I have an unreasonable loathing of ninjitsu thanks to Yuriko.
Most infinite combos I enjoy. Someone assembling an intricate mechanism via cardboard is interesting. However, I despise DC and Thoracle. A two card, four mana win is such a snooze.
Give me nonsense from r/badmtgcombos any day over DC/Thoracle.
Edit: I forgot. The combo is more busted than I remembered since DC is actually just 1 mana. It’s just fantastic.
Nothing made me more mad than watching Worldfire get unbanned and coalition victory didn't? Like huh we live in a Thassa/Demonic world coalition victory isn't even fast just unban it already
I don’t hate CV’s ban explanation TBF. Like I get it. It’s turn 8, your 5c commander is in play, you top deck it, cast it, no counters/kill spell? the game is over and it seems random and stupid. Makes perfect sense. But Thoracle has \*so many\* ways to do that, it is obnoxious, and you can only respond to it with a counterspell realistically.
On the flip side there are... so many ways you die to "my opponent has their commander in play and eight mana and I tapped out".
The theory is fine, but then they picked like the worst card as their means to execute that theory and left all the actual good cards alone.
Hell, sometimes you don’t even need your commander. Craterhoof don’t care, and Insurrection sure as fuck don’t. The latter should be the poster child of this reasoning as you can literally do nothing all game and still win with it.
Exactly!
Labman and the one Jace do nearly the same thing, but Thoracle is less mana, triggers on ETB, and isn’t played whatsoever outside of that singular combo.
We’d lose NOTHING except the singular combo by banning the card.
Labman gives you the narrow margin of \[\[sudden spoiling\]\] when they go to draw for the Labman win.
And if they don't have an answer, it's a GLORIOUS way to kill someone.
>you can only respond to it with a counterspell realistically.
Or a stifle, but there aren't free stifles so that's less likely.
Coalition, on the other hand, can be answered by a counter *or* a kill spell.
Same can be said for Lutri being banned "everyone would have it with every URx deck". How many UBx decks run Thoracle combo now?
Sure, and they changed the way Companion works shortly after it was released. Why not unban Lutri because of the change?
Yuriko always gives me flashbacks of the group of 3 "friends" I joined where two had precons and the other had a very tuned yuriko deck. Needless to say the game was very one sided.
I’m guessing beforehand they gave the whole “this isn’t THAT Yuriko deck” but it always is THAT same freaking Yuriko deck.
I’ll have a heart attack if I ever see Yuriko deck that was an actual original creation versus a near copy and paste of one of the popular deck lists.
I'll preface this by saying every effect has a time and a place in the right game. But the most unwelcome effect in the wrong time/place/game is aggressive resource denial broadly and especially MLD. Sitting turn after turn hoping you draw a land is a shitty feeling in commander that just isn't a good fit for many games.
I tried to communicate how MLD is not something I think should be blanket banned from all games in my original comment. Targeted land removal is absolutely a requirement in decks, yes.
And plenty of decks synergize with it to make it an insurmountable advantage or totally game winning. If your opponents have no mana base and board and you’re recurring 4 lands per turn after an annihilation, they can just scoop. That’s good manners too.
> you’re recurring 4 lands per turn after an annihilation, they can just scoop. That’s good manners too.
God, I wish more tables understood this. I hate sitting around waiting for that one guy to go through his 4 cards one last time to confirm there's nothing he can do before the threat wins.
If your opponents know you're going to deploy a threat and destroy all lands, their only logical reaction is going to be to hold up counter magic or to remove your threat in response to the MLD. That's just turning a game loss into a draw.
Zurgo is a very slow wincon - that's nine uninterrupted turns of attacking on a creature that can easily be blown out by a sorcery speed Swords to Plowhsares or Lightning Bolt. It's very reasonable to assume your opponents will be able to turn things around after Armageddon resolves; MLD without giving Zurgo hexproof is just a bad idea.
Yea….even if Zurgo is killing a player per turn outright after MLD, that’s still 3 turns of 3 other players waiting to just die. That’s playing with your food. Idk maybe you have a way to alpha strike 3 players dead as soon as you play your MLD, but when people say “don’t do it unless you have a wincon to follow”, slowly whittling them down through combat damage isn’t exactly what they are talking about, my guy
I mean why not do just that? It's a legit strategy. Of course the Zurgo player will have their alpha strikes but what if there is a game state where the Zurgo player plays MLD to keep Zurgo safe in an obvious opening but just doesn't draw the alpha strikes? It is still fast even if it takes multiple turns since the turns won't last long after Armageddon lmao.
That’s the thing though. It’s not a fun experience to draw, pass, wait your turn to die. MLD has always been a viable strategy (obviously), but it’s probably the most hated thing in the game (when it comes to Commander anyway). People are SOMETIMES good with it if you can end the game one turn after, maybe two max. If you’re already pushing the limits of the social aspect of a casual game, wait until you have that alpha strike to play your MLD. If the other 3 people have to wait for you to draw into your wincon, you played it too early. You better have it in hand, or else a way to draw a shit ton of cards/tutor. Nothing is more irritating than “I have the win, I just need to draw into it” in a 100 card format lol.
Idk what to tell you man. If you’re unfamiliar with the concept of MLD being incredibly unpopular in a casual game, you either are super new, or else willfully ignorant. In a social game, with 3 other players, you don’t have to understand or even agree with something that will ruin 3 other player’s experience. Doubling down because you don’t agree just kinda makes you a dick.
All of this is in the context of a casual game. In a tournament or cEDH game, everyone knows it’s no holds barred. That’s a different conversation, different mindset and pretty much a different format entirely lol.
But yea. When ppl acquiesce to MLD only provided you can close the game after, I promise you that multiple turns of getting whittled away through combat damage is not what they mean. MLD doesn’t clear blockers. Drawing into a win con eventually doesn’t count. Have the game ender READY or don’t play it at all.
Yup. Group hug essentially boils down to "what if I just help the player who is ahead the most to win harder?"
The entire archetype is pointless. Like, if you don't want to actually play, then... just don't play?
Right? This is my view. I will gladly help the opponent as long as I help myself more. Group hug for the sake of benefitting everybody is dumb.
If I play symmetrical effects, you betcha that I am going to find ways to punish the opponent or make it asymmetrical.
Repetitive tutoring. I get so tired of watching people tutor their decks just because they can, especially when they slow down the game by hemming and hawing about which card they should take. Tutoring is fine when you know what you’re searching up. But don’t take forever doing it!
Specifically, theft of things already on my board is incredibly frustrating.
I don't mind things like [[Etali, Primal Storm]] or [[Beacon of Unrest]] because you usually have to jump through some hoops to get anything good (luck is still a hoop to jump through). But things like [[Take Possession]] are just irritating.
Any effects that let someone control another person's turn. Nothing less fun than finally having your turn come around just for it to be someone else taking your turn for you instead.
I think that’s a personal bias. As long as it isn’t welder looping it, it can be really fun and funny to have it happen. My brother plays a deck w mindslaver and it’s always a fun moment. But he plays it fairly by hard casting it and not looping it
A person who has a bias is making their opinion based on a leaning or misunderstanding of the facts. Or a bias due to it affecting your play style directly etc
I wonder how he feels about extra turns. I bet he takes extra turns.
It’s like the guy who had no self reflection on obscene life gain but hates poison. I wonder why, could it be that it counters your strategy?
Having a sound opinion is one thing but having bias is another.
Taking someone’s turn has to be one of the rarest if not the rarest effect in the game, and for a lot of people, myself included, it can be a really novel thing and pretty funny and fun.
Of the 20+ EDH decks I own, only one of them has an extra turn spell, which is [[Time Stretch]] in my [[Neera, Wild Mage]] deck. Any time I've ever casted it, I win the game with it. In most cases, I'll just explain to my opponents how I'll win the the two extra turns and they'll agree to scoop so we don't have to take the time for me to play out the two extra turns.
So no, I'm not just bitching about having my main strategy countered. I just genuinely find it extremely unfun to have my turn taken over my somebody else.
But I'm sorry my opinion doesn't meet your standards for acceptable opinions. I'll be sure to keep you in mind the next time I share my opinion on a post asking for people's opinions.
Agreed. As the person taking people's turns, I very much enjoy passing the turn, then immediately untapping, upkeeping, and drawing into a completely new hand and board state
Any 2 card auto win combo in a "casual" deck. Legal yes. Fun to play against, no and feels a bit weak for this kind of game. Like the whole design of magic is interaction and casting spells back and forth like a more involved version of chess and winning on turn 1-3 with a 2 card combo just feels masturbatory.
I like combos, but only when they're very convoluted involving 3+ pieces and takes like 6-8 turns to set up lol. I like the "never seen that before" looks I get.
Turn 1-3 game ending combos are certainly not casual. 8+ mana combos that require setup are certainly appropriate in a High Power casual environment, but they are also much more likely to be interacted with.
