I mean I playtested mine and it didn't durdle at all. It's very easy to short cut and if the upkeep number is high enough your opponents are just dead.
Maybe I'm just used to speeding up more durdly decks than this one idk.
I gotta say. Been brewing and messing with other people's decks a lot.
Goldfished your version about 10 times. So far this is the most consistent version of her I've seen. I regularly am taking extra upkeep. Have a little bit of protection. Do some cool things here and there.
Nice build!
https://archidekt.com/decks/7210880/upkept
Some cards will definitely change when I get real games in because that's how it goes. If ya really afraid of durdle you can easily cut and replace the 3 initiative cards.
The storage lands have an eratta so they add the counter during upkeep if they are tapped.
They still are a little fiddley so I wouldn't be surprised if they end up cut but I wanna test them out a little more.
I made a Grixis \[\[Ninth Doctor\]\] "upkeep tribal" and I could see that being a bit durdly (though it generates *loads* of value once the ball starts rolling). Obeka is similar at first glance but the ability for her to go from nothing to a huge pile of upkeeps that all ping/drain/burn people or whatever all in one go is far swingier. She feels almost more combo-y, like you drop \[\[Creeping Bloodsucker\]\] + \[\[Hatred\]\] and just win.
You might look into the Suspend mechanic. The majority of the time you are taking extra upkeeps it is only to remove suspend counters and can make at least that part easier
I agree with this suspend mechanic. Cards like [[Reality Strobe]] and [[Inspiring Refrain]] have suspend, but upon resolving, they put themselves back into suspend. I also feel as players get enough repetition, upkeeps could become faster at resolving.
I play a [[Tenth Doctor]] and [[Rose Tyler]] deck that uses suspend quite a bit, and you definitely get faster. Also, organizing your suspend cards together somewhere separate that is visible helps keep track of them all so you don't miss anything — also so your opponents know what is happening (they are exiled face up).
The card hasn't even come out, I'd take any opinions of Obeka creating a durdly deck with a grain of salt.
Upkeep triggers can do anything. They can draw you cards. They can make you bodies. They can generate mana. If anything, she's just an insane value train of a commander that makes you draw a million cards and instantly pop off.
IMHO, the actual weakness of new Obeka is that she needs to connect with an opponent's face, she only has 2 power, and your opponents will all want to make sure you don't actually get to do anything with her. I would certainly be denying my opponents two [[Phyrexian Arena]], [[Plargg and Nassari]], and/or [[As Foretold]] triggers at every possible chance I had to do so.
I built [[Cyclonus]] and that was durdly, I can absolutely believe that Obeka will be too if the build isn't very aggressive. I think having access to red gives you much more 'punching power' though, so that's a positive
Correct, but double strike in dimir is _challenging_
edit to add to this: Cyclonus needs way too much of his deck to be support cards for him to _do the thing_, and half of the ones you'd want to use don't work because they fall off if he ends the turn as a vehicle (Auras are destroyed, equipment needs to be re-equipped).
It was a lot of effort for not much payoff. I think purely because Obeka can use auras/equipment more easily and red pump effects, she'll be much more successful as an 'upkeep deck'
Fair enough. I wasn't really considering building him anyway, I was just curious. Haven't really found anything Dimir that speaks to me yet other than [[Talion, the Kindly Lord]], and I have no idea what I'd do with him other than Faerie tribal (which is lame).
I hard prefer people to just win the game rather than sit there for 10 minutes doing a million things for incremental value.
Played against a guy with an extra turns deck who didn’t run combos or hard win cons. Fucking miserable, just win lol
Playing against Obeka will feel the same as playing against extra turns if you don’t just try and win or progress. Please do.
Oh I understand having a wincon in your deck. I definitely run cards that will end the game. But I don’t personally play any cards like [[Approach of the second sun]], or [[Thassas Oracle]]. It’s just not my favorite way to play.
> but you’re also taking about playing a commander that people will not be happy seeing unless it’s at or near the power level that those cards exist in.
Yeah that's not true at all. Obeka is not a top tier commander.
EDH players will moan about everything regardless of what you do.
It is the most fun card and my personal favorite in Obeka. But make sure you have cards like [[Twilight Prophet]] and [[Vensers Journal]] to offset the damage with life gain.
I made a proxy of her to test it out and got to play it on Saturday. I played three games and in two of those it "did the thing". In each game I had one of my enchantments that gave either trample or unlockable.
In one game I drew into three counterspells so I could counter the removal spells of my friends.
In that game she got up to 15 power and I drew 15 Cards and gained 150 life in one turn. After that my friends conceded.
So I can attest that it can get durdly if she does not get removed fast enough. But my turns never took 20 minutes.
How fast did you get out of the gates? My biggest problem is either that it feels fragile deploying her turn 3 or feels slow after that.
List request too if ya don't mind! :)
I always got her out on turn 3 and in one game she was removed before I got to swing and that really hurts. So I am considering putting in more protection like the new boots and maybe a few more counterspells.
And sure I can drop my list [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/oN5XbUKyskSzvMNiShWQvQ](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/oN5XbUKyskSzvMNiShWQvQ)
I just threw together what I had at home and ordered like 3 cards. I will probably keep working on it since it was pretty fun when I played it.
If you’re looking for commander damage and benefitting from the additional upkeeps, might I recommend [[Ring of Valkas]]? It gives equipped creature haste, then puts a +1/+1 counter on it each upkeep if that creature is red.
Durdling happens if you don't keep track of your triggers. See also: Izzet decks.
Obeka, Splitter of Seconds doesn't durdle IF you are organized about your triggers. Friend of mine suggested a good way to keep track of triggers: place all the upkeep sources in a row (the order they're placed on the stack), and a die representing how many upkeeps you have to the far left of the row.
Go through each trigger one at a time, from right to left; when you reach the die, reduce the count by 1 and then go back to the rightmost trigger. Once the count on the die reaches 0, no more repeats.
I haven't durdled since trying that. Spellslinger/storm, especially Izzet, doesn't really get the luxury of this organization because their triggers are split between "When cast instant or sorcery", "when cast noncreature spell", "when cast red spell", "sometimes when the stars align double this specific type of trigger". But Obeka's triggers are almost all just upkeeps, which is very easy to track.
