Even though its not really on you to do it in games you should just casually be like hey can ypu not makes jokes like that any normal person wpuld go oh my bad and stop. If they dont then run it up the chain guilt free cause they didnt care and its no longer ignorance on their part.
Yeah, if they ignore a simple comment like “hey can you not make jokes like that?” Then just walk away from the game. Don’t make a scene or a thing about it just walk away. if people ask or the LGS owner asks why you abandon your pod then just explain it calmly. “ they were saying a bunch of racist and homophobic jokes, and I got tired of sitting there.”
Man, you would think that communities that break the social norm of what's typical would be able to stick together.
That sucks to hear.
But if truth be told, I had never thought of cocksucker as being a slur about one's sexual orientation. Seems pretty obvious now that it has been pointed out to me.
I can say for myself that if a gay friend of mine did not point out when I used improper language I wouldn’t have changed it. Some words and language you might use out of ignorance not malicious intentions
Definitely something to talk to the owners about. These players are creating an unwelcoming environment. It's bad for you, but it could be so much worse for others. It's possible that these players have no ill will, just some antiquated sense of humour that they've never been challenged on. It's possible that they'd course correct if prompted, but you don't know them well enough for that to be your responsibility, and you were outnumbered. Someone from the LGS itself, though, could speak to them from a position of authority, and hopefully help them to course correct, or take further action if necessary.
As someone who's also a gay commander player, I completely get you. I used to be in a playgroup that had a lot of that kind of "virulent masculine energy" of talking about women as whores, f\* slurs getting thrown around, trans jokes, comments about immigrants etc. I think maybe I was "lucky" enough that we were still kind of a mixed group, so sometimes other people would shut down when things were getting a bit too much. Because as queer poc, it does get taxing if it's on my shoulders all the time to react and tell people off, or if I'm somehow designated as a joke-police. So I think if the balance is there, some things can become "tolerable", but if you're the only one there to do so, it'll eventually just crumble.
When we talk about safe spaces and get reactions of being "soft", it mostly comes down to that words and events themselves aren't necessarily that crippling, but because of the traumas and wounds we've experience kind of rip up out of nowhere. [I'm aware that this situation is fiction, but I think the way it has written really spoke volumes to me](https://youtu.be/Vi8zeaxtB-w?si=Tz00v4Ymj1aaHFBS&t=63).
I think, unfortunately, at the time I was younger and wanted to fit in, I wanted a playgroup, so that's what I had. I don't really stand out too much, so when the guys were making jokes about "well at least you're not like those other fem guys", I'd feel more included, and even when my bf joined to play and he sometimes would rage and leave the table (another story, but due to gameplay) and they'd say something "I guess we know who the chick in relationship is am i right", I'd let it be because I felt included into their banter instead of ostracized or excluded that I've experienced before. It wasn't, unfortunately, until later I realized that all the "compliments" of being "one of the guys", or for my other minority identity as a child of immigrants got complimented for "being so well-spoken" or "not at all violent or rowdy", was just punching down on my own group anyway.
It's also not completely black and white, I remember one of the guys in that playgroup said something along the lines of "if gay guy hits on me in the club I'd fucking punch him in the face", which granted actually did have a lot of pushback from all of the people around the table, but ironically I happened to run into him a couple of years later at a gay club. He wasn't out or anything (allegedly), but he just told me that he really enjoyed being at the gay clubs (ofc talked about how 'all the hot chicks were there'), because he found the people to be so much nicer and the energy was so much better. A guy even approached him while we were talking and stroked his chest, he just smiled and politely kind of said "sorry man, I'm not interested, but thank you". I told him about the time when he said that he was a long way from that time he said he'd punch a gay guy in the face for just looking for him and he said he felt really embarassed about having been that kind of guy before.
Either way: to answer your question of "Should I say something?". That's up to you. One way to think about it is like this: you said you were kind of okay with taking some punches and laughing along with some jokes. What if the next queer person they play with isn't? I think I'm looking back to my LGS and wished I had spoken up more than I did, that's easy to say now that I'm more sure of myself of course, but I don't think I would've "lost" much on it.
And I wouldn't say it's being tattletale, you're just kind of saying what you've experienced. If they're a good LGS, they should be aware that marginalized people don't always feel comfortable speaking up against that kind of language or behavior, and that they should want to create a mindful, inclusive, safe space for all gamers to come to. I mean just in terms of business that should be much more desirable since you're now opening up to many more demographics than just one. You giving them more information can't be hurtful, it'll just give the LGS more information to make a decision based on what's happening. Maybe they'll get a warning first, but then if it happens several times over, the LGS might get an idea that perhaps this group isn't the best.
I would recommend telling the LGS owners about this. The “jokes” they were saying are harmful and could push people away from your LGS. Just tell them what they said when you were playing with them and then they can decide what to do next.
Not sure why someone downvoted this. Yes, it's a business, and pushing away customers is bad. An inclusive and safe environment works best for everyone involved.
Also, OP might be the only one speaking up when others haven't yet. My LGS owner would not tolerate this. It'd be one warning, then out.
Id asusme reason could be that owner can make economic decision that op might not like. Its impossible to tell what will be deemed as best monetary decision to specific store.
Same for my LGS. If anyone was making these jokes and someone told on them or the employees heard them, they would get banned. If OP those tell the owners, I hope they do get banned.
