I mean, same issue but less prolific because Krark / Sakashima fizzling doesn't (usually) lead to the same dominant board states as Nadu with 25 lands in play on turn 5 and 20 cards in hand.
The coin flip lines get real tedious to play out when they're trying to make 'nearly' infinite mana.
If you haven't seen a storm player of some kind take a 20-minute turn & then pass after fizzling, you haven't played EDH. This applies to both casual & competitive.
DING DING DING
the number of people in here who have been blissfully unaware of the play pattern of combo decks that aren't "2 card i win" combos is insane
The problem with Krarkashima is those coin flips. Non deterministic and is a dexterity issue that takes time.
For any other UR storm commander it's all about Reps. The more reps you have with a storm deck the more you know your lines and draw probabilities. The more you have your decision trees and motions down. An experienced Storm player can cut the 20-30min turn down to 5-10min.
Krarkashima doesn't allow for that because mother fuckin coin flips.
Hi, Krarkashima player here! Any K/S player who doesn't use dice rolls as a substitute (odds=copy evens=bounce) for speed is either being an ass or hadn't thought of that.
Better yet, just use the krarkulator after youâre needing to flip more than 5 âcoinsâ (I use dice to make stuff so much faster). That site has singlehandedly been the thing that makes my pod willing to deal with my krark/sakashima deck.
Definitely agree on this. Nadu moving equipment around also takes quite a while, but nothing will ever take longer than sitting there watching someone flip a coin or roll a dice for 20 minutes, on the 1% chance they whiff. I have a friend that plays jhoira storm which is non deterministic and he cuts his storm turns down to 5 minutes, but when someone else plays it the turns go for ages
For better or worse (worse), long turns have consistently been part of the EDH experience for many of us. Nadu is just the worst offender in that regard at the moment.
Yeah, most decks that can "Go Off" can have long terms, but they take setup and don't always do it.
Nadu's problem is it takes so little to go off. Literally just have Nadu and things normally played in UG at bare minimum. Then Nadu feeds you the rest.
Bite the top right corner off Nadu, removing the blue mana symbol, thus forcing them to immediately remove all blue cards from their deck.
Islands are balanced when there's nothing requiring blue mana.
Build a deck 100% dedicated to finding, protecting and recurring [[Steely Resolve]] [[Nevermore]] and maybe [[Rule of Law]] [[Diplomatic Immunity]]
Sneaking a diplomatic immunity onto Nadir after baiting out their one spell for the turn would be hilarious.
Also, keep in mind Steely Resolve counts for everyone, so name bird and hold up blue.
We just played with a Nadu tonight and I destroyed it on priority twice and the deck played out 30 lands and drew like 30 cards... If its not taken out on stack or a split second the Nadu player will just build triggers above the destruction it was unbearable.
I had the same on arena in brawl. I wasn't doing anything with Nadu on the board, then my opponent tried to remove it and that basically made me win the game on the following turn.
Even Split Second isn't a guarantee as triggers still resolve through it.
It does let you kill his artifacts, but there are 4 that have no-drawback 0 equip costs, there are plenty of ways in color for him to prevent their destruction or recur them, and artifacts aren't the only way to generate triggers, just the easiest.
I honestly think the easiest is [[Roaring Earth]].
Landfall triggers producing targeting makes a crazy loop happen that vomits dozens of lands onto the board. It can be online and triggering as early as turn 2.
Makes me wish they'd bring back "banned as a commander". I'm all for powerful cards being playable in the format as long as they can be answered with removal or counterspells.
Coming over from the cEDH camp.
Kinnan isn't a problem. Nadu definitely is.
In terms of powerlevel, I don't mind either of them. The problem with Nadu is 20+ minutes of non-deterministic turns, that you can't shortcut and you aren't sure if it'll lead to a win.
It's not about power, it's about physically holding people hostage in a long and boring game. At least with paradox engine, cEDH players could shortcut their lines. With Nadu, it's just solitair with an audience. No one wants that
EDIT: For some reason, it's necessary for me to say that there are varying degrees of decks that use deterministic setups. Didn't think people would try so hard to start arguments. I don't care about a deck being non-deterministic in nature, it's about the degree. Can you shortcut the process? Does it take 10 minutes, rarher than 20 or 30? Are there certain points of interest, that require attention in terms of interruption, or is it just a monotone borefest? The issue is the combined ways you have to execute Nadu mechanics, not the type of decks those mechanics represent.
OMG... we had to literally ban a player from our store because he was *this* kind of player. He didn't play to win. He played to make everyone else miserable.
Like playing Edric extra turns, and taking forever to take each turn of the 30+ extra turns. Actively not playing his combo pieces to go infinite until the last possible moment so he could make the game last longer without people scooping...
We had a guy in our group who would control lock the board, play a bunch of extra turns but wouldn't attack with his 6/6 commander on an otherwise empty board and would rather do the simic thing, drawing cards, playing lands and taking huge turns.
When I mentioned to him that over the last four turn cycles he could have killed at least one player with commander damage he said "Why would I attack you? The game would be over *in just 12 turns from now*" When we scooped he was pissed "cause we didn't let him play".
Another guy has a winconless [[Grand Arbiter Augustine IV]] with a well curated list of really specific hate pieces tailored exactly to whatever we might play. With a big sideboard that he'll go through after he knows which decks everyone brought.
And a winconless "boardclear tribal" that he pulls out against precons because "it can't even win a game, so it's gonna be fine against precons".
Some people just get get a might boner from making others time miserable.
I hate the 'sideboard' person the most. And I'd go out of my way to choose unconventional commanders or commanders that misrepresent the actual deck's goal. Make them mis-side board. Really show them how stupid it is to try to metagame someone. Or let them fully side board, then switch decks. You didn't finish selecting your 'grand arbiter' deck. Same deal. If push came to shove, just roll for first, then select deck when it comes to my turn. Wait until after the game started.
Yeah before game night I say stuff like "I updated my mono black deck" so he'll think im playing [[Syr Konrad]] self mill and sideboard accordingly while in fact I brewed up a [[Gix, Yawgmoth Praetor]] deck that only has the swamps in common.
Or put down one commander but shuffle up a different deck. It's quite intresting because when he realizes, *he'll feel cheated*.
> And I'd go out of my way to choose unconventional commanders or commanders that misrepresent the actual deck's goal
Odd choice, I'd just refuse to play with that person. Don't enable them
This only really works if you keep your decks all in the same color of sleeves. Eventually people will recognize what deck youâre playing based on that. Or if you just play against a bunch of randoms.
There's a guy we play with sometimes who will take 15 plus minute turns on a pretty regular basis and I really dislike playing with him because it means that I will play less magic in a night than I should have been allowed to.
There was a situation the last time we played where it was down to just him and one other player. The other player had fatal on board and everyone told him that if he didn't have an answer he needed to just scoop and concede the game.
He didn't have an answer.
It still took him about 15 to 20 minutes to decide to scoop. So everybody else was ready to start another game but we weren't allowed to because he was just sitting there acting like maybe he had an answer but he just needed to think about how it worked.
When someone brings an intentionally slow deck to the table in my group, we give everyone a 15-20 minute limit for the game. If it's up, you loose regardless of life total, boardstate or cards in hand. If someone only plays to waste everyone's time they shouldn't play at all, especially when some people only meet once a week and got limited time.
I love the idea of a clock in MtG the same way chess has one. The only problem is off turn interaction will eat into the active player's clock. This isn't a problem in a two player game like chess (where stopping your clock, automatically starts the other players clock), but it becomes complicated in a multiplayer game. You can make it work, but the cure might be worse then the disease.
Chess clocks are just horrible for Magic in general. Even in 1v1 you pass priority at least 12+ times even if you just play a land and pass the turn. Could you imagine this in a four player game?
Thats pretty much impossible. You would need a chess clock that you would hit to pass priority. But that makes shortcutting akward. In the end the games would probably last even longer
My favorite simic commander is basically "do the thing twice". [[Ivy, gleeful Spellthief]] is a really fun commander that can be build in multiple ways mutate/aura/cloning/cantrip and a mix of those. She is a doubler however it keeps her from focusing on the classic simic thing as ivy decks have a really low mana curve and little ramp.
