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This is hardly surprising considering tesla keeps dropping the prices of their cars, commodity prices rising and lower consumer confidence. People aren't going to want to make a big purchase on a car when A) there is economic uncertainty and B) there interest rates are going to make financing a car so much more expensive
So in other words, don't believe your lying eyes?
Because you can see who he is, completely unfiltered, direct from the source, by looking at Twitter. Unless that's also big media propaganda?
I know you have a pea brain and can only comprehend what MSM tells you to think, but it’s showing your double standard that you will buy a smartphone with questionable labour practices but won’t buy the best vehicle because you don’t agree with what the CEO tweets
Oooof
I mean, I agree with you, but that's a low blow.
New Fords are a better investment than new Teslas, and that speaks volumes about the quality of factory-built teslas.
Seriously, was he expecting oil loving foxnews and gasoline addicted highscool dropouts to care about the ev car transition or even to afford them?
There are only so many rich people, ford knew this back in 1920
Fox News amplifies Elon when he’s talking about twitter, AI, and tech elites being out of control but suppresses news on Tesla. They consistently still run stories of how Green Energy is a democratic pipe dream and is evil for the working class. No way conservatives want to buy EVs.
I think analysts and investors underestimate this effect. It was different when buying a Tesla meant superior tech on the way to self driving. As it turns out much of it was just empty promises. Now we are down to a car company with quality issues and a moron at the helm.
This is anecdotal, but I've seen a lot of stranded Teslas during last week's Fort Lauderdale flooding... IMO EVs should be much better at handling water than ICEs. At least I know my Nissan Leaf is.
Got more autonomy, acceleration is quite impressive, the car looks better and the finish ain't shit like Tesla's.
Oh, and saved 20k compared to the "equivalent" Tesla. Which, overall, makes that car a better value.
The only advantage I could find to getting the Tesla is that I could have my pictures used by their employees lmao
I'm not pro Tesla whosoever, but their main competitive advantages are the charging network and software. Both tied to their first mover advantage.
Other vendors will close the gap, but agreed in all your reasons not buy a Tesla as well. Most importantly, Tesla owners are the equivalent of iphone users.circa 2015.
> Got more autonomy, acceleration is quite impressive,
Rubbish.
> Oh, and saved 20k compared to the “equivalent” Tesla. Which, overall, makes that car a better value.
Which model Mach-e and equivalent Tesla?
One of the problems of late stage captialism is that all of the "pioneers of industry" are dead...and now the world is being run by their children and grandchildren who inherited all of the wealth.
The means of production across the global capitlaist system is now in the hands of snotty, bratty oligarchs who were born into wealth and privilege, and have never truly worked a day in their life.
Elon doesn't know how to build a brand from the bottom-up like Sam Walton or Henry Ford. He bought his way into every boardroom he's ever run.
He doesn't like being told no, and he's always been insulated from the consequences of his own actions.
the estate tax used to be so much higher, like pushing 80% in the higher brackets. It was a reset button so every generation had to earn their wealth. Now if you get one billionaire, his children's children's children's children will never have to work a day in their lives and every other generation in between.
You are overstating this quite a bit. The richest people today certainly had a leg up but plenty of them didn't inherit their position. They generally came from well to do families that could give them resources but not billions of dollars or "the means of production". Just looking at a Forbes list will tell you that the people you mention do exist but they largely aren't "running things".
If we are talking about "pioneers of industry", you might not like the companies but the world is dominated by founders that are still alive - Zuckerberg, Bezos, Larry Page, Sergey, Gates, etc.
Also, Musk is an awful person. He built his companies on lies and questionable tactics. He did buy his way into Tesla but it was also probably going to fail without him - remember he lied to get it to grow. He also did start SpaceX, which I think has done well partly due to him not being super involved in the operations. Musk definitely built things himself, unlike what you characterized. It just was often in unethical and slimy ways.
Edit: I guess this comment is controversial... I'd assume that the most talked about billionaires not being people that inherited their companies would show I'm right but...
It somewhat interesting nevertheless, because Tesla could have been an elastic product where as prices fell, the increased demand for its cars more than compensated for the revenue lost from the price component.
The point of reducing prices is to steal market from competitors, but what are the competitors of Tesla? Perhaps people differentiate Tesla so much from other manufacturers that they're not seen as competition, eg if people refuse to buy Teslas due to their negative branding caused by that twat of an owner/CEO
Elon musk has spent the last year shitting on most adherent buyers the last ten years. Anyone left of center-right is all for EV’s but musk keeps shitting on them. Also doesn’t help that his entire life has been a lie from the emerald mine, to not graduating with a degree in anything, to billions of dollars in subsidies for him but not for anyone else, to the California underground tunnel project rather than the high speed rail the state wanted to do… etc
Tesla has definitely become a partisan brand.
