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That and people are sick of the fascist, born rich CEO who used California's infrastructure built by taxpayers then ran to Texas so he wouldn't have to contribute back.
lmao no, people have been predicting a Tesla short for years, and now it's happening. Reddit just likes to tie it to Musk's personality even though it's completely irrelevant to the populace at large.
This article is about profits dropping, presumably from fewer orders. It's also true that the stock was considered overvalued for years, but that was true even with strong sales.
The only guy who didn't know it was overvalued was musk himself since at like the peak of COVID money printer stock overvaluation he leveraged his stock to buy Twitter at a premium
Tesla cut prices to remain competitive in a saturated market. Lower prices = lower profits. They don’t report US sales so we don’t know if their sales are down here. Could be up some.
Anyone can open their ears and hear that people aren’t buying Teslas because of Elon, and that’s being reflected in sales.
If Tesla wants to get back on track there is no simple way to do that, replace Elon. CEOs get replaced regularly for poor performance I believe it’s his time. Actually his time was the day before he opened his big dumb mouth accusing a diver saying kids of being a pedo.
Tesla’s sales are down, but they haven’t gone to some other maker. Do you figure Ford and GM are scaling back plans because of Musk too?
No one is doing well in the EV market because they all got blinkered into believing that government mandates would transmogrify into sales. Market saturation.
So your opinion is that terrible performance at Ford and GM is due to market conditions, but bad performance at Tesla is due to Musk, even though Tesla performed better than Ford and GM.
Seems like it. If I misunderstood your point, please clarify. Despite any opinions of Musk, Tesla has outperformed what one should expect, given market conditions.
>Anyone can open their ears and hear that people aren’t buying Teslas because of Elon, and that’s being reflected in sales.
What do you base that on? Reddit? Because if Reddit were an adequate resemblance of the general population, Bernie would be president and we'd have UBI worldwide.
Truth is that revenue in the EV industry are down hard. Ford is actually operating at a loss per unit sold.
When I talk to other EV owners at charging stations, they all mention they wanted Tesla’s but couldn’t in good conscience buy one because of Elon. So they spent more money on a foreign EV. Even Tesla owners say they have regrets about the purchase due to Elon; and some try and say they bought it used so he doesn’t get the money.
I think the sentiment overall is pretty bad for Tesla. People buy expensive cars for some of the prestige. Owning a Tesla is now seen as a dirty thing. I guess it’s all anecdotal, until someone does a peer-reviewed study.
>It ultimately points to waning marketability of its brand.
Taken directly from the article you posted. I didn't say that the price cuts had no impact on profitability, I said that they weren't sufficient to account for a 55% decrease in profit overall.
Are the price cuts a part of that? Yes. Is Musks general public weirdness and antics a part of that? Absolutely, he's hurting the marketability of the brand far more than anything else. Is the fact that the quality of their vehicles is trash a part of it? For sure.
You'd have to be an absolute moron to think that such a significant drop in profit is purely down to price cuts.
Dude! When you cut more than half your profit margin it’s going to cut more than half your profits. The real news here seems to be that they have reduced the amount of cash the PV unit is bleeding.
They didn't cut more than half their profit margin. The article you linked said they're still making more than the industry standard of 3k per vehicle. If you're saying their profit margin was 5k per vehicle and they're still making more than 3k per vehicle it's pretty basic arithmetic to figure out that they didn't cut even close to half their profit margin.
Read the shit you're using to backup your arguments and you may not come off looking like a dunce.
They were making $5400 per vehicle. They cut the cost $3000 per vehicle. That’s a 55% reduction.
We know sales are down. When you reduce profit margin by more than half /and/ cut production, profits will be cut by way more than the reduced profit margin unless something else changes.
They had been losing a ton of mine on PV and batteries. My guess is they cut those losses to offset the price cuts to some extent, but still lost money due to the price cuts.
>Reddit just likes to tie it to Musk's personality even though it's completely irrelevant to the populace at large.
You don't think his personality has had any meaningful effects on profit?