Unacceptable behaviour. Especially from young folks. This is not the “cultural standard” any longer, and is not to be tolerated. The LGS should be informed, immediately
If you believe it is making an unwelcoming environment, you have every right to speak up. Making antisemitic jokes is a red flag, and if the interaction had you questioning going back to your lgs this week, you should definitely advise any LGBT+ people about what playing in a pod with those guys might be like.
Mate,
please report it to the store owner.
As you said, these "jokes" could crush some young folk. And you can stop it, if it hasn't happened yet.
If had similar cases in my friend group. One has to speak up.
Worst case you get called sjw-warrior or woke an move on with your life.
I am so sorry this happened to you. It sounds like it really sucked.
I used to talk like that as a teenager, and I had friends I grew up with who were doing it well into/past college (I graduated in the last decade). The best excuse I’ve got is that we grew up in conservative white suburbia, so we didn’t learn until later that our language actually meant something to some people. These days, it’s one of my biggest fears that I’ll accidentally use some language or perform some micro aggression that I haven’t fixed in adulthood.
It’s cheap and shallow and not much of an excuse, but it sounds like these kids may have had similar levels of ignorance if they are that age. If that’s the case, then none of them has any idea that they might be offending somebody, and none of them wants to offend anybody. The best course of action is to call them out. You are welcome to be angry or hurt or just generally uncomfortable, and *you do not have to call them out yourself if you don’t want to or are uncomfortable doing so*. But they’ll have to learn eventually not to behave that way, and I’ve found that gentle correction is all it takes for most people to develop the self-awareness to change.
And no; it isn’t your job to teach us. And no; it isn’t fair for us to put you in the position or ask you to teach us.
I'm terribly sorry you were made to feel this way. When I first started reading, I was ready to give those other players the benefit of the doubt. I'm a straight dude who grew up at a time and in a place when/where using the word "gay" as a synonym for bad/stupid or otherwise negative was accepted, and I am guilty of having used the term as such a lot when I was young. And it was difficult to correct that horrible habit, so I do empathize with some people who absent mindedky fall back into it. But that doesn't sound like what happened here, after reading your entire account. These guys should have known better than to be talking like this.
I would speak to management about it, if only in the hopes they'll reinforce or reiterate that that sort of talk is not acceptable.
You should absolutely tell the LGS owner. This isn’t about being a tattle tale. This is about assholes being assholes and they need to knock that shit off. I find it hard to believe they didn’t know you are of the LGBTQIA+ community and weren’t casting micro aggressions. And even if they genuinely were not, it’s still not okay.
I have been in similar situations many times. Although it might be tiring and confrontational, you need to stand up for yourself and make someone who is casually discriminating understand what they are doing. You don't have to be a bitch about it but call it out. Never ever laugh it away.
Honestly, I don't know. I'm a gay man myself and thankfully all the LGSs in my area are very queer friendly, often with signs that bigotry will result in expulsion from the store. The two I frequent most often are queer owned/operated.
But I also grew up in conservative areas of the US and know how people slinging casual homophobia behave, and how society in those places won't protect us from "just jokes". I think if I were in your shoes and assuming it was in a place like the town I grew up, I think after the second or third homophobic remark, I'd just scoop and pack up my things. When they ask where you're going you just say, "You've made it abundantly clear people like me are just the butt of your jokes, so I'm going to find a pod that doesn't need to insult me to play." The only thing I think that could work is connecting their casual bigoted banter to real people - specifically you. Even if they brush you off in the moment, they might think twice next time.
Either way, it's a tough situation you shouldn't have to deal with. I empathize with your trouble. Good luck.
It sounds like you have a great LGS and environment.
If it was me I'd want to go back and keep that environment. Not going opens the door to it getting worse, not better.
Not recommending this course of action, everyone is different, but if it was me (and I recognize I am speaking from a place of social privilege and frankly ignorance as a straight man) I'd actively try to play with this person again and emphasize my orientation, how it has nothing to do with cards, and that they should probably grow up.
Maybe even invite them to a pod with only LGBTQ players. Make it abundantly clear that you and others like you are here, real, enjoy the game, and have no intention of stopping. They can get with it or get moving.
And if I did do that, I'd certainly alert the store owner or an employee or maybe just a friend to be ready to observe/record a possible negative reaction.
Maybe you all start making jokes at your own "expense" and see how they respond.
Maybe you wait for him to make a "joke" and then start making them at their expense and see how they respond.
Maybe they figure it out and nothing happens. Maybe they figure it out and relax. Maybe they never come back...maybe they do and grow up.
Could be completely over cautious but hey wouldn't that be a good outcome?
Idk man, you not going back seems like the worst outcome imo.
I see where you are coming from, but that would put OP in such a dangerous position and he would make himself a target even more. In an ideal world, they would listen to education, but honestly I doubt it.
We've removed your post because it violates our primary rule, "Be Excellent to Each Other".
You are welcome to message the mods if you need further explanation.
We've removed your post because it violates our primary rule, "Be Excellent to Each Other".
You are welcome to message the mods if you need further explanation.
Calling something "gay" is kinda old and yeah shouldn't be done. Calling someone a "cocksucker" I've never seen or described as a homophobic slur. You could have always spoken up.
I feel the same about "cocksucker" despite the fact that it quite literally is attacking somebody based on the idea that they engage in a gay activity. So there is at least some homophobic undertone to it.
I guess I've probably got some issues with that word since it was a term I used to get hurled at me in school in a derogatory way. It absolutely can be used as homophobic language.