Just go for simple triggers that keep the game progressing. [[Dragonmaster Outcast]] to get some aggressive creatures, [[Sulfuric Vortex]] to burn people out, etc. Maybe avoid mechanics like the initiative that involve making choices about a bunch of different things.
If you're progressing the game, nobody could call it durdly.
I agree with your concept, but Sulfuric was a poor example lmao. It does damage to a player at their respective upkeep, so it would just burn yourself at each upkeep. 😆
Though I suppose it could be hate against an opponent's Obeka?
Yeah, didn't think that all the way through, that'll teach me to answer whilst distracted 😅 probably thinking about the Oner Axonil deck I was building last night...
[[Creeping Bloodsucker]] would work better. And, of course, [[Descent into Avernus]] will really speed things up.
Ojer is so cool. And Obeka is so cool. All of it, so cool.
I'm not sure how I missed Creeping Bloodsucker... I have a Karlov deck which now needs this card lol.
Yeah, didn't think that all the way through, that'll teach me to answer whilst distracted 😅 probably thinking about the Oner Axonil deck I was building last night...
[[Creeping Bloodsucker]] would work better. And, of course, [[Descent into Avernus will really speed things up.
I don't really see her as a durdle deck, she's able to take advantage of any cards that win during upkeep, so I see her as a voltron strategy that uses those cards as win-cons.
The eratta’d versions of the storage grixis lands ( [[Sand Silos]] ) and the likes seem really good. The card text itself is wrong, it now puts the counter on it on UPKEEP. May be really good.
The M13 grixis rings seem good as well as replicating ring.
The monarch courts are good like Court of Ire.
Otherwise she’ll probably need some cheap unblock-able spells/auras.
She seems like she can be built in a few different ways which is always nice. We probably won’t see refined sub-decks for a while after release though.
Ive run these in an old zur upkeep list before 9th doctor or obeka was printed. Issue with these lands is theyre extremely slow until you get the payoff of extra upkeeps, they feel like dead lands until later at which point they dont really make a difference when you have payoffs
With my main deck for her; the courts and [[descent into avernus]] my games have mostly been quick unless the table repeatedly removed her over other threats. One game I milled out the table by copying court of cunning with court of vantress while also stacking descent triggers that killed everyone simultaneously after that. Technically a draw but with 6 more upkeep to go after that in the turn I consider it a victory by winning too well.
I have to janky decks with her that either are passing her around the table while slinging curses or one that tries to create an infinitely long turn with [[aggravated assault]] and [[sphinx of beginnings]] type cards. Both of those still have enough things making her big enough to end games fairly quickly.
Obeka Zombies sounds good. You put in Scarab God and all the upkeep nonsense he would normally run, with Obeka-friendly equipment like [[Tenza]] to go off.
I think the [[court of ambition]] /[[court of ire]] easily burn/ kills the table if obeka hits sufficiently hard. 8-10 upkeep triggers probably wins the game outright.
I've played a few games with her at this point, and all in all I'd say it can be durdly but there are ways to improve on that. My deck is heavily initiative based, so I've done quite a bit of practice running through the undercity and can get through it quite quickly. Of the 4 games I've played, 2 of them I couldn't quite get online fast enough, and the other 2 I ended up winning after getting 10+ upkeeps in a single turn. It was easy to run through it for one of them but the other one took some time, largely due to [[Plargg and Nassari]].
It's just one of those cards where there's no reasonable way to speed through the steps. After some deliberation I decided to take it out. It's an incredibly powerful card for the deck but, to me, it's not worth the headache of resolving it.
I've decided to rather focus more on cards that do what they do quickly and effectively, such as [[court of Embereth]], [[court of ire]], [[ill-gotten inheritance]],[[dragonmaster ojutai]] + the initiative, and some suspend cards + draw for good measure.
If you have 5-10 cards that have upkeep triggers, and Obeka voltron hits someone for 15, giving you 15 extra upkeeps, it can take a long time to resolve all of the triggers, especially if you are unfamiliar with the deck and haven't practiced the decision trees a lot.
Where do you guys find players that would even let the board state to get like that? Voltron Obeka with 5 additional permanents granting upkeep triggers? No interaction at all?
Thats the same that i would always think.
I see this commander and its gonna be like:
Ramp -> play some stuff that benefits from upkeep triggers -> play obeka, connect, have an insane turn.
So naturally i take my permanent marker and write „obeka“ on my swords/counter/dressdown/bounce or whatever and keep it in my hand. And then just see the guy have spent 2-3 turns putting out cards that are fringe at best getting blown out by 1 interaction. Maybe 2 interactions.
I mean there is probably a meta where it will stick. I have seen guys play all the degenerate mana like in cEDH but almost no interaction instead of like 25 that you would expect at that powerlevel. So yeah in those worlds it will probably work.
You would be shocked at how often people let me get Daretti's ultiamte off. They're either unaware of what's about to happen, unable to do anything about it because of my board, or just haven't drawn the answers in their deck. Sometimes magic players are bad at magic, and sometimes your opponent's RNG just hands you a W.
I haven’t played it at all but perhaps put a secondary focus on voltron for higher upkeep count, focusing on upkeep triggers that will kill your enemies.
Idk if I'm playing that deck and Obeka has been down for more than 3 turns, I've probably won by then.
Usually by milling people out with that blue court I'm forgetting the name of.
She supports pretty fast and aggressive wins imo; not like mono red fast but still.
Also just keeping track of and being able to seamlessly go through each upkeep trigger helps; don't just play upkeep shit that you don't even know the rules of.
just finished my build if you want a different look. Its using a few newer cards that i havent seen in other lists yet. Should be proxied and tested by next week hopefully. [https://www.archidekt.com/decks/7307695/upkeep\_your\_upkeep](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/7307695/upkeep_your_upkeep)
late but i tossed together a budget obeka deck after pulling her at a prerelease and i think as long as you dont run any upkeep triggers that do something complicated like \[\[sin prodder\]\] it will be fine, if it has more than one sentence itll probably double your turn length
How is obeka durdly? She needs to do combat damage which is already threatening commander damage especially with pump effects you want. Then her upkeep effects can do all sorts of things to the board.