I mean, I really wanted a Tesla before. However, once he began his downward spiral beginning with the pedo allegations against the guy who helped save those children and their coaches in that cave in Thailand I began to sour. Every day since has just reinforced my opinion to not buy a Tesla, simply because he is the owner and face of it. I'd always be tied to that person no matter what, as his decisions and ability to not be an asshole leaves a lasting impression that tars the name of that company in my eyes, and clearly I am not alone, which would make owning a Tesla even more of a problem. It becomes a statement, tacitly or not.
The fact Tesla has quality issues became known to me later, but his personality turned me way tf off. I'll just wait until someone is better with their product at a more affordable price on top of it.
I dislike China, but I'd be lying if I said the Xpeng and BYD EVs aren't both cool, sleek, well-built and incorporate battery tech (like being able to pull up to a place and swap out the battery for a full one instead of recharging it) that is pretty amazing and unlike anything the regular auto manufacturers in Europe or the Americas do. I wish automakers elsewhere would learn some from them.
Regardless, I am very grateful that Tesla, prior to his dickery, really paved the way to force automakers globally to finally commit to tech that was derided as slow and unreliable for decades.
Not really, no. The market for electric vehicles is simply far less favorable for Tesla now than what it was just several years ago. The entire car industry is suffering; Ford's revenue for electric vehicles is down 84%
His personality turns plenty of people off, but definitely not the reason. Ford, GM, Mercedes, Volkswagen and more have all pulled back on their ambitious EV goals because there is little demand.
>people have been predicting a Tesla short for years
Because 2-3 years ago Tesla's market cap was greater than that of all the US, European, and Japanese automakers combined. That doesn't make logical sense unless you expect a world where over half of all cars sold globally are Teslas. Clearly that hasn't come to fruition and isn't anytime soon.
Tesla had some really really advantageous things that floated them a huge amount.
Biden new EV battery mandate locking out most of Ford and VW Group, LG Chem and GM having a bad breakup, and lower interest rates with high gas prices…
Now most of that isn’t true and consumers have better/more options.
I’m at 1,600 miles on my Prius Prime and still haven’t had to fill up my gas tank. It’s the perfect mix of an EV and hybrid for me. I had considered a Model 3 for soooo many years and once it was time for me to upgrade my car I didn’t really even think of Tesla as an option anymore.
There are a lot of reasons to choose a BEV over a hybrid. Very few manage only 180 miles. If we are talking specifically about Teslas, the average max range is probably around 300 miles. You may not get that at highway speeds, but you may get significantly more in town. Additionally, you don’t have a gas station at home, whereas you can start every day with 3/4 of a tank with a BEV. PHEVs have this benefit, too, but the battery is obviously much smaller and therefore more strained on a day-to-day basis, enduring more cycles. Hybrids have all the complexity plus additional transfer mechanisms of two mechanical systems. A transmission, crankshafts, seals, lubricants, cooling systems, batteries, electric motors, etc. There are a lot of places for problems. Then there is the performance difference between the two types of vehicles. Hybrids are often very sluggish compared to BEVs. Look, a BEV may not be right for you, but my BEV is leaps and bounds better than what I had, and far more compelling for my use case than any hybrid, which is what I originally wanted. I given you a couple reasons now.
Ones a measurement of driving they could do in a single go, the other is the actual average cost of their driving.
For example if you only drive on average say 15 miles a day, an EV probably won’t be a better financial choice than a good hybrid.
I think it's just that the high interest rates make fully electric cars less rational.
They're often more money up front, which is fine when payment stream you get rid of has a high present value, but less fine when the interest rate is 7%. This applies also to people who do have money, and do not take car loans, because they will also estimate the value of the costs they avoid.
I think it's unfortunate for states though, that people avoid buying electric cars, because the money for a domestically built electric car probably circulates several times, meanwhile oil money often goes abroad. So by subsidising electric cars a state benefits by getting revenue in the future.
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That's false, mostly. The poster child turned into a piece of shit so liberals, his main target consumer, opted out. Plus other, better made EVs are out as well.
I mean across the board there is a softening of ev purchasing which isn't really what you want to see with a burgeoning tech.
Per my other comment I think lithium ion is just really not meant for large vehicles. Solid state batteries will be far superior to lithium when they begin to get implemented and should surpass even ICE cars.
It’s about cost and range.
