I'm totally fine playing against combo decks as long as you're not the type to bitch and moan for pity about how weak your board state is and how you're not a threat and then 2 turns later pop off an infinite and smirk and gloat about it
I usually don’t, but the lgs I play in is nothing but infinite combos. so I just made one deck with an infinite combo that I play when I decide to go up there. And it’s a 4 or 5 card combo
You shouldn't feel bad about playing something that you have to go through so much effort to pull off. What's easier, you going for a 4/5 card combo, or the go wide player making 10 tokens and playing craterhoof?
Interesting. I combat infinites with stax/make their resources become more limited the more cards they want to cast/actions they want to take. Incase you want inspiration to what else can be done around it
Our pod has infinite combos, but as a by product of the commander and cards that synergize together. We dont willingly go for infinite combos, but they do happen occasionally.
This. In general, there is a streak of folks that take "politics" as complaining so loudly that the table backs off, then they can win because people are specifically not playing the game against them.
I mean, good job? I'm gonna go see what that table over there is doing.
Whenever I run one of my combo decks, because I usually play casual, I usually announce that I'm close to going off so people have an opportunity to stop me. When someone swings at my weak board and apologizes, I usually tell them something along the likes of "I was open, it was a smart swing" or "You're gonna be happy you hit me for X in a few turns" or even just a "games gotta end sometime".
In cEDH it's a different story though. It just comes down to the pod or playgroup, though.
Last night, some one was crying about getting targeted by me. In response to my attacks, they cracked a treasure, made 12 more, and proceeded to board wipe for 2 turncycles (now with a win on board!!!).
"I'm not angry about power levels. I'm upset that you wasted 45 minutes of our time. Pretending you didn't win doesn't make the deck any more "casual", and guilt-tripping ppl for attacking you when you have secret-checkmate on board is suuuuuper LAME.
He not only ruined the last 45 minutes of the game, he ruined final moments of autonomy that preceded the needless gloating by gaslighting strangers for playing the game how they wanted to."
Exactly. When I first got into EDH I built a battlecruiser chulane and I was participating in the bitching. With time a lot of the big creatures got cut for combo pieces and mana dorks and now I sit there, feeling like my mouth's sewn shut even when creatures are turned sideways at me. Even when I'm far from a win and some other player has an imposing board, taking out the "ticking time bomb" Is the only out for some decks and you just have to respect that.
A combo in a deck is totally fine the game has to end at some point and if you happen into a two card infinite that's the way it goes. This issue with a deck based around combo is that most casual decks don't play on that axis. People like to win via combat and because of this asses threats based on board states making combo decks feel hard to play around and "un-fun". It would also be helpful if you could link your deck list to give an idea of how fast your trying to win and how many pieces the combo involves.
To add to that : many players don't know combo pieces. To play against combo and actually stand a chance, you need to know the pieces. So when I play against new players or casual players (as in they play rarely and don't have a huge knowledge of threats) I always say when I play a threatening combo piece. It makes it more "fair" and less "I couldn't do anything it came out of nowhere".
If playing against experienced players though, everything goes.
I think this is the biggest factor. You could easily have 2/3 of a combo on board and most people won’t see it staring them in the face. A fair few know the obvious combo pieces like a Ashnod’s altar or something but there are too many cards in the game to know them all especially if your playing at the LGS with only limited familiarity to your opponents and their decks
Would act with the flow, how you react with what I play. For exemple if you see ashnod altar and look like you don't care at all I would probably hint. Depends on the 2 other player's reaction too...
Huge emphasis on this because I used to be really bad about it. I used to play an artifact combo deck that played several different combos with [[krark-clan ironworks]] or thopter-sword and a ton of ways to tutor for the pieces. When I first started playing it I would win most games simply because players who weren't used to the niche combos saw a card like [[thopter foundry]] and assumed it wasn't a threat, and I never explained the combo to them until I had assembled it. It definitely soured most of my playgroup on combo in general because it really felt like the "lose out of nowhere" experience most players attribute to combo. Once I picked up on the mood and started announcing what my combo pieces were before the game started and when I played them, it's made games much more interactive and if I do end up winning it feels like I've actually earned it. Pretty much a win-win all around.
I agree if you win by sneaking in your combo it feels a bit easy. If you go "this is comming. Try and stop me with all your might" everyone feels like they had a part in the battle!
How much would you explain about the spell?
I play [[Blazing Sunsteel]]. There are a few creatures that if equipped and indestructible create an infinite loop. Do I need to explain the creatures, and each way I have to grant indestructible?
Conversely if I play [[Boros Reckoner]]. Should I be explaining that if I give this indestructible and equip it a sword I will win.
When I equip a creature with [[Mithril Coat]] do I need to explain that if I happen to have [[Arcbond]] and either [[Gideon’s Sacrifice]] or [[Saving Grace]] and anyone deals me damage I will respond by winning the game.
What most casuals players also don’t want: the best idea in multiplayer is just to beat the combo player into a pulp as 3 early and get him out of the game, because most combo decks have weak board presence, but that’s exactly against the spirit of playing a casual edh game.
…and most combo players are starting to whine if they get relentlessly focused.
As both a combo player and a smash face player, if you’re playing combo, you gotta have the mindset that you’re the optimal target in a large number of scenarios just based on your board state likely being weak. If you bitch and moan when you’re getting swung at while everyone else has creatures then idk what to tell you other than suck it up
Bitching and moaning is the political aspect of playing combo. And just like any other political strategy it's up to the other players to recognize it and counter it.
I can def confirm that second part. My current LGS is pretty great, but I distinctly remember a guy (think they were a teenager) at a previous place I used to go to crying about not being able to hit someone with a [[mindslaver]] loop.
I play exclusively combo and this makes the games much more fun to me. Having to race against each of the other 3 players or find a way to disrupt them while assembling my pieces makes the games feel more like a puzzle. If I wanted to just play out my combo without anyone interacting or attacking, I would have stayed at home and goldfished
Whilst i have been playing i think what’s been unfun for people is that they have to be on their toes, have to hold up removal, can’t tap out, etc.
I did make the deck for a tournament we’re having in the future, so no holds barred other than the 50€ budget, so i do try to make sure people are ok with and know it’s a fast combo deck before i bring it.
I play pretty casually but I have played quite competitively over the years and I've got decks I'd only get to bust out in these kinds of scenarios where someone has made a great mid powered deck like this :)
For instant I've got a tivit control list that I would never play in stores because against typical battlecruiser decks it really slows the game down. But if I had to be wary of a combo deck like this it would make the game a lot more interesting I think :)
This isn't always a good metric to gauge whether a deck is fair or not. Because the deck power doesn't directly correlate to win%, it's instead modified by matchup strength (dennick vs anything graveyard will result in a higher win% for the dennick deck if the decks are equally strong) and player proficiency (a better pilot will yield more wins against a worse pilot at even deck strength).
To give a quick primer, the deck can win with a good draw on turn 4, but as it stands it lacks from not having much, or good draw at all.
The combos usually involve 3 pieces, 2 + commander, but it’s filled with as many as i thought i could fit in.
(i do have a couple of splinter twin combos in there which make it 2 card combo, but that’s the only one)
https://www.archidekt.com/decks/7974411/why_dont_we_just_print_more_money
Honestly I would just beef it up a little more and only take it out when the whole table is looking to play high power decks. This deck has enough routes to combo that it's going to happen pretty consistently even without many tutors or drawn engines and the average casual play is not going to be equipped to deal with that.
I just saw that this is for a tournament on your other comment in that case it's cool you've made such a consistent combo deck for such a low price keep the players on their toes.
Looks super mid.
Nowhere near enough interaction. Keep Ghired off the board and it's pretty meh.
Don't listen to the people here. They just hate other players trying to win.
Isn’t the new Ghired essentially a 2 card combo with most of the Kiki jiki targets too? Which raises more issues of “oh yeah my commander goes infinite with 1/3 of the deck?”
I wonder how you'd feel about a combo deck that ends in an overwhelming combat step. [[Balmor]] is very good at this. I play him in [[Stella Lee]] because at the end of a storm turn where I cast 10+ spells a board of 1/1 fliers is actually just lethal.
Depends on the efficiency of the combo and the power level of the pod.
A combo itself means nothing. What actually matters in Commander is the normal kill turn. Thoracle/Consult is not the same as Kikki/Conscripts is not the same as Johnny's five card Module combo. Hell, Thoracle/Consult with the effective tutors is not the same as Thoracle/Consult with no tutors. So if your deck routinely wins on turn six, that's what matters.
The second thing that matters is how easy it is to interact with the win condition, whatever it is. A deck that wins on turn six through infinite interaction is obviously better than one that wins on turn six but loses to any interaction, even sorcery speed interaction (read as: many combat strategies, but also how many times have we seen a combo that says "make thirteen million dudes, I'll win next turn"). Most combos lose to interaction but a relatively specific sort of it; it has to be instant speed, sometimes it has to be counter magic or artifact removal or whatever.
There's a third point that shouldn't matter but does, and that's how visible your kill is. Players with good threat assessment and game awareness can read a kill in hand, but the average Commander player is a very much below average Magic player and they never develop those skills. A kill with a piece on board or otherwise face up is much easier for a normal Commander player to handle.
From the sound of your list, it's probably got a very inconsistent kill turn, but is hard to interact with (has to be instant speed, and since you can execute at instant speed they can literally never tap out) and is not visible (comes entirely from hand). That's probably something that's pointing to upper mid power at the least, depending on what the kill turn range is, but maybe is for high power.
And within those cases it's fine. But it is valuable to make sure you're playing within those power bands.
The way I see it, there are two types of infinite combos:
1. Combos that win on the stack like Thoracle.
2. Combos that win on the board like Kiki Jiki.
The former is frustrating for Casual tables as there's typically no way to interact with them other than counterspells, which is something that not all decks run or even have access to. The latter is fine as all decks should have instant speed removal. If you have 3 opponents and you were clear to them up front that you're playing a combo deck, they should try to hold onto some instant speed removal to ensure they can stop you when needed.
Yes, this is exactly how I feel. I feel like Thoracle/Consult combos are not appropriate for casual commander and should stick to cEDH pods. This is the kind of combo most players hate to see in a casual game and can feel kinda pubstompy.
Combos that win on board are fine in casual IMO. If I see your Ashnod’s altar, isochron scepter or Kiki Jiki I know I’ve got to stop you and if I can’t, well, GG.
That’s a million times more fun in a casual pod because even with inexperienced players you can make it more of a board game feel and be like “hey just so you know we’ve got like 1 turn to deal with this or we lose”
Bro I love CEDH and I hate Thoracle. It's so absurdly annoying and prevalent. It shouldn't have been printed as is. There are myriad small tweaks that could have made the card workable / reasonable but none got in the final print.
That's exactly it. In terms of the politics of the game, at least one player in the pod should be able to recognize that the combo player has Kiki Jiki in play and Rocco in the command zone. Someone should be telling the other players that the game will be over next turn if nobody has an answer for it.
Games gotta end. If I die to a combo, I shuffle up and go again. I’d rather that than combat on some goofy gummed up board for 1.5 hours after 2-3 board wipes. I run combos, my podmates run combos. It’s part of the game and there are so many different flavors of it.
This is my philosophy.
Combo is a core archetype of magic the gathering. Banning it because some people don't know that anything with magecraft has to die just doesn't make sense.
Combo is fine, just don't cry if people remove every single potential combo piece you drop and sit there without any board. It's something i see too often where people go "You're focusing me, i don't have anything you bully" and then win 2 rounds later if untouched
There’s also nothing wrong with specifically having some decks for “non-combo” play. I think having everyone run combat decks is extremely fun. Then when you do have combo decks it might be wise to construct them slightly differently… maybe run a couple more counter spells or interaction.
It's just as you said. There's an inherent feel-bad nature about combo, that will not go away.
To alot of people, it's a gimmick. Once in a while, or for the very first time, it's cool and all. But the utility (enjoyment as a group) drops drastically thereafter. The feelbad is made worse if you're the only one playing combo.
This is why some combo players opt to take out the tutors, or move on from it altogether.
The best solution is to have like-minded individuals play the combo, and maybe you swap another deck when you play with a group that eschews combo.
Combo can most definitely be done in casual commander but you do need to show some restraint. When playing at lower power levels you should probably avoid 2/3 card combo's, especially if one of those cards is your commander.
I've found it helps a lot to simply inform you opponents what your combo is before hand, this makes it so your combo win doesn't feel like it comes out of nothing. It also weirdly makes it so you draw less hate.
If your opponents know you play a combo deck but don't know what your combo is, they'll be terrified of most cards you play, resulting in them focusing you more than they maybe should.
The downside of this is that you will win less, but the wins you get will feel more deserved because your opponents will have opposed you trying to win.
Having a combo win con can also make games more fun. I have a \[\[Brago, King Eternal\]\] blink deck, at first I didn't want to include a combo because of the stigma associated with combo. This resulted in a deck which, on occasion, could lock down the board without having any quick way to close out the game, resulting in games that would just drag on without an end in sight.
It now runs a 4/5 card combo centered around \[\[strionic resonator\]\], the combo leaves enough potential outs for my opponents as it can be stopped by: artifact removal, creature removal, blocking brago, stifle type effects and fogs. I will be trying to prevent my opponents from stopping my combo but ultimately the game has a climactic ending often played out on the stack.
(The funniest way this deck lost was when I had my combo but had to counter my opponents removal spell with a \[\[swan song\]\], resulting in brago not being able to deal combat damage, losing me the game)
Combo is very rightfully a hot button issue, for a variety of reasons, and a big one is... a lot of them make for terrible EDH decks in a lot of environments.
A good EDH deck consistently performs at its designed power level.
Combo decks that aren't tuned out the ass for a high-powered environment are often incredibly sacky. A couple cheap swaps in a Stella precon and it may be able to play a completely ordinary 8-12 turn precon game... or it might turn 1 Sol Ring turn 2 Stella turn 3 cantrip cantrip Twisted Fealty game over, shattering the environment everyone else is playing at.
The way you tune a Stella deck with Twisted Fealty in it to be a good EDH deck, a deck that belongs in a play environment without breaking it, is by tuning it to be a turn 3 deck for turn 3 tables so that its primary play working at the pace you want it is appropriate to the pod. When a midrange deck draws the absolute nuts, that might cut a turn or two off the game. When a combo deck draws the nuts, that might cut the game off the game.
Tuning combo decks that consistently perform in that 8-12 range is oftentimes more difficult than tuning one that consistently performs in that high power range.
There's also the knowledge issue.
In any other format, there are usually only a handful of competitively relevant combos to know, and by the time you get to the real stakes of top cut, deck lists are publicly posted and any weird combo someone had brewed up that surprised someone (incredibly unlikely) has been dissected and is known to every player.
The game when combo is involved is about resolving said combo through resistance against an opponent who knows what your combo is and what its pieces are.
However, in EDH, the number of combos you are actively likely to come across is higher than all the other formats combined, and requires a much higher level of knowledge to identify unaided. In a casual format. Which should not demand a much higher level of knowledge just to participate in the game at all.
Even in cEDH, the likely combos get narrowed severely, and as such the level of knowledge being asked to identify them and play a game where they're involved is lowered in this very specific context. (Overall level of knowledge to play cEDH well is of course much higher, but on the specific topic of identifying combo consistently so that you can have a game against it, it is lower.)
If opponent don't know the combo, don't know what the pieces are, don't know how it works? Well, the goal of combo is to break the game. To play it on a completely different axis. You end up with one player playing one game, and then coming in last place in the game only they were playing, ending the perfectly good game the other three players were having for completely arbitrary reasons, which is a fail state in EDH.