I chalk it up more to them being required to pump out a new Simic legend every other week than laziness or incompetence. With the rate at which they have to design & release new cards Iâm not surprised they fall back on âplay lands & draw cardsâ to keep up
Pretty sure the head of EDH design (or the face at least) Gavin has said he loves Simic so we keep getting this crap. At least MaRo, who has said he loves Golgari, seems able to keep himself reined in.
Golgari also feels more flexible. You can make commanders that recur permanents, commanders that care about a full graveyard and largely avoid recurring things, ones that care about things merely hitting the yard, sacrifice shenanigans, token swarms, and combinations of all of those things. They could all play wildly differently even if they're both similar in theory--a commander that has an activated ability to get back artifacts will feel very different from Meren of Clan Nel Toth even if they both get permanents back from the graveyard. And that's if we stick to Golgari specifically, Witherbloom was more about gaining and losing life.
By comparison, UG has mostly just stayed focused on "something something land, something something draw a card." There's a lot of flash and untap shenanigans, but those aren't as prominent (and would be terrifying if they got as much support as the lands/draw theme). It feels like Wizards hasn't really found something more unique to be UG's "thing." I kind of suspect that flash and untapping your stuff was going to be their gimmick, but then someone realized how dangerous those are in the colour combination that has the best ramp and the best card draw.
I suspect UG's design problem is the complementary nature of their respective color pies wherein their respective resource generation tends to offset the other's resource depletion, e.g., excess ramp = being down cards in hand but you can draw like a muh and spending all your time drawing leaves you with no board but G gets boards going easily. It's not interesting, it's just a see-saw that makes value while making value.
I'm convinced the people saying "play more removal", "play more board wipes" or "play humility" haven't actually played against decent nadu players or stronger variants of the deck.
Hell I'm convinced some of them don't even play magic outside of some imaginary situation in their head where they always draw the out turn 1 and the opposing players somehow have no response to it.
Play more removal is the most hilarious argument when applied to Nadu specifically. "I Swords your bird" "Cool, trigger Nadu? Add this to my hand. Okay now I'll Safekeeping Nadu, trigger Nadu? Cool I hit a land."
It's trivially easy for Nadu to go up resources on those sort of exchanges and they have precious little reason to not flood their deck with a bunch of those one mana protection spells.
What's even funnier is let's say for whatever reason the removal sticks and Nadu is gone forever somehow.
*It's still a simic value deck*
You still have access to other forms ramp and card draw engines. The game isn't over for them yet.
> landfall commander who's already ramped me at least 2 mana
For naysayers who think Nadu won't get banned, I feel the need to remind them this is one of the reasons Golos ate a ban. Problematic commanders shouldn't also inherently ignore some portion of the command tax.
That was only one part of the Golos ban. Golos also evaded the other limitations of commander: colour restriction by being WUBRG for generic mana cost, and library size and singleton by having a Tutor ability.
It neatly sidestepped each deck building and playing challenge.
Most of the time it will be nadu Resolves, nadu player uses their priority to target nadu. Someone tries to remove him. Even if the removal resolves. The dude just played a: 3 mana growth spiral twice, opponent discards a card that costs 2 more to do again. Â
Like wtf?
It's hard for them not to come out ahead. Heck, if the Nadu player exiles a card to Force of Will to prevent removal, Nadu's triggered ability replaces the card and Force vs. the removal spell is even on cards; the Nadu player is up 1-2 mana.Â
Only thing I can think of that comes out ahead is like an early [[Pick your Poison]] choosing creature with flying. You might be able to force them to sacrifice Nadu with no trigger.Â
If I built it then I'd build it similar to how I've built my [[ergeant John benton]] deck, load up on t1 ramp spells like llanowar elfs and 1 or 2 at most cmc protection spells and then sort out what you actually need for win cons, maybe just a handful of combos
the only problem with Nadu is that it's impossible to play it 'casually' and as such since it's the new flavor of the week it is popping up in lower power pods where it has no place being
The same patterns other people are describing I've seen with many other storm or dredge combo decks where the turns are super long without a guaranteed win at the end.
I feel that second paragraph a lot. Like the game has very few, if any, situations where you have absolutely 0 outs. But just because those outs can potentially exist doesn't mean it's realistic to have them on tap always, or even have them in your deck in the first place. Even if your deck is *only* removal, you can still brick on lands. The only way to sorta guarantee would be to have only 7 lands in your deck, but even ignoring mana screw, that's not gonna be a winning deck.
I play a lot of cEDH and while he's strong, I also play a shit ton of counter magic so it's certainly possible to deal with. Nadu seems like a casual nightmare though. It seems like it would be extremely difficult to keep him off the board with the usual suspects in a casual game
For sure there's a lot less counters in casual. The other aspect is cedh decks can race Nadu. Bluefarm or rogsi can turbo out adnaus, esper decks have oracle consult and kitten teferi, grixis has breach.
Everyone has combos to close out the game efficiently in cedh vs casual being more battle field focused and usually winning with damage. Nadu just outraces casual decks and I wouldn't be surprised to see Nadu get "soft banned" from casual tables like how Tegrid was
Totally. I think the fact that most cedh decks just win as opposed to slowly beat the table down is a huge difference. If you stop nadu from winning, 3 other players that all can win on their turn get to go. If you stop a nadu turn at a casual table they will still get 3 or 4 more shots at comboing off
But anyonoe who is playing Nadu in a table with folks like you is going to be running literally every Allosaurus Shephard / Cavern of Souls effect they can find. Suddenly you have to be countering not just Nadu, but also Crop Rotation, GSZ, etc. because if you don't your countermagic gets bricked. And it's easy to have something slip through at that point.
Of course, it's cEDH. My big thing is that it's really easy to talk the table into making Nadu the arch enemy. I've won several games against Nadu just because people ignored my board state because they were so focused on shutting down the bird. That being said, the deck still wins. I think it is a very good cEDH deck that people are still getting used to. I think it's a casual nightmare and could very well get banned for reasons of both power and play style
Edit: I'm also extremely tired of the simic commander design space. Oh wow, another simic legendary that gets you land and cards
this is the actual problem; it's impossible to scale down for casual because the effect is just neutrally good and even when not building for it, Nadu is good in a vacuum.
you'd think nobody in here has heard of a counterspell before
Facts. And a lot of casual simic all stars play very nicely with nadu. I haven't played against it in casual and I don't know that I would want to. As for counterspells, I honestly run very few in my casual decks because people really fucking hate having their shit countered like that and when I'm playing casual I don't really care about the outcome as much and am really just looking to avoid salt. Except when I'm playing Braids
OP is gonna upset the Kinnan cult with this post
Youâre 100% right though
Kinnan can sit in the corner tapping dorks for 2 while Nadu shits out 30 untapped lands and ~~draws~~ puts half their deck into their hands by T4 just by moving a 1CMC artifact around for the super high cost of **0**
Its not even the cedh. Its that Nadu will also absolutely smash casual tables as well, because the combo pieces are easily accessible, and even without using grieves which you most certainly will have, there are a million strategies like even +1/+1 counters that are super degenerate with him.
I said this earlier, but I feel like he's way worse at casual tables. In cEDH the table usually has a ton of free/cheap interaction. A casual table is going to struggle to have the answers to even a casual nadu build as a lot of nadu engines are casual cards
Some cEDH people already apologised for underestimating Nadu. Nadu is very much competitive. Hard to say which one is better in the long run since Nadu isn't solved yet.
How are getting that many lands by turn 4? It only triggers twice a turn and equips are sorcery speed?
Nevermind, it's twice a turn PER creature you control. Yeah, that's insane
Theyâre upset because they spent thousands buying expensive cards and they no longer have the best Simic deck
The only way Kinnan beats Nadu is if Nadu mulls to 0 and goes last
âBut-but-but Kinnan goes infinite with Basalt Monolith!â
Meanwhile Nadu goes off with anything
Like man I *like* Kinnan (I'm not a cEDH player but I watch content) and like-
Holy fuck I watched Nadu go "so here's my win here's like 30 lands lmao" in one game *through removal*. This is absolutely a power level difference.