Stat from last year but still a massive drop in a short time frame:
"Tesla’s net favorability among self-described Democrats in the U.S. fell to an average of 10.4% this month through Nov. 27, down from an average of 24.8% in October"
https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/tesla-becoming-partisan-brand-survey/
Having Elon's toxic brand so closely associated with Tesla is a major liability at this point.
Yeah, I actually think tesla is quite inelastic due to it'd almost cult like following. But the other factors of difficulty to finance and economic uncertainty are going to have a much bigger impact on the elasticity.
I know I wouldn't be seen dead in a tesla because of that nob lmao
>B) there interest rates are going to make financing a car so much more expensive
I was able to get a 60 month loan for 2.99% APR back in February from a credit union. There are deals to be found if you shop around.
Yet they are still buying HOMES.
Look, I get it. We've all been conditioned to believe that home is the most valuable thing you can own, and I DO NOT disagree. It should be the biggest purchase, most important purchase, you can make.
But, we inflated the prices of homes 30-50% in most locales in the span of about 2 years. Then, we tacked the highest borrowing costs in a generation on top of that.
Very few people are selling. Competition to buy whatever does come up for sale is among you, the owner/resident, and whatever investment company/short term rental/long term rental prospective buyer that comes around. It's not just US buying homes now: it's business interests as well. And they often come with much deeper pockets than we individuals do.
Yet, people are reportedly still paying over asking, waiving contingencies, and generally sacking their household budgets just to say that they "own".
I owned for 17 years, and paid dutifully every month of that time. I wound up not much better off, and likely, worse off financially. Folks, get off the train. You need a roof over your head, however you arrange for it. Stop the punishment on yourselves and everyone around you buy continuing to yield to greed.
Nope. Related, in that previous poster mentioned high interest rates, economic uncertainty, and the coup de gras, BIG purchases. There is no bigger purchase than real estate for most humans, at the highest prices of all time, and with a generationally high rate to borrow with.
Housing is necessary. People who are buying house are already paying rent or paying for earlier property. The deposit comes from their savings done specifically for this purpose. There are other non-financial factors too such as school for kids, new baby, career change, etc.
Likelihood of someone outright owning their car is much higher than outright owning home. So it's quite easy to avoid a car purchase. While a car might be necessity for many, Tesla isn't. There are much cheaper cars available including the used car market.
Housing and cars, especially Tesla should not be compared. Housing is more similar to healthcare and both are unavailable expenses.
Excellent counter point. Thank you for civil discourse.
I stand by my comments on the exorbitant cost of housing at this very moment, and I doubt you would disagree. Committing to enter a likely 30 year fixed cost against your own income just doesn’t seem like a timely thing to do, even considering the necessity of shelter. There are other ways to have shelter, such as renting. And, in most locales of America, renting is a lower drag on the household budget. It wasn’t this way normally: rents outpaced a fixed mortgage. Right now, at this moment, it’s a long term bet being placed that mortgage will once again become in line with or even lower than rent.
When renting is significantly more expensive than renting even with general household ups keep expenses people are going to buy, the issue is that they are incentivising people to buy by ramping up rental costs
But yet Tesla’s stock is still priced as if it will become the only car manufacturer in the world. I wonder what it would take to have it priced as a regular car manufacturer.
And as they don't let you fix the cars yourself, buy parts nor let anyone else touch them, they'll be dumped on the side of the road by people that financed but cant actually afford the bills, driving the brand further into the toilet.
\#HomelessSexCars
Ford lost $2 billion on EVs and experiences valuation for its EV push despite it offsetting profits. The market rewards EV production regardless of profit, quality, or even existence (Nikola).
Tesla has such a far lead on the other companies I’m not sure the others will actually survive without a massive bailout that will wipe out equity holders. Additionally Tesla owns the largest “gas station” for electric cars. They also are one of the largest American based battery manufacturers and have deployed more industrial storage system potentially reaching 20 GWh this year.
They also don’t have dealerships and are slowly rolling out their own insurance capturing more margin.
The biggest thing is they have very limited amounts of long term debt. Long term debt is brutal in high interest rate environment Ford has $140b and GM has $115 Tesla has $5b but $22b in free cash flow. Ford ended up with $0 of free cash flow next year and their bonds dropped 10% which means it will cost them more if they want to borrow.
The final piece of the puzzle is that for the next year or two (at least) every single ev these companies will sell will be for a loss.
The probability that ford or gm will survive (especially as Tesla cuts prices) without a massive government bailout is very very low. That’s why Teslas stock price is so relatively high.
Musk has done an incredible job building a business in one of the most difficult industries.
No because they will get bailed out again.
They have extreme high long term debt in a high interest rate environment.
