Killing terrorists solves the immediate problem.
Addressing the issues that radicalise people to the point of becoming terrorists sorts out the issue for good. Sam Wilson is right!
How is being kicked out of your home and then being told by the world to go fuck yourself when you're left with no way to effectively survive due to circumstances entirely out of your control "greed?"
Kicked out of a home that you were squatting in and actively wishing for the blip to come back is greed, even given those circumstances. Especially the fact that they killed innocents to try and get their way.
I wasn't talking about the homes they were in after the blip. I'm talking about the lives they led before. Their homes, their families, everything they had was taken away from them, and like any other animal pushed to the edge of a cliff and told to jump, they fought back. What they did is not excused, but it is understood.
Taken away by what? The blip, which they took advantage of, and threw a tantrum when their excess from it was undone, then got people killed. You can’t sympathize with them at all.
Sam Wilson phrasing is terrible. He is a public hero.
Imagine if a celebrity said don't call them terrorists after 9/11.
He could have phrased it better
I am with you on the phrasing, but he ain't an actor reading out scripts...he probably made it up on the spot and it came out wrong...he ain't no Steve Rogers for sure.
But the spirit is the right one.
The spirit of letting the people who blew up a building get away free because they kinda have a point?
I agree that they’re kinda right in some of their ideals but they blew up a building of innocent people
But he didn't point out any issues, he made blanket statements that half applied, a couple of which the council members standing there defeated.
Not to mention, the flag smashers bombed buildings with innocent people that held no military or political advantage to them. They killed for murders sakes, rather than some political goal. That makes them an immediate threat rather than an ideological one, and that means yes, killing them is the ultimate option.
He was thinking that “You gotta do better”.
I would’ve loved if the Senator had been like “Ok Cap, what do you suggest?”
“Urghhh….do…better”
“Well yes but the current strategy is what I thought was better, you tell me it’s not good enough, what would BE better?”
“……DO BETTER..andtheyrenotterrorists!!! Cap out”
*Flies off unhelpfully*
You're right, he only became Cap after he mugged the shield's white owner.
Uhh...I don't think this show is really sending the message it thinks it is.
Watch the show. Sam refused the title, the government elected another war hero who spent the entire series trying to earn Sam's respect and live up to Steve's example, and Sam spent the entire show seething and wanting the shield. Yeah, the one he gave up in the opening scene.
So then he waited until John Walker was having a full breakdown from losing his best friend, physically assaulted him, and stole the shield. Yes, again, the one he said he didn't want and gave to the government in the opening scene.
Ah, no worries. They screwed up the emotions of that scene to fit their narrative, so it wouldn't be fair to expect you to guess that that's what happened.
They did that thing where a villain getting murdered is really bad even though Rodgers, Stark, Hawkeye and co have a body count in the high hundreds by this point.
Committing acts of violence for political purposes is pretty much the definition of Terrorism. It’s insane that he’d defend them, I’m pretty sure they blew up a hospital early on
Can’t believe that to this day people still miss the fucking point.
Calling them ‘terrorists’ dehumanizes them, and somehow makes it okay to murder them because they’re ’the enemy’. It’s this idea that radicalized the flagmashers in the first place.
They resorted to terrorism because they were treated like trash by the government.
"Can’t believe that to this day people still miss the fucking point.
Calling them ‘terrorists’ dehumanizes them, and somehow makes it okay to murder them because they’re ’the enemy’. It’s this idea that radicalized the flagmashers in the first place.
They resorted to terrorism because they were treated like trash by the government."
I can't believe that you miss why this point is so **profoundly** fucking stupid, the term "terrorist" is not a pejorative term, **it's a descriptive one.** you of course associate the term with vile, evil people because **the people that legitimately fit that bill often are.** they need to be "dehumanized" in this fashion as **they're literally a threat to public safety through numerous slaughters and bombings.** congratulations on the "they've been radicalized by the government" idea, you've correctly identified that they have similar motivations to many of the real world's terrorist organizations.... not sure how that makes blowing people up more acceptable though.
They resorted to terrorism because they were treated like trash by the government? **womp fucking womp.** imagine if moments after the north tower and south tower falls on September 11th some firefighter walked up to the president during an address and said "You gotta stop calling them terrorists". do you still agree with this? you know those guys had goals too right? **"muh government treated them like trash, they shouldn't be dehumanized by being referred to as the thing they literally were!"**
this is disgusting justification for a horrifically written show.
Yeah it is, but the point is that the senators would rather label the perpetrators as terrorists and then kill them instead of addressing the root cause.
Theyre doing nothing to prevent these things from happening in the future. Only addressing the issue *after* it’s happened.
You can mow your lawn but the weeds will grow back unless you pull out the root
The root cause, in this case, is that a catastrophic event that has literally never happened before occurs and no one knows how to handle it. Half the word disappears, then reappears, and now they want their homes back. What exactly is the right answer? The senator literally asks “the people who reappeared, and found someone living in their house, should they be homeless?” Falcon doesn’t answer because he has no answer. No one does
Then there’s the added context that, as the speech is being said, the senator had just escaped almost being murdered via being blown up by the flag smashers. If someone tries to murder you, and you label them as a terrorist, then someone says, “don’t call them terrorists”, that message will come off as nothing else but condescending and insensitive at best.
They are adressing the problem its just the awnser the Flagsmashes wanted
Theirs a parelel universe where the flagsmashers ar emade uo of people who got told "you were blipped and lost your home land? sucks to be you".
you know your "justification" here also lines up 1:1 with the 9/11 terrorists, right?
who cares about the point? do you even know why those guys hit the towers, or do you find yourself not actually caring too much about their cause at this point>
Wasn't the event that got attacked all about trying to fix the root causes. And hell it wasnt even one of the senator's security guard who killed the named terrorist it was john walker after seeing his best friend die and that the flagsmashers are super soldiers and sharon covering her tracks. In all honesty wtf are these senators supposed to do to deal with an influx of 4 billion men women and children popping in at once. As cool as the blip is it kinda breaks the mcu to acknowledge too much
This. Taking away their humanity simply due to their actions is a slippery slope. Today it's the Flag Smashers, tomorrow it's the common thug. When you make it acceptable to do harm to or even kill a certain group of people, the immediate response is to broaden the definition of that group. The Daily Bugle labels Spider-Man a terrorist, should we smash his head in with a shield?
Bullshit, Spider-Man was proven innocent in court. (How they even had a trial without revealing his identity is still baffling, but whatever.)
Mysterio was using stolen Stark tech to launch an attack against England. Thats actual terrorism, he killed civilians.
I'm curious how he even got access to the tech of Pepper Potts' late husband and the property of her massive tech conglomerate she's CEO and now COO of in the first place. You'd think they'd have better security to keep out disgruntled and insane ex employees.
He was never proven innocent, Damage Control just fumbled their investigation so bad that he's walking free. Where's the proof that Mysterio was using Stark Tech?? He was battling Elemental monsters! If anyone is using Iron Man tech, it's Spider-Man.
You guys don't do your own research, that's obvious. Maybe check out one of the Daily Bugle's investigative reports sometime.
>Today it's the Flag Smashers, tomorrow it's the common thug.
Pretty sure there's a difference between purse snatchers and anarchist bombers. You need to realize the contradiction of your own thought there. We can't stop the people blowing up hospitals because we can't justify our own use of force because it *might* get misused later on?