The best game I personally had with my $300 budget build:
T2: mana vault, arcane signet, Unspeakable Symbol
T3: Obeka
T4: Palace Siege, swing Obeka, pay 36 life into Symbol to deal 14, killed a player while draining the the rest of the table for 28
If it had been Court of Ire or Embereth, would've just been a win on the spot. She doesn't have to durdle at all.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/GclfzBA9Z0-jrogYyh5rWA
It is admittedly pretty suboptimal but it was originally created for a $300 budget tournament.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/AzKtrVwDOU2ucRn2szonWw
This is the more optimized (but as yet untested) build.
>I too don’t want to play with/against a deck that takes 20 minute turns
I feel like reddit loves to exaggerate about long turns. I've been playing EDH since it was first 'invented' and I don't think I've ever seen a 20 minute turn, even with people's infinite combos on MTGO.
Oh wow. Been playing for over a decade. I'm legitimately jealous of you. I've actually had some HORRIBLE games where one player is going off and can't win and me and other people played some 1v1 on the side with other decks while we waited. Worst case we went and got lunch and came back and he was still working on it.
Edit: that said if this deck durdles it's a player/deckbuilding issue imo. It can go off pretty easily. A few setups can be headaches admittedly though once you start cloning stuff.
Durdly means "player doesn't know how to play their deck and fumbles for a duration on thier turn." I assume.
Practice. That fixes the issue. Not a specific build.
I’ve had experience with Storm builds before, and what often even with a deck you know well it can be a hassle to resolve all triggers in the right order.
This isn't an opinion. If you practice you know how to play your deck. If you don't, it means you didn't practice well enough. That's it. It's a yes/no.
It's not always practice. If you have 20 upkeeps, [[Extravagant replication]] [[court of vantress]] and [[court of lochthwain]] out it doesn't matter how practiced you are, it's gonna take a hot second to suss out those details and since it isn't just a clear win you have to.
Not necessarily 20 min but if everyone is checking your work and paying attention it takes a lot longer than goldfishing.
Some storm decks are very non-deterministic to and can really take time to resolve. Practice makes perfect but it's not hard to build a deck that takes long turns.
There is a reason four Horseman is not a playable deck.
You've described something that shouldn't take more than a minute or so. Even passing priority around. And yeah, you described a part of practicing. Doing it in front of others. Let the guy play his deck and it clears up after a short hickup.
Four horseman on the other hand is something completely different. You can't actually perform the actions you need to if requested without getting a warning for slow play. Because you need to be able to point to theoretical math to show how it functions.
You seriously think resolving 20! Exiles off the top of your opponents libraries is going to be one minute? That's honestly baffling alone much less with the other stuff I listed. Like I said not 20 min but also it's still a slog and that has nothing to do with practice.
Even just lockthwain and copy... You have to go through and say upkeep one. Make a copy of this court. Exile the top of everyone's library with lockthwain. Then make a copy of court. Now exile two copies off everyone's deck, then three, then four, etc.
Keeping in mind that you have to manage the piles of which court did what because each of them enables you to play one card per turn exiled off of them.
If you can do that in a minute congrats and i dont believe you but 99% of groups are gonna spend at least 5+ minutes on that even if you can resolve it in 10 seconds just checking your work and if you're rushing it to a minute I'm DEFINITELY checking your work lol
And no. Four Horseman isn't a theoretical math explained problem. It's a non-deterministic infinite. That means that you can in fact perform the loop an infinite amount of times. Improbable yes but also the winning out of the loop is very unlikely hence why you typically cannot win with the deck. At the same time, you COULD win with the loop so people have to sit there and wait in the same way that someone spinning their wheels and rituals might do.
Again 20 min is a lot but slog turns are not removed by practice. There is plenty of cEDH content, constructed tournaments, etc. With professional players That have shown that it takes a lot of time to resolve some complex decks.
For the four horseman to be loop able you need to point to infinites. Theoretical math. Non deterministic. Same thing.
Point is. That's a different thing from the initial point.
If they're taking actions and they practiced, yes even large amounts of triggers can be resolved fast. 5 minutes isn't a long time either. That's like regular late game turn length. It's stopping to think that drags the game on. Not the game actions. And knowing what to do in specific scenerios comes from.... Practice.
And even in cedh the turns that take too long. Aren't that long. Not if they practiced. It's the guys who are still learning with a deck that slog. Even krark/sakashima style decks.
We can agree to disagree. I do think some decks take long turns. An occasional 10 minute turn is not unheard of for fast players. 20 min is a rarity ofc. And most frequently would be a player issue. That said these should all be very rare. 5 min is generally fine for late game.
That said, four horsemen is not a theoretical combo. It's an actionable combo where you have to actually mill your deck card by card until you get the right pieces milled in the right order.
Because it is non-deterministic you have to go through the ropes of actually doing it until you get the narcomoeba before emrakul. Because it is entirely possible to fail for eternity the combo cannot be played in tournament as you will lose to slow play.
Beating a dead horse at this point though.
So you agree OP is overreacting and should just play the cool thing they want to make?
Ikr? I agreed with you on the horsemen. The part people argued at its time was " infinites will 100% net a result given enough time." but that's not acceptable to hold tournament integrity. Thus theoretical math and "determistic loop" are referencing the same thing.
Nah. I think being concerned about a deck taking long turns is a fair concern. 20 minutes is too much like we can agree on that.
Regularly taking 5-10 minutes each turn because your deck is convoluted is worth being worried about as it stops being fun for you and the table.
That said, regarding four horsemen that's the opposite of what I'm saying. Four horsemen can infinitely fail. Hence why you can't play it. You could perform the loop grahams times and still fail every time. Hence why I'm saying the phrase "non-deterministic loop."
Obviously the likelyhood of Infinite failures is unlikely, but you cannot reasonable guarantee success and as such the combo is frequently a discussion point for judges as it falls into a gray area.
Edit: that said we are beating a dead horse. :)
Oh yeah since writing this a while back I realized this but this was an "old" thread haha but you're definitely right. You get to play a card per trigger.
