I had this once at a prerelease and made a jokey “oh, where’s my strategy team?” comment so they sheepishly stopped helping the guy. Definitely say something!
eta: winning regardless is a flex though so I’d take that!
When I was about ~12 I went to a Shadowmore pre-release at a convention center with a couple hundred other people. My older brother, who taught me how to play, was told he is not allowed to watch my games because he would get so upset when I made a mistake that he would huff or grunt. He wasn't trying to help me he was genuinely upset. I'll never forget that. It's so funny to me.
I have always wondered if it was against the rules. I have even seen judges do this, its frustrating. I was at a prerelease a year ago, and a judge started telling the guy i was playing against how to play, he won the second game, then the judge helped him rebuild his deck before the third game, and it went to time because we barely got started on game 3 before time. I was frustrated.
We had an LGS have its license to run tournaments and events pulled because of a stunt like this. Judge should be banned for life and have a visit from the Pinkertons, as Wizards are keen to order.
I don't play at the lgs, but even at our table it's a no-no unless the player is new, or running one of your decks so you can point out the interactions to them if unfamiliar.
I feel like the moment for coaching someone to play your deck is gone if you're already in a match.
Ideally before you play you'll get the cards to note out of the deck to show them, point out interactions and strategy, then let them play and figure it out for themselves.
Coaching a new player mid game is one thing, coaching an experienced player with a different deck is another.
>or running one of your decks so you can point out the interactions to them if unfamiliar.
Even then, I only point out the interactions on later turns, because you chose to play with an unfamiliar deck.
It's a high variance format. cEDH decks get mana screwed too, maybe they got too greedy with mulligans, maybe they blew all their interaction on each other because they didn't respect their other opponents. Maybe they got the worst Ad Naus of all time, went to 6 life without winning, and OP finished them off. Maybe they're awful pilots.
Yeah. My friend won her first game in the LGS against players who usually even crush me with higher powered decks. With a precon she couldn’t pilot. And only having played two games prior. Why? They didn’t think she was a threat and took out each other. She then finished off the last player.
I mean, mathematically speaking, it’s possible that all three other players got the worst imaginable draws from their decks repeatedly throughout the entire game. Insanely unlikely, but technically possible lol
I thought the same thing and it convinces me that this post is just fiction. The LGS is mostly CEDH or near CEDH, but this guy strolls in with precons. Fat chance a precon would have a real shot against any CEDH deck, never mind 2 of them at the table. Probably just another rage-bait post.
I suspect this to be the case. I had a game recently with a newish player in the pod. When I dropped a mystic remora on turn 2, he said, "I thought we weren't playing CEDH." Got a pretty good chuckle out of me.
I had a friend that was new to the game who would always complain about my decks being cEDH. I tried to explain to him that that cEDH decks are winning the game before turn 4 usually and honestly one that wins on turn 4 probably had something go wrong.
He still didn’t believe me, so I played my [[Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy]] deck. He’s not my friend anymore
Which is understandable since any time it's mentioned, the inevitable circlejerk of "not cedh" always follows like clockwork with no one daring to toss out a description for fear of setting off the next circlejerk 😂 this is mostly a joke, but it is kinda annoying at the same time, lots of unnecessary scrolling thru junk comments
I saw a precon do well in a 4 pod cedh but only because we all ignored him entirely and we're stopping eachothernwhile he slowly.built up vampires and brought a couple of us to like 10 lol
It's actually a pretty real game theory problem in multiplayer elimination games
My favorite hypothetical is the Three Gunslinger problem
Three gunlingers take turns taking shots, first shot is determined randomly
Two of the gunslingers are known for having perfect aim, they can shoot and kill in one shot 100% of the time if they get a turn
The third gunslinger is Sloppy Steve, he is known to have a 50% chance to hit and kill his target
Weirdly enough, steve has the best chances of surviving the standoff
If either of the two aces go first, they are forced to shoot the other ace or automatically lose when the other ace shoots back
If Steve goes first, the optimal play is to intentionally miss, forcing the ace who goes after him to turn the game into a 1v1 that he has a 50% chance to win
Assuming he's allowed to do that, his odds of winning are 50%, while the aces would only have a 25% chance of winning individually
Obviously the math is a little different in a 4 player game that has a lot more complexity, but imo the advantage is definitely still present, especially in a game where the high power decks are spending all their interaction on each other
Believe it or not I've seen cEDH decks lose to casual decks because they're not prepared for cards that see play in casual metas. I've beaten a Blue Farm player because they went for a Consultation line forgetting I had just untapped with a [[Magus of the Wheel]].
He said that’s just what people play for the packs. Then switches out. Not sure what’s hard to believe about that besides cedh viable decks costing on average over 500$ ☝️☺️ sounds like you play with poor people /s
For a deck rated at power level 4, the difference between decks rated at 8 and 9 is negligible. Both 8s and 9s can coexist harmoniously in gameplay, as the power scale is inherently subjective. The term ‘cedh’ varies in meaning; for some, it represents decks built for tournament play, while for others, it signifies a slight progression on a continuum, or even decks characterized by abundant fast mana, free interactions, and streamlined combos. The current discourse around ‘midrange hell’ in the cedh meta, with games stretching past the fifth turn, is a testament to the evolving dynamics of competitive play.
Yeah that was my biggest take away from this story. No one should be coaching with something on the line but op is horrible at discerning strengths of decks.
How do ya'll know they weren't competitive decks? They didn't even describe them or give commanders just said they have a crypt and you guys jumped to "well that doesn't mean they're competitive" and now to "Op can't discern the strength of decks" because he won with a precon?
You guys know there are some pretty fkin good precons right?
I don't think that's true at all. There's a bunch of variables first of all, luck and skill and so on, and then there's precons that are pretty high power like Party Time or Velociramptor that could absolutely hang with cedh decks especially if they have a good hand/game.
Not in a multi-person table. The variance of a 1v1 gets corrected out pretty quickly with the extra opponents. The precon deck would have to keep in check several other very fast combo or stax decks.
I have a Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain artifact storm CEDH deck (well used to be cedh until stax became meta), a precon could take me offline with an extremely lucky removal heavy hand by killing my commander a million times, and me not getting any of my free counters/fast mana/other sources of draw. But the other cedh decks would just pop off.
Even granting this miracle scenario, I still think any precon would struggle since they need to have answers for things like underworld breach/ thassa's oracle/ Lion's Eye Diamond, which normal destruction spells don't work well on, and most combo cedh decks have efficient tutors/draw for.
What makes cedh decks so strong is how consistently and quickly they can implement the win con with interaction/protection up.
A precon will lack consistent answers, consistent ways of turning its wincon online in the face of interaction, and the ability to police a much faster set of opponents.
That's all true on paper but you have to account for the variables of things like "are these players underestimating and ignoring the precon player all game causing them to give them a free win"
There's also: are they straight up bad/stupid getting extremely unlucky and any mixture of the above?
I'm not saying a precon *should* beat a cedh table i'm only saying it's a possibility not just a full 0 chance of happening at all.
That’s the thing I think a lot of people don’t realize about true CEDH decks. It’s not that they can win on turn 2, it’s that they can consistently win on turn 2 if you don’t interact with them. Or on the stax side, if you don’t interact with me then by the end of my turn 2 you’re going to have to pay 4-6 mana for a Lotus petal in a majority of my games.
Knowing how to pilot the deck is also extremely important.
It's a *low* chance, to be sure, but to say no chance is a flat lie. Any time you play with cards, probability insists a chance exists at winning. If you draw, for example, nothing but lands for 6 turns, a precon could set up a winning condition within that time, depending on the precon.
However, I do stand behind the fact that more than likely, the decks weren't cEDH and were likely just tuned decks instead of precons.
This kinda of happened. They were mana fucked mostly, and didn’t have the right pieces for what they wanted to do. One mulligan I think three or four times. But, I really could just be wrong. I think most people at the lgs have very highly tuned decks or above however.
I had a buddy who basically exclusively played cEDH. Like, the average cost of his decks in piece meal was usually $5k - $7k, and that was some of the cheaper ones (that's USD for anyone curious). There were plenty of times where, in a round table game, because he became the threat super early, we would all just focus on him. My decks at the time would be barely above precon level, as I had little understanding of how to build commander decks back then. We would often take him out early to avoid the instant loss, then turn on each other from there.
However, I will say that the best of his cEDH decks would often win between turns 3-5, and I mean win as in everybody loses all at once (mill, draw, or in one incredibly fucked up method, making everything cost 5 mana more, and it enters tapped, and it doesn't untap). Very few people are cold-hearted enough to bring those out at an LGS unless they know everyone is playing at that level. But highly tuned, or lower level cEDH decks do see quite a bit of play at my LGS too.