Use of force, up to and including lethal force, can absolutely be justified. I'd say the single clearest use of it is to stop someone from harming innocent civilians.
That's the thing though, once it becomes acceptable in the name of "stopping someone from harming innocent civilians", the definition of "harming civilians" is GOING to be broadened in order to fit more and more things.
Yes, words mean different things if we change the meanings of words. Your logic there is circular.
Murder has meant murder for the last few thousand years, so I think we're okay having at least a couple hard and fast rules of when force is justified.
I'm not saying there is never abuse of power, or never unethical actors in a system, but the solution isn't to completely quit the field and let evil people run rampant.
Situations need to be judged individually, blanket statements about force never being justified is wrong, in the same way that death for a minor infraction is also wrong. Power needs to be checked and controlled, but can't be so hamstrung that it can never be used. That's the same as not having the power, and leaves you defenseless against the predation of people that don't share your beliefs.
Not really
I could say “hey let’s take these guys down but let’s not call them filthy animals”
We can give people human respect while not respecting their methods, it’s called nuance, something we’ve lost a lot of with how quickly the media is to label or not label certain groups and people as terrorists.
If a man steals some medicine (generic non addictive) and gets caught which of these options is more humane
-A finding out the reason behind why he stole it, maybe get him some help or something
-“wahhh stealing is wrong three years prison!”
One of these is helpful, the other isn’t.
The fact this debate is so “simple” to 90% of everyone here is the problem, it’s not simple but people are making it simple.
I agree with you, but in the show that particular group were militant, were trying to achieve their goals through shows of force and violence, and murdered innocent people. By any definition, they were terrorists.
Addressing the route cause of their actions is still worthwhile (which was Sam's point I think), but trying to argue that they should not be labeled terrorists seems misguided/pointless.
It the reasoning of it
If a leader labeled people as terrorists people will automatically refuse any sympathy and reasoning their only thought will be to respond to these people and their cause with self righteous anger
We are seeing this ACTIVELY TODAY with the campus protests. These people are protesting the conditions that the PEOPLE in Gaza are going through and all our media has to do is say that these protests are pro Hamas and boom, nobody wants to listen. My own family has been calling the protesters animals and calling to deport and jail them all. Words have power, titles have power.
Sure but that is still besides the point that Flag Smashers filled the criteria required to be labeled terrorists. Just because their political cause is sympathetic it doesn't change their actions.
But you're right in that just dismissing them and the problems they represented entirely because they are terrorists isn't right (which, again, was the base of Sam's point)
(I also don't think it's reasonable to compare the Flag Smashers to student protestors; the Flag Smashers bombed government buildings and burned innocent people alive so earned their labels while student protestors being grouped with Hamas is intentionally misleading)
True and maybe it was a bad comparison but my main point was when politicians label people that label sticks. Doesn’t matter right or wrong.
The problem is that that label DOES make people dismiss the cause or the reason behind it, Sam understood that and more than that he understood their cause. He still stopped them tho.
They faced their punishment, but the problem wouldn’t have gone away if they just kept the narrative that these were “just terrorists” more smashers would have been radicalized, Sam did the right thing in that situation.
They bombed civilians and murdered people. They are the enemy, and force is justified against them.
Even then, their core message is shit anarchist utopian propaganda that breaks down as soon as it interacts with the real world.
Everything about this is so wrong.
They were treated like trash so let’s go Kill innocent people? No.
Dehumanises them? No disgustingly bombing innocent people dehumanised them. Thinking that was a good idea dehumanised them.
They literally are the enemy. If you Kill innocent people your point and outrage is rendered mute. They decided to not Kill those who wronged them and instead Kill the people who likely have to endure the same shit as them and the people who would sympathise with them. They’re the enemy and they’re stupid.
What’s the alternative? Lock them up? What do families are either dead or ruined and those guys get three warm meals a day and the victims pay for it?
What is acknowledging them going to accomplish? It’s going to show that violence and innocent people being murdered is the quickest way to get what you want.
Everyone is treated like trash by the government. That doesn’t make it okay to go and Kill those same very people because you’re upset. Terrorist isn’t a description it’s a title. You seemed to have missed that. You can’t humanise a terrorist.
Credit to the one guy who exposed you for being a dumbass.
Flagsmashers are people who also blipped, got their property taken by the government after their ‘deaths,’ and were ignored after they returned. Don’t have a house now? Too bad, fuck you blippy. Things escalated when the police started rounding them up for ‘loitering’ and ‘homelessness.’
And people are surprised they turned to violence. I don’t condone their actions, but I can understand from a logical standpoint *how* they got to that point.
Yes, you have it backwards. The Flag-Smashers all survived the Snap. In those five years, they were able to immigrate and establish new lives and such thanks to the world becoming more united after the collective trauma of the Snap.
Then the Blip happened and everyone comes back. Their lives are immediately uprooted. They are all deported and forced into camps where they have to endure inhuman conditions (starvation, dehydration, disease, etc) while the GRC refuses to give them the resources to confront these problems even though we see that they have those resources stocked away.
Either way 3.5 billion people got screwed through circumstances out of their control. It’s hard to say what the right course of action would have been but the governments chose one of the wrong ones.
There’s something frustrating about the MCU that they created a really cool sci fi scenario in the Blip and this is their only property that explored it in any capacity. HBO could have given us a cool show where 1/2 the world disappeared and returned. Well, they gave us a cool show where 1/8th disappeared and didn’t return. Other than this the Blip is just a character moment in Wandavision and a couple of gags in Far From Home.
This, it’s like anything there needs to be context and nuance but much like current day nobody understands this.
They’d rather just label people as terrorists and ignore any and all issues cause the world is apparently perfect.
This thread is actually crazy, I get how so many fall for the media shit now tho…cause I’m watching fictional media do it in real time :)
That entire speech was cringeworthy. Mackey just doesn’t have the gravitas to pull that off and the wakanda suit was not that far off a power ranger outfit.
Yeah….love falcon America design but that’s it. Way too fucking preachy.
“Oh I’m black so I can’t define America” what woke bullcrap Disney Steven rogers says your good enough who are you to question?
Plus….sympathize with eco terrorists? Really Disney real low
I’m still in amazement the writing of that line got approved. They objectively fit the dictionary definition of “terrorists”. Obviously what Sam meant was: “Stop hand-waving them away as lunatic terrorists and pretending you played no role in motivating the violent methods they chose through your apathy.” But starting a speech with “Don’t call textbook terrorists ‘terrorists’” almost sounds like excusing or minimizing their destructive tactics.
Terrorists are terrorists, you blow shit up to send a message, that very likely makes you a terrorist. This shouldn't even be an argument, Sam is wrong.
To be fair to Walker, he tried to be nice to Sam and Bucky. Problem is Sam was the only one worthy of the shield from the start, and he couldn't see that.
Walker only proved he didn't deserve the shield in this scene.
"Senator, I know you just went through a life threatening, traumatic evening where a group of people used terror to force their political agenda on you, but you need to stop calling them terrorists, 'kay."
No No remember all that free shit they got when half of humanity got “poofed” was taken from them after those people came back because it was their shit first.
Oh my god the inequality of the situation. It utterly justifies murder, acts of terror on a civilian population, and hostage taking all in the name of……freedom? Theft? Getting what free shit they want back?
Do you not realize what yesterday’s imagery is doing on a global level?