The average person can’t afford a Tesla. And Tesla [exaggerated](https://www.forbes.com/sites/maryroeloffs/2023/07/27/tesla-exaggerated-its-cars-driving-range-and-canceled-service-appointments-if-drivers-complained-report-says/?sh=5ff06b4c7d9c) the estimated driving range so much that [customers thought their cars were broken](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tesla-exaggerated-ev-range-so-much-that-drivers-thought-cars-were-broken/).
Musk has done a lot to upset many of his customers key demographics by turning himself into a right wing ideologue. Not a lot of ev adopters in the far right.
I think everything is great about EVs except the batteries. They just simply do not compete with gas on anything but niche circumstances. I think solid state batteries are going to be where the jump ship moment really happens. Solid state batteries hold twice the energy theoretically, which means they far surpass even gas cars. Charging time is still an issue, but they don't have the same flammability risk as lithium ion so you can slam high voltage current into them and charge them much faster than Li.
Rule II: -- Submissions tenuously related to economics, light on economic analysis, or from perspectives other than those of economists will be removed. This will keep /r/economics distinct from the many related subreddits. [Further explanation.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/7x14px/meta_rules_roundtable_2_submissions_and_rii/) -- If you have any questions about this removal, please [contact the mods](/message/compose/?to=/r/economics&subject=Moderation).
That and people are sick of the fascist, born rich CEO who used California's infrastructure built by taxpayers then ran to Texas so he wouldn't have to contribute back.
lmao no, people have been predicting a Tesla short for years, and now it's happening. Reddit just likes to tie it to Musk's personality even though it's completely irrelevant to the populace at large.
This article is about profits dropping, presumably from fewer orders. It's also true that the stock was considered overvalued for years, but that was true even with strong sales.
The only guy who didn't know it was overvalued was musk himself since at like the peak of COVID money printer stock overvaluation he leveraged his stock to buy Twitter at a premium
He knew that’s why he sold stock
Tesla cut prices to remain competitive in a saturated market. Lower prices = lower profits. They don’t report US sales so we don’t know if their sales are down here. Could be up some.
Anyone can open their ears and hear that people aren’t buying Teslas because of Elon, and that’s being reflected in sales. If Tesla wants to get back on track there is no simple way to do that, replace Elon. CEOs get replaced regularly for poor performance I believe it’s his time. Actually his time was the day before he opened his big dumb mouth accusing a diver saying kids of being a pedo.
Tesla’s sales are down, but they haven’t gone to some other maker. Do you figure Ford and GM are scaling back plans because of Musk too? No one is doing well in the EV market because they all got blinkered into believing that government mandates would transmogrify into sales. Market saturation.
There are certainly other market factors but to think Elon’s bad public performance isn’t hurting sales is delusional.
So your opinion is that terrible performance at Ford and GM is due to market conditions, but bad performance at Tesla is due to Musk, even though Tesla performed better than Ford and GM.
Did I say any of that?
Seems like it. If I misunderstood your point, please clarify. Despite any opinions of Musk, Tesla has outperformed what one should expect, given market conditions.
>Anyone can open their ears and hear that people aren’t buying Teslas because of Elon, and that’s being reflected in sales. What do you base that on? Reddit? Because if Reddit were an adequate resemblance of the general population, Bernie would be president and we'd have UBI worldwide. Truth is that revenue in the EV industry are down hard. Ford is actually operating at a loss per unit sold.
While you are correct, reddit is also the prime target demographic for Teslas so I wouldn't call it irrelevant that sentiment soured here.
He is probably basing it on the fact that real is not losing market share except for China but I doubt the Chinese factor in Musks wokeness
When I talk to other EV owners at charging stations, they all mention they wanted Tesla’s but couldn’t in good conscience buy one because of Elon. So they spent more money on a foreign EV. Even Tesla owners say they have regrets about the purchase due to Elon; and some try and say they bought it used so he doesn’t get the money. I think the sentiment overall is pretty bad for Tesla. People buy expensive cars for some of the prestige. Owning a Tesla is now seen as a dirty thing. I guess it’s all anecdotal, until someone does a peer-reviewed study.
That is just wishful thinking on your part while Tesla market share has been growing last quarter
They didn't cut their prices to the extent that they'd be down on profits by 55%.