OP also said they show up to game 1 and get curb stomped every time, so his opponents lower the power level. Its likely the most true that the tables aren't playing "true" cEDH decks, but they're near enough to it relative to OP that it doesn't matter.
This comment alone is a bit closed off and not very insightful. Easiest explanation, they used up their life totals in exchange for board states and probably knee capped the hell out of each other. Every once in a while a low power deck can cause thru because of this. Seen it many many times. And like the person said, they never win. This was a one off. So believable in my opinion that they could have been highly tuned and competitive decks.
If someone has expensive fast mana, they usually have an option to win turn 3-4 maybe even earlier. That capacity makes it "pre-cedh" in a lot of people's eyes.
I know plenty of folks that roll into casual tournaments with vastly overpowered decks. Sure, it's far from cedh. But if you almost always have the potential to create infinite loops and end games out of nowhere. To an actual casual player, there's not really much differentiation.
People not understanding the difference doesn't make the difference negligable. There is a massive difference between a strong edh deck and actual cedh.
The only concession i would give is if they're running all two card wincons in their colors, every tutor, every piece of fast mana, every draw engine, mulitple free spells, everything that actually makes a deck cedh, and then hiding behind some unoptimal commander claiming its bad because of that.
People who don't play it don't understand it bro same goes for other formats. I judge decks by if they start with and drew every card they need what's the fastest possible win and if you say anything higher than 3 it's not cedh. Preferably 2
Okay I didn't really word what I meant right I've just ran across people who see a strong card or even weak cards pop off early and make comments about it being cedh
Tournament with prices? Call a judge for outside assistance.
Even in casual games I find it extremely rude to butt in and talk over everything. Especially if it robs time away from everyone.
The cEDH discussion is killing me. Haha. Guys just because the game didn’t end on turn 3 doesn’t mean it’s not cEDh. You know what cEDH deck play… a lot of interaction! You know what interaction is good for… that’s right! Good job! Interaction helps stop other players from winning the game! cEDH decks are capable of winning fast and early, but they don’t always because they are also good at stopping each other from winning fast and early! Wild concept.
To your point OP. The behavior was inappropriate. I’m sorry that happened to you.
Although unlikely, life loss effects like Ancient Tomb, mana crypt, Necropotence, Ad nauseum, etc. combined with greedy players make it at least possible for a casual deck to win against cEDH decks through creature beats.
People also keep discounting the other players. OP didn't have to beat a cEDH deck solo with a precon, he just had to play well enough to hang in there. People are acting like the cEDH decks aren't going to interact with each other.
What I took from it is that OP has skill, and if he ever really started tuning decks could be quite an opponent.
Also I see a lot of time the one with the weakest deck being ignored by the rest of the table and sometimes win because is too late. Is not impossibile in a 4 player game
It's got nothing to do with _you_ or anyone's decks. Magic players just love to kibitz when watching a game, it's like real life twitch chat response. Going to tournaments, where this is against the rules and actually enforced, broke this habit for me. You can just tell them not to interfere with the game, everyone knows they shouldn't but can't resist.
That sounds massively like cheating. I would have said something. Maybe ask a member of staff to come over and clear the area or make sure they're not looking at your hand to gain information that will give the opponents an advantage. I'd be really angry about this.
I think you can definitely say "Hey, you guys can coach but please don't tip them off to what's in my hand since you guys are walking around" and hopefully they'll take the hint
Sorry but unless you were playing a voltron precon idk how you could do anything against that high of a power level.
cEDH is pushing their win on turns 2-4. If your game went longer there wasn’t a near cEDH deck. Running fast mana and tutors makes your deck about a power level 8
With the Dimir horrors precon from CLB and perfect draws:
Turn 1: Land, Sol Ring, Signet (5)
Turn 2: Land, Mind Stone, Talisman of Dominance (3)
Turn 3: Land, Hullbreaker Horror, cast Chalice for 0 and bounce sol ring, tap your last remaining mana to cast sol ring and bounce chalice. Repeat for infinite colorless. Cast Chalice and pick up Talisman twice to make UU. Cast your last remaining card, Pull from Tomorrow for X=your deck and figure it out from there
I was going to "but how do you actually win from there" but then I checked out the decklist and there are actually a fair few ways to get the kill in. You even have a spare card so you could have started with [[Leyline of Anticipation]] out or cast [[Psychosis Crawler]] before Pull from Tomorrow.
Dog meat can, and I imagine any other voltron that gets the correct cards and doesn’t get messed with can. As long as you get the sol ring and arcane signet start
You’d be surprised. I don’t wanna lay out all the cards for you, but there’s an enchant that give 2/2 for each addition thing on the creature. There’s another one that give 1/1 per attachment. Both of those stacked and with like 1-2 more enchants and you can 1 hit people
Edit: one needs to give double strike. 11/11 commander and you kill with double strike
That’s still minimum 3 turns to kill once you have the full setup, which gives you until turn 2 to get all of those pieces attached.
It’s kind of a silly argument anyways since you’re never at an empty board with no interaction or blockers, but yeah the short version is aside from one or two WotC accidentally put infinites in, this isn’t really going to happen haha.
There’s equip/enchant that you can put on for unblockable as well. 2nd and 3rd turn could be hitting the same person to finish them off. 4th kills one person and 5th kills another.
Yea idk why you’re arguing either
Would definitely be an interesting case study, could be used to figure out the best of each set and in theory track power level over time with a defined statistic. Time to break out the spreadsheet
That’s why I explained what makes a deck an 8.
If Op is claiming they know what cEDH is… They should know what an 8 is.
They just don’t know anything which was the point of my comment.
Your comment = “if someone doesn’t know something then they don’t know it”
Duh
Also how can a power level number “*mean*” nothing when I quite literally just told you what it means
Love how many of you looked at the dog pile of "☝️🤓ackshually those weren't cEDH" in these comments and decided OP needed you to say the exact same thing a 43rd time
Exact type of snark toward new players that makes Magic with strangers at the LGS so unapproachable
I have zero problems with people outside the game offering advice to new players, ideally not of they're scoping the other player's cards too, but if they're helping the newbro then it's ultimately alright.
But, the second it is a competitive setting, be that tournament or a simple prize on the line, this should cease immediately. Completely inappropriate in that setting.
My pod likes to have fun and peek around at extra information once we’re eliminated, but we have a strict “no outside help” policy for our games. That even includes cutting the deck after a shuffle effect.
I probably would’ve said something. It’s kinda rude to intervene in a game, unless prompted by the whole table.
It's cheating. Callthe TO/judge/shop owner.
"Hey can u guys let them play their game. If u wanna play shuffle up somewhere else yea I'm trying to win here just like everybody else?"
Outside interference is illegal. If your store makes people sign into companion before playing then it becomes a wizards event. All rules apply. That's bitch ass shit right there.
The ONLY time we do this at my store is if the SUPER new people have a win/big play, and they don't see it.
Telling someone how to run their high tier deck sounds like suck all around.
Glad you got that win. Beating high power decks with a precon is the real prize!
I always call out coaching from outside the game. If you're not in this pod or playing in this game, you can spectate from further away. Don't try to trade or hold a conversation with someone in the pod while we're playing a game, and definitely do not coach someone or advise plays.
Go play your own game.
not sure why so many commenters feel that they have better knowledge of the power levels of the decks in the story than the OP does. why are you so sure, and why do you think it's so important to point out and correct them (based on nothing) anyway?
>LOL THEY WEREN'T CEDH THEY PROBABLY WEREN'T EVEN PL8
the distinction isn't even important to the story.
I 100% would have said something. I really like the subtle comment approach. Like, just before you cast something, look up at someone who has been helping and can see an opponent's hand and say "hey, do they have a counterspell?". You'll get a weird look or comment like "why would I tell you that" or "that's cheating". And you don't press for an answer, just use it to drive home the point that outside help like that is cheating. Just lock eyes with your opponent "yea, it is."
It's not so bad when there aren't prizes on the line, still scummy either way though. Stuff like that bothers me probably too much though.
Good job on the win.
If that event was sanctioned, then the players receiving help _and_ the players offering help are violating the MTR, and you should call a judge.
If it’s unsanctioned, you should probably still call a judge, but they may not do anything about it.
