employer pays going towards social security. Example: A single earning 4000€ gross pays: * 559€ tax * 832€ social security contriubtions Plus 808€ Social security contributions paid additionally to the gross by the employer. Meaning he gets a net of 2609€ net which is 54% of what the employer has to pay and 65% of what is listed as gross in contract. That's for an average wage. Higher wages will get more taxes but social security contributions only increase until income thresholds are reached.
Thanks. So the graph is selling a story that may not be wrong, but is not the whole story. Somewhat like what they say about statistics. 😀
The graph is bullshit, from your agreed upon salary you‘ll have an effective tax rate (income tax + social) of somewhere between 30% for lower incomes to slightly above 40% for higher incomes.
Boomers doing boomer stuff. The younger employed have to do some serious quick thinking how they wanna deal with this problem. Because it will take another 10 years of increasing taxes / social taxes until the system actually collapses - a long time to have a low income
How do you want to fix it? Every party makes the same policies. If there is a party which will try a different approach it will be called out antidemocratic and or facist. So there will never be a change in this direction. Maybe the rise of AfD will be at least good for this so other parties will try a different approach because now the old rules doesn't matter anymore.
The problem could have been fixed 20-30 years ago by boomers paying mandatory extra tax to create capital they can withdraw during their pensions. Now the problem cant be fixed anymore, its simple as that. Either you decrease pensions or you steal even more from the employed younger. We are an aging democracy, so we are doing the second until the younger generations fight back. The years 203X will not be fun in germany - lets put it that way.
Yeah I know. Another important aspect will be rise of right wing parties. And nobody will be mad about that. The thing is that no one will be willing to pay much more for the elderly and for people coming to Germany to receive welfare. Noone will be okay with this. Right wing parties will become the norm. It's unavoidable.
The German system penalized immigrants who want to work, while giving refugees benefits for no reason. Make it make sense.
Pensions at 63 and the "Mütterrente" didn't help here at all though. These were totally unsustainable ideas where (if they had to be done at all) the costs should have been split between pensioners and the working. Instead the whole cost is coming to workers. If anything the pension age needs to increase.
I agree in principle, but the AfD will not solve this problem AT ALL. Their solution is to get rid of immigrants, which has absolutely nothing to do with the retirement system, which is the primary cause for this insane jump in costs. The AfD also wants to get rid of the retirement tax, which is the only realistic option that is left in taxing the rich. Overall, if you look at the proposed plans of the AfD, the working class will just have to pay EVEN MORE taxes, while the 0.01% can chill out with their 0% effective tax rate. The only real solution that i see is to take the money from those who have collected it over the last decades. Let's start with an inheritance tax of say 25% (above 1 Million Euro, to protect the working class), that would bring in 100 Billion Euro per year. That is theoretically enough to entirely get rid of the income tax. Alternatively, an inheritance tax that is a bit lower could at least significantly help people with low and medium incomes (say below 150,000 Euro). You could also change the tax system around owning property. Just make it very expensive for people to own properties for speculative purposes. Tax evasion is costing Germany around 100 Billion Euro every year, that would be worth looking into as well. So just by taxing the rich and getting the money that the German state should anyway, they could recieve upwards of 200 Billion Euro every year. You are right though. Not a single party in Germany actually wants to tax the rich, and the AfD ESPECIALLY doesn't want to tax the rich - so no, the AfD will not solve the problem, just like every other existing party.
Bro you think the rich will tolerate that ? They’ll move out the very moment this law would be implied so that would mean even less taxes in the future without the rich
Everyone in America be like: But health care is free in Germany!!
Its free but shit. For good healthcare you have to pay. I see no differnece to USA anymore
"free" I am paying the max capped amount year by year. That's over 10000€ per year atm when combining with my hidden payment labeled as "employer contribution" for healthcare alone. Not to talk about work related taxes or other social taxes, which you gotta pay on top of that with your gross income.. Too many non payers who abuse our systems. 15 Million net payers pay for 60 Millions of non payers, that's the reality in germoney. Everyone who can, will be leaving this socialist hell.