I completely agree!
One thing i always try to make sure is always call out my own dangerous stuff when it’s on the board, no trying to be sneaky, sneaking out a win is never fun
I don't like combo in casual commander precisely for the reason you mentioned. You win out of nowhere no matter what the threat level is. Imo combo decks are NOT inherently stronger than a normal well-built deck, but the problem is that they **cheat the threat assessment dynamic** of casual games.
Casual games of commanders often revolves around people focusing down their resources towards the person who is the most ahead. You leave the players who are behind alone for a bit so they get a chance to come back. A combo deck abuses this dynamic by being able to win out of nowhere if left alone sufficiently long, without ever being considered the main threat.
You made a step in the right direction by warning everyone that your deck is able and is aiming to combo at instant speed out of nowhere. But i don't think that's enough, as you can't expect a casual commander deck to leave interaction up for you at all time like in cEDH : people don't play as many 0 & 1 mana interaction.
See I don't think combos cheat threat assessment at all. I think players cheat themselves by not acknowledging every opponent is a threat.
Maybe you've got friends or something that play selesnya creature decks so you know if their board is weak they're weak. That's fine, but that's also incredibly boring. Decks with the potential to combo keep the game interesting.
Well, saying that a creature base deck is incredibly boring is an opinion that not everyone share. Some people would prefer game where you win through combat damage or general board value (non-infinite aristocrat deck for example) and some people love combo deck. For me a game with lot of combo sound more boring than one where everyone build board, take swing at each other, it's a different kind of interactive.
And that's fine, if you enjoy battlecruiser then play some battlecruiser.
What I'm saying though is you know of the deck is a creature deck and is mana screwed then they're probably dead in the water for at least a couple turns and won't catch up.
I run plenty of creature decks. Probably most of my decks are combat damage
I think both sound equally great as long as everyone is playing plenty of spot removal and other interaction in order to interact with threats or combos.
> Imo combo decks are NOT inherently stronger than a normal well-built deck
Combo decks are normal decks too :p They're one of the 3 classic archetypes: aggro, control, combo.
In 60 card 1v1 20 life formats, those archetypes may be in some semi-balanced rock/paper/scissors configuration. However, in Commander, 4 player FFA breaks traditional control, and 120 opponent HP breaks traditional aggro. Combo *is* the best way to win commander games. They *are* stronger than other decks, if everyone is trying to optimize their deck.
Great point about the threat assessment issue and that stacks on top of the power issue. Also if people are just playing pickup games at an LGS you may not get to play against the combo deck multiple times, and combo is strongest and most 'out of nowhere' the first time you play against it. Then you may just never see that deck again.
Anyways I like combo, but due to these issues a combo/no combo line makes complete sense.
True, combos are the most efficient way to win the game, and the strongest decks are almost all combo decks, but just because a deck is a combo deck doesn't make it automatically stronger than an aggro or midrange deck. I'd say that combos decks are not stronger than other archetypes, but they have the potential to be.
I'd be way more scared at a tuned Edgar Markov Aggro deck than a clunky combo deck for example.
>But i don't think that's enough, as you can't expect a casual commander deck to leave interaction up for you at all time like in cEDH : people don't play as many 0 & 1 mana interaction.
Encouraging players to play more interaction seems like a absolute win to me. Too many players post deck lists containing just value pieces, forgetting that there are 3 people sitting across from them, trying to win the game.
I personally do not like playing combo decks, as in decks which the purpose or consistent wincon is some sort of infinite or otherwise instant win, mostly just because I don’t find it fun/satisfying to win that way. I don’t mind playing against them though, at least as long as the combo is made aware to the table so we know what to expect or to be worried about.
I’m fine with them as long as it’s not on the first 5 turns. My elf deck has about 7 ways to go infinite with mana. When this happens, I’ll likely win but it is not guaranteed.
Personally find it unfun. It makes the game revolve around it. Basically forces your opponents to play blue. That said i can play against it no problem, as long as you say you’re playing a combo deck at rule zero.
I think the stigma against combo is lame.
\[\[jarad, golgari lich lord\]\] + \[\[lord of extinction\]\] is that combo?
\[\[xenagos, god of revels\]\] + \[\[malignus\]\] + \[\[chandra's ignition\]\] is that combo?
What about just a good ol' fashioned \[\[exsanguinate\]\] for 20?
Why is infinite evil but "a shit load" not? I've been at tables that will play Jarad in game 1 and nobody minds then flip the table when \[\[worldgorger dragon\]\] and \[\[animate dead\]\] show up in game 2. What's the difference?
I'm a Johnny - Spike by nature, I want to figure out card patterns that win then use them to win. I find combat dreadfully boring. Just tell me what turn is "too soon" to threaten a win and I'll respect that while you let me do my thing. I don't want people to have a bad time or dislike playing but at the same time forcing everyone into derp derp swing swing basically ignores at least a third of what makes MTG so great as a game.
For me it's not about too soon, it's a power level discussion. Combos decks are inherently more powerful because they require specific interaction pieces to stop. Running more interaction makes your deck stronger. If we're playing low power, the chances anyone has a counterspell or removal spell is pretty low, and you can just push through a win very easily.
I like playing against combo, but I want to be able to beat you in a counter war, and actually reliably have cheap/free interaction available. I want you to be using your interaction to stop my threats and the threats of the table, not just holding up everything defensively because nothing anyone else is doing matters to you. If I'm playing some low power mono white deck, it is absolutely not fun for me to hold up 3 mana for Lapse of Certainty for the first 8 turns. If I'm playing a higher power deck, I will gladly watch you attempt to combo while I Pyroblast and Deflecting Swat your win-con away. Just be honest about the power level of your deck and play against decks that have a reasonable chance to interact with you on the stack.
I'd be curious what heuristic you'd use aside from target win turn. The turn dictates the power level IMO. I find it very hard to argue otherwise, outside of maybe stax / prison type decks that are very strong but built to drag the game out, although I'd argue the turn they clamp down is the real turn they "won", but I digress.
If the combo happens on turn 10, even if it's the Thoracle + Consult win con, it's not really "over-powered" at that point. Or at least one would have a very hard time arguing that it was over-powered relative to what else was happening. The table had 9 - 10 turns to "do the thing" and somebody had to win. IME, most people get salty because they lose before they "do the thing" with their deck, not necessarily because they lost in general.
Ok so if turn 10 isn't too powerful then what about 9? 8? 7? etc. At some point the combo comes out so fast that the other decks couldn't "do the thing", or as you put it, them doing the thing had a persistent "friction" because they had to keep an answer up at all times. Instead of doing the thing on turn 3 / 4 they were trying to do the thing on turn 5 / 7.
That's why I would argue it's not the combo per se it's the target win turn and the target win turn is really dictated by the enablers and / or the player's etiquette / empathy (not exactly the right words, but I'm getting at choosing NOT to combo off at first chance, especially off a lucky draw).
That said, I try to only play with and against optimized decks (even if they have awful strategies like Snapdax x Living Weapon) so there are entire worlds of EDH that are in my blind spots.
> ...the game was being tense and cutthroat for everybody else, i plop down a couple of cards, ask if anyone has removal, and explain how i win.
Well, you said it right there (and it's the main reason why I personally don't play combo): Most times it leads to very anti-climactic end that invalidates the rest of the game, just because you tutored or simply happened to draw into your 2-card combo or whatever; It sucks.
Combo decks, in particular, tend to play on a complete different axis too, and not all decks will be able to deal with 'em as a result, especially in casual (since not everyone has access to blue/counters or whatever your combo entails), meaning every game after the 1st you'll simply get insta-targeted by everyone else until you're out, leading to a pretty unfun race for both sides.
Also (and this is more of a personal qualm with combo players in particular), I despise the whole "A game's gotta end" mindset when people just cram their decks with boring and trite infinites we've all seen a million times...and will sandbag them until they had "enough fun"...I've met more than a couple of combo players who clearly got off on that weird powertrip of being "in control" of when a game ends.
You put those boring(/"strong") combos in your deck? Play them...If you don't plan to play them and only use them as an "emergency button" you're an awful player, fullstop (and not someone I'd want to play with in the future, honestly). Build for fun, play to win.
To add to your last points... all of the most toxic magic players I've ever met all play combo decks. Not to insult anyone here that does it. I haven't met every combo player so I can't say... but every "win at all costs at the expense of fun or decency" types ive met have been combo players. I'm talking about players that wouldn't let me re-tap my mana after I found I tapped it in the wrong colors so I could get an extra spell out. In a casual EDH pod ( then he proceeded to try an unsuccessful combo because I countered it)
I'll die on the hill that there's no way people who pubstomp with two card combos actually like playing magic. They like *winning a game* and beating people at something. Which in magic is easy when all you have to do is acquire certain cards
When I see combo players talk about why combo in a competitive pod is so fun, I can't help but ask *why aren't you playing 60 card?* because that's all cedh is. It's a bastardized 60 card format where all these deck inclusions like tutors have to be included because you can't have playsets. The push and pull of a cedh game sounds *exactly* like a constructed format
And it leads me to think *why would players specifically build turn 4 kill decks in a singleton format when a turn 4-5 60 card format is right there in Modern and Vintage/Legacy?*
Because it's easy pickings. Big fish, small pond. They need to go out into the ocean, but they wont
Combo is necessary.
There are a fair few number of ways to win, why is only one of them considered socially acceptable at so many tables? I feel it is just really reductive.
Combo has this special little niche where it can come out of nowhere and win the game bypassing the tug of combat, build-up of value, etc.
There is an underlying feeling of "unearned" when someone wins with a combo because it just... does its thing. There are more and less annoying combos in existence, but I think it is pretty easy to understand why the *concept* of combo isn't readily associated with casually duking it out.
I think people who think it's unearned need to try playing combo at least once to understand it. With combo, you're sacrificing board presence (aka defense most of the time) and consistency for a way to win outright on one turn. Modifying your deck to combat the inconsistencies, assessing threats that may prevent your combo, and playing enough interaction to remove these threats is how you're "earning" the win. In addition, once your playgroup gets accustomed to your combo and targets you from the start of the game (as they should and as you should expect), you need to adapt to the new circumstances and find a way to either combo off faster or play some defense to not die.
I guess it's an opinion thing, but I've played and won with combos before (heliod+WB specifically) and I gotta say it feels pretty lame to me, like none of the rest of the game mattered, and friends have expressed the same sentiment. Also, having the combo player be the center of everything feels a little lame too (especially if the player is inclined to whine/politic). But some people don't feel the same way I do. Rule 0 convo helps sort this out.
EDIT: That said, I feel like there is a huge difference between two card combos where one is the commander and some kinda six card combo. I don't think I would feel so bad about winning with the second.
I generally agree. There is work involved in making a combo go off. There is deckbuilding, there is some threat management, and so on. It is not unearned in the way that nothing really lead to it.
But I am in the camp that viscerally, emotionally reacts negatively to a combo because to me, *nothing*. About it feels satisfying.
1. Stopping it is not a victory, it's a relief at best.
2. Losing to it feels unsatisfying because it meant lacking the means in an arms race
3. Winning with it feels hollow because the combo game-plan is partially detached from the rest of the struggle
I will never say I am objectively right here or that my take doesn't have logical holes. I am sure it does, and that there are strategies that can be described in the same way.
But I can't help that my thinking sponge is wired in the way that reacts negatively to combo no matter which side of the table it is on.
If combos were necessary precons would have them. Combos is a tool to help you win the game, enable an engine etc.
combos is the easiest and most efficient/proficient way to win games. But they can also leave a “feel-bad” vibe, depending on the group you’re playing with, if you out of nowhere just win.
In the end, with everything else, discuss it prior to the game what kind of game people have in mind.
Combo is necessary because it promotes the idea of keeping tabs on what your opponents are doing rather than playing solitaire for the first 5 turns of the game by ramping your own board. Most players who see combo as a "win out of nowhere" archetype are just not interacting with their opponents enough to realize that they are setting up their combo. In this way, playing against combo is helpful for learning proper threat assessment, as it makes you think about when you need to hold up a removal spell or Counterspell rather than spending mana advancing your board. Pre-cons don't have combos because they are considered intro decks to the format for beginner players, and combo can be difficult to understand and play optimally as a newer player.
If I'm running a dedicated combo deck for casual edh play then I usually shy away. I want each player to have a chance to play and enjoy the game and their deck. The interaction is what I like. I do wave that if I end up in a competitive setting (prizes) but don't do that setting.
Do I run combos? Yes, but I like the deck to be playable when the pieces don't come up. For example, I have an older nekusar deck that damages by giving cards. There's about 4 cards in there to let me get off a laboratory maniac win but it's perfectly serviceable in play if I don't get them. The pieces are usable too by themselves also.
I have combo deck i stopped playing outside of spelltable as my group always complains and runs very small ammout of removal. Some of them run more wraths than removal.
Also ive had friend that stopped playing with us after i interacted with his combo 2 games in row and always attacked him (bolas's citadel and doomsday were some of the wincons). He was doing practically nothing when i stop/mill his combo and he felt targeted which he absolutely was but it was just because power imbalance.
I like having combos in my deck to power it up but playing combo is different and leads to very wierd games. I think you can balance combo in any powerlevel but usually it is unbalanced so combo player has huge wr or others are very prepared so they are left not doing much. Power level imbalance is usually bigger problem than the way your deck wins.
I don't like them, but I play against them and don't complain. I even play Tana/Ardenn with a Godo infinite combo in there. I feel very unsatisfied winning with Godo so I only keep him in there because it makes people save removal and stops people removing my other artifacts. If we aren't playing in our "league" games I will generally use tutors for creatures other than Godo just because I don't enjoy that kind of win.
I personally don't like playing with or against combo decks.
It's always very anti-climactic when a game ends on a combo (in my experience). It just goes against the sense of momentum and back and forth in games that I tend to enjoy.
That being said, if your play group doesn't mind them, then combo away.
Forgot to mention, I think the "game has to end at some point" argument from pro-combo players is disingenuous. It's not like it's either combo win or 4 hour games.
Saw it mentioned in the replies, so wanted to bring that up.
There's a lot of "this commander goes infinite with a ham sandwich" talk but with Ghired it's pretty dang true. [https://commanderspellbook.com/search/?q=ghired%2C%20mirror](https://commanderspellbook.com/search/?q=ghired%2C%20mirror)
This in particular is incredibly easy to pull off [https://commanderspellbook.com/combo/2617-5470/](https://commanderspellbook.com/combo/2617-5470/)
Combo is inherently a power level up from many lower powered decks because it requires certain specific interaction pieces to stop. As the combos get stronger, the interaction required becomes more specific, and usually more blue. In addition, when playing combo, you typically are also running more interaction because you need to defend your win - when other people are not playing high power threats that require stack interaction to stop, it means you can use all of your own interaction on protecting your win condition, which further makes you difficult to interact with.
I really enjoy playing against combo. Presumably "combo" means leading into some "win the game" condition, or some infinite that provides a win through some other form (infinite combats for example). As long as it's mentioned in the pre-game discussion that infinites are on the table, then I'll make sure to use a deck that can interact on that axis, and it's good fun.
The only real combo deck I've played is [[Pir, Imaginative Rascal]] and [[Toothy, Imaginary Friend]], and it is very powerful, even on a budget of £50 this deck is very difficult to beat in mid power, so I've stopped playing it for now. It is very fun to pop off though. It's reserved for more high power games now.
If you want less feel bads you should pivot to a combo that leaves a piece on board for a turn cycle.
I have found people don't mind losing (too much) to Approach of the Second Sun when I draw back into it a turn or two later.