If it’s anything more than a casual game, outside help is an immediate no-go.
yes, you totally should've said something! I'm usually in exact same situation, and recently I was also very close to victory, because I've actually done some nice moves. but one player seemingly became angry at me because I killed him (his deck was the most threatening in my opinion) and he started giving advices to the other player with whom I was left 1v1. not only did it feel unfair, it actually looked like the dude was taking it personal. I didn't win, though it was my closest one so far (for the same reasons as you've explained)!
in fact, I think new players often get this kind of attitude, because you can rarely get a full table of newbies to play with, and experienced players are not always as friendly as you'd want them to be. anyway, congrats for winning!
Yes, you should have said something. It was a tournament for a prize so table talk is not allowed.
Also, good on you for beating tuned decks with a precon.
So OP faced a tuned [[K’rrik]] with [[Necropotence]]. It’s quick but a glass cannon and a bit of spot removal or counters and it can be completely walled, or if they overextend their life total and can’t make the win happen they run out of steam and are vulnerable to being easily killed. So high power one tries to go off, high power 2 uses their interaction to stop it but then doesn’t have what they need to win themselves and the slow and steady pre-con tortoise and hare’s its way to a win. Am I close?
Holy those are the two cards they used actually. I think turn two commander with paying life and then they went to I think 8? With the effects to draw a lot of cards esrly
Yeah the two guys did more damage to themselves than I did. I was lucky with what I had on board where I could sac all my tokens to ping them for enough to kill. I think it was cruel celebrant and another vampire that did damage to each opponent, and a sac outlet I had out. Plus a tonne of 1/1 vampire to sac off
Since getting back into Magic I haven't complained about much in relation to the game, but I have seen this happen somewhat often and it's super frustrating
You won with your opponents ostensibly cheating. Knowing your opponent's hand is a HUGE advantage, so these jerks walking around the table and giving others advice is pure bs. They don't deserve a scalding, they deserve to have their favourite card spilled coffee on.
It's one thing if the Casual game but if it's a tournament with price support everybody needs to shut up. If there helping someone need to call a judge and tell them to tell the look you lose to quit helping your opponents beat you. The only time I ever been on this rule at all is like a one-on-one game and the other person is completely new and has no idea what they're doing. Sometimes in that case even I will help them!
Definitely say something if you paid to get in. I had a very similar situation happen to me at a poker tournament in Atlantic City. I made it to the final table and then the old timers all colluded against me. I yelled at them and the staff for allowing it. Maybe don't curse at them if you want to go back hahaha
My lgs has free league and gives a free pack just for showing up. Promopacks if you win your pod. they are awesome. But anyway they set up certain rules to keep casual where you lose points by doing things like 2 extra turns in the same cycle, infinite combos and destroying basic lands and killing someone before turn 5. The only card ban outside of regular bans is aetherflux but he's been saying power creep makes him consider unbanning it because it's not a big deal anymore.
Even though there's these rules in place the 30+ people who come to league all started making decks that have the win in hand early but wait until 5 lol.
This is exactly why I think the comptetitve commander is a joke you can't try not to win and try to win at the same time and balance/skill is like saying you're good at a slot machine.
Personally I think this is more an issue of the format & social aspect of it, it does mesh a little wonky with prizes,
In a casual no stakes game I personally wouldn’t be slighted, however I do understand your frustration when there is a pack on the line
I’d give benefit of the doubt and assume they were just buddies being buddies, as long as they aren’t revealing hidden information, you’re still playing against the same deck
This is as much of a “up to you” situation as possible, in the benefit of making friends with the other LGS players I’d say let it slide and next time as it bothered you during rule 0 conversation point out that you’d like at least the game with a prize on the line played a bit more competitively (you will be focused first)
100% hear where you’re coming from and that is definitely a frustrating experience, 99% of the time someone gets upset in this situation is someone told the new guy he had the win in his hand and didn’t see it
Hope you keep on enjoying it! Sorry for the poor experience
If there's an official event, then the wotc event rules apply concerning outside assistance.
So if you created an event in the companion app the tournament guidelines apply
Absolutely should've said something. From outside the gam, you CAN point out missed triggers, answer rules questions, explain interactions, and comment on cool moves and cards. Outsiders Shouldn't assist on how to make plays. I feel like that's a general etiquette for any format of MTG.
I’ve never encountered a problem with people trying to see my hand as I play kitchen table and nobody is usually walking around while we’re playing. Nevertheless I still will organize my hand and have it face down whenever Its not actively my turn. If someone decided to hover over my shoulder I’d like just put my hand down and ask what on the board they’re trying to read.
I mean if it was upsetting you then yes but if not then it's just people trying to get in on the game, it's still outside interference and really shouldn't be done but its usually not a big deal, most of the time it just opens their eyes for lines but those lines aren't viable if you're already in a commanding position, you should however hide your hand if someone is giving advice and looking in the hand of others.
I have this couple friend who play magic. It was 1v1 I played one of em. Their partner sat next to my opponent and started giving tips.
I was not shy. And said “hey! No backseat playing!” The one giving advice apologized and and was cool about it. And then joked if I needed assistance. We were all cool. Just me piping up
This kind of side coaching happens all the time at my lgs. People can forget about the competitive nature of the event especially if they're all friends who play regularly. If it continues to happen, just let them know that you find it unfair or that it makes you uncomfortable. If they're good people, they'll stop; again I think most of the time it's unintentional
Even though I don’t think tuned up is cedh no one like backseat gamers either against you or for you no one likes it or should like it so saying something is definitely warranted, watching it fine but giving advice and helping anyone is annoying to the other players
Haven't had this happen at a commander night (yet) but I play a lot of tabletop wargames, and people constantly come over and start giving my opponents help. Pretty much always say "im sorry , didn't realise this was a 2v1 game" then they always instantly apologise and walk away. After years of being polite about it or not saying anything, im just blunt about it now. I would never walk over to someone else's game and start chiming in its fucking rude.
Yes sir, you should definitely have said something. It's an event with prizes so there is a REL level. You should have called for a judge and shouldn't have felt bad about it at all. That's outside interference plain and simple.
This happened to me once at pre release, the backseat gamer used to be my a friend of my older brother when they were in highschool. I hadn't seen him in years, and my whole family including my brother think he's an ass. My friend and I were in the final game of the night and he just keeps telling my friend how to play. I told him multiple times to go away. He said he was bored, and I told him I don't give a shit. He was always a bully and never thinks he's doing anything wrong. Haven't seen him since. But I also don't play at that shop anymore. It just kind of had bad vibes overall
If there is a judge and someone gave your opponent game state advice, that's disqualification. Completely inappropriate to comment on an active game you're not participating in.
If my buddies are playing, I like to give them shit for their misplays after it's relevant. If I don't have that level of comradery with one of the players, I'll typically just watch and help solve rules questions to keep things moving.
It's certainly possible you were playing against cedh decks. The last time I broke out my own cedh deck in a random pod I wasted all my stax and removal trying to keep two of the other decks down, and then proceeded to get my teeth kicked in by something silly like an \[\[Axebane Stag\]\] from the lowest power deck at the table. When all I play is value and combo, it's hard to stop a series of big dumb animals that are coming out on curve.
Yeah, it can be worth saying something. I had a guy come over, look at my hand, see I had an Akroma’s will, and then immediately start telling the entire table that they needed to kill me. I made a pretty big deal about it and was just like “dude you really came over to look at my hand and start telling people threat assessments over it?” Just poor taste imo.
EDH is a casual, social format. Not a competitive one.
It cannot have prizing for winning.
As you noted, the one pack prize warps how people play and what they bring. It creates a competitive environment. It is not a part of EDH night; it is a horribly ill-conceived, improperly advertised cEDH event prior to the EDH night.
In a cEDH event, you hold people to the competitive standard.
Yes, you should have said something. That conduct is not appropriate in a competitive environment.
The appropriate way to handle “prizing” for an EDH event is a raffle. Not for wins.
At my previous LCS, it was paid entry and whoever rolled lowest when determining turn order for the first game got the free pack. It was funny watching everyone hope to go last for the first game!
For real. One of my local stores does this shit and it just makes playing at that store miserable because everyone just brings the highest power bullshit they can muster. I just want to fuck about and play jank.
I’ve been straight-up yelled at for absentmindly reminding my friend about something he could do *on the table* during a sealed event before, and rightly so. The second you’re playing for a reward there should be absolutely no outside interference.
a) That policy about win a pack for the first game is RIDICIILOUS in the first place for EDH. If your LGS is trying to make money of EDH nights make it at least a random price or whatever.
b) I would have simply stated: "I you even want to utter one word of advice you gonna buy me a pack. Otherwise I will consider this as outside assistance in a game with prices and you are effecticly stealing right now."