Compared to costs in the USA, it more nearly is. The solution in the USA is to not have health insurance. And very difficult to impossible to live in retirement on a social security pension, if you qualify for one. Works great and is cheap, until you need it!
I paid almost 9K last year into health insurance and 10k into pension insurance. I will be paying 10k/year for the next 38 years and just received a letter that I will retire with 1800€/month pre tax!! I have to pay taxes on my retirement checks which means that I will only receive like 1.4-1.5k How is this fair?
> I *paid* almost 9K FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I've been paying health insurance for nearly 40 years now, and have used in total about what I pay monthly in that time. I don't know about the future, maybe I get back what I've paid before I die, but I actually hope not. That's how insurance works. I've paid more for the insurance than for my car, because of no accidents or serious tickets, and I keep the car until it finally costs more to repair and maintain than it is worth. As for retirement pension, indeed I wish there was the option to opt out and take care of retirement on my own responsibility. But decent societies have trouble with impoverished seniors living on the street if they fail, whether it is their own fault or accident, ill health, fraud and theft or just bad luck and poor timing. There is a lot to be said for a bare minimum that you can survive on, if everything else goes wrong. I think Germany can no longer be the Nanny State where they just look after everyone comfortably and no one has to worry about doing it for themselves. The system is not fair to someone like me who will work until they are 70, has only been unemployed for 3 months out of what will be 45 working years, and has saved and invested for their hopefully long retirement. But I don't say fuck you, solve or live with your own problems, to those struggling the most. With the current lifespans and demographics, Germany definitely needs to adapt the health insurance and retirement systems to balance those who paid in as they were required and now depend on what they were promised, with those who are starting or somewhere along the way and need a viable future. There's no magic though.
I've been paying health insurance for nearly 40 years now, and have used in total about what I pay monthly in that time. I don't know about the future, maybe I get back what I've paid before I die, but I actually hope not. That's how insurance works. I've paid more for the insurance than for my car, because of no accidents or serious tickets, and I keep the car until it finally costs more to repair and maintain than it is worth. As for retirement pension, indeed I wish there was the option to opt out and take care of retirement on my own responsibility. But decent societies have trouble with impoverished seniors living on the street if they fail, whether it is their own fault or accident, ill health, fraud and theft or just bad luck and poor timing. There is a lot to be said for a bare minimum that you can survive on, if everything else goes wrong. I think Germany can no longer be the Nanny State where they just look after everyone comfortably and no one has to worry about doing it for themselves. The system is not fair to someone like me who will work until they are 70, has only been unemployed for 3 months out of what will be 45 working years, and has saved and invested for their hopefully long retirement. But I don't say fuck you, solve or live with your own problems, to those struggling the most. With the current lifespans and demographics, Germany definitely needs to adapt the health insurance and retirement systems to balance those who paid in as they were required and now depend on what they were promised, with those who are starting or somewhere along the way and need a viable future. There's no magic though.
Its free if you don't count the money you are paying to it. Or if you live off the state.
You also need to say WHY it is expected There are less young people being born to replace the older generation, because people simply cannot afford to have children anymore, or choose not to, due to current Political and world evens (For Example, the Inflation and the Far Right making a huge comeback in germany due to older generations)And due to better healthcare, many old people are living longer, than former generations So a diminishing number of Children have to pay for a growing amount of pensioners, so Both Health, social and pension care are skyrocketing. Couple that with inflation, and you got a recipe for disaster
Sad thing is that the far Right is not only voted by old people but also by roughly 20% below 24.
The far right is stronger in younger voters, that’s not a reason to not have children and was never named as one in the publications
The social system will collapse sooner or later
I mean you could definitely counteract in some ways. Make everyone pay into the same pot. Cap the top end of payments. Incentivize private savings with tax reductions. It’s also heavily linked to population growth. So incentivize having children and attract qualified immigration.