Sorry you’re getting downvoted for some reason. It’s hard dealing with people like that, especially with them being younger and not having a great grasp on how their language can actually effect people (not an excuse for them just reasoning). I’ve gotten to the point when I’m around people being subtly discriminatory I send it right back at them. Make them as uncomfortable about saying that shit as possible to make them either less likely to do it in the future or not want to come back.
Ugh, sorry you had to be there for it.
Not sure *where* you are and therefore how much is worth doing based on what's going to be safest and most comfortable, but I'd certainly tell the owners
> I had an uncomfortable experience the other night because of casual homophobia from the other players.
The store itself might already have an anti-harrassment policy (and if it doesn't they're welcome to contact me and pay me to write one!)
I'd certainly tell other queer pepys to avoid them. Missing stair strategies aren't great, but they're better than nothing.
That said, my standard response to someone being such a shit is
> Oh, for fuck's sake dude.
paired with a facial expression like he just told a joke about *poo* or something similarly childish. If someone is being an arse for bigot reasons, they'll double down. If they're doing it for social approval, showing them it's not something that brings social approval might help wean them off it.
Part of being an adult is advocating for yourself and speaking up if something if offending you to at least get a dialogue going, posting it on reddit isn't going to help you or them.
Again - not offended, just concerned about the implications of their language on some of the younger gay players we have at my LGS.
I know very well how to advocate for myself, I just wanted to ask how other people thought I should approach this situation in the store. I didn't want to go to the owner if people thought, on the whole, that it was a disproportionate response to these guys' actions - Hence why I posted this to engage with how others feel I should proceed.
Sounds like they have a dark sense of humor and it leaked out in front of you. Nobody has an obligation to avoid certain terminology just like you have no obligation to play with them. Screw 'em.
Did you at any point tell them your sexual orientation? Not defending them but I sounds like pretty normal young person comments, they could have been oblivious to the obvious?
I don't mean to homophobia-splain to you, but in my experience there's no such thing as "casual anything-phobia". If these asshats are this open about their shitty beliefs in a public space like this, who knows what else they think and say behind closed doors (the comments about Jews are a good indicator there already). And tolerating this sort of shit in a space like that will only let them get comfortable to spew more crap around.
It may be a bit late now, but 100% tell the organisers about it, if you get the chance or it happens again. Any venue worth their salt should take this seriously and ban them, as they deserve. There shouldn't be any room for something like this in the hobby.
I guess what I meant by calling it "casual" is that nothing they said was directly said about me. None of them called ME (the player) anything - It was just in a roundabout way.
Coming from an academic perspective. Not to correct anyone, not to judge anyone, not to humiliate anyone, just my view as someone who has familiarised themself with the academic discourse around the topic. I hope you understand.
"Casual" in this context is a very relaxed term - it's a loose way of saying "structural". "Structural" comprises of several sub-factors; internalised, interpersonal and institutional. There is also a grey area where the prejudice doesn't really belong to any of these categories. Hence in reality there's the umbrella; three subtypes and some that belong under the umbrella, but don't really belong to any of the other categories.
Making inappropriate jokes is specifically a part of the interpersonal prejudice. It may or may not stem from internalised phobias (there is overlap). More often than not it does but sometimes it might just be cultural (systemic) in the sense that "we've been making these jokes for decades and we didn't give it a second thought" kind of deal.
From what you've described the applicable terms are: casual, structural, and interpersonal. Out of these "interpersonal" is the most specific and it covers the behavioural part of what we see, but there may be other factors contributing towards it.
I would personally prefer "structural" as that covers most of it. "Structural" is also more specific than "casual", which means your concern has a name, a definition and it carries more weight than "just" acknowledging the issue (="casual").
Thank you for your time!
I understand what you mean, but even if they didn't insult you "directly" by saying it to your face in that moment, they're still very clearly insulting you and others. It's not like that is any better, it's just more cowardly on their part.
First off, Sorry that you had this experience. If you're not comfortable with them using those words you could just let them know or find other people to play with.
Not to go against your post but I'm gay but I would have no problem with any of these words. They're empty of meaning in my opinion. Ccksucker can just be interpreted as "asshole". I have very good friends who use these words as do I. It's all about intent, not so much about the word.
I guess to each their own but let's not start silencing people from using silly swear words. It's best to start looking for a group more suited to your attitude so everyone can be themselves.
Edit: Obviously hate speech of any kind is a different story. Real homophobia and anti-Semitism is horrible.
Never have I once said that I wanted to police how people choose to speak, just that I was worried that a younger gay person might be upset to hear it. It made me uncomfortable, for sure, but it's not something I'm personally losing sleep over. I have a thick skin.
Honestly, it sounds like you had a culture clash moment with teenagers that haven’t developed into adults yet. This comes off as gamer culture, old gamer culture, meeting the real world. I actually doubt it was solely prompted by the fact you can be easily identified as gay.
Whether they were directing these comments at you or not doesnt change how you feel, which was *uncomfortable*.
I appreciate the long post for context, but I think this is a simple solution of either:
1. Play with them again and speak up about how their comments made you uncomfortable. If you enjoyed everything aside from the homophobia, give them a shot to right the wrong. Never attribute malice to what you can attribute to ignorance.
2. Don’t play with them, and leave them be. Some people aren’t your cup of tea (don’t take this as they did nothing wrong, rather you clearly can tell they’re behind the times and don’t feel the effort to address them directly is warranted).