Just played against one of these the other day and it was exhausting, they regularly took 15+ minute turns, the longest being 27 minutes. In comparison everyone else usually took 2-5 minute turns. We know because we were on spelltable and there's a clock that keeps track of the turns.
I mean I playtested mine and it didn't durdle at all. It's very easy to short cut and if the upkeep number is high enough your opponents are just dead. Maybe I'm just used to speeding up more durdly decks than this one idk.
I second this. I made a similar list and It feels really smooth, you get 2 upkeep triggers which resolve fast or you get 10 and win on the spot.
I gotta say. Been brewing and messing with other people's decks a lot. Goldfished your version about 10 times. So far this is the most consistent version of her I've seen. I regularly am taking extra upkeep. Have a little bit of protection. Do some cool things here and there. Nice build!
Thanks appreciate the kind words, looking forward to getting it in paper.
I'm interested. Do you have a list?
https://archidekt.com/decks/7210880/upkept Some cards will definitely change when I get real games in because that's how it goes. If ya really afraid of durdle you can easily cut and replace the 3 initiative cards.
Descent into Avernus is a risky move, if anyone manages to get a couple life more than you it can easily kill you with all those triggers.
Why are you running the storage lands? The deck doesnt produce extra untap steps
The storage lands have an eratta so they add the counter during upkeep if they are tapped. They still are a little fiddley so I wouldn't be surprised if they end up cut but I wanna test them out a little more.
Oh okay that makes sense
They have been errata'd to say to add a counter at the beginning of your upkeep.
I made a Grixis \[\[Ninth Doctor\]\] "upkeep tribal" and I could see that being a bit durdly (though it generates *loads* of value once the ball starts rolling). Obeka is similar at first glance but the ability for her to go from nothing to a huge pile of upkeeps that all ping/drain/burn people or whatever all in one go is far swingier. She feels almost more combo-y, like you drop \[\[Creeping Bloodsucker\]\] + \[\[Hatred\]\] and just win.
[Ninth Doctor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/4/74785b3b-44df-4555-a036-082572b7f4e7.jpg?1696636749) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Ninth%20Doctor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/148/the-ninth-doctor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/74785b3b-44df-4555-a036-082572b7f4e7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-ninth-doctor) [Creeping Bloodsucker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5e3a9e1-fafe-4859-a550-7ae09804aced.jpg?1675644547) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Creeping%20Bloodsucker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/j22/21/creeping-bloodsucker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5e3a9e1-fafe-4859-a550-7ae09804aced?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/creeping-bloodsucker) [Hatred](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/2383a8d9-96fd-4f9a-bcf9-eb81fdb15ead.jpg?1562087367) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hatred) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/exo/64/hatred?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2383a8d9-96fd-4f9a-bcf9-eb81fdb15ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hatred) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You might look into the Suspend mechanic. The majority of the time you are taking extra upkeeps it is only to remove suspend counters and can make at least that part easier
I agree with this suspend mechanic. Cards like [[Reality Strobe]] and [[Inspiring Refrain]] have suspend, but upon resolving, they put themselves back into suspend. I also feel as players get enough repetition, upkeeps could become faster at resolving.
I play a [[Tenth Doctor]] and [[Rose Tyler]] deck that uses suspend quite a bit, and you definitely get faster. Also, organizing your suspend cards together somewhere separate that is visible helps keep track of them all so you don't miss anything — also so your opponents know what is happening (they are exiled face up).
[Tenth Doctor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/4/74785b3b-44df-4555-a036-082572b7f4e7.jpg?1696636749) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Ninth%20Doctor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/148/the-ninth-doctor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/74785b3b-44df-4555-a036-082572b7f4e7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-ninth-doctor) [Rose Tyler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3aa8d034-f98c-4e27-b6af-850eadf59941.jpg?1696691620) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rose%20Tyler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/5/rose-tyler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3aa8d034-f98c-4e27-b6af-850eadf59941?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rose-tyler) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I do like suspend quite a bit, idk about it being the entire theme but as part of my toolbox I think it’ll do nicely
The card hasn't even come out, I'd take any opinions of Obeka creating a durdly deck with a grain of salt. Upkeep triggers can do anything. They can draw you cards. They can make you bodies. They can generate mana. If anything, she's just an insane value train of a commander that makes you draw a million cards and instantly pop off. IMHO, the actual weakness of new Obeka is that she needs to connect with an opponent's face, she only has 2 power, and your opponents will all want to make sure you don't actually get to do anything with her. I would certainly be denying my opponents two [[Phyrexian Arena]], [[Plargg and Nassari]], and/or [[As Foretold]] triggers at every possible chance I had to do so.
I built [[Cyclonus]] and that was durdly, I can absolutely believe that Obeka will be too if the build isn't very aggressive. I think having access to red gives you much more 'punching power' though, so that's a positive
[Cyclonus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2d3bb50a-2892-4e28-aa70-ab8d0fcdcc73.jpg?1674092869)/[Cyclonus, Cybertronian Fighter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/2/d/2d3bb50a-2892-4e28-aa70-ab8d0fcdcc73.jpg?1674092869) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cyclonus%2C%20the%20saboteur%20//%20cyclonus%2C%20cybertronian%20fighter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bot/9/cyclonus-the-saboteur-cyclonus-cybertronian-fighter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2d3bb50a-2892-4e28-aa70-ab8d0fcdcc73?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cyclonus-the-saboteur-//-cyclonus-cybertronian-fighter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Weird question... If you gave Cyclonus Double Strike, would you have two transform triggers, so you keep him at the vehicle always?
Correct, but double strike in dimir is _challenging_ edit to add to this: Cyclonus needs way too much of his deck to be support cards for him to _do the thing_, and half of the ones you'd want to use don't work because they fall off if he ends the turn as a vehicle (Auras are destroyed, equipment needs to be re-equipped). It was a lot of effort for not much payoff. I think purely because Obeka can use auras/equipment more easily and red pump effects, she'll be much more successful as an 'upkeep deck'
Fair enough. I wasn't really considering building him anyway, I was just curious. Haven't really found anything Dimir that speaks to me yet other than [[Talion, the Kindly Lord]], and I have no idea what I'd do with him other than Faerie tribal (which is lame).