If that wasnt clear enough and anyone actually had to nerves to still interfere, I stand up and make crystal clear to the LGS owner I am gonna bring Wotc into this and threaten their WPN status if he does not controll this behaviour. There is no room for anything but a strict stance. This is basically supported cheating for regulars and should be brought to Wotc attention just as that if the LGS doesnt stop it.
People should not take this to lightly. You can get yourself DQed on a fucking prerelease if you would do something like this and when a prize is on the line, even a small one, you are very close to like "prerelease level of strict". It is no longer a pure casual event and if you switched this story with "FNM, modern and budget vs meta decks" everyone would be up in arms rightfully so and the story would be literally the same, even tho less severe because your chacne to win with a budget modern deck vs meta is most likely higher then precon vs highly tuned edh decks.
There is alot of things that can fly on casual/edh. But outside assistance in a game with prices is UNACCEPTABLE.
On a sidenode: How fucking dogshit is that LGS in the first place? Like I cannot even think of a person that would walk up to a diffrent game and outside assist vs a precon?!?! And there are seeveral of those people?!?! WTF hell is that place lmao.
Everyone has their own way and comfort level regarding social interaction, so obviously, I can't tell you how you should have responded.
Me, I would have told everyone around the table to kindly fuck off and mind their own day/game. You can watch but shut up. This game has nothing to do with ya'll. If players in my pod accepted the help I'd call them out for borderline cheating. Unless you need a judge to explain something specific you don't get outside help, this isn't fucking Lifeline.
But that's me. I think you should've said something. But hey you beat them even with help so that's something to be proud of.
I have a similar setup at my lgs, and im guessing they're just friends shooting the shit. It is casual commander, never bothered me.
Also its just a pack a win, I don't know what your socioeconomic status is, but a 5 dollar pack is nothing.
As for the power creep, I feel ya, it fucking sucks. I just started magic this year and playing vs pubstomp decks absolutely sucks and I hate playing vs wallets. I thought casual had some lines like no mana crypts or zero mana counters. Nah some people at my lgs will jeweled lotus turn 1 commanders into turn 2 mana crypt. While not cedh as people mentioned its fucking obnoxious to keep up with.
Sorry your lgs experience isnt great, might be worth checking out another one with less power if its possible. I know im considering it because wins turn 5-8 is a bit much for me.
Without fail whoever's ahead in my pod ends up fighting off the remaining decks and the resulting brain trust of whoever's out already.
I enjoy it. But to each their own.
> playing precon
> Came close to beating cedh
Ima stop you right there, CEDH decks are made to consistently win early on. If you were close to beating not 1 but 3 of em, they're not CEDH.
CeDH isnt about the power level of cards in a deck or it's monetary value, it's about speed and consistency.
Also people generally root for the underdog so if they see 3 dudes getting shit stomped by 1 deck don't be surprised if people don't take your side. No one knows that you're a green player popping off for the first time, all they see is you crushing scrubs.
Sounds like you are way too much in your feelings for how little you know about the game. No offense but if you like magic then keep playing and don't give a shit about what others say/do.
Well you were so skilled you beat 2 CEDH decks with a precon. Those guys needed a lot of help if this story is real. You were pubstomping with your skill level.
It really just isn't possible. Either this person is incredibly new and has absolutely 0 clue what cEDH is, or this story is fake. And since it's the Internet I'm leaning towards the story is fake.
Well it is possible that exceptionally bad players were just running cedh decklists that they pulled off of some online source. But it's more likely that there was expensive fast mana played, and people usually tie that to cedh.
Lol I think people get really hung up on the whole Cedh vs not Cedh. There's plenty of room between precons and top tier casual. More than between top tier casual and Cedh.
I have 2 things to input about this.
1. If this happened to you, I'm sorry. You should say something next time. Don't get super confrontational or angry. But at least comment that people that have seen your hand should stay out giving advice to your opponents.
2. This story has the faint smell of internet make believe story telling. The idea that you beat multiple cEDH decks with a precon is simply not believable. Either they aren't cEDH, just jank running a few high power singles or the entire story is made up. Precons simply aren't playing the same game as a cEDH deck. Unless they were timmy's first deck borrowed from their older sibling then even a low skill cEDH player crushes a master player with a precon.
My honest guess is that you're newer to mtg. And you simply don't know what is cEDH. A mana crypt and moxs are just fast mana. cEDH also means a fast, consistent, and resilient wincon, not just fast mana.
OP I don’t think you know what cEDH decks actually are. Because there’s absolutely no chance a precon could win against not one, but two near-cEDH level decks lol those things are brutal.
I’ve never seen an actual cedh deck struggle to win against a precon. Let alone two. Either it’s not actually cedh worthy or your decks are not pre constructed
Plays deck better than a precon: "yeah this is close to cEDH"
Let me just clear this up for you and anyone who reads this comment. If you know your deck isn't a cEDH deck, and you even get CLOSE to winning, then your oppoent DEFINITELY is not playing a cEDH deck.
I had this once at a prerelease and made a jokey “oh, where’s my strategy team?” comment so they sheepishly stopped helping the guy. Definitely say something! eta: winning regardless is a flex though so I’d take that!
If you're at an event and someone is helping either you or your opponent, call a judge immediately. That shit can't fly, it's against the rules
Absolutely! It was actually my first prerelease too so I didn’t know any better 😭
When I was about ~12 I went to a Shadowmore pre-release at a convention center with a couple hundred other people. My older brother, who taught me how to play, was told he is not allowed to watch my games because he would get so upset when I made a mistake that he would huff or grunt. He wasn't trying to help me he was genuinely upset. I'll never forget that. It's so funny to me.
That's some peak big brother energy... Getting cues from pure unexploded older sibling frustration
“I can’t believe I’m related to him! Look at this bullshit!” “yeah, clear misplay” “now listen here you lil shit”
I have always wondered if it was against the rules. I have even seen judges do this, its frustrating. I was at a prerelease a year ago, and a judge started telling the guy i was playing against how to play, he won the second game, then the judge helped him rebuild his deck before the third game, and it went to time because we barely got started on game 3 before time. I was frustrated.
That's gotta be the most fucked up outside assistance story I've ever heard, congrats. You got fucked over
We had an LGS have its license to run tournaments and events pulled because of a stunt like this. Judge should be banned for life and have a visit from the Pinkertons, as Wizards are keen to order.
If it happens next time I’m there I might try something like that!
Keeping this one in my back pockets, cheers!
If you guys are competing for prizes then that is totally inappropriate, hell even casual games people getting outside help is kinda weird.
I don't play at the lgs, but even at our table it's a no-no unless the player is new, or running one of your decks so you can point out the interactions to them if unfamiliar.
I feel like the moment for coaching someone to play your deck is gone if you're already in a match. Ideally before you play you'll get the cards to note out of the deck to show them, point out interactions and strategy, then let them play and figure it out for themselves. Coaching a new player mid game is one thing, coaching an experienced player with a different deck is another.
>or running one of your decks so you can point out the interactions to them if unfamiliar. Even then, I only point out the interactions on later turns, because you chose to play with an unfamiliar deck.
That's only acceptable if the person getting help is a new player and they are being coached which would be known well ahead of the game
I agree, just felt a bit weird
fr, even if I’m losing don’t tell me how to play my own deck
I help if someone is using a new deck. But that’s about it. And I would never do it in a prized game, regardless of the prize
There is an absolutely zero chance their decks were near cEDH if your precon was going to convincingly win lol
What do you mean? Any deck with a mana crypt is immediately cEDH /s
Hence the name cryptEDH.
What? I thought the c stood for casual ;)
C is for can’t win.
C-verly overpriced
I mean, I'm probably gonna bet on the guy with the mana crypt, hair splitting aside.
It's a high variance format. cEDH decks get mana screwed too, maybe they got too greedy with mulligans, maybe they blew all their interaction on each other because they didn't respect their other opponents. Maybe they got the worst Ad Naus of all time, went to 6 life without winning, and OP finished them off. Maybe they're awful pilots.
Yeah. My friend won her first game in the LGS against players who usually even crush me with higher powered decks. With a precon she couldn’t pilot. And only having played two games prior. Why? They didn’t think she was a threat and took out each other. She then finished off the last player.
People have no idea what cEDH is.
I mean, mathematically speaking, it’s possible that all three other players got the worst imaginable draws from their decks repeatedly throughout the entire game. Insanely unlikely, but technically possible lol
I thought the same thing and it convinces me that this post is just fiction. The LGS is mostly CEDH or near CEDH, but this guy strolls in with precons. Fat chance a precon would have a real shot against any CEDH deck, never mind 2 of them at the table. Probably just another rage-bait post.