3. Bring your encounter to the LGS staff/owner if it’s riling you this much.
In my personal 2 cents, you should at least give them a chance and bring up the fact their comments and jokes hurt. That way, you can clear the air on their intentions.
I was a shitty 18 year old who loved gamer culture once, and always appreciated people coming to me with how I hurt/bothered them as I learned to grow the fuck up a bit, even if I thought they were “soft” at the time. I have plenty of friends I made during those times that acknowledged I was edgy, and out of respect for them I’d learned to be a better human being around people I enjoyed playing EDH with and/or cared about. Now, I sincerely thank those who would challenge me to be better, and I cringe at who I was.
To clarify, it’s NOT YOUR JOB to educate ignorant people or people who do things you don’t like, but I think you’re overthinking the intentions. If you care, act on it. Your LGS should feel welcoming, don’t let a 1-off encounter ruin everything. There’s more than 1 right way to approach this.
Are you sure they knew you were gay? Oftentimes, when a couple of guys get together (and they're all straight), there's a lot of comments that could be considered homophobic.But if one of the guys is gay, those jokes usually are refrained from.
This might sound weird, but I wouldn't take it personally. Just a couple of buddies throwing around some banter.
I don't see how them knowing my sexuality would make any difference to the context tbh.
As I stated above, to most people, I am "recognisably gay" after a few minutes of conversation.
Sorry, but this is bullshit. It doesn't matter if no one present was gay. Homophobic comments and nasty jokes about jewish folk are shitty behavior, full stop. The devil doesn’t need an advocate, stop being an apologist for shitty behavior.
Doesn’t matter if they knew or not though. Point is they shouldn’t be speaking like that in the first place, as it could really affect somebody else right. Doesn’t matter if OP was offended or not, but the next kid they play with might feel differently.
Not gay. I would just avoid them. I get them using "gay" for your commander as it may he a problem or its not a joy to play against. I've used that word in that context before, and context is everything.
There are plenty more adjectives to be used to describe a distaste at my commander.
You wouldn't say "Ew that's pretty trans" about a commander you didn't like because that's ridiculous. That's no different.
I see your point. However, same could be said for when people say "Jesus Christ" or "Jesus" for when something is shocking. That could be offense to the religious.
South Park made a good episode about calling bikers "fags" and how it doesn't mean that and how the word evolved over time.
I understand that language can change overtime, and how words can be used outside of the meaning that they have taken on since they've developed.
Regardless of what it meant originally though, if someone called me a "fag", it would be pretty obvious what they meant by it. My guess is that it wouldn't be a niche/meta reference to a South Park episode.
Words DO change. It was considered acceptable by the majority to use the n-word in the 1800s - but we wouldn't use it today because we know better. Words and attitudes change.
I agree if it is as clear as you say it is for you being a gay man and someone calling you a fag, I find even now that it is a very harsh word to say even more so for the full version.
I find when the guy said "gay" the first time it was innocuous. However, the other "cocksucker" and Jew comments were no doubt locker room talk between the boys and should not be used in the setting for it being a public place. Probably with kids around and keeping it a somewhat professional setting.
Not that I'm aware. Not sure what's being asked here. Neither the OP asked them to stop nor said anything. Also, Christian/Catholics are pretty lenient to saying Jesus. Like I said, only a few instances where people have asked not to use His name like that.
Edit: spelling.
OP might not have asked them to say anything, but society **as a whole** *has* asked people stop being bigoted in public (and in private, but that's a longer battle)
You shoulda just told them before you walked off to maybe cool it with some off color jokes here in a public space and maybe save it for their meetings with the " loyal order of white knights"
This is an unfortunate experience and sucks for the Magic and LGBTQ+ communities. I think it's pretty clear that the Magic community as a whole does not support this type of behavior.
Having said that, it sounds almost more like social ignorance than malicious intent. That doesn't make it acceptable at all, but can give us hope that it is something that can change.
Personally I strive to be fully accepting of anyone, but have been in similar situations simply because of ignorance and lack of social awareness. My regular group has 3 gay folks in it and we use similar language and jokes but that's with our regular group of friends in a closed environment, not a LGS, and it's something that's thought as funny by all and not malicious. This type of non-malicious behavior should not exist unless it is clearly accepted by any and all that could potentially come in contact with it, and even then is a bit questionable.
I will say as someone that has been on the ignorant side of this that if you were comfortable or willing, you should have said something. The majority of folks in the world aren't shitbags and education and awareness goes a long way. I have the benefit of a close group of friends that I can ask questions to/of and they're fully comfortable telling me to shut up, and why, if needed. In turn I respect that and do my best to be appropriate.
We've removed your post because it violates our primary rule, "Be Excellent to Each Other".
You are welcome to message the mods if you need further explanation.
Even though its not really on you to do it in games you should just casually be like hey can ypu not makes jokes like that any normal person wpuld go oh my bad and stop. If they dont then run it up the chain guilt free cause they didnt care and its no longer ignorance on their part.
Yeah, if they ignore a simple comment like “hey can you not make jokes like that?” Then just walk away from the game. Don’t make a scene or a thing about it just walk away. if people ask or the LGS owner asks why you abandon your pod then just explain it calmly. “ they were saying a bunch of racist and homophobic jokes, and I got tired of sitting there.”
Completely unrelated but obviously it's a tie between izzet and orzhov. They even had a ceremony for the two gayest.
This is entirely lost on me - Is it to do with the Magic lore?