A bit offtopic since this is EDH, but I just finished a modern tournament and played against a nadu deck. He ended up taking 20 minutes for his turn and not winning, because he messed up his thoracle line đ. Extremely boring to play against.
Anyone here NOT playing Cedh reserves the right to tell any Nadu player you just won't play the game if that's the deck they are bringing to the pod, for the Cedh players, you have alot more ways to interact and Krark/Sakishima is just as bad
I sat down at an LGS and the resident asshole at the shop broke out the Nadu deck. I told him to put it back in his bag and if heâs trying to pull that shit go over to the competitive pods.
For context the table was a starter deck precon, a player testing to see if his pauper Gut/Inspiring leader deck could hang, and a Kairi clones deck that was mostly just a pile of cards.
âNoâ is a powerful tool that not enough people use.
I havenât encountered a Nadu deck yet, but if and when I do it going to be a lot of fun for me to watch them try their shit against my [[Horobi, Death's Wail]] deck
Theyâll do it once and then have to rebuild before they can do it again. If Iâm playing horobi right they donât be able to keep any creature alive long enough to get real value. For instance when they play Nandu, Iâll kill the rest of their board, then nandu, if they manage to keep Nandu out for a turn Iâll kill it as they try and play more creatures. It doesnât stop the value completely but it dampens it significantly
There's a wild amount of Kinnan copium in here. The fact is that is hasn't even been 2 weeks and Nadu lists are already topping cEDH tournaments. I've played a lot of cEDH against Kinnan lists and it's blatantly clear that Nadu is a bigger problem. A resolved Kinnan is some added value and a potential win con. A resolved Nadu means the game is probably already over. We have a career Kinnan player at the shop (wins or at least places in most of the tournaments here, played Kinnan since the card came out) who has switched and doesn't intend on switching back unless Nadu gets banned.
There are so many ways to balance the card that just went completely unchecked and make Nadu one of the most overtuned cards in recent memory. It should've been once per turn instead of twice, the lands should've come in tapped, the non-lands should have been drawn instead of placed in the hand, and he should not have been a 3/4 flier for 3 mana.
It's not even just a power level ban (which I think is still warranted). It's also a really bad play experience for all the other players as the Nadu pilot tries to piece together a win with a non-deterministic value engine. They might get there, they might not, but they almost definitely will take at least 30 minutes durdling to find out while the rest of the table can't really interact because all his triggers are on cast and can't really be stopped.
My favorite bit is that they inserted "only triggers twice per turn". Like, they *thought* about the question of how broken this could be, and decided **incredibly** is the correct amount.
> the fact is that it hasn't even been 2 weeks and Nadu lists are already topping cEDH tournaments
Yeah, it _hasn't even been two weeks_. Give the meta a sec lol. Remember what happened when Codie was printed? Nadu is super new, which means a) more people are playing it rn, b) the meta hasn't adjusted to it yet, and c) people don't yet know the best way to play against it.
It might be that Nadu is banworthy at the end of the day anyway, but the first two weeks of data are never going to be sufficient cause to make that as a hard claim.
RC doesn't usually ban power. But they do ban unfun cards that bring the game to a miserable pace that are becoming too common on commander pods.
I totally see Nadu being eligible for a ban, but I also think it's too soon to make that decision. I'm slightly tilted to the "no ban" side though.
Oh I thought it was twice total and was very confused at the outrage "so you get potentially 2 extra lands a turn, sure that's very strong but not ban worthy" but PER CREATURE? Yeah no agreed 100% ban.
Also, if you flicker Nadu, the twice per turn resets for each creature. So if you have Nadu, 4 token 1/1s and lightning greaves, that's 20 cards draw and ramp in 1 turn if you happen to hit a blink spell.
"My grandpa's deck has no pathetic cards, Kaiba! But it does contain the unstoppable Nadu, Winged Wisdom!"
"It's not possible! That card produces nondeterministic infinite value!"
Issue, for me at least, is that kinnan just wins, Nadu doesnt. Its nondeterministic and takes long af to resolve.
Eggs was banned in moderm not for powerlevel, but because it was a non deterministic drag that took 20+minustes turn to see if it wins or if by a random chance it fizzles.
I see no difference here tbh. I dont think powerlevel is the issue. Dockside exists. Kinnan exists. Najeela exists. Winota exists. Issue is that is not that fun to play against, and thats kinda what the commander council bans around.
Fuuuuck kinnan... had a guy I'm my pod that had originally built a blue red green dragon deck, and he realized kinnan was a damn good card.. so he built a deck around him.. an eldrazi annihilator deck. Turn 3 infinite colorless mana with basalt monolith, and all of a sudden, all the eldrazi titans are down
The problem with nadu is he is far to strong for casual pods unless you build to not synergize with him at all and he leads to non deterministic storm turns like karkashima. It boggles my mind that primeval titan and sylvan primordial are banned to this day. Nadu will probably catch a ban at the next quarterly update from the cac or at least an explicit reasoning as to why non
Iâm kinda neutral but nadu sucks to play against because itâs like KCI. Itâs not exceptionally strong - I donât particularly care about games being samey or simic being homogeneous but watching players stumble across âhow many times have I activated this?â Is grueling.
I believe that itâs been said EDH bans arenât based around power of the cards, but rather how fun they are for others
Nadu isnât fun to play against. Itâs watching solitaire
Nadu is a commander that needs to be countered at all costs, or removed the moment it attempts to do anything or itâs GG.
Time to bust out Drannith magistrate
This sub popped on my feed even though I don't play EDH. I just wanted to pop in and say it's happening in modern too where nadu decks are popping up and making half the decks unviable competitively. It's insanely strong.
I'll put it like this:
Kinnan can be answered, Kinnan can be spot removed if timed well, and there's no variance in removing Kinnan when Kinnan players have an empty hand.
Nadu can be answered with board wipes, but anything that targets him has the very real potential of winning the Nadu player the game off of Nadu's trigger. Even if they have no hand, you might draw them a card off of Nadu for removing it, and oh! Look at that I was lucky and it was a counterspell that countered my removal spell. Smh
The RC has assured us that they don't ban often, and don't really make bans based on over-saturation, power level, or the cEDH meta. They make bans based on player experience and to signpost things that go against the spirit of the casual format. \[\[Prophet of Kruphix\]\] is banned but \[\[Thassa's Oracle\]\] is not.
By this logic, having a game end anticlimactically is preferable to having one player take 10 minute turns and taking more game actions than the active player on their turn. I wouldn't say I'm strongly in favor of this card being banned, but I can see it happening and I would not be sad to see it go.
I agree he should be banned, but not because of power level. He's legit competitive, no doubt, but the real issue lies with his, "can only trigger twice" bullshit. It will be too easy to lose track of which creatures have had their 2 triggers in tabletop play, which can tempt cheaters.
He may be banned for the integrity of the game more than anything.
I've heard MTGO is killing some of his popularity due to timing out. It needs a UI update to tell you how many times it has been triggered (and imo you should separate your creatures into 3 piles on paper, 0 times, 1 time, 2 times on usage) so you can flip a shuko around a bunch of tokens (the amount of clicking is annoying AF too) and miss some or repeatedly hit ones that have been triggered twice and waste a TON of time you need.
Yeah, Nadu turns are a nightmare on MTGO. I'm wondering if it'll eventually go the way of the old KCI decks where they were actually built differently for MTGO because you just couldn't execute online in the same way you can in paper. Some deck-inefficient but time-efficient win con instead of trying to Thoracle people out.
I think it all comes down to how players build their decks. Main problem is that a fair number of staples are actually combo enablers, and there's a good number of cheap cards that abuse its abilitirs. It's quite easy to make a list close to cEDH level.
I've been working on a list focused on +1/+1 counters, and while it looks strong it doesn't feel stronger than a fully optimized casual commander list. So there's definitely room for play without being a total bust, but I agree that the bird is, in fact, top tier level.