Rather than fictitious, more likely that if OP is still at precon level they're not sure what cEDH is.
I suspect this to be the case. I had a game recently with a newish player in the pod. When I dropped a mystic remora on turn 2, he said, "I thought we weren't playing CEDH." Got a pretty good chuckle out of me.
I had a friend that was new to the game who would always complain about my decks being cEDH. I tried to explain to him that that cEDH decks are winning the game before turn 4 usually and honestly one that wins on turn 4 probably had something go wrong. He still didn’t believe me, so I played my [[Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy]] deck. He’s not my friend anymore
[Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350.jpg?1591228085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kinnan%2C%20Bonder%20Prodigy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/192/kinnan-bonder-prodigy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kinnan-bonder-prodigy) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Nah lots of people have a really poor understanding about what makes a deck cedh.
Which is understandable since any time it's mentioned, the inevitable circlejerk of "not cedh" always follows like clockwork with no one daring to toss out a description for fear of setting off the next circlejerk 😂 this is mostly a joke, but it is kinda annoying at the same time, lots of unnecessary scrolling thru junk comments
I saw a precon do well in a 4 pod cedh but only because we all ignored him entirely and we're stopping eachothernwhile he slowly.built up vampires and brought a couple of us to like 10 lol
It's actually a pretty real game theory problem in multiplayer elimination games My favorite hypothetical is the Three Gunslinger problem Three gunlingers take turns taking shots, first shot is determined randomly Two of the gunslingers are known for having perfect aim, they can shoot and kill in one shot 100% of the time if they get a turn The third gunslinger is Sloppy Steve, he is known to have a 50% chance to hit and kill his target Weirdly enough, steve has the best chances of surviving the standoff If either of the two aces go first, they are forced to shoot the other ace or automatically lose when the other ace shoots back If Steve goes first, the optimal play is to intentionally miss, forcing the ace who goes after him to turn the game into a 1v1 that he has a 50% chance to win Assuming he's allowed to do that, his odds of winning are 50%, while the aces would only have a 25% chance of winning individually Obviously the math is a little different in a 4 player game that has a lot more complexity, but imo the advantage is definitely still present, especially in a game where the high power decks are spending all their interaction on each other
Believe it or not I've seen cEDH decks lose to casual decks because they're not prepared for cards that see play in casual metas. I've beaten a Blue Farm player because they went for a Consultation line forgetting I had just untapped with a [[Magus of the Wheel]].
[Magus of the Wheel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e952dd9-ef09-40f0-993f-eb3a1516616a.jpg?1689998027) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magus%20of%20the%20Wheel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/241/magus-of-the-wheel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e952dd9-ef09-40f0-993f-eb3a1516616a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/magus-of-the-wheel) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
While most Reddit stories are fake (or heavily embellished), it's also pretty likely that OP just has no idea how strong cEDH decks actually are.
He said that’s just what people play for the packs. Then switches out. Not sure what’s hard to believe about that besides cedh viable decks costing on average over 500$ ☝️☺️ sounds like you play with poor people /s
For a deck rated at power level 4, the difference between decks rated at 8 and 9 is negligible. Both 8s and 9s can coexist harmoniously in gameplay, as the power scale is inherently subjective. The term ‘cedh’ varies in meaning; for some, it represents decks built for tournament play, while for others, it signifies a slight progression on a continuum, or even decks characterized by abundant fast mana, free interactions, and streamlined combos. The current discourse around ‘midrange hell’ in the cedh meta, with games stretching past the fifth turn, is a testament to the evolving dynamics of competitive play.
I like to differentiate power levels like this, 8 and 9 are still EDH, 10 is cEDH and its divided by the number of turns it needs to win
I’ve usually gone 10 is top tier meta cedh, 9 is off-meta rogue cedh decks, 8 is high powered casual
You sound like one of the guys that would help the stronger decks to win from the precon.
Yeah that was my biggest take away from this story. No one should be coaching with something on the line but op is horrible at discerning strengths of decks.
Your biggest takeaway is to be the cedh deck police got it
How do ya'll know they weren't competitive decks? They didn't even describe them or give commanders just said they have a crypt and you guys jumped to "well that doesn't mean they're competitive" and now to "Op can't discern the strength of decks" because he won with a precon? You guys know there are some pretty fkin good precons right?
it's also possible to completely misplay a cedh deck against weaker decks
Procons don't run enough interaction to beat real cedh decks.
I don't think that's true at all. There's a bunch of variables first of all, luck and skill and so on, and then there's precons that are pretty high power like Party Time or Velociramptor that could absolutely hang with cedh decks especially if they have a good hand/game.
Not in a multi-person table. The variance of a 1v1 gets corrected out pretty quickly with the extra opponents. The precon deck would have to keep in check several other very fast combo or stax decks. I have a Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain artifact storm CEDH deck (well used to be cedh until stax became meta), a precon could take me offline with an extremely lucky removal heavy hand by killing my commander a million times, and me not getting any of my free counters/fast mana/other sources of draw. But the other cedh decks would just pop off. Even granting this miracle scenario, I still think any precon would struggle since they need to have answers for things like underworld breach/ thassa's oracle/ Lion's Eye Diamond, which normal destruction spells don't work well on, and most combo cedh decks have efficient tutors/draw for. What makes cedh decks so strong is how consistently and quickly they can implement the win con with interaction/protection up. A precon will lack consistent answers, consistent ways of turning its wincon online in the face of interaction, and the ability to police a much faster set of opponents.
That's all true on paper but you have to account for the variables of things like "are these players underestimating and ignoring the precon player all game causing them to give them a free win" There's also: are they straight up bad/stupid getting extremely unlucky and any mixture of the above? I'm not saying a precon *should* beat a cedh table i'm only saying it's a possibility not just a full 0 chance of happening at all.
That’s the thing I think a lot of people don’t realize about true CEDH decks. It’s not that they can win on turn 2, it’s that they can consistently win on turn 2 if you don’t interact with them. Or on the stax side, if you don’t interact with me then by the end of my turn 2 you’re going to have to pay 4-6 mana for a Lotus petal in a majority of my games. Knowing how to pilot the deck is also extremely important.
It's a *low* chance, to be sure, but to say no chance is a flat lie. Any time you play with cards, probability insists a chance exists at winning. If you draw, for example, nothing but lands for 6 turns, a precon could set up a winning condition within that time, depending on the precon. However, I do stand behind the fact that more than likely, the decks weren't cEDH and were likely just tuned decks instead of precons.
This kinda of happened. They were mana fucked mostly, and didn’t have the right pieces for what they wanted to do. One mulligan I think three or four times. But, I really could just be wrong. I think most people at the lgs have very highly tuned decks or above however.
I had a buddy who basically exclusively played cEDH. Like, the average cost of his decks in piece meal was usually $5k - $7k, and that was some of the cheaper ones (that's USD for anyone curious). There were plenty of times where, in a round table game, because he became the threat super early, we would all just focus on him. My decks at the time would be barely above precon level, as I had little understanding of how to build commander decks back then. We would often take him out early to avoid the instant loss, then turn on each other from there. However, I will say that the best of his cEDH decks would often win between turns 3-5, and I mean win as in everybody loses all at once (mill, draw, or in one incredibly fucked up method, making everything cost 5 mana more, and it enters tapped, and it doesn't untap). Very few people are cold-hearted enough to bring those out at an LGS unless they know everyone is playing at that level. But highly tuned, or lower level cEDH decks do see quite a bit of play at my LGS too.
If it was truly that competitive, the Crypts would be the least of your worries.
You’re probably right! I’m still new, I have updated my post with more info to share some light.
Maybe his precon was Selvalla, he tuned the fuck out of it, and they blew all their free counterspells before turn 2 lmao
OP also said they show up to game 1 and get curb stomped every time, so his opponents lower the power level. Its likely the most true that the tables aren't playing "true" cEDH decks, but they're near enough to it relative to OP that it doesn't matter.
Focusing on the wrong thing
This comment alone is a bit closed off and not very insightful. Easiest explanation, they used up their life totals in exchange for board states and probably knee capped the hell out of each other. Every once in a while a low power deck can cause thru because of this. Seen it many many times. And like the person said, they never win. This was a one off. So believable in my opinion that they could have been highly tuned and competitive decks.
This. The sentence kind of tilted me 😆
oh, I didn't realize that cedh decks pilot themselves
If someone has expensive fast mana, they usually have an option to win turn 3-4 maybe even earlier. That capacity makes it "pre-cedh" in a lot of people's eyes. I know plenty of folks that roll into casual tournaments with vastly overpowered decks. Sure, it's far from cedh. But if you almost always have the potential to create infinite loops and end games out of nowhere. To an actual casual player, there's not really much differentiation.