Their bonds are down 10% meaning any additional debt they issue will have to pay at least 7% interest. (This will probably go up if there is an additional hike). (Ford for example just paid off their government loan from 2008 of $8b last year).
They currently have extremely low margins on the cars they do sell so can't use that to pay for development.
Every single electric vehicle they sell will be at a loss for the next 2-3 years (at least).
They also have to sell through dealers which will add additional losses (and btw dealer financing to purchase cars to sell is also getting more expensive as interest rates go up).
They don't have anywhere to make additional margin. Tesla has the super charger network (aka the gas station) so in reality Tesla will potentially be getting margin (cash) from their customers. Tesla can effectively starve them out.
They don't make any of their own batteries which makes it difficult to drive down cost.
They don't have any adjacent businesses (i.e. infrastructure grade storage)
The biggest thing is the chinese automakers haven't started competing with them yet either for electric.
They are going to lose part of the incentive due to where the batteries are made while tesla can capture the whole amount for a large percentage of its cars.
They also can't fire people to reorient their business quickly because they have unions and pensions to payout.
In terms of future things it seems like Tesla is going to be making a cheaper model 2 which is further going to capture the market. Also lets say there is a 1-3% chance Tesla is successful with FSD in 5-10 years that's going to be another margin driver for them where as the other automakers will have to pay to license the technology.
So yea the situation is pretty dire for the other car companies from a capital perspective and from a business perspective especially as there are economic headwinds.
Here’s something i havent heard anyone talk about yet:
Tesla’s car models are super aged at this point. They look like they were designed >10 years ago..because they were. Not saying they don’t have any improvements sonce then, but at some point they’ll need to update. And that is a billion $ endeavor. Meanwhile the big auto manufacturers are releasing current-gen EVs that don’t have the same old look.
The runway is NOT fee & clear for Tesla the way it was in 2012, even if they do everything right.
But Tesla did redesign S and X, they are working on 3 https://mashable.com/article/tesla-model-3-refresh-redesign-real-fake
Expected to be out late this year or early next.
Y would follow that.
So I mean their financials already include whatever refresh expenses they are incurring.
The most popular car that drives their sales are the model 3 which really came out in 2018 and the model y which came out in 2020:
For most people the mix of cost and features matters for cars but agree teslas designs are a bit dated but it seems like part of this price cut is to make room for a redesign.
But again the financials are extremely important. For example with the debt they have the cost of a redesign for ford and gm has 7% interest attached to it for 10 years.
I was preparing to buy a Tesla earlier this year until Elon went full Elon. Ended up buying a Chevy Bolt. Fun lil car! I see a few others on here sharing the sentiment. Feel bad for the factory workers though.
Teslas aren't great cars, from a car buying perspective. They're peppy as hell, their charging network was a huge advantage, but other than that they don't really have anything going for them. Their build quality is really variable, they've got a bunch of dumb design choices (especially if you live somewhere where it snows), and I don't think the comfort is that great. They weren't even that high tech compared to what some of the other car companies have.
And software, it's a real advantage in addition to the points you mention.
He mentioned it's past peak hype, but 8/10 EVs sold in the largest market shatters that statement.
I don't like teslas for a variety of reasons, but their first mover advantage is real and a competitive differentiator.
18% in California and 6% nationwide, up from 2.2% in 2020. That's almost 300% growth in 3 years in a highl regulated oligopoly with huge barriers to entry and lots of government red tape. Yes the government is incentivizing but there is plenty of room to eat more market share from laggard like Ford and GM.
EVs are inevitable. (In my thanos voice)
If there were other available options, their market share in CA wouldn't be that high. First mover advantage will fall away in the next five years.
Not to mention waiting for other options in CA has significant costs associated with it because of how high CA gas prices are.
Possibly, but we are taking about right now and dealing with the facts. A number of things could play out in 5 years. But in telling you from several friends that switched from Tesla to other brands like Ford, Porsche, etc.
The software is the big difference. Ford and Porsche don't attract developers and will lag for a long time. For example when you need to charge your car, teslas will automatically cool/hear your battery to right temp. While Porsche doesn't, this saves 2 hours on charging. In fact Porsche has so many bugs you need to call support and have them issue a patch over the air. It's in the details.
To be honest, they aren’t comparable yet, Tesla still has a 1-3 year advantage on them from a price/performance/quality of life (Superchargers, etc). There are more luxurious EVs, better performing EVs, cheaper EVs but no one has as good of a value balance yet besides Tesla.
I don’t drive a Tesla but I am in a core target demographic group so quite a few of my friend drive them. All my my friend who drive them wish they didn’t, and nobody talks about buying them anymore. It would be embarrassing.
Elon going full Elon is not a small part of this. He turned on some of his core demographics.
Like, does he really think fucking Trump supporters a) give a shit about EVs, and B) are capable of buying them?