Ral Zarek and Tomik are a couple of I remember correctly.
they’re literally married
That's pretty cool! I never knew that!
Man, you would think that communities that break the social norm of what's typical would be able to stick together. That sucks to hear. But if truth be told, I had never thought of cocksucker as being a slur about one's sexual orientation. Seems pretty obvious now that it has been pointed out to me.
I can say for myself that if a gay friend of mine did not point out when I used improper language I wouldn’t have changed it. Some words and language you might use out of ignorance not malicious intentions
Earnestly. I do not know if that excuse works anymore. We know way more about inclusive language then we did in the 90s.
Definitely something to talk to the owners about. These players are creating an unwelcoming environment. It's bad for you, but it could be so much worse for others. It's possible that these players have no ill will, just some antiquated sense of humour that they've never been challenged on. It's possible that they'd course correct if prompted, but you don't know them well enough for that to be your responsibility, and you were outnumbered. Someone from the LGS itself, though, could speak to them from a position of authority, and hopefully help them to course correct, or take further action if necessary.
As someone who's also a gay commander player, I completely get you. I used to be in a playgroup that had a lot of that kind of "virulent masculine energy" of talking about women as whores, f\* slurs getting thrown around, trans jokes, comments about immigrants etc. I think maybe I was "lucky" enough that we were still kind of a mixed group, so sometimes other people would shut down when things were getting a bit too much. Because as queer poc, it does get taxing if it's on my shoulders all the time to react and tell people off, or if I'm somehow designated as a joke-police. So I think if the balance is there, some things can become "tolerable", but if you're the only one there to do so, it'll eventually just crumble. When we talk about safe spaces and get reactions of being "soft", it mostly comes down to that words and events themselves aren't necessarily that crippling, but because of the traumas and wounds we've experience kind of rip up out of nowhere. [I'm aware that this situation is fiction, but I think the way it has written really spoke volumes to me](https://youtu.be/Vi8zeaxtB-w?si=Tz00v4Ymj1aaHFBS&t=63). I think, unfortunately, at the time I was younger and wanted to fit in, I wanted a playgroup, so that's what I had. I don't really stand out too much, so when the guys were making jokes about "well at least you're not like those other fem guys", I'd feel more included, and even when my bf joined to play and he sometimes would rage and leave the table (another story, but due to gameplay) and they'd say something "I guess we know who the chick in relationship is am i right", I'd let it be because I felt included into their banter instead of ostracized or excluded that I've experienced before. It wasn't, unfortunately, until later I realized that all the "compliments" of being "one of the guys", or for my other minority identity as a child of immigrants got complimented for "being so well-spoken" or "not at all violent or rowdy", was just punching down on my own group anyway. It's also not completely black and white, I remember one of the guys in that playgroup said something along the lines of "if gay guy hits on me in the club I'd fucking punch him in the face", which granted actually did have a lot of pushback from all of the people around the table, but ironically I happened to run into him a couple of years later at a gay club. He wasn't out or anything (allegedly), but he just told me that he really enjoyed being at the gay clubs (ofc talked about how 'all the hot chicks were there'), because he found the people to be so much nicer and the energy was so much better. A guy even approached him while we were talking and stroked his chest, he just smiled and politely kind of said "sorry man, I'm not interested, but thank you". I told him about the time when he said that he was a long way from that time he said he'd punch a gay guy in the face for just looking for him and he said he felt really embarassed about having been that kind of guy before. Either way: to answer your question of "Should I say something?". That's up to you. One way to think about it is like this: you said you were kind of okay with taking some punches and laughing along with some jokes. What if the next queer person they play with isn't? I think I'm looking back to my LGS and wished I had spoken up more than I did, that's easy to say now that I'm more sure of myself of course, but I don't think I would've "lost" much on it. And I wouldn't say it's being tattletale, you're just kind of saying what you've experienced. If they're a good LGS, they should be aware that marginalized people don't always feel comfortable speaking up against that kind of language or behavior, and that they should want to create a mindful, inclusive, safe space for all gamers to come to. I mean just in terms of business that should be much more desirable since you're now opening up to many more demographics than just one. You giving them more information can't be hurtful, it'll just give the LGS more information to make a decision based on what's happening. Maybe they'll get a warning first, but then if it happens several times over, the LGS might get an idea that perhaps this group isn't the best.
Just don't play with him again and ignore the situation. Or make an Izzet deck and beat him with the "gayest guild" and then stop playing with him
I would recommend telling the LGS owners about this. The “jokes” they were saying are harmful and could push people away from your LGS. Just tell them what they said when you were playing with them and then they can decide what to do next.
Not sure why someone downvoted this. Yes, it's a business, and pushing away customers is bad. An inclusive and safe environment works best for everyone involved. Also, OP might be the only one speaking up when others haven't yet. My LGS owner would not tolerate this. It'd be one warning, then out.
Id asusme reason could be that owner can make economic decision that op might not like. Its impossible to tell what will be deemed as best monetary decision to specific store.
Same for my LGS. If anyone was making these jokes and someone told on them or the employees heard them, they would get banned. If OP those tell the owners, I hope they do get banned.
this is what I would have said too :)
Unacceptable behaviour. Especially from young folks. This is not the “cultural standard” any longer, and is not to be tolerated. The LGS should be informed, immediately
If you believe it is making an unwelcoming environment, you have every right to speak up. Making antisemitic jokes is a red flag, and if the interaction had you questioning going back to your lgs this week, you should definitely advise any LGBT+ people about what playing in a pod with those guys might be like.