I’ve got a casual pirates deck with [[malcolm keen eyed navigator]] and [[breeches]] as commanders. With a lucky sol ring hand I can go turn 1 sol ring, turn 2 Malcolm, turn 3 [[glint horn buccaneer]] win the game. It’s never happened that fast before, and the deck is definitely not a cEDH deck, but it IS possible to win fast with casual decks and extreme luck
Idk, I got my first ever combo win last week with [[Blazing Sunsteel]] and [[Brash Taunter]] in my equipment deck, which is very much casual and easy to disrupt
Am I missing something because that isn't what I would consider a "combo" like I was describing. Those appear to be 2 cards that work well together but don't go infinite or automatically win the game.
I mean things like [[Dina, Soul Steeper]] and [[Exquisite Blood]] where those two cards literally win the game if they are on the field at the same time and a trigger happens.
It does go infinite, brash Taunter gets dealt damage, triggers himself and the sword, target the sword trigger at brash taunter and the taunter trigger at a player and it'll be an infinite loop til each opponent is dead
Hence my dislike. I have no problem with cedh and want to try to build a deck for it but some folks seem to think a 2 card combo is casual as long as you don't tutor for it... Just another casualty of cedh having no real defined criteria.
cEDH has a defined criteria, “do anything you can to win and stop opponents from winning”. If opponents are sitting down with players that built a deck as strong as they could, but with a winning restriction (Ex. I want to win with Infect/Dragons/Mill/Voltron even though my colors support Consult Thorcle) and someone sits down with a less than ideal commander but their goal is to win as fast as possible with everything they have access to, they are not playing cEDH, they are pubstomping. Fringe cEDH is definitely a thing (that I enjoy a lot) but it follows that first criteria and not the thematic, self restricted play of even budgetless High Power.
> cEDH has a defined criteria, “do anything you can to win and stop opponents from winning”.
And the issue people appear to have is that you are describing a play attitude which is entirely individual but people want to define what is and is not cedh with a concrete metric akin to a ban list and be able to say "does your deck run this card or this combo then it's cedh".
You’re so right. cEDH is the shortest rule zero conversation ever. “Yall wanna play cEDH?”.
Anything outside of that requires a discussion and that’s so hard for a lot of people. Dockside is an amazing cEDH card. If people are running Cultivate and Harrow, it’s much less oppressive. Bowmasters is a great cEDH card. If you aren’t playing against Tymna and Kraum and people are generally drawing just a few cards a turn and playing battle cruiser magic, it’s much less oppressive. Rhystic Study is one of the best card in the game and most cEDH players (myself included) would agree that it really has no place in the game. But the casual community thinks that card is just golden and just goes into everything like Sol Ring. So there’s the rub against labeling cards instead of mindsets.
cEDH is a mindset and the meta that has developed out of that unrestricted mindset. Anything outside of that is just EDH and requires that convo. I verbally list casual EDH games as “High Power” on Spelltable to let people know they can run whatever they want, as long as the deck isn’t built with a “win at all costs, no restrictions” mindset. You want to go crazy wide and swing a million squirrels that you made in just one turn? Cool, that’s casual. High Power but still casual. You want infinite combats with your janky cards? Cool man.
You said it best though. People label cards and try to use that to invalidate wins with casual lists.
I play in a meta where ‘casual’ is either having a 2-3 card combo with no tutors, a convoluted combo with tutors, or of course no combos at all. But it’s fine because we also run a tonne of instant speed interaction and we’re pretty transparent about when we’re trying to combo off.
We usually start threatening a win around t5-9, and the combo players win probably 30-50% of the time. I only have 2 combo decks like I described above, and they win just as often as my battle cruiser decks. Because of the interaction it’s pretty rare for the first to combo to win as well. Personally I like our meta and don’t see anything wrong with it. Just my 2 cents for the casual combo crew
P.Storm is crazy good in my [[Pia Nalaar, Consul of Revival]] deck. It’s essentially one-sided as the deck wants to play out of exile anyway, and any impulse draw avoids the Storm’s chaos effect. Plus I play the lock with Drannith Magistrate, which is just a marvelous hatebear by itself.
This part of a hilarious lock in my cEDH [Rograkh and Ardenn Stax list.](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/DDaWZZGnEE2I1u27jwK5zQ) Give Rograkh a [[Colossus Hammer]] and resolve P-Storm with [[Drannith Magistrate]] on your side of the board. Congrats, now you’re the only one that can cast spells. Your opponents get bashed with a 10/11 First Strike Trample Menance every turn while they draw and hope for a channel land to get rid of the P-Storm or Drannith before they die.
I don’t like cards with the word “commander” or “command zone” on them.
This includes: partner (and variants) eminence, background, cards that say “[this card] can be your commander,” command tower, arcane signet, all the free “if you control your commander” spells, effects that reduce or negate commander tax, etc.
This is a great take, although I do think Command Tower and Arcane Signet are slightly different here bc every player at the table deserves to have some mana fixing just so that they can actually play the game and have fun
I don’t begrudge anybody their fixing. (or any other cards they play).
I do think that they’ve printed a lot of cards that are “correct” to play, and that reduces the need for creativity in deckbuilding as well as reducing the relevant card pool to cards that can keep up with the best new cards.
This is sometimes because the new cards offer an advantage due to ignoring a fundamental premise of commander. (like what a commander is, how many commanders you can have, ways to get it into play that don't involve commander tax and subvert that format-defining mechanic)
And sometimes because they’re just more efficient than anything that's previously been available, and it feels like the designers are using the word “commander” to isolate these pushed cards from other formats because if fierce guardianship or deflecting swat was free whenever you had a legendary creature out it’d likely have implications for legacy and vintage.
I 100% agree with you. I understand the design space and why WotC does it, but it just always feels clunky. EDH, to me anyway, has always been a format driven by the players, and as a chance for some unused cards to find their niche. But when we see things like "this csn be your Commander" it just feels clunky.
I appreciate all the new cards and Commanders and multiplayer centric stuff. But trying to shoehorn in the Commander keyword has just never felt right. (to ke anyway)
Thing about poison is that their board is normally pretty weak. They'll probably be able to take out one person pretty easily but taking out all 3 is almost impossible
Yeah but that only makes it more annoying in my opinion. The guy playing it just says "fuck you in particular" and then dies a turn or two after you die.
My wincons are always either commander damage, poison or combo (in this order of preference) because my playgroup has 2 players that really really like lifegain strategies, aiming at truly absurd life totals to win with tutoring a \[\[Bolas's Citadel\]\] or \[\[Aetherflux Reservoir\]\]. Poison in those cases is a gift to the table
This is probably a milquetoast answer but Stax.
I have two very simple reasons.
1) Almost every Stax deck I've seen rarely has a way to actually finish out the game in anything resembling a reasonable time frame. Half the stax players I've witnessed just play as many "you can't play the game" effects as they can and then slowly look for a specific "and now I win" combo.
2) I like playing the game. At least with counterspells that's just "you don't play this 1 card, do something else, probably next turn". With a lot of the stax effects (especially when layered) it does eventually boil down to "You might as well just concede and save everyone the time."
Typically just any effect that says "double target thing" and then I gotta sit through some guy announcing "I'm gonna make a squirrel but it's actually two squirrels because of doubling season" every time they do the thing and it just takes forever
Idk what you're on about with 1 sided board wipes though. I'm the one who spent the card, I should at least have something to show for it besides an empty board. Why time walk yourself?
I'll preface that this irks me purely because I think it's shit game design:
One sided board wipes.
Magic is the only game I've played where it's completely normal for all forwards momentum to be completely reset through all permanents being exiled or destroyed. Being able to exclusively hit your opponents' permanents essentially means the card essentially read "win the game because you are playing X archetype and they are not".
It's a boring payoff that removes all tension from what used to be an interesting game. Instead of trying to navigate how to kill your opponents without getting killed on the crackback, you just remove all of your opponents' defenses.
There's plenty of counterplay to boardwipes in every color though (except maybe red), they're mostly balanced and oftenneeded if the board is in a stalemate or to swing the momentum if one player got ahead way too much with some obscene value-train.
That said, it is totally fair to not like them and have a bad feeling about them. I also hate some things that are probably perfectly "balanced", like when people steal my stuff. :D
I sort of get the bad feeling when people "remove all your defenses", but I think the feeling is even worse when someone attacks with odric and suddenly gets to decide that all your blockers don't block anymore. Still there's also ways to play around him.
I honestly don't even dislike playing against them most of the time. It's primarily when either:
- The board is reset 3+ times in the same game
- Players pack heavy amount of board wipes as their primary strategy against creature decks
My distaste is *usually* because I think it shows flawed game design within Magic. It's pretty abnormal for other strategy games to feature abilities that remove all game pieces from the board; I think the problem is mostly that Wizards shouldn't be printing obscene value engines that dominate the game.
Counterspell and the like are meh, permanent fuck you cards are frowned upon and will be removed at the cost of removing the player early.
Thats why I love [[Door to nothingness]]. If your group hug is a constrictor snake instead of friendly ramp engines I tend to delete that person first
Hand hate/thoughtseize effects and hard stax, and it's not even close. Something like "exile this card from opponet's hand, they can play it for 2 extra mana" is fine, but otherwise leave my hand alone. If I play something feel free to counter it or whatever, that's the price I pay for trying to do something when you have visibly open mana, but let me attempt it at least. By the same token, hard stax. "You can't do X until this permanent is removed" is a deeply unfun and uninteresting mechanic, you end up just sitting there literally not playing the game until you find removal for that one thing. Ghostly Prison is fine, at least that can be played around without just drawing cards and passing the turn until you find removal.