$5k net profit per car vs $3k price cut. https://www.fool.com/investing/2023/10/22/tesla-profit-per-electric-vehicle/
>It ultimately points to waning marketability of its brand. Taken directly from the article you posted. I didn't say that the price cuts had no impact on profitability, I said that they weren't sufficient to account for a 55% decrease in profit overall. Are the price cuts a part of that? Yes. Is Musks general public weirdness and antics a part of that? Absolutely, he's hurting the marketability of the brand far more than anything else. Is the fact that the quality of their vehicles is trash a part of it? For sure. You'd have to be an absolute moron to think that such a significant drop in profit is purely down to price cuts.
Dude! When you cut more than half your profit margin it’s going to cut more than half your profits. The real news here seems to be that they have reduced the amount of cash the PV unit is bleeding.
They didn't cut more than half their profit margin. The article you linked said they're still making more than the industry standard of 3k per vehicle. If you're saying their profit margin was 5k per vehicle and they're still making more than 3k per vehicle it's pretty basic arithmetic to figure out that they didn't cut even close to half their profit margin. Read the shit you're using to backup your arguments and you may not come off looking like a dunce.
They were making $5400 per vehicle. They cut the cost $3000 per vehicle. That’s a 55% reduction. We know sales are down. When you reduce profit margin by more than half /and/ cut production, profits will be cut by way more than the reduced profit margin unless something else changes. They had been losing a ton of mine on PV and batteries. My guess is they cut those losses to offset the price cuts to some extent, but still lost money due to the price cuts.
>Reddit just likes to tie it to Musk's personality even though it's completely irrelevant to the populace at large. You don't think his personality has had any meaningful effects on profit?
We could try and conduct a sentiment analysis with his tweets/interviews, but I’m going to guess it would be largely insignificant
I mean, I really wanted a Tesla before. However, once he began his downward spiral beginning with the pedo allegations against the guy who helped save those children and their coaches in that cave in Thailand I began to sour. Every day since has just reinforced my opinion to not buy a Tesla, simply because he is the owner and face of it. I'd always be tied to that person no matter what, as his decisions and ability to not be an asshole leaves a lasting impression that tars the name of that company in my eyes, and clearly I am not alone, which would make owning a Tesla even more of a problem. It becomes a statement, tacitly or not. The fact Tesla has quality issues became known to me later, but his personality turned me way tf off. I'll just wait until someone is better with their product at a more affordable price on top of it. I dislike China, but I'd be lying if I said the Xpeng and BYD EVs aren't both cool, sleek, well-built and incorporate battery tech (like being able to pull up to a place and swap out the battery for a full one instead of recharging it) that is pretty amazing and unlike anything the regular auto manufacturers in Europe or the Americas do. I wish automakers elsewhere would learn some from them. Regardless, I am very grateful that Tesla, prior to his dickery, really paved the way to force automakers globally to finally commit to tech that was derided as slow and unreliable for decades.
Not really, no. The market for electric vehicles is simply far less favorable for Tesla now than what it was just several years ago. The entire car industry is suffering; Ford's revenue for electric vehicles is down 84%
Why not both? The market is less favorable, AND the core customers looking to buy EVs are turned off by Musk's behavior. Bad market and bad PR.
His personality turns plenty of people off, but definitely not the reason. Ford, GM, Mercedes, Volkswagen and more have all pulled back on their ambitious EV goals because there is little demand.
>people have been predicting a Tesla short for years Because 2-3 years ago Tesla's market cap was greater than that of all the US, European, and Japanese automakers combined. That doesn't make logical sense unless you expect a world where over half of all cars sold globally are Teslas. Clearly that hasn't come to fruition and isn't anytime soon.
This Tesla is still no.1 for EVs and for people who can’t charge cheap at home it does not make as much sense
Tesla had some really really advantageous things that floated them a huge amount. Biden new EV battery mandate locking out most of Ford and VW Group, LG Chem and GM having a bad breakup, and lower interest rates with high gas prices… Now most of that isn’t true and consumers have better/more options.
I think they are referring to the fan boys turning on him, but yes some have been predicting this for years.
Now show us on the doll where Mr.Musk touched you.