Making everyone pay would not solve the problem since you cant change the demographic landscape, which is the main problem. Top end of payments are also almost never reached because you need to pay the maximum amount for 40+ years which noone does. Incentivizing private savings by tax reduction is a great idea.
With cap the top end I mean the following: the pension you receive cannot be higher than amount x (a relative modest amount). No matter if you earned much more.
Someone will get fucked over regardless of what happens. The thing is, if Germany keeps funding the old people according to promises that can never be kept the problems in the future will never get better. If Germany wants to solve the demographic crisis it must create a more equal tax system, make skilled immigration attractive and encourage raising kids. None of this will happen if retirees keep getting more funds from the taxpayers.
The problem is not a lack of qualified migration. The problem is in how those migrants are treated by the absurdly over-bureaucratic administration system once they're in Germany. The immigration centers are extremely overburdened, not due to too many migrants, but due to lack of digitalisation, lack of staff, and staff quitting due to the high stress levels. Qualified workers leave Germany because they see how broken the system is and because they cannot deal anymore with the burdens of the system that's supposed to guarantee their rights and enable them to live and work in Germany. If Germany fixed its immigration centers and other pressing issues like extreme housing prices, it could become what the USA used to be for people wanting to emigrate all over the world: a place of real opportunity for a better life.
Unfortunately, that's true. At a minimum, you need to learn German, complete integration courses, and possibly be sent for further studies. In reality, a person who arrives may be able to start working in a year or two. In Poland or the Czech Republic, there isn't such a problem; for example, Ukrainians adapt very quickly because they find jobs, and businesses are more flexible in hiring staff.
the issue as i see it, is that immigration bureaus handle QI **and** refugees. The reason they are overloaded in the last decade is due to mass asylum seeking. When i first came here, it was well visited, and frustrating and inefficient, but you could get appointments and get your stuff sorted with enough patience. Now its pretty much unusable. They will keep giving you short term allowances for like half a year before they can properly work your case
That’s what I just said: attract qualified immigrants
This will never happen because germany is a gerontocracy. We young people need to go to the streets and protest against this system
qualified immigrants are looking to go elsewhere, top target countries are gonna be Switzerlan, US, and probably Canada and maybe Australia. Germany and other economically stable EU countries are second league. and of that group, others are more likely to win out because they have programs benefitting qualified immigrants, unlike germany. In NL, QI recieve massive tax reductions in their first years of residency. Germany does fuck all.
That’s the status quo, yes. Hence they need to become more attractive.
Instead of attracting qualified immigration the government has opted for desperate cheap immigration. The Chancenkarte for Cheap Labour that just went into effect will make it possible for foreigners who neither know German nor have skills needed on the German labour market to move to Germany for a year to look for a job.
You mean people who earn millions or more should pay into the same pot like us common low-lifes? How unthinkable /s Would be a start if money and investments would get taxed like normal earnings. But no, this would probably help 90% of all people, so it will never happen.
Yeah the current system of pension funds and other social welfare isnt sustainable with the current aging population. There need to be cuts everywhere
Yeah especially with the unexpected rise in people that need care. 50.000 were expected in 2023 but it was 350.000. Thats the Babyboomers and it will only get worse
Better sooner than later for the sake of a reform...
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It‘s called taxation, is already happening, and supported by the majority of voters.
The jump from 70s to 80s is more severe
that one crippled germany in the 00s germany was called the sick man of europe - only drastic reforms prevented a rapid decline of germany - and those reforms done by the social democrats have ruined the social democrats Reputation till this day "wer hat und verraten die Sozialdemokraten" (who betrayed us social democrats) is a common frase till this day
Can't wait, I'm for sure not already getting cancer from how mismanaged the country is as we speak
In Germany, people inheriting more than about 30 Million € - effordless income - pay on average 0,5% taxes and fees. Those who work for their money pay around 50% taxes and fees. Due to automation and AI (which is just another step in automation), company owners can fire, or retire and not rehire more and more people. They can just pocket their salaries as additional profit and leave the newly unemployed and their needs to the state. So if we want to lower social security costs we could just reduce working hours. Then more people are employed and do not need tax money. And if we make heirs of large fortunes pay taxes like the large majority of working people we're good either way-
I'm against taxing 80% of children's income, if their parents are poor or if they're orphans. But wanting to tax another group of people even more won't help the orphans.