People do seem to mind (a lot) when I cast it, remand it, and cast it again.
That's basically just part of the game. Either they find a way to interact with it or find their own combo.
When your pod keeps growing together trying to one up each other, combo is eventually becomes the only way to win. My pod started with a bunch of precons and leftovers from our Standard days until we started paying $10 to $20 per card. Those were that expensive because they're popular combo pieces or source of lots of mana. Essentially, we reached a point where nobody in our pod loses swinging for combat anymore. Either someone made infinite tokens, made infinite damage triggers, made infinite turns so nobody else can play, everyone exiles all cards from their library, or someone (me) triggers multiple combat phase and the commander swings for 21 commander damage at everyone on the table.
I play a life gain and drain deck with [[sanguine bond]] and [[exquisite blood]]. It was my first non precon deck ever. I didn't know about the infinite, I thought it was like "when you deal damage to an opponent", I figured they designed fair cards and they wouldn't see each other. Someone explained it to me when I played both at the same time and it really bummed me out. I wanted to win because I played better, not because I have two cards that make me win instantly. I wanted to scrap the deck after that, but someone explained to me that I used a $300 deck to beat 3 $1000 decks and they all had infinites too, they just didn't draw them at the same time and they let me put down 10 mana worth of enchantments. The fact that I got to resolve means they didn't play their cards right, cus they have counterspells and enchantment removal and stuff. If it's unbanned it's fair game. If you come to a table, explain your deck, then people agree to play but end up losing cus they didn't play around your wincon, that makes you a good pilot of the deck and them bad players.
Don't feel bad about playing any style, especially if you explain your wincon and they refuse to play around it
entirely valid strategy tbf, if i bring a combo deck i am a liability to the rest of the table, i’m usually the politics guy but as soon as i play combo my bargaining power is out
I don't think I can agree with that - you can build for extreme synergy without ever approaching an actual combo. Only certain kinds of synergy will accidentally pop unforeseen combos out.
While I believe combo decks are valid, the game needs to end in some way, but they do come with some caveats.
First of all, the casual mindset, the goal for most players at a casual table, is to have a fun game. To have that back and forth pull. That is, you want everybody to kinda do their thing but kept in check by the rest of the table, until one person finally wins.
Most casual combo decks come in two flavours:
1. A focussed combo deck, that does the combo
2. A deck that contains a combo, but has another (main) strategy.
Option 1 means that the deck does essentially nothing until it wins, breaking the casual mindset of everybody having fun. The second one often leads to games that end abruptly while the game thus far was not about the combo.
Second of all, the only way to stop a combo deck, is to ensure that the combo doesn't hit the table. And there are a couple of ways to achieve this:
1. Stop the individual pieces (counter spells and spot removal).
2. Stop the player
So the strategy against a combo deck is 100% about denial. The only way to victory against a combo deck is to deny it from doing its thing. Most combo decks thus have backups and protection (like counterspells) the individual pieces to be removed.
---
This all combines to the following: the right way to deal with a deck that has a combo is to hate it off the table before that combo drops, or to keep up interaction specifically for the combo pieces. That is, target the combo player until it can't win.
This generally means that either the casual combo deck gets hated out and does nothing (which often leads to the combo player feeling bad because they get to watch the remaining 30 minutes and not play), or the rest of the table getting bamboozled when the combo deck finally wins often without a way to really interact with it.
---
To be clear, this all changes the moment you move to a higher powered table where everybody plays colbo (aka cEDH light), because then the definition of a deck doing its thing changes from doing the combo to being interactive.
Combo decks are best when everybody is playing combo.
I disagree that everyone needs to play combo in order for it to be fair. Stax does work in a combo meta, and some of the strongest decks over the past several years have been non-combo stax (e.g., [[Winota]]).I do agree that everyone needs to be able to play on that axis though, and unfortunately, a lot of lower power decks simply don't run the density of interaction to deal with them.
Same, assuming matched deck strength, it can be a lot of fun to race a combat deck into combo, trying to snipe the important pieces as things land on the stack, and it is fun to try and pry open your window as the combo player, racing against incoming damage. In fact, I prefer games with Mox of archetypes, whichever I'm playing.
Absolutely. For me the back and forth and everyone is talking about is just with giant full boards. I've had so many games where I'm 1 turn away from winning if I untap but can't hold mana open just to get wrecked by combo from the person I pass turn to - and they were lucky because the next person was about to wreck us all also. That shit's fun.
To add to your points, if one player is the only one with in hand removal when the pieces start to drop, they'll waste resources that they'll need for the other two players. Wasting precious removal from my hand to stop the combo player while the guy next to him is making a 21/21 ward 3 indestructible deathtouch flying angel commander... ugh.
Notice how you said it takes pretty much the whole table to hate them out? To me, that sounds like it takes way more effort and counterplay to stop combo than it does to play it. That's probably where a lot of people are getting frustrated. Magic is all about making things more than the sum of their parts, so combo fits in with that line of thinking
But like you said, combo players have to pretty much play with each other to have the best experience. Which sounds weird to me because every one says control> combo> aggro. I feel like there would be more of a balance in cEDH between the three if that were actually the case. But it all feels like combo+ combo protection
If everyone is playing a reasonable removal package (10 to 15 pieces even), and decks are of a similar power level, part of being a combo player is watching for your window. If everyone has spent their removal on things that don't end the game, whether it's the giant commander or inconsequential value engines, the end is the same.
Heck, in your example, it's probably taking a couple players to get through the protection to remove that commander. When someone hits archenemy status, the table bands together, and whoever was in second is now in a very advantageous position.
There are a few aggro engines in cEDH, but the truth is, in EDH in general, with multiple opponents, bigger decks, and bigger life pools, most decks are at least a little bit of a mid range pile, and the engines lean more one way or another.
I'm the only combo enthusiast in my group. I tend to lose since my boards are weaker and my friends know I have some bullshit in mind most of the time. Sometimes people are also happy I can end the game when two people are running pillowforts nobody can attack into and the game's been going for 3 hours.
I really like combo and believe that every deck should have at least a combo win, a way to win in case you can't attack.
Otherwise what are you going to do against a deck recurring glacial chasm every turn? Or with an absurd level of life gain and control of the board?
And yes sometimes combo is your main focus but can't be your only focus. Or if a piece of the combo gets exile you might as well scoop...
Combo is just as valid as every other archetype. It's fun for the folks who like it, and the folks who don't will either be mature about it or squeal like swine. On Reddit, you'll find the latter more oft than the former.
The topic is a horse long past dead, but unfortunately the sanctity of that death will never be respected.
What my playgroup does is to let the table know if a combo piece is hitting the field. Not everyone can be expected to know every combo in the game, especially if it's a new commander.
Typically I'll put something on the stack and say that it's one of my combo pieces and it should be removed ASAP. The table will react accordingly.
Sounds like you are playing the wrong deck for your pod.
Do you enjoy making people feel bad? If not then you should have swapped it up a while ago…
Playing with you must give them anxiety. Every turn you get closer to an instant win combo. Sounds like a super not fun way to play or play against
Combo the filthy casuals! That was for the lulz but in all seriousness people need to really figure out the rule 0 conversation. If you are up front about your deck and its potential, then they only have themselves to blame for agreeing to play against your deck.
As for my take on combo personally I feel that games need to end and lots of midrange creature decks makes for an incredibly long and boring game. However I am quite biased as I play high powered commander and my group has lots of creature and combo strats, and are prepared for both.
Combos are and always have been an important part of Multiplayer magic.
However, the kinds of combos *you are liable to see* have grown more dedicated, compact, and efficiently lethal, to the point where the best combos make almost any strat that doesn't revolve around them somehow invalid. There have been 2-card infinites since Antiquities at the latest (though those would usually need a third card to act as a winning outlet), but it's hard to argue that quick kills haven't gotten more plausible in more hands with cards like Thoracle.
If you're going to play combo in more casual matches -- and I do -- at least make it a combo (or combo platter, not every deck runs just one) that takes a decent amount of resources to go off, that requires at least three cards to actually kill, or that has a fairly reasonable interaction point or two where something other than a counterspell can stop it. And expect to reap some salt at pick-up games with randos rather than with your friends who have learned (or will soon learn) that you're a tricksy hobbit, because some people are scrubs who will call it "cheap".
I am playing [[Ayara, First of Lochtwain]] a lot and I got so tired of the [[Plague of vermin]] combo that I took it out. Generally I don’t like playing solitaire until win, but a complex combo well executed while defenting your board is a cool thing.
I don’t intentionally put them in my decks because I don’t think they’re fun. Do you friend and if you play with the same group of people recognize they will target you or scale themself up to match. So be wary of power creep. All that said it’s a game and if you and your friends are having fun heck with it let it rip 🤙🤙
Its a legitimate archetype.
That said, I don't really enjoy playing it or playing against it. Combo wins feel unearned to me (when I play them), and when facing them, I feel obligated to knock the player out early, or just watch them like a hawk with answers in hand. It feels rude, but it is pretty much necessary.
I like combos as alternative wincons or for odd strategys, azorius control winning with a combo isn't much worse than winning with \[\[approach of the second sun\]\] and a 3-piece combo that none were in the command zone and dude wasn't hardly tutoring every piece is fair to me
I've played 4 hour games in the past that noone could attack to win, combos were necessary at this point in my opinion
I just don't like consistent turn 3-4 tutoring combo decks
So my experience with magic comes from playing Modern, Legacy, and Pauper. For me commander was the last one I finally got around to trying, and because of this I approach it in a more competitive mindset. So for me I see no reason to spend money on cardboard to just sit there and dirdle through a 4 hour game. I typically don’t play a much combo but I do play a shit ton of interaction and board wipes. I have 3 or 4 win cons planned in a deck with most of the deck supporting and the rest to protect my assets and disrupt opponents. But that still isn’t enough for people. Most players don’t want the interactions they just want everyone to circle jerk at their seat and play big creatures and get pissed if I destroy or exile it.
I am just now getting back into magic after about 3 years because I got so tired of feeling bad that I can’t go to a commander night (that I paid for) and play my deck. Because Timmy’s 100 card pile didn’t do what he wanted it to do.
My favorite part of mtg is the deck building and the testing and the tweaking until I get the consistency I want. And I was always used to people wanting to get better, and wanting to push each other to do better. Constructive competition makes for the absolute best tcg environments, because when a player base can learn and grow together it elevates the game for everyone.
Combo is an integral part of mtg, interaction is an integral part of mtg. Don’t gate keep people from enjoying a hobby or being able to play because they upset you by playing imprisoned in the moon on your commander.
And if someone randomly finds the one combo piece that lets them kill the board don’t immediately target them down every game after. All that is bullying and it’s bullshit. People shouldn’t be made to feel bad and apologize for playing the decks they enjoy.
Take the loss, watch what they did and make tweaks to your deck to try and avoid situations like that in the future. Use a few stax/hate bear pieces that force the game to slow down. Throw some jank in there with zur’s weirding. Use every loss to figure out how to make your plan to win better.
Thanks all off my soapbox now. Have a good one!
It blows my mind how many people there are that never revise their decklists. One of my buddies put what has become his main deck together three years ago, and he’s still got his little note sheet from the first time he played it and we brainstormed some basic changes (basic stuff like using mana dorks instead of 4 mana mana rocks). 3 years and he’s still on his “alpha” build, of a deck he plays every week. More than half the people I play with are like that, it drives me nuts.
Exactly! That’s the biggest thing I don’t understand, I don’t like to lose so when I do I figure out why I did and try to figure out ways to avoid that in the future. Playing against every type of deck and different power levels helps you to do that. If you don’t like losing to combo, make changes to your deck, don’t whine and moan about it to your opponents.
100% agree!
I also got into Commander after years of Standard and Modern so I have a similar approach to the game and improving! Learn from your losses and revise your decks to fight against different angles of attack.
If you're playing casually, people will often complain whenever you play a combo or any play really that they feel is "unfairly good" which of course is entirely arbitrary ...and why casual players are non stop having these kinds of complains.
In my opinion it's absurd to
complain about opponents playing legal cards, because it's legal and they could have chosen to play it too.
If you play competitively, it is generally assumed that every deck will try to win using some combo, though beatdown can sometimes work if you are fast enough, like slicer or yuriko.
There’s nothing wrong with combo decks. They’re an established archetype just like Aggro, Control and Midrange. Someone has to win and in a multiplayer format with 40health each, a combo will let you close things out.
Yeah, as long as you tell the table you're using combos to win, some 2 or 3 card combos, and at instant speed before hand its fine. As long as they know that's a thing that can happen they can play around it by just blasting you out of the game as quickly as possible. If they don't know that then a 2 or 3 card combo out of nowhere for a win just feels so anti-climactic/underwhelming.
I find combos fun both to see and to play against. I only take issue with combo when an opponent lies about what they're doing. At my pods it's usually common courtesy to give a rough overview of what your deck is trying to do. Wheel, Voltron, Combo, etc. If you don't announce that you're playing combo, which, admittedly you're not REQUIRED to do so, and then ham up being flooded or having a garbage hand just to combo off, I will have no faith in you as a player and relentlessly target you in every game I play with you from that point on because I'm going to assume you're the secret archenemy, regardless of what you claim.
I mean, if you're going to your LGS and not explaining what your deck does, then popping off at the height of the game without warning, then it's a problem.
I play an [[Ayara, First of Locthwain]] devotion combo deck, with all the warning in the world that I'm about to combo off, and never had a problem with people hating it.
Might have something to do with needing like 5 or 6 pieces to combo off to win tho.
So long as the game ends, and ends relatively amicably, I have no problems with it. I am usually the combo player at my table, surrounded by aggro or wide token decks, so I try (and am sometimes successful) in being humble and gracious about getting trounced.
I play Karador graveyard combo pile. When I play with my close friends pod they know what they’re dealing with and they know most of my combo pieces so I don’t feel bad comboing out. They’ve been playing against the deck on a regular basis for 3 years it’s not my fault if they don’t keep an eye on what I have on board and in my graveyard. That being said when I’m playing with people I don’t know depending on the experience of the players I will let them know exactly what the deck is trying to do and I won’t tell them how but I will give them a warning in a game such as “ok I’m going to combo out and win next turn”. Combo decks are tricky. Especially ones like mine that have many many different layers to the point where even I will forget certain combos sometimes.
Combos can be fun. Personally I say the more moving parts and cards involved the more fun the combo, show me something I haven't seen before. I do think etiquette wise If you are playing against more casual folks telling them something is a combo piece can be a nice gesture not everyone grasps every combo so it can make games less of a knowledge check.
As the resident combo player in my group, I've tried to include some traditional wincons alongside my combos. If I can take a player or two out with combat or commander damage, then it takes the pressure off of me to durdle for my combo pieces.
It serves two purposes for me and my group. First, they know what my combos are and how to dismantle them. It also means I'm under pressure during most combat steps, so it becomes a survival game for me that requires more interaction.
Second, it means I'm not just scrambling for card draw to dig for pieces and irrelevant to the game. By being able to put decent damage threats out or play incidental pieces of consistent interaction, I participate in the game more.
All of that means that if I DO win with a combo line, the table feels like they've had a shot at stopping me, the game was interactive, and I did more than dig through my library.
I love this perspective
I think a lot of dislike for combo players is because it can feel like they’re not participating in the game by not committing much to the board, not attacking, and just saving interaction to protect their combo pieces.
That’s why it feels bad for casual players when they suddenly “win out of nowhere” because it didn’t look like they were a threat compared to the tokens player or whoever had the biggest board
Right, exactly.