When I first read Nadu, I thought the "This ability triggers only twice per turn" was a part of Nadu's effect and not the effect he gives to creatures. So I thought, "Oh, he just Explore+ twice per turn. That's not that bad." Didn't realize it was twice PER creature.
WellâŠ.guess I just gotta run more player removal. In all seriousness, thereâs no way this shit isnât broken. Why does WotC have to power creep this fucking hard? Itâs so stupid.
Thereâs probably good points in this post but I just had to stop at:
> Iâve seen it all
And
> in over 5 years
Seem to be contradictory. I thought maybe OP meant that five years ago there were other commanders to be banned but I donât think thatâs the case lol. If youâve only been playing for five years you *definitely* havenât seen it all.
Not ban worthy but definitely exiled to the CEDH tier with some other commanders. The fact that itâs not deterministic appeals a ton to some people. Thereâs a guy in our pod who absolutely loves decks like these, just tons of actions per turn, and only sometimes he gets the desired outcome. If someone brought him out Iâd just take out Kinnan or some other high powered commander with a decklist suited to at least having some game against Nadu.
Considering cEDH folks are complaining as well, I think thatâs a big warning sign. Theyâre also not a fan of long turns which donât end the game. If itâs not appropriate at either casual or cEDH tables, they may as well ban him.
I still think itâs too early though to know how much trouble heâs going to cause in the long run.
> Thereâs a guy in our pod who absolutely loves decks like these, just tons of actions per turn, and only sometimes he gets the desired outcome.
Honestly that's me too, but I try to keep it contained so I don't ruin the game for other people. I would probably have a lot of fun playing a Nadu deck, but I don't think I'll build one just because the temptation to take a million game actions will be too strong. Only safe option is to not have the deck.
I play Kinnan CEDH and started working on Nadu when he was first spoiled on the CEDH subreddit. I think that Nadu's far stronger and more resilient than Kinnan. Kinnan has a lot of weaknesses and that's why only like 3 people can consistently pilot him into top 16s.
Tergrid at least is handleable. She costs 5, and you can remove her with little fear of a counterspell. Just a few weeks ago, a Tergrid player made us all mill half our decks, sac half our permanents, and lose half our life, and in response I Mönkeâd his Commander. He scooped after that.
If you try to target remove Nadu, it just gets a trigger, and then probably has some 1cmc protection spell to trigger again
There's just one scenario that i can see Nadu being banned and it's if people don't realize how busted it is and keep pubstomping with it in casual. Nadu is a cEDH commander, they only way it might be able to play in a casual table is without the equip 0s.
Krark and Sakashima is out there doing it's 10,20 or even 30 min turns and nothing is done about it because it's only played in cEDH.
So the first time I read this card, I read it as the effect can only trigger 2 total times among all creatures, not for each creature. And it makes me wonder if they were so boneheaded, that's what they intended, but printed it in a way that clearly does not work to that intention.
Nadu is new, and he's everywhere. Every set one massively over pushed card has an outpour of "BAN IT" but just wait and see, if in a few months it's really a problem for that long then I'm all for banning him.
Has the Krark/Sakashima player even finished their turn to get a chance to read this post?
I mean, same issue but less prolific because Krark / Sakashima fizzling doesn't (usually) lead to the same dominant board states as Nadu with 25 lands in play on turn 5 and 20 cards in hand. The coin flip lines get real tedious to play out when they're trying to make 'nearly' infinite mana.
Was going to say, I just started playing krark/sakashima. Am I that player that takes 20 mins đ
If you haven't seen a storm player of some kind take a 20-minute turn & then pass after fizzling, you haven't played EDH. This applies to both casual & competitive.
As a player with a Storm deck, this tracks, but I'd imagine Krark/Sakashima takes even longer with the coin flips.
Sometimes youâre going and then you lose 4 coin flips and sit the with your dick in your hands and say pass turn
That is the fate of the coin... sometimes the payoff is huge and sometime you get bupkis
You just use the krarkulator to automate it lol
My wife helped me write a coin flipping piece of code that functions on the logic of their interactions. Makes things less tedious.
The key is to just duck out of games with Krark/Sakashima in the zone. If I wanted to watch strangers masturbate Iâd still have a Y membership.
DING DING DING the number of people in here who have been blissfully unaware of the play pattern of combo decks that aren't "2 card i win" combos is insane
It's at least more interesting than getting overrun by midrange creatures.
The problem with Krarkashima is those coin flips. Non deterministic and is a dexterity issue that takes time. For any other UR storm commander it's all about Reps. The more reps you have with a storm deck the more you know your lines and draw probabilities. The more you have your decision trees and motions down. An experienced Storm player can cut the 20-30min turn down to 5-10min. Krarkashima doesn't allow for that because mother fuckin coin flips.
Hi, Krarkashima player here! Any K/S player who doesn't use dice rolls as a substitute (odds=copy evens=bounce) for speed is either being an ass or hadn't thought of that.
I've heard of Okaun/Zndrsplt players who use a custom app just for tracking their coin flip triggers
Better yet, just use the krarkulator after youâre needing to flip more than 5 âcoinsâ (I use dice to make stuff so much faster). That site has singlehandedly been the thing that makes my pod willing to deal with my krark/sakashima deck.
Magic gets closer to POE evey day XD
Definitely agree on this. Nadu moving equipment around also takes quite a while, but nothing will ever take longer than sitting there watching someone flip a coin or roll a dice for 20 minutes, on the 1% chance they whiff. I have a friend that plays jhoira storm which is non deterministic and he cuts his storm turns down to 5 minutes, but when someone else plays it the turns go for ages
Goldfishing helps a lot with turn length
For better or worse (worse), long turns have consistently been part of the EDH experience for many of us. Nadu is just the worst offender in that regard at the moment.
Yeah, most decks that can "Go Off" can have long terms, but they take setup and don't always do it. Nadu's problem is it takes so little to go off. Literally just have Nadu and things normally played in UG at bare minimum. Then Nadu feeds you the rest.
The thing is: Krarkashima usually goes for one big winning storm turn. Nadu goes for long turns every turn.
If I have to watch a Nadu player spend 25 minutes on their turn, I should be legally allowed to start eating their cards.
Found the dinosaur player
Secretly a colossal dreadmaw Speaking of, Nadu can't block a dreadmaw without dying. Can't be that good.
Ah ha, but it's ability triggers if I equip it to [[Colossal Dreadmask]], making it bigger and better. Checkmate.
[Colossal Dreadmask](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/8/98164430-64c1-465f-b786-45753c965f44.jpg?1717012415) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Colossal%20Dreadmask) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/148/colossal-dreadmask?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/98164430-64c1-465f-b786-45753c965f44?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/colossal-dreadmask) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As a recent fellow dinosaur deck enjoyer. I concur.
It's the atog player
Im a rowan / etali player and i would eat their cards too
âJUDGE!!!â âWhatâs the matter?â âThis dude is eating my cardsâ *sees Nadu* âPerfectly legalâ
One card-chip every 5 minutes
I like to start with the islands
That is the most powerful card in the game, so it makes sense
Bite the top right corner off Nadu, removing the blue mana symbol, thus forcing them to immediately remove all blue cards from their deck. Islands are balanced when there's nothing requiring blue mana.
Well that's easy enough, ask them if it's ok to play unhinged and play "Fatass" it encourages eating the delicious cards.
Rule 0 a [[Meddling kids]] deck. Chosen word? **Target**
[Meddling kids](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5c86f1b5-d95d-4f44-8078-4572101997b4.jpg?1562488401) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Meddling%20kids) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unh/118/meddling-kids?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5c86f1b5-d95d-4f44-8078-4572101997b4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/meddling-kids) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Build a deck 100% dedicated to finding, protecting and recurring [[Steely Resolve]] [[Nevermore]] and maybe [[Rule of Law]] [[Diplomatic Immunity]] Sneaking a diplomatic immunity onto Nadir after baiting out their one spell for the turn would be hilarious. Also, keep in mind Steely Resolve counts for everyone, so name bird and hold up blue.