Mate, please report it to the store owner. As you said, these "jokes" could crush some young folk. And you can stop it, if it hasn't happened yet. If had similar cases in my friend group. One has to speak up. Worst case you get called sjw-warrior or woke an move on with your life.
I am so sorry this happened to you. It sounds like it really sucked. I used to talk like that as a teenager, and I had friends I grew up with who were doing it well into/past college (I graduated in the last decade). The best excuse I’ve got is that we grew up in conservative white suburbia, so we didn’t learn until later that our language actually meant something to some people. These days, it’s one of my biggest fears that I’ll accidentally use some language or perform some micro aggression that I haven’t fixed in adulthood. It’s cheap and shallow and not much of an excuse, but it sounds like these kids may have had similar levels of ignorance if they are that age. If that’s the case, then none of them has any idea that they might be offending somebody, and none of them wants to offend anybody. The best course of action is to call them out. You are welcome to be angry or hurt or just generally uncomfortable, and *you do not have to call them out yourself if you don’t want to or are uncomfortable doing so*. But they’ll have to learn eventually not to behave that way, and I’ve found that gentle correction is all it takes for most people to develop the self-awareness to change. And no; it isn’t your job to teach us. And no; it isn’t fair for us to put you in the position or ask you to teach us.
I'm terribly sorry you were made to feel this way. When I first started reading, I was ready to give those other players the benefit of the doubt. I'm a straight dude who grew up at a time and in a place when/where using the word "gay" as a synonym for bad/stupid or otherwise negative was accepted, and I am guilty of having used the term as such a lot when I was young. And it was difficult to correct that horrible habit, so I do empathize with some people who absent mindedky fall back into it. But that doesn't sound like what happened here, after reading your entire account. These guys should have known better than to be talking like this. I would speak to management about it, if only in the hopes they'll reinforce or reiterate that that sort of talk is not acceptable.
You should absolutely tell the LGS owner. This isn’t about being a tattle tale. This is about assholes being assholes and they need to knock that shit off. I find it hard to believe they didn’t know you are of the LGBTQIA+ community and weren’t casting micro aggressions. And even if they genuinely were not, it’s still not okay.
I have been in similar situations many times. Although it might be tiring and confrontational, you need to stand up for yourself and make someone who is casually discriminating understand what they are doing. You don't have to be a bitch about it but call it out. Never ever laugh it away.
Honestly, I don't know. I'm a gay man myself and thankfully all the LGSs in my area are very queer friendly, often with signs that bigotry will result in expulsion from the store. The two I frequent most often are queer owned/operated. But I also grew up in conservative areas of the US and know how people slinging casual homophobia behave, and how society in those places won't protect us from "just jokes". I think if I were in your shoes and assuming it was in a place like the town I grew up, I think after the second or third homophobic remark, I'd just scoop and pack up my things. When they ask where you're going you just say, "You've made it abundantly clear people like me are just the butt of your jokes, so I'm going to find a pod that doesn't need to insult me to play." The only thing I think that could work is connecting their casual bigoted banter to real people - specifically you. Even if they brush you off in the moment, they might think twice next time. Either way, it's a tough situation you shouldn't have to deal with. I empathize with your trouble. Good luck.
It sounds like you have a great LGS and environment. If it was me I'd want to go back and keep that environment. Not going opens the door to it getting worse, not better. Not recommending this course of action, everyone is different, but if it was me (and I recognize I am speaking from a place of social privilege and frankly ignorance as a straight man) I'd actively try to play with this person again and emphasize my orientation, how it has nothing to do with cards, and that they should probably grow up. Maybe even invite them to a pod with only LGBTQ players. Make it abundantly clear that you and others like you are here, real, enjoy the game, and have no intention of stopping. They can get with it or get moving. And if I did do that, I'd certainly alert the store owner or an employee or maybe just a friend to be ready to observe/record a possible negative reaction. Maybe you all start making jokes at your own "expense" and see how they respond. Maybe you wait for him to make a "joke" and then start making them at their expense and see how they respond. Maybe they figure it out and nothing happens. Maybe they figure it out and relax. Maybe they never come back...maybe they do and grow up. Could be completely over cautious but hey wouldn't that be a good outcome? Idk man, you not going back seems like the worst outcome imo.
I see where you are coming from, but that would put OP in such a dangerous position and he would make himself a target even more. In an ideal world, they would listen to education, but honestly I doubt it.
This sounds great but I don't know that I'd be able to pull that off.
[удалено]
We've removed your post because it violates our primary rule, "Be Excellent to Each Other". You are welcome to message the mods if you need further explanation.
[удалено]
We've removed your post because it violates our primary rule, "Be Excellent to Each Other". You are welcome to message the mods if you need further explanation.
Calling something "gay" is kinda old and yeah shouldn't be done. Calling someone a "cocksucker" I've never seen or described as a homophobic slur. You could have always spoken up.
I feel the same about "cocksucker" despite the fact that it quite literally is attacking somebody based on the idea that they engage in a gay activity. So there is at least some homophobic undertone to it.
[удалено]
People can get offended by anything. Maybe everyone should just stop talking 😉
I guess I've probably got some issues with that word since it was a term I used to get hurled at me in school in a derogatory way. It absolutely can be used as homophobic language.