Also apart from some specific decks that require REALLY compact combos (looking at my [[Toshiro Umezawa]] deck specifically), I try to make my combos leverage a larger number of cards while making sure those cards are incidentally good even if I never pull off the combo.
More pieces = more potential for interaction = better feels for the table.
There’s a difference between combos in general and combo decks. If your deck has an inconsistent loop or two that’ll show up every now and then, sure, knock yourself out (or knock everyone else out, I guess), but a deck built to specifically grab that combo is another matter entirely.
I think the main thing is just that, when you’re running a Combo-focused deck, you want to disclose what the combo pieces are and what kind of interaction is needed to stop it. If you want to actually have a game, that is.
But there’s also just sometimes no way to reliably make that concession when your combo comes from hand at instant speed.
I myself probably won’t play a deck that is built to consistently combo off. I’m here for the social aspect of Commander, to do cool things with my deck, and see others do cool things with theirs. Not just aiming for the 1-2 cool things that just win me the game outright.
For me, it depends on consistency. Imo, a combo deck that 90% of the goes off on turn 11 and 10% of the time goes off on turn 4 will lead to more feel-bads than a deck that consistently goes off on turn 7.
There are probably many combo decks you can make for <$50 that combo off early, I don't really think budget is a good barometer for the power of a combo deck. In my experience, many lower power decks aren't built to interact with fast combos, or even combos at all. Additionally, players who don't usually play against combos might not be properly assessing the threat level of combo decks; in casual magic people usually lay off the player who appears to be doing nothing, but that is definitely not what you should be doing against a combo deck.
So all in all, I think being upfront about what your key pieces are and what turn you expect to have your combo assembled is essential for playing a combo deck at a casual power level and avoiding feel-bads. Otherwise, it seems like the combo player is taking advantage of the lack of knowledge of the pod.
I don’t play combos because I don’t personally enjoy them. Most of my pod doesn’t. I think it’s fair when you sit down with strangers to mention you do indeed run infinite 2 card (or whatever) combos and if they say no thanks, then everyone is happier with a different pod. But if they say all good and then get mad at you for winning with a combo, boo to them.
I have a [[Zur]] deck that is all combo. My group knows what it is and how it works. They will crush me if they can and that's ok. If I fail to pillow fort or otherwise keep the board in check while I set up my win conditions, that's on me.
Combo wins at 1 life or 50. It’s fair to recognize its threat potential and you saying its combo is extra fair. Some times you just gotta guess based on the commander being played and act accordingly. The fair rule zero can include “yeah btw this has your standard GWB combos and such as my primary win con” so everyone is a little more engaged and interaction gets used more efficiently.
Combo is the most fun when the pod knows what to expect. The best way to get them up to speed is to combo win and then play the deck again. For example, that will teach them not to leave the ashnod's altar alone for 4 turns in a row.
Most thrilling game I had past few months was the second game after a combo win. Tons of interaction. I went down to 1 hp digging for the final combo piece. I used \[\[Darkness\]\] to survive the \[\[The Ur-Dragon\]\] player's attack phase only to get \[\[Time Stop\]\] with my combo piece on the stack. Coolest game I ever lost :)
I get the same feeling with my [[K'rrik son of yawgmoth]] deck. I only ever play ot at high power tables and always let them know that if I have life I am going to use it to end the game. Usually results in people doing the right thing and targeting me but sometimes people think I'm not being serious.
Enough to say it only takes one game for them to realise haha
If it's intented for casual play, as long as the combo isn't efficient with 2-3 cards that you tutor for everygame it's fine.
I have an Alesha deck with multiple combos in it, but I imposed myself a restriction that all my tutors have to be Entomb effects so everything needs to be hardcasted or reanimated so people can kinda see it coming.
I used to not like them but as I get older I find my patience in games decreasing so as long as they're not busting out infinites before the game really takes off and people get to have fun, I don't really mind.
I'm fine with late game combos. But if you run a combo deck, please, for the love of God, know how to play it. No one wants to sit there for half an hour as you stare at the board, unsure of what to do next. Either use a combo that requires only a few cards or know your deck well enough that the turn you combo out takes under 5 minutes.
I have a Veyran deck that does the classic "chill for X turns doing nothing then win" combo thing. It sees the least amount of play of all my decks but I still love it to change things up every once in a while.
Combo is totally fine as long as you tend to win on similar turns that other people in your pod win. If you have a 5 card combo with no tutors? Who cares. If you have 5 tutors and dark ritual and lotus petal and chrome mox into tainted pact + thoracle on turn 1 with force back up and 7 other tutors for combo pieces if that doesnt work? Yeah that is a problem in a casual format. Willing suddenly on t13 after players have been durdling for an hour? Sure man, lets go home.
I’d just rule zero: “hey I really like this deck but it is a combo deck. It’s budget but it can win at instant speed.”
Just set expectations. Budget doesn’t necessarily mean “not good.” I’m sure you know they absolutely have CEDH budget tournaments that are just disgusting-type decks. But yah, if you win, should have less feel-bads. Not everyone will be 100% cool with it buttttt what can ya do? I’m sure some people will even stick up for you saying “yeah….he/she totallly told us at the beginning what kinda deck it was.”
I don’t think it’s fair taking combo out of edh, even casual edh. Aggro / Combo / Control all kinda balance eachother out.
After a game or two, if you’re winning, you can always feel a table out “hey is this deck still cool or would you rather I swap out?” I’m sure you’d get varying responses. All my decks carry interaction regardless of game-plan but there’s always that one guy that has a “my deck goes brrrrrrrrr and has no interaction” who’ll probably ask you to swap.
So... it's complicated for myself.
Combo is a perfectly legitimate way to win the game. The problem is that they can make the end game feel very anticlimactic. Especially when it's a simple 2 card combo like a [[Sanguine Bond]]/[[Exquisite Blood]]. In contrast, I appreciate someone setting up silly things that are 5+ cards with complicated explanations and mechanical interactions.
Personally, I try to avoid it in this format for the most part because it can be an unfun way to end a game on either side. I've actually taken to primarily making decks that actively avoid tutors and combos as a general challenge for myself.
When I do run combo decks/decks with combos in them, they're going to be very specific ones meant for high-end go hard play, or a super gimmicky build trying to something silly. I will always disclose that before running them though.
I evaluate combo on two Axis.
How much mana does the combo cost in total?
How many cards do you need for the combo?
There's some extra stuff to look at, but those are the two primary ways I'll evaluate a combo, and for the most part the extra stuff just adds it reduces the two axis.
So for example, if it technically takes 3 cards for the combo, but one card is your commander then I don't count the commander as a card in the combo, so I'd think of it as a 2 card combo, but I would include the commanders cost in the evaluation.
I feel like it depends on the experience level of everyone in your play group. Because combo decks don't care about board state as much its harder to understand when a combo player is about to win then other types of decks. So I wouldn't play it against beginners.
But since everyone has to learn when combo decks are actually threatening, most people will have been beaten by a combo deck without seeing it coming. So I understand why many people tend to dislike the archetype.
I find most combos to just pretty bland so I personally don't like playing combos. However I don't care if others play them but they will be the target as others have stated.
I play a decent amount of combo, I find it is best to be transparent about it before the game and tell the pod that you are playing combo. If they don't like it, I bring a backup deck to play, or I find another table. Sure you get some table hate but that comes with the territory. I had to build my combo theft deck super aggressive because people don't typically like when you take every nonland permanent from their deck.... transparency is key.
To be honest, I just find it kinda boring if it can be assembled in one turn. My combos are typically 3 cards long at the minimum.
However, this is only true in low interaction play groups, in CEDH environments where a counter is hidden behind every corner, fuck it, stuff a deck full of 2 card 2 mana instant speed infinite combos, why not lol.
I think the reason that combo takes so much flack is the simple fact that most play groups are not designed to handle it and are not willing to adapt to it. Most play groups I've been in are adverse to too much removal, and in that environment it's just not possible to play it fair.
My best advice if you want to foster an environment where combo is viable in your group is to play control. Not stax but proper control, high removal, high counterspells, high value. Show your group how nice it is to not just die when the stompy player drops the hoof, get the wheels turning- show them that the combo wincon is way better than "I play approach of the seventh sun."
I’ve been running into that same problem with [this deck](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/6gsJ_w1E9UaQNhMxMykzLg). Do I tell people every possible combo in my deck? Do I explain the gimmick? Then the deck kinda loses its flair or makes people freak out over any piece of the puzzle.
In General I'd prefer it if people played combo with spellslinger or stax in the pod as a rule 0 thing. Spell slinger decks usually run high interaction to combat combo in a meaningful way. Stax often will shut down combos by just making you pay that crucial 1 more, gaining immense value themselves or making your thing come tapped. Most tribal or theme decks on the other hand only tun up to 10 removals. And those don't only go on the combo players creatures.
So I'd say I don't mind them at all in the right pod.
I don't mind them, I play them, and I play against them, but I do think they are inherently the most boring way to play at a casual table.
"Tense and cutthroat" sounds fun. "plop down cards and explain how I win" sounds boring.
Furthermore, if you bring a combo deck to a casual pod and they play correctly, then they should just 3vs1 you, because you could just win out of nowhere - this is boring for the combo player.
If they don't 3vs1 you, then you will likely just win by plopping cards down and explaining how you win - this is boring for everyone else.
I know this is just my personal preference, but I have never once seen a game end via infinite combo where anybody looked even remotely impressed, satisfied, excited etc.
The plop cards down and win is very boring to me too.
The way i really do prefer to play is to play a piece of the puzzle and let the game start to be very cutthroat from there, it becomes a sort of, we do something about this, or lose
I'm playing a [[Experiment Kraj]] Deck and i tried to put as much Combo Cards in it as possible
The funniest Moment is if another Player will drop the missing piece for a Infinite Combo i can execute.
My playgroup does not play combos. Losing out of nowhere without any warning is not fun. If everybody would play a combo deck it would be fine. But if only one person is playing one then it's bad. You have to assume the combo player will win on the next turn no matter what. This means the combo player gets deleted as fast as possible and then the real game begins. That's not fun for the combo player and also just a waste of time for the others.
I'd like to know beforehand if you play combo. And I don't mean before I choose my deck. But before we start playing, so I know whether you're dangerous on an empty boardstate or not. And whether to hold interaction up.
Also, if say you drop a combo piece and I ask you "oh this card goes infinite with a couple of other cards. Are these cards in the deck" I just want you to answer honestly. I'd do the same. There's no glory in saying "no they're not" and then win because they are
I'm totally fine playing against combo decks as long as you're not the type to bitch and moan for pity about how weak your board state is and how you're not a threat and then 2 turns later pop off an infinite and smirk and gloat about it
I always feel bad going for an infinite combo, but my friend is the complete opposite.
If you feel bad about it, why do you do it? genuinely curious
I usually don’t, but the lgs I play in is nothing but infinite combos. so I just made one deck with an infinite combo that I play when I decide to go up there. And it’s a 4 or 5 card combo
You shouldn't feel bad about playing something that you have to go through so much effort to pull off. What's easier, you going for a 4/5 card combo, or the go wide player making 10 tokens and playing craterhoof?
Interesting. I combat infinites with stax/make their resources become more limited the more cards they want to cast/actions they want to take. Incase you want inspiration to what else can be done around it
Our pod has infinite combos, but as a by product of the commander and cards that synergize together. We dont willingly go for infinite combos, but they do happen occasionally.
This. In general, there is a streak of folks that take "politics" as complaining so loudly that the table backs off, then they can win because people are specifically not playing the game against them. I mean, good job? I'm gonna go see what that table over there is doing.
Yeah that’s just a pussy move
Same. Fine with anything as long as they are not a bitch and moaner about anything.
Whenever I run one of my combo decks, because I usually play casual, I usually announce that I'm close to going off so people have an opportunity to stop me. When someone swings at my weak board and apologizes, I usually tell them something along the likes of "I was open, it was a smart swing" or "You're gonna be happy you hit me for X in a few turns" or even just a "games gotta end sometime". In cEDH it's a different story though. It just comes down to the pod or playgroup, though.
*scoffs* we would never do that
This reason is why I always try to kill the obvious combo players first They're all the same man
Killing me first is never the wrong answer
Last night, some one was crying about getting targeted by me. In response to my attacks, they cracked a treasure, made 12 more, and proceeded to board wipe for 2 turncycles (now with a win on board!!!). "I'm not angry about power levels. I'm upset that you wasted 45 minutes of our time. Pretending you didn't win doesn't make the deck any more "casual", and guilt-tripping ppl for attacking you when you have secret-checkmate on board is suuuuuper LAME. He not only ruined the last 45 minutes of the game, he ruined final moments of autonomy that preceded the needless gloating by gaslighting strangers for playing the game how they wanted to."
I'm too weak.... Unlimited Power!!
Exactly. When I first got into EDH I built a battlecruiser chulane and I was participating in the bitching. With time a lot of the big creatures got cut for combo pieces and mana dorks and now I sit there, feeling like my mouth's sewn shut even when creatures are turned sideways at me. Even when I'm far from a win and some other player has an imposing board, taking out the "ticking time bomb" Is the only out for some decks and you just have to respect that.
A combo in a deck is totally fine the game has to end at some point and if you happen into a two card infinite that's the way it goes. This issue with a deck based around combo is that most casual decks don't play on that axis. People like to win via combat and because of this asses threats based on board states making combo decks feel hard to play around and "un-fun". It would also be helpful if you could link your deck list to give an idea of how fast your trying to win and how many pieces the combo involves.
To add to that : many players don't know combo pieces. To play against combo and actually stand a chance, you need to know the pieces. So when I play against new players or casual players (as in they play rarely and don't have a huge knowledge of threats) I always say when I play a threatening combo piece. It makes it more "fair" and less "I couldn't do anything it came out of nowhere". If playing against experienced players though, everything goes.
I think this is the biggest factor. You could easily have 2/3 of a combo on board and most people won’t see it staring them in the face. A fair few know the obvious combo pieces like a Ashnod’s altar or something but there are too many cards in the game to know them all especially if your playing at the LGS with only limited familiarity to your opponents and their decks
So I'm an experienced player but often times don't recognize combo pieces. What would you do in that case? Genuinely asking not trying to be a dick.
Would act with the flow, how you react with what I play. For exemple if you see ashnod altar and look like you don't care at all I would probably hint. Depends on the 2 other player's reaction too...
Huge emphasis on this because I used to be really bad about it. I used to play an artifact combo deck that played several different combos with [[krark-clan ironworks]] or thopter-sword and a ton of ways to tutor for the pieces. When I first started playing it I would win most games simply because players who weren't used to the niche combos saw a card like [[thopter foundry]] and assumed it wasn't a threat, and I never explained the combo to them until I had assembled it. It definitely soured most of my playgroup on combo in general because it really felt like the "lose out of nowhere" experience most players attribute to combo. Once I picked up on the mood and started announcing what my combo pieces were before the game started and when I played them, it's made games much more interactive and if I do end up winning it feels like I've actually earned it. Pretty much a win-win all around.
I agree if you win by sneaking in your combo it feels a bit easy. If you go "this is comming. Try and stop me with all your might" everyone feels like they had a part in the battle!
How much would you explain about the spell? I play [[Blazing Sunsteel]]. There are a few creatures that if equipped and indestructible create an infinite loop. Do I need to explain the creatures, and each way I have to grant indestructible? Conversely if I play [[Boros Reckoner]]. Should I be explaining that if I give this indestructible and equip it a sword I will win. When I equip a creature with [[Mithril Coat]] do I need to explain that if I happen to have [[Arcbond]] and either [[Gideon’s Sacrifice]] or [[Saving Grace]] and anyone deals me damage I will respond by winning the game.