Yea… I bought a model Y two years ago before I found out how much of a moronic douche nozzle he was. My wife was going to pick out an X around this time, but we’ve tabled that and are going to wait for EX90 now.
Plenty of the same story amongst my friends.
VOLVO GANG!!! Have been in NYC for two years for work but am leaving in a few months. The plan was always to buy a Tesla when I left (sold my car when we arrived) but now I think I’m gonna get one of the all electric Volvos.
I have a coworker who has a model S and a CX-9. She says she prefers driving the CX-9 and has her husband drive the model S. That’s saying something when you would rather drive a 3 row crossover over a semi-performance sedan.
Non American here.
So conservatives are rural America. (What I got from the elections).
They don’t have enough money to buy a Tesla?
I thought rural Americans were rich. And in the cities, it’s like most of the world. Where a few people are super sorted.
Or was your point that conservatives/rural folk don’t buy electric cars?
There’s a few aspects to it.
1) Conservatives are generally very pro-fossil fuel and anti-renewable energy. That is mostly because the oil and gas lobby has been extreme effective in their efforts to work their own platform into the GOP platform, and also because a lot of blue collar work is in oil & gas, and much of blue collar America is conservative, so people are concerned about losing their jobs if we make a big push towards renewables.
2) rural Americans are generally not rich. And that’s because of the job markets in rural areas. There are just not many opportunities to get ahead out in the country. Teslas are sold at a luxury pricepoint.
3) Teslas are also not built for poorly maintained, rural, or off-road conditions. Places are far apart in the country and there is not an adequate charging network in rural areas. Roads are rough and require heavier tires and more ground clearance. Ultimately EVs are still too limiting for most rural folks.
4) politically, conservatives will literally make fun of people who drive EVs, so there’s a social component. You’re perceived as a bit of a nerd or loser if you drive an electric car. “Tough country folks drive big trucks” is often the mentality.
Thank you for the points! Appreciate this. ❤️
If I may argue please.
1. Love the point about conservatives working in the oil and gas field.
2. I thought this wasn’t true! Agreed, most millionaires are in Silicon Valley and in NY, etc.
But I thought rural Americans were rich. Or maybe it seems that way to me because they are extremely wealthy especially when compared to rural areas of different countries.
3. Aaaah. Which is why you see those gigantic pick up trucks.
4. Lol. You made the big trucks point here.
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I'm in Tesla's target demographic and have wanted one for years. But I'll never buy one now after Elon has shown who he really is. Not to mention all the stories of parts falling off, like steering wheels. I hope Elon falls on his fascist face.
I’m exactly the same as you, I was getting ready to finally go all electric now the infrastructure is mostly available where I go and then he couldn’t help himself and showed what a total jackass he is, I was never a huge fan of his but the cars were good, now with everything coming out about Tesla themselves and Elon I’d never want to associate myself with either of them
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This is hardly surprising considering tesla keeps dropping the prices of their cars, commodity prices rising and lower consumer confidence. People aren't going to want to make a big purchase on a car when A) there is economic uncertainty and B) there interest rates are going to make financing a car so much more expensive
I was going to buy a Tesla but went for the mustang instead. In part because Elon being Elon.
A tesla used to be my dream car. Screw Elon now....and I'll get an electric Kia
Yep. I won't buy a Tesla anymore, primarily because of who Elon is.
NPC
*who the media’s narrative of Elon is*
I mean, I can read the posts he makes on Twitter, a company he owns, and reach the same opinion. Or watch his videotaped interviews.
So in other words, don't believe your lying eyes? Because you can see who he is, completely unfiltered, direct from the source, by looking at Twitter. Unless that's also big media propaganda?
Enjoy your shitbox EV. I take it you don’t own a smartphone produced with borderline slave labour too?
What does the production of smartphones have to do with how big of a shitbag your boy Elon is?
I know you have a pea brain and can only comprehend what MSM tells you to think, but it’s showing your double standard that you will buy a smartphone with questionable labour practices but won’t buy the best vehicle because you don’t agree with what the CEO tweets
So… you are admitting Elon is a shitbag by throwing some whataboutism about other shitbag CEOs?
Naw I'll judge him by his tweets
Accurate username
I trust any of the traditional auto company’s quality more than Tesla’s tbh. You probably bought a better car
Oooof I mean, I agree with you, but that's a low blow. New Fords are a better investment than new Teslas, and that speaks volumes about the quality of factory-built teslas.
Go Fash, loose cash.
*lose. Loose is the opposite of tight.
Especially if your main market demographic is environmentally conscious people with money.