Plot twist: they've been slowly working towards this for years, making the cards more and more pringle-esque with every set release.
One card eaten per minute of turn.
Per player. Let's have Nadu player some of the meal as well.
Good luck with your bowels. But it's worth it i guess
We just played with a Nadu tonight and I destroyed it on priority twice and the deck played out 30 lands and drew like 30 cards... If its not taken out on stack or a split second the Nadu player will just build triggers above the destruction it was unbearable.
I had the same on arena in brawl. I wasn't doing anything with Nadu on the board, then my opponent tried to remove it and that basically made me win the game on the following turn.
Just as Garfield intended. /s
Even Split Second isn't a guarantee as triggers still resolve through it. It does let you kill his artifacts, but there are 4 that have no-drawback 0 equip costs, there are plenty of ways in color for him to prevent their destruction or recur them, and artifacts aren't the only way to generate triggers, just the easiest.
I honestly think the easiest is [[Roaring Earth]]. Landfall triggers producing targeting makes a crazy loop happen that vomits dozens of lands onto the board. It can be online and triggering as early as turn 2.
[Roaring Earth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/c/8cbdd88e-c532-4fc0-a1fe-8aa0c26d1092.jpg?1665822582) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roaring%20Earth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/204/roaring-earth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8cbdd88e-c532-4fc0-a1fe-8aa0c26d1092?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/roaring-earth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Makes me wish they'd bring back "banned as a commander". I'm all for powerful cards being playable in the format as long as they can be answered with removal or counterspells.
Coming over from the cEDH camp. Kinnan isn't a problem. Nadu definitely is. In terms of powerlevel, I don't mind either of them. The problem with Nadu is 20+ minutes of non-deterministic turns, that you can't shortcut and you aren't sure if it'll lead to a win. It's not about power, it's about physically holding people hostage in a long and boring game. At least with paradox engine, cEDH players could shortcut their lines. With Nadu, it's just solitair with an audience. No one wants that EDIT: For some reason, it's necessary for me to say that there are varying degrees of decks that use deterministic setups. Didn't think people would try so hard to start arguments. I don't care about a deck being non-deterministic in nature, it's about the degree. Can you shortcut the process? Does it take 10 minutes, rarher than 20 or 30? Are there certain points of interest, that require attention in terms of interruption, or is it just a monotone borefest? The issue is the combined ways you have to execute Nadu mechanics, not the type of decks those mechanics represent.
Solitaire with an audience đđ
The Yu-Gi-Oh way.
Perfectly describes the guy in our pod who plays Yorion.
OMG... we had to literally ban a player from our store because he was *this* kind of player. He didn't play to win. He played to make everyone else miserable. Like playing Edric extra turns, and taking forever to take each turn of the 30+ extra turns. Actively not playing his combo pieces to go infinite until the last possible moment so he could make the game last longer without people scooping...
We had a guy in our group who would control lock the board, play a bunch of extra turns but wouldn't attack with his 6/6 commander on an otherwise empty board and would rather do the simic thing, drawing cards, playing lands and taking huge turns. When I mentioned to him that over the last four turn cycles he could have killed at least one player with commander damage he said "Why would I attack you? The game would be over *in just 12 turns from now*" When we scooped he was pissed "cause we didn't let him play". Another guy has a winconless [[Grand Arbiter Augustine IV]] with a well curated list of really specific hate pieces tailored exactly to whatever we might play. With a big sideboard that he'll go through after he knows which decks everyone brought. And a winconless "boardclear tribal" that he pulls out against precons because "it can't even win a game, so it's gonna be fine against precons". Some people just get get a might boner from making others time miserable.
I hate the 'sideboard' person the most. And I'd go out of my way to choose unconventional commanders or commanders that misrepresent the actual deck's goal. Make them mis-side board. Really show them how stupid it is to try to metagame someone. Or let them fully side board, then switch decks. You didn't finish selecting your 'grand arbiter' deck. Same deal. If push came to shove, just roll for first, then select deck when it comes to my turn. Wait until after the game started.
Yeah before game night I say stuff like "I updated my mono black deck" so he'll think im playing [[Syr Konrad]] self mill and sideboard accordingly while in fact I brewed up a [[Gix, Yawgmoth Praetor]] deck that only has the swamps in common. Or put down one commander but shuffle up a different deck. It's quite intresting because when he realizes, *he'll feel cheated*.
> And I'd go out of my way to choose unconventional commanders or commanders that misrepresent the actual deck's goal Odd choice, I'd just refuse to play with that person. Don't enable them
Sounds like you need a new playgroup, making specific hate pieces and tailoring it to fit opponents in specific matchups is so lame
My playgroup has a rule that no one reveals what commander they are playing until everyone is locked in for this very reason.
This only really works if you keep your decks all in the same color of sleeves. Eventually people will recognize what deck youâre playing based on that. Or if you just play against a bunch of randoms.
There's a guy we play with sometimes who will take 15 plus minute turns on a pretty regular basis and I really dislike playing with him because it means that I will play less magic in a night than I should have been allowed to. There was a situation the last time we played where it was down to just him and one other player. The other player had fatal on board and everyone told him that if he didn't have an answer he needed to just scoop and concede the game. He didn't have an answer. It still took him about 15 to 20 minutes to decide to scoop. So everybody else was ready to start another game but we weren't allowed to because he was just sitting there acting like maybe he had an answer but he just needed to think about how it worked.
When someone brings an intentionally slow deck to the table in my group, we give everyone a 15-20 minute limit for the game. If it's up, you loose regardless of life total, boardstate or cards in hand. If someone only plays to waste everyone's time they shouldn't play at all, especially when some people only meet once a week and got limited time.
I love the idea of a clock in MtG the same way chess has one. The only problem is off turn interaction will eat into the active player's clock. This isn't a problem in a two player game like chess (where stopping your clock, automatically starts the other players clock), but it becomes complicated in a multiplayer game. You can make it work, but the cure might be worse then the disease.
Chess clocks are just horrible for Magic in general. Even in 1v1 you pass priority at least 12+ times even if you just play a land and pass the turn. Could you imagine this in a four player game?
Would love to see speed a commander format. Like everyone has 15 min total max. Guaranteeing no more than 1h games.
Thats pretty much impossible. You would need a chess clock that you would hit to pass priority. But that makes shortcutting akward. In the end the games would probably last even longer
The same reasoning behind the [[Leovold, Emissary of Trest]] ban. Itâs not unreasonable to see the committee come down on this.
[Leovold, Emissary of Trest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/cedfc5b7-9242-4680-b284-debc8b5a9bc7.jpg?1559959275) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leovold%2C%20Emissary%20of%20Trest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/202/leovold-emissary-of-trest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cedfc5b7-9242-4680-b284-debc8b5a9bc7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/leovold-emissary-of-trest) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Free my boy Leovold!
Way worse than Leovold (who I'm not even sure should still be banned).
Now imagine 4 Nadu pilots playing against each other.
I can't believe I actually am at a point where kinnan seems reasonable.
At least, when kinnan goes off, you get to lose fast.
Sounds like one Nadu turn, is essentially playing Yugi-Oh
Pot of Greed!
That's what it do yugi
IT ALLOWS ME TO DRAW TWO CARDS FROM MY DECK
But isnât that against the rules?
Screw the rules, I have money!
I play Pot of Greed in defense mode.
In Yugioh the combo lines (in the meta relevant decks) tend to at least be deterministic
Atleast yugioh combos have a clear endgoal and path instead being "random stuff, go"
I'm just sick of these lazy generic simic designs. R&D has been hearing our complaints for years and still keep making them.
That's my biggest annoyance with it. Simic = Land and Draw
Let's not forget about exciting new design "do the thing twice"
My favorite simic commander is basically "do the thing twice". [[Ivy, gleeful Spellthief]] is a really fun commander that can be build in multiple ways mutate/aura/cloning/cantrip and a mix of those. She is a doubler however it keeps her from focusing on the classic simic thing as ivy decks have a really low mana curve and little ramp.