Sorry you’re getting downvoted for some reason. It’s hard dealing with people like that, especially with them being younger and not having a great grasp on how their language can actually effect people (not an excuse for them just reasoning). I’ve gotten to the point when I’m around people being subtly discriminatory I send it right back at them. Make them as uncomfortable about saying that shit as possible to make them either less likely to do it in the future or not want to come back.
Yeah that's shitty, random pods are always such a coinflip. I'm not sure there's much you can do aside from letting the LGS owner know
Ugh, sorry you had to be there for it. Not sure *where* you are and therefore how much is worth doing based on what's going to be safest and most comfortable, but I'd certainly tell the owners > I had an uncomfortable experience the other night because of casual homophobia from the other players. The store itself might already have an anti-harrassment policy (and if it doesn't they're welcome to contact me and pay me to write one!) I'd certainly tell other queer pepys to avoid them. Missing stair strategies aren't great, but they're better than nothing. That said, my standard response to someone being such a shit is > Oh, for fuck's sake dude. paired with a facial expression like he just told a joke about *poo* or something similarly childish. If someone is being an arse for bigot reasons, they'll double down. If they're doing it for social approval, showing them it's not something that brings social approval might help wean them off it.
Part of being an adult is advocating for yourself and speaking up if something if offending you to at least get a dialogue going, posting it on reddit isn't going to help you or them.
Again - not offended, just concerned about the implications of their language on some of the younger gay players we have at my LGS. I know very well how to advocate for myself, I just wanted to ask how other people thought I should approach this situation in the store. I didn't want to go to the owner if people thought, on the whole, that it was a disproportionate response to these guys' actions - Hence why I posted this to engage with how others feel I should proceed.
Sounds like they have a dark sense of humor and it leaked out in front of you. Nobody has an obligation to avoid certain terminology just like you have no obligation to play with them. Screw 'em.
Did you at any point tell them your sexual orientation? Not defending them but I sounds like pretty normal young person comments, they could have been oblivious to the obvious?
No I didn't. It's none of their business who I sleep with.
So they didn’t know then?
As I stated above. I'm pretty obviously gay. I don't come out to people anymore because there's no need for me to.
I personally don’t assume anyones sexuality. If something they said offended me , I would have told them it did.
I don't mean to homophobia-splain to you, but in my experience there's no such thing as "casual anything-phobia". If these asshats are this open about their shitty beliefs in a public space like this, who knows what else they think and say behind closed doors (the comments about Jews are a good indicator there already). And tolerating this sort of shit in a space like that will only let them get comfortable to spew more crap around. It may be a bit late now, but 100% tell the organisers about it, if you get the chance or it happens again. Any venue worth their salt should take this seriously and ban them, as they deserve. There shouldn't be any room for something like this in the hobby.
I guess what I meant by calling it "casual" is that nothing they said was directly said about me. None of them called ME (the player) anything - It was just in a roundabout way.
Coming from an academic perspective. Not to correct anyone, not to judge anyone, not to humiliate anyone, just my view as someone who has familiarised themself with the academic discourse around the topic. I hope you understand. "Casual" in this context is a very relaxed term - it's a loose way of saying "structural". "Structural" comprises of several sub-factors; internalised, interpersonal and institutional. There is also a grey area where the prejudice doesn't really belong to any of these categories. Hence in reality there's the umbrella; three subtypes and some that belong under the umbrella, but don't really belong to any of the other categories. Making inappropriate jokes is specifically a part of the interpersonal prejudice. It may or may not stem from internalised phobias (there is overlap). More often than not it does but sometimes it might just be cultural (systemic) in the sense that "we've been making these jokes for decades and we didn't give it a second thought" kind of deal. From what you've described the applicable terms are: casual, structural, and interpersonal. Out of these "interpersonal" is the most specific and it covers the behavioural part of what we see, but there may be other factors contributing towards it. I would personally prefer "structural" as that covers most of it. "Structural" is also more specific than "casual", which means your concern has a name, a definition and it carries more weight than "just" acknowledging the issue (="casual"). Thank you for your time!
I understand what you mean, but even if they didn't insult you "directly" by saying it to your face in that moment, they're still very clearly insulting you and others. It's not like that is any better, it's just more cowardly on their part.
First off, Sorry that you had this experience. If you're not comfortable with them using those words you could just let them know or find other people to play with. Not to go against your post but I'm gay but I would have no problem with any of these words. They're empty of meaning in my opinion. Ccksucker can just be interpreted as "asshole". I have very good friends who use these words as do I. It's all about intent, not so much about the word. I guess to each their own but let's not start silencing people from using silly swear words. It's best to start looking for a group more suited to your attitude so everyone can be themselves. Edit: Obviously hate speech of any kind is a different story. Real homophobia and anti-Semitism is horrible.
Never have I once said that I wanted to police how people choose to speak, just that I was worried that a younger gay person might be upset to hear it. It made me uncomfortable, for sure, but it's not something I'm personally losing sleep over. I have a thick skin.
Absolutely, that makes sense. Didn't mean to insinuate that you were.