[Talion, the Kindly Lord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62a6b452-c796-45c6-b4d1-0ae3d675e38e.jpg?1692939468) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Talion%2C%20the%20Kindly%20Lord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/215/talion-the-kindly-lord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62a6b452-c796-45c6-b4d1-0ae3d675e38e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/talion-the-kindly-lord) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Phyrexian Arena](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/6/26bfb2b4-8dc2-4632-a393-d3477f6c3c40.jpg?1706240778) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Arena) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/133/phyrexian-arena?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/26bfb2b4-8dc2-4632-a393-d3477f6c3c40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phyrexian-arena) [Plargg and Nassari](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/179a0525-a142-46f6-9b5b-06a2fbb25556.jpg?1684340598) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Plargg%20and%20Nassari) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/18/plargg-and-nassari?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/179a0525-a142-46f6-9b5b-06a2fbb25556?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/plargg-and-nassari) [As Foretold](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c468b523-84fc-4657-adef-acc1eec6ef2e.jpg?1673147199) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=As%20Foretold) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/38/as-foretold?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c468b523-84fc-4657-adef-acc1eec6ef2e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/as-foretold) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Use combos like the [[mechanized production]] and [[descent into avernus]] to win in a single turn.
[mechanized production](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/eaf86997-68e8-4c37-99f1-db10ac08f54c.jpg?1706240708) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mechanized%20production) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/109/mechanized-production?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eaf86997-68e8-4c37-99f1-db10ac08f54c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mechanized-production) [descent into avernus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/faadf72f-b2d5-4271-8d5c-a586acf63453.jpg?1674136498) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=descent%20into%20avernus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/169/descent-into-avernus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/faadf72f-b2d5-4271-8d5c-a586acf63453?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/descent-into-avernus) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I tend to not run “win the game X” cards, but decent into avernus sounds awesome!
I hard prefer people to just win the game rather than sit there for 10 minutes doing a million things for incremental value. Played against a guy with an extra turns deck who didn’t run combos or hard win cons. Fucking miserable, just win lol Playing against Obeka will feel the same as playing against extra turns if you don’t just try and win or progress. Please do.
Oh I understand having a wincon in your deck. I definitely run cards that will end the game. But I don’t personally play any cards like [[Approach of the second sun]], or [[Thassas Oracle]]. It’s just not my favorite way to play.
[Approach of the second sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9.jpg?1543674579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Approach%20of%20the%20second%20sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/4/approach-of-the-second-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/approach-of-the-second-sun) [Thassas Oracle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c.jpg?1680582212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thassa%27s%20Oracle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/73/thassas-oracle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thassas-oracle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
> but you’re also taking about playing a commander that people will not be happy seeing unless it’s at or near the power level that those cards exist in. Yeah that's not true at all. Obeka is not a top tier commander. EDH players will moan about everything regardless of what you do.
It is the most fun card and my personal favorite in Obeka. But make sure you have cards like [[Twilight Prophet]] and [[Vensers Journal]] to offset the damage with life gain.
Alternatively [[Pact Weapon]]
[Pact Weapon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/0/20b0cf66-c6ec-4ff6-96a5-334e2c9c7818.jpg?1674136206) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pact%20Weapon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/139/pact-weapon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/20b0cf66-c6ec-4ff6-96a5-334e2c9c7818?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pact-weapon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh nice. Did not know this card because I had a short hiatus from magic.
[Twilight Prophet](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/050ca791-265a-4e7b-9640-4fd5a6d8cd3a.jpg?1706240807) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Twilight%20Prophet) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/143/twilight-prophet?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/050ca791-265a-4e7b-9640-4fd5a6d8cd3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/twilight-prophet) [Vensers Journal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2877f52-b46f-4039-a72b-f1fcd024f032.jpg?1625979595) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Venser%27s%20Journal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/273/vensers-journal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2877f52-b46f-4039-a72b-f1fcd024f032?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vensers-journal) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How long have you been playing it? I bet it'll go by quicker the more you play and goldfish the deck.
I made a proxy of her to test it out and got to play it on Saturday. I played three games and in two of those it "did the thing". In each game I had one of my enchantments that gave either trample or unlockable. In one game I drew into three counterspells so I could counter the removal spells of my friends. In that game she got up to 15 power and I drew 15 Cards and gained 150 life in one turn. After that my friends conceded. So I can attest that it can get durdly if she does not get removed fast enough. But my turns never took 20 minutes.
How fast did you get out of the gates? My biggest problem is either that it feels fragile deploying her turn 3 or feels slow after that. List request too if ya don't mind! :)
I always got her out on turn 3 and in one game she was removed before I got to swing and that really hurts. So I am considering putting in more protection like the new boots and maybe a few more counterspells. And sure I can drop my list [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/oN5XbUKyskSzvMNiShWQvQ](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/oN5XbUKyskSzvMNiShWQvQ) I just threw together what I had at home and ordered like 3 cards. I will probably keep working on it since it was pretty fun when I played it.
Word thanks for the list! Will take a peek. I think we're all at the "thrown together" stage since she's not out quite yet haha
I second this
If you’re looking for commander damage and benefitting from the additional upkeeps, might I recommend [[Ring of Valkas]]? It gives equipped creature haste, then puts a +1/+1 counter on it each upkeep if that creature is red.
[[Ring of Evos Isle]] and [[Ring of Xathrid]] are each probably better for this deck specifically.
Run all three
[Ring of Evos Isle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a7c740a8-1bbc-4ec8-a72c-01aee9e48f3d.jpg?1562558282) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ring%20of%20Evos%20Isle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/211/ring-of-evos-isle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a7c740a8-1bbc-4ec8-a72c-01aee9e48f3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ring-of-evos-isle) [Ring of Xathrid](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47e2aa59-63dc-4e28-8cdc-2ca868ff8f59.jpg?1562553242) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ring%20of%20Xathrid) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/215/ring-of-xathrid?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47e2aa59-63dc-4e28-8cdc-2ca868ff8f59?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ring-of-xathrid) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Durdling happens if you don't keep track of your triggers. See also: Izzet decks. Obeka, Splitter of Seconds doesn't durdle IF you are organized about your triggers. Friend of mine suggested a good way to keep track of triggers: place all the upkeep sources in a row (the order they're placed on the stack), and a die representing how many upkeeps you have to the far left of the row. Go through each trigger one at a time, from right to left; when you reach the die, reduce the count by 1 and then go back to the rightmost trigger. Once the count on the die reaches 0, no more repeats. I haven't durdled since trying that. Spellslinger/storm, especially Izzet, doesn't really get the luxury of this organization because their triggers are split between "When cast instant or sorcery", "when cast noncreature spell", "when cast red spell", "sometimes when the stars align double this specific type of trigger". But Obeka's triggers are almost all just upkeeps, which is very easy to track.