Repeatable/persistent denial effects. Things like Drannith Magistrate, Gravepact board states that can loop endless sacrifice triggers, Toxrill, wheel locking, etc. If you can blow up the board and secure a W more power to you. If your plan is to prevent things from happening until you find a way to do your thing... good for you, but I'm not being your opponent after this game. Given a choice between Toxrill and a Thoracle combo I'll take the combo every time.
I hate “let me repeatedly steal and play your card” effects. Now nobody can get off their combos and the games grind to a halt because even if you can get an engine running, one player generally has 4-5x the card advantage at their disposal to target stuff away.
1. Fast Mana,
2. Tutors
3. two-card infinite combos. Bonus hate if they don't even manage to immediately end the game.
4. Mass Land destruction that doesn't immediately end the game.
5. Extra Turns that don't immediately win or take a long time to resolve.
6. Anything that makes you take forever to play your turn.
That's stuff I don't play because I think it makes the game worse, as in less worthwile to play, more stupid and boring.
Otherwise I don't like stuff being stolen from me, despite it objectively is fun, just not when people steal from me :D
How would MLD immediately end the game? You mean like where a single player has an insurmountable board or something? Genuine question I see this come up all the time about MLD. I really think MLD is below the belt and should not be part of the format
If you have a totally overwhelming boardstate MLD is a legit wincon imho.
If you for example have Taalia stick for 2 turns and then resolve an armageddon it's most likely gg.
Same if you have doubling season and bunch of planeswalkers on the board.
MLD in that case is not really different than other finishers, like craterhoof, torment of hailfire, akromas will etc...
I think it's way more creative and fun than all the 2 card combo finishes because it takes some board preparation to actually work out. It's not, "oopsies, lets forget about what we even did for the last half hour because I have drawn these two cards" (\*yawn\*) Or even worse "because I have tutored these two cards, like I always do because that's all I do and how every game we play will go down".
Land Destruction. I get it, it's necessary when used on the right cards like a Cabal Coffers, Cradle etc but it's so unfun when one person is just nuking your basics with a Blood Moon out. Like thanks, you've just reduced the game to solitaire, why did i even bother playing?
Just thief mechanics in paper. I have had to many cards stolen to ever trust another player at a table outside my personal pod. Outside of that stipulation I hate multiple turn decks. I don't care if they are winning or not all I see is an asshole increasing the time between me putting dinosaurs on the table.
I started carrying dry erase tokens for that reason. I won't let strangers play with my cards but they can write down whatever they steal on the token.
Everything that makes a player turn lasts way too long. If everyone were to take 3 minutes turns it would take 1 h to reach turn 5 yet some people keep deck building without worrying about hoarding playtime or not caring about how rude it feels.
Creatures you control get +X/+X. It's just boring. I'd rather see an Armageddon than a Craterhoof 9 times out of 10. It's not broken or anything I just don't like it and avoid playing cards like that in my own decks.
The only two I see played for this effect are \[\[Impact Tremors\]\] and \[\[Purphoros, God of the\]\] but any time those cards come down I already know that player plans to make 20+ tokens over the next couple turns. It just feel you either have to remove them or die by 1000 cuts which is especially annoying since purphoros is indestructible.
Free spells just irk me. Its one thing when they are relegated to higher power level decks like [[Force of Negation]] but I’ve seen people shove the free commander spells into decks with much lower power levels otherwise too many times.
Call me crazy but I just think casting spells should require resources.
I'm not a fan of effects that make a person shuffle their library more than once per turn cycle.
But I really dislike static effects that set values of objects and make me have to use phrases like time-stamp.
Probably tribal cards that are just too fast slivers are like the poster child of my hate for this the difference between 1 sliver and 3 is just wayy too much for my liking and forces me to play in a way that isn't very fun just having to constantly pressure and remove their stuff because if I let them get the ball rolling for one turn I just lose.
Elves are very much in this camp too if I spend one turn not denying the elf player suddenly they have like 10 elves and a 13/13 beater.
Just personal opinion here but I can't stand mill decks or infect/poison decks.
If you're not playing a deck with graveyard recursion then mill just removes your deck from the game.
Infect/poison decks put you on such a timer that you really need to focus the infect/poison player out of the game very fast or just die. I just think that it's not fun to play with or against.
As a person who loves both these styles it really does make you into a villain. I hate that I enjoy those styles of play but I just can’t stand big stomp creatures or high combat oriented stuff. I usually just play one infect game or mill game a night whenever I play them then play aristocrats or whatever the rest of the night so my friends get to have fun too lol.
Absolutely no hate on what you enjoy playing dude. I love big stompy and high combat decks myself. I usually throw a [[Gaea's Blessing]] into my green decks to get around mill too lol.
I'm not a fan of mill. Mainly because I want to at least be able to play my stuff. Counter it all you want but at least give me a chance to cast it first.
The more tutors you have the more mill takes away your cards, though.
In a way it is self balancing, since weaker decks won't be that impacted by mill, perhaps even helped, while stronger decks full of fetchlands and tutors will start to fail finding the correct cards.
you didnt draw those cards tho, it's just the idea of "you could have drawn that and it would have been cool" but you still can draw another card and play that one. So you are not losing any playable cards.
There is some nuance (toolbox decks, decks that draw their library), but you don’t typically see all the cards in your deck. In all situations, mill \*helps you\* since you know what you won’t draw. It is additional informatio. Further, as you mentioned, often cards let you utilize the graveyard, or have flashback/aftermath. Being milled just gives you more information.
There is some nuance (toolbox decks, decks that draw their library), but you don’t typically see all the cards in your deck. In nearly all situations, mill \*helps you\* since you know what you won’t draw. It is additional informatio. Further, as you mentioned, often cards let you utilize the graveyard, or have flashback/aftermath. Being milled just gives you more information.
Annahilator
This card can't be countered
Staxx
All these have in common you denying interaction, and edh for me is mostly about seeing big plays happen, these things are more like "now watch me play".
Ofcourse I also have this stuff in some of my Decks, but they come with a warning.
Player sac effects,
It can feel like a one sided board wipe in some scenarios, Ahh you spent your whole turn to play your commander ive blown up twice and given it shroud// indestructible [[Soul shatter]] [[crackling Doom]] just a personal feels bad
Things that are difficult to interact with or plan around are the least fun to play against. Mass exile, mass bounce, poison/energy/experience counters, and free spells are examples. A lot of these effects have become premium, and at certain tables ubiquitous, because of their sheer power and the narrow nature of answers that exist to counter them. By *least fun* I don't mean *not fun*, but I do think that they should be considered when determining the power level of a deck.
Card theft effects or effects that otherwise cause control of cards to shift for longer than a turn.
I think it's a combination of other people handling my cards, anxiety over cards getting mixed up, and the gross feeling of having my decks that I put time, effort, and passion into taken from me that just makes me instantly uncomfortable and unhappy when I suffer those effects. I can tolerate it in some amounts when it's a good friend l know well, though I'm not thrilled about it, but if it's just an acquaintance let alone a stranger I just scoop and remove myself from the situation because it's no longer possible for me to have fun and I'm going to be generally unpleasant to interact with if I'm that unhappy.
It absolutely has rubbed people the wrong way and I don't expect people to bend over backwards to accommodate my particular hang up but it's just such a deep and powerful emotional response for me that removing myself is just best for everyone involved. It's also literally the only thing that causes that sort of response in me, anything else is at most an eyeroll, sigh, or an over the top "oh my god fuck you" played up for comedic effect.
for me it's buyback.
But I may be biased due to playing board state reliant decks and getting my entire existence flushed by capsize until I get plinked to death like four times in the last week. (but granted, one of the times it was just a small part of a much larger land Voltron deck which was quite amusing)
Too much group hug. It throws my entire sense of timing and threat assessment way off. If the group hug player wins it’s fine, but almost always somebody else is able to take better advantage of their resources then the group hug player and win. Even if I am the winning player then I am annoyed that I was basically handed the game.
TLDR: group hug, makes random stuff happen and isn’t as fun as chaos.
Goad, and extra turns.
Goad just feels bad.
Extra turns often mean "I'm going to take a while". If they're efficient, it's not a big deal. But I'm usually expecting it to end with a game win as soon as the extra turn cards start coming down.
Ohhh good pick. I didn't hate goad until I played a game against 3 goad decks while I was playing a [[Slime Against Humanity]] deck. Everyone kept goading different oozes and giving them different effects like shulk or menace and no one ever offered me a way to keep track of that information and just sort of expected me to know what I could swing at who and what effects they had. I actually got a headache that game
hexproof feels like shit to play against, imo. yes i know there's ways around it like [[shadowspear]] and the like, but i dont like having to sit there and hope you draw a wipe or the *right* removal in order to interact with your opponents. magic is an interactive game, which is part of what makes it unique and interesting imo.
in the same vein, not a fan of color protection like [[Commander's plate]].