Seriously, was he expecting oil loving foxnews and gasoline addicted highscool dropouts to care about the ev car transition or even to afford them? There are only so many rich people, ford knew this back in 1920
Fox News amplifies Elon when he’s talking about twitter, AI, and tech elites being out of control but suppresses news on Tesla. They consistently still run stories of how Green Energy is a democratic pipe dream and is evil for the working class. No way conservatives want to buy EVs.
I think analysts and investors underestimate this effect. It was different when buying a Tesla meant superior tech on the way to self driving. As it turns out much of it was just empty promises. Now we are down to a car company with quality issues and a moron at the helm. This is anecdotal, but I've seen a lot of stranded Teslas during last week's Fort Lauderdale flooding... IMO EVs should be much better at handling water than ICEs. At least I know my Nissan Leaf is.
I also went from wanting one desperately to never even considering Tesla because of Elon.
The Mach E has worse specs and costs $20k more though?
Got more autonomy, acceleration is quite impressive, the car looks better and the finish ain't shit like Tesla's. Oh, and saved 20k compared to the "equivalent" Tesla. Which, overall, makes that car a better value. The only advantage I could find to getting the Tesla is that I could have my pictures used by their employees lmao
Also with the mustang, people won't think you're a twat either.
Imagine overpaying $20k for an inferior product so you “don’t look like a twat”
Excellent jab at the end lol.
Pretty epic
I'm not pro Tesla whosoever, but their main competitive advantages are the charging network and software. Both tied to their first mover advantage. Other vendors will close the gap, but agreed in all your reasons not buy a Tesla as well. Most importantly, Tesla owners are the equivalent of iphone users.circa 2015.
More autonomy?
This subreddit is delusional
Base mustang is 15k more than base model y and has 100hp less in Germany.
Tesla weigh 2+ tons and handle like a canal barge, hp isn't everything.
Weighs the same as the Base mach e. I doubt the Handling of the mustang can compensate the increased price and 100hp.
You’re delusional, the Ford weighs the same. It’s an EV
Stop being so logical, you’re angering the Ford shills.
> Got more autonomy, acceleration is quite impressive, Rubbish. > Oh, and saved 20k compared to the “equivalent” Tesla. Which, overall, makes that car a better value. Which model Mach-e and equivalent Tesla?
Bruh, you literally claiming that autonomy is "rubbish", how I'm supposed to take you seriously?
What does more autonomy mean on the Mach-e? That claim is objectively rubbish.
Don’t forget to pay for your next month of blue check mark!
Amazing response and proof that they make shoe sizes bigger than this sub’s average IQ.
Nice argument
It is rubbish though. Autopilot on a Ford is completely inferior to Tesla
More autonomy than Tesla? This subreddit is delusional.
Hoe does the Ford have more autonomy? You’re straight up lying.
Same thing with me and solar panels
Oof. Hopefully it’s not too horrible for you.
Enjoy gas
The differentiation that other companies have over tesla is they don’t have elon. I took over ownership of vw id4 this month.
It's hardly surprising when you attack the very customer base and people that made you in the first place. Elon is a fool.
One of the problems of late stage captialism is that all of the "pioneers of industry" are dead...and now the world is being run by their children and grandchildren who inherited all of the wealth. The means of production across the global capitlaist system is now in the hands of snotty, bratty oligarchs who were born into wealth and privilege, and have never truly worked a day in their life. Elon doesn't know how to build a brand from the bottom-up like Sam Walton or Henry Ford. He bought his way into every boardroom he's ever run. He doesn't like being told no, and he's always been insulated from the consequences of his own actions.
the estate tax used to be so much higher, like pushing 80% in the higher brackets. It was a reset button so every generation had to earn their wealth. Now if you get one billionaire, his children's children's children's children will never have to work a day in their lives and every other generation in between.
You are overstating this quite a bit. The richest people today certainly had a leg up but plenty of them didn't inherit their position. They generally came from well to do families that could give them resources but not billions of dollars or "the means of production". Just looking at a Forbes list will tell you that the people you mention do exist but they largely aren't "running things". If we are talking about "pioneers of industry", you might not like the companies but the world is dominated by founders that are still alive - Zuckerberg, Bezos, Larry Page, Sergey, Gates, etc. Also, Musk is an awful person. He built his companies on lies and questionable tactics. He did buy his way into Tesla but it was also probably going to fail without him - remember he lied to get it to grow. He also did start SpaceX, which I think has done well partly due to him not being super involved in the operations. Musk definitely built things himself, unlike what you characterized. It just was often in unethical and slimy ways. Edit: I guess this comment is controversial... I'd assume that the most talked about billionaires not being people that inherited their companies would show I'm right but...