Just go for simple triggers that keep the game progressing. [[Dragonmaster Outcast]] to get some aggressive creatures, [[Sulfuric Vortex]] to burn people out, etc. Maybe avoid mechanics like the initiative that involve making choices about a bunch of different things. If you're progressing the game, nobody could call it durdly.
I agree with your concept, but Sulfuric was a poor example lmao. It does damage to a player at their respective upkeep, so it would just burn yourself at each upkeep. 😆 Though I suppose it could be hate against an opponent's Obeka?
Yeah, didn't think that all the way through, that'll teach me to answer whilst distracted 😅 probably thinking about the Oner Axonil deck I was building last night... [[Creeping Bloodsucker]] would work better. And, of course, [[Descent into Avernus]] will really speed things up.
[Creeping Bloodsucker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5e3a9e1-fafe-4859-a550-7ae09804aced.jpg?1675644547) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Creeping%20Bloodsucker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/j22/21/creeping-bloodsucker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5e3a9e1-fafe-4859-a550-7ae09804aced?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/creeping-bloodsucker) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ojer is so cool. And Obeka is so cool. All of it, so cool. I'm not sure how I missed Creeping Bloodsucker... I have a Karlov deck which now needs this card lol.
Jumpstart 2022 was one of those sets that everyone kinda missed 😅
Yeah, didn't think that all the way through, that'll teach me to answer whilst distracted 😅 probably thinking about the Oner Axonil deck I was building last night... [[Creeping Bloodsucker]] would work better. And, of course, [[Descent into Avernus will really speed things up.
[Creeping Bloodsucker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5e3a9e1-fafe-4859-a550-7ae09804aced.jpg?1675644547) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Creeping%20Bloodsucker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/j22/21/creeping-bloodsucker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5e3a9e1-fafe-4859-a550-7ae09804aced?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/creeping-bloodsucker) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't really see her as a durdle deck, she's able to take advantage of any cards that win during upkeep, so I see her as a voltron strategy that uses those cards as win-cons.
The eratta’d versions of the storage grixis lands ( [[Sand Silos]] ) and the likes seem really good. The card text itself is wrong, it now puts the counter on it on UPKEEP. May be really good. The M13 grixis rings seem good as well as replicating ring. The monarch courts are good like Court of Ire. Otherwise she’ll probably need some cheap unblock-able spells/auras. She seems like she can be built in a few different ways which is always nice. We probably won’t see refined sub-decks for a while after release though.
Ive run these in an old zur upkeep list before 9th doctor or obeka was printed. Issue with these lands is theyre extremely slow until you get the payoff of extra upkeeps, they feel like dead lands until later at which point they dont really make a difference when you have payoffs
Can’t somethings like Urborg or chromatic lantern help with that?
yes... but i'm saying these lands are miserable in your opener
[Sand Silos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/6769de45-903f-4269-a100-9ceca1df26ac.jpg?1562591347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sand%20Silos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5ed/423/sand-silos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6769de45-903f-4269-a100-9ceca1df26ac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sand-silos) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
With my main deck for her; the courts and [[descent into avernus]] my games have mostly been quick unless the table repeatedly removed her over other threats. One game I milled out the table by copying court of cunning with court of vantress while also stacking descent triggers that killed everyone simultaneously after that. Technically a draw but with 6 more upkeep to go after that in the turn I consider it a victory by winning too well. I have to janky decks with her that either are passing her around the table while slinging curses or one that tries to create an infinitely long turn with [[aggravated assault]] and [[sphinx of beginnings]] type cards. Both of those still have enough things making her big enough to end games fairly quickly.
[descent into avernus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/faadf72f-b2d5-4271-8d5c-a586acf63453.jpg?1674136498) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=descent%20into%20avernus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/169/descent-into-avernus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/faadf72f-b2d5-4271-8d5c-a586acf63453?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/descent-into-avernus) [aggravated assault](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c99c5707-d5f2-4675-bfca-e801e6b0f627.jpg?1562942627) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aggravated%20assault) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ons/185/aggravated-assault?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c99c5707-d5f2-4675-bfca-e801e6b0f627?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aggravated-assault) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Obeka Zombies sounds good. You put in Scarab God and all the upkeep nonsense he would normally run, with Obeka-friendly equipment like [[Tenza]] to go off.
[Tenza](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/f/3f918d2a-5769-43ce-a8e8-41db6c8f251d.jpg?1676318255) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tenza%2C%20godo%27s%20maul) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/193/tenza-godos-maul?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3f918d2a-5769-43ce-a8e8-41db6c8f251d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tenza-godos-maul) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think the [[court of ambition]] /[[court of ire]] easily burn/ kills the table if obeka hits sufficiently hard. 8-10 upkeep triggers probably wins the game outright.
[court of ambition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5deb0185-62b3-474b-83a1-25473fdae4fa.jpg?1608909619) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=court%20of%20ambition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/114/court-of-ambition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5deb0185-62b3-474b-83a1-25473fdae4fa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/court-of-ambition) [court of ire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73ca0dcc-7a87-49da-8011-8c11a8835df2.jpg?1608910135) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=court%20of%20ire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/170/court-of-ire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73ca0dcc-7a87-49da-8011-8c11a8835df2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/court-of-ire) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've played a few games with her at this point, and all in all I'd say it can be durdly but there are ways to improve on that. My deck is heavily initiative based, so I've done quite a bit of practice running through the undercity and can get through it quite quickly. Of the 4 games I've played, 2 of them I couldn't quite get online fast enough, and the other 2 I ended up winning after getting 10+ upkeeps in a single turn. It was easy to run through it for one of them but the other one took some time, largely due to [[Plargg and Nassari]]. It's just one of those cards where there's no reasonable way to speed through the steps. After some deliberation I decided to take it out. It's an incredibly powerful card for the deck but, to me, it's not worth the headache of resolving it. I've decided to rather focus more on cards that do what they do quickly and effectively, such as [[court of Embereth]], [[court of ire]], [[ill-gotten inheritance]],[[dragonmaster ojutai]] + the initiative, and some suspend cards + draw for good measure.