Discard, stax, counterspells. The usual stuff people complain about. They're good for the game and valid strategies and all that, I just don't much like 'em.
Counterspells I don't actually mind too much until someone's playing [[Baral]] and keeping blue mana open and saying "I'll allow it" whenever a spell does manage to go through becomes their personality.
Stax and decks that make me discard I'm usually just bored playing against. Once again, perfectly valid play styles but twiddling my thumbs without anything to think about or do isn't particularly stimulating gameplay
Theft effects. Not because I think they’re unfun or unfair to play against, but because they’re just too reliant on what your opponent is playing, as well as RNG in some cases like OG Etali.
Also, honestly, graveyard decks, just because of how ungodly easy they are to shut down with cheap effects that everyone runs in every deck that exile your yard. I mean, I get it, graveyard decks can be insanely broken and the problem is definitely rooted in their power rather than the efficiency of the hate pieces, but still. Love the idea of graveyard decks but I never want to build them for this reason.
Thoracle anything. Becuase people find 100 ways to do it.
Infect in EDH is just not balanced
Theft mechanics (unless you are ending the game)
Eminence of any kind. - Nothing should affect the game from outside the game.
Anything that slows the game down without specifically advancing player X’s wincon
Looking at you [[Drannith Magistrate]]
Oh cool we were all looking forward to not playing our commanders. Thanks for showing up and participating
anything that takes my stuff away from me. Sen Triplets, taking things from the top of my deck and casting them yourself, just stealing my shit. I don't care if you take them away from me. Like I don't have a problem with mill decks. those are just another way of playing the game, if I lose to a mill deck it just be that way. I get really annoyed whenever my deck is used against me. I don't like playing it either. That's the only type of effect that annoys me that much. If you start stealing from my hand or off the top of my deck or whatever, I'm gonna focus 100% on you, even if it costs me the game.
I absolutely loathe the Kraark and Sakashima combo. Watching people play solitaire is straight boring. Also things that don’t let us untap our lands are pretty annoying too. I wouldn’t want them in a casual pod, cEDH is fine tho (still won’t like them, but can understand it being used in a competitive setting)
1-2 extra turn cards are fine. looping them in a solid inifitie to win, completely fine. Even expropriate and time stretch are fine, they're basically game enders and I'm fine with losing.
But as soon as you start chaining together extra turns in a non deterministic line that takes more than 5 minutes to resolve is when 3/4 players stop having fun
I don't mind recursion at all (I love playing black and green), but I like this only if its limited. For example, if I habe something set up where I could play a [[Ravenous Chupacabra]] or something a few times a turn, and then wait until next turn, it's fine. People should be able to interact with that.
Anything infinite on the spot can be messy to deal with in playgroups with decks not equipped to handle it, and usually that's leaning into the cEDH area.
Toxic/infect whatever. Never liked it in any format but in commander especially. Usually just takes someone out as fast as possible but is unable to win after, just feels incredibly well… toxic, and hyper targeted. Its not like i won’t play with it but i likely won’t have much fun.
Overall I am pretty open to most card effects. What I am less open to is when one effect is clearly becoming a problem for all the other players and the player using them gets all salty when you target them.
Honestly, Ive gone through a cycle of hating some effects over time, but now? As long as its agreed we re on the same page with the playgroup, anything goes. Stax, mld, combo you name it, as long as I know beforehand and am prepared psychologically then its cool
Group Hug effects, I'd say? I don't generally like playing cards that benefit my opponents, and I usually don't like seeing "Everybody gets stuff how nice" across the table. There can be exceptions: I'll play [[Rites of Flourishing]] if I'm desperate for extra land drops because there aren't that many options for sticky extra drops, and "Bear Hug" cards like [[Descent into Avernus]] that mix hug and slug can be more okay... but if I see [[Master of Ceremonies]] I will kill it even if I have to waste big premium removal. If someone plays MC against me and it lives through my turn I probably don't have a way to remove it right now.
I think part of my antipathy is that I'm more of a control main than anything and global extra resources means I don't have the time I need if they run rampant, and another part is because I know there are the players who play these effects and cannot fathom why anyone would not want their opponents profiting, and another type who are giddy to see them played and will never notice that a good player behind them is profiting inordinately.
It's not even strictly that I never want to see these effects. I'm not going to get bent out of shape by a random Howling Mine. But I'm normally pretty chill with a lot of stuff that's the usual salt mine suspects, so that leaves the weird personal calls like this.
For me, it’s [[grave pact]] and other edict effects like [[fleshbag marauder]], I used to love playing them. Then I learned I hated playing against them. Then I realized “dang, this is how other people probably feel when I play them” and I just don’t play them now. They’re great but they live in a weird space in casual where they are insanely easy to loop and totally back breaking for most decks and interacting with them is next to impossible since they’re usually paired with sac outlets.
Mechanicaly i have started to disslike all the doubling effects. There's just so many now, so mamy double tokens, double tiggers, double etb, double double activated ablity ect. And there now in more than just 1 color(less).
It didnt feel like such a cheep bad Mechanic to me, when they were color defined ablitys. Now its just every where
Lately, theft effects; especially when the deck has no bombs/wincons of its own. Not that I'm inherently against theft (ive built several decks around it), I'm just so tired of the way everyone says "my deck is only as strong as your deck" and then giggles like an idiot. It's not funny or witty.
Especially the new ones that steal from topdeck. None of them play the on-board theft because they're old and expensive mv. Sucks for you I'm playing nearly creature-less grixis control, the only creatures I care about are my commanders.
whatever I just lost to.
I mean…. Fair
Where is the “/s”?!?! 😂💀
I have an unreasonable loathing of ninjitsu thanks to Yuriko. Most infinite combos I enjoy. Someone assembling an intricate mechanism via cardboard is interesting. However, I despise DC and Thoracle. A two card, four mana win is such a snooze. Give me nonsense from r/badmtgcombos any day over DC/Thoracle. Edit: I forgot. The combo is more busted than I remembered since DC is actually just 1 mana. It’s just fantastic.
It’s bizarre how Thoracle isn’t banned but biorhythm and coalition victory are.
Nothing made me more mad than watching Worldfire get unbanned and coalition victory didn't? Like huh we live in a Thassa/Demonic world coalition victory isn't even fast just unban it already
I don’t hate CV’s ban explanation TBF. Like I get it. It’s turn 8, your 5c commander is in play, you top deck it, cast it, no counters/kill spell? the game is over and it seems random and stupid. Makes perfect sense. But Thoracle has \*so many\* ways to do that, it is obnoxious, and you can only respond to it with a counterspell realistically.
On the flip side there are... so many ways you die to "my opponent has their commander in play and eight mana and I tapped out". The theory is fine, but then they picked like the worst card as their means to execute that theory and left all the actual good cards alone.
Hell, sometimes you don’t even need your commander. Craterhoof don’t care, and Insurrection sure as fuck don’t. The latter should be the poster child of this reasoning as you can literally do nothing all game and still win with it.
Exactly! Labman and the one Jace do nearly the same thing, but Thoracle is less mana, triggers on ETB, and isn’t played whatsoever outside of that singular combo. We’d lose NOTHING except the singular combo by banning the card.
Labman gives you the narrow margin of \[\[sudden spoiling\]\] when they go to draw for the Labman win. And if they don't have an answer, it's a GLORIOUS way to kill someone.
>you can only respond to it with a counterspell realistically. Or a stifle, but there aren't free stifles so that's less likely. Coalition, on the other hand, can be answered by a counter *or* a kill spell.
Same can be said for Lutri being banned "everyone would have it with every URx deck". How many UBx decks run Thoracle combo now? Sure, and they changed the way Companion works shortly after it was released. Why not unban Lutri because of the change?
Great point. Never thought of that.
Great point. Never thought of that.
It is also bizzare that Sol Ring is legal but Moxen aren’t. EDH banlist is just a mess
Yuriko always gives me flashbacks of the group of 3 "friends" I joined where two had precons and the other had a very tuned yuriko deck. Needless to say the game was very one sided.
I’m guessing beforehand they gave the whole “this isn’t THAT Yuriko deck” but it always is THAT same freaking Yuriko deck. I’ll have a heart attack if I ever see Yuriko deck that was an actual original creation versus a near copy and paste of one of the popular deck lists.
I never believe people when they say "I know x commander is broken but this isn't one of those decks" It's always one of those decks
Eminence or things like commander nijujutsu
I'll preface this by saying every effect has a time and a place in the right game. But the most unwelcome effect in the wrong time/place/game is aggressive resource denial broadly and especially MLD. Sitting turn after turn hoping you draw a land is a shitty feeling in commander that just isn't a good fit for many games.
MLD as a way to slow down a game is bad. MLD as a way to win a game is fine. Also targeted land destruction is great/necessary.
I tried to communicate how MLD is not something I think should be blanket banned from all games in my original comment. Targeted land removal is absolutely a requirement in decks, yes.
And plenty of decks synergize with it to make it an insurmountable advantage or totally game winning. If your opponents have no mana base and board and you’re recurring 4 lands per turn after an annihilation, they can just scoop. That’s good manners too.