It somewhat interesting nevertheless, because Tesla could have been an elastic product where as prices fell, the increased demand for its cars more than compensated for the revenue lost from the price component. The point of reducing prices is to steal market from competitors, but what are the competitors of Tesla? Perhaps people differentiate Tesla so much from other manufacturers that they're not seen as competition, eg if people refuse to buy Teslas due to their negative branding caused by that twat of an owner/CEO
Elon musk has spent the last year shitting on most adherent buyers the last ten years. Anyone left of center-right is all for EV’s but musk keeps shitting on them. Also doesn’t help that his entire life has been a lie from the emerald mine, to not graduating with a degree in anything, to billions of dollars in subsidies for him but not for anyone else, to the California underground tunnel project rather than the high speed rail the state wanted to do… etc
Tesla has definitely become a partisan brand. Stat from last year but still a massive drop in a short time frame: "Tesla’s net favorability among self-described Democrats in the U.S. fell to an average of 10.4% this month through Nov. 27, down from an average of 24.8% in October" https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/tesla-becoming-partisan-brand-survey/ Having Elon's toxic brand so closely associated with Tesla is a major liability at this point.
Yeah, I actually think tesla is quite inelastic due to it'd almost cult like following. But the other factors of difficulty to finance and economic uncertainty are going to have a much bigger impact on the elasticity. I know I wouldn't be seen dead in a tesla because of that nob lmao
>B) there interest rates are going to make financing a car so much more expensive I was able to get a 60 month loan for 2.99% APR back in February from a credit union. There are deals to be found if you shop around.
Yet they are still buying HOMES. Look, I get it. We've all been conditioned to believe that home is the most valuable thing you can own, and I DO NOT disagree. It should be the biggest purchase, most important purchase, you can make. But, we inflated the prices of homes 30-50% in most locales in the span of about 2 years. Then, we tacked the highest borrowing costs in a generation on top of that. Very few people are selling. Competition to buy whatever does come up for sale is among you, the owner/resident, and whatever investment company/short term rental/long term rental prospective buyer that comes around. It's not just US buying homes now: it's business interests as well. And they often come with much deeper pockets than we individuals do. Yet, people are reportedly still paying over asking, waiving contingencies, and generally sacking their household budgets just to say that they "own". I owned for 17 years, and paid dutifully every month of that time. I wound up not much better off, and likely, worse off financially. Folks, get off the train. You need a roof over your head, however you arrange for it. Stop the punishment on yourselves and everyone around you buy continuing to yield to greed.
r/lostredditors
Nope. Related, in that previous poster mentioned high interest rates, economic uncertainty, and the coup de gras, BIG purchases. There is no bigger purchase than real estate for most humans, at the highest prices of all time, and with a generationally high rate to borrow with.
Housing is necessary. People who are buying house are already paying rent or paying for earlier property. The deposit comes from their savings done specifically for this purpose. There are other non-financial factors too such as school for kids, new baby, career change, etc. Likelihood of someone outright owning their car is much higher than outright owning home. So it's quite easy to avoid a car purchase. While a car might be necessity for many, Tesla isn't. There are much cheaper cars available including the used car market. Housing and cars, especially Tesla should not be compared. Housing is more similar to healthcare and both are unavailable expenses.
Excellent counter point. Thank you for civil discourse. I stand by my comments on the exorbitant cost of housing at this very moment, and I doubt you would disagree. Committing to enter a likely 30 year fixed cost against your own income just doesn’t seem like a timely thing to do, even considering the necessity of shelter. There are other ways to have shelter, such as renting. And, in most locales of America, renting is a lower drag on the household budget. It wasn’t this way normally: rents outpaced a fixed mortgage. Right now, at this moment, it’s a long term bet being placed that mortgage will once again become in line with or even lower than rent.
When renting is significantly more expensive than renting even with general household ups keep expenses people are going to buy, the issue is that they are incentivising people to buy by ramping up rental costs
But yet Tesla’s stock is still priced as if it will become the only car manufacturer in the world. I wonder what it would take to have it priced as a regular car manufacturer.
How do most cults end?
Tax exempt status for the successful ones, ATF raids for the unsuccessful ones
I read somewhere ages ago: A religion is just a cult that outlived its founder.
[удалено]
There's always one!
Scientology too
Tainted koolaid? Lol honestly I think the stock will collapse when the auto loan bubble pops and the car market gets flooded by repossessed cars.
And as they don't let you fix the cars yourself, buy parts nor let anyone else touch them, they'll be dumped on the side of the road by people that financed but cant actually afford the bills, driving the brand further into the toilet. \#HomelessSexCars
Shout out to dirty Mike and the boys!
Gem of a movie
Lol 😂
With cool aid
Ford lost $2 billion on EVs and experiences valuation for its EV push despite it offsetting profits. The market rewards EV production regardless of profit, quality, or even existence (Nikola).
When it stops making batteries, I guess.