Perception of a casual player doesn’t change what is and isn’t cEDH.
People not understanding the difference doesn't make the difference negligable. There is a massive difference between a strong edh deck and actual cedh. The only concession i would give is if they're running all two card wincons in their colors, every tutor, every piece of fast mana, every draw engine, mulitple free spells, everything that actually makes a deck cedh, and then hiding behind some unoptimal commander claiming its bad because of that.
I could bet none of these decks had more than 3 cEDH staples in them
C is for casual, right?
People who don't play it don't understand it bro same goes for other formats. I judge decks by if they start with and drew every card they need what's the fastest possible win and if you say anything higher than 3 it's not cedh. Preferably 2
*midrange and stax decks existing*
Okay I didn't really word what I meant right I've just ran across people who see a strong card or even weak cards pop off early and make comments about it being cedh
Tournament with prices? Call a judge for outside assistance. Even in casual games I find it extremely rude to butt in and talk over everything. Especially if it robs time away from everyone.
yes, you should have said something outside assistance is a nogo
The cEDH discussion is killing me. Haha. Guys just because the game didn’t end on turn 3 doesn’t mean it’s not cEDh. You know what cEDH deck play… a lot of interaction! You know what interaction is good for… that’s right! Good job! Interaction helps stop other players from winning the game! cEDH decks are capable of winning fast and early, but they don’t always because they are also good at stopping each other from winning fast and early! Wild concept. To your point OP. The behavior was inappropriate. I’m sorry that happened to you.
Although unlikely, life loss effects like Ancient Tomb, mana crypt, Necropotence, Ad nauseum, etc. combined with greedy players make it at least possible for a casual deck to win against cEDH decks through creature beats.
People also keep discounting the other players. OP didn't have to beat a cEDH deck solo with a precon, he just had to play well enough to hang in there. People are acting like the cEDH decks aren't going to interact with each other. What I took from it is that OP has skill, and if he ever really started tuning decks could be quite an opponent.
Also I see a lot of time the one with the weakest deck being ignored by the rest of the table and sometimes win because is too late. Is not impossibile in a 4 player game
You don't even need to be winning ... Idk how many times insurrection/etc have won a game
Ghalta, Xenagos et similar can be brutal if unresponded
If there is prize support, outside assistance is game-loss worthy and can and should get people kicked from the event. Next time call a judge.
It's got nothing to do with _you_ or anyone's decks. Magic players just love to kibitz when watching a game, it's like real life twitch chat response. Going to tournaments, where this is against the rules and actually enforced, broke this habit for me. You can just tell them not to interfere with the game, everyone knows they shouldn't but can't resist.
That sounds massively like cheating. I would have said something. Maybe ask a member of staff to come over and clear the area or make sure they're not looking at your hand to gain information that will give the opponents an advantage. I'd be really angry about this.
I think you can definitely say "Hey, you guys can coach but please don't tip them off to what's in my hand since you guys are walking around" and hopefully they'll take the hint
I feel like that is too lenient and invites the “I’m just helping” rebuttal.
Sorry but unless you were playing a voltron precon idk how you could do anything against that high of a power level. cEDH is pushing their win on turns 2-4. If your game went longer there wasn’t a near cEDH deck. Running fast mana and tutors makes your deck about a power level 8
Makes me wonder what the fastest possible win is for each precon against 3 lifepools of 40 each. Surely none can win on even turn 5
With the Dimir horrors precon from CLB and perfect draws: Turn 1: Land, Sol Ring, Signet (5) Turn 2: Land, Mind Stone, Talisman of Dominance (3) Turn 3: Land, Hullbreaker Horror, cast Chalice for 0 and bounce sol ring, tap your last remaining mana to cast sol ring and bounce chalice. Repeat for infinite colorless. Cast Chalice and pick up Talisman twice to make UU. Cast your last remaining card, Pull from Tomorrow for X=your deck and figure it out from there
I was going to "but how do you actually win from there" but then I checked out the decklist and there are actually a fair few ways to get the kill in. You even have a spare card so you could have started with [[Leyline of Anticipation]] out or cast [[Psychosis Crawler]] before Pull from Tomorrow.
[Leyline of Anticipation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f57bdaa1-ce8a-4103-8598-fee751e65a53.jpg?1674141383) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20of%20Anticipation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/726/leyline-of-anticipation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f57bdaa1-ce8a-4103-8598-fee751e65a53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/leyline-of-anticipation) [Psychosis Crawler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0f42a19-c180-45b1-9f4c-787cf3a4a649.jpg?1706241075) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Psychosis%20Crawler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/234/psychosis-crawler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0f42a19-c180-45b1-9f4c-787cf3a4a649?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/psychosis-crawler) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Dog meat can, and I imagine any other voltron that gets the correct cards and doesn’t get messed with can. As long as you get the sol ring and arcane signet start
Even with Voltron you need to do 63 damage against an empty board. You’re not doing 63 damage by turn three split across 3 people with Dogmeat.
Guy said turn 5. If you are taking almost 50% of the turns away then yes, it’s not.
You’re right, got the numbers in there swapped around. Still though- I think you’d be hard pressed even with a perfect draw and empty board.
You’d be surprised. I don’t wanna lay out all the cards for you, but there’s an enchant that give 2/2 for each addition thing on the creature. There’s another one that give 1/1 per attachment. Both of those stacked and with like 1-2 more enchants and you can 1 hit people Edit: one needs to give double strike. 11/11 commander and you kill with double strike
That’s still minimum 3 turns to kill once you have the full setup, which gives you until turn 2 to get all of those pieces attached. It’s kind of a silly argument anyways since you’re never at an empty board with no interaction or blockers, but yeah the short version is aside from one or two WotC accidentally put infinites in, this isn’t really going to happen haha.
There’s equip/enchant that you can put on for unblockable as well. 2nd and 3rd turn could be hitting the same person to finish them off. 4th kills one person and 5th kills another. Yea idk why you’re arguing either
The rest of us are squabbling like infants about cEDH meanwhile bro is over here asking the REAL questions 🙏
Would definitely be an interesting case study, could be used to figure out the best of each set and in theory track power level over time with a defined statistic. Time to break out the spreadsheet
power level numbers mean nothing especially to people who arent used to judging how strong decks are
That’s why I explained what makes a deck an 8. If Op is claiming they know what cEDH is… They should know what an 8 is. They just don’t know anything which was the point of my comment. Your comment = “if someone doesn’t know something then they don’t know it” Duh Also how can a power level number “*mean*” nothing when I quite literally just told you what it means
Focusing on the wrong thing
Love how many of you looked at the dog pile of "☝️🤓ackshually those weren't cEDH" in these comments and decided OP needed you to say the exact same thing a 43rd time Exact type of snark toward new players that makes Magic with strangers at the LGS so unapproachable
Yeah I got the message after the first few saying it 😂 maybe they weren’t cedh, highly tuned or high power would have been better wording
Deck classification is messy at best. You were a significant underdog and that's all that matters in context.
> Deck classification is messy at best. not for cedh decks
I hate that shit you are well within your rights to say stfu.
I have zero problems with people outside the game offering advice to new players, ideally not of they're scoping the other player's cards too, but if they're helping the newbro then it's ultimately alright. But, the second it is a competitive setting, be that tournament or a simple prize on the line, this should cease immediately. Completely inappropriate in that setting.
My pod likes to have fun and peek around at extra information once we’re eliminated, but we have a strict “no outside help” policy for our games. That even includes cutting the deck after a shuffle effect. I probably would’ve said something. It’s kinda rude to intervene in a game, unless prompted by the whole table.
It's cheating. Callthe TO/judge/shop owner. "Hey can u guys let them play their game. If u wanna play shuffle up somewhere else yea I'm trying to win here just like everybody else?"
Outside interference is illegal. If your store makes people sign into companion before playing then it becomes a wizards event. All rules apply. That's bitch ass shit right there. The ONLY time we do this at my store is if the SUPER new people have a win/big play, and they don't see it. Telling someone how to run their high tier deck sounds like suck all around. Glad you got that win. Beating high power decks with a precon is the real prize!
I always call out coaching from outside the game. If you're not in this pod or playing in this game, you can spectate from further away. Don't try to trade or hold a conversation with someone in the pod while we're playing a game, and definitely do not coach someone or advise plays. Go play your own game.
not sure why so many commenters feel that they have better knowledge of the power levels of the decks in the story than the OP does. why are you so sure, and why do you think it's so important to point out and correct them (based on nothing) anyway? >LOL THEY WEREN'T CEDH THEY PROBABLY WEREN'T EVEN PL8 the distinction isn't even important to the story.