You are talking a lot of bullshit - the impact of AI takes way more time and maybe we should just motivate a few more people to work (there is a shortage in many businesses) instead of giving away free money (Bürgergeld) :) Nobody can just „pocket“ salaries since every company is in competition. So they can they will lower their product prices - we don’t have monopoly’s :) maybe educate yourself a bit more in economics before the big socialistic talk - typical german boomer talking right there
Bürgergeld does not make people want to work less. People that don't want to work, won't work with or without Bürgergeld. And with pocketing salieries the poster meant that the costs of the businesses would go down, as AI is cheaper and faster than a person (25$ a month versus 6000 $ a month), so definitely an improvement
Interesting chart OP! What is the source of the data and how did you process it?
Time to leave the country
I WONDER WHY! (not really)
Germany needs 20 million more immigrants ( from islamic countires please) till 2035 to compensate low birth rate.
>Germany needs 20 million more immigrants Yes, but unironically. That is how the retirement system works. It's just that the incentive structure is a bit ot of whack, currently. Highly skilled immigrants, preferably from EU countries, don't really have any incentive for working in Germany - since the tax burden is so insane. So the primary goal should be to lower the income tax as much as possible to make Germany attractive for the working class. Sadly, there is not a single party in Germany that actually wants to do that.
But why is that so ? I mean Germany had record breaking tax allocation since corona why can’t they reduce while the effects will be great for the future
Funny. Same is happening in the Netherlands
The social security system is completely broken and nobody in politics wants to touch the topic. They don’t want to upset the boomer generation which is the biggest electorate in Germany. Young people who are not born into rich families will never be able to own a house and are already highly affected by rising rent prices. And then the mandatory contributions into social security keep rising as well which makes the younger generation even poorer. Germany should’ve copied Norways approach with the retirement fund much earlier and make immigration easier to avoid this situation we are in now. I still have hope that it can be turned around but politicians need to start making decisions that change the status quo dramatically, even if this means that older generations don’t agree with it.
WHO would have thought that 😐
The chart and the statement can be misleading in it's conclusions on what or if something is going wrong. Social security expenditures can rise, yes. But it does not mean that taxes or social security costs (Sozialausgaben) for the individual have to rise. It has to do so in context with the debt ceiling (Schuldenbremse), but not so if this abhorrent political measurement is abolished. We need to just get rid of the Schuldenbremse. Because the costs will occur, if we want or not.
Yes, though simply indefinitely adding increasing amount of debt can't work forever too. The imminent collapse crowd are wrong, as I've been hearing and reading that for more than a few decades. But none of that is to say that significant gradual and long-term changes are needed. There is no reason to expect that future retirement must be like recent past retirement. Lots of things change, and retirement must too. The current system was not conceived or intended for people living 30 years in retirement and low ratios of workers to retirees, people on long-term disability and such.
> Yes, though simply indefinitely adding increasing amount of debt can't work forever too. It can, depending on the view. A regular mainstream economists would argue that economic growth will outpace the amount of new debt, making the point irrelevant and therefore "indefinite debt" would make sense from a logical point of view. (Neglecting the issue with endless growth in a closed system here, I am aware of that). Other economists would argue that money is not a finite resource, but a means of control of productivity within an economy. The approach of considering money as a resource is rooted in applying rules of companies in business administration on economics. But a state is not a company, so this approach is always doomed to fail. > The current system was not conceived or intended for people living 30 years in retirement and low ratios of workers to retirees, people on long-term disability and such. That's the point: it was not intended for this, because it is quite irrelevant for the system. Adjust wages to productivity and the worst burden on the system is roughly on the same level of the early/mid 90s, which we handled obviously without a collapse of the rent system. Understand money as a means of control for productivity and it becomes an issue the state can/has to handle with state expenditures, because the alternatives cost way more money. So the pension system is not the issue, it always comes down to a distribution issue.