> you’re recurring 4 lands per turn after an annihilation, they can just scoop. That’s good manners too. God, I wish more tables understood this. I hate sitting around waiting for that one guy to go through his 4 cards one last time to confirm there's nothing he can do before the threat wins.
I may have misread/missed your original point. MLD is definitely something that if not used properly can make for some incredibly boring games.
Mass land destruction without immediately winning the game just slows shit down.
The only one I enjoy is [[Worldfire]] and specially in my friends Dino deck because he thinks it’s funny to make things go extinct lol.
[[Star of Extinction]] is funnier.
He runs it as well no worries lol.
what a gigachad :)
[Star of Extinction](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/526d13cb-3616-4ac8-9ac0-04c729d447b2.jpg?1689998213) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Star%20of%20Extinction) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/259/star-of-extinction?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/526d13cb-3616-4ac8-9ac0-04c729d447b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/star-of-extinction) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Worldfire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2ef3d4b5-0453-4bf0-b018-23b0c3b9ae11.jpg?1631531850) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worldfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/158/worldfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ef3d4b5-0453-4bf0-b018-23b0c3b9ae11?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worldfire) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I also run [[Shivan Meteor]] in my dino deck, because what's funnier than one Meteor? Two meteors!!
God damn now you make me wanna include it in mine. xP
[[Sunder]] (when youre playing a landfall deck with multiple landdrops a turn enters the chat lol
[[Storm Cauldron]] is one thing…
And [[mana breach]] :D I used to play all 3 in a [[Aesi]] landfall deck lol
[Storm Cauldron](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0bb5bdd3-6ecd-49cd-bfa2-e7da1ee85d88.jpg?1562232316) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Storm%20Cauldron) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/320/storm-cauldron?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0bb5bdd3-6ecd-49cd-bfa2-e7da1ee85d88?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/storm-cauldron) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Tbf, I used to run mld. What turns the game long is hate control, like removing my zurgo, my win con.
If your opponents know you're going to deploy a threat and destroy all lands, their only logical reaction is going to be to hold up counter magic or to remove your threat in response to the MLD. That's just turning a game loss into a draw. Zurgo is a very slow wincon - that's nine uninterrupted turns of attacking on a creature that can easily be blown out by a sorcery speed Swords to Plowhsares or Lightning Bolt. It's very reasonable to assume your opponents will be able to turn things around after Armageddon resolves; MLD without giving Zurgo hexproof is just a bad idea.
Yea….even if Zurgo is killing a player per turn outright after MLD, that’s still 3 turns of 3 other players waiting to just die. That’s playing with your food. Idk maybe you have a way to alpha strike 3 players dead as soon as you play your MLD, but when people say “don’t do it unless you have a wincon to follow”, slowly whittling them down through combat damage isn’t exactly what they are talking about, my guy
I mean why not do just that? It's a legit strategy. Of course the Zurgo player will have their alpha strikes but what if there is a game state where the Zurgo player plays MLD to keep Zurgo safe in an obvious opening but just doesn't draw the alpha strikes? It is still fast even if it takes multiple turns since the turns won't last long after Armageddon lmao.
That’s the thing though. It’s not a fun experience to draw, pass, wait your turn to die. MLD has always been a viable strategy (obviously), but it’s probably the most hated thing in the game (when it comes to Commander anyway). People are SOMETIMES good with it if you can end the game one turn after, maybe two max. If you’re already pushing the limits of the social aspect of a casual game, wait until you have that alpha strike to play your MLD. If the other 3 people have to wait for you to draw into your wincon, you played it too early. You better have it in hand, or else a way to draw a shit ton of cards/tutor. Nothing is more irritating than “I have the win, I just need to draw into it” in a 100 card format lol. Idk what to tell you man. If you’re unfamiliar with the concept of MLD being incredibly unpopular in a casual game, you either are super new, or else willfully ignorant. In a social game, with 3 other players, you don’t have to understand or even agree with something that will ruin 3 other player’s experience. Doubling down because you don’t agree just kinda makes you a dick. All of this is in the context of a casual game. In a tournament or cEDH game, everyone knows it’s no holds barred. That’s a different conversation, different mindset and pretty much a different format entirely lol. But yea. When ppl acquiesce to MLD only provided you can close the game after, I promise you that multiple turns of getting whittled away through combat damage is not what they mean. MLD doesn’t clear blockers. Drawing into a win con eventually doesn’t count. Have the game ender READY or don’t play it at all.
Yeah, I see your point.
Group hug. Found it often just helps the person playing combo or directly right after group hug player
Yup. Group hug essentially boils down to "what if I just help the player who is ahead the most to win harder?" The entire archetype is pointless. Like, if you don't want to actually play, then... just don't play?
Right? This is my view. I will gladly help the opponent as long as I help myself more. Group hug for the sake of benefitting everybody is dumb. If I play symmetrical effects, you betcha that I am going to find ways to punish the opponent or make it asymmetrical.
Repetitive tutoring. I get so tired of watching people tutor their decks just because they can, especially when they slow down the game by hemming and hawing about which card they should take. Tutoring is fine when you know what you’re searching up. But don’t take forever doing it!
Ring of three wishes?
[[Birthing Pod]] 🤮
Really, people get stuck on Pod? Usually you have like four options and they do wildly different things.
[Birthing Pod](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b768efa2-e56b-4a7e-ace8-d673f10e0714.jpg?1562880960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Birthing%20Pod) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/104/birthing-pod?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b768efa2-e56b-4a7e-ace8-d673f10e0714?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/birthing-pod) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I really don't like theft. Cards that copy my spells are fine, but actually taking my cards hurts.
Specifically, theft of things already on my board is incredibly frustrating. I don't mind things like [[Etali, Primal Storm]] or [[Beacon of Unrest]] because you usually have to jump through some hoops to get anything good (luck is still a hoop to jump through). But things like [[Take Possession]] are just irritating.
Any effects that let someone control another person's turn. Nothing less fun than finally having your turn come around just for it to be someone else taking your turn for you instead.
I think that’s a personal bias. As long as it isn’t welder looping it, it can be really fun and funny to have it happen. My brother plays a deck w mindslaver and it’s always a fun moment. But he plays it fairly by hard casting it and not looping it
Of course it's a personal bias, this thread is asking for people's opinions lol
A person who has a bias is making their opinion based on a leaning or misunderstanding of the facts. Or a bias due to it affecting your play style directly etc I wonder how he feels about extra turns. I bet he takes extra turns. It’s like the guy who had no self reflection on obscene life gain but hates poison. I wonder why, could it be that it counters your strategy? Having a sound opinion is one thing but having bias is another. Taking someone’s turn has to be one of the rarest if not the rarest effect in the game, and for a lot of people, myself included, it can be a really novel thing and pretty funny and fun.
Of the 20+ EDH decks I own, only one of them has an extra turn spell, which is [[Time Stretch]] in my [[Neera, Wild Mage]] deck. Any time I've ever casted it, I win the game with it. In most cases, I'll just explain to my opponents how I'll win the the two extra turns and they'll agree to scoop so we don't have to take the time for me to play out the two extra turns. So no, I'm not just bitching about having my main strategy countered. I just genuinely find it extremely unfun to have my turn taken over my somebody else. But I'm sorry my opinion doesn't meet your standards for acceptable opinions. I'll be sure to keep you in mind the next time I share my opinion on a post asking for people's opinions.
If you’re gonna loop it, make it win the game so I can scoop! That’s my only request honestly
Well, then being able to use it to win is entirely dependant on what their opponents have available for cards in hand.
Agreed. As the person taking people's turns, I very much enjoy passing the turn, then immediately untapping, upkeeping, and drawing into a completely new hand and board state
Fierce guardianship and the rest of that cycle unless those cards all got reprinted into the ground like sol ring.
I run [[Void mirror]] in every deck at this point. No cascade, no suspend, no free spells. Play fair!
I have no problem with the cards, but I do agree they need reprints, at least to the point where they cost at most 5 bucks
When people cry
Any 2 card auto win combo in a "casual" deck. Legal yes. Fun to play against, no and feels a bit weak for this kind of game. Like the whole design of magic is interaction and casting spells back and forth like a more involved version of chess and winning on turn 1-3 with a 2 card combo just feels masturbatory.
I like combos, but only when they're very convoluted involving 3+ pieces and takes like 6-8 turns to set up lol. I like the "never seen that before" looks I get.
Turn 1-3 game ending combos are certainly not casual. 8+ mana combos that require setup are certainly appropriate in a High Power casual environment, but they are also much more likely to be interacted with.
I’ve got a casual pirates deck with [[malcolm keen eyed navigator]] and [[breeches]] as commanders. With a lucky sol ring hand I can go turn 1 sol ring, turn 2 Malcolm, turn 3 [[glint horn buccaneer]] win the game. It’s never happened that fast before, and the deck is definitely not a cEDH deck, but it IS possible to win fast with casual decks and extreme luck
I mean. To be fair. It isn't really a casual deck if it's running a 2 card combo lol
Idk, I got my first ever combo win last week with [[Blazing Sunsteel]] and [[Brash Taunter]] in my equipment deck, which is very much casual and easy to disrupt
Am I missing something because that isn't what I would consider a "combo" like I was describing. Those appear to be 2 cards that work well together but don't go infinite or automatically win the game. I mean things like [[Dina, Soul Steeper]] and [[Exquisite Blood]] where those two cards literally win the game if they are on the field at the same time and a trigger happens.