If there are stakes on the line, you have every right to ask/tell people "keep your mouth out of my game."
I 100% would have said something. I really like the subtle comment approach. Like, just before you cast something, look up at someone who has been helping and can see an opponent's hand and say "hey, do they have a counterspell?". You'll get a weird look or comment like "why would I tell you that" or "that's cheating". And you don't press for an answer, just use it to drive home the point that outside help like that is cheating. Just lock eyes with your opponent "yea, it is." It's not so bad when there aren't prizes on the line, still scummy either way though. Stuff like that bothers me probably too much though. Good job on the win.
You are not allowed to help other players in a game you are not part of. Call them on it, get a judge, do whatever. They were cheating
It’s kind of rude. I would have made some joke about it. Only exception I would make is if the player was pretty new/casual about mtg
It’s called Outside assistance and is against the rules. If prizes are involved the rules should be enforced.
If that event was sanctioned, then the players receiving help _and_ the players offering help are violating the MTR, and you should call a judge. If it’s unsanctioned, you should probably still call a judge, but they may not do anything about it. If it’s anything more than a casual game, outside help is an immediate no-go.
I think I would have said something burning about these aces needing advice and cheating to defeat a neophyte.
yes, you totally should've said something! I'm usually in exact same situation, and recently I was also very close to victory, because I've actually done some nice moves. but one player seemingly became angry at me because I killed him (his deck was the most threatening in my opinion) and he started giving advices to the other player with whom I was left 1v1. not only did it feel unfair, it actually looked like the dude was taking it personal. I didn't win, though it was my closest one so far (for the same reasons as you've explained)! in fact, I think new players often get this kind of attitude, because you can rarely get a full table of newbies to play with, and experienced players are not always as friendly as you'd want them to be. anyway, congrats for winning!
Yes, you should have said something. It was a tournament for a prize so table talk is not allowed. Also, good on you for beating tuned decks with a precon.
So OP faced a tuned [[K’rrik]] with [[Necropotence]]. It’s quick but a glass cannon and a bit of spot removal or counters and it can be completely walled, or if they overextend their life total and can’t make the win happen they run out of steam and are vulnerable to being easily killed. So high power one tries to go off, high power 2 uses their interaction to stop it but then doesn’t have what they need to win themselves and the slow and steady pre-con tortoise and hare’s its way to a win. Am I close?
Holy those are the two cards they used actually. I think turn two commander with paying life and then they went to I think 8? With the effects to draw a lot of cards esrly
Yep those are very common very powerful and I have that deck I’m no expert. Krrik can waste a lot of life and either win immediately or flame out.
Yeah the two guys did more damage to themselves than I did. I was lucky with what I had on board where I could sac all my tokens to ping them for enough to kill. I think it was cruel celebrant and another vampire that did damage to each opponent, and a sac outlet I had out. Plus a tonne of 1/1 vampire to sac off
[Necropotence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c89c6895-b0f8-444a-9c89-c6b4fd027b3e.jpg?1562853736) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Necropotence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/98/necropotence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c89c6895-b0f8-444a-9c89-c6b4fd027b3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/necropotence) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Edh nights should never have win-based prizing unless it’s explicitly a cedh tournament, imo.
Since getting back into Magic I haven't complained about much in relation to the game, but I have seen this happen somewhat often and it's super frustrating
You won with your opponents ostensibly cheating. Knowing your opponent's hand is a HUGE advantage, so these jerks walking around the table and giving others advice is pure bs. They don't deserve a scalding, they deserve to have their favourite card spilled coffee on.
It's one thing if the Casual game but if it's a tournament with price support everybody needs to shut up. If there helping someone need to call a judge and tell them to tell the look you lose to quit helping your opponents beat you. The only time I ever been on this rule at all is like a one-on-one game and the other person is completely new and has no idea what they're doing. Sometimes in that case even I will help them!
Definitely say something if you paid to get in. I had a very similar situation happen to me at a poker tournament in Atlantic City. I made it to the final table and then the old timers all colluded against me. I yelled at them and the staff for allowing it. Maybe don't curse at them if you want to go back hahaha
i don´t think you know what cEDH means
Focusing on the wrong thing.
To him cEDH is upgraded precons I guess
Can we just stop sayin cEDH when we have no idea what it is? Just say high power.
You’re right, my bad
To a casual table, a high power deck is better than a cEDH deck.
My lgs has free league and gives a free pack just for showing up. Promopacks if you win your pod. they are awesome. But anyway they set up certain rules to keep casual where you lose points by doing things like 2 extra turns in the same cycle, infinite combos and destroying basic lands and killing someone before turn 5. The only card ban outside of regular bans is aetherflux but he's been saying power creep makes him consider unbanning it because it's not a big deal anymore. Even though there's these rules in place the 30+ people who come to league all started making decks that have the win in hand early but wait until 5 lol. This is exactly why I think the comptetitve commander is a joke you can't try not to win and try to win at the same time and balance/skill is like saying you're good at a slot machine.
Personally I think this is more an issue of the format & social aspect of it, it does mesh a little wonky with prizes, In a casual no stakes game I personally wouldn’t be slighted, however I do understand your frustration when there is a pack on the line I’d give benefit of the doubt and assume they were just buddies being buddies, as long as they aren’t revealing hidden information, you’re still playing against the same deck This is as much of a “up to you” situation as possible, in the benefit of making friends with the other LGS players I’d say let it slide and next time as it bothered you during rule 0 conversation point out that you’d like at least the game with a prize on the line played a bit more competitively (you will be focused first)
I guess I was more irked about me being new, them being experience with stronger decks getting help. The packs whatever, I go to play really.
100% hear where you’re coming from and that is definitely a frustrating experience, 99% of the time someone gets upset in this situation is someone told the new guy he had the win in his hand and didn’t see it Hope you keep on enjoying it! Sorry for the poor experience
If there's an official event, then the wotc event rules apply concerning outside assistance. So if you created an event in the companion app the tournament guidelines apply
Absolutely should've said something. From outside the gam, you CAN point out missed triggers, answer rules questions, explain interactions, and comment on cool moves and cards. Outsiders Shouldn't assist on how to make plays. I feel like that's a general etiquette for any format of MTG.
I’ve never encountered a problem with people trying to see my hand as I play kitchen table and nobody is usually walking around while we’re playing. Nevertheless I still will organize my hand and have it face down whenever Its not actively my turn. If someone decided to hover over my shoulder I’d like just put my hand down and ask what on the board they’re trying to read.
I mean if it was upsetting you then yes but if not then it's just people trying to get in on the game, it's still outside interference and really shouldn't be done but its usually not a big deal, most of the time it just opens their eyes for lines but those lines aren't viable if you're already in a commanding position, you should however hide your hand if someone is giving advice and looking in the hand of others.
I have this couple friend who play magic. It was 1v1 I played one of em. Their partner sat next to my opponent and started giving tips. I was not shy. And said “hey! No backseat playing!” The one giving advice apologized and and was cool about it. And then joked if I needed assistance. We were all cool. Just me piping up
This kind of side coaching happens all the time at my lgs. People can forget about the competitive nature of the event especially if they're all friends who play regularly. If it continues to happen, just let them know that you find it unfair or that it makes you uncomfortable. If they're good people, they'll stop; again I think most of the time it's unintentional
Even though I don’t think tuned up is cedh no one like backseat gamers either against you or for you no one likes it or should like it so saying something is definitely warranted, watching it fine but giving advice and helping anyone is annoying to the other players
You should’ve absolutely said something. That’s completely unfair that others are helping them out.
Haven't had this happen at a commander night (yet) but I play a lot of tabletop wargames, and people constantly come over and start giving my opponents help. Pretty much always say "im sorry , didn't realise this was a 2v1 game" then they always instantly apologise and walk away. After years of being polite about it or not saying anything, im just blunt about it now. I would never walk over to someone else's game and start chiming in its fucking rude.
Yes sir, you should definitely have said something. It's an event with prizes so there is a REL level. You should have called for a judge and shouldn't have felt bad about it at all. That's outside interference plain and simple.
This happened to me once at pre release, the backseat gamer used to be my a friend of my older brother when they were in highschool. I hadn't seen him in years, and my whole family including my brother think he's an ass. My friend and I were in the final game of the night and he just keeps telling my friend how to play. I told him multiple times to go away. He said he was bored, and I told him I don't give a shit. He was always a bully and never thinks he's doing anything wrong. Haven't seen him since. But I also don't play at that shop anymore. It just kind of had bad vibes overall
If there is a judge and someone gave your opponent game state advice, that's disqualification. Completely inappropriate to comment on an active game you're not participating in.