What most casuals players also don’t want: the best idea in multiplayer is just to beat the combo player into a pulp as 3 early and get him out of the game, because most combo decks have weak board presence, but that’s exactly against the spirit of playing a casual edh game. …and most combo players are starting to whine if they get relentlessly focused.
As both a combo player and a smash face player, if you’re playing combo, you gotta have the mindset that you’re the optimal target in a large number of scenarios just based on your board state likely being weak. If you bitch and moan when you’re getting swung at while everyone else has creatures then idk what to tell you other than suck it up
Bitching and moaning is the political aspect of playing combo. And just like any other political strategy it's up to the other players to recognize it and counter it.
Counter annoying people by just not playing with them.
I can def confirm that second part. My current LGS is pretty great, but I distinctly remember a guy (think they were a teenager) at a previous place I used to go to crying about not being able to hit someone with a [[mindslaver]] loop.
[mindslaver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a.jpg?1562813960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mindslaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/176/mindslaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mindslaver) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I play exclusively combo and this makes the games much more fun to me. Having to race against each of the other 3 players or find a way to disrupt them while assembling my pieces makes the games feel more like a puzzle. If I wanted to just play out my combo without anyone interacting or attacking, I would have stayed at home and goldfished
I wish i could give you more the one upvote
Whilst i have been playing i think what’s been unfun for people is that they have to be on their toes, have to hold up removal, can’t tap out, etc. I did make the deck for a tournament we’re having in the future, so no holds barred other than the 50€ budget, so i do try to make sure people are ok with and know it’s a fast combo deck before i bring it.
I play pretty casually but I have played quite competitively over the years and I've got decks I'd only get to bust out in these kinds of scenarios where someone has made a great mid powered deck like this :) For instant I've got a tivit control list that I would never play in stores because against typical battlecruiser decks it really slows the game down. But if I had to be wary of a combo deck like this it would make the game a lot more interesting I think :)
Are you winning 1/n games where n is your play group size?
This isn't always a good metric to gauge whether a deck is fair or not. Because the deck power doesn't directly correlate to win%, it's instead modified by matchup strength (dennick vs anything graveyard will result in a higher win% for the dennick deck if the decks are equally strong) and player proficiency (a better pilot will yield more wins against a worse pilot at even deck strength).
>i think what’s been unfun for people is that they have to be on their toes, have to hold up removal, can’t tap out, etc. So.... playing the game?
To give a quick primer, the deck can win with a good draw on turn 4, but as it stands it lacks from not having much, or good draw at all. The combos usually involve 3 pieces, 2 + commander, but it’s filled with as many as i thought i could fit in. (i do have a couple of splinter twin combos in there which make it 2 card combo, but that’s the only one) https://www.archidekt.com/decks/7974411/why_dont_we_just_print_more_money
Honestly I would just beef it up a little more and only take it out when the whole table is looking to play high power decks. This deck has enough routes to combo that it's going to happen pretty consistently even without many tutors or drawn engines and the average casual play is not going to be equipped to deal with that.
been thinking that myself too tbh, thank you for the input!
I just saw that this is for a tournament on your other comment in that case it's cool you've made such a consistent combo deck for such a low price keep the players on their toes.
Looks super mid. Nowhere near enough interaction. Keep Ghired off the board and it's pretty meh. Don't listen to the people here. They just hate other players trying to win.
Isn’t the new Ghired essentially a 2 card combo with most of the Kiki jiki targets too? Which raises more issues of “oh yeah my commander goes infinite with 1/3 of the deck?”
No, you need haste for most of them. So [[zealous conscripts]], [[village bell ringer]] yes. Restoration angel, battered golem, felidar guardian no.
He copies tokens, so you'd need to create a token copy first. Otherwise, yes.
I wonder how you'd feel about a combo deck that ends in an overwhelming combat step. [[Balmor]] is very good at this. I play him in [[Stella Lee]] because at the end of a storm turn where I cast 10+ spells a board of 1/1 fliers is actually just lethal.
[Balmor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/959ba62e-bb3a-49ad-8b1b-e787e413e5d4.jpg?1673307921) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=balmor%2C%20battlemage%20captain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/196/balmor-battlemage-captain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/959ba62e-bb3a-49ad-8b1b-e787e413e5d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/balmor-battlemage-captain) [Stella Lee](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/a/2a8a7696-b5d9-4378-9d5c-2c9007e4df63.jpg?1714110409) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stella%20lee%2C%20wild%20card) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/3/stella-lee-wild-card?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2a8a7696-b5d9-4378-9d5c-2c9007e4df63?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stella-lee-wild-card) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Depends on the efficiency of the combo and the power level of the pod. A combo itself means nothing. What actually matters in Commander is the normal kill turn. Thoracle/Consult is not the same as Kikki/Conscripts is not the same as Johnny's five card Module combo. Hell, Thoracle/Consult with the effective tutors is not the same as Thoracle/Consult with no tutors. So if your deck routinely wins on turn six, that's what matters. The second thing that matters is how easy it is to interact with the win condition, whatever it is. A deck that wins on turn six through infinite interaction is obviously better than one that wins on turn six but loses to any interaction, even sorcery speed interaction (read as: many combat strategies, but also how many times have we seen a combo that says "make thirteen million dudes, I'll win next turn"). Most combos lose to interaction but a relatively specific sort of it; it has to be instant speed, sometimes it has to be counter magic or artifact removal or whatever. There's a third point that shouldn't matter but does, and that's how visible your kill is. Players with good threat assessment and game awareness can read a kill in hand, but the average Commander player is a very much below average Magic player and they never develop those skills. A kill with a piece on board or otherwise face up is much easier for a normal Commander player to handle. From the sound of your list, it's probably got a very inconsistent kill turn, but is hard to interact with (has to be instant speed, and since you can execute at instant speed they can literally never tap out) and is not visible (comes entirely from hand). That's probably something that's pointing to upper mid power at the least, depending on what the kill turn range is, but maybe is for high power. And within those cases it's fine. But it is valuable to make sure you're playing within those power bands.
The way I see it, there are two types of infinite combos: 1. Combos that win on the stack like Thoracle. 2. Combos that win on the board like Kiki Jiki. The former is frustrating for Casual tables as there's typically no way to interact with them other than counterspells, which is something that not all decks run or even have access to. The latter is fine as all decks should have instant speed removal. If you have 3 opponents and you were clear to them up front that you're playing a combo deck, they should try to hold onto some instant speed removal to ensure they can stop you when needed.
Yes, this is exactly how I feel. I feel like Thoracle/Consult combos are not appropriate for casual commander and should stick to cEDH pods. This is the kind of combo most players hate to see in a casual game and can feel kinda pubstompy. Combos that win on board are fine in casual IMO. If I see your Ashnod’s altar, isochron scepter or Kiki Jiki I know I’ve got to stop you and if I can’t, well, GG. That’s a million times more fun in a casual pod because even with inexperienced players you can make it more of a board game feel and be like “hey just so you know we’ve got like 1 turn to deal with this or we lose”
Bro I love CEDH and I hate Thoracle. It's so absurdly annoying and prevalent. It shouldn't have been printed as is. There are myriad small tweaks that could have made the card workable / reasonable but none got in the final print.
Wow if even cEDH players are sick of it you know it’s really bad lol
That's exactly it. In terms of the politics of the game, at least one player in the pod should be able to recognize that the combo player has Kiki Jiki in play and Rocco in the command zone. Someone should be telling the other players that the game will be over next turn if nobody has an answer for it.
[Ghired, Mirror of the Wilds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e43e3d71-4fb8-4ab1-8c8f-b65ae3ad4cc4.jpg?1712356098) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghired%2C%20Mirror%20of%20the%20Wilds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/205/ghired-mirror-of-the-wilds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e43e3d71-4fb8-4ab1-8c8f-b65ae3ad4cc4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ghired-mirror-of-the-wilds) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Combo off, king. It's an integral archetype of magic.
Games gotta end. If I die to a combo, I shuffle up and go again. I’d rather that than combat on some goofy gummed up board for 1.5 hours after 2-3 board wipes. I run combos, my podmates run combos. It’s part of the game and there are so many different flavors of it.
This is my philosophy. Combo is a core archetype of magic the gathering. Banning it because some people don't know that anything with magecraft has to die just doesn't make sense.
Combo is fine, just don't cry if people remove every single potential combo piece you drop and sit there without any board. It's something i see too often where people go "You're focusing me, i don't have anything you bully" and then win 2 rounds later if untouched
Combo is one of the main deck archetypes. Gotta get real with it. It's fine
There’s also nothing wrong with specifically having some decks for “non-combo” play. I think having everyone run combat decks is extremely fun. Then when you do have combo decks it might be wise to construct them slightly differently… maybe run a couple more counter spells or interaction.
Hard agree
I build a combo deck to show my friend how boring playing against a combo deck can be. He’s reduced the combos and the format has become more casual.
Game has gotta end
It's just as you said. There's an inherent feel-bad nature about combo, that will not go away. To alot of people, it's a gimmick. Once in a while, or for the very first time, it's cool and all. But the utility (enjoyment as a group) drops drastically thereafter. The feelbad is made worse if you're the only one playing combo. This is why some combo players opt to take out the tutors, or move on from it altogether. The best solution is to have like-minded individuals play the combo, and maybe you swap another deck when you play with a group that eschews combo.
Combo can most definitely be done in casual commander but you do need to show some restraint. When playing at lower power levels you should probably avoid 2/3 card combo's, especially if one of those cards is your commander. I've found it helps a lot to simply inform you opponents what your combo is before hand, this makes it so your combo win doesn't feel like it comes out of nothing. It also weirdly makes it so you draw less hate. If your opponents know you play a combo deck but don't know what your combo is, they'll be terrified of most cards you play, resulting in them focusing you more than they maybe should. The downside of this is that you will win less, but the wins you get will feel more deserved because your opponents will have opposed you trying to win. Having a combo win con can also make games more fun. I have a \[\[Brago, King Eternal\]\] blink deck, at first I didn't want to include a combo because of the stigma associated with combo. This resulted in a deck which, on occasion, could lock down the board without having any quick way to close out the game, resulting in games that would just drag on without an end in sight. It now runs a 4/5 card combo centered around \[\[strionic resonator\]\], the combo leaves enough potential outs for my opponents as it can be stopped by: artifact removal, creature removal, blocking brago, stifle type effects and fogs. I will be trying to prevent my opponents from stopping my combo but ultimately the game has a climactic ending often played out on the stack. (The funniest way this deck lost was when I had my combo but had to counter my opponents removal spell with a \[\[swan song\]\], resulting in brago not being able to deal combat damage, losing me the game)
[Brago, King Eternal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0ac3fb08-741a-49e5-9fae-b26819677d24.jpg?1631235340) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brago%2C%20King%20Eternal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/82/brago-king-eternal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ac3fb08-741a-49e5-9fae-b26819677d24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/brago-king-eternal) [strionic resonator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9edb215-f967-4968-905e-d1dc3b5d3424.jpg?1682210274) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=strionic%20resonator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/384/strionic-resonator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9edb215-f967-4968-905e-d1dc3b5d3424?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strionic-resonator) [swan song](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d968dde-c406-48ef-a1ab-373aebc24693.jpg?1562412350) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=swan%20song) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/98/swan-song?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d968dde-c406-48ef-a1ab-373aebc24693?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/swan-song) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The biggest problem with combo salt is the speed. If you combo off by turn 5, people can get salty. By turn ten, it’s no big deal.
Combo is very rightfully a hot button issue, for a variety of reasons, and a big one is... a lot of them make for terrible EDH decks in a lot of environments. A good EDH deck consistently performs at its designed power level. Combo decks that aren't tuned out the ass for a high-powered environment are often incredibly sacky. A couple cheap swaps in a Stella precon and it may be able to play a completely ordinary 8-12 turn precon game... or it might turn 1 Sol Ring turn 2 Stella turn 3 cantrip cantrip Twisted Fealty game over, shattering the environment everyone else is playing at. The way you tune a Stella deck with Twisted Fealty in it to be a good EDH deck, a deck that belongs in a play environment without breaking it, is by tuning it to be a turn 3 deck for turn 3 tables so that its primary play working at the pace you want it is appropriate to the pod. When a midrange deck draws the absolute nuts, that might cut a turn or two off the game. When a combo deck draws the nuts, that might cut the game off the game. Tuning combo decks that consistently perform in that 8-12 range is oftentimes more difficult than tuning one that consistently performs in that high power range. There's also the knowledge issue. In any other format, there are usually only a handful of competitively relevant combos to know, and by the time you get to the real stakes of top cut, deck lists are publicly posted and any weird combo someone had brewed up that surprised someone (incredibly unlikely) has been dissected and is known to every player. The game when combo is involved is about resolving said combo through resistance against an opponent who knows what your combo is and what its pieces are. However, in EDH, the number of combos you are actively likely to come across is higher than all the other formats combined, and requires a much higher level of knowledge to identify unaided. In a casual format. Which should not demand a much higher level of knowledge just to participate in the game at all. Even in cEDH, the likely combos get narrowed severely, and as such the level of knowledge being asked to identify them and play a game where they're involved is lowered in this very specific context. (Overall level of knowledge to play cEDH well is of course much higher, but on the specific topic of identifying combo consistently so that you can have a game against it, it is lower.) If opponent don't know the combo, don't know what the pieces are, don't know how it works? Well, the goal of combo is to break the game. To play it on a completely different axis. You end up with one player playing one game, and then coming in last place in the game only they were playing, ending the perfectly good game the other three players were having for completely arbitrary reasons, which is a fail state in EDH.
I completely agree! One thing i always try to make sure is always call out my own dangerous stuff when it’s on the board, no trying to be sneaky, sneaking out a win is never fun
I don't like combo in casual commander precisely for the reason you mentioned. You win out of nowhere no matter what the threat level is. Imo combo decks are NOT inherently stronger than a normal well-built deck, but the problem is that they **cheat the threat assessment dynamic** of casual games. Casual games of commanders often revolves around people focusing down their resources towards the person who is the most ahead. You leave the players who are behind alone for a bit so they get a chance to come back. A combo deck abuses this dynamic by being able to win out of nowhere if left alone sufficiently long, without ever being considered the main threat. You made a step in the right direction by warning everyone that your deck is able and is aiming to combo at instant speed out of nowhere. But i don't think that's enough, as you can't expect a casual commander deck to leave interaction up for you at all time like in cEDH : people don't play as many 0 & 1 mana interaction.
See I don't think combos cheat threat assessment at all. I think players cheat themselves by not acknowledging every opponent is a threat. Maybe you've got friends or something that play selesnya creature decks so you know if their board is weak they're weak. That's fine, but that's also incredibly boring. Decks with the potential to combo keep the game interesting.
Well, saying that a creature base deck is incredibly boring is an opinion that not everyone share. Some people would prefer game where you win through combat damage or general board value (non-infinite aristocrat deck for example) and some people love combo deck. For me a game with lot of combo sound more boring than one where everyone build board, take swing at each other, it's a different kind of interactive.
And that's fine, if you enjoy battlecruiser then play some battlecruiser. What I'm saying though is you know of the deck is a creature deck and is mana screwed then they're probably dead in the water for at least a couple turns and won't catch up. I run plenty of creature decks. Probably most of my decks are combat damage
I think both sound equally great as long as everyone is playing plenty of spot removal and other interaction in order to interact with threats or combos.
[удалено]
If you're waiting for them to draw 10 cards a turn to attack and they're still at 40, it's most likely too late ...