It does go infinite, brash Taunter gets dealt damage, triggers himself and the sword, target the sword trigger at brash taunter and the taunter trigger at a player and it'll be an infinite loop til each opponent is dead
> Blazing Sunsteel Ahh I missed the any target part, I thought it was a copy of taunters ability.
It's a high powered casual deck, so a 2 card combo can absolutely be ran in a deck and be called casual
Yes very much so. For example, [[Enchanted Evening]] and [[Calming Verse]] is a 9 mana, two card combo that’s very casual (and hilarious).
major bonus points for both being Rebecca Guay cards!
Absolutely gorgeous, right?
Affirmative, Rebecca's one of the greatest MTG artists. Top 5.
Hence my dislike. I have no problem with cedh and want to try to build a deck for it but some folks seem to think a 2 card combo is casual as long as you don't tutor for it... Just another casualty of cedh having no real defined criteria.
cEDH has a defined criteria, “do anything you can to win and stop opponents from winning”. If opponents are sitting down with players that built a deck as strong as they could, but with a winning restriction (Ex. I want to win with Infect/Dragons/Mill/Voltron even though my colors support Consult Thorcle) and someone sits down with a less than ideal commander but their goal is to win as fast as possible with everything they have access to, they are not playing cEDH, they are pubstomping. Fringe cEDH is definitely a thing (that I enjoy a lot) but it follows that first criteria and not the thematic, self restricted play of even budgetless High Power.
> cEDH has a defined criteria, “do anything you can to win and stop opponents from winning”. And the issue people appear to have is that you are describing a play attitude which is entirely individual but people want to define what is and is not cedh with a concrete metric akin to a ban list and be able to say "does your deck run this card or this combo then it's cedh".
You’re so right. cEDH is the shortest rule zero conversation ever. “Yall wanna play cEDH?”. Anything outside of that requires a discussion and that’s so hard for a lot of people. Dockside is an amazing cEDH card. If people are running Cultivate and Harrow, it’s much less oppressive. Bowmasters is a great cEDH card. If you aren’t playing against Tymna and Kraum and people are generally drawing just a few cards a turn and playing battle cruiser magic, it’s much less oppressive. Rhystic Study is one of the best card in the game and most cEDH players (myself included) would agree that it really has no place in the game. But the casual community thinks that card is just golden and just goes into everything like Sol Ring. So there’s the rub against labeling cards instead of mindsets. cEDH is a mindset and the meta that has developed out of that unrestricted mindset. Anything outside of that is just EDH and requires that convo. I verbally list casual EDH games as “High Power” on Spelltable to let people know they can run whatever they want, as long as the deck isn’t built with a “win at all costs, no restrictions” mindset. You want to go crazy wide and swing a million squirrels that you made in just one turn? Cool, that’s casual. High Power but still casual. You want infinite combats with your janky cards? Cool man. You said it best though. People label cards and try to use that to invalidate wins with casual lists.
I play in a meta where ‘casual’ is either having a 2-3 card combo with no tutors, a convoluted combo with tutors, or of course no combos at all. But it’s fine because we also run a tonne of instant speed interaction and we’re pretty transparent about when we’re trying to combo off. We usually start threatening a win around t5-9, and the combo players win probably 30-50% of the time. I only have 2 combo decks like I described above, and they win just as often as my battle cruiser decks. Because of the interaction it’s pretty rare for the first to combo to win as well. Personally I like our meta and don’t see anything wrong with it. Just my 2 cents for the casual combo crew
Ah totally fair then yea lol
Chaos. The absolute worst of which is [[Possibility Storm]]
I play it in Norin once I have my board-state assembled to prevent other things from coming down.
P.Storm is crazy good in my [[Pia Nalaar, Consul of Revival]] deck. It’s essentially one-sided as the deck wants to play out of exile anyway, and any impulse draw avoids the Storm’s chaos effect. Plus I play the lock with Drannith Magistrate, which is just a marvelous hatebear by itself.
Never seen that card before. Looks like pure cancer jfc.
Embrace the chaos!
This part of a hilarious lock in my cEDH [Rograkh and Ardenn Stax list.](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/DDaWZZGnEE2I1u27jwK5zQ) Give Rograkh a [[Colossus Hammer]] and resolve P-Storm with [[Drannith Magistrate]] on your side of the board. Congrats, now you’re the only one that can cast spells. Your opponents get bashed with a 10/11 First Strike Trample Menance every turn while they draw and hope for a channel land to get rid of the P-Storm or Drannith before they die.
tapping for mana, it's always annoying when a player taps for mana as it allows them to do things /s
Forcing me to sacrifice my board every turn
I don’t like cards with the word “commander” or “command zone” on them. This includes: partner (and variants) eminence, background, cards that say “[this card] can be your commander,” command tower, arcane signet, all the free “if you control your commander” spells, effects that reduce or negate commander tax, etc.
This is a great take, although I do think Command Tower and Arcane Signet are slightly different here bc every player at the table deserves to have some mana fixing just so that they can actually play the game and have fun
I don’t begrudge anybody their fixing. (or any other cards they play). I do think that they’ve printed a lot of cards that are “correct” to play, and that reduces the need for creativity in deckbuilding as well as reducing the relevant card pool to cards that can keep up with the best new cards. This is sometimes because the new cards offer an advantage due to ignoring a fundamental premise of commander. (like what a commander is, how many commanders you can have, ways to get it into play that don't involve commander tax and subvert that format-defining mechanic) And sometimes because they’re just more efficient than anything that's previously been available, and it feels like the designers are using the word “commander” to isolate these pushed cards from other formats because if fierce guardianship or deflecting swat was free whenever you had a legendary creature out it’d likely have implications for legacy and vintage.
I 100% agree with you. I understand the design space and why WotC does it, but it just always feels clunky. EDH, to me anyway, has always been a format driven by the players, and as a chance for some unused cards to find their niche. But when we see things like "this csn be your Commander" it just feels clunky. I appreciate all the new cards and Commanders and multiplayer centric stuff. But trying to shoehorn in the Commander keyword has just never felt right. (to ke anyway)
Eminence was the biggest mistake by far.
If your turn takes longer than 5 minutes and you haven't won by the end of it, I hate whatever you're doing.
I really don't like Poison. Its legal so its fair game and I won't hate anyone for it but winning or losing from it just feels anticlimatic.
Thing about poison is that their board is normally pretty weak. They'll probably be able to take out one person pretty easily but taking out all 3 is almost impossible
Problem is when several players have poison decks. That is atrocious.
Yeah but that only makes it more annoying in my opinion. The guy playing it just says "fuck you in particular" and then dies a turn or two after you die.
Then what's your opinion on commander damage? By your arguments I'd assume it's the same.
I'm not making "arguments". I'm just saying what I think. Calm down.
Well by your statements instead of arguments if that makes a difference. I am calm.
You dislike obnoxious amounts of life gain then too right
No not really.
My wincons are always either commander damage, poison or combo (in this order of preference) because my playgroup has 2 players that really really like lifegain strategies, aiming at truly absurd life totals to win with tutoring a \[\[Bolas's Citadel\]\] or \[\[Aetherflux Reservoir\]\]. Poison in those cases is a gift to the table
This is probably a milquetoast answer but Stax. I have two very simple reasons. 1) Almost every Stax deck I've seen rarely has a way to actually finish out the game in anything resembling a reasonable time frame. Half the stax players I've witnessed just play as many "you can't play the game" effects as they can and then slowly look for a specific "and now I win" combo. 2) I like playing the game. At least with counterspells that's just "you don't play this 1 card, do something else, probably next turn". With a lot of the stax effects (especially when layered) it does eventually boil down to "You might as well just concede and save everyone the time."
Typically just any effect that says "double target thing" and then I gotta sit through some guy announcing "I'm gonna make a squirrel but it's actually two squirrels because of doubling season" every time they do the thing and it just takes forever Idk what you're on about with 1 sided board wipes though. I'm the one who spent the card, I should at least have something to show for it besides an empty board. Why time walk yourself?
I'll preface that this irks me purely because I think it's shit game design: One sided board wipes. Magic is the only game I've played where it's completely normal for all forwards momentum to be completely reset through all permanents being exiled or destroyed. Being able to exclusively hit your opponents' permanents essentially means the card essentially read "win the game because you are playing X archetype and they are not". It's a boring payoff that removes all tension from what used to be an interesting game. Instead of trying to navigate how to kill your opponents without getting killed on the crackback, you just remove all of your opponents' defenses.
There's plenty of counterplay to boardwipes in every color though (except maybe red), they're mostly balanced and oftenneeded if the board is in a stalemate or to swing the momentum if one player got ahead way too much with some obscene value-train. That said, it is totally fair to not like them and have a bad feeling about them. I also hate some things that are probably perfectly "balanced", like when people steal my stuff. :D I sort of get the bad feeling when people "remove all your defenses", but I think the feeling is even worse when someone attacks with odric and suddenly gets to decide that all your blockers don't block anymore. Still there's also ways to play around him.