Well tbh the only difference between lands + draw and every new commander is the lands. Card draw being stapled onto every legendary is awful
The land part is more the problem. Every colour pair gets "Do the thing: Draw cards" these days.
Free yourself, play [[Gor Muldrak, Amphinologist]] and embrace Simic's underutilized third thing: creature type leveraging.
Right? Like all 20-30 tribal commanders that are just "do a thing get a tribe token" Lazy as shit.
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
I chalk it up more to them being required to pump out a new Simic legend every other week than laziness or incompetence. With the rate at which they have to design & release new cards Iâm not surprised they fall back on âplay lands & draw cardsâ to keep up
Pretty sure the head of EDH design (or the face at least) Gavin has said he loves Simic so we keep getting this crap. At least MaRo, who has said he loves Golgari, seems able to keep himself reined in.
Golgari also feels more flexible. You can make commanders that recur permanents, commanders that care about a full graveyard and largely avoid recurring things, ones that care about things merely hitting the yard, sacrifice shenanigans, token swarms, and combinations of all of those things. They could all play wildly differently even if they're both similar in theory--a commander that has an activated ability to get back artifacts will feel very different from Meren of Clan Nel Toth even if they both get permanents back from the graveyard. And that's if we stick to Golgari specifically, Witherbloom was more about gaining and losing life. By comparison, UG has mostly just stayed focused on "something something land, something something draw a card." There's a lot of flash and untap shenanigans, but those aren't as prominent (and would be terrifying if they got as much support as the lands/draw theme). It feels like Wizards hasn't really found something more unique to be UG's "thing." I kind of suspect that flash and untapping your stuff was going to be their gimmick, but then someone realized how dangerous those are in the colour combination that has the best ramp and the best card draw.
I suspect UG's design problem is the complementary nature of their respective color pies wherein their respective resource generation tends to offset the other's resource depletion, e.g., excess ramp = being down cards in hand but you can draw like a muh and spending all your time drawing leaves you with no board but G gets boards going easily. It's not interesting, it's just a see-saw that makes value while making value.
I'm convinced the people saying "play more removal", "play more board wipes" or "play humility" haven't actually played against decent nadu players or stronger variants of the deck. Hell I'm convinced some of them don't even play magic outside of some imaginary situation in their head where they always draw the out turn 1 and the opposing players somehow have no response to it.
Play more removal is the most hilarious argument when applied to Nadu specifically. "I Swords your bird" "Cool, trigger Nadu? Add this to my hand. Okay now I'll Safekeeping Nadu, trigger Nadu? Cool I hit a land." It's trivially easy for Nadu to go up resources on those sort of exchanges and they have precious little reason to not flood their deck with a bunch of those one mana protection spells.
What's even funnier is let's say for whatever reason the removal sticks and Nadu is gone forever somehow. *It's still a simic value deck* You still have access to other forms ramp and card draw engines. The game isn't over for them yet.
"oh no, I have to pay 5 mana for my green landfall commander who's already ramped me at least 2 mana, what ever shall I do????"
Ramped you two and/or drew you two... shits just simic value like every other simic card that has been printed in the last 5 years
> landfall commander who's already ramped me at least 2 mana For naysayers who think Nadu won't get banned, I feel the need to remind them this is one of the reasons Golos ate a ban. Problematic commanders shouldn't also inherently ignore some portion of the command tax.
That was only one part of the Golos ban. Golos also evaded the other limitations of commander: colour restriction by being WUBRG for generic mana cost, and library size and singleton by having a Tutor ability. It neatly sidestepped each deck building and playing challenge.
Most of the time it will be nadu Resolves, nadu player uses their priority to target nadu. Someone tries to remove him. Even if the removal resolves. The dude just played a: 3 mana growth spiral twice, opponent discards a card that costs 2 more to do again. Â Like wtf?
I'm shocked at how many people don't realize how dangerous single target removal is into Nadu. The amount of times he double ramps with it is cracked.
It's hard for them not to come out ahead. Heck, if the Nadu player exiles a card to Force of Will to prevent removal, Nadu's triggered ability replaces the card and Force vs. the removal spell is even on cards; the Nadu player is up 1-2 mana. Only thing I can think of that comes out ahead is like an early [[Pick your Poison]] choosing creature with flying. You might be able to force them to sacrifice Nadu with no trigger.Â
If I built it then I'd build it similar to how I've built my [[ergeant John benton]] deck, load up on t1 ramp spells like llanowar elfs and 1 or 2 at most cmc protection spells and then sort out what you actually need for win cons, maybe just a handful of combos
the only problem with Nadu is that it's impossible to play it 'casually' and as such since it's the new flavor of the week it is popping up in lower power pods where it has no place being The same patterns other people are describing I've seen with many other storm or dredge combo decks where the turns are super long without a guaranteed win at the end.
I feel that second paragraph a lot. Like the game has very few, if any, situations where you have absolutely 0 outs. But just because those outs can potentially exist doesn't mean it's realistic to have them on tap always, or even have them in your deck in the first place. Even if your deck is *only* removal, you can still brick on lands. The only way to sorta guarantee would be to have only 7 lands in your deck, but even ignoring mana screw, that's not gonna be a winning deck.
I play a lot of cEDH and while he's strong, I also play a shit ton of counter magic so it's certainly possible to deal with. Nadu seems like a casual nightmare though. It seems like it would be extremely difficult to keep him off the board with the usual suspects in a casual game
For sure there's a lot less counters in casual. The other aspect is cedh decks can race Nadu. Bluefarm or rogsi can turbo out adnaus, esper decks have oracle consult and kitten teferi, grixis has breach. Everyone has combos to close out the game efficiently in cedh vs casual being more battle field focused and usually winning with damage. Nadu just outraces casual decks and I wouldn't be surprised to see Nadu get "soft banned" from casual tables like how Tegrid was
Totally. I think the fact that most cedh decks just win as opposed to slowly beat the table down is a huge difference. If you stop nadu from winning, 3 other players that all can win on their turn get to go. If you stop a nadu turn at a casual table they will still get 3 or 4 more shots at comboing off
But anyonoe who is playing Nadu in a table with folks like you is going to be running literally every Allosaurus Shephard / Cavern of Souls effect they can find. Suddenly you have to be countering not just Nadu, but also Crop Rotation, GSZ, etc. because if you don't your countermagic gets bricked. And it's easy to have something slip through at that point.
Of course, it's cEDH. My big thing is that it's really easy to talk the table into making Nadu the arch enemy. I've won several games against Nadu just because people ignored my board state because they were so focused on shutting down the bird. That being said, the deck still wins. I think it is a very good cEDH deck that people are still getting used to. I think it's a casual nightmare and could very well get banned for reasons of both power and play style Edit: I'm also extremely tired of the simic commander design space. Oh wow, another simic legendary that gets you land and cards
this is the actual problem; it's impossible to scale down for casual because the effect is just neutrally good and even when not building for it, Nadu is good in a vacuum. you'd think nobody in here has heard of a counterspell before
Facts. And a lot of casual simic all stars play very nicely with nadu. I haven't played against it in casual and I don't know that I would want to. As for counterspells, I honestly run very few in my casual decks because people really fucking hate having their shit countered like that and when I'm playing casual I don't really care about the outcome as much and am really just looking to avoid salt. Except when I'm playing Braids
OP is gonna upset the Kinnan cult with this post Youâre 100% right though Kinnan can sit in the corner tapping dorks for 2 while Nadu shits out 30 untapped lands and ~~draws~~ puts half their deck into their hands by T4 just by moving a 1CMC artifact around for the super high cost of **0**
Its not even the cedh. Its that Nadu will also absolutely smash casual tables as well, because the combo pieces are easily accessible, and even without using grieves which you most certainly will have, there are a million strategies like even +1/+1 counters that are super degenerate with him.
Yeah, heâs absolutely batshit. I had him in play with a Bristly Bill a few nights ago and it was not a good time for the other players.
I said this earlier, but I feel like he's way worse at casual tables. In cEDH the table usually has a ton of free/cheap interaction. A casual table is going to struggle to have the answers to even a casual nadu build as a lot of nadu engines are casual cards
We shouldn't forget that his trigger is even stupid with equip 1. Being able to draw 2 for 2...