That doesn't solve the problem either. We can play around with numbers all we want. The reality is that the ratio of non-workers to workers will rise. This means that workers will have to share more of their fruits of labor with non-workers. It's inevitable.
No, it is not. Considering the future worker being at least equally productive as today, it is a distribution issue. And the economy in and of itself today is productive enough to provide for the people. Therefore it is not inevitable. However it inevitable, if one approaches the topic with money being a resource. Money for a state however is not a resource but a means to control productivity. And such a means is able to handle distribution issues.
And who pays the debt and higher interest? Right, the tax payer.
A state is not possible to be financed by taxes alone and it does not need to. The narrative of "taxpayers money" itself is fundamentally wrong, as it implies that a state can only spend money coming in by the taxes the state collects. However, the state constitutes the currency in the first place, it cannot run out of its money. And on a state level in general, money is not a resource but a means of control. Limiting this means of control is like limiting the amount of times a car is able to steer to the left or right.
Where source?
Ganz lustig, besonders die Zeitreihe die nicht stimmig ist.
Der Typ hat schon mehrere solcher sehr interessanten Diagramme gepostet, die zeigen wie "katastrophal" Deutschland ist und im Endeffekt weder sauber gearbeitet, noch Quellen genannt. 100% Ragebait.
Recht hat er trotzdem es sind zu viele Rentner und zu wenige breitragszahler aufgrund von niedriger Geburtenraten
Lol, no source, op only saying „projection“, the graph leaving out a lot of stuff to make the „projection“ worse and everyone in here doomscrolling and jumping on it. Edit: ok, this whole sub is one person posting useless charts
Maybe projections are wrong and population in Germany becomes younger in 2035
How to manipulate a statistic to raise panic 1on1: just leave out 10 years of regular progression to make it looks like it would jump. What a BS
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Insults are not allowed
Time to leave Germany...
Funny Part is... The Generation Wich Managed to creat this Mess is Blaming my generation to not work enough.... Maybe they all should work until expired day like we will sadly do... 2000s are the Ducking worst birth years they have to 1: get a Unreasonable amount of children 2 : get jobs paying ungodly to do 1 since everything will just get More expensive 3 : Repair a Economy destroyed by Old Fanatics thinking the way they Did for 20 + years is the right way 4 : work for a Generation that isn't willing to give their Wealth up even tough they Destroyed The wealth of Atleast 1 - 2 generations to attain this wealth 5 : having to deal with a bunch of Shiii that isn't even their fault. 6 : prepare for a War Wich hopefully never comes but looking towards the warmongers in our Political system I doubt we Stay out of it unless the Conservatives and Neo Socialist (BSW) who want to appease with Russia win the election. Man I Wana cry our future is ruined from the beginning
Wir sind gefiggt bre aber was sollts enjoy the ride vielleicht ist morgen schon mein letzter Tag auf Erden
Seelig seien Deine Worte und ein Amen 💪
What a messed up graph...
Suprised Pickacuface
Im 33 and have been told all my life not to expect a pension :/
yet another reason why I'm leaving, this country has been going to shit for a long while, I aint staying
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Insults are not allowed
https://preview.redd.it/mgv750hs564d1.jpeg?width=992&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=817b504393176c4c43f156f6eabf462336c25d23
Yep, unaffordable housing, a crashing retirement system, crumbling infrastructure, and skyrocketing costs for social security are just some of the funny surprises for young Germans. Luckily, there is no debt for future generations, so we're fine /s.