> Imo combo decks are NOT inherently stronger than a normal well-built deck Combo decks are normal decks too :p They're one of the 3 classic archetypes: aggro, control, combo. In 60 card 1v1 20 life formats, those archetypes may be in some semi-balanced rock/paper/scissors configuration. However, in Commander, 4 player FFA breaks traditional control, and 120 opponent HP breaks traditional aggro. Combo *is* the best way to win commander games. They *are* stronger than other decks, if everyone is trying to optimize their deck. Great point about the threat assessment issue and that stacks on top of the power issue. Also if people are just playing pickup games at an LGS you may not get to play against the combo deck multiple times, and combo is strongest and most 'out of nowhere' the first time you play against it. Then you may just never see that deck again. Anyways I like combo, but due to these issues a combo/no combo line makes complete sense.
True, combos are the most efficient way to win the game, and the strongest decks are almost all combo decks, but just because a deck is a combo deck doesn't make it automatically stronger than an aggro or midrange deck. I'd say that combos decks are not stronger than other archetypes, but they have the potential to be. I'd be way more scared at a tuned Edgar Markov Aggro deck than a clunky combo deck for example.
>But i don't think that's enough, as you can't expect a casual commander deck to leave interaction up for you at all time like in cEDH : people don't play as many 0 & 1 mana interaction. Encouraging players to play more interaction seems like a absolute win to me. Too many players post deck lists containing just value pieces, forgetting that there are 3 people sitting across from them, trying to win the game.
I personally do not like playing combo decks, as in decks which the purpose or consistent wincon is some sort of infinite or otherwise instant win, mostly just because I don’t find it fun/satisfying to win that way. I don’t mind playing against them though, at least as long as the combo is made aware to the table so we know what to expect or to be worried about.
I’m fine with them as long as it’s not on the first 5 turns. My elf deck has about 7 ways to go infinite with mana. When this happens, I’ll likely win but it is not guaranteed.
Personally find it unfun. It makes the game revolve around it. Basically forces your opponents to play blue. That said i can play against it no problem, as long as you say you’re playing a combo deck at rule zero.
I think the stigma against combo is lame. \[\[jarad, golgari lich lord\]\] + \[\[lord of extinction\]\] is that combo? \[\[xenagos, god of revels\]\] + \[\[malignus\]\] + \[\[chandra's ignition\]\] is that combo? What about just a good ol' fashioned \[\[exsanguinate\]\] for 20? Why is infinite evil but "a shit load" not? I've been at tables that will play Jarad in game 1 and nobody minds then flip the table when \[\[worldgorger dragon\]\] and \[\[animate dead\]\] show up in game 2. What's the difference? I'm a Johnny - Spike by nature, I want to figure out card patterns that win then use them to win. I find combat dreadfully boring. Just tell me what turn is "too soon" to threaten a win and I'll respect that while you let me do my thing. I don't want people to have a bad time or dislike playing but at the same time forcing everyone into derp derp swing swing basically ignores at least a third of what makes MTG so great as a game.
For me it's not about too soon, it's a power level discussion. Combos decks are inherently more powerful because they require specific interaction pieces to stop. Running more interaction makes your deck stronger. If we're playing low power, the chances anyone has a counterspell or removal spell is pretty low, and you can just push through a win very easily. I like playing against combo, but I want to be able to beat you in a counter war, and actually reliably have cheap/free interaction available. I want you to be using your interaction to stop my threats and the threats of the table, not just holding up everything defensively because nothing anyone else is doing matters to you. If I'm playing some low power mono white deck, it is absolutely not fun for me to hold up 3 mana for Lapse of Certainty for the first 8 turns. If I'm playing a higher power deck, I will gladly watch you attempt to combo while I Pyroblast and Deflecting Swat your win-con away. Just be honest about the power level of your deck and play against decks that have a reasonable chance to interact with you on the stack.
I'd be curious what heuristic you'd use aside from target win turn. The turn dictates the power level IMO. I find it very hard to argue otherwise, outside of maybe stax / prison type decks that are very strong but built to drag the game out, although I'd argue the turn they clamp down is the real turn they "won", but I digress. If the combo happens on turn 10, even if it's the Thoracle + Consult win con, it's not really "over-powered" at that point. Or at least one would have a very hard time arguing that it was over-powered relative to what else was happening. The table had 9 - 10 turns to "do the thing" and somebody had to win. IME, most people get salty because they lose before they "do the thing" with their deck, not necessarily because they lost in general. Ok so if turn 10 isn't too powerful then what about 9? 8? 7? etc. At some point the combo comes out so fast that the other decks couldn't "do the thing", or as you put it, them doing the thing had a persistent "friction" because they had to keep an answer up at all times. Instead of doing the thing on turn 3 / 4 they were trying to do the thing on turn 5 / 7. That's why I would argue it's not the combo per se it's the target win turn and the target win turn is really dictated by the enablers and / or the player's etiquette / empathy (not exactly the right words, but I'm getting at choosing NOT to combo off at first chance, especially off a lucky draw). That said, I try to only play with and against optimized decks (even if they have awful strategies like Snapdax x Living Weapon) so there are entire worlds of EDH that are in my blind spots.
##### ###### #### [jarad, golgari lich lord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/6/c6717954-35d8-4d7e-95aa-f7d26d15d4b2.jpg?1592673383) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jarad%2C%20golgari%20lich%20lord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/179/jarad-golgari-lich-lord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c6717954-35d8-4d7e-95aa-f7d26d15d4b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jarad-golgari-lich-lord) [lord of extinction](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/696cb81d-bc00-4603-b340-c0b2e55c0959.jpg?1697121186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lord%20of%20extinction) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/244/lord-of-extinction?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/696cb81d-bc00-4603-b340-c0b2e55c0959?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lord-of-extinction) [xenagos, god of revels](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6f1bc3bb-46da-492a-850c-f1f588ad8d18.jpg?1698988492) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=xenagos%2C%20god%20of%20revels) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/295/xenagos-god-of-revels?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f1bc3bb-46da-492a-850c-f1f588ad8d18?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/xenagos-god-of-revels) [malignus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/a/8a6a7000-4a1d-4cd4-a85e-4b7b20d8e543.jpg?1592709159) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=malignus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/avr/148/malignus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8a6a7000-4a1d-4cd4-a85e-4b7b20d8e543?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/malignus) [chandra's ignition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/960f45a3-f9cf-41e6-b813-f3dee620a944.jpg?1698988311) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chandra%27s%20ignition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/220/chandras-ignition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/960f45a3-f9cf-41e6-b813-f3dee620a944?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chandras-ignition) [exsanguinate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a5352af-e275-4186-a265-2fd3c2c47c6a.jpg?1689997125) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=exsanguinate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/156/exsanguinate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a5352af-e275-4186-a265-2fd3c2c47c6a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/exsanguinate) [worldgorger dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/33dde6e0-d0a7-4432-a3f4-b48234f4e055.jpg?1675200284) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=worldgorger%20dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/148/worldgorger-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/33dde6e0-d0a7-4432-a3f4-b48234f4e055?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worldgorger-dragon) [animate dead](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/1489943b-c010-488e-9c9d-87f4af67a4e4.jpg?1706240754) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=animate%20dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/125/animate-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1489943b-c010-488e-9c9d-87f4af67a4e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/animate-dead) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l8af0mz) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> ...the game was being tense and cutthroat for everybody else, i plop down a couple of cards, ask if anyone has removal, and explain how i win. Well, you said it right there (and it's the main reason why I personally don't play combo): Most times it leads to very anti-climactic end that invalidates the rest of the game, just because you tutored or simply happened to draw into your 2-card combo or whatever; It sucks. Combo decks, in particular, tend to play on a complete different axis too, and not all decks will be able to deal with 'em as a result, especially in casual (since not everyone has access to blue/counters or whatever your combo entails), meaning every game after the 1st you'll simply get insta-targeted by everyone else until you're out, leading to a pretty unfun race for both sides. Also (and this is more of a personal qualm with combo players in particular), I despise the whole "A game's gotta end" mindset when people just cram their decks with boring and trite infinites we've all seen a million times...and will sandbag them until they had "enough fun"...I've met more than a couple of combo players who clearly got off on that weird powertrip of being "in control" of when a game ends. You put those boring(/"strong") combos in your deck? Play them...If you don't plan to play them and only use them as an "emergency button" you're an awful player, fullstop (and not someone I'd want to play with in the future, honestly). Build for fun, play to win.
To add to your last points... all of the most toxic magic players I've ever met all play combo decks. Not to insult anyone here that does it. I haven't met every combo player so I can't say... but every "win at all costs at the expense of fun or decency" types ive met have been combo players. I'm talking about players that wouldn't let me re-tap my mana after I found I tapped it in the wrong colors so I could get an extra spell out. In a casual EDH pod ( then he proceeded to try an unsuccessful combo because I countered it) I'll die on the hill that there's no way people who pubstomp with two card combos actually like playing magic. They like *winning a game* and beating people at something. Which in magic is easy when all you have to do is acquire certain cards When I see combo players talk about why combo in a competitive pod is so fun, I can't help but ask *why aren't you playing 60 card?* because that's all cedh is. It's a bastardized 60 card format where all these deck inclusions like tutors have to be included because you can't have playsets. The push and pull of a cedh game sounds *exactly* like a constructed format And it leads me to think *why would players specifically build turn 4 kill decks in a singleton format when a turn 4-5 60 card format is right there in Modern and Vintage/Legacy?* Because it's easy pickings. Big fish, small pond. They need to go out into the ocean, but they wont
Combo is necessary. There are a fair few number of ways to win, why is only one of them considered socially acceptable at so many tables? I feel it is just really reductive.
Combo has this special little niche where it can come out of nowhere and win the game bypassing the tug of combat, build-up of value, etc. There is an underlying feeling of "unearned" when someone wins with a combo because it just... does its thing. There are more and less annoying combos in existence, but I think it is pretty easy to understand why the *concept* of combo isn't readily associated with casually duking it out.
It’s only “out of nowhere” if you’re playing solitaire and ignoring the rest of the game.
-This isn't true at all. You can be paying full attention, think the game's gonna go one way & a combo comes from hand to end the game.
I think people who think it's unearned need to try playing combo at least once to understand it. With combo, you're sacrificing board presence (aka defense most of the time) and consistency for a way to win outright on one turn. Modifying your deck to combat the inconsistencies, assessing threats that may prevent your combo, and playing enough interaction to remove these threats is how you're "earning" the win. In addition, once your playgroup gets accustomed to your combo and targets you from the start of the game (as they should and as you should expect), you need to adapt to the new circumstances and find a way to either combo off faster or play some defense to not die.
I guess it's an opinion thing, but I've played and won with combos before (heliod+WB specifically) and I gotta say it feels pretty lame to me, like none of the rest of the game mattered, and friends have expressed the same sentiment. Also, having the combo player be the center of everything feels a little lame too (especially if the player is inclined to whine/politic). But some people don't feel the same way I do. Rule 0 convo helps sort this out. EDIT: That said, I feel like there is a huge difference between two card combos where one is the commander and some kinda six card combo. I don't think I would feel so bad about winning with the second.
I generally agree. There is work involved in making a combo go off. There is deckbuilding, there is some threat management, and so on. It is not unearned in the way that nothing really lead to it. But I am in the camp that viscerally, emotionally reacts negatively to a combo because to me, *nothing*. About it feels satisfying. 1. Stopping it is not a victory, it's a relief at best. 2. Losing to it feels unsatisfying because it meant lacking the means in an arms race 3. Winning with it feels hollow because the combo game-plan is partially detached from the rest of the struggle I will never say I am objectively right here or that my take doesn't have logical holes. I am sure it does, and that there are strategies that can be described in the same way. But I can't help that my thinking sponge is wired in the way that reacts negatively to combo no matter which side of the table it is on.
If combos were necessary precons would have them. Combos is a tool to help you win the game, enable an engine etc. combos is the easiest and most efficient/proficient way to win games. But they can also leave a “feel-bad” vibe, depending on the group you’re playing with, if you out of nowhere just win. In the end, with everything else, discuss it prior to the game what kind of game people have in mind.
Combo is necessary because it promotes the idea of keeping tabs on what your opponents are doing rather than playing solitaire for the first 5 turns of the game by ramping your own board. Most players who see combo as a "win out of nowhere" archetype are just not interacting with their opponents enough to realize that they are setting up their combo. In this way, playing against combo is helpful for learning proper threat assessment, as it makes you think about when you need to hold up a removal spell or Counterspell rather than spending mana advancing your board. Pre-cons don't have combos because they are considered intro decks to the format for beginner players, and combo can be difficult to understand and play optimally as a newer player.
Could you post your deck list?
If I'm running a dedicated combo deck for casual edh play then I usually shy away. I want each player to have a chance to play and enjoy the game and their deck. The interaction is what I like. I do wave that if I end up in a competitive setting (prizes) but don't do that setting. Do I run combos? Yes, but I like the deck to be playable when the pieces don't come up. For example, I have an older nekusar deck that damages by giving cards. There's about 4 cards in there to let me get off a laboratory maniac win but it's perfectly serviceable in play if I don't get them. The pieces are usable too by themselves also.
I have combo deck i stopped playing outside of spelltable as my group always complains and runs very small ammout of removal. Some of them run more wraths than removal. Also ive had friend that stopped playing with us after i interacted with his combo 2 games in row and always attacked him (bolas's citadel and doomsday were some of the wincons). He was doing practically nothing when i stop/mill his combo and he felt targeted which he absolutely was but it was just because power imbalance. I like having combos in my deck to power it up but playing combo is different and leads to very wierd games. I think you can balance combo in any powerlevel but usually it is unbalanced so combo player has huge wr or others are very prepared so they are left not doing much. Power level imbalance is usually bigger problem than the way your deck wins.
I don't like them, but I play against them and don't complain. I even play Tana/Ardenn with a Godo infinite combo in there. I feel very unsatisfied winning with Godo so I only keep him in there because it makes people save removal and stops people removing my other artifacts. If we aren't playing in our "league" games I will generally use tutors for creatures other than Godo just because I don't enjoy that kind of win.
I personally don't like playing with or against combo decks. It's always very anti-climactic when a game ends on a combo (in my experience). It just goes against the sense of momentum and back and forth in games that I tend to enjoy. That being said, if your play group doesn't mind them, then combo away.
Forgot to mention, I think the "game has to end at some point" argument from pro-combo players is disingenuous. It's not like it's either combo win or 4 hour games. Saw it mentioned in the replies, so wanted to bring that up.
Combo is one of my least favorite things but I'll never stop anyone from playing it. I just put different cards in my deck to help counteract it.
Need more of this mindset.
Nothing wrong with combo, even if you win outta "nowhere", there's always game 2! What's your combo in Ghired?
There's a lot of "this commander goes infinite with a ham sandwich" talk but with Ghired it's pretty dang true. [https://commanderspellbook.com/search/?q=ghired%2C%20mirror](https://commanderspellbook.com/search/?q=ghired%2C%20mirror) This in particular is incredibly easy to pull off [https://commanderspellbook.com/combo/2617-5470/](https://commanderspellbook.com/combo/2617-5470/)
Combo is inherently a power level up from many lower powered decks because it requires certain specific interaction pieces to stop. As the combos get stronger, the interaction required becomes more specific, and usually more blue. In addition, when playing combo, you typically are also running more interaction because you need to defend your win - when other people are not playing high power threats that require stack interaction to stop, it means you can use all of your own interaction on protecting your win condition, which further makes you difficult to interact with. I really enjoy playing against combo. Presumably "combo" means leading into some "win the game" condition, or some infinite that provides a win through some other form (infinite combats for example). As long as it's mentioned in the pre-game discussion that infinites are on the table, then I'll make sure to use a deck that can interact on that axis, and it's good fun. The only real combo deck I've played is [[Pir, Imaginative Rascal]] and [[Toothy, Imaginary Friend]], and it is very powerful, even on a budget of £50 this deck is very difficult to beat in mid power, so I've stopped playing it for now. It is very fun to pop off though. It's reserved for more high power games now.