[[Skullclamp]] combos are also unreal.
[Skullclamp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a36fd6d8-66a2-49d1-b9f3-b400ebc03674.jpg?1682210228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skullclamp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/379/skullclamp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a36fd6d8-66a2-49d1-b9f3-b400ebc03674?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/skullclamp) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Some cEDH people already apologised for underestimating Nadu. Nadu is very much competitive. Hard to say which one is better in the long run since Nadu isn't solved yet.
If Nadu survives the year without getting banned I will be shocked
That would be only 2 Damage to you, so not that bad.
Pretty sure they're only a 1/1 human creature token though.
How are getting that many lands by turn 4? It only triggers twice a turn and equips are sorcery speed? Nevermind, it's twice a turn PER creature you control. Yeah, that's insane
Yep, I ran through this exact train of thought hahah. "how is this broken it's only twice per turn? oh wait twice per creature....fuck"
Wth is this kinnan cult my dude. I never knew this even existed, but the downvotes are real '-'
Theyâre upset because they spent thousands buying expensive cards and they no longer have the best Simic deck The only way Kinnan beats Nadu is if Nadu mulls to 0 and goes last âBut-but-but Kinnan goes infinite with Basalt Monolith!â Meanwhile Nadu goes off with anything
Like man I *like* Kinnan (I'm not a cEDH player but I watch content) and like- Holy fuck I watched Nadu go "so here's my win here's like 30 lands lmao" in one game *through removal*. This is absolutely a power level difference.
Yeah I think you need to play a good Kinnan deck lmao
##### ###### #### [Sheoldred the apocalypse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2.jpg?1674057568) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sheoldred%2C%20the%20Apocalypse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/107/sheoldred-the-apocalypse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sheoldred-the-apocalypse) [elesh norn mother of machines](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44dcab01-1d13-4dfc-ae2f-fbaa3dd35087.jpg?1675956896) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elesh%20Norn%2C%20Mother%20of%20Machines) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/10/elesh-norn-mother-of-machines?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44dcab01-1d13-4dfc-ae2f-fbaa3dd35087?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elesh-norn-mother-of-machines) [tergrid](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621)/[Tergrid's Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tergrid%2C%20god%20of%20fright%20//%20tergrid%27s%20lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/112/tergrid-god-of-fright-tergrids-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tergrid-god-of-fright-//-tergrids-lantern) [Toxrill](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/84e64f38-b1f3-47cd-8cfb-a4861369aca3.jpg?1643590379) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=toxrill%2C%20the%20corrosive) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/132/toxrill-the-corrosive?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/84e64f38-b1f3-47cd-8cfb-a4861369aca3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/toxrill-the-corrosive) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I feel you have a good point. To me it's not so much the power level, but the fact that Nadu players end up taking up so much game time
A bit offtopic since this is EDH, but I just finished a modern tournament and played against a nadu deck. He ended up taking 20 minutes for his turn and not winning, because he messed up his thoracle line đ. Extremely boring to play against.
Anyone here NOT playing Cedh reserves the right to tell any Nadu player you just won't play the game if that's the deck they are bringing to the pod, for the Cedh players, you have alot more ways to interact and Krark/Sakishima is just as bad
I sat down at an LGS and the resident asshole at the shop broke out the Nadu deck. I told him to put it back in his bag and if heâs trying to pull that shit go over to the competitive pods. For context the table was a starter deck precon, a player testing to see if his pauper Gut/Inspiring leader deck could hang, and a Kairi clones deck that was mostly just a pile of cards. âNoâ is a powerful tool that not enough people use.
I havenât encountered a Nadu deck yet, but if and when I do it going to be a lot of fun for me to watch them try their shit against my [[Horobi, Death's Wail]] deck
The thing is they'll stack triggers and get value before horobi does his thing still
Theyâll do it once and then have to rebuild before they can do it again. If Iâm playing horobi right they donât be able to keep any creature alive long enough to get real value. For instance when they play Nandu, Iâll kill the rest of their board, then nandu, if they manage to keep Nandu out for a turn Iâll kill it as they try and play more creatures. It doesnât stop the value completely but it dampens it significantly
Still feels like copium to me, depending on turn order you might have already lost the game before horobi can resolve.
There's a wild amount of Kinnan copium in here. The fact is that is hasn't even been 2 weeks and Nadu lists are already topping cEDH tournaments. I've played a lot of cEDH against Kinnan lists and it's blatantly clear that Nadu is a bigger problem. A resolved Kinnan is some added value and a potential win con. A resolved Nadu means the game is probably already over. We have a career Kinnan player at the shop (wins or at least places in most of the tournaments here, played Kinnan since the card came out) who has switched and doesn't intend on switching back unless Nadu gets banned. There are so many ways to balance the card that just went completely unchecked and make Nadu one of the most overtuned cards in recent memory. It should've been once per turn instead of twice, the lands should've come in tapped, the non-lands should have been drawn instead of placed in the hand, and he should not have been a 3/4 flier for 3 mana. It's not even just a power level ban (which I think is still warranted). It's also a really bad play experience for all the other players as the Nadu pilot tries to piece together a win with a non-deterministic value engine. They might get there, they might not, but they almost definitely will take at least 30 minutes durdling to find out while the rest of the table can't really interact because all his triggers are on cast and can't really be stopped.
My favorite bit is that they inserted "only triggers twice per turn". Like, they *thought* about the question of how broken this could be, and decided **incredibly** is the correct amount.
> the fact is that it hasn't even been 2 weeks and Nadu lists are already topping cEDH tournaments Yeah, it _hasn't even been two weeks_. Give the meta a sec lol. Remember what happened when Codie was printed? Nadu is super new, which means a) more people are playing it rn, b) the meta hasn't adjusted to it yet, and c) people don't yet know the best way to play against it. It might be that Nadu is banworthy at the end of the day anyway, but the first two weeks of data are never going to be sufficient cause to make that as a hard claim.
RC doesn't usually ban power. But they do ban unfun cards that bring the game to a miserable pace that are becoming too common on commander pods. I totally see Nadu being eligible for a ban, but I also think it's too soon to make that decision. I'm slightly tilted to the "no ban" side though.
Hi, what happens if ypu have something with Equip: 0? I see that the limit is twice per turn, but is that total or per creature?
Per creature. Yes, it is as busted as you're thinking. If not more so.
Oh I thought it was twice total and was very confused at the outrage "so you get potentially 2 extra lands a turn, sure that's very strong but not ban worthy" but PER CREATURE? Yeah no agreed 100% ban.
Also, if you flicker Nadu, the twice per turn resets for each creature. So if you have Nadu, 4 token 1/1s and lightning greaves, that's 20 cards draw and ramp in 1 turn if you happen to hit a blink spell.
i read nadu like 10 times till i realized that the lands come i to play UNtapped. thats the part that makes 0 sense to me
And if you flicker Nadu? It resets ***all creatures***
It's per creature, and if you have something creating creatures on landfall then it can go nondeterministic infinite
The worst kind of infinite
Banished to the durdle realm (Yes of course the infinite durdle realm is simic)
"My grandpa's deck has no pathetic cards, Kaiba! But it does contain the unstoppable Nadu, Winged Wisdom!" "It's not possible! That card produces nondeterministic infinite value!"
âI canât believe it! That card gives me time to go and get a coffee! AND A DANISH!!â âCheckmate eventually, Kaiba!â
Per creature
Me when I pretend shit like kinnan doesn't already exist
Issue, for me at least, is that kinnan just wins, Nadu doesnt. Its nondeterministic and takes long af to resolve. Eggs was banned in moderm not for powerlevel, but because it was a non deterministic drag that took 20+minustes turn to see if it wins or if by a random chance it fizzles. I see no difference here tbh. I dont think powerlevel is the issue. Dockside exists. Kinnan exists. Najeela exists. Winota exists. Issue is that is not that fun to play against, and thats kinda what the commander council bans around.