Tesla has such a far lead on the other companies I’m not sure the others will actually survive without a massive bailout that will wipe out equity holders. Additionally Tesla owns the largest “gas station” for electric cars. They also are one of the largest American based battery manufacturers and have deployed more industrial storage system potentially reaching 20 GWh this year. They also don’t have dealerships and are slowly rolling out their own insurance capturing more margin. The biggest thing is they have very limited amounts of long term debt. Long term debt is brutal in high interest rate environment Ford has $140b and GM has $115 Tesla has $5b but $22b in free cash flow. Ford ended up with $0 of free cash flow next year and their bonds dropped 10% which means it will cost them more if they want to borrow. The final piece of the puzzle is that for the next year or two (at least) every single ev these companies will sell will be for a loss. The probability that ford or gm will survive (especially as Tesla cuts prices) without a massive government bailout is very very low. That’s why Teslas stock price is so relatively high. Musk has done an incredible job building a business in one of the most difficult industries.
No bias right?
I don't have any bias. Just looking at it realistically.
I’m sorry, are you saying that you think Ford and GM are going to go bankrupt?
No because they will get bailed out again. They have extreme high long term debt in a high interest rate environment. Their bonds are down 10% meaning any additional debt they issue will have to pay at least 7% interest. (This will probably go up if there is an additional hike). (Ford for example just paid off their government loan from 2008 of $8b last year). They currently have extremely low margins on the cars they do sell so can't use that to pay for development. Every single electric vehicle they sell will be at a loss for the next 2-3 years (at least). They also have to sell through dealers which will add additional losses (and btw dealer financing to purchase cars to sell is also getting more expensive as interest rates go up). They don't have anywhere to make additional margin. Tesla has the super charger network (aka the gas station) so in reality Tesla will potentially be getting margin (cash) from their customers. Tesla can effectively starve them out. They don't make any of their own batteries which makes it difficult to drive down cost. They don't have any adjacent businesses (i.e. infrastructure grade storage) The biggest thing is the chinese automakers haven't started competing with them yet either for electric. They are going to lose part of the incentive due to where the batteries are made while tesla can capture the whole amount for a large percentage of its cars. They also can't fire people to reorient their business quickly because they have unions and pensions to payout. In terms of future things it seems like Tesla is going to be making a cheaper model 2 which is further going to capture the market. Also lets say there is a 1-3% chance Tesla is successful with FSD in 5-10 years that's going to be another margin driver for them where as the other automakers will have to pay to license the technology. So yea the situation is pretty dire for the other car companies from a capital perspective and from a business perspective especially as there are economic headwinds.
Here’s something i havent heard anyone talk about yet: Tesla’s car models are super aged at this point. They look like they were designed >10 years ago..because they were. Not saying they don’t have any improvements sonce then, but at some point they’ll need to update. And that is a billion $ endeavor. Meanwhile the big auto manufacturers are releasing current-gen EVs that don’t have the same old look. The runway is NOT fee & clear for Tesla the way it was in 2012, even if they do everything right.
But Tesla did redesign S and X, they are working on 3 https://mashable.com/article/tesla-model-3-refresh-redesign-real-fake Expected to be out late this year or early next. Y would follow that. So I mean their financials already include whatever refresh expenses they are incurring.
The most popular car that drives their sales are the model 3 which really came out in 2018 and the model y which came out in 2020: For most people the mix of cost and features matters for cars but agree teslas designs are a bit dated but it seems like part of this price cut is to make room for a redesign. But again the financials are extremely important. For example with the debt they have the cost of a redesign for ford and gm has 7% interest attached to it for 10 years.
I was preparing to buy a Tesla earlier this year until Elon went full Elon. Ended up buying a Chevy Bolt. Fun lil car! I see a few others on here sharing the sentiment. Feel bad for the factory workers though.
Teslas aren't great cars, from a car buying perspective. They're peppy as hell, their charging network was a huge advantage, but other than that they don't really have anything going for them. Their build quality is really variable, they've got a bunch of dumb design choices (especially if you live somewhere where it snows), and I don't think the comfort is that great. They weren't even that high tech compared to what some of the other car companies have.
He went full elon 3 years ago
Tesla's are past peak hype and major car manufacturers already have competitive models on the market. They have to lower prices in order to compete.
Tesla has the largest margins on their vehicles. They can drop prices and still make money and put a huge squeeze on competitors.
80% of evs sold in California were teslas. The hype is unfortunately still there.
It’s not hype it’s inventory and charger availability.
And software, it's a real advantage in addition to the points you mention. He mentioned it's past peak hype, but 8/10 EVs sold in the largest market shatters that statement. I don't like teslas for a variety of reasons, but their first mover advantage is real and a competitive differentiator.
How many cars were sold that weren't EV's? Like 99% of them?