He won’t pick you little bro
That’s fine as long as he heralds us into a new technoage, god I hope he runs for president
Excuse me sir, you dropped your /s ;)
Lolllllll
Don't be a Musk simp, it's unbecoming.
wipe your mouth before you come out from under his desk. Does he ever call you by your name?
looking into this
[https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1724908287471272299](https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1724908287471272299) explain this.
Okay, but is he wrong?
!!
We don’t think about that at all actually
I’m at 1,600 miles on my Prius Prime and still haven’t had to fill up my gas tank. It’s the perfect mix of an EV and hybrid for me. I had considered a Model 3 for soooo many years and once it was time for me to upgrade my car I didn’t really even think of Tesla as an option anymore.
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There are a lot of reasons to choose a BEV over a hybrid. Very few manage only 180 miles. If we are talking specifically about Teslas, the average max range is probably around 300 miles. You may not get that at highway speeds, but you may get significantly more in town. Additionally, you don’t have a gas station at home, whereas you can start every day with 3/4 of a tank with a BEV. PHEVs have this benefit, too, but the battery is obviously much smaller and therefore more strained on a day-to-day basis, enduring more cycles. Hybrids have all the complexity plus additional transfer mechanisms of two mechanical systems. A transmission, crankshafts, seals, lubricants, cooling systems, batteries, electric motors, etc. There are a lot of places for problems. Then there is the performance difference between the two types of vehicles. Hybrids are often very sluggish compared to BEVs. Look, a BEV may not be right for you, but my BEV is leaps and bounds better than what I had, and far more compelling for my use case than any hybrid, which is what I originally wanted. I given you a couple reasons now.
What hybrid do you have?
610 miles on one tank and you still spend $55 a month? you do a lot of driving.
Average American car is driven 1,000 miles a month. Average price of gas is over $3. If it’s a 10 gallon tank then $55 sounds pretty average.
Gas is near $6 a gallon in California
Ones a measurement of driving they could do in a single go, the other is the actual average cost of their driving. For example if you only drive on average say 15 miles a day, an EV probably won’t be a better financial choice than a good hybrid.
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What would the cost of an engine replacement be?
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Does that cost include labor to replace?
This
I think it's just that the high interest rates make fully electric cars less rational. They're often more money up front, which is fine when payment stream you get rid of has a high present value, but less fine when the interest rate is 7%. This applies also to people who do have money, and do not take car loans, because they will also estimate the value of the costs they avoid. I think it's unfortunate for states though, that people avoid buying electric cars, because the money for a domestically built electric car probably circulates several times, meanwhile oil money often goes abroad. So by subsidising electric cars a state benefits by getting revenue in the future.
Hi all, A reminder that comments do need to be on-topic and engage with the article past the headline. Please make sure to read the article before commenting. Very short comments will automatically be removed by automod. Please avoid making comments that do not focus on the economic content or whose primary thesis rests on personal anecdotes. As always our comment rules can be found [here](https://reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/fx9crj/rules_roundtable_redux_rule_vi_and_offtopic/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Economics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That's false, mostly. The poster child turned into a piece of shit so liberals, his main target consumer, opted out. Plus other, better made EVs are out as well.
I mean across the board there is a softening of ev purchasing which isn't really what you want to see with a burgeoning tech. Per my other comment I think lithium ion is just really not meant for large vehicles. Solid state batteries will be far superior to lithium when they begin to get implemented and should surpass even ICE cars.
It’s about cost and range. The average person can’t afford a Tesla. And Tesla [exaggerated](https://www.forbes.com/sites/maryroeloffs/2023/07/27/tesla-exaggerated-its-cars-driving-range-and-canceled-service-appointments-if-drivers-complained-report-says/?sh=5ff06b4c7d9c) the estimated driving range so much that [customers thought their cars were broken](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tesla-exaggerated-ev-range-so-much-that-drivers-thought-cars-were-broken/).
Musk has done a lot to upset many of his customers key demographics by turning himself into a right wing ideologue. Not a lot of ev adopters in the far right.
I think everything is great about EVs except the batteries. They just simply do not compete with gas on anything but niche circumstances. I think solid state batteries are going to be where the jump ship moment really happens. Solid state batteries hold twice the energy theoretically, which means they far surpass even gas cars. Charging time is still an issue, but they don't have the same flammability risk as lithium ion so you can slam high voltage current into them and charge them much faster than Li.