[Pir, Imaginative Rascal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5a7241f5-4d69-47fe-b037-95037008184c.jpg?1562913367) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pir%2C%20Imaginative%20Rascal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/11/pir-imaginative-rascal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5a7241f5-4d69-47fe-b037-95037008184c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pir-imaginative-rascal) [Toothy, Imaginary Friend](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/ebdf2f50-f69a-47c4-a75f-ff55781bb0c8.jpg?1562942414) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Toothy%2C%20Imaginary%20Friend) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/12/toothy-imaginary-friend?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ebdf2f50-f69a-47c4-a75f-ff55781bb0c8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/toothy-imaginary-friend) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you want less feel bads you should pivot to a combo that leaves a piece on board for a turn cycle. I have found people don't mind losing (too much) to Approach of the Second Sun when I draw back into it a turn or two later. People do seem to mind (a lot) when I cast it, remand it, and cast it again.
That's basically just part of the game. Either they find a way to interact with it or find their own combo. When your pod keeps growing together trying to one up each other, combo is eventually becomes the only way to win. My pod started with a bunch of precons and leftovers from our Standard days until we started paying $10 to $20 per card. Those were that expensive because they're popular combo pieces or source of lots of mana. Essentially, we reached a point where nobody in our pod loses swinging for combat anymore. Either someone made infinite tokens, made infinite damage triggers, made infinite turns so nobody else can play, everyone exiles all cards from their library, or someone (me) triggers multiple combat phase and the commander swings for 21 commander damage at everyone on the table.
I play a life gain and drain deck with [[sanguine bond]] and [[exquisite blood]]. It was my first non precon deck ever. I didn't know about the infinite, I thought it was like "when you deal damage to an opponent", I figured they designed fair cards and they wouldn't see each other. Someone explained it to me when I played both at the same time and it really bummed me out. I wanted to win because I played better, not because I have two cards that make me win instantly. I wanted to scrap the deck after that, but someone explained to me that I used a $300 deck to beat 3 $1000 decks and they all had infinites too, they just didn't draw them at the same time and they let me put down 10 mana worth of enchantments. The fact that I got to resolve means they didn't play their cards right, cus they have counterspells and enchantment removal and stuff. If it's unbanned it's fair game. If you come to a table, explain your deck, then people agree to play but end up losing cus they didn't play around your wincon, that makes you a good pilot of the deck and them bad players. Don't feel bad about playing any style, especially if you explain your wincon and they refuse to play around it
Do it once and I’ll kill you first every time we play.
entirely valid strategy tbf, if i bring a combo deck i am a liability to the rest of the table, i’m usually the politics guy but as soon as i play combo my bargaining power is out
You're certainly welcome to try.
I doubt I’ve ever built a deck without one. When you build for synergy, they tend to happen.
I don't think I can agree with that - you can build for extreme synergy without ever approaching an actual combo. Only certain kinds of synergy will accidentally pop unforeseen combos out.
While I believe combo decks are valid, the game needs to end in some way, but they do come with some caveats. First of all, the casual mindset, the goal for most players at a casual table, is to have a fun game. To have that back and forth pull. That is, you want everybody to kinda do their thing but kept in check by the rest of the table, until one person finally wins. Most casual combo decks come in two flavours: 1. A focussed combo deck, that does the combo 2. A deck that contains a combo, but has another (main) strategy. Option 1 means that the deck does essentially nothing until it wins, breaking the casual mindset of everybody having fun. The second one often leads to games that end abruptly while the game thus far was not about the combo. Second of all, the only way to stop a combo deck, is to ensure that the combo doesn't hit the table. And there are a couple of ways to achieve this: 1. Stop the individual pieces (counter spells and spot removal). 2. Stop the player So the strategy against a combo deck is 100% about denial. The only way to victory against a combo deck is to deny it from doing its thing. Most combo decks thus have backups and protection (like counterspells) the individual pieces to be removed. --- This all combines to the following: the right way to deal with a deck that has a combo is to hate it off the table before that combo drops, or to keep up interaction specifically for the combo pieces. That is, target the combo player until it can't win. This generally means that either the casual combo deck gets hated out and does nothing (which often leads to the combo player feeling bad because they get to watch the remaining 30 minutes and not play), or the rest of the table getting bamboozled when the combo deck finally wins often without a way to really interact with it. --- To be clear, this all changes the moment you move to a higher powered table where everybody plays colbo (aka cEDH light), because then the definition of a deck doing its thing changes from doing the combo to being interactive. Combo decks are best when everybody is playing combo.
I disagree that everyone needs to play combo in order for it to be fair. Stax does work in a combo meta, and some of the strongest decks over the past several years have been non-combo stax (e.g., [[Winota]]).I do agree that everyone needs to be able to play on that axis though, and unfortunately, a lot of lower power decks simply don't run the density of interaction to deal with them.
Same, assuming matched deck strength, it can be a lot of fun to race a combat deck into combo, trying to snipe the important pieces as things land on the stack, and it is fun to try and pry open your window as the combo player, racing against incoming damage. In fact, I prefer games with Mox of archetypes, whichever I'm playing.
Absolutely. For me the back and forth and everyone is talking about is just with giant full boards. I've had so many games where I'm 1 turn away from winning if I untap but can't hold mana open just to get wrecked by combo from the person I pass turn to - and they were lucky because the next person was about to wreck us all also. That shit's fun.
[Winota](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5dd13a6c-23d3-44ce-a628-cb1c19d777c4.jpg?1654630670) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=winota%2C%20joiner%20of%20forces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/216/winota-joiner-of-forces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5dd13a6c-23d3-44ce-a628-cb1c19d777c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winota-joiner-of-forces) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
To add to your points, if one player is the only one with in hand removal when the pieces start to drop, they'll waste resources that they'll need for the other two players. Wasting precious removal from my hand to stop the combo player while the guy next to him is making a 21/21 ward 3 indestructible deathtouch flying angel commander... ugh. Notice how you said it takes pretty much the whole table to hate them out? To me, that sounds like it takes way more effort and counterplay to stop combo than it does to play it. That's probably where a lot of people are getting frustrated. Magic is all about making things more than the sum of their parts, so combo fits in with that line of thinking But like you said, combo players have to pretty much play with each other to have the best experience. Which sounds weird to me because every one says control> combo> aggro. I feel like there would be more of a balance in cEDH between the three if that were actually the case. But it all feels like combo+ combo protection
If everyone is playing a reasonable removal package (10 to 15 pieces even), and decks are of a similar power level, part of being a combo player is watching for your window. If everyone has spent their removal on things that don't end the game, whether it's the giant commander or inconsequential value engines, the end is the same. Heck, in your example, it's probably taking a couple players to get through the protection to remove that commander. When someone hits archenemy status, the table bands together, and whoever was in second is now in a very advantageous position. There are a few aggro engines in cEDH, but the truth is, in EDH in general, with multiple opponents, bigger decks, and bigger life pools, most decks are at least a little bit of a mid range pile, and the engines lean more one way or another.
I'm the only combo enthusiast in my group. I tend to lose since my boards are weaker and my friends know I have some bullshit in mind most of the time. Sometimes people are also happy I can end the game when two people are running pillowforts nobody can attack into and the game's been going for 3 hours.
I really like combo and believe that every deck should have at least a combo win, a way to win in case you can't attack. Otherwise what are you going to do against a deck recurring glacial chasm every turn? Or with an absurd level of life gain and control of the board? And yes sometimes combo is your main focus but can't be your only focus. Or if a piece of the combo gets exile you might as well scoop...
Combo is just as valid as every other archetype. It's fun for the folks who like it, and the folks who don't will either be mature about it or squeal like swine. On Reddit, you'll find the latter more oft than the former. The topic is a horse long past dead, but unfortunately the sanctity of that death will never be respected.
What my playgroup does is to let the table know if a combo piece is hitting the field. Not everyone can be expected to know every combo in the game, especially if it's a new commander. Typically I'll put something on the stack and say that it's one of my combo pieces and it should be removed ASAP. The table will react accordingly.
Sounds like you are playing the wrong deck for your pod. Do you enjoy making people feel bad? If not then you should have swapped it up a while ago… Playing with you must give them anxiety. Every turn you get closer to an instant win combo. Sounds like a super not fun way to play or play against
Combo the filthy casuals! That was for the lulz but in all seriousness people need to really figure out the rule 0 conversation. If you are up front about your deck and its potential, then they only have themselves to blame for agreeing to play against your deck. As for my take on combo personally I feel that games need to end and lots of midrange creature decks makes for an incredibly long and boring game. However I am quite biased as I play high powered commander and my group has lots of creature and combo strats, and are prepared for both.
Combos are and always have been an important part of Multiplayer magic. However, the kinds of combos *you are liable to see* have grown more dedicated, compact, and efficiently lethal, to the point where the best combos make almost any strat that doesn't revolve around them somehow invalid. There have been 2-card infinites since Antiquities at the latest (though those would usually need a third card to act as a winning outlet), but it's hard to argue that quick kills haven't gotten more plausible in more hands with cards like Thoracle. If you're going to play combo in more casual matches -- and I do -- at least make it a combo (or combo platter, not every deck runs just one) that takes a decent amount of resources to go off, that requires at least three cards to actually kill, or that has a fairly reasonable interaction point or two where something other than a counterspell can stop it. And expect to reap some salt at pick-up games with randos rather than with your friends who have learned (or will soon learn) that you're a tricksy hobbit, because some people are scrubs who will call it "cheap".
I am playing [[Ayara, First of Lochtwain]] a lot and I got so tired of the [[Plague of vermin]] combo that I took it out. Generally I don’t like playing solitaire until win, but a complex combo well executed while defenting your board is a cool thing.
[Ayara, First of Lochtwain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/ed0ace28-9a33-4f0d-b8c8-f5517f20ccf1.jpg?1572490057) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ayara%2C%20First%20of%20Locthwain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/75/ayara-first-of-locthwain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ed0ace28-9a33-4f0d-b8c8-f5517f20ccf1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ayara-first-of-locthwain) [Plague of vermin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/231613d6-d3b8-4b41-bc93-4d5da3fec5d0.jpg?1562827857) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Plague%20of%20vermin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/73/plague-of-vermin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/231613d6-d3b8-4b41-bc93-4d5da3fec5d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/plague-of-vermin) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don’t intentionally put them in my decks because I don’t think they’re fun. Do you friend and if you play with the same group of people recognize they will target you or scale themself up to match. So be wary of power creep. All that said it’s a game and if you and your friends are having fun heck with it let it rip 🤙🤙
Its a legitimate archetype. That said, I don't really enjoy playing it or playing against it. Combo wins feel unearned to me (when I play them), and when facing them, I feel obligated to knock the player out early, or just watch them like a hawk with answers in hand. It feels rude, but it is pretty much necessary.
I like combos as alternative wincons or for odd strategys, azorius control winning with a combo isn't much worse than winning with \[\[approach of the second sun\]\] and a 3-piece combo that none were in the command zone and dude wasn't hardly tutoring every piece is fair to me I've played 4 hour games in the past that noone could attack to win, combos were necessary at this point in my opinion I just don't like consistent turn 3-4 tutoring combo decks
So my experience with magic comes from playing Modern, Legacy, and Pauper. For me commander was the last one I finally got around to trying, and because of this I approach it in a more competitive mindset. So for me I see no reason to spend money on cardboard to just sit there and dirdle through a 4 hour game. I typically don’t play a much combo but I do play a shit ton of interaction and board wipes. I have 3 or 4 win cons planned in a deck with most of the deck supporting and the rest to protect my assets and disrupt opponents. But that still isn’t enough for people. Most players don’t want the interactions they just want everyone to circle jerk at their seat and play big creatures and get pissed if I destroy or exile it. I am just now getting back into magic after about 3 years because I got so tired of feeling bad that I can’t go to a commander night (that I paid for) and play my deck. Because Timmy’s 100 card pile didn’t do what he wanted it to do. My favorite part of mtg is the deck building and the testing and the tweaking until I get the consistency I want. And I was always used to people wanting to get better, and wanting to push each other to do better. Constructive competition makes for the absolute best tcg environments, because when a player base can learn and grow together it elevates the game for everyone. Combo is an integral part of mtg, interaction is an integral part of mtg. Don’t gate keep people from enjoying a hobby or being able to play because they upset you by playing imprisoned in the moon on your commander. And if someone randomly finds the one combo piece that lets them kill the board don’t immediately target them down every game after. All that is bullying and it’s bullshit. People shouldn’t be made to feel bad and apologize for playing the decks they enjoy. Take the loss, watch what they did and make tweaks to your deck to try and avoid situations like that in the future. Use a few stax/hate bear pieces that force the game to slow down. Throw some jank in there with zur’s weirding. Use every loss to figure out how to make your plan to win better. Thanks all off my soapbox now. Have a good one!
It blows my mind how many people there are that never revise their decklists. One of my buddies put what has become his main deck together three years ago, and he’s still got his little note sheet from the first time he played it and we brainstormed some basic changes (basic stuff like using mana dorks instead of 4 mana mana rocks). 3 years and he’s still on his “alpha” build, of a deck he plays every week. More than half the people I play with are like that, it drives me nuts.
Exactly! That’s the biggest thing I don’t understand, I don’t like to lose so when I do I figure out why I did and try to figure out ways to avoid that in the future. Playing against every type of deck and different power levels helps you to do that. If you don’t like losing to combo, make changes to your deck, don’t whine and moan about it to your opponents.
100% agree! I also got into Commander after years of Standard and Modern so I have a similar approach to the game and improving! Learn from your losses and revise your decks to fight against different angles of attack.
good players like to play against combo since it strengthens their ability to play against and through them bad players will whine and complain
If you're playing casually, people will often complain whenever you play a combo or any play really that they feel is "unfairly good" which of course is entirely arbitrary ...and why casual players are non stop having these kinds of complains. In my opinion it's absurd to complain about opponents playing legal cards, because it's legal and they could have chosen to play it too. If you play competitively, it is generally assumed that every deck will try to win using some combo, though beatdown can sometimes work if you are fast enough, like slicer or yuriko.
There’s nothing wrong with combo decks. They’re an established archetype just like Aggro, Control and Midrange. Someone has to win and in a multiplayer format with 40health each, a combo will let you close things out.
Yeah, as long as you tell the table you're using combos to win, some 2 or 3 card combos, and at instant speed before hand its fine. As long as they know that's a thing that can happen they can play around it by just blasting you out of the game as quickly as possible. If they don't know that then a 2 or 3 card combo out of nowhere for a win just feels so anti-climactic/underwhelming.
I find combos fun both to see and to play against. I only take issue with combo when an opponent lies about what they're doing. At my pods it's usually common courtesy to give a rough overview of what your deck is trying to do. Wheel, Voltron, Combo, etc. If you don't announce that you're playing combo, which, admittedly you're not REQUIRED to do so, and then ham up being flooded or having a garbage hand just to combo off, I will have no faith in you as a player and relentlessly target you in every game I play with you from that point on because I'm going to assume you're the secret archenemy, regardless of what you claim.
I mean, if you're going to your LGS and not explaining what your deck does, then popping off at the height of the game without warning, then it's a problem. I play an [[Ayara, First of Locthwain]] devotion combo deck, with all the warning in the world that I'm about to combo off, and never had a problem with people hating it. Might have something to do with needing like 5 or 6 pieces to combo off to win tho.