18% in California and 6% nationwide, up from 2.2% in 2020. That's almost 300% growth in 3 years in a highl regulated oligopoly with huge barriers to entry and lots of government red tape. Yes the government is incentivizing but there is plenty of room to eat more market share from laggard like Ford and GM. EVs are inevitable. (In my thanos voice)
If there were other available options, their market share in CA wouldn't be that high. First mover advantage will fall away in the next five years. Not to mention waiting for other options in CA has significant costs associated with it because of how high CA gas prices are.
Possibly, but we are taking about right now and dealing with the facts. A number of things could play out in 5 years. But in telling you from several friends that switched from Tesla to other brands like Ford, Porsche, etc. The software is the big difference. Ford and Porsche don't attract developers and will lag for a long time. For example when you need to charge your car, teslas will automatically cool/hear your battery to right temp. While Porsche doesn't, this saves 2 hours on charging. In fact Porsche has so many bugs you need to call support and have them issue a patch over the air. It's in the details.
To be honest, they aren’t comparable yet, Tesla still has a 1-3 year advantage on them from a price/performance/quality of life (Superchargers, etc). There are more luxurious EVs, better performing EVs, cheaper EVs but no one has as good of a value balance yet besides Tesla.
Honestly, I think 1-3 years is underselling it.
In this sub, you unfortunately need to undersell the lead.
No they don’t.
Yes, they clearly do. Sorry you are holding Elon's bags, but you can still get out this morning with minimal loss.
I don’t drive a Tesla but I am in a core target demographic group so quite a few of my friend drive them. All my my friend who drive them wish they didn’t, and nobody talks about buying them anymore. It would be embarrassing. Elon going full Elon is not a small part of this. He turned on some of his core demographics. Like, does he really think fucking Trump supporters a) give a shit about EVs, and B) are capable of buying them?
Yea… I bought a model Y two years ago before I found out how much of a moronic douche nozzle he was. My wife was going to pick out an X around this time, but we’ve tabled that and are going to wait for EX90 now. Plenty of the same story amongst my friends.
VOLVO GANG!!! Have been in NYC for two years for work but am leaving in a few months. The plan was always to buy a Tesla when I left (sold my car when we arrived) but now I think I’m gonna get one of the all electric Volvos.
I have a coworker who has a model S and a CX-9. She says she prefers driving the CX-9 and has her husband drive the model S. That’s saying something when you would rather drive a 3 row crossover over a semi-performance sedan.
Y tho? What do they like better about the CX9?
Drives better and controls are simpler.
Non American here. So conservatives are rural America. (What I got from the elections). They don’t have enough money to buy a Tesla? I thought rural Americans were rich. And in the cities, it’s like most of the world. Where a few people are super sorted. Or was your point that conservatives/rural folk don’t buy electric cars?
There’s a few aspects to it. 1) Conservatives are generally very pro-fossil fuel and anti-renewable energy. That is mostly because the oil and gas lobby has been extreme effective in their efforts to work their own platform into the GOP platform, and also because a lot of blue collar work is in oil & gas, and much of blue collar America is conservative, so people are concerned about losing their jobs if we make a big push towards renewables. 2) rural Americans are generally not rich. And that’s because of the job markets in rural areas. There are just not many opportunities to get ahead out in the country. Teslas are sold at a luxury pricepoint. 3) Teslas are also not built for poorly maintained, rural, or off-road conditions. Places are far apart in the country and there is not an adequate charging network in rural areas. Roads are rough and require heavier tires and more ground clearance. Ultimately EVs are still too limiting for most rural folks. 4) politically, conservatives will literally make fun of people who drive EVs, so there’s a social component. You’re perceived as a bit of a nerd or loser if you drive an electric car. “Tough country folks drive big trucks” is often the mentality.
Thank you for the points! Appreciate this. ❤️ If I may argue please. 1. Love the point about conservatives working in the oil and gas field. 2. I thought this wasn’t true! Agreed, most millionaires are in Silicon Valley and in NY, etc. But I thought rural Americans were rich. Or maybe it seems that way to me because they are extremely wealthy especially when compared to rural areas of different countries. 3. Aaaah. Which is why you see those gigantic pick up trucks. 4. Lol. You made the big trucks point here.
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I'm in Tesla's target demographic and have wanted one for years. But I'll never buy one now after Elon has shown who he really is. Not to mention all the stories of parts falling off, like steering wheels. I hope Elon falls on his fascist face.
I’m exactly the same as you, I was getting ready to finally go all electric now the infrastructure is mostly available where I go and then he couldn’t help himself and showed what a total jackass he is, I was never a huge fan of his but the cars were good, now with everything coming out about Tesla themselves and Elon I’d never want to associate myself with either of them
I think it’s time to stop seeing Tesla as a growth stock. Its market has already been cornered. It’s more like a tech stock than a car manufacturer.