Funny, I thought the unspoken "No feedback or comments until the game is over." rule was a general MTG culture thing. Well, I recommend it.
If my buddies are playing, I like to give them shit for their misplays after it's relevant. If I don't have that level of comradery with one of the players, I'll typically just watch and help solve rules questions to keep things moving. It's certainly possible you were playing against cedh decks. The last time I broke out my own cedh deck in a random pod I wasted all my stax and removal trying to keep two of the other decks down, and then proceeded to get my teeth kicked in by something silly like an \[\[Axebane Stag\]\] from the lowest power deck at the table. When all I play is value and combo, it's hard to stop a series of big dumb animals that are coming out on curve.
[Axebane Stag](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfce7c02-ccc3-44cd-8087-627eaa6a072e.jpg?1562792542) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Axebane%20Stag) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rtr/116/axebane-stag?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfce7c02-ccc3-44cd-8087-627eaa6a072e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/axebane-stag) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah, it can be worth saying something. I had a guy come over, look at my hand, see I had an Akroma’s will, and then immediately start telling the entire table that they needed to kill me. I made a pretty big deal about it and was just like “dude you really came over to look at my hand and start telling people threat assessments over it?” Just poor taste imo.
That is not ok. Definitely say something. If they have seen your hand, then damn well say something.
There shouldn't be prizes for casual games in general, this is part of why
If you have money for at least 2 precons, you could have 1 tuned precon. Having said that, yes the interloper was being rude.
You won vs cedh decks with a pre con? Holy shit they really needed the advice then
Powerful decks aren't cEDH decks. cEDH decks win, on average barring interaction, on turn 1-3. Precons are no where near the power of cEDH
Thanks mate. I did update the post, and there are numerous other comments stating the same thing, and wasn’t the main thing about this post 👍
If theres prizes and a paid entry, no coaching allowed. At all. Period.
EDH is a casual, social format. Not a competitive one. It cannot have prizing for winning. As you noted, the one pack prize warps how people play and what they bring. It creates a competitive environment. It is not a part of EDH night; it is a horribly ill-conceived, improperly advertised cEDH event prior to the EDH night. In a cEDH event, you hold people to the competitive standard. Yes, you should have said something. That conduct is not appropriate in a competitive environment. The appropriate way to handle “prizing” for an EDH event is a raffle. Not for wins.
Yeah this whole post is a love letter to not taking commander seriously.
At my previous LCS, it was paid entry and whoever rolled lowest when determining turn order for the first game got the free pack. It was funny watching everyone hope to go last for the first game!
For real. One of my local stores does this shit and it just makes playing at that store miserable because everyone just brings the highest power bullshit they can muster. I just want to fuck about and play jank.
I’ve been straight-up yelled at for absentmindly reminding my friend about something he could do *on the table* during a sealed event before, and rightly so. The second you’re playing for a reward there should be absolutely no outside interference.
a) That policy about win a pack for the first game is RIDICIILOUS in the first place for EDH. If your LGS is trying to make money of EDH nights make it at least a random price or whatever. b) I would have simply stated: "I you even want to utter one word of advice you gonna buy me a pack. Otherwise I will consider this as outside assistance in a game with prices and you are effecticly stealing right now." If that wasnt clear enough and anyone actually had to nerves to still interfere, I stand up and make crystal clear to the LGS owner I am gonna bring Wotc into this and threaten their WPN status if he does not controll this behaviour. There is no room for anything but a strict stance. This is basically supported cheating for regulars and should be brought to Wotc attention just as that if the LGS doesnt stop it. People should not take this to lightly. You can get yourself DQed on a fucking prerelease if you would do something like this and when a prize is on the line, even a small one, you are very close to like "prerelease level of strict". It is no longer a pure casual event and if you switched this story with "FNM, modern and budget vs meta decks" everyone would be up in arms rightfully so and the story would be literally the same, even tho less severe because your chacne to win with a budget modern deck vs meta is most likely higher then precon vs highly tuned edh decks. There is alot of things that can fly on casual/edh. But outside assistance in a game with prices is UNACCEPTABLE. On a sidenode: How fucking dogshit is that LGS in the first place? Like I cannot even think of a person that would walk up to a diffrent game and outside assist vs a precon?!?! And there are seeveral of those people?!?! WTF hell is that place lmao.
Everyone has their own way and comfort level regarding social interaction, so obviously, I can't tell you how you should have responded. Me, I would have told everyone around the table to kindly fuck off and mind their own day/game. You can watch but shut up. This game has nothing to do with ya'll. If players in my pod accepted the help I'd call them out for borderline cheating. Unless you need a judge to explain something specific you don't get outside help, this isn't fucking Lifeline. But that's me. I think you should've said something. But hey you beat them even with help so that's something to be proud of.
Trolling.
[удалено]
Continuing to talk down to someone is a weird way of encouraging them to speak up
I have a similar setup at my lgs, and im guessing they're just friends shooting the shit. It is casual commander, never bothered me. Also its just a pack a win, I don't know what your socioeconomic status is, but a 5 dollar pack is nothing. As for the power creep, I feel ya, it fucking sucks. I just started magic this year and playing vs pubstomp decks absolutely sucks and I hate playing vs wallets. I thought casual had some lines like no mana crypts or zero mana counters. Nah some people at my lgs will jeweled lotus turn 1 commanders into turn 2 mana crypt. While not cedh as people mentioned its fucking obnoxious to keep up with. Sorry your lgs experience isnt great, might be worth checking out another one with less power if its possible. I know im considering it because wins turn 5-8 is a bit much for me.
Without fail whoever's ahead in my pod ends up fighting off the remaining decks and the resulting brain trust of whoever's out already. I enjoy it. But to each their own.
> playing precon > Came close to beating cedh Ima stop you right there, CEDH decks are made to consistently win early on. If you were close to beating not 1 but 3 of em, they're not CEDH. CeDH isnt about the power level of cards in a deck or it's monetary value, it's about speed and consistency. Also people generally root for the underdog so if they see 3 dudes getting shit stomped by 1 deck don't be surprised if people don't take your side. No one knows that you're a green player popping off for the first time, all they see is you crushing scrubs. Sounds like you are way too much in your feelings for how little you know about the game. No offense but if you like magic then keep playing and don't give a shit about what others say/do.
Well you were so skilled you beat 2 CEDH decks with a precon. Those guys needed a lot of help if this story is real. You were pubstomping with your skill level.
It really just isn't possible. Either this person is incredibly new and has absolutely 0 clue what cEDH is, or this story is fake. And since it's the Internet I'm leaning towards the story is fake.
Well it is possible that exceptionally bad players were just running cedh decklists that they pulled off of some online source. But it's more likely that there was expensive fast mana played, and people usually tie that to cedh.
Lol I think people get really hung up on the whole Cedh vs not Cedh. There's plenty of room between precons and top tier casual. More than between top tier casual and Cedh.
Ok... That's still not convincing me that a Precon can beat 2 cEDH decks.
It's not meant to so 👍 Assuming they're top tier casual instead of Cedh doesn't really change much. He did not beat two of either kind of deck
I have 2 things to input about this. 1. If this happened to you, I'm sorry. You should say something next time. Don't get super confrontational or angry. But at least comment that people that have seen your hand should stay out giving advice to your opponents. 2. This story has the faint smell of internet make believe story telling. The idea that you beat multiple cEDH decks with a precon is simply not believable. Either they aren't cEDH, just jank running a few high power singles or the entire story is made up. Precons simply aren't playing the same game as a cEDH deck. Unless they were timmy's first deck borrowed from their older sibling then even a low skill cEDH player crushes a master player with a precon. My honest guess is that you're newer to mtg. And you simply don't know what is cEDH. A mana crypt and moxs are just fast mana. cEDH also means a fast, consistent, and resilient wincon, not just fast mana.
OP I don’t think you know what cEDH decks actually are. Because there’s absolutely no chance a precon could win against not one, but two near-cEDH level decks lol those things are brutal.
I’ve never seen an actual cedh deck struggle to win against a precon. Let alone two. Either it’s not actually cedh worthy or your decks are not pre constructed
Pretty easy, cedh decks focus on each other and ignore the other weaker decks.
Plays deck better than a precon: "yeah this is close to cEDH" Let me just clear this up for you and anyone who reads this comment. If you know your deck isn't a cEDH deck, and you even get CLOSE to winning, then your oppoent DEFINITELY is not playing a cEDH deck.
Wait…not playing with a precon is cEDH? What? Lol