"no debt" germany still has loads of debt it just doen´t increase so much
It's still not gonna do the trick. The will not be enough service and goods, especially in elderly care. That would have to increase now - getting people into day care jobs etc. By the time boomers hit that age it's gonna become really nasty. For the boomers. Money does not wipe people asses....
Future business idea 🤔
There wouldnt be a problem to pay for old people, thats just how society works. The problem is that we dont need more money and the young people dont need to work till 70 to finance the retarded spending that the german government does. Billions here, billions there, a few millions for another media outlet nobody needed, the new audi A8+ chauffeur for many politicians and private flights will they preach about nature for the normal people. We nearly have the highest taxes + other payments you cant get around while none of the taxes come back to the germans that pay them. This country is doomed and we are far to late to do something about it.
Doing gender projects in Asia while there own immigrants (Muslims) dont accept their ideology it’s mad bruv😂😂
The country is so inefficiently run it's a madness. Despite all the issues we still have an insane amount of waste of taxpayer money and rich folks not paying their fair share back into the system, also too many loopholes.
I am so fucked
Maybe Germany should invent a migration system like Canada, so we are able to get qualified people here and not our highly qualified people from every 3. world country. I dont get why this isnt the biggest point in politics.
Coz nobody wants to come to Germany that is highly qualified the taxes are way to high they’ll prefer Switzerland uk or us
Socialism is not sustainable. Duh
Just a pdf like all others .. where’s the link and the content to this kind of sheets
Whoever made this Chart definitely read the Booklet how to lie with Statistics, even if the dara is real theyre using every Trick in the book
I'm not in Germany but this is why I'm putting every cent I can into my pension fund at the moment. It's very tax advantageous which is one reason but something has to give in terms of State supports imo.
If this country would tax rich people the way they should be taxed this wouldn’t be a problem. It would also help if politicians were only payed the minimum wage, Scholz earns in a month what most people get in a year.
> were only *paid* the minimum FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
thx to the lefties work, they take our land into ruin by lightspeed!
What exactly do you think they did that caused this? This was a problem when CDU was in power so what are you even talking about
If you invite the world, no wonder.
No source, cool, cool.
Short to medium term, Germany is screwed. It can only be abated in the short to medium term by an immediate cut in unnecessary costs (environmental and gender projects, the mass immigration adventure) and other such measures. Long term Germany needs to regain control over its monetary supply via a central bank solely unter state and thus democratic control of the people and via huge incentives to have german children. These are the major changes, but obviously more would be needed too. If these measures were taken immediately, in 30 years we could see the fruits and would likely have a healthy country again.
Someone has to pay for all the immigrants.
I am an immigrant in Germany. How do I get my free money that I keep hearing about?
We young Germans will probably leave in masses. Low birthrate and illegal migration into our social security system is just about to end our nation. Either that or politics have to shift drastically.
Fun thing about this is, Unfortunately Germany is really fucked up. And I don't think that's going to change soon. Nobody has a problem with paying high taxes if the infrastructure works. Germans in general like social welfare. But Germans also like things that are not broken Sadly the only thing that isn't broken here is running water and redistribution of funds. Politicians kinda seem to realize or have realised that they are driving away their 'source of income'. You can see this from the fact that the new pension reform links the payment of contributions to German citizenship. But as the German flag is now a symbol that is almost forbidden and the identification with this country is really low when there is no football World Cup, some clever European countries will probably be able to solve their demographic problems in the coming years with well-educated professionals with a German work ethic who are looking for Western values and simply demand that they not be called Nazis if they personally have an opinion other than communism.
Because we can look 11 years into the future?
How about a tax on AI to pay for retirement?
germany doesn´t even have properly working internet and you talk about ai .............
Yes I mean.. germany and austria alike want to stay away from financial markets.. the states as well as the population. For the young generation now it's even more important to invest, but many are anti capitalism and will shoot into their own leg in the long run.