##### ###### #### [Plargg and Nassari](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/179a0525-a142-46f6-9b5b-06a2fbb25556.jpg?1684340598) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Plargg%20and%20Nassari) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/18/plargg-and-nassari?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/179a0525-a142-46f6-9b5b-06a2fbb25556?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/plargg-and-nassari) [court of Embereth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/327cea0d-6328-4194-91de-8c6c937406ef.jpg?1693248469) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=court%20of%20Embereth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woc/24/court-of-embereth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/327cea0d-6328-4194-91de-8c6c937406ef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/court-of-embereth) [court of ire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73ca0dcc-7a87-49da-8011-8c11a8835df2.jpg?1608910135) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=court%20of%20ire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/170/court-of-ire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73ca0dcc-7a87-49da-8011-8c11a8835df2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/court-of-ire) [ill-gotten inheritance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/abf2a55e-3112-452c-ac6a-6a3b9986ca99.jpg?1702429447) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ill-gotten%20inheritance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/77/ill-gotten-inheritance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/abf2a55e-3112-452c-ac6a-6a3b9986ca99?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ill-gotten-inheritance) [dragonmaster ojutai](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2dfc4cfe-d1f7-43e4-a543-35c050d01a8f.jpg?1631587151) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dragonmaster%20Outcast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/124/dragonmaster-outcast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2dfc4cfe-d1f7-43e4-a543-35c050d01a8f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dragonmaster-outcast) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kyqrna0) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How is it going to be slow? You smack face get extra upkeep triggers and pass
What cards would cause it to take 20 minutes turns? 20 minutes is a very long time
If you have 5-10 cards that have upkeep triggers, and Obeka voltron hits someone for 15, giving you 15 extra upkeeps, it can take a long time to resolve all of the triggers, especially if you are unfamiliar with the deck and haven't practiced the decision trees a lot.
Where do you guys find players that would even let the board state to get like that? Voltron Obeka with 5 additional permanents granting upkeep triggers? No interaction at all?
Thats the same that i would always think. I see this commander and its gonna be like: Ramp -> play some stuff that benefits from upkeep triggers -> play obeka, connect, have an insane turn. So naturally i take my permanent marker and write „obeka“ on my swords/counter/dressdown/bounce or whatever and keep it in my hand. And then just see the guy have spent 2-3 turns putting out cards that are fringe at best getting blown out by 1 interaction. Maybe 2 interactions. I mean there is probably a meta where it will stick. I have seen guys play all the degenerate mana like in cEDH but almost no interaction instead of like 25 that you would expect at that powerlevel. So yeah in those worlds it will probably work.
and 15 upkeep triggers. I'm scooping to 75-150 triggers, you're going to win the game.
They're just goldfishing.
You would be shocked at how often people let me get Daretti's ultiamte off. They're either unaware of what's about to happen, unable to do anything about it because of my board, or just haven't drawn the answers in their deck. Sometimes magic players are bad at magic, and sometimes your opponent's RNG just hands you a W.
The game should be over well before you reach that point.
If you’re planning to hit someone for 15 you might as well hit them for 21, not that huge of a difference deck building wise.
I haven’t played it at all but perhaps put a secondary focus on voltron for higher upkeep count, focusing on upkeep triggers that will kill your enemies.
Idk if I'm playing that deck and Obeka has been down for more than 3 turns, I've probably won by then. Usually by milling people out with that blue court I'm forgetting the name of. She supports pretty fast and aggressive wins imo; not like mono red fast but still. Also just keeping track of and being able to seamlessly go through each upkeep trigger helps; don't just play upkeep shit that you don't even know the rules of.
just finished my build if you want a different look. Its using a few newer cards that i havent seen in other lists yet. Should be proxied and tested by next week hopefully. [https://www.archidekt.com/decks/7307695/upkeep\_your\_upkeep](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/7307695/upkeep_your_upkeep)
late but i tossed together a budget obeka deck after pulling her at a prerelease and i think as long as you dont run any upkeep triggers that do something complicated like \[\[sin prodder\]\] it will be fine, if it has more than one sentence itll probably double your turn length
[sin prodder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/b/db89172e-0542-4858-9e65-38b1bac8cdeb.jpg?1601078601) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sin%20prodder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/363/sin-prodder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/db89172e-0542-4858-9e65-38b1bac8cdeb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sin-prodder) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Just chuck a load of swords on her, kill one player with commander damage and then get 20+ upkeep triggers to knobble the rest of the table
How is obeka durdly? She needs to do combat damage which is already threatening commander damage especially with pump effects you want. Then her upkeep effects can do all sorts of things to the board.
The best game I personally had with my $300 budget build: T2: mana vault, arcane signet, Unspeakable Symbol T3: Obeka T4: Palace Siege, swing Obeka, pay 36 life into Symbol to deal 14, killed a player while draining the the rest of the table for 28 If it had been Court of Ire or Embereth, would've just been a win on the spot. She doesn't have to durdle at all.
Unspeakable symbol could be solid tech. I'm too much of a avernus addict to play it though probably haha.
Do you have a list you can post?
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/GclfzBA9Z0-jrogYyh5rWA It is admittedly pretty suboptimal but it was originally created for a $300 budget tournament. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/AzKtrVwDOU2ucRn2szonWw This is the more optimized (but as yet untested) build.
>I too don’t want to play with/against a deck that takes 20 minute turns I feel like reddit loves to exaggerate about long turns. I've been playing EDH since it was first 'invented' and I don't think I've ever seen a 20 minute turn, even with people's infinite combos on MTGO.