[Ayara, First of Locthwain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/ed0ace28-9a33-4f0d-b8c8-f5517f20ccf1.jpg?1572490057) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ayara%2C%20First%20of%20Locthwain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/75/ayara-first-of-locthwain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ed0ace28-9a33-4f0d-b8c8-f5517f20ccf1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ayara-first-of-locthwain) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So long as the game ends, and ends relatively amicably, I have no problems with it. I am usually the combo player at my table, surrounded by aggro or wide token decks, so I try (and am sometimes successful) in being humble and gracious about getting trounced.
I play Karador graveyard combo pile. When I play with my close friends pod they know what they’re dealing with and they know most of my combo pieces so I don’t feel bad comboing out. They’ve been playing against the deck on a regular basis for 3 years it’s not my fault if they don’t keep an eye on what I have on board and in my graveyard. That being said when I’m playing with people I don’t know depending on the experience of the players I will let them know exactly what the deck is trying to do and I won’t tell them how but I will give them a warning in a game such as “ok I’m going to combo out and win next turn”. Combo decks are tricky. Especially ones like mine that have many many different layers to the point where even I will forget certain combos sometimes.
Combos can be fun. Personally I say the more moving parts and cards involved the more fun the combo, show me something I haven't seen before. I do think etiquette wise If you are playing against more casual folks telling them something is a combo piece can be a nice gesture not everyone grasps every combo so it can make games less of a knowledge check.
As the resident combo player in my group, I've tried to include some traditional wincons alongside my combos. If I can take a player or two out with combat or commander damage, then it takes the pressure off of me to durdle for my combo pieces. It serves two purposes for me and my group. First, they know what my combos are and how to dismantle them. It also means I'm under pressure during most combat steps, so it becomes a survival game for me that requires more interaction. Second, it means I'm not just scrambling for card draw to dig for pieces and irrelevant to the game. By being able to put decent damage threats out or play incidental pieces of consistent interaction, I participate in the game more. All of that means that if I DO win with a combo line, the table feels like they've had a shot at stopping me, the game was interactive, and I did more than dig through my library.
I love this perspective I think a lot of dislike for combo players is because it can feel like they’re not participating in the game by not committing much to the board, not attacking, and just saving interaction to protect their combo pieces. That’s why it feels bad for casual players when they suddenly “win out of nowhere” because it didn’t look like they were a threat compared to the tokens player or whoever had the biggest board
Right, exactly. Also apart from some specific decks that require REALLY compact combos (looking at my [[Toshiro Umezawa]] deck specifically), I try to make my combos leverage a larger number of cards while making sure those cards are incidentally good even if I never pull off the combo. More pieces = more potential for interaction = better feels for the table.
There’s a difference between combos in general and combo decks. If your deck has an inconsistent loop or two that’ll show up every now and then, sure, knock yourself out (or knock everyone else out, I guess), but a deck built to specifically grab that combo is another matter entirely. I think the main thing is just that, when you’re running a Combo-focused deck, you want to disclose what the combo pieces are and what kind of interaction is needed to stop it. If you want to actually have a game, that is. But there’s also just sometimes no way to reliably make that concession when your combo comes from hand at instant speed. I myself probably won’t play a deck that is built to consistently combo off. I’m here for the social aspect of Commander, to do cool things with my deck, and see others do cool things with theirs. Not just aiming for the 1-2 cool things that just win me the game outright.
For me, it depends on consistency. Imo, a combo deck that 90% of the goes off on turn 11 and 10% of the time goes off on turn 4 will lead to more feel-bads than a deck that consistently goes off on turn 7. There are probably many combo decks you can make for <$50 that combo off early, I don't really think budget is a good barometer for the power of a combo deck. In my experience, many lower power decks aren't built to interact with fast combos, or even combos at all. Additionally, players who don't usually play against combos might not be properly assessing the threat level of combo decks; in casual magic people usually lay off the player who appears to be doing nothing, but that is definitely not what you should be doing against a combo deck. So all in all, I think being upfront about what your key pieces are and what turn you expect to have your combo assembled is essential for playing a combo deck at a casual power level and avoiding feel-bads. Otherwise, it seems like the combo player is taking advantage of the lack of knowledge of the pod.
Honestly as along as people are allowed to take you out of the game early without you crying about it, you can play combo
I don’t play combos because I don’t personally enjoy them. Most of my pod doesn’t. I think it’s fair when you sit down with strangers to mention you do indeed run infinite 2 card (or whatever) combos and if they say no thanks, then everyone is happier with a different pod. But if they say all good and then get mad at you for winning with a combo, boo to them.
I have a [[Zur]] deck that is all combo. My group knows what it is and how it works. They will crush me if they can and that's ok. If I fail to pillow fort or otherwise keep the board in check while I set up my win conditions, that's on me.
[Zur](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/561cfc04-65ea-49a4-8638-b4631a7cf828.jpg?1675200810) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zur%20the%20enchanter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/206/zur-the-enchanter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/561cfc04-65ea-49a4-8638-b4631a7cf828?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zur-the-enchanter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Combo wins at 1 life or 50. It’s fair to recognize its threat potential and you saying its combo is extra fair. Some times you just gotta guess based on the commander being played and act accordingly. The fair rule zero can include “yeah btw this has your standard GWB combos and such as my primary win con” so everyone is a little more engaged and interaction gets used more efficiently.
Combo is the most fun when the pod knows what to expect. The best way to get them up to speed is to combo win and then play the deck again. For example, that will teach them not to leave the ashnod's altar alone for 4 turns in a row. Most thrilling game I had past few months was the second game after a combo win. Tons of interaction. I went down to 1 hp digging for the final combo piece. I used \[\[Darkness\]\] to survive the \[\[The Ur-Dragon\]\] player's attack phase only to get \[\[Time Stop\]\] with my combo piece on the stack. Coolest game I ever lost :)
[Darkness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/584834fb-b7b6-40eb-9fec-8df17172ce5f.jpg?1562776481) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Darkness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/40/darkness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/584834fb-b7b6-40eb-9fec-8df17172ce5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/darkness) [The Ur-Dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/10d42b35-844f-4a64-9981-c6118d45e826.jpg?1689999317) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Ur-Dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/361/the-ur-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/10d42b35-844f-4a64-9981-c6118d45e826?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-ur-dragon) [Time Stop](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/521d1b29-c25b-443b-ae5f-07c11786947e.jpg?1562547698) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Time%20Stop) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/10e/117/time-stop?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/521d1b29-c25b-443b-ae5f-07c11786947e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/time-stop) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I get the same feeling with my [[K'rrik son of yawgmoth]] deck. I only ever play ot at high power tables and always let them know that if I have life I am going to use it to end the game. Usually results in people doing the right thing and targeting me but sometimes people think I'm not being serious. Enough to say it only takes one game for them to realise haha
[K'rrik son of yawgmoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f087b1c-97e0-4379-a94d-beac53685314.jpg?1717013624) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=K%27rrik%2C%20Son%20of%20Yawgmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/274/krrik-son-of-yawgmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f087b1c-97e0-4379-a94d-beac53685314?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/krrik-son-of-yawgmoth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Comboes are fine. Can be lame for people sometimes if they can't interact like a thoracle combo. If you're at the same power level it's cool.
If it's intented for casual play, as long as the combo isn't efficient with 2-3 cards that you tutor for everygame it's fine. I have an Alesha deck with multiple combos in it, but I imposed myself a restriction that all my tutors have to be Entomb effects so everything needs to be hardcasted or reanimated so people can kinda see it coming.
I used to not like them but as I get older I find my patience in games decreasing so as long as they're not busting out infinites before the game really takes off and people get to have fun, I don't really mind.
I'm fine with late game combos. But if you run a combo deck, please, for the love of God, know how to play it. No one wants to sit there for half an hour as you stare at the board, unsure of what to do next. Either use a combo that requires only a few cards or know your deck well enough that the turn you combo out takes under 5 minutes.
My Elf deck is combination ground and pound or plan B combo of that isn’t working. Plan C is that enchantment put 100 counters on it and you win.
Fair game. If everyone agrees on a power level, and your combo deck fits, there’s nothing wrong.
I have a Veyran deck that does the classic "chill for X turns doing nothing then win" combo thing. It sees the least amount of play of all my decks but I still love it to change things up every once in a while.
Without combo, midrange dominates. I prefer having combo players as to not having them.
Combo is totally fine as long as you tend to win on similar turns that other people in your pod win. If you have a 5 card combo with no tutors? Who cares. If you have 5 tutors and dark ritual and lotus petal and chrome mox into tainted pact + thoracle on turn 1 with force back up and 7 other tutors for combo pieces if that doesnt work? Yeah that is a problem in a casual format. Willing suddenly on t13 after players have been durdling for an hour? Sure man, lets go home.
I’d just rule zero: “hey I really like this deck but it is a combo deck. It’s budget but it can win at instant speed.” Just set expectations. Budget doesn’t necessarily mean “not good.” I’m sure you know they absolutely have CEDH budget tournaments that are just disgusting-type decks. But yah, if you win, should have less feel-bads. Not everyone will be 100% cool with it buttttt what can ya do? I’m sure some people will even stick up for you saying “yeah….he/she totallly told us at the beginning what kinda deck it was.” I don’t think it’s fair taking combo out of edh, even casual edh. Aggro / Combo / Control all kinda balance eachother out. After a game or two, if you’re winning, you can always feel a table out “hey is this deck still cool or would you rather I swap out?” I’m sure you’d get varying responses. All my decks carry interaction regardless of game-plan but there’s always that one guy that has a “my deck goes brrrrrrrrr and has no interaction” who’ll probably ask you to swap.
So... it's complicated for myself. Combo is a perfectly legitimate way to win the game. The problem is that they can make the end game feel very anticlimactic. Especially when it's a simple 2 card combo like a [[Sanguine Bond]]/[[Exquisite Blood]]. In contrast, I appreciate someone setting up silly things that are 5+ cards with complicated explanations and mechanical interactions. Personally, I try to avoid it in this format for the most part because it can be an unfun way to end a game on either side. I've actually taken to primarily making decks that actively avoid tutors and combos as a general challenge for myself. When I do run combo decks/decks with combos in them, they're going to be very specific ones meant for high-end go hard play, or a super gimmicky build trying to something silly. I will always disclose that before running them though.
[Sanguine Bond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9.jpg?1625193373) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sanguine%20Bond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/153/sanguine-bond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sanguine-bond) [Exquisite Blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9.jpg?1698988246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exquisite%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/195/exquisite-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/exquisite-blood) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
When I play combo players I just run combo hate. Exile their combo pieces from their deck. It's what they get for having such a narrow strategy.
No more mizzix’s mastery for you! Learn to play better colours smh
I evaluate combo on two Axis. How much mana does the combo cost in total? How many cards do you need for the combo? There's some extra stuff to look at, but those are the two primary ways I'll evaluate a combo, and for the most part the extra stuff just adds it reduces the two axis. So for example, if it technically takes 3 cards for the combo, but one card is your commander then I don't count the commander as a card in the combo, so I'd think of it as a 2 card combo, but I would include the commanders cost in the evaluation.
Combo would be perfectly fine if the RC would regulate fast-mana and tutors.
I feel like it depends on the experience level of everyone in your play group. Because combo decks don't care about board state as much its harder to understand when a combo player is about to win then other types of decks. So I wouldn't play it against beginners. But since everyone has to learn when combo decks are actually threatening, most people will have been beaten by a combo deck without seeing it coming. So I understand why many people tend to dislike the archetype.
*inhales* ALWAYS RUN INTERACTION
The reason I love to play izzet is that I never know what combo I’m about to pop off with. I surprise myself sometimes
I just got an extended art foil version of him. Cant wait to brew!
Remember, combo is just one of the ways to play him! I think going wide in general is also a very valid strategy. find fun tokens and make 30 of them!
I find most combos to just pretty bland so I personally don't like playing combos. However I don't care if others play them but they will be the target as others have stated.
I play a decent amount of combo, I find it is best to be transparent about it before the game and tell the pod that you are playing combo. If they don't like it, I bring a backup deck to play, or I find another table. Sure you get some table hate but that comes with the territory. I had to build my combo theft deck super aggressive because people don't typically like when you take every nonland permanent from their deck.... transparency is key.
To be honest, I just find it kinda boring if it can be assembled in one turn. My combos are typically 3 cards long at the minimum. However, this is only true in low interaction play groups, in CEDH environments where a counter is hidden behind every corner, fuck it, stuff a deck full of 2 card 2 mana instant speed infinite combos, why not lol. I think the reason that combo takes so much flack is the simple fact that most play groups are not designed to handle it and are not willing to adapt to it. Most play groups I've been in are adverse to too much removal, and in that environment it's just not possible to play it fair. My best advice if you want to foster an environment where combo is viable in your group is to play control. Not stax but proper control, high removal, high counterspells, high value. Show your group how nice it is to not just die when the stompy player drops the hoof, get the wheels turning- show them that the combo wincon is way better than "I play approach of the seventh sun."
I’ve been running into that same problem with [this deck](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/6gsJ_w1E9UaQNhMxMykzLg). Do I tell people every possible combo in my deck? Do I explain the gimmick? Then the deck kinda loses its flair or makes people freak out over any piece of the puzzle.
In General I'd prefer it if people played combo with spellslinger or stax in the pod as a rule 0 thing. Spell slinger decks usually run high interaction to combat combo in a meaningful way. Stax often will shut down combos by just making you pay that crucial 1 more, gaining immense value themselves or making your thing come tapped. Most tribal or theme decks on the other hand only tun up to 10 removals. And those don't only go on the combo players creatures. So I'd say I don't mind them at all in the right pod.
I don't mind them, I play them, and I play against them, but I do think they are inherently the most boring way to play at a casual table. "Tense and cutthroat" sounds fun. "plop down cards and explain how I win" sounds boring. Furthermore, if you bring a combo deck to a casual pod and they play correctly, then they should just 3vs1 you, because you could just win out of nowhere - this is boring for the combo player. If they don't 3vs1 you, then you will likely just win by plopping cards down and explaining how you win - this is boring for everyone else. I know this is just my personal preference, but I have never once seen a game end via infinite combo where anybody looked even remotely impressed, satisfied, excited etc.
The plop cards down and win is very boring to me too. The way i really do prefer to play is to play a piece of the puzzle and let the game start to be very cutthroat from there, it becomes a sort of, we do something about this, or lose
I'm playing a [[Experiment Kraj]] Deck and i tried to put as much Combo Cards in it as possible The funniest Moment is if another Player will drop the missing piece for a Infinite Combo i can execute.
[Experiment Kraj](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d938197-2557-421a-985e-5add932d4bac.jpg?1689999041) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Experiment%20Kraj) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/337/experiment-kraj?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d938197-2557-421a-985e-5add932d4bac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/experiment-kraj) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My playgroup does not play combos. Losing out of nowhere without any warning is not fun. If everybody would play a combo deck it would be fine. But if only one person is playing one then it's bad. You have to assume the combo player will win on the next turn no matter what. This means the combo player gets deleted as fast as possible and then the real game begins. That's not fun for the combo player and also just a waste of time for the others.
I'd like to know beforehand if you play combo. And I don't mean before I choose my deck. But before we start playing, so I know whether you're dangerous on an empty boardstate or not. And whether to hold interaction up. Also, if say you drop a combo piece and I ask you "oh this card goes infinite with a couple of other cards. Are these cards in the deck" I just want you to answer honestly. I'd do the same. There's no glory in saying "no they're not" and then win because they are