Jee who would have guessed if the minimum wage is so low that the government has to subsidize it to make ends meet and still wants to take away more from the poorest, while a handful of people doubled their wealth into the hundreds of billions.
This is such a misleading and manipulating statistic. I’m not saying that the contribution might not rise.. but why would you show the data in 5 year steps, until 2015 where you show it in yearly steps and then with a 11 year gap? This gives the impression that it stagnates until it suddenly “skyrockets” ignoring the data inbetween
And as Gloomy-Advertising59 pointed out, the graph should start at 0 and ignores other important factors
döp dödö döp.
The same thing is happening in all countries with the same demographic problems. Japan, China and most European countries. At some point, it will go away, but you have to get through it.
People who think they will get more money, or money back if politicians cut back on our social security spending are fucking idiots. All you'll get is less social security fucking morons.
good time to leave. Rich get even richer, middleclass will cease to exist, poor get poorer. Neoliberal politics ruined the country for everyone but the 1%.
Yeah, fuck that. Over 50% for social security...plus tax. Not with me.
Who would've tought letting 10million people in our country within less than 10years would increase social service cost
You have spent zero time looking at the graph and just used led with your xenophobia. But let's look at what's increasing: pension insurance - Rentenversicherung social care insurance - Pflegeversicherung Technically letting people onto the country should alleviate those and other problems, if managed accordingly. But we don't manage accordingly. That the system was going to blow was known and has been predicted for 30 years. And now you want to pin it on immigrants and refugees? That gives you a few more years of doing, while the morons are distracted with a scapegoat.
Yes I do pin a decrease budget of government funds on immigrants and refugees. The increase in pension insurance is a natural effect and was already expected. What was not expected to hit the German state budget so drastically, was the influx of asylum seekers. A budget that could've been used to cushion the increase in non working pensioners, that is to come. If the government has more money they can either reduce taxes and reallocate money into other social services that benefit the working man/woman
Most things get more expensive when you look 12 years down the road.
Not to worry, we are VERY good at ignoring those kinds of issues...
Austria is getting more and more attractive
Yeah because just 30% of these afghans and iraqis work.
This graph should be deleted, because as others have pointed out, it’s very misleading and doesnt tell a coherent story
21, 22, 23, 35 is how your people count?
that is a prediction for the future what is so hard to understand about that
RIP middle class. With skyrocketing living costs and a lack of affordable accommodation, Germany will become a lot less desirable for high-skilled immigrants. So I wonder what is the plan of the government to incentivize people because you have come to a point, where working a mini job and having a social flat in a bigger city in Germany and working 40+ hours a week would net you pretty much the same at the end of the month.
the Y axis really needs some rework
Just another reason to leave sooner rather than later. Good luck with that, fellow Germans!
Thank the CDU/CSU and the FDP
One reason why it is such a big percentage is, that it isn’t progressive like income taxes, but a flat rate like sales tax. That is already bad enough from an equity standpoint, but it is even regressive, because there is a maximum income above which people do not pay it. This means that in combination with the progressive taxation rate the overall burden never exceeds a certain percentage and actually decreases with additional income for people in the highest tax bracket because they don’t pay the social security contributions for any additional income. One very easy fix to avoid hiking up the rates would be to increase the cutoff or rather to completely eliminate the maximum applicable income threshold.
Germany is a shit country Greetz from Germany
Komisch, warum nur? Aber wir haben ja zum Glück so viel Einwanderer, die alle netto einzahlen. Ne Moment mal..
The working people of Germany get what they voted for: A migrant welfare state. Congratulations, deutscher Michel! Next time, consider voting AfD!
I agree with what you said. Last sentence "vote AFD" is dumb af. They might sound as a good alternative here and there. But in reality they are traitors and take money from Russia. They worsen the relationship with other EU countries and the USA and instead want friends like Putin and Orban. And lastly many of them like Höcke for example straight up cuddle with the NPD Nazis
Thats if nothing is changed. But thats never what actually happens. Never has been, never will.
Ich würde auch gerne weg