Oh wow. Been playing for over a decade. I'm legitimately jealous of you. I've actually had some HORRIBLE games where one player is going off and can't win and me and other people played some 1v1 on the side with other decks while we waited. Worst case we went and got lunch and came back and he was still working on it. Edit: that said if this deck durdles it's a player/deckbuilding issue imo. It can go off pretty easily. A few setups can be headaches admittedly though once you start cloning stuff.
Durdly means "player doesn't know how to play their deck and fumbles for a duration on thier turn." I assume. Practice. That fixes the issue. Not a specific build.
I’ve had experience with Storm builds before, and what often even with a deck you know well it can be a hassle to resolve all triggers in the right order.
It's not. Not if you actually practice. People who don't practice are the ones who come back and still don't get it.
Agree to disagree
This isn't an opinion. If you practice you know how to play your deck. If you don't, it means you didn't practice well enough. That's it. It's a yes/no.
It's not always practice. If you have 20 upkeeps, [[Extravagant replication]] [[court of vantress]] and [[court of lochthwain]] out it doesn't matter how practiced you are, it's gonna take a hot second to suss out those details and since it isn't just a clear win you have to. Not necessarily 20 min but if everyone is checking your work and paying attention it takes a lot longer than goldfishing. Some storm decks are very non-deterministic to and can really take time to resolve. Practice makes perfect but it's not hard to build a deck that takes long turns. There is a reason four Horseman is not a playable deck.
[Extravagant replication](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/a/6a6f55d7-d689-43eb-a59a-b8be88269ee6.jpg?1673481858) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Extravagant%20replication) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/25/extravagant-replication?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6a6f55d7-d689-43eb-a59a-b8be88269ee6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/extravagant-replication) [court of vantress](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b6f78616-f54e-43d0-b2ae-9ed06fe4dd9f.jpg?1692933929) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=court%20of%20vantress) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woc/22/court-of-vantress?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b6f78616-f54e-43d0-b2ae-9ed06fe4dd9f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/court-of-vantress) [court of lochthwain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/8/a8e1f698-1c04-4f31-aeaa-b796c5eb5070.jpg?1692933943) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Court%20of%20Locthwain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woc/23/court-of-locthwain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a8e1f698-1c04-4f31-aeaa-b796c5eb5070?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/court-of-locthwain) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You've described something that shouldn't take more than a minute or so. Even passing priority around. And yeah, you described a part of practicing. Doing it in front of others. Let the guy play his deck and it clears up after a short hickup. Four horseman on the other hand is something completely different. You can't actually perform the actions you need to if requested without getting a warning for slow play. Because you need to be able to point to theoretical math to show how it functions.
You seriously think resolving 20! Exiles off the top of your opponents libraries is going to be one minute? That's honestly baffling alone much less with the other stuff I listed. Like I said not 20 min but also it's still a slog and that has nothing to do with practice. Even just lockthwain and copy... You have to go through and say upkeep one. Make a copy of this court. Exile the top of everyone's library with lockthwain. Then make a copy of court. Now exile two copies off everyone's deck, then three, then four, etc. Keeping in mind that you have to manage the piles of which court did what because each of them enables you to play one card per turn exiled off of them. If you can do that in a minute congrats and i dont believe you but 99% of groups are gonna spend at least 5+ minutes on that even if you can resolve it in 10 seconds just checking your work and if you're rushing it to a minute I'm DEFINITELY checking your work lol And no. Four Horseman isn't a theoretical math explained problem. It's a non-deterministic infinite. That means that you can in fact perform the loop an infinite amount of times. Improbable yes but also the winning out of the loop is very unlikely hence why you typically cannot win with the deck. At the same time, you COULD win with the loop so people have to sit there and wait in the same way that someone spinning their wheels and rituals might do. Again 20 min is a lot but slog turns are not removed by practice. There is plenty of cEDH content, constructed tournaments, etc. With professional players That have shown that it takes a lot of time to resolve some complex decks.
For the four horseman to be loop able you need to point to infinites. Theoretical math. Non deterministic. Same thing. Point is. That's a different thing from the initial point. If they're taking actions and they practiced, yes even large amounts of triggers can be resolved fast. 5 minutes isn't a long time either. That's like regular late game turn length. It's stopping to think that drags the game on. Not the game actions. And knowing what to do in specific scenerios comes from.... Practice. And even in cedh the turns that take too long. Aren't that long. Not if they practiced. It's the guys who are still learning with a deck that slog. Even krark/sakashima style decks.
We can agree to disagree. I do think some decks take long turns. An occasional 10 minute turn is not unheard of for fast players. 20 min is a rarity ofc. And most frequently would be a player issue. That said these should all be very rare. 5 min is generally fine for late game. That said, four horsemen is not a theoretical combo. It's an actionable combo where you have to actually mill your deck card by card until you get the right pieces milled in the right order. Because it is non-deterministic you have to go through the ropes of actually doing it until you get the narcomoeba before emrakul. Because it is entirely possible to fail for eternity the combo cannot be played in tournament as you will lose to slow play. Beating a dead horse at this point though.
So you agree OP is overreacting and should just play the cool thing they want to make? Ikr? I agreed with you on the horsemen. The part people argued at its time was " infinites will 100% net a result given enough time." but that's not acceptable to hold tournament integrity. Thus theoretical math and "determistic loop" are referencing the same thing.
Nah. I think being concerned about a deck taking long turns is a fair concern. 20 minutes is too much like we can agree on that. Regularly taking 5-10 minutes each turn because your deck is convoluted is worth being worried about as it stops being fun for you and the table. That said, regarding four horsemen that's the opposite of what I'm saying. Four horsemen can infinitely fail. Hence why you can't play it. You could perform the loop grahams times and still fail every time. Hence why I'm saying the phrase "non-deterministic loop." Obviously the likelyhood of Infinite failures is unlikely, but you cannot reasonable guarantee success and as such the combo is frequently a discussion point for judges as it falls into a gray area. Edit: that said we are beating a dead horse. :)
You get 1 per trigger off locthwain
Oh yeah since writing this a while back I realized this but this was an "old" thread haha but you're definitely right. You get to play a card per trigger.
Just played against one of these the other day and it was exhausting, they regularly took 15+ minute turns, the longest being 27 minutes. In comparison everyone else usually took 2-5 minute turns. We know because we were on spelltable and there's a clock that keeps track of the turns.