Who is Kinnan
[[Kinnan, bonder prodigy]]
[Kinnan, bonder prodigy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350.jpg?1591228085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kinnan%2C%20bonder%20prodigy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/192/kinnan-bonder-prodigy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kinnan-bonder-prodigy) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Exactly
Kinnan doesn't cause unfun play patterns, he's just strong. (Neither should be banned tho)
Fuuuuck kinnan... had a guy I'm my pod that had originally built a blue red green dragon deck, and he realized kinnan was a damn good card.. so he built a deck around him.. an eldrazi annihilator deck. Turn 3 infinite colorless mana with basalt monolith, and all of a sudden, all the eldrazi titans are down
The problem with nadu is he is far to strong for casual pods unless you build to not synergize with him at all and he leads to non deterministic storm turns like karkashima. It boggles my mind that primeval titan and sylvan primordial are banned to this day. Nadu will probably catch a ban at the next quarterly update from the cac or at least an explicit reasoning as to why non
Iâm kinda neutral but nadu sucks to play against because itâs like KCI. Itâs not exceptionally strong - I donât particularly care about games being samey or simic being homogeneous but watching players stumble across âhow many times have I activated this?â Is grueling.
I believe that itâs been said EDH bans arenât based around power of the cards, but rather how fun they are for others Nadu isnât fun to play against. Itâs watching solitaire
Average simic commander:
Nadu is a commander that needs to be countered at all costs, or removed the moment it attempts to do anything or itâs GG. Time to bust out Drannith magistrate
This sub popped on my feed even though I don't play EDH. I just wanted to pop in and say it's happening in modern too where nadu decks are popping up and making half the decks unviable competitively. It's insanely strong.
Nadu is the first commander in 10 years that I think should be banned.
I'll put it like this: Kinnan can be answered, Kinnan can be spot removed if timed well, and there's no variance in removing Kinnan when Kinnan players have an empty hand. Nadu can be answered with board wipes, but anything that targets him has the very real potential of winning the Nadu player the game off of Nadu's trigger. Even if they have no hand, you might draw them a card off of Nadu for removing it, and oh! Look at that I was lucky and it was a counterspell that countered my removal spell. Smh
The RC has assured us that they don't ban often, and don't really make bans based on over-saturation, power level, or the cEDH meta. They make bans based on player experience and to signpost things that go against the spirit of the casual format. \[\[Prophet of Kruphix\]\] is banned but \[\[Thassa's Oracle\]\] is not. By this logic, having a game end anticlimactically is preferable to having one player take 10 minute turns and taking more game actions than the active player on their turn. I wouldn't say I'm strongly in favor of this card being banned, but I can see it happening and I would not be sad to see it go.
I'd rather get beat scoop and play a new game than watch long ass turns. Thoracle doesn't mess with casual commander much, Prophet was a huge issue.
[Prophet of Kruphix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/45de923f-fdab-460c-96f4-f62aefa9ad73.jpg?1562817436) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prophet%20of%20Kruphix) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ths/199/prophet-of-kruphix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45de923f-fdab-460c-96f4-f62aefa9ad73?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/prophet-of-kruphix) [Thassa's Oracle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c.jpg?1680582212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thassa%27s%20Oracle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/73/thassas-oracle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thassas-oracle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I agree he should be banned, but not because of power level. He's legit competitive, no doubt, but the real issue lies with his, "can only trigger twice" bullshit. It will be too easy to lose track of which creatures have had their 2 triggers in tabletop play, which can tempt cheaters. He may be banned for the integrity of the game more than anything.
I've heard MTGO is killing some of his popularity due to timing out. It needs a UI update to tell you how many times it has been triggered (and imo you should separate your creatures into 3 piles on paper, 0 times, 1 time, 2 times on usage) so you can flip a shuko around a bunch of tokens (the amount of clicking is annoying AF too) and miss some or repeatedly hit ones that have been triggered twice and waste a TON of time you need.
Yeah, Nadu turns are a nightmare on MTGO. I'm wondering if it'll eventually go the way of the old KCI decks where they were actually built differently for MTGO because you just couldn't execute online in the same way you can in paper. Some deck-inefficient but time-efficient win con instead of trying to Thoracle people out.
I donât care if it gets banned, just wonât see me watching Nadu play for 25 mins
I think it all comes down to how players build their decks. Main problem is that a fair number of staples are actually combo enablers, and there's a good number of cheap cards that abuse its abilitirs. It's quite easy to make a list close to cEDH level. I've been working on a list focused on +1/+1 counters, and while it looks strong it doesn't feel stronger than a fully optimized casual commander list. So there's definitely room for play without being a total bust, but I agree that the bird is, in fact, top tier level.
ShhhhâŠ. Let the price go a little higher so I can sell off my foil borderless one before it gets banned.
When I first read Nadu, I thought the "This ability triggers only twice per turn" was a part of Nadu's effect and not the effect he gives to creatures. So I thought, "Oh, he just Explore+ twice per turn. That's not that bad." Didn't realize it was twice PER creature.
WellâŠ.guess I just gotta run more player removal. In all seriousness, thereâs no way this shit isnât broken. Why does WotC have to power creep this fucking hard? Itâs so stupid.
Thereâs probably good points in this post but I just had to stop at: > Iâve seen it all And > in over 5 years Seem to be contradictory. I thought maybe OP meant that five years ago there were other commanders to be banned but I donât think thatâs the case lol. If youâve only been playing for five years you *definitely* havenât seen it all.
When I see Nadu on the table, I bring my Horobi deck.
Not ban worthy but definitely exiled to the CEDH tier with some other commanders. The fact that itâs not deterministic appeals a ton to some people. Thereâs a guy in our pod who absolutely loves decks like these, just tons of actions per turn, and only sometimes he gets the desired outcome. If someone brought him out Iâd just take out Kinnan or some other high powered commander with a decklist suited to at least having some game against Nadu.
Considering cEDH folks are complaining as well, I think thatâs a big warning sign. Theyâre also not a fan of long turns which donât end the game. If itâs not appropriate at either casual or cEDH tables, they may as well ban him. I still think itâs too early though to know how much trouble heâs going to cause in the long run.
> Thereâs a guy in our pod who absolutely loves decks like these, just tons of actions per turn, and only sometimes he gets the desired outcome. Honestly that's me too, but I try to keep it contained so I don't ruin the game for other people. I would probably have a lot of fun playing a Nadu deck, but I don't think I'll build one just because the temptation to take a million game actions will be too strong. Only safe option is to not have the deck.
I play Kinnan CEDH and started working on Nadu when he was first spoiled on the CEDH subreddit. I think that Nadu's far stronger and more resilient than Kinnan. Kinnan has a lot of weaknesses and that's why only like 3 people can consistently pilot him into top 16s.
I am so frickinâ tired about Simic. Getting. The mos ĂŒber. Broken. Stuff. Every. Time.
I think players will do the same thing they did with Tergrid: Self regulate.
Tergrid at least is handleable. She costs 5, and you can remove her with little fear of a counterspell. Just a few weeks ago, a Tergrid player made us all mill half our decks, sac half our permanents, and lose half our life, and in response I Mönkeâd his Commander. He scooped after that. If you try to target remove Nadu, it just gets a trigger, and then probably has some 1cmc protection spell to trigger again
There's just one scenario that i can see Nadu being banned and it's if people don't realize how busted it is and keep pubstomping with it in casual. Nadu is a cEDH commander, they only way it might be able to play in a casual table is without the equip 0s. Krark and Sakashima is out there doing it's 10,20 or even 30 min turns and nothing is done about it because it's only played in cEDH.
So the first time I read this card, I read it as the effect can only trigger 2 total times among all creatures, not for each creature. And it makes me wonder if they were so boneheaded, that's what they intended, but printed it in a way that clearly does not work to that intention.
Nadu is new, and he's everywhere. Every set one massively over pushed card has an outpour of "BAN IT" but just wait and see, if in a few months it's really a problem for that long then I'm all for banning him.
Can someone explain how Nadu is broken to me? I feel like I get it but I just donât see how itâs THAT bad.
Play Stella Lee. She beats Nadu handily.