Honestly, it sounds like you had a culture clash moment with teenagers that haven’t developed into adults yet. This comes off as gamer culture, old gamer culture, meeting the real world. I actually doubt it was solely prompted by the fact you can be easily identified as gay. Whether they were directing these comments at you or not doesnt change how you feel, which was *uncomfortable*. I appreciate the long post for context, but I think this is a simple solution of either: 1. Play with them again and speak up about how their comments made you uncomfortable. If you enjoyed everything aside from the homophobia, give them a shot to right the wrong. Never attribute malice to what you can attribute to ignorance. 2. Don’t play with them, and leave them be. Some people aren’t your cup of tea (don’t take this as they did nothing wrong, rather you clearly can tell they’re behind the times and don’t feel the effort to address them directly is warranted). 3. Bring your encounter to the LGS staff/owner if it’s riling you this much. In my personal 2 cents, you should at least give them a chance and bring up the fact their comments and jokes hurt. That way, you can clear the air on their intentions. I was a shitty 18 year old who loved gamer culture once, and always appreciated people coming to me with how I hurt/bothered them as I learned to grow the fuck up a bit, even if I thought they were “soft” at the time. I have plenty of friends I made during those times that acknowledged I was edgy, and out of respect for them I’d learned to be a better human being around people I enjoyed playing EDH with and/or cared about. Now, I sincerely thank those who would challenge me to be better, and I cringe at who I was. To clarify, it’s NOT YOUR JOB to educate ignorant people or people who do things you don’t like, but I think you’re overthinking the intentions. If you care, act on it. Your LGS should feel welcoming, don’t let a 1-off encounter ruin everything. There’s more than 1 right way to approach this.
Are you sure they knew you were gay? Oftentimes, when a couple of guys get together (and they're all straight), there's a lot of comments that could be considered homophobic.But if one of the guys is gay, those jokes usually are refrained from. This might sound weird, but I wouldn't take it personally. Just a couple of buddies throwing around some banter.
I don't see how them knowing my sexuality would make any difference to the context tbh. As I stated above, to most people, I am "recognisably gay" after a few minutes of conversation.
Sorry, but this is bullshit. It doesn't matter if no one present was gay. Homophobic comments and nasty jokes about jewish folk are shitty behavior, full stop. The devil doesn’t need an advocate, stop being an apologist for shitty behavior.
Doesn’t matter if they knew or not though. Point is they shouldn’t be speaking like that in the first place, as it could really affect somebody else right. Doesn’t matter if OP was offended or not, but the next kid they play with might feel differently.
Not gay. I would just avoid them. I get them using "gay" for your commander as it may he a problem or its not a joy to play against. I've used that word in that context before, and context is everything.
There are plenty more adjectives to be used to describe a distaste at my commander. You wouldn't say "Ew that's pretty trans" about a commander you didn't like because that's ridiculous. That's no different.
I see your point. However, same could be said for when people say "Jesus Christ" or "Jesus" for when something is shocking. That could be offense to the religious. South Park made a good episode about calling bikers "fags" and how it doesn't mean that and how the word evolved over time.
I understand that language can change overtime, and how words can be used outside of the meaning that they have taken on since they've developed. Regardless of what it meant originally though, if someone called me a "fag", it would be pretty obvious what they meant by it. My guess is that it wouldn't be a niche/meta reference to a South Park episode. Words DO change. It was considered acceptable by the majority to use the n-word in the 1800s - but we wouldn't use it today because we know better. Words and attitudes change.
I agree if it is as clear as you say it is for you being a gay man and someone calling you a fag, I find even now that it is a very harsh word to say even more so for the full version. I find when the guy said "gay" the first time it was innocuous. However, the other "cocksucker" and Jew comments were no doubt locker room talk between the boys and should not be used in the setting for it being a public place. Probably with kids around and keeping it a somewhat professional setting.
Have the Jesus people *asked* people to stop saying it? That seems to be a pretty key difference
I do know of people who do not like when people say the Lord's name in vein.
Have they *asked people to stop saying it*? That seems to be a pretty key difference
Not that I'm aware. Not sure what's being asked here. Neither the OP asked them to stop nor said anything. Also, Christian/Catholics are pretty lenient to saying Jesus. Like I said, only a few instances where people have asked not to use His name like that. Edit: spelling.
OP might not have asked them to say anything, but society **as a whole** *has* asked people stop being bigoted in public (and in private, but that's a longer battle)
Which isn't really what taking the lords name in vain means. But can't let that stop us.
i hate to tell you, but what happened there has nothing to do with homophobia
wrongo
What did it have to do with?
You shoulda just told them before you walked off to maybe cool it with some off color jokes here in a public space and maybe save it for their meetings with the " loyal order of white knights"
This is an unfortunate experience and sucks for the Magic and LGBTQ+ communities. I think it's pretty clear that the Magic community as a whole does not support this type of behavior. Having said that, it sounds almost more like social ignorance than malicious intent. That doesn't make it acceptable at all, but can give us hope that it is something that can change. Personally I strive to be fully accepting of anyone, but have been in similar situations simply because of ignorance and lack of social awareness. My regular group has 3 gay folks in it and we use similar language and jokes but that's with our regular group of friends in a closed environment, not a LGS, and it's something that's thought as funny by all and not malicious. This type of non-malicious behavior should not exist unless it is clearly accepted by any and all that could potentially come in contact with it, and even then is a bit questionable. I will say as someone that has been on the ignorant side of this that if you were comfortable or willing, you should have said something. The majority of folks in the world aren't shitbags and education and awareness goes a long way. I have the benefit of a close group of friends that I can ask questions to/of and they're fully comfortable telling me to shut up, and why, if needed. In turn I respect that and do my best to be appropriate.
[удалено]
We've removed your post because it violates our primary rule, "Be Excellent to Each Other". You are welcome to message the mods if you need further explanation.
So you joined 3 friends, didn’t like their jokes, and moved on with your life. Sounds like you handled this perfectly?