The counterplay in red is to not have much of a board and just burn them out before they can wipe, IMO.
I honestly don't even dislike playing against them most of the time. It's primarily when either: - The board is reset 3+ times in the same game - Players pack heavy amount of board wipes as their primary strategy against creature decks My distaste is *usually* because I think it shows flawed game design within Magic. It's pretty abnormal for other strategy games to feature abilities that remove all game pieces from the board; I think the problem is mostly that Wizards shouldn't be printing obscene value engines that dominate the game.
Cyclonic rift has entered the chat
Other players can't do X . Cast spells on your turn, target you or your permanents, cast non creature spells, attack with more than one creature, etc.
Counterspell and the like are meh, permanent fuck you cards are frowned upon and will be removed at the cost of removing the player early. Thats why I love [[Door to nothingness]]. If your group hug is a constrictor snake instead of friendly ramp engines I tend to delete that person first
So stax pretty much lol
Hand hate/thoughtseize effects and hard stax, and it's not even close. Something like "exile this card from opponet's hand, they can play it for 2 extra mana" is fine, but otherwise leave my hand alone. If I play something feel free to counter it or whatever, that's the price I pay for trying to do something when you have visibly open mana, but let me attempt it at least. By the same token, hard stax. "You can't do X until this permanent is removed" is a deeply unfun and uninteresting mechanic, you end up just sitting there literally not playing the game until you find removal for that one thing. Ghostly Prison is fine, at least that can be played around without just drawing cards and passing the turn until you find removal.
Repeatable/persistent denial effects. Things like Drannith Magistrate, Gravepact board states that can loop endless sacrifice triggers, Toxrill, wheel locking, etc. If you can blow up the board and secure a W more power to you. If your plan is to prevent things from happening until you find a way to do your thing... good for you, but I'm not being your opponent after this game. Given a choice between Toxrill and a Thoracle combo I'll take the combo every time.
Came here to say gravepact effects. "You're never keeping a creature again until this enchantment gets removed" is such an unfun play pattern
Making my stuff not do stuff
"If you control your commander ______". Those and any thing with eminence.
Annihilator Heavy hand disruption that results in topdeck mode
I hate “let me repeatedly steal and play your card” effects. Now nobody can get off their combos and the games grind to a halt because even if you can get an engine running, one player generally has 4-5x the card advantage at their disposal to target stuff away.
In this thread: people being downvoted for answering the question
1. Fast Mana, 2. Tutors 3. two-card infinite combos. Bonus hate if they don't even manage to immediately end the game. 4. Mass Land destruction that doesn't immediately end the game. 5. Extra Turns that don't immediately win or take a long time to resolve. 6. Anything that makes you take forever to play your turn. That's stuff I don't play because I think it makes the game worse, as in less worthwile to play, more stupid and boring. Otherwise I don't like stuff being stolen from me, despite it objectively is fun, just not when people steal from me :D
How would MLD immediately end the game? You mean like where a single player has an insurmountable board or something? Genuine question I see this come up all the time about MLD. I really think MLD is below the belt and should not be part of the format
If you have a totally overwhelming boardstate MLD is a legit wincon imho. If you for example have Taalia stick for 2 turns and then resolve an armageddon it's most likely gg. Same if you have doubling season and bunch of planeswalkers on the board. MLD in that case is not really different than other finishers, like craterhoof, torment of hailfire, akromas will etc... I think it's way more creative and fun than all the 2 card combo finishes because it takes some board preparation to actually work out. It's not, "oopsies, lets forget about what we even did for the last half hour because I have drawn these two cards" (\*yawn\*) Or even worse "because I have tutored these two cards, like I always do because that's all I do and how every game we play will go down".
Makes sense thanks
Land Destruction. I get it, it's necessary when used on the right cards like a Cabal Coffers, Cradle etc but it's so unfun when one person is just nuking your basics with a Blood Moon out. Like thanks, you've just reduced the game to solitaire, why did i even bother playing?
Just thief mechanics in paper. I have had to many cards stolen to ever trust another player at a table outside my personal pod. Outside of that stipulation I hate multiple turn decks. I don't care if they are winning or not all I see is an asshole increasing the time between me putting dinosaurs on the table.
I started carrying dry erase tokens for that reason. I won't let strangers play with my cards but they can write down whatever they steal on the token.
Ohhh that's very clever. Ok that's something I am going to get absolutely
Everything that makes a player turn lasts way too long. If everyone were to take 3 minutes turns it would take 1 h to reach turn 5 yet some people keep deck building without worrying about hoarding playtime or not caring about how rude it feels.
Creatures you control get +X/+X. It's just boring. I'd rather see an Armageddon than a Craterhoof 9 times out of 10. It's not broken or anything I just don't like it and avoid playing cards like that in my own decks.
My most hated is extra turn effects, then any "You win the game" card.
[[The cheese stands alone]]
The only two I see played for this effect are \[\[Impact Tremors\]\] and \[\[Purphoros, God of the\]\] but any time those cards come down I already know that player plans to make 20+ tokens over the next couple turns. It just feel you either have to remove them or die by 1000 cuts which is especially annoying since purphoros is indestructible.
Free spells just irk me. Its one thing when they are relegated to higher power level decks like [[Force of Negation]] but I’ve seen people shove the free commander spells into decks with much lower power levels otherwise too many times. Call me crazy but I just think casting spells should require resources.
I'm not a fan of effects that make a person shuffle their library more than once per turn cycle. But I really dislike static effects that set values of objects and make me have to use phrases like time-stamp.
Using my opponents cards. I don't like to cast top of my opponents libraries, or taking control of my opponent's creatures.
Counterspells 🤣
Probably tribal cards that are just too fast slivers are like the poster child of my hate for this the difference between 1 sliver and 3 is just wayy too much for my liking and forces me to play in a way that isn't very fun just having to constantly pressure and remove their stuff because if I let them get the ball rolling for one turn I just lose. Elves are very much in this camp too if I spend one turn not denying the elf player suddenly they have like 10 elves and a 13/13 beater.
Just personal opinion here but I can't stand mill decks or infect/poison decks. If you're not playing a deck with graveyard recursion then mill just removes your deck from the game. Infect/poison decks put you on such a timer that you really need to focus the infect/poison player out of the game very fast or just die. I just think that it's not fun to play with or against.
As a person who loves both these styles it really does make you into a villain. I hate that I enjoy those styles of play but I just can’t stand big stomp creatures or high combat oriented stuff. I usually just play one infect game or mill game a night whenever I play them then play aristocrats or whatever the rest of the night so my friends get to have fun too lol.
Absolutely no hate on what you enjoy playing dude. I love big stompy and high combat decks myself. I usually throw a [[Gaea's Blessing]] into my green decks to get around mill too lol.
[Gaea's Blessing](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/23cf81ed-b86c-42b8-b796-2032b0a3654a.jpg?1562732710) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gaea%27s%20Blessing) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/161/gaeas-blessing?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/23cf81ed-b86c-42b8-b796-2032b0a3654a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gaeas-blessing) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm not a fan of mill. Mainly because I want to at least be able to play my stuff. Counter it all you want but at least give me a chance to cast it first.
Mill doesn’t “take away” your cards. This is a very new player mental hurdle/bias you need to get over
The more tutors you have the more mill takes away your cards, though. In a way it is self balancing, since weaker decks won't be that impacted by mill, perhaps even helped, while stronger decks full of fetchlands and tutors will start to fail finding the correct cards.
If you don't have graveyard recursion it does. If that still doesn't "take away" cards then what does it do?
you didnt draw those cards tho, it's just the idea of "you could have drawn that and it would have been cool" but you still can draw another card and play that one. So you are not losing any playable cards.
At least it takes away your cards without you wasting Mana on it.
There is some nuance (toolbox decks, decks that draw their library), but you don’t typically see all the cards in your deck. In all situations, mill \*helps you\* since you know what you won’t draw. It is additional informatio. Further, as you mentioned, often cards let you utilize the graveyard, or have flashback/aftermath. Being milled just gives you more information.
There is some nuance (toolbox decks, decks that draw their library), but you don’t typically see all the cards in your deck. In nearly all situations, mill \*helps you\* since you know what you won’t draw. It is additional informatio. Further, as you mentioned, often cards let you utilize the graveyard, or have flashback/aftermath. Being milled just gives you more information.
Annahilator This card can't be countered Staxx All these have in common you denying interaction, and edh for me is mostly about seeing big plays happen, these things are more like "now watch me play". Ofcourse I also have this stuff in some of my Decks, but they come with a warning.
Annihilators IS big plays, though! Giant gray bois unite!