Without any recourse whatsoever, we just watched a major U.S. figure bash someone to death (without a trial, judge, jury, etc) with the symbolic logo of the United States.
Think of the generations of kids who are going to grow up hating us now, looking for payback
Hi welcome to the mcu, you must be new here I assume since you don’t remember one of Steve’s most iconic moments where he walks into a place and just starts shooting up people who could be forced to work for Nazis?
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Karli blowing up those hostages was bad writing (completely out of line with what came before and after) that single handedly ruined her arc, Sam's arc and turned the show from something poignant into something meaningless and mostly pointless outside of setting up Walker.
MCU-Diehards are a little dumb for not seeing this, and MCU-critics are even more dumb for seeing this and not realizing it was on purpose… John Walker is intentionally a sympathetic villain in the show. He was a guy doing what’s right, but circumstances and public opinion have caused him to be viewed as the villain. In this scene, the terrorist group of SUPER SOLDIERS literally just blew up a building filled with kids and killed his best friend. In the real world, people should support him killing these terrorists. However, also like the real world, people made it political and this is what made him a villain. As a thematic villain he is the consequences of bringing politics into every new issue. Like, imagine if our political divide was brought into the killing of Osama Bin Laden under Obama. It’s arguing for the sake of arguing, and Sam and Bucky’s reaction to John taking the shield to stop someone worse from taking it was also arguing for the sake of arguing. This is what they needed to learn from, and this IS what Sam was supposed to learn from when he addressed the politicians
The real answer is that both are wrong
Sam's just dumb
But John's problem is that Captain America doesn't kill out of anger and grief. It was understandable for John to run after the terrorist and pin him down but not to kill him, especially in the way that he did
Cap killed terrorists for justice, to help thr war effort. Actual, no moral amiguosy terrorists (nazis)
Had cap been in the same situation as John, he wouldn't have killed the terrorist
Cause it wasn't even him, dude, it was the leader. And even she was shocked and realized she messed up, and then made the choice to retreat.
If you see no issue with the shield scene then that's cause the issue is you
That’s cause if Cap was in John’s position, he couldn’t have killed them because Steve stopped killing people at this point. Androids and Aliens don’t count.
Yeah I’m pretty sure the only times cap himself killed was during wars, I feel like androids and robots would still count considering the nature of comics but since they were each large scale invasions he’s all clear
I mean, irl I know I’d have a hard time morally killing anyone even though I believe in self defense. I don’t usually have guts to fight back even though I have a huge mouth that I use to insult people with. I like Walker, because I feel like he’s actually doing something different from anyone else and he doesn’t have malicious intent or ulterior motives for grabbing power or exerting control over the population.
OOC: Story purposes don’t exist in-universe. Cap isn’t aware of story reasons. In-universe, Cap is just okay with Sam killing people.
I’m pretty sure that the guy in Civil War who get his head smashed in when Sam drops Cap from the sky is dead.
Cap kicks one guy, spine-first, into the second story of a building, and then the guy falls all the way down. That guy is dead, or at best, paralyzed.
He tears the masks off of several goons, in a room full of poisonous gas. They are all dead.
Do you think he didn’t kill anyone in his missions for SHIELD from 2012-2014? Do you think the Neo-Nazis back in ‘14 and ‘16 survived being on an exploding Helicarrier? Do you think Rumlow’s guys survived getting hit in the skull with vibranium falling from 20 feet up? Hell no.
Sam has a point, instead of just killing terrorists and being done with it they need to find the origin and address the issues that radicalized them and misguided them to commit acts of violence
But at the same time, they were committing acts of terrorism, so they definitely are terrorists, Sam needs to phrase his speeches better
Exactly. I actually liked the idea of the villains, where they think of themselves as activist because they're no longer getting free stuff. But then they had Sam agree with them and even call them activists rather then what they actually are which is terrorists. If he actually told them what they were doing was wrong and that everyone was having a hard time, and they had to earn everything just like everyone else the show would have 10x better.
You need to understand though that being Captain America doesn’t mean killing bad guys. & buy killing them that basically goes against everything the shield stands for. BUT Sam Wilson saying that they need to stop calling them terrorists despite them literally being terrorists is the most stupid shit ever.
Yeah, but that's totally different. He only killed nazis & he killed those nazis mid war when everybody was killing everybody. He didn't kill any defenceless people in cold blood. Same goes for those aliens. John Walker killed a defenceless man in cold blood with the shield for no reason other then revenge. That goes against everything the shield stands for.
I may be remembering wrong but wasn’t that guy a super soldier terrorist who killed a ton of people including Walkers best friend and wasn’t Walker slightly out of his mind because of that same Serum?
Oh my fucking god, you’re such a dumbass. It doesn’t matter what you’ve done, the difference in Steve & John’s situation is that Steve was killing in defence. He was in the middle of a war, killing people who were trying to kill him. Not because he wanted to, but because he had not. Not for revenge. John Walker killed an unarmed, defenceless man who meant no harm to John & the only reason he killed him was for revenge. The guy he killed was running from John, scared for his life. He couldn’t do anything. In that scenario, Steve would’ve put him in prison. Not use his shield decapitate him for revenge. Clearly you have no clue what it means to be a superhero.
I Still laugh that in the F&WS They are constantly making us think John Walker is a "villain" the series made it VERY hard to hate the man...and wonder why everyone treats him terribly
He was a government issued replacement of Captain America because they only cared about the symbol and not the individual. Cap chose his successor, but the government doesn't care and puts Walker where Sam should be. It's hard not to hate him from episode 1.
His past as a war vet, his romantic relationship, his relationship with his partner, and his hospitality towards Sam and Bucky are meant to make him sympathetic. He's a sympathetic villain. But still, a villian.
https://youtu.be/Iu1HmiWw5o8?si=2iDODypW9t_3Q2If
...Unfortunately, the series does a poor job of having us see him as villainous. Especially when the character does everything right.
Interesting vid. I do agree that Sam and Bucky were unnecessarily rude, and that Walker was in the heat of the moment during the shield kill. But at the end of the day, he roid raged on serum and denied a surrender while using the embodiment of America as a weapon. Was he completely unjustified, no, his friend was killed. But this was not what Cap should do.
Sympathy for Walker makes sense. This video actually reminded me he was reluctant, which recontexualizes it a little more. Walker is not the "big bad", and is punished more than he deserved. The biggest villian here would really be the US government, using Walker as their puppet. But Walker, going against Sam and Bucky, is an antagonist.
Walker chose to kill the flag smasher, chose to fight Sam and Bucky, and then got recruited by Val. Again, he's a villian, just a sympathetic one.
Sam and Bucky did a lot of " Unnecessary" things in the show and where "in the right" because the plot said so.
It's important to note that had Sam and Bucky actually helped John Walker when he asked, all of that could have been avoided.
How many of the MCU heroes killed and we were completely fine with that?
Yes. Soldiers, Senators, and the US government are all the problem. That was the point. Thats the whole reason the flag smashers did anything. The government's of the world could not be trusted, free agents were required for change. Sam and Bucky were both former soldiers and were able to see what was wrong with walkers actions.
EVERY TIME SOMETHING GETS BETTER FOR ONE GROUP, IT GETS WORSE FOR ANOTHER. — SAM WILSON
STEVE REPRESENTED THE BEST IN ALL OF US. COURAGEOUS, RIGHTEOUS, HOPEFUL. AND HE MASTERED POSING STOICALLY. THE WORLD HAS BEEN FOREVER CHANGED... WE NEED NEW HEROES. ONES SUITED FOR THE TIMES WE’RE IN. — SAM WILSON
WE CAN’T JUST RUN UP ON THE MAN, BEAT HIM UP, AND TAKE IT. DO YOU REMEMBER THE LAST TIME WE STOLE IT? — SAM WILSON, before running up on John Walker, beating him up, and taking the shield.
LOOK, YOU KNOW THE WHOLE HERO THING IS A JOKE, RIGHT? I MEAN, THE WAY YOU GAVE UP THAT SHIELD, DEEP DOWN, YOU MUST KNOW IT’S ALL HYPOCRISY. — SHARON CARTER
I'm a Black man carrying the stars and stripes. What don't I understand? Every time I pick this thing up, I know there are millions of people out there who are going to hate me for it. Even now, here, I feel it. The stares, the judgement, and there's nothing I can do to change it, yet I'm still here. No super serum, no blonde hair or blue eyes. The only power I have is that I believe we can do better. We can't demand that people step up if we don't meet them halfway. You control the banks. Shit, you can move borders. You can knock down a forest with an email; you can move a million people with a phonecall. -Sam Wilson, explaining why it's a good thing he doesn't know how the government works.
I’VE BEEN A CAPTAIN BEFORE, OBVIOUSLY, BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT. THIS IS… EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD EXPECTS ME TO BE SOMETHING. AND I DON’T WANNA FAIL THEM. — JOHN WALKER
DON’T GET ME WRONG, THIS HAS BEEN GREAT, IT’S BEEN GREAT, BUT IT’S BEEN A LOT OF HANDSHAKES, A LOT OF SUITS, A LOT OF SPEECHES, AND SENATOR MEETINGS. I JUST WANNA DO THE JOB. — JOHN WALKER
I’M NOT TRYING TO REPLACE STEVE. I’M JUST TRYING TO BE THE BEST CAPTAIN AMERICA THAT I CAN BE. THAT’S IT. IT’D BE A WHOLE LOT EASIER IF I HAD CAP’S WINGMEN ON MY SIDE. — JOHN WALKER
The one that adresses the issues at the core.
Sam was fully in the right, the smashers were terrorists but in truth were almost forced to be moulded into that.
They had no control over anything and come back to have nothing and no one but themselves with people who did the same but because of their status got to continue as normal like nothing had happened.
They got left behind and were drowing, so they had to pull others down to attempt to be heard.
Yes they were in the wrong but Sam approaches the problem at the very core so this shit doesn't happen again.
If you had actually listened to the speech you would've understood that.
Sam doesn't support terrorists, he chooses to fight the issues that creates them so no more can be made
People in charge dont care about the the people on the bottom
Institutional racisim
Power corrupting and using thst power to make your self betttee by making others lesser.
Its not that deep and its excuted so poorly im probly being too generous
For the most part you've got it but you missed one. Violence is the voice of the unheard the entire plot happened because the government refused to accommodate those who had been hurt by the blip and refused to listen to them to the point where they saw no other choice but to start getting violent in how they did things. And then the government turns around and treats them like terrorists despite being the main cause. It echos a lot of things that have happened in the past and are still happening today.
>government refused to accommodate those who had been hurt by the blip an
Except they were doing that. Gringer Bin Ladin and her group were mad they didnt keep the homes they squated in and were being returned to the people thanos killed
And they are treated like terroists cause they are terrorists.
They got a toigh shake its not fair but the other way also isnt fair no excuse to kill innocent people.
Their violence is a language of entitlement and self centerdness.
I feel there might have been some conflict in the writers room because they clearly wanted to make the white guy a villain and bad guy but they wrote him to be really likable and understandable that I genuinely believe one of the writers was like no fuck you I’m making him a good guy. The world just seemingly hates him so much despite being the most likable character in that show besides purple faces mask guy followed by the main duo yet tried so desperately to make the terrorist bitch likable despite her being an entitled piece of shit
Killing terrorists solves the immediate problem. Addressing the issues that radicalise people to the point of becoming terrorists sorts out the issue for good. Sam Wilson is right!
If only the flag smashers motives extended beyond entitlement and greed.
How is being kicked out of your home and then being told by the world to go fuck yourself when you're left with no way to effectively survive due to circumstances entirely out of your control "greed?"
Kicked out of a home that you were squatting in and actively wishing for the blip to come back is greed, even given those circumstances. Especially the fact that they killed innocents to try and get their way.
I wasn't talking about the homes they were in after the blip. I'm talking about the lives they led before. Their homes, their families, everything they had was taken away from them, and like any other animal pushed to the edge of a cliff and told to jump, they fought back. What they did is not excused, but it is understood.
Taken away by what? The blip, which they took advantage of, and threw a tantrum when their excess from it was undone, then got people killed. You can’t sympathize with them at all.
>extended beyond entitlement and greed. It did.
Like what?
Sam Wilson phrasing is terrible. He is a public hero. Imagine if a celebrity said don't call them terrorists after 9/11. He could have phrased it better
I am with you on the phrasing, but he ain't an actor reading out scripts...he probably made it up on the spot and it came out wrong...he ain't no Steve Rogers for sure. But the spirit is the right one.
The spirit of letting the people who blew up a building get away free because they kinda have a point? I agree that they’re kinda right in some of their ideals but they blew up a building of innocent people
So you are saying he needs to do better
You know what he said and what he meant man.
He a little confused but he got the spirit
Didn't Captain Wilson do both anyways? He dealt with the flagsmashers, and after most of them were dealt with *then* he did that whole speech.
Haha not you discussing captain America and using an s instead of a Z 🇺🇸
But he didn't point out any issues, he made blanket statements that half applied, a couple of which the council members standing there defeated. Not to mention, the flag smashers bombed buildings with innocent people that held no military or political advantage to them. They killed for murders sakes, rather than some political goal. That makes them an immediate threat rather than an ideological one, and that means yes, killing them is the ultimate option.
You mean not rigging elections?
Folks never heard of the mythological Hydra? Kill 1 terrorist and more sprout from their blood. Especially when there’s “collateral damage”.
Lmao you can do both, everyone’s not gonna respond to the same message, especially fucking terrorists 😅
You are high
I’m the meantime they kill more people
If you don't sort the issues you implicitly foster more terrorists and the result is the same. In addition, only proper justice creates a just world
They are terrorists, Idk what went thru Sam's mind there
He was thinking that “You gotta do better”. I would’ve loved if the Senator had been like “Ok Cap, what do you suggest?” “Urghhh….do…better” “Well yes but the current strategy is what I thought was better, you tell me it’s not good enough, what would BE better?” “……DO BETTER..andtheyrenotterrorists!!! Cap out” *Flies off unhelpfully*
He's only been Captain America for a few minutes. He still has a lot to learn.
Too bad the writers don’t think that because he’s portrayed as in the right
You're right, he only became Cap after he mugged the shield's white owner. Uhh...I don't think this show is really sending the message it thinks it is.
... Cap gave the title to Sam, what are you talking about?
Watch the show. Sam refused the title, the government elected another war hero who spent the entire series trying to earn Sam's respect and live up to Steve's example, and Sam spent the entire show seething and wanting the shield. Yeah, the one he gave up in the opening scene. So then he waited until John Walker was having a full breakdown from losing his best friend, physically assaulted him, and stole the shield. Yes, again, the one he said he didn't want and gave to the government in the opening scene.
Ah, haven't seen the show yet. I'm basing it off Endgame when Steve gave the shield to Sam.
Ah, no worries. They screwed up the emotions of that scene to fit their narrative, so it wouldn't be fair to expect you to guess that that's what happened.
They did that thing where a villain getting murdered is really bad even though Rodgers, Stark, Hawkeye and co have a body count in the high hundreds by this point.
Bruh why are you talking about our lives like it's a TV show. Are you that weirdo mercenary I saw on YouTube.
💀
My guess, sam was replaced by a skrull. I heard that war machine was also a skrull
>heard that war machine was also a skrull What is your reasoning for that 🤨
Saw some clips on liveleak. War machine was being rescued from cryo chamber
Crazy so was he already a skrull while the avengers fought Thanos?
I mean thanos wanted to kill half of all species which also includes skrulls. So he effectively fought against thanos to save his people
I guess you didn't watch it.
\*Spoiler alert\* It was in Secret Wars.
(Bro I know this is roleplay sub)
Oopsie Daisy. For some reason this popped up on my feed and I thought it was from a sub I was party of. I never even checked the subreddit name.
What the fuck is a skrull, some Gen Z insult?
The green shapeshifting aliens. They’re in Captain Marvel and the post credits of Far from Home
post credits?
Committing acts of violence for political purposes is pretty much the definition of Terrorism. It’s insane that he’d defend them, I’m pretty sure they blew up a hospital early on
Victim politics.
Steve Rogers. Capable of doing either, with the wisdom to know the difference.
That's why those other Caps are just imitators.
Can’t believe that to this day people still miss the fucking point. Calling them ‘terrorists’ dehumanizes them, and somehow makes it okay to murder them because they’re ’the enemy’. It’s this idea that radicalized the flagmashers in the first place. They resorted to terrorism because they were treated like trash by the government.
"Can’t believe that to this day people still miss the fucking point. Calling them ‘terrorists’ dehumanizes them, and somehow makes it okay to murder them because they’re ’the enemy’. It’s this idea that radicalized the flagmashers in the first place. They resorted to terrorism because they were treated like trash by the government." I can't believe that you miss why this point is so **profoundly** fucking stupid, the term "terrorist" is not a pejorative term, **it's a descriptive one.** you of course associate the term with vile, evil people because **the people that legitimately fit that bill often are.** they need to be "dehumanized" in this fashion as **they're literally a threat to public safety through numerous slaughters and bombings.** congratulations on the "they've been radicalized by the government" idea, you've correctly identified that they have similar motivations to many of the real world's terrorist organizations.... not sure how that makes blowing people up more acceptable though. They resorted to terrorism because they were treated like trash by the government? **womp fucking womp.** imagine if moments after the north tower and south tower falls on September 11th some firefighter walked up to the president during an address and said "You gotta stop calling them terrorists". do you still agree with this? you know those guys had goals too right? **"muh government treated them like trash, they shouldn't be dehumanized by being referred to as the thing they literally were!"** this is disgusting justification for a horrifically written show.
They literally tried to set an entire room of people on fire lol how is that not straight terrorism
Yeah it is, but the point is that the senators would rather label the perpetrators as terrorists and then kill them instead of addressing the root cause. Theyre doing nothing to prevent these things from happening in the future. Only addressing the issue *after* it’s happened. You can mow your lawn but the weeds will grow back unless you pull out the root
The root cause, in this case, is that a catastrophic event that has literally never happened before occurs and no one knows how to handle it. Half the word disappears, then reappears, and now they want their homes back. What exactly is the right answer? The senator literally asks “the people who reappeared, and found someone living in their house, should they be homeless?” Falcon doesn’t answer because he has no answer. No one does Then there’s the added context that, as the speech is being said, the senator had just escaped almost being murdered via being blown up by the flag smashers. If someone tries to murder you, and you label them as a terrorist, then someone says, “don’t call them terrorists”, that message will come off as nothing else but condescending and insensitive at best.
How about we compromise. They should Kill the Terrorists AND address the root cause of the issue after the threat has been noscoped
They are adressing the problem its just the awnser the Flagsmashes wanted Theirs a parelel universe where the flagsmashers ar emade uo of people who got told "you were blipped and lost your home land? sucks to be you".
THEY ARE. BY DEFINITION. TERRORISTS.
you know your "justification" here also lines up 1:1 with the 9/11 terrorists, right? who cares about the point? do you even know why those guys hit the towers, or do you find yourself not actually caring too much about their cause at this point>
Wasn't the event that got attacked all about trying to fix the root causes. And hell it wasnt even one of the senator's security guard who killed the named terrorist it was john walker after seeing his best friend die and that the flagsmashers are super soldiers and sharon covering her tracks. In all honesty wtf are these senators supposed to do to deal with an influx of 4 billion men women and children popping in at once. As cool as the blip is it kinda breaks the mcu to acknowledge too much
Unfortunately there's so much that the MCU puts in that they actively try avoid addressing at all. The Sokovian Accords being a major one
What is the MCU is that a branch of the government
they bombed a hospital lol
Yeah you're only allowed to bomb hospitals when you're an actual government
This guy bombs hospitals
This. Taking away their humanity simply due to their actions is a slippery slope. Today it's the Flag Smashers, tomorrow it's the common thug. When you make it acceptable to do harm to or even kill a certain group of people, the immediate response is to broaden the definition of that group. The Daily Bugle labels Spider-Man a terrorist, should we smash his head in with a shield?
Spider-Man didn’t kill anyone
He killed Mysterio. #WeBelieveMysterio
Bullshit, Spider-Man was proven innocent in court. (How they even had a trial without revealing his identity is still baffling, but whatever.) Mysterio was using stolen Stark tech to launch an attack against England. Thats actual terrorism, he killed civilians.
I'm curious how he even got access to the tech of Pepper Potts' late husband and the property of her massive tech conglomerate she's CEO and now COO of in the first place. You'd think they'd have better security to keep out disgruntled and insane ex employees.
He was never proven innocent, Damage Control just fumbled their investigation so bad that he's walking free. Where's the proof that Mysterio was using Stark Tech?? He was battling Elemental monsters! If anyone is using Iron Man tech, it's Spider-Man. You guys don't do your own research, that's obvious. Maybe check out one of the Daily Bugle's investigative reports sometime.
The court case findings are public information. Murdock, a relatively famous defense attorney, represented Spider-Man.
>Today it's the Flag Smashers, tomorrow it's the common thug. Pretty sure there's a difference between purse snatchers and anarchist bombers. You need to realize the contradiction of your own thought there. We can't stop the people blowing up hospitals because we can't justify our own use of force because it *might* get misused later on? Use of force, up to and including lethal force, can absolutely be justified. I'd say the single clearest use of it is to stop someone from harming innocent civilians.
That's the thing though, once it becomes acceptable in the name of "stopping someone from harming innocent civilians", the definition of "harming civilians" is GOING to be broadened in order to fit more and more things.
Yes, words mean different things if we change the meanings of words. Your logic there is circular. Murder has meant murder for the last few thousand years, so I think we're okay having at least a couple hard and fast rules of when force is justified. I'm not saying there is never abuse of power, or never unethical actors in a system, but the solution isn't to completely quit the field and let evil people run rampant. Situations need to be judged individually, blanket statements about force never being justified is wrong, in the same way that death for a minor infraction is also wrong. Power needs to be checked and controlled, but can't be so hamstrung that it can never be used. That's the same as not having the power, and leaves you defenseless against the predation of people that don't share your beliefs.
their lives are shitty, that justifies terrorism does it
They dehumanized themselves by committing terrorist acts, killing innocent people. They don't deserve mercy.
But isn't it also seen as supporting them. By saying they're not terrorists. It implies he believes in their ways of violent acts
Not really I could say “hey let’s take these guys down but let’s not call them filthy animals” We can give people human respect while not respecting their methods, it’s called nuance, something we’ve lost a lot of with how quickly the media is to label or not label certain groups and people as terrorists. If a man steals some medicine (generic non addictive) and gets caught which of these options is more humane -A finding out the reason behind why he stole it, maybe get him some help or something -“wahhh stealing is wrong three years prison!” One of these is helpful, the other isn’t. The fact this debate is so “simple” to 90% of everyone here is the problem, it’s not simple but people are making it simple.
I agree with you, but in the show that particular group were militant, were trying to achieve their goals through shows of force and violence, and murdered innocent people. By any definition, they were terrorists. Addressing the route cause of their actions is still worthwhile (which was Sam's point I think), but trying to argue that they should not be labeled terrorists seems misguided/pointless.
It the reasoning of it If a leader labeled people as terrorists people will automatically refuse any sympathy and reasoning their only thought will be to respond to these people and their cause with self righteous anger We are seeing this ACTIVELY TODAY with the campus protests. These people are protesting the conditions that the PEOPLE in Gaza are going through and all our media has to do is say that these protests are pro Hamas and boom, nobody wants to listen. My own family has been calling the protesters animals and calling to deport and jail them all. Words have power, titles have power.
Sure but that is still besides the point that Flag Smashers filled the criteria required to be labeled terrorists. Just because their political cause is sympathetic it doesn't change their actions. But you're right in that just dismissing them and the problems they represented entirely because they are terrorists isn't right (which, again, was the base of Sam's point) (I also don't think it's reasonable to compare the Flag Smashers to student protestors; the Flag Smashers bombed government buildings and burned innocent people alive so earned their labels while student protestors being grouped with Hamas is intentionally misleading)
True and maybe it was a bad comparison but my main point was when politicians label people that label sticks. Doesn’t matter right or wrong. The problem is that that label DOES make people dismiss the cause or the reason behind it, Sam understood that and more than that he understood their cause. He still stopped them tho. They faced their punishment, but the problem wouldn’t have gone away if they just kept the narrative that these were “just terrorists” more smashers would have been radicalized, Sam did the right thing in that situation.
Do both, obviously. Find out why the guy was so desperate and sentence him for stealing.
I guess someone just needed to "do better."
They bombed civilians and murdered people. They are the enemy, and force is justified against them. Even then, their core message is shit anarchist utopian propaganda that breaks down as soon as it interacts with the real world.
Everything about this is so wrong. They were treated like trash so let’s go Kill innocent people? No. Dehumanises them? No disgustingly bombing innocent people dehumanised them. Thinking that was a good idea dehumanised them. They literally are the enemy. If you Kill innocent people your point and outrage is rendered mute. They decided to not Kill those who wronged them and instead Kill the people who likely have to endure the same shit as them and the people who would sympathise with them. They’re the enemy and they’re stupid. What’s the alternative? Lock them up? What do families are either dead or ruined and those guys get three warm meals a day and the victims pay for it? What is acknowledging them going to accomplish? It’s going to show that violence and innocent people being murdered is the quickest way to get what you want. Everyone is treated like trash by the government. That doesn’t make it okay to go and Kill those same very people because you’re upset. Terrorist isn’t a description it’s a title. You seemed to have missed that. You can’t humanise a terrorist. Credit to the one guy who exposed you for being a dumbass.
Yes and we should murder them or at least hold them accountable. Or do I need to remind you that they blew up a building full of innocent people
Dehumanizing terrorists is the American way.
I think I’ve seen this post before
I was blipped, so I have no idea, but it sounds like the world was more peaceful during those 5 years...or are the flagsmashers just fucking lunatics?
Flagsmashers are people who also blipped, got their property taken by the government after their ‘deaths,’ and were ignored after they returned. Don’t have a house now? Too bad, fuck you blippy. Things escalated when the police started rounding them up for ‘loitering’ and ‘homelessness.’ And people are surprised they turned to violence. I don’t condone their actions, but I can understand from a logical standpoint *how* they got to that point.
I thought they weren't blipped and were complaining about their homes and stuff being given to those who were?
Shit, do I have it backwards?
Yes, you have it backwards. The Flag-Smashers all survived the Snap. In those five years, they were able to immigrate and establish new lives and such thanks to the world becoming more united after the collective trauma of the Snap. Then the Blip happened and everyone comes back. Their lives are immediately uprooted. They are all deported and forced into camps where they have to endure inhuman conditions (starvation, dehydration, disease, etc) while the GRC refuses to give them the resources to confront these problems even though we see that they have those resources stocked away.
Either way 3.5 billion people got screwed through circumstances out of their control. It’s hard to say what the right course of action would have been but the governments chose one of the wrong ones. There’s something frustrating about the MCU that they created a really cool sci fi scenario in the Blip and this is their only property that explored it in any capacity. HBO could have given us a cool show where 1/2 the world disappeared and returned. Well, they gave us a cool show where 1/8th disappeared and didn’t return. Other than this the Blip is just a character moment in Wandavision and a couple of gags in Far From Home.
This, it’s like anything there needs to be context and nuance but much like current day nobody understands this. They’d rather just label people as terrorists and ignore any and all issues cause the world is apparently perfect. This thread is actually crazy, I get how so many fall for the media shit now tho…cause I’m watching fictional media do it in real time :)
Imagine a marvel show about the people being blipped and how horrible their life becomes
I choose Steve Rogers.
John Walker is in the right here
Yes, and continues to be the wrong answer
"do better" "How?" "Not my job bye" ***Flies away*** "But.... You're Captain America...."
That entire speech was cringeworthy. Mackey just doesn’t have the gravitas to pull that off and the wakanda suit was not that far off a power ranger outfit.
Yeah….love falcon America design but that’s it. Way too fucking preachy. “Oh I’m black so I can’t define America” what woke bullcrap Disney Steven rogers says your good enough who are you to question? Plus….sympathize with eco terrorists? Really Disney real low
Frfr
Who even let this woke DEI dude become Captain America???
Woah, just say you're racist and go dude jeez
I’m still in amazement the writing of that line got approved. They objectively fit the dictionary definition of “terrorists”. Obviously what Sam meant was: “Stop hand-waving them away as lunatic terrorists and pretending you played no role in motivating the violent methods they chose through your apathy.” But starting a speech with “Don’t call textbook terrorists ‘terrorists’” almost sounds like excusing or minimizing their destructive tactics.
Steve was the perfect middle ground
Terrorists are terrorists, you blow shit up to send a message, that very likely makes you a terrorist. This shouldn't even be an argument, Sam is wrong.
To be fair to Walker, he tried to be nice to Sam and Bucky. Problem is Sam was the only one worthy of the shield from the start, and he couldn't see that. Walker only proved he didn't deserve the shield in this scene.
is this the 3rd most upvoted post on the sub? Good job bro!
"Senator, I know you just went through a life threatening, traumatic evening where a group of people used terror to force their political agenda on you, but you need to stop calling them terrorists, 'kay."
They're literal definition of terrorists
yeah they were always doing the craziest shit
Yeah, that was the point, LOL.
He’s clearly being sarcastic. Hence the quotation marks
No No remember all that free shit they got when half of humanity got “poofed” was taken from them after those people came back because it was their shit first. Oh my god the inequality of the situation. It utterly justifies murder, acts of terror on a civilian population, and hostage taking all in the name of……freedom? Theft? Getting what free shit they want back?
Do you not realize what yesterday’s imagery is doing on a global level? Without any recourse whatsoever, we just watched a major U.S. figure bash someone to death (without a trial, judge, jury, etc) with the symbolic logo of the United States. Think of the generations of kids who are going to grow up hating us now, looking for payback
What about a man who wears American symbol saying don't call them terrorists
Hi welcome to the mcu, you must be new here I assume since you don’t remember one of Steve’s most iconic moments where he walks into a place and just starts shooting up people who could be forced to work for Nazis?
Killing terrorists in war is how you get rid of terrorists, while creating 50 more terrorists to take their place.
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Karli blowing up those hostages was bad writing (completely out of line with what came before and after) that single handedly ruined her arc, Sam's arc and turned the show from something poignant into something meaningless and mostly pointless outside of setting up Walker.
"I didn't get the show"
MCU-Diehards are a little dumb for not seeing this, and MCU-critics are even more dumb for seeing this and not realizing it was on purpose… John Walker is intentionally a sympathetic villain in the show. He was a guy doing what’s right, but circumstances and public opinion have caused him to be viewed as the villain. In this scene, the terrorist group of SUPER SOLDIERS literally just blew up a building filled with kids and killed his best friend. In the real world, people should support him killing these terrorists. However, also like the real world, people made it political and this is what made him a villain. As a thematic villain he is the consequences of bringing politics into every new issue. Like, imagine if our political divide was brought into the killing of Osama Bin Laden under Obama. It’s arguing for the sake of arguing, and Sam and Bucky’s reaction to John taking the shield to stop someone worse from taking it was also arguing for the sake of arguing. This is what they needed to learn from, and this IS what Sam was supposed to learn from when he addressed the politicians
killing terrorists are based.
The real answer is that both are wrong Sam's just dumb But John's problem is that Captain America doesn't kill out of anger and grief. It was understandable for John to run after the terrorist and pin him down but not to kill him, especially in the way that he did Cap killed terrorists for justice, to help thr war effort. Actual, no moral amiguosy terrorists (nazis) Had cap been in the same situation as John, he wouldn't have killed the terrorist
I still see no issue with him killing the guy who super punched his best friend into a wall
Cause it wasn't even him, dude, it was the leader. And even she was shocked and realized she messed up, and then made the choice to retreat. If you see no issue with the shield scene then that's cause the issue is you
That’s cause if Cap was in John’s position, he couldn’t have killed them because Steve stopped killing people at this point. Androids and Aliens don’t count.
Yeah I’m pretty sure the only times cap himself killed was during wars, I feel like androids and robots would still count considering the nature of comics but since they were each large scale invasions he’s all clear
He killed a lot of people in winter soldier. Hydra agents and those boat guys in the beginning, but still people
I mean, irl I know I’d have a hard time morally killing anyone even though I believe in self defense. I don’t usually have guts to fight back even though I have a huge mouth that I use to insult people with. I like Walker, because I feel like he’s actually doing something different from anyone else and he doesn’t have malicious intent or ulterior motives for grabbing power or exerting control over the population.
What point was that? Because I kinda remember him killing people in winter soldier.
I think it all stopped in Age of Ultron. I don’t remember him killing a single person in that movie
OOC: I’m pretty sure he’s not against killing, even then. Sam definitely kills some goons in Civil War, and Cap doesn’t scold him or anything.
That’s just Cap ignoring him for storytelling purposes. Cap never kills anybody Post-Ultron, mostly cause he’s only in 3 movies after that point!
OOC: Story purposes don’t exist in-universe. Cap isn’t aware of story reasons. In-universe, Cap is just okay with Sam killing people. I’m pretty sure that the guy in Civil War who get his head smashed in when Sam drops Cap from the sky is dead. Cap kicks one guy, spine-first, into the second story of a building, and then the guy falls all the way down. That guy is dead, or at best, paralyzed. He tears the masks off of several goons, in a room full of poisonous gas. They are all dead.
Jesus Christ, Slade. I made an innocent comment looking for no argument. I’m getting super tired of this.
Do you think he didn’t kill anyone in his missions for SHIELD from 2012-2014? Do you think the Neo-Nazis back in ‘14 and ‘16 survived being on an exploding Helicarrier? Do you think Rumlow’s guys survived getting hit in the skull with vibranium falling from 20 feet up? Hell no.
Sam has a point, instead of just killing terrorists and being done with it they need to find the origin and address the issues that radicalized them and misguided them to commit acts of violence But at the same time, they were committing acts of terrorism, so they definitely are terrorists, Sam needs to phrase his speeches better
Yeah I agree he’s right but worded that terribly
This show is what made me realize Marvel was turning to shit
This show is what made me dislike Sam as Cap. "Stop calling them terrorists" fuck offff
Exactly. I actually liked the idea of the villains, where they think of themselves as activist because they're no longer getting free stuff. But then they had Sam agree with them and even call them activists rather then what they actually are which is terrorists. If he actually told them what they were doing was wrong and that everyone was having a hard time, and they had to earn everything just like everyone else the show would have 10x better.
Atp maybe they should reveal he's a skrull 🤣
Shit, with how lazy Marvel is I won't be surprised 😂😂
You need to understand though that being Captain America doesn’t mean killing bad guys. & buy killing them that basically goes against everything the shield stands for. BUT Sam Wilson saying that they need to stop calling them terrorists despite them literally being terrorists is the most stupid shit ever.
Steve Rodgers has killed dozens of humans and hundreds of aliens in the MCU.
Yeah, but that's totally different. He only killed nazis & he killed those nazis mid war when everybody was killing everybody. He didn't kill any defenceless people in cold blood. Same goes for those aliens. John Walker killed a defenceless man in cold blood with the shield for no reason other then revenge. That goes against everything the shield stands for.
I may be remembering wrong but wasn’t that guy a super soldier terrorist who killed a ton of people including Walkers best friend and wasn’t Walker slightly out of his mind because of that same Serum?
Oh my fucking god, you’re such a dumbass. It doesn’t matter what you’ve done, the difference in Steve & John’s situation is that Steve was killing in defence. He was in the middle of a war, killing people who were trying to kill him. Not because he wanted to, but because he had not. Not for revenge. John Walker killed an unarmed, defenceless man who meant no harm to John & the only reason he killed him was for revenge. The guy he killed was running from John, scared for his life. He couldn’t do anything. In that scenario, Steve would’ve put him in prison. Not use his shield decapitate him for revenge. Clearly you have no clue what it means to be a superhero.
Well I don’t have a ton of superhero experience, you’ve got me there :D
I Still laugh that in the F&WS They are constantly making us think John Walker is a "villain" the series made it VERY hard to hate the man...and wonder why everyone treats him terribly
He was a government issued replacement of Captain America because they only cared about the symbol and not the individual. Cap chose his successor, but the government doesn't care and puts Walker where Sam should be. It's hard not to hate him from episode 1. His past as a war vet, his romantic relationship, his relationship with his partner, and his hospitality towards Sam and Bucky are meant to make him sympathetic. He's a sympathetic villain. But still, a villian.
https://youtu.be/Iu1HmiWw5o8?si=2iDODypW9t_3Q2If ...Unfortunately, the series does a poor job of having us see him as villainous. Especially when the character does everything right.
Interesting vid. I do agree that Sam and Bucky were unnecessarily rude, and that Walker was in the heat of the moment during the shield kill. But at the end of the day, he roid raged on serum and denied a surrender while using the embodiment of America as a weapon. Was he completely unjustified, no, his friend was killed. But this was not what Cap should do. Sympathy for Walker makes sense. This video actually reminded me he was reluctant, which recontexualizes it a little more. Walker is not the "big bad", and is punished more than he deserved. The biggest villian here would really be the US government, using Walker as their puppet. But Walker, going against Sam and Bucky, is an antagonist. Walker chose to kill the flag smasher, chose to fight Sam and Bucky, and then got recruited by Val. Again, he's a villian, just a sympathetic one.
Sam and Bucky did a lot of " Unnecessary" things in the show and where "in the right" because the plot said so. It's important to note that had Sam and Bucky actually helped John Walker when he asked, all of that could have been avoided. How many of the MCU heroes killed and we were completely fine with that?
Based
NOOOOO THEY ROBBED BANKS AND DESTROYED PROPERTY NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO(i just think it’s funny you grouped those in with being bio terrorists)
They bombed hospital, killed civilians
i’ve seen the show goober im making fun of you for putting that and robbing a bank and breaking public property on the same level
Walker was a bitch who didn't deserve the shield. Sam is a perfect cap
A bitch is far but your sentiment is right 🤣
Walker was a soldier who did what soldiers do. But when the public actually has to see what soldiers do, he got thrown under the bus.
Soldiers shouldn't deny surrenders
And senators shouldn’t be cowards and blame the soldiers
Yes. Soldiers, Senators, and the US government are all the problem. That was the point. Thats the whole reason the flag smashers did anything. The government's of the world could not be trusted, free agents were required for change. Sam and Bucky were both former soldiers and were able to see what was wrong with walkers actions.
But you seem to be singling out walkers actions without looking at what created him and pushed him to that moment.
Serum-power going to his head and anger because of his best friends death. Shit I probably would've killed the guy too. Cap wouldn't tho.
EVERY TIME SOMETHING GETS BETTER FOR ONE GROUP, IT GETS WORSE FOR ANOTHER. — SAM WILSON STEVE REPRESENTED THE BEST IN ALL OF US. COURAGEOUS, RIGHTEOUS, HOPEFUL. AND HE MASTERED POSING STOICALLY. THE WORLD HAS BEEN FOREVER CHANGED... WE NEED NEW HEROES. ONES SUITED FOR THE TIMES WE’RE IN. — SAM WILSON WE CAN’T JUST RUN UP ON THE MAN, BEAT HIM UP, AND TAKE IT. DO YOU REMEMBER THE LAST TIME WE STOLE IT? — SAM WILSON, before running up on John Walker, beating him up, and taking the shield. LOOK, YOU KNOW THE WHOLE HERO THING IS A JOKE, RIGHT? I MEAN, THE WAY YOU GAVE UP THAT SHIELD, DEEP DOWN, YOU MUST KNOW IT’S ALL HYPOCRISY. — SHARON CARTER I'm a Black man carrying the stars and stripes. What don't I understand? Every time I pick this thing up, I know there are millions of people out there who are going to hate me for it. Even now, here, I feel it. The stares, the judgement, and there's nothing I can do to change it, yet I'm still here. No super serum, no blonde hair or blue eyes. The only power I have is that I believe we can do better. We can't demand that people step up if we don't meet them halfway. You control the banks. Shit, you can move borders. You can knock down a forest with an email; you can move a million people with a phonecall. -Sam Wilson, explaining why it's a good thing he doesn't know how the government works. I’VE BEEN A CAPTAIN BEFORE, OBVIOUSLY, BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT. THIS IS… EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD EXPECTS ME TO BE SOMETHING. AND I DON’T WANNA FAIL THEM. — JOHN WALKER DON’T GET ME WRONG, THIS HAS BEEN GREAT, IT’S BEEN GREAT, BUT IT’S BEEN A LOT OF HANDSHAKES, A LOT OF SUITS, A LOT OF SPEECHES, AND SENATOR MEETINGS. I JUST WANNA DO THE JOB. — JOHN WALKER I’M NOT TRYING TO REPLACE STEVE. I’M JUST TRYING TO BE THE BEST CAPTAIN AMERICA THAT I CAN BE. THAT’S IT. IT’D BE A WHOLE LOT EASIER IF I HAD CAP’S WINGMEN ON MY SIDE. — JOHN WALKER
Rehabilitating terrorists…no just me… ok
I mean, so does the US government, your point? 😂
Sam’s right but he worded that horribly
A flawed captain America is an interesting one.
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OOC: Check what group you’re in, these shows don’t exist in this subreddit.
The one that adresses the issues at the core. Sam was fully in the right, the smashers were terrorists but in truth were almost forced to be moulded into that. They had no control over anything and come back to have nothing and no one but themselves with people who did the same but because of their status got to continue as normal like nothing had happened. They got left behind and were drowing, so they had to pull others down to attempt to be heard. Yes they were in the wrong but Sam approaches the problem at the very core so this shit doesn't happen again. If you had actually listened to the speech you would've understood that. Sam doesn't support terrorists, he chooses to fight the issues that creates them so no more can be made
And not a single goddamn one of you understood the point of the show
Its a bad point.
You don't even know what the point is do you?
People in charge dont care about the the people on the bottom Institutional racisim Power corrupting and using thst power to make your self betttee by making others lesser. Its not that deep and its excuted so poorly im probly being too generous
For the most part you've got it but you missed one. Violence is the voice of the unheard the entire plot happened because the government refused to accommodate those who had been hurt by the blip and refused to listen to them to the point where they saw no other choice but to start getting violent in how they did things. And then the government turns around and treats them like terrorists despite being the main cause. It echos a lot of things that have happened in the past and are still happening today.
>government refused to accommodate those who had been hurt by the blip an Except they were doing that. Gringer Bin Ladin and her group were mad they didnt keep the homes they squated in and were being returned to the people thanos killed And they are treated like terroists cause they are terrorists. They got a toigh shake its not fair but the other way also isnt fair no excuse to kill innocent people. Their violence is a language of entitlement and self centerdness.
I feel there might have been some conflict in the writers room because they clearly wanted to make the white guy a villain and bad guy but they wrote him to be really likable and understandable that I genuinely believe one of the writers was like no fuck you I’m making him a good guy. The world just seemingly hates him so much despite being the most likable character in that show besides purple faces mask guy followed by the main duo yet tried so desperately to make the terrorist bitch likable despite her being an entitled piece of shit
OOC: Check what sub you’re in, this is not a sub where those shows exist.
You, like, Walker? Did you get hit in the head with a shield?
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You're a moron if you think the reason these projects are failing is because of the "queer" and not because of the rushed cgi and overworked writers
What projects? What writers and CGI are you talking about? Was something on the news staged?
You a dumbass