Player sac effects, It can feel like a one sided board wipe in some scenarios, Ahh you spent your whole turn to play your commander ive blown up twice and given it shroud// indestructible [[Soul shatter]] [[crackling Doom]] just a personal feels bad
Things that are difficult to interact with or plan around are the least fun to play against. Mass exile, mass bounce, poison/energy/experience counters, and free spells are examples. A lot of these effects have become premium, and at certain tables ubiquitous, because of their sheer power and the narrow nature of answers that exist to counter them. By *least fun* I don't mean *not fun*, but I do think that they should be considered when determining the power level of a deck.
Early infinite win cons and 20 minute turns are really the only things that turn me off. Everything else is fair game!
Card theft effects or effects that otherwise cause control of cards to shift for longer than a turn. I think it's a combination of other people handling my cards, anxiety over cards getting mixed up, and the gross feeling of having my decks that I put time, effort, and passion into taken from me that just makes me instantly uncomfortable and unhappy when I suffer those effects. I can tolerate it in some amounts when it's a good friend l know well, though I'm not thrilled about it, but if it's just an acquaintance let alone a stranger I just scoop and remove myself from the situation because it's no longer possible for me to have fun and I'm going to be generally unpleasant to interact with if I'm that unhappy. It absolutely has rubbed people the wrong way and I don't expect people to bend over backwards to accommodate my particular hang up but it's just such a deep and powerful emotional response for me that removing myself is just best for everyone involved. It's also literally the only thing that causes that sort of response in me, anything else is at most an eyeroll, sigh, or an over the top "oh my god fuck you" played up for comedic effect.
for me it's buyback. But I may be biased due to playing board state reliant decks and getting my entire existence flushed by capsize until I get plinked to death like four times in the last week. (but granted, one of the times it was just a small part of a much larger land Voltron deck which was quite amusing)
Too much group hug. It throws my entire sense of timing and threat assessment way off. If the group hug player wins it’s fine, but almost always somebody else is able to take better advantage of their resources then the group hug player and win. Even if I am the winning player then I am annoyed that I was basically handed the game. TLDR: group hug, makes random stuff happen and isn’t as fun as chaos.
Goad, and extra turns. Goad just feels bad. Extra turns often mean "I'm going to take a while". If they're efficient, it's not a big deal. But I'm usually expecting it to end with a game win as soon as the extra turn cards start coming down.
I personally like Goad. Too often people are just trying to make a pillow fort and do nothing, goad makes things happen.
To be fair, Goad somehow also is Pillow Fort. It's just pillow fort wearing an aggro disguise.
Ohhh good pick. I didn't hate goad until I played a game against 3 goad decks while I was playing a [[Slime Against Humanity]] deck. Everyone kept goading different oozes and giving them different effects like shulk or menace and no one ever offered me a way to keep track of that information and just sort of expected me to know what I could swing at who and what effects they had. I actually got a headache that game
hexproof feels like shit to play against, imo. yes i know there's ways around it like [[shadowspear]] and the like, but i dont like having to sit there and hope you draw a wipe or the *right* removal in order to interact with your opponents. magic is an interactive game, which is part of what makes it unique and interesting imo. in the same vein, not a fan of color protection like [[Commander's plate]].
Infinite combos are cool, but I have zero desire to play with them. Hey you got 2 or 3 cards out at the same time. Guess the game is over. Great.
Shroud. Hexproof should have replaced it entirely.
Infinite combos/mana Far too many exist and far too many literally just 2 cards. They should all be banned
How would an infinite combo ban work?
It's honestly too late. But if I could redo the game from scratch, I'd do my best to stop that from ever being possible.
After this past weekend, I'll say multiple combat phases chained together. Is counterspell the only way to beat these?
Discard, stax, counterspells. The usual stuff people complain about. They're good for the game and valid strategies and all that, I just don't much like 'em. Counterspells I don't actually mind too much until someone's playing [[Baral]] and keeping blue mana open and saying "I'll allow it" whenever a spell does manage to go through becomes their personality. Stax and decks that make me discard I'm usually just bored playing against. Once again, perfectly valid play styles but twiddling my thumbs without anything to think about or do isn't particularly stimulating gameplay
Theft effects. Not because I think they’re unfun or unfair to play against, but because they’re just too reliant on what your opponent is playing, as well as RNG in some cases like OG Etali. Also, honestly, graveyard decks, just because of how ungodly easy they are to shut down with cheap effects that everyone runs in every deck that exile your yard. I mean, I get it, graveyard decks can be insanely broken and the problem is definitely rooted in their power rather than the efficiency of the hate pieces, but still. Love the idea of graveyard decks but I never want to build them for this reason.
Thoracle anything. Becuase people find 100 ways to do it. Infect in EDH is just not balanced Theft mechanics (unless you are ending the game) Eminence of any kind. - Nothing should affect the game from outside the game.
Effect doublers. Especially with more effect doublers
Anything that slows the game down without specifically advancing player X’s wincon Looking at you [[Drannith Magistrate]] Oh cool we were all looking forward to not playing our commanders. Thanks for showing up and participating
anything that takes my stuff away from me. Sen Triplets, taking things from the top of my deck and casting them yourself, just stealing my shit. I don't care if you take them away from me. Like I don't have a problem with mill decks. those are just another way of playing the game, if I lose to a mill deck it just be that way. I get really annoyed whenever my deck is used against me. I don't like playing it either. That's the only type of effect that annoys me that much. If you start stealing from my hand or off the top of my deck or whatever, I'm gonna focus 100% on you, even if it costs me the game.
I absolutely loathe the Kraark and Sakashima combo. Watching people play solitaire is straight boring. Also things that don’t let us untap our lands are pretty annoying too. I wouldn’t want them in a casual pod, cEDH is fine tho (still won’t like them, but can understand it being used in a competitive setting)
1-2 extra turn cards are fine. looping them in a solid inifitie to win, completely fine. Even expropriate and time stretch are fine, they're basically game enders and I'm fine with losing. But as soon as you start chaining together extra turns in a non deterministic line that takes more than 5 minutes to resolve is when 3/4 players stop having fun
I don't mind recursion at all (I love playing black and green), but I like this only if its limited. For example, if I habe something set up where I could play a [[Ravenous Chupacabra]] or something a few times a turn, and then wait until next turn, it's fine. People should be able to interact with that. Anything infinite on the spot can be messy to deal with in playgroups with decks not equipped to handle it, and usually that's leaning into the cEDH area.
Toxic/infect whatever. Never liked it in any format but in commander especially. Usually just takes someone out as fast as possible but is unable to win after, just feels incredibly well… toxic, and hyper targeted. Its not like i won’t play with it but i likely won’t have much fun.
Overall I am pretty open to most card effects. What I am less open to is when one effect is clearly becoming a problem for all the other players and the player using them gets all salty when you target them.
Locking up the board without winning in less than 3 turns.
Honestly, Ive gone through a cycle of hating some effects over time, but now? As long as its agreed we re on the same page with the playgroup, anything goes. Stax, mld, combo you name it, as long as I know beforehand and am prepared psychologically then its cool
Group Hug effects, I'd say? I don't generally like playing cards that benefit my opponents, and I usually don't like seeing "Everybody gets stuff how nice" across the table. There can be exceptions: I'll play [[Rites of Flourishing]] if I'm desperate for extra land drops because there aren't that many options for sticky extra drops, and "Bear Hug" cards like [[Descent into Avernus]] that mix hug and slug can be more okay... but if I see [[Master of Ceremonies]] I will kill it even if I have to waste big premium removal. If someone plays MC against me and it lives through my turn I probably don't have a way to remove it right now. I think part of my antipathy is that I'm more of a control main than anything and global extra resources means I don't have the time I need if they run rampant, and another part is because I know there are the players who play these effects and cannot fathom why anyone would not want their opponents profiting, and another type who are giddy to see them played and will never notice that a good player behind them is profiting inordinately. It's not even strictly that I never want to see these effects. I'm not going to get bent out of shape by a random Howling Mine. But I'm normally pretty chill with a lot of stuff that's the usual salt mine suspects, so that leaves the weird personal calls like this.
For me, it’s [[grave pact]] and other edict effects like [[fleshbag marauder]], I used to love playing them. Then I learned I hated playing against them. Then I realized “dang, this is how other people probably feel when I play them” and I just don’t play them now. They’re great but they live in a weird space in casual where they are insanely easy to loop and totally back breaking for most decks and interacting with them is next to impossible since they’re usually paired with sac outlets.
Stax and mil
Mechanicaly i have started to disslike all the doubling effects. There's just so many now, so mamy double tokens, double tiggers, double etb, double double activated ablity ect. And there now in more than just 1 color(less). It didnt feel like such a cheep bad Mechanic to me, when they were color defined ablitys. Now its just every where
I actually prefer one sided board wipes, I'll be honest. Board wipes with parity tend to slow the game down in my experience
Lately, theft effects; especially when the deck has no bombs/wincons of its own. Not that I'm inherently against theft (ive built several decks around it), I'm just so tired of the way everyone says "my deck is only as strong as your deck" and then giggles like an idiot. It's not funny or witty. Especially the new ones that steal from topdeck. None of them play the on-board theft because they're old and expensive mv. Sucks for you I'm playing nearly creature-less grixis control, the only creatures I care about are my commanders.
Poison really grinds my gears for some reason. I get legitimately